IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:39:43] <jibot>
davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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- [02:41:43] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16022 * ManuSporny * (+444) Grouping in Music Podcasting -
- [02:55:39] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16023 * ManuSporny * (+2238) Grouping in Music Services -
- [03:09:26] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16024 * ManuSporny * (-319) Grouping in Music Services -
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- [03:27:32] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16025 * ManuSporny * (+1052) USE TEMPLATES -
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- [03:38:39] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16026 * ManuSporny * (-314) Grouping in Music Services -
- [03:54:20] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16027 * ManuSporny * (-290) Grouping in Music Services -
- [03:54:46] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16028 * ManuSporny * (+16) Grouping in Music Services -
- [03:55:27] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16029 * ManuSporny * (+105) Analysis -
- [03:57:18] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16030 * ManuSporny * (+98) Summary of common patterns discovered -
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- [04:07:05] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16031 * ManuSporny * (+141) Added analysis of current state of the page.
- [04:07:46] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16032 * ManuSporny * (-1) People and Music Grouping in Music Podcasting -
- [04:10:42] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16033 * ManuSporny * (+61) Contributors -
- [04:10:58] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16034 * ManuSporny * (+4) Contributors -
- [04:11:49] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16035 * ManuSporny * (+143) Discussions -
- [04:15:35] <mfbot>
[[audio-info-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16036 * ManuSporny * (+25)
- [04:15:56] <mfbot>
[[audio-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16037 * ManuSporny * (+14) Contributors -
- [04:19:33] <mfbot>
[[grouping-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/grouping-brainstorming * ManuSporny * (+1083) Adding initial grouping brainstorming stub page
- [04:21:33] <mfbot>
[[grouping-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-examples&diff=0&oldid=16038 * ManuSporny * (+4) The Problem -
- [04:22:19] <mfbot>
[[grouping-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16039 * ManuSporny * (+870) Purpose -
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- [04:27:26] <mfbot>
[[grouping-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16040 * ManuSporny * (+43) Contributors -
- [04:38:47] <mfbot>
[[grouping-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=grouping-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16041 * ManuSporny * (+2940) Added Possible Solutions section
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- [06:31:19] <jacobi>
hi! I need some help with incorporation hCard at our website.
- [06:31:35] <jacobi>
I ment implementing
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- [06:36:08] <jacobi>
my problem is when using the operator-extension to firefox, my hcard isn't showing up. have I done something wrong? I can't figure out what.
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- [07:27:12] <KevinMarks>
url, jacobi
- [07:27:30] <jacobi>
http://dode.se
- [07:27:34] <jacobi>
nja
- [07:27:40] <jacobi>
you know what I mean :)
- [07:27:55] <jacobi>
http://dode.se
- [07:28:17] <KevinMarks>
you shouldn't leave the fn empty
- [07:29:07] <KevinMarks>
<a class="url fn" href="http://dode.se"></a> should be <a class="url fn" href="http://dode.se">dode</a>
- [07:29:42] <KevinMarks>
or <a class="url fn org" href="http://dode.se">dode</a> and drop the next line
- [07:29:55] <KevinMarks>
you could even do
- [07:30:03] <jacobi>
ok, what does it do?
- [07:30:11] <AGraf``>
fn = full name
- [07:30:11] <KevinMarks>
<a class="url fn org uid" href="http://dode.se">dode</a>
- [07:30:16] <KevinMarks>
formatted name
- [07:30:23] <jacobi>
ok, thank you very much!
- [07:30:24] <AGraf``>
ah
- [07:30:26] <AGraf``>
formatted
- [07:30:34] <KevinMarks>
in any case, fn or n is required
- [07:30:51] <AGraf``>
the last one is nice
- [07:30:52] <AGraf``>
<a class="url fn org uid" href="http://dode.se">dode</a>
- [07:31:08] <jacobi>
yes, I will change that immediatley. thank you again, KevinMarks.
- [07:31:14] <KevinMarks>
uid is good
- [07:31:27] <KevinMarks>
especially with the home URL
- [07:31:40] <AGraf``>
oh yes
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- [08:08:39] <KevinMarks>
http://jyte.com/cl/en-français-posh-se-traduit-par-chic
- [08:10:57] * AGraf`` kicks his openID server
- [08:11:59] <KevinMarks>
delegation via kevinmarks.com worked for me
- [08:12:33] <AGraf``>
yeah but you're using myopenid.com
- [08:12:40] <AGraf``>
I'm using phpMyID
- [08:13:01] <AGraf``>
which apparently hates mediatemple
- [08:13:06] <AGraf``>
or the other way round
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- [08:20:31] <AGraf``>
right, works now
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- [08:39:52] <mfbot>
[[posh-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh-fr&diff=0&oldid=16042 * ChristopheDucamp * (+313)
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- [09:30:25] <mfbot>
[[posh-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh-fr&diff=0&oldid=16043 * ChristopheDucamp * (+132) [fr: add jyte claim about CHIC + traduction tutoriel de westciv traitant de la validation]
- [09:33:26] <mfbot>
[[posh-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh-fr&diff=0&oldid=16044 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Présentations CHICs -
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[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=16045 * AndyMabbett * (+89) Examples in the wild - Wikipedia-IT
- [10:12:25] <mfbot>
[[geo-extension-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-strawman&diff=0&oldid=16046 * AndyMabbett * (+903) Issues - planetocentric longitude
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- [10:17:51] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16047 * AndyMabbett * (+203) New Examples - Wikipedia UK
- [10:18:17] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16048 * AndyMabbett * (-4) New Examples - fix
- [10:18:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16049 * AndyMabbett * (+36) New Examples -
- [10:20:19] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=16050 * AndyMabbett * (+195) UTF8 Examples - Ukranian
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- [11:47:34] <openstandards>
I'm wondering if its a good idea to use hcal when dealing with special offers
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- [13:39:24] <jacobi>
Hi!
- [13:41:51] <jacobi>
I'm making a website for a band and I was thinking of making use of microformats for their tour calender. Which should I use and how can I combine them? I was thinking of hCal for a start. Any other suggestions?
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- [13:48:38] <AGraf``>
jacobi: that totally depends on what data you are publishing currently
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- [13:49:22] <jacobi>
AGraf: I'm publishing dates, time, and the place where it is happening.
- [13:50:12] <AGraf``>
well, hcal is probably what you want, then
- [13:50:46] <Phae>
afternoon
- [13:50:57] <AGraf``>
you probably can/should use hCard for contact info as well
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- [13:53:09] <jacobi>
yeah, ok. do you think that I should show the hcal on the site, or should I hide it and write some similiar information that I publish? I'm sorry if I express myself a little bit clumsy, but my english is far from perfect.
- [13:54:05] <AGraf``>
neither is mine... no need to worry :)
- [13:54:12] <AGraf``>
you should always show what you publish
- [13:54:23] <AGraf``>
this is where microformats are useful
- [13:54:34] <AGraf``>
you mark up information that you already publish
- [13:54:53] <AGraf``>
not like RDF where you duplicate information and make the duplicate machine readable
- [13:55:21] <jacobi>
ah ok, I see.
- [13:55:46] <AGraf``>
so if you have i.e. a tour site, where you publish dates, you just mark up existing information to make it semantically enhanced
- [13:56:02] <jacobi>
yeah, thank you!
- [13:56:11] <AGraf``>
compare it to the spices in your food :) you just give it the finishing touches
- [13:56:14] <AGraf``>
np
- [13:57:24] <jacobi>
hehe, ok, I will think of it like that :)
- [13:57:49] <mfbot>
[[User:JensMeiert]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:JensMeiert&diff=0&oldid=16051 * JensMeiert * (-54) Minor changes
- [13:58:13] <julianstahnke>
'droid's library' <-- who is that?
- [13:58:37] <julianstahnke>
arg, wrong window, sorry
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- [14:27:32] <openstandards>
hcal is indeed nice, just marked up a special offer page
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- [14:31:35] <adactio>
openstandards, got a URL?
- [14:32:02] <openstandards>
not yet but will have by the end of the night
- [14:32:19] <openstandards>
about to start work on a rss feed to go with :D
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- [15:06:22] <mfbot>
[[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16052 * SteveIvy * (+228) Spread POSH -
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- [15:36:43] * mkaply wonders what extension is causing technorati to display with no styling
- [15:39:04] <mkaply>
ok, that's strange.
- [15:40:08] <mkaply>
technorati.com is missing styling in all Firefox regardless of extension
- [15:41:02] <mkaply>
ha. My hosts file is blocking static.technorati.com
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- [17:15:18] <mfbot>
[[posh-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh-fr&diff=0&oldid=16053 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Répandez CHIC - add french logo coming from steve
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- [21:16:26] <Hagfish_>
is http://microformats.org/wiki/profile-examples an orphan page?
- [21:16:40] <Hagfish_>
and shouldn't it be linked from the front page?
- [21:17:00] <kingryan>
Hagfish_: why the front page? that seems pretty arcane
- [21:17:10] <kingryan>
not everything deserves to be on the front page
- [21:17:16] <Hagfish_>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page
- [21:17:44] <kingryan>
Hagfish_: I know where the front page is
- [21:17:53] <Hagfish_>
oh
- [21:17:59] <Hagfish_>
i thought i might not be explaining myself
- [21:18:12] <Hagfish_>
what are the rules for something being linked from there?
- [21:18:55] <kingryan>
there are no rules, just good judgement
- [21:19:51] <Hagfish_>
could you explain the system of good judgement?
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- [21:22:56] <Hagfish_>
if a more specific question is easier, could you explain why "Profile examples, in the wild" is linked from the main page, but "profile examples" isn't?
- [21:25:07] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [21:26:04] <kingryan>
because profile examples doesn't have much content and there's not much activity around it
- [21:26:20] <kingryan>
and honestly, profile-examples-in-the-wild probably shouldn't be there either
- [21:26:34] <Hagfish_>
ahh, i see
- [21:27:14] <Hagfish_>
well, how should someone contribute to them if they thought they were a good idea?
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- [21:28:44] <kingryan>
find examples of profile pages, add links to them, document their structure
- [21:29:06] <Hagfish_>
on the "Profile Examples in the Wild" page?
- [21:29:38] <kingryan>
wait, no
- [21:29:47] <kingryan>
we ahve two different uses of "profile" here
- [21:30:07] <Hagfish_>
that might be a source of confusion
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- [21:43:25] <mfbot>
[[realestate-propertydetail]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=realestate-propertydetail&diff=0&oldid=16054 * BeFidled * (+0) Introduction -
- [21:45:51] <mfbot>
[[realestate-propertydetail]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=realestate-propertydetail&diff=0&oldid=16055 * BeFidled * (+1) Discussion -
- [21:47:07] <mfbot>
[[realestate-propertydetail]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=realestate-propertydetail&diff=0&oldid=16056 * BeFidled * (+9) Property Related Formats -
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- [22:06:32] <bewest>
Hagfish_, kingryan: and hilarity ensues?
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- [22:07:06] <Hagfish_>
well, it would do if more people could find the "Profile examples" page
- [22:08:52] <Hagfish_>
i can't understand why that one hasn't been followed up
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- [22:29:09] <Hagfish_>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-September/005388.html well, people were thinking about it in september. maybe i should try to catch the idea next time it comes up
- [22:32:07] <bewest>
feel free to bring it up
- [22:32:37] <Hagfish_>
write to the mailing list and ask what's happening with it?
- [22:32:49] <bewest>
yeah, rattle a stick around
- [22:33:07] <Hagfish_>
i think i need more than a stick
- [22:33:23] <bewest>
you'll get more receptivity if you can frame it in terms of documenting a semantic html technique instead of couching in the terms of creating a new format
- [22:33:51] <Hagfish_>
right, thank you
- [22:33:54] <bewest>
do you have something specific in mind?
- [22:34:18] <Hagfish_>
well actually, i have come across XUP which i don't think people have mentioned before in a microformats context
- [22:34:18] <bewest>
it's best phrased as a question: "how do I markup this set of attributes in a way that is consistent with hcard..."
- [22:34:27] <bewest>
XUP?
- [22:34:39] <Hagfish_>
http://xprofile.berlios.de/intro.html
- [22:34:59] <Hagfish_>
could really do with being refactored based on the existence of openid
- [22:35:09] <Hagfish_>
XUP tries to solve too many problems
- [22:36:06] <bewest>
they describe it as "horribly simple"
- [22:36:58] <Hagfish_>
i think they mean that the semantics are on the level of a microformat
- [22:37:06] <Hagfish_>
it even uses meta and link tags
- [22:38:03] <tantek_>
meta tags are a waste of time
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- [22:38:11] <bewest>
yeah
- [22:38:44] <Hagfish_>
it's just a sign that it's trying to reuse ideas familiar from html
- [22:39:03] <Hagfish_>
but obviously it did this without the benefit of the work of the microformats community
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- [22:40:01] <bewest>
Hagfish_: yeah, there are two tangible benefits: a process that defines how work is done, and people to help with the work
- [22:41:08] <Hagfish_>
i'm just thinking that XUP is very reminiscent of the days when people thought the only way to add semantic information to the web was to create a non-human-readable XML file
- [22:41:52] <Hagfish_>
i think if the XUP had heard of microformats they would have proposed one instead of some XML
- [22:42:16] <bewest>
yeah... though we need fewer format proposals and more documentation and research of semantic html techniques
- [22:42:40] <bewest>
then when it's painfully obvious that a technique doesn't work, that's when we start considering a format
- [22:43:18] <Hagfish_>
a technique doesn't work?
- [22:43:19] <Hagfish_>
like when?
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- [22:53:30] <bewest>
like fails to communicate with the desired level of fidelity
- [22:56:46] <Hagfish_>
bewest: can you give an example of that happening?
- [22:59:55] <bewest>
um
- [23:00:15] <bewest>
not really... it's just the way I like to view things
- [23:00:28] <bewest>
in reality there are other factors that mess up my mental model
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- [23:01:35] <bewest>
but to apply that idea to this profiles thing:
- [23:02:19] <bewest>
the right way to go would be to document a technique for conveying the desired information using semantic html using formats and patterns that already exist
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- [23:03:27] <bewest>
if there is really no technique that conveys the right information... for example perhaps the way hcard needs to be parsed won't possibly work for some reason... then the research that has already happened helps to pave the way for new format development
- [23:03:59] <Hagfish_>
is extending hcard a viable option?
- [23:04:08] <bewest>
but that's a big if... most of the requests the community recieves for "new formats" should really just be techniques for using existing formats for specific use cases
- [23:04:27] <tantek>
people shouldn't be extending things until they've actually gotten experience with using them in real world sites
- [23:04:49] <tantek>
otherwise their extension requests are more theoretical than based in any sort of evidence
- [23:05:49] <Hagfish_>
the advantage of XUP is that it lets the "name" attributes be made up on the spot
- [23:06:10] <Hagfish_>
perhaps that amount of flexibility isn't suited to a microformat
- [23:06:17] <openstandards>
any search engines following microformats?
- [23:06:24] <Hagfish_>
<meta name="MY-CATS-NAME" content="muffy" />
- [23:08:20] <bewest>
openstandards: impossible to know :-)
- [23:08:41] <tantek>
Hagfish - flexbility is a *disadvantage*
- [23:08:59] <bewest>
openstandards: search engines keep the details secret... and users certainly don't care
- [23:09:03] <tantek>
flexibility = babel = non-interoperability = noise
- [23:09:21] <bewest>
ah that's interesting
- [23:09:36] <bewest>
nice technologies are highly constrained
- [23:09:40] <tantek>
precisely
- [23:09:47] <tantek>
like HTML itself
- [23:09:53] <bewest>
REST models advocate a highly constrained verb space
- [23:10:05] <bewest>
same with atom publishing protocol
- [23:10:12] <bewest>
very constrained vocabulary
- [23:10:30] <Hagfish_>
it depends what you call the vocabulary
- [23:10:42] <bewest>
"workspace", "entry"...
- [23:10:51] <Hagfish_>
obviously in the hcard case you are not limiting the list of what names people are allowed to have
- [23:11:15] <tantek>
you are
- [23:11:16] <Hagfish_>
but you do limit the methods by which people can be contacted
- [23:11:18] <tantek>
there is a defined property set
- [23:11:27] <Hagfish_>
email, physical address, tel
- [23:11:35] <tantek>
url
- [23:11:38] <tantek>
done
- [23:11:44] <Hagfish_>
what about IM account?
- [23:11:44] <tantek>
any new contact methods should simply use a url
- [23:11:46] <tantek>
url
- [23:11:47] <bewest>
url should be good enough for anyone
- [23:11:51] <Hagfish_>
VoIP account?
- [23:11:55] <tantek>
hagfish - please see hcard-examples
- [23:11:59] <Hagfish_>
ok
- [23:12:02] <tantek>
these are already answered
- [23:12:39] <bewest>
google has an url that will connect your phone to the number on location on a map
- [23:13:16] <Hagfish_>
very good, ok
- [23:13:49] <Hagfish_>
but my general point is, hcard limits one half but not the other
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- [23:14:06] <Hagfish_>
key = value
- [23:14:11] <Hagfish_>
it limits the keys, not the values
- [23:14:25] <Hagfish_>
and keys like "url" can apparently be stretched
- [23:14:28] <Hagfish_>
to be future-proof
- [23:14:44] <Hagfish_>
XUP seems to be very similar, except there are no requirements on the keys
- [23:16:14] <tantek>
which means it is no better than POX / generic RDF etc = babel = non-interoperable data = noise
- [23:17:03] <bewest>
Im' not sure values need to be limited
- [23:17:13] <bewest>
any value I author is valid
- [23:17:19] <bewest>
because I'm a human :-)
- [23:17:21] <Hagfish_>
indeed
- [23:17:45] <Hagfish_>
well, what about thinking of these as two-dimensional tags?
- [23:17:56] <Hagfish_>
maybe hcard isn't the best fit
- [23:18:29] <tantek>
Hagfish - you're speaking too theoretically
- [23:18:37] <tantek>
wanna provide a URL to what you mean by two-dimensional tags?
- [23:19:54] <Hagfish_>
i thought i had one
- [23:20:01] <Hagfish_>
but it doesn't work how i thought
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- [23:22:59] <Hagfish_>
hmm, maybe i'm coming up against the wall that all similar projects have faced
- [23:23:17] <Hagfish_>
that there isn't a fixed set of things you can ask about a person
- [23:23:35] <Hagfish_>
and microformats are all about answering a specific set of questions about something
- [23:26:06] <Hagfish_>
is there no precedent for doing something like "<span class="cat's name">muffy</span>" and letting each community / site specify what the classes are going to be?
- [23:31:19] <kingryan>
Hagfish_: each community can figure that out on their own. if it's useful data they'll work on converging and we can look at creating or extending a format
- [23:31:44] <kingryan>
Hagfish_: ... but until people have real world experience with it and documentation of examples, we can't create anything useful
- [23:32:14] <Hagfish_>
i think there is an artificial barrier here
- [23:32:33] <Hagfish_>
you don't want to define a format where the keys are left to the community
- [23:32:43] <Hagfish_>
arguably that is less of a format
- [23:32:49] <Hagfish_>
fewer things are specified
- [23:33:15] <Hagfish_>
yes, that can be "babel" in some cases
- [23:33:35] <Hagfish_>
and it will be noisy
- [23:34:00] <Hagfish_>
but that doesn't mean it's no better than having no semantics and every system presenting their profiles differently
- [23:36:44] * Aubergine10 (n=chatzill@host86-141-117-126.range86-141.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [23:40:02] <Hagfish_>
some sites might have class="favourite band" and some might have class="favorite band", but it's simpler to get a search engine to equate the two than to write a spec that covers all possible classes, or to extract that data from non-semantic html sites, or even to expect that site creators won't add it themselves anyway, because it solves a particular problem between them and their affiliates
- [23:42:31] <Hagfish_>
the traditional microformats way would be to suggest 100 different microformats covering each community's needs, but i don't think that scales well
- [23:43:22] <Hagfish_>
admittedly, the 100 different ones would give you very accurate search results, but you have to hope that the thing you're searching on has been specified in those 100
- [23:43:32] <Hagfish_>
otherwise you can't even attempt a search
- [23:49:27] <Hagfish_>
well, i've got to sleep, but i'd be interested to hear rebuttals of my "100 formats" argument
- [23:49:32] <Hagfish_>
night
- [23:52:06] <kingryan>
Hagfish_: the "traditional microformats way" would actually be to *not* define a format
- [23:59:15] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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