IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  9. [00:41:24] <mfbot> [[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16057 * WebOrganics * (+100) Resources -
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  11. [01:06:06] <mfbot> [[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16058 * WebOrganics * (+123) Spread POSH -
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  15. [01:57:14] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=16059 * CarlAnderson * (+466) Online Profiles -
  16. [01:59:00] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=16060 * CarlAnderson * (+18) Online Profiles -
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  19. [02:04:04] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  22. [02:16:17] <mfbot> [[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16061 * WebOrganics * (+124)
  23. [02:19:23] <mfbot> [[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16062 * WebOrganics * (+3)
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  27. [02:43:45] <mfbot> [[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16063 * WebOrganics * (-5)
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  41. [04:59:02] <seemant> hi all
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  68. [07:14:41] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  72. [07:36:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  73. [07:36:32] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  74. [07:48:32] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  75. [07:48:32] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  78. [07:58:55] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  80. [07:59:13] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  83. [08:18:18] <jibot> ddfreyne is nothing
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  86. [08:23:27] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=16064 * Sandy00 * (+3604) From Wikipedia -
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  88. [08:45:46] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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  97. [09:30:06] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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  104. [09:57:19] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  108. [10:36:19] <drewinthehead> greetings
  109. [10:42:06] <drewinthehead> Nice investigation into the ABBR pattern: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/
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  114. [11:36:05] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  124. [12:34:43] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  127. [12:47:18] <jibot> ddfreyne is nothing
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  130. [13:03:32] <jibot> bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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  136. [13:36:31] <Lachy> hey, I've got a quick question about hResume and hCard...
  137. [13:37:36] <Lachy> hResume says I should use <address> for my contact information, marked up using hCard. But <address> can only contain inline level markup.
  138. [13:38:47] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  139. [13:38:48] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
  140. [13:39:12] <Kilianvalkhof> pfew, i'm still me :)
  141. [13:39:33] <Lachy> it doesn't seem right to use <span> for almost everything inside the <address>, so how am I supposed to markup all of postal address, phone numbers, email, URI, etc. in just one <address> element?
  142. [13:40:36] <davecardwell> "should" not "must"
  143. [13:40:40] <Azath0th> it says you "should". i guess it's for the cases where you'd just put your "fn" and "url" in there. if you want to offer more information, just use whatever tags you want
  144. [13:41:01] <Lachy> ok, fair enough.
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  147. [14:07:46] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-0a9812f8e3cd04d8) has joined #microformats
  148. [14:07:46] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  149. [14:28:25] * Kilianvalkhof (n=Kay@a80-100-213-232.adsl.xs4all.nl) Quit ("Leaving")
  150. [14:32:03] <tantek> Lachy, why doesn't it seem right to use <span> for almost everything inside the <address>?
  151. [14:34:04] <Lachy> because the default rendering without CSS should look reasonably sensible, and shouldn't rely on <br><br> to separate blocks of contact info.
  152. [14:36:27] <Lachy> tantek, see http://lachy.id.au/temp/resume.xhtml - Would you suggest I markup that hcard any differently from what I settled on?
  153. [14:40:09] <tantek> for starters I'm seeing a character encoding problem with Safari 2.0
  154. [14:40:24] <tantek> Lachlan Hunt’s Resumé
  155. [14:42:43] <tantek> Lachy, yes, you should be using <address class="vcard"> not <div class="vcard">
  156. [14:43:20] <tantek> also, your formatted name is not a paragraph, so <p class="fn"> is semantic abuse
  157. [14:45:26] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  158. [14:46:48] <Lachy> that's safari's problem. It's clearly not defaulting to UTF-8 for XHTML as it should per XML rules
  159. [14:47:17] <tantek> as is the use of <p> to group tels and <p class="adr">
  160. [14:47:45] <Lachy> why? That's a thematic grouping, which is a perfectly legitimate use of <p>
  161. [14:47:50] <tantek> basically, don't use <p> for things that are not paragraphs
  162. [14:48:13] <Lachy> I'm using XHTML5, and following the semantics defined in that spec
  163. [14:48:22] <Lachy> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#paragraph
  164. [14:48:36] <tantek> it's nearly as bad as using <blockquote> for things that are not quotes
  165. [14:48:52] <tantek> if XHTML5 is redefining <p>, that's a big mistake
  166. [14:49:56] <Lachy> HTML4 didn't clearly define what <p> was, so it technically not redefining it
  167. [14:50:08] <Lachy> it's defining it properly for the first time
  168. [14:50:50] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Authors_of_Pages_and_Posts
  169. [14:50:59] <tantek> that's how to use <address>
  170. [14:51:49] * jcw9 (n=jonathan@WILLIAMSJ01.ADMIN.ED.NYU.EDU) has joined #microformats
  171. [14:51:50] <jibot> jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
  172. [14:52:00] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3.1
  173. [14:52:05] <tantek> The P element represents a paragraph.
  174. [14:52:30] <Lachy> all that says is "The P element represents a paragraph. It cannot contain block-level elements (including P itself)."
  175. [14:52:37] <tantek> no common english definition of "paragraph" means "thematic grouping"
  176. [14:52:41] <Lachy> that doesn't actually define anything sensible
  177. [14:52:52] <tantek> so XHTML5 doing so is unreasonable
  178. [14:53:00] <tantek> it violates the principle of least surprise
  179. [14:53:10] * danja_ (n=danja@host86-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  180. [14:53:13] <tantek> it's someone's wacky opinion of what a <p> could be used for
  181. [14:53:23] <tantek> and it's "semantic dilution
  182. [14:53:26] <tantek> "
  183. [14:53:35] <Lachy> I disagree
  184. [14:53:51] <tantek> if you wanted to more clearly define "paragraph"
  185. [14:54:02] <tantek> then:
  186. [14:54:04] <tantek> "A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea, or the words of an author."
  187. [14:54:08] <tantek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
  188. [14:54:38] <tantek> so, yes, "thematic grouping" is totally whack
  189. [14:54:58] <Lachy> what benefit is there in retaining such strict, theoretical semantic purity?
  190. [14:55:02] <tantek> redefining common english terms that much is both stupid and arrogant
  191. [14:55:19] <tantek> wrong burden of proof
  192. [14:55:44] <tantek> absent any evidence otherwise, don't needlessly change definition
  193. [14:56:14] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  194. [14:57:41] <Lachy> well, feel free to take up the issue with Hixie or mail the whatwg or public-html lists if you like.
  195. [14:58:51] <tantek> it's even dumber than redefining "definition list" to markup dialog.
  196. [14:59:15] <Lachy> HTML5 has <dialog> for that now
  197. [14:59:31] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  198. [14:59:48] <tantek> good. what's wrong with using <span> or <div> for thematic grouping?
  199. [15:00:23] <Lachy> but it also redefines <dl> as an association list, rather than attempting to retain the strict, impractical definition of "definition list"
  200. [15:02:21] <tantek> anyway, you asked me how you should be using <address> and hCard and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Authors_of_Pages_and_Posts is the answer
  201. [15:02:28] <KevinMarks> no <dialog> is dumb
  202. [15:02:49] <AGraf``> why is <dialog> dumb
  203. [15:02:52] <KevinMarks> it redefines <dt> and <dd> as it's children
  204. [15:03:31] <KevinMarks> what it uses <dd> for should be <q> and t should define a new element meaning speaker
  205. [15:03:33] <Lachy> tantek, those examples don't include postal address, phone numbers or email address. <address> is inadequate for my needs if you think it is to contain all of that
  206. [15:03:41] <tantek> it is
  207. [15:03:47] * danja_ (n=danja@host29-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  208. [15:04:13] <AGraf``> please note that the WHATWG working draft for HTML5 must not necessarily be adopted by the W3C HTML WG as a basis for the W3C HTML 5 draft (although I'm sure it will)
  209. [15:04:20] <KevinMarks> it breaks the containment rules of <dl>
  210. [15:04:21] <Lachy> anyway, I used address around my email address, within the hcard
  211. [15:04:25] * adactio (n=jeremy@host86-137-14-215.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  212. [15:04:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o adactio
  213. [15:04:33] <AGraf``> please also note that a lot of things are going to change in that draft, before it becomes a w3c recommendation
  214. [15:04:48] <AGraf``> it's no use calling anything in HTML5 dumb now
  215. [15:05:00] <KevinMarks> well, I pointed out <dialog> was dumb on the list, but it remains
  216. [15:05:11] <AGraf``> feel free to join us in the HTML working group and make your point
  217. [15:05:18] <KevinMarks> I could go stand over hixie
  218. [15:05:29] <tantek> I'm just surprised that such obvious mistakes are being made
  219. [15:05:47] <KevinMarks> I made the point in whatwg
  220. [15:05:52] <tantek> Lachy, AGraf, it's not reasonable to ask for everyone to participate - that doesn't scale
  221. [15:06:00] <AGraf``> just as a sidenote,.. i'm surprised too
  222. [15:06:05] <AGraf``> tantek: no of course not
  223. [15:06:11] <tantek> rather, you should consider re-assessing your reasoning, and fight things which are obviously wrong
  224. [15:06:37] <AGraf``> tantek: but i believe you and KevinMarks are both very competent and *should* be on that list of participants
  225. [15:06:41] <Lachy> tantek, if you have some feedback about HTML5, it's up to you to contribute it to the write channels.
  226. [15:06:41] <tantek> like p->thematic grouping. totally ridiculous.
  227. [15:06:42] <KevinMarks> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010863.html
  228. [15:06:48] <tantek> Agraf, not everyone can do everything
  229. [15:06:54] <AGraf``> i realize that
  230. [15:07:05] <tantek> I have more things to work on in microformats than will let me ever participate directly on HTML5
  231. [15:07:45] <AGraf``> that's my problem too... i'm participating as a DERI member and I can only contribute like 2 hours a month to the w3C wg
  232. [15:07:56] <AGraf``> there's always more than enough work
  233. [15:08:21] <Lachy> no-one is saying you have to be very active all the time, you're welcome to just send 1 mail and leave if you like
  234. [15:09:18] <AGraf``> also, if people would come up with a list of problems in the current draft, i'm sure i could make a point in the WG
  235. [15:09:25] <KevinMarks> Lachy, sent several
  236. [15:09:28] <AGraf``> people that actually know what they talk about, that is
  237. [15:09:46] * davecardwell (n=davecard@host217-44-64-173.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("http://davecardwell.co.uk/")
  238. [15:09:59] <tantek> Lachy, this channel is logged with permalinks, please feel free to pass on my feedback accordingly.
  239. [15:10:22] <Lachy> sure, I'll point Hixie to it
  240. [15:10:37] <Lachy> (he'll probably read it, since he's in here anyway)
  241. [15:10:40] <AGraf``> tantek: I'm collecting issues anyway... I'll include your points as well if thats ok
  242. [15:10:45] <AGraf``> especially because i agree
  243. [15:10:55] <tantek> and if he is the one who had the arrogance to redefine what a "paragraph" is, please smack him with a wet trout (figuratively speaking of course ;)
  244. [15:11:11] <KevinMarks> can you include my issue with <dialog> redefining <dt> and <dd> abusively?
  245. [15:11:18] <Lachy> well, he's the editor, so yes, it was him
  246. [15:11:28] <AGraf``> KevinMarks: i will :>
  247. [15:12:13] <tantek> Lachy, editors often just clean up content from authors, or are just a conduit for decisions made elsewhere
  248. [15:12:13] <Lachy> KevinMarks, dt and dd still (sort of) retain their meaning from HTML4 when used within <dl>
  249. [15:12:29] <AGraf``> tantek: however, i don't see the problem with <p>
  250. [15:12:34] <Lachy> tantek, Hixie is the only author/editor of that spec
  251. [15:12:53] <KevinMarks> yes
  252. [15:13:00] <Lachy> atleast until Dave Hyatt becomes an editor when the spec is accepted to the HTMLWG
  253. [15:13:03] <AGraf``> tantek: aside from the wording "thematic grouping"
  254. [15:13:09] <AGraf``> because that's just wrong
  255. [15:13:12] <tantek> hence I don't necessarily conclude that the responsibility for any particular portion of content is that of the editor
  256. [15:13:46] <Lachy> I don't understand your problem with thematic grouping. A paragraph, even in the traditional sense, is just a group of related sentences with a common theme
  257. [15:14:04] <tantek> AGraf, right, and it calls into question the assumption of a "benevolent expert dictator"
  258. [15:14:16] * Linmic (i=Linmicya@nova.mis.yzu.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  259. [15:14:29] <KevinMarks> but making them mean something else within <dialog> is abusive, and making them able to appear outside <dl> breaks a lot of of existing parser assumptions
  260. [15:14:41] <tantek> Lachy, and your use in the hCard includes no sentences.
  261. [15:14:54] <tantek> so you are semantically abusing <p>
  262. [15:15:01] <Lachy> no
  263. [15:15:06] <AGraf``> Lachy: thematic grouping of sentences, yes
  264. [15:15:16] <AGraf``> but not just general "thematic grouping" of anything
  265. [15:15:17] <tantek> why do you wish to redefine paragraph?
  266. [15:15:17] <tantek> where is that motivation coming from?
  267. [15:15:22] <tantek> that's what i'm calling arrogance
  268. [15:15:29] <Lachy> what element would you suggest instead?
  269. [15:15:36] <AGraf``> <group>?
  270. [15:15:39] <AGraf``> or whatever
  271. [15:15:39] <tantek> <span> inside <address>
  272. [15:15:51] <AGraf``> just not <p> to group arbitrary things
  273. [15:16:32] <Lachy> with one address per item? e.g. <address>(phone number</addresss> <address>(postal address)</> ...
  274. [15:16:50] <AGraf``> why?
  275. [15:16:57] <AGraf``> you are defining an address
  276. [15:17:03] <AGraf``> of a person or an organization
  277. [15:17:11] <AGraf``> the adress includes several elements
  278. [15:17:17] <Lachy> or <address class="vcard"><span>... everythign....</span></address>
  279. [15:17:26] <AGraf``> like street address, stret number, and so on
  280. [15:17:27] <AGraf``> yes
  281. [15:18:12] <AGraf``> <address class="vcard"><span class="...">text</span><span class="...">text</span></span>
  282. [15:18:42] <Lachy> right. <span> is a semantically meaningless *inline* element, I am not going to use span to group *blocks* of information. That's just wrong
  283. [15:19:19] <AGraf``> why would for example a street name be a block?
  284. [15:19:51] <Lachy> the whole postal address is a block, the street name within can use a span
  285. [15:20:10] <Lachy> see http://lachy.id.au/temp/resume.xhtml
  286. [15:21:42] <AGraf``> then use <div>?
  287. [15:22:03] <Lachy> why? I'm happy with <p>
  288. [15:22:42] <AGraf``> it's not a paragraph though
  289. [15:23:05] <Lachy> I'd rather not continue this disucssion if the arguments are simply based on theoretical semantic purity. Welcome to reality!
  290. [15:23:14] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
  291. [15:23:15] <jibot> AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
  292. [15:23:49] <AGraf``> ok that's ridiculous... then we can also go back to using tables for layout, haha.
  293. [15:23:52] <AGraf``> but as you wish
  294. [15:24:16] <Lachy> now, that's just stretching what I said a little too far
  295. [15:24:28] <AGraf``> :) like you did
  296. [15:25:41] <AGraf``> anyway, I'll remember what you said and will attend reality now
  297. [15:25:45] <KevinMarks> table is a semantic grouping in blocks
  298. [15:25:52] * hlb (i=lbhsiuh@alumni.csie.nctu.edu.tw) Quit ("leaving")
  299. [15:26:05] <Lachy> table is for tabular data. that hasn't changed
  300. [15:26:22] * hlb (i=lbhsiuh@alumni.csie.nctu.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
  301. [15:26:24] <KevinMarks> and p is for paragraphs
  302. [15:26:30] * danja_ (n=danja@host29-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Connection timed out)
  303. [15:26:47] <Lachy> right, it just depends on your definition of "paragraph"
  304. [15:26:54] <KevinMarks> are you labelling the fields?
  305. [15:27:13] <Lachy> KevinMarks, what do you mean?
  306. [15:27:42] <KevinMarks> street: 37 blah city: blahtown
  307. [15:27:54] <Lachy> no, that would be silly
  308. [15:28:23] <tantek> Lachy, your point about theoretical argument is correct, you're just wrong about burden of proof
  309. [15:28:41] <KevinMarks> hm, no <div> in address? that's annoying
  310. [15:28:58] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD4E12.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  311. [15:29:01] <Lachy> what exactly do you need me to prove?
  312. [15:29:56] <Lachy> KevinMarks, why would I want to use more divs?
  313. [15:30:36] * danja_ (n=danja@host16-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  314. [15:32:14] * danja_ (n=danja@host16-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  315. [15:32:48] <tantek> Lachy, the theoretical is your expansion of the semantics of <p>
  316. [15:33:04] <tantek> not the disproof of
  317. [15:33:07] <mkaply> wow. that dialog /dt /dd thing is dumb
  318. [15:33:08] <Lachy> tantek, even the definition from wikipedia that you quoted doesn't really support your case. Nowhere in it did it say that it the discourse has to be prose.
  319. [15:33:25] <tantek> Lachy, it is you that have to make the case for change
  320. [15:33:36] <tantek> that's how burden of proof works
  321. [15:35:17] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=16065 * Tantek * (+237) hCard examples - add an extended example to contact info for a page with postal address, phone numbers, email address
  322. [15:35:24] <Lachy> I have already. The segments of a postal address, for example, is just text dealing "dealing with a particular idea" (an address, in this case).
  323. [15:35:45] <tantek> paragraphs are not segments
  324. [15:36:01] <Lachy> I didn't say they were, you misunderstood what I wrote
  325. [15:36:34] <Lachy> by segments, I was referring to the street address, suburb, state, etc.
  326. [15:36:50] <AGraf``> Lachy: A streetname is not commonly defined as a paragraph though, as i already mentioned
  327. [15:37:02] <Lachy> collectively, they are thematically grouped into a paragpah
  328. [15:37:09] <tantek> I still don't understand why are you motivated to stretch the definition of paragraph so much beyond what reasonable educated folks would consider a paragraph to be.
  329. [15:37:16] <Lachy> AGraf``, I never said a *streetname* was a paragraph!
  330. [15:37:18] <tantek> I think you've convinced yourself with theoretical arguments.
  331. [15:37:26] <Lachy> nonsense
  332. [15:37:26] <tantek> to do something which is totally unreasonable
  333. [15:37:35] <Lachy> how is it unreasonable?
  334. [15:37:38] <mkaply> If you were formatting an address in Microsoft Word, would you mark it as a paragraph?
  335. [15:38:21] <tantek> it is unreasonable because it violates the expectations of what people in general think of what a paragraph is
  336. [15:38:23] <Lachy> well, MS Word doesn't really distinguish between paragraphs and other blocks of text particularly well
  337. [15:38:41] <tantek> for purely theoretical reasons
  338. [15:38:49] <AGraf``> Lachy: would you do it in LaTeX?
  339. [15:39:05] <Lachy> I don't know LaTeX, so no comment
  340. [15:40:16] <Lachy> tantek, my point is that your purely theoretical reasons have no basis in reality for HTML.
  341. [15:40:18] <tantek> it is so dumb as to not be worth arguing, if you wish to continue fooling yourself into thinking that expanding <p> is reasonable, you may go ahead, but don't expect typical folks to take you seriously
  342. [15:40:32] <tantek> Lachy, they are not theoretical, they are customary definitions
  343. [15:40:33] <Lachy> whatever
  344. [15:40:41] <tantek> e.g Wikipedia reference
  345. [15:40:52] <tantek> and it is arrogant of you to expand the definition as such
  346. [15:40:57] <Lachy> and I already showed that the wikipedia doesn't wholly support your case
  347. [15:40:58] <tantek> or Hixie for that matter
  348. [15:41:35] <tantek> I don't have a case, you're the one who has the burden of proof. The point is that the wikipedia definition disproves your assertion of "thematic grouping"
  349. [15:41:50] <Lachy> no, it is arrogant of you to hang on to theoretically pure semantics as the basis of your argument, instead of being more pragmatic about the issue
  350. [15:41:58] <tantek> if you want to call the wikipedia definition theoretical, and claim that you know better, then yes, go ahead, that just demonstrates your arrogance
  351. [15:42:49] <Lachy> no need to start flaming
  352. [15:42:50] <tantek> it's not arrogant to hang onto the definition in HTML4, and then use a accepted references for further english definitions, it's conservative and reasonable.
  353. [15:44:14] <tantek> Lachy, if your way of thinking reflects a methodology behind changes in HTML5, then there will likely be many more problems (read: changes that seem like a surprise to reasonable people), and it doesn't bode well for HTML5
  354. [15:45:18] <mkaply> tantek: some would claim microformats are abusing abbr. So be careful :)
  355. [15:45:19] <Lachy> changes may be surprising to some, that's just a fact of life
  356. [15:45:28] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54bd4898.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  357. [15:45:33] * Lachy has claimed that in the past!
  358. [15:46:00] <tantek> mkaply, microformats *are* stretching abbr a bit - that's acknowledged as an issue, and a tradeoff for making something work in existing HTML4
  359. [15:46:16] <tantek> now *that* is something I'd like to see a new element for in HTML5, so we wouldn't have to stretch abbr
  360. [15:46:43] <mkaply> The other disadvantage to using paragraph like that is that styling you intend to only affect "true" paragraphs will also affect your address
  361. [15:46:49] <adactio> Speaking of abbr-stretching (and in a subtle move to change the subject), has everyone seen this: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/
  362. [15:47:03] <tantek> and the use of abbr as such was done with great deliberation and consciousness, not simple redefinition as if it was always that way.
  363. [15:47:18] <Lachy> well, HTML5 is slightly extending the meaning of <p> beyond the definition of "paragraph". That's acknowledged, but not considered an issue
  364. [15:48:38] <tantek> I consider it an issue and a mistake. Please don't redefine common english terms to mean things that typical definitions don't support, and that would surprise a typical HTML author.
  365. [15:48:45] <Lachy> actually, It'd be better to say it's *refining* the meaning to be more practical
  366. [15:49:08] <Lachy> we're not redefining common english terms at all, just refining the meaning of <p>
  367. [15:49:13] <tantek> unnecessary, div and span can be used for semantic grouping
  368. [15:49:25] <tantek> it's an unnecessary change
  369. [15:49:29] <Lachy> <div> and <span> are, by definition, non-semantic
  370. [15:49:36] <tantek> mkaply's practical argument is a good one too
  371. [15:49:46] <tantek> it demonstrates why using p for things *other* than paragraphs is silly
  372. [15:49:58] <tantek> and violates the expectation set in HTML4
  373. [15:50:04] <tantek> which is that p is paragraph
  374. [15:50:13] <Lachy> mkaply'
  375. [15:50:21] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  376. [15:50:24] <Lachy> mkaply's styling argument could equally apply to <div>
  377. [15:50:39] <mkaply> that's why use add semantic information to divs to give them context.
  378. [15:50:51] <mkaply> div class="address">
  379. [15:50:58] <mkaply> div id="my_address">
  380. [15:51:05] <Lachy> I prefer <p class="adr">
  381. [15:51:29] <mkaply> <p class="adr"> would look like this
  382. [15:51:50] <Lachy> you're not going to like this either: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address ...
  383. [15:52:00] <Lachy> "The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses (e.g. postal addresses), unless those addresses are contact information for the section. (The p element is the appropriate element for marking up such addresses.)"
  384. [15:52:40] <mkaply> <p class="adr">I live at <span class="street-address">123 anywhere street</span> in the <span class="country">United States</span></p>
  385. [15:52:57] <mkaply> That's a paragraph address if you want to use it that way
  386. [15:53:14] <Lachy> yeah, just s/I live at// and s/in the// and that's what I have
  387. [15:53:34] <AGraf``> Lachy: "(The p element is the appropriate element for marking up such addresses.)"
  388. [15:53:40] <AGraf``> that's just silly
  389. [15:53:42] <Lachy> you're claming that a paragraph can only contain *prose*. That is wrong
  390. [15:54:27] <AGraf``> what benefit (semantically) would I have from marking up my own address with <address> and for example yours on the same page with <p>
  391. [15:55:37] <Lachy> actually, that's retaining the HTML4 semantics, which said that <address> was only for author's contact information. <address> has never been for generic addresses
  392. [15:55:48] <mkaply> tantek: Why doesn't microformats use the title attribute for spans and divs?
  393. [15:56:08] <AGraf``> if i remember correctly, that was a "should"
  394. [15:56:41] <tantek> mkaply, because that would be less visible
  395. [15:56:46] <tantek> Lachy, at least that we can agree on.
  396. [15:56:53] <tantek> even if the element is misnamed
  397. [15:57:05] <Lachy> actually, in typical HTML4 style, <address> wasn't really defined well at all
  398. [15:57:13] <mkaply> tantek: But the idea behind the abbr pattern was to hide the machine date anyway, why not hide it in a span or div vs an abbr?
  399. [15:57:27] <Lachy> it says "The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact information for a document or a major part of a document such as a form."
  400. [15:57:33] <tantek> because that is less semantic
  401. [15:57:53] <tantek> abbr reflects the common usage of dates & times by humans, which is in abbreviated form
  402. [15:58:40] <Lachy> what definition of "abbreviated form" are you using to make that claim?
  403. [15:58:56] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  404. [15:59:08] <Lachy> luckily, HTML5 has <time> to resolve this issue
  405. [15:59:08] <tantek> that wasp post is incredibly flawed, I communicated my objections to James Craig in person at SXSW. he's using strawmen examples, not typical examples, and the <object> solution we already know to be unworkable due to the fact that each <object> instantiates a new "browser" instance in various browser implementations.
  406. [15:59:12] <mkaply> ISO dates can provide more information than what they are "abbreviating". which is not technically an abbreviation :)
  407. [15:59:33] <tantek> Lachy, when someone says "5pm" they typically mean "5pm that day"
  408. [15:59:39] <tantek> 5pm is an abbreviation
  409. [15:59:46] <tantek> for the meaning
  410. [16:00:17] <tantek> FYI: re: <address> and hCard
  411. [16:00:20] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards
  412. [16:01:36] <mfbot> [[brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16066 * Tantek * (+9) add TOC
  413. [16:01:45] <Lachy> now, if I start arguing like you were with paragraph, I can claim that "A shortened form of a word or phrase used chiefly in writing to represent the complete form"
  414. [16:01:46] <Lachy> http://www.answers.com/abbreviation
  415. [16:01:56] <tantek> Lachy, FYI re: burden of proof: http://microformats.org/wiki/brainstorming#Burden_of_Proof
  416. [16:02:29] <tantek> Lachy, yes, it is acknowledged that datetime design pattern usage of abbr is stretching it - please see my comment above.
  417. [16:02:47] <tantek> It is done for practical reasons, and not without exploring other alternatives first
  418. [16:03:24] <tantek> rather than just a "whim" of an editor (which appears to be what happened with p / thematic gropuing)
  419. [16:03:25] <Lachy> well, it's certainly better than the <object> idea you had for it at one stage :-)
  420. [16:04:01] <mkaply> I'm sorry, not to be dense. What is the difference between <span class="dtstart" title="ISODATE">May 3</span> and
  421. [16:04:02] <tantek> iteration is a key part of microformats methodology :)
  422. [16:04:09] <mkaply> <abbr class="dtstart" title="ISODATE">May 3</abbr>
  423. [16:04:27] <tantek> mkaply, abbr defines the semantic that the title is an expansion of the contents of the element
  424. [16:04:33] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54BD6F59.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  425. [16:04:34] <tantek> span has no such semantic on title
  426. [16:04:41] <mkaply> ah
  427. [16:04:46] <tantek> *big* difference
  428. [16:04:57] <Lachy> what practical difference is there?
  429. [16:05:53] <tantek> without practical reason to the contrary, we follow the HTML4 spec for semantics as best and as precisely as possible
  430. [16:06:08] <mkaply> the accessibility thing is huge though. And would hinder adoption of microformats in a corporate/govt arenas
  431. [16:06:21] <tantek> the practical reason is that it is a waste of time to re-argue established specifications unless you have a specific practical reason for doing so
  432. [16:06:42] <adactio> I'm actually drafting an email to this about this right now. I completely agree that abbr is *semantically* the correct element to use and that using the title attribute this way on other elements is semantically incorrect but I think that from a practical standpoint we need to expand the pattern to other elements to solve the practical problems in screenreaders.
  433. [16:06:43] <tantek> hence: http://microformats.org/wiki/brainstorming#Burden_of_Proof
  434. [16:06:54] <tantek> mkaply, there are improvements we can make the render the strawmen examples in that post moot
  435. [16:07:08] <tantek> e.g. using "-" to separate the YMD components
  436. [16:07:21] <tantek> we should do that in our examples, and in practice
  437. [16:07:23] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  438. [16:07:23] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  439. [16:07:25] <mkaply> Are you sure the screen reader reads it correctly in those cases?
  440. [16:07:29] <tantek> 2007-04-27 rather than 20070427
  441. [16:07:41] <tantek> mkaply, according to James Craig it does a much better job
  442. [16:08:05] <tantek> it reads it as "two thousand seven [pause] four [pause] twenty-seven"
  443. [16:08:13] <tantek> or rather "they" read them as
  444. [16:08:33] <tantek> instead of twenty-million etc.
  445. [16:08:47] <tantek> similarly with the time component
  446. [16:08:48] <mkaply> but that's still not useful. You would want the contents of the abbr read
  447. [16:08:52] <mkaply> in that case.
  448. [16:09:10] <mkaply> For screen readers, they assume (per the spec) that the title of the abbr can be read in the same context of the abbr
  449. [16:09:11] <tantek> using ":" for separation helps as well
  450. [16:09:11] <tantek> mkaply, not necessarily
  451. [16:09:11] <tantek> depends on your cultural bias
  452. [16:09:21] <tantek> 4/5 means something different to Americans vs. Europeans
  453. [16:09:54] <tantek> 2007-04-05 is more likely to be unambiguously understood across cultures than 4/5
  454. [16:10:58] <tantek> mkaply, and the other thing is that such "more formatted" ISO dates with "-" and ":" are trivial for screen readers to recognize, and the read according to the *user's* datetime reading preferences
  455. [16:11:12] <tantek> which results in an even *better* solution than reading the contents of the abbr
  456. [16:11:21] <tantek> because then the user hears it as they are used to it
  457. [16:11:26] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-e0867f818273c668) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  458. [16:11:26] <tantek> perhaps even in their own natural language
  459. [16:11:28] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  460. [16:12:09] <tantek> so while the abbr date-time-design-pattern may be causing a little bit of pain now, it actually enables *much* better accessibility with just a *tiny* bit of work on the part of the screen readers
  461. [16:12:26] <tantek> that's the real reason why I'm not too worried about this.
  462. [16:12:37] <tantek> screen readers are just software. software improves over time.
  463. [16:12:50] <mkaply> tantek: You clearly have never worked with screen reader vendors
  464. [16:13:15] <mkaply> :)
  465. [16:13:16] <tantek> mkaply, screen readers *have* improved in the past yes? therefore there is evidence they will improve in the future.
  466. [16:13:33] <tantek> especially given incentive to do so (an opportunity to differentiate themselves from competitors)
  467. [16:14:27] <mkaply> People don't switch from one screen reader to the other based on features. You pick one in the beginning and pretty much stick to it the rest of your life
  468. [16:14:41] <mkaply> because moving between them is difficuly
  469. [16:15:12] <tantek> but presumably you upgrade right?
  470. [16:15:16] <tantek> and there are always new useres
  471. [16:15:43] <tantek> any screen reader that stays static will eventually lose market share to new users using other screen readers
  472. [16:15:54] <adactio> But Tantek, one of the fundamental tenets of microformats is that they work *today*, not at some future theoretical point (a la some W3C technologies).
  473. [16:15:55] <tantek> even if every user choose their screen reader only once
  474. [16:16:14] <adactio> That's why I think we need to take some measures now, even if they are just stop-gap measures.
  475. [16:16:41] <tantek> adactio, correct, and such measures are to encourage "-" and ":" separation
  476. [16:16:53] <tantek> I believe that to be sufficient to minimize the pain for now, while enabling a huge leap forward in datetime accessibility
  477. [16:17:08] <adactio> I'm adding a comment to that effect to the WaSP post as we speak. :-)
  478. [16:17:18] <tantek> microformats are about making things work today in a way which enables and empowers lots of new uses
  479. [16:18:09] <tantek> you get at least a little immediate benefit from microformats (which is important), *and* significant medium/longterm benefit as more and more applications, services, and tools (like Operator) are developed
  480. [16:18:20] <mkaply> John Allsopp is tricky. He's teaching me CSS in a microformats book
  481. [16:19:56] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD4E12.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  482. [16:22:31] <mkaply> If any of you guys are interested in contributing to dicussion about the UI of microformats in Firefox 3 (and operator)
  483. [16:22:48] <mkaply> https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?board=4.0
  484. [16:22:57] <mkaply> in particular https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php/topic,77.0.html
  485. [16:23:49] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=16067 * Tantek * (+83) Reverted edit of Kwilson, changed back to last version by Tantek
  486. [16:32:27] * mkaply really needs some UI folks to help think through microformats in the browser
  487. [16:33:45] <ajturner> mkaply - you referring to the new FoE book?
  488. [16:33:58] <mkaply> ajturner: yep :)
  489. [16:34:09] <ajturner> just saw it yesterday - looks good
  490. [16:34:28] <mkaply> ajturner: and some great CSS stuff. I'm reading it now
  491. [16:34:34] <adactio> Got a copy of John's book this week: look's great.
  492. [16:36:30] <mkaply> actually, the abbr problem is much worse for geo than it is for date
  493. [16:38:02] <Azath0th> i had to smile: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/planettao/~3/112462384/
  494. [16:39:08] * tantek just realized we need new microformats t-shirts that use the "-" separator.
  495. [16:40:13] * ajturner (n=ajturner@c-68-42-68-205.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  504. [17:11:22] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  505. [17:16:21] <csarven> mkaply ajturner got a url to what you were referring to?
  506. [17:16:42] <ajturner> csarven - re what?
  507. [17:16:47] <mkaply> http://microformatique.com/book/
  508. [17:16:56] <ajturner> ah, yes, the book
  509. [17:17:15] <mkaply> Can anyone think of some clever DOM way to turn a node into a different node?
  510. [17:17:15] <ajturner> ooh, the Geo chapter is free
  511. [17:17:16] <ajturner> w00t
  512. [17:17:39] <mkaply> I'm trying to implement headers properly. Cloning the node and putting it in the TD doesn't work
  513. [17:17:46] <mkaply> since you have a TH nested in a TD
  514. [17:18:04] <mkaply> so I need some way to morph the TH into a SPAN but keep all the content and attributes
  515. [17:18:21] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-033.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  516. [17:18:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  517. [17:18:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  518. [17:18:23] <csarven> mkaply thanks
  519. [17:19:32] <mkaply> tantek: speaking of tshirts, I never got one
  520. [17:20:03] <tantek> mkaply, drat! what's your size? men's L?
  521. [17:20:10] <mkaply> tantek: XL
  522. [17:26:51] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("k lol plz thx bai")
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  526. [17:43:34] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  534. [18:04:23] <tantek> would it be too harsh to make 80/20 arguments with respect to screen readers?
  535. [18:05:05] <tantek> I for one have always tried to push things (browsers, content) towards at least being accessibility-friendly, and I still think that's a good policy.
  536. [18:05:28] <bewest> hmmm
  537. [18:05:33] <tantek> However, I'm against contorting microformats because of bugs or suboptimal behaviors in <1% marketshare browsers.
  538. [18:05:49] <tantek> so I'm for adding "-" and ":" to get a better and even *usable* result in screen readers
  539. [18:06:12] <tantek> but I'm against dropping techniques that expose bugs in <1% browsers
  540. [18:06:20] <bewest> is this in reference to something specific?
  541. [18:06:28] * adactio (n=jeremy@host86-137-14-215.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
  542. [18:06:29] <tantek> the abbr discussion on microformats-discuss
  543. [18:07:57] <tantek> I think there needs to be a balance
  544. [18:08:10] <tantek> on the one hand, being both practical, and frankly, accessibility-friendly
  545. [18:08:38] <tantek> OTOH, not allowing bugs and stubbornness of implementers to retard/slow/stop progress.
  546. [18:08:54] <AGraf``> tantek, which iso standard would the date be then?
  547. [18:09:03] <tantek> ISO8601
  548. [18:09:22] <AGraf``> fair enough
  549. [18:09:25] <AGraf``> +1
  550. [18:10:54] <bewest> yeah the dashes thing seems reasonable
  551. [18:12:38] <tantek> in ISO8601 dashes and colons are *optional*
  552. [18:12:44] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  553. [18:13:12] <AGraf``> even better then
  554. [18:13:30] <AGraf``> i didn't know that
  555. [18:14:12] <tantek> in the W3C profile/subset of ISO8601 requires "-" and ":" and four digit years.
  556. [18:14:30] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  557. [18:14:36] <tantek> so we would be effectively making that note a SHOULD for microformats
  558. [18:14:43] <tantek> which seems reasonable
  559. [18:15:00] <bewest> is there going to be a problem with exisitng content?
  560. [18:15:10] <tantek> no, because it is just a SHOULD
  561. [18:15:28] <bewest> what about for implementors of parsers?
  562. [18:15:29] <tantek> meaning content MAY still omit "-" and ":" separators per ISO8601
  563. [18:15:40] <tantek> they just keep supporting them as they always have
  564. [18:15:49] <tantek> this is no change from a parsing perspective
  565. [18:16:06] <bewest> meh... might complicate someone's regexp I guess
  566. [18:16:20] * tantek can't believe he put informative references to XHTML 1.1 in microformats specs. What was he thinking.
  567. [18:16:26] <tantek> bewest, huh?
  568. [18:16:40] <tantek> nothing has changed for parsers. they had to support both before, and they still do.
  569. [18:16:46] <bewest> hmm
  570. [18:16:51] <AGraf``> bewest: well if it was always optional...
  571. [18:17:06] <bewest> yeah
  572. [18:17:44] <bewest> sounds like a good solution
  573. [18:23:30] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) has joined #microformats
  574. [18:24:55] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=16068 * Tantek * (+30) add W3C Note Date Time to informative refs, remove XHTML 1.1 ref, note related iCal work
  575. [18:25:34] <tantek> clearly I've neglected editing hCalendar for some time, a bunch of stuff has been added/changed that probably shouldn't have been.
  576. [18:26:31] <mfbot> [[xfolk-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-issues&diff=0&oldid=16069 * Kevin Marks * (+206) Issues -
  577. [18:29:22] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) Quit ("goodbye, farewell, auf Wiedersehen")
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  579. [18:38:43] <KevinMarks> the XHTML 1.1 refs were for gRDDL placation?
  580. [18:41:11] <tantek> XHTML 1.0 is perfectly GRDDLable
  581. [18:41:28] <tantek> well maybe not "perfectly" in the general sense, but certainly no less than XHTML 1.1
  582. [18:41:45] <tantek> modularity (which is all that XHTML 1.1 really adds) doesn't affect GRDDLability AFAIK.
  583. [18:42:20] <tantek> I think I may have added those 1.1 refs when I thought 1.1 might have a future, and clearly now it is a dead end. Lesson learned.
  584. [18:43:23] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  587. [18:45:04] <KevinMarks> ah, that was it, it was the modularity stuff - I remember you talking about that now
  588. [18:54:53] <iand> xhtml 1.0 is fine for grddl
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  592. [19:00:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-feedback&diff=0&oldid=16070 * SjoerdMullender * (+614) Feedback -
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  594. [19:04:06] * SamRose (n=chatzill@brick.voyager.net) has joined #microformats
  595. [19:04:06] <jibot> SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
  596. [19:34:18] * dydimustk (n=tk@192.231.160.6) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  597. [19:39:52] <mkaply> any regexp I've seen for parsing dates handles dashes or no dashes. Personally, I normalize everything internally to have dashes
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  599. [19:48:01] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=16071 * Inkbase * (+41)
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  605. [20:34:54] <mfbot> [[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16072 * WebOrganics * (+0) Spread POSH -
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  612. [20:59:58] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  621. [21:33:04] <jibot> davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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  624. [21:54:13] <jibot> Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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