IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:05:56] <mfbot>
[[implied-hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implied-hcard&diff=0&oldid=15594 * Up3R73 * (-1)
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- [02:55:43] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
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- [03:08:58] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [03:15:06] <bewest>
/info newest
- [03:15:08] <bewest>
gah
- [03:15:39] * jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net) Quit ("ciao")
- [03:36:14] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner&diff=0&oldid=15595 * Tantek * (+24) added upcoming URL
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- [03:56:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [04:06:46] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Up3R73" with an expiry time of infinite: bot spam/vandal
- [04:06:48] <mfbot>
[[plazes-syntax]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plazes-syntax&diff=0&oldid=15596 * Tantek * (+2348) Reverted edit of VdcT21, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [04:06:54] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:VdcT21" with an expiry time of infinite: bot spam/vandal
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- [06:49:21] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner&diff=0&oldid=15597 * LarryHalff * (+35) Who -
- [06:50:07] <mfbot>
[[User:LarryHalff]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:LarryHalff * LarryHalff * (+43)
- [06:50:13] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner&diff=0&oldid=15598 * Tantek * (+42) top level headings are teh b0mb
- [06:55:44] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner&diff=0&oldid=15599 * Tantek * (+2)
- [06:56:05] <mfbot>
[[events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-04-18-web-2-expo-dinner&diff=0&oldid=15600 * Tantek * (+7)
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- [07:43:45] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:00:43] <mfbot>
[[Talk:WikiNode]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:WikiNode&diff=0&oldid=15601 * PybM8z * (-91)
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- [08:48:10] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [08:57:42] <mfbot>
[[Talk:WikiNode]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:WikiNode&diff=0&oldid=15602 * Tantek * (+91) Reverted edit of PybM8z, changed back to last version by Brian
- [08:58:02] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:PybM8z" with an expiry time of infinite: bot spam/vandal
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- [09:06:34] <mfbot>
[[Talk:WikiNode]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:WikiNode&diff=0&oldid=15603 * GduQyn * (-91)
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- [09:31:09] <jibot>
Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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- [11:04:35] <jibot>
davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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- [11:04:51] <jibot>
AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
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- [11:41:54] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [13:07:00] <mfbot>
[[User talk:LarryHalff]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:LarryHalff * AndyMabbett * (+71) Welcome!
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- [13:51:09] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [14:00:00] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [14:12:44] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [14:16:13] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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- [15:04:27] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [16:40:55] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
- [16:40:55] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [17:04:13] <jibot>
bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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- [18:52:56] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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- [20:00:55] <jibot>
bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
- [20:03:57] <mfbot>
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=15604 * Victor * (+123) New Examples -
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- [20:58:01] <jibot>
woodss is Steven Woods, from Newcastle, UK (GMT 0000). His personal site is http://www.swoo.co.uk/ and Steven Woods, http://www.swoo.co.uk - He is situated in Newcastle, UK (GMT 0000).
- [21:00:44] * Loosive is now known as Mr_Elusive
- [21:05:01] <codecks>
Hello everybody,I have a question. I want to display information about some people on my website. I want a picture, and next to that picture some info about that person (name, location,...). I'm wondering, semantically speaking, what are the best tags to use. It's a list of persons, but I also have the feeling it is tabular data. If somebody can point me out... I know it's a bit off-topic in here, but if someone knows a go
- [21:05:01] <codecks>
od place for such a question (irc, forum), just shout :-)
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- [21:09:03] <bewest>
codecks: is there anything else that gives you the feeling it's tabular?
- [21:09:35] <bewest>
codecks: it sounds to me like you want things to show up next to each other, but that doesn't always indicate tabular data
- [21:11:13] <codecks>
I want to show "picture - information" on each line about people
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- [21:13:17] <codecks>
but how can I code this in xhtml, knowing I want it to use correct semantic tags
- [21:14:08] <codecks>
I could use div, but that's not very semantic
- [21:14:35] <bewest>
nothing wrong with div is nothing else does what you want
- [21:15:29] <bewest>
do you mean something like:
- [21:15:29] <bewest>
[picture] [info]
- [21:15:29] <bewest>
[picture] [info]...?
- [21:15:39] <codecks>
yep thats it
- [21:15:53] <bewest>
yeah, if it were me I'd use a list of hcards
- [21:16:01] <bewest>
each <li> would be a vcard
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- [21:16:33] <bewest>
and inside that, I'd use <img> and perhaps a div to contain the info
- [21:17:17] <codecks>
can I embed div into li ? Is this correct xhtml1.1
- [21:21:06] <bewest>
sure
- [21:21:17] <bewest>
why not use html 4.01?
- [21:22:03] <bewest>
html 4 is more popular
- [21:22:17] <codecks>
yeah right :)
- [21:24:04] * veeliam (n=veeliam@207.111.252.10) has joined #microformats
- [21:24:59] <bewest>
is there some specific reason you decided to use xhtml?
- [21:25:05] <codecks>
just want to comply with the web standards, like we all do
- [21:25:13] <bewest>
html 4 is a web standard too
- [21:25:26] <bewest>
and you are likely to get more consistent results with html 4
- [21:25:46] <bewest>
eg, more standardized results
- [21:26:05] <veeliam>
html 4 ought to be seen as more standard than the xhtml spec.
- [21:26:06] <codecks>
how do you mean, do you have an example ?
- [21:26:30] <bewest>
sure, there are way more pages authored in html 4 than in xhtml
- [21:26:36] <bewest>
and more user agents know about html 4
- [21:26:59] <bewest>
and the current trend in web standards communities is to keep working on html 4
- [21:27:09] <veeliam>
and with html 4 you really are keeping it simple for the whole development team
- [21:27:28] <codecks>
because, it's there since ages now, but aren't many web guru's recommending to use xhtml
- [21:27:38] <bewest>
not really
- [21:27:53] <bewest>
in fact, the upper eschelon of web gurus are recommending html 4
- [21:28:34] <codecks>
lol, gimme some names
- [21:28:35] <bewest>
codecks: http://www.hixie.ch/advocacy/xhtml
- [21:28:39] <bewest>
ian hixie
- [21:28:58] <Hixie>
ian hickson, not ian hixie! :-P
- [21:29:01] <bewest>
most people in this channel would probably recommend html over xhtml
- [21:29:03] <bewest>
sorry!!!
- [21:29:29] <bewest>
codecks: most people in #web would probably recommend html 4 as well
- [21:29:38] <codecks>
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">
- [21:29:46] <codecks>
found on technorati ;-)
- [21:30:08] <bewest>
they may have a reason, which is why I asked you if you had one in mind
- [21:30:45] <bewest>
I'd bet technorati would switch to html5 at some point
- [21:30:55] <bewest>
or they may have a bad reason
- [21:30:57] <bewest>
who knows
- [21:31:06] <codecks>
separation of content and presentation is one reason
- [21:31:14] <bewest>
anyway, my advice is that if you want consistent results, use html4
- [21:31:31] <codecks>
what do u mean with consistent results ?
- [21:31:51] <bewest>
xhtml doesn't separate content and presentation any more than html4
- [21:32:30] <bewest>
my last link explains something about consistency
- [21:33:00] <bewest>
but basically it means if you want more user agents to understand more of your mark up more similarly, you are behooved to use html 4
- [21:33:52] <bewest>
http://www.webdevout.net/doctype-switching
- [21:33:57] <codecks>
yeah, older user agents, wich are disapearing more and more
- [21:34:08] * jdandrea (n=jdandrea@ool-44c0a1fe.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:34:22] <bewest>
you want the row with the fewest Q's and most S's
- [21:34:36] <bewest>
disappearing?
- [21:35:39] <codecks>
" you want the row with the fewest Q's and most S's ?" I don't understand that ?
- [21:35:46] <bewest>
did you look at that link?
- [21:35:49] <bewest>
there is a table with rows
- [21:36:09] <bewest>
each row refers to particular way of serving content + the format of the content
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- [21:37:29] <bewest>
codecks: anyway, I suggest you make a list of the benefits you think you may get from using xhtml and check that list to see if they hold true
- [21:37:53] <codecks>
uhu, intresting, but still, it's strange to have that conversation in this channel ?
- [21:38:24] <bewest>
it is?
- [21:38:42] <bewest>
this is a group primarily concerned with publishing on the web using html
- [21:38:57] <bewest>
everything we do is html-infused and inspired
- [21:39:28] <bewest>
you could put the same question to #web and probably #html if you like :-) feel free to get second opinions
- [21:42:18] <codecks>
let me explain, I'm kinda new to all that standards stuff, so, I read books about it, try to get some infos on the net, everybody is saying it's going to save the web from bad markup, bad build sites and all that stuff, and than you tell me that, strange. But maybe I don't get the global idea. And yeah, i'm going to get some second opinions.
- [21:42:36] <codecks>
:-)
- [21:43:10] <bewest>
oh, then perhaps a very brief history of the web would help then?
- [21:43:18] <bewest>
phase 1: the web was created
- [21:43:48] <bewest>
phase 2: lots of people created web pages, today most web pages are either html 4 or something older than html 4
- [21:44:12] <bewest>
phase 3: in response to "bad markup", some new standards were created to "fix" the bad markup (xhtml)
- [21:44:20] <bewest>
phase 4: no one used it
- [21:44:24] <veeliam>
codecks, here is the biggest thing you have to remember when choosing XHTML and standards: if you want to serve a page, a site, an application to any browser as XHTML you really ought to serve it up with the correct MIME type
- [21:44:50] <bada->
the X facination continues
- [21:45:00] <bewest>
phase 5: now we're working on fixing it by slowly improving html4 at a rate slow enough for the web to evolve with it
- [21:45:02] <veeliam>
if you want to be all standardista about the standards
- [21:45:06] <bewest>
that brings us to now
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- [21:45:53] <bewest>
that's a bit of an oversimplification, of course...
- [21:46:28] <veeliam>
then you're going to have to deal with Content-Negotiation becasue something about WIN IE1,2,3,4,5,6,7, etc chokes on the application/xhtml+xml MIME type
- [21:46:37] * ajturner (n=ajturner@208.194.81.131) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
- [21:47:44] <veeliam>
technorati uses XHTML 1.0 Strict because they have other things to deal with than serving up the food right.
- [21:47:56] <bewest>
(and IE7 is brand new... it's not going away)
- [21:48:40] <veeliam>
bewest, yep.
- [21:48:53] <codecks>
ok, and what is that problem exactly than, when i test it here, I have no problems with IE7
- [21:49:25] <veeliam>
so, codecks, if you want to get all up in the standards, Keep It Simple. Don't spin your wheels where you don't need to.
- [21:49:37] <bewest>
codecks: what is the content-type header you are sending?
- [21:49:57] <bewest>
codecks: not all errors on the web are visible
- [21:50:19] <bewest>
codecks: that's why so much bad content exists, currently, on the web.. because authors tested in the browser and figured since everything looks ok, it must be
- [21:50:34] <veeliam>
codecks, read this: http://juicystudio.com/article/content-negotiation.php
- [21:51:04] <veeliam>
o, and then go read this: http://www.w3.org/2003/01/xhtml-mimetype/content-negotiation
- [21:51:19] <codecks>
will do :)
- [21:51:25] <tantek>
you can serve compatible XHTML 1.0 per Appendix C as text/html no problem.
- [21:51:49] <veeliam>
and then when you're ready for all that, then write your apps in XHTML 1.whatever
- [21:51:58] <tantek>
and I choose XHTML 1.0 over HTML4 because it affords itself to easier consumption by more tools (read: well formed XML = people can easily XSLT it)
- [21:52:35] <tantek>
but that's about the only real advantage - if you don't care about easier transformability, then HTML 4.01 Strict is just as good.
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- [21:53:49] <veeliam>
or, codecks, you can listen to tantek. he wrote some of those specs, somewhere out there.
- [21:54:15] <bewest>
yeah, consumption by xslt is a good reason
- [21:54:40] <tantek>
and for me, that's sufficient, especially when you consider that there are microformats parsing/extraction tools that use XSLT
- [21:54:43] <codecks>
and what about all those people preaching (i hope u understand) for xhtml these days ? Is it all bullshit into your eyes ?
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- [21:55:02] <bewest>
I don't know many people preaching xhtml
- [21:55:24] <bewest>
tantek: sufficient for new authors as well, you feel?
- [21:55:26] <tantek>
codecks, XHTML 1.0 Strict and HTML 4 Strict are essentially equivalent, except XHTML permits easier consumption by XML parsers (like XSLT), that's about it
- [21:56:10] <tantek>
stay away from XHTML 1.1 or later versions as those are problematic (to serve with "the right" mimetypes, in browsers, in compatibility with HTML4 expectations etc.)
- [21:56:37] <codecks>
so in the end, it's going to disappear ?
- [21:56:46] <tantek>
either way (XHTML 1.0 Strict or HTML 4.01 Strict), I expect to see a migration path with whatwg work (XHTML 5, HTML 5)
- [21:56:53] <tantek>
codecks, what's going to disappear?
- [21:57:50] <codecks>
never mind, I'm a bit confused from that conversation (really) It's the first time I hear about such things
- [21:59:54] <codecks>
1st reason given by a well respected author in his book to use xhtml: XHTML is the current markup standard, replacing HTML 4
- [22:01:00] <veeliam>
"well respected author" = ?
- [22:01:14] <codecks>
jeffrey zeldman
- [22:04:16] <codecks>
I suppose u know him
- [22:05:11] <codecks>
tantek: i was speaking about XHTML1.1 wich is going to dissappear
- [22:05:45] <veeliam>
codecks, no. never heard the name. he sounds like a designer though. ;)
- [22:06:56] <codecks>
meaning, he doesn't have the technical skills ?
- [22:08:36] <veeliam>
no. meaning, i'm being sardonic.
- [22:10:18] <veeliam>
I often believe that his motivation for having "pushed" for XHTML vs HTML way back when, was just to make you think about hypertext seriously.
- [22:10:30] <tantek>
Jeffrey's right that XHTML was developed by W3C to replace HTML4.
- [22:11:13] <tantek>
and, in many cases (e.g. like where I use it, on Technorati, etc.), XHTML1 *has* replaced HTML4 and should for the reason I gave above.
- [22:12:47] <tantek>
XHTML 1.1 never really caught on
- [22:13:07] <tantek>
there was no author benefit to using it over XHTML 1.0
- [22:14:12] <bewest>
codecks: what year was that book published?
- [22:14:32] <tantek>
codecks, are you talking about Designing With Web Standards?
- [22:14:52] <tantek>
and original? or 2nd edition (just came out a few months ago)
- [22:15:11] <codecks>
yeah, it's that one, 2nd edition
- [22:16:11] <codecks>
it's not that old
- [22:16:17] <tantek>
no it's not
- [22:16:36] <tantek>
the other thing is, even among web standards advocates, there has been a lot of recent (as in past year) flux with regards to the future of HTML / XHTML
- [22:18:14] <codecks>
I'd like to have his opinion on that topic :-)
- [22:18:32] <codecks>
Zeldman's opinion
- [22:18:59] <bewest>
tantek: I don't know if you've read this book or not, but I highly recommend it
- [22:19:19] <bewest>
The Evolution of Useful Things by Heny Petroski
- [22:19:42] <codecks>
I'm in the reading of it.
- [22:20:02] <bewest>
"How everyday artifacts--from forks and pins to paper clips and zippers---came to be as they are."
- [22:20:22] <bewest>
last night I found great quote that immediately reminded me of some of our conversations:
- [22:21:56] <bewest>
"It would be well if engineering were less generally though of, and even defined, as the art of constructing. In a certain important sense it is rather the art of not constructing: or to define it rudely, but not inaptly, it is the art of doing well with one dollar, which any bungler can do with two after a fashion."
- [22:22:17] <bewest>
Which is from "Art of Railway Location" by A. M. Wellington
- [22:22:53] <tantek>
very nice quote.
- [22:24:27] <tantek>
hmm... searching for The Evolution of Useful Things by Heny Petroski yields no results - perhaps they could consider splitting on "by" for TITLE by AUTHOR searching
- [22:24:49] <bewest>
who is they?
- [22:24:54] <bewest>
amazon?
- [22:25:12] <tantek>
yeah
- [22:25:19] <tantek>
is this it? http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Useful-Things-Artifacts-Zippers-Came/dp/0679740392/
- [22:25:28] <codecks>
yup
- [22:25:41] <tantek>
*wishlisted*
- [22:25:47] <codecks>
it's the one I found too
- [22:25:53] <bewest>
yeah
- [22:26:03] <bewest>
it's a bit boring... I've been reading it for over a year
- [22:26:11] <bewest>
even though it's less than 300 pages
- [22:27:16] <veeliam>
ah, but it's only $10.17 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping...!
- [22:30:21] <bewest>
tantek: http://bewest.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/one-way-to-improve-amazon/
- [22:31:00] <tantek>
bewest, nice
- [22:31:27] <codecks>
wordpress uses xhtml too
- [22:31:49] <tantek>
snap auto-preview - not so nice. is that a wordpress.com thing or did you set that up on bewest.wordpress.com ?
- [22:32:26] <bewest>
it's a wordpressism
- [22:32:40] <bewest>
I looked for a way to turn it off initially
- [22:32:46] <bewest>
and gave up
- [22:35:18] <codecks>
so, they don't know about that MIME problem ? or they just ignor it ?
- [22:35:25] <w[brb]>
http://www.seobidding.com/buy/auction/goatse.cx
- [22:35:50] <bewest>
erm that looks suspicious
- [22:36:08] <w[brb]>
its for sale
- [22:37:08] <bewest>
ah, I see... FWIW, there are other forums more appropriate for this information... it's pretty off topic here
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- [22:54:06] <veeliam>
bewest, go to http://bewest.wordpress.com/wp-admin/themes.php?page=theme-extras
- [22:54:14] <veeliam>
and disable the snap preview
- [22:55:07] <bewest>
hmm
- [22:55:10] <bewest>
well it kind of grew on me
- [22:55:18] <bewest>
but if readers don't like it I guess I should turn it off
- [22:55:35] <bewest>
tantek: can you express what was not so nice about it?
- [22:56:23] <tantek>
stuff popping up over text I'm trying to read = bad
- [22:56:57] <bewest>
done
- [22:57:11] <tantek>
it is worse than bad, it is so annoying that 90% of the time I reflexively close the tab/window without bothering with the rest of the page
- [22:57:37] <bewest>
yeah, it's gone now
- [22:58:02] <bewest>
too much hassle to ask users to learn avoid it till they want it
- [22:59:09] <bewest>
thanks for the feedback
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- [23:03:42] <codecks>
bye folks, thanks for the infos
- [23:04:00] <veeliam>
codecks, np. good luck.
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