IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-04-27
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:41:24] <mfbot>
[[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16057 * WebOrganics * (+100) Resources -
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- [01:06:06] <mfbot>
[[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16058 * WebOrganics * (+123) Spread POSH -
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[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=16059 * CarlAnderson * (+466) Online Profiles -
- [01:59:00] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=16060 * CarlAnderson * (+18) Online Profiles -
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- [02:04:04] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:16:17] <mfbot>
[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16061 * WebOrganics * (+124)
- [02:19:23] <mfbot>
[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16062 * WebOrganics * (+3)
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- [02:43:45] <mfbot>
[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16063 * WebOrganics * (-5)
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- [04:59:02] <seemant>
hi all
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- [07:14:41] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:36:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [07:48:32] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [07:59:13] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [08:18:18] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [08:23:27] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=16064 * Sandy00 * (+3604) From Wikipedia -
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- [08:45:46] <jibot>
bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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- [09:30:06] <jibot>
julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for last.fm and implements microformats wherever he can
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- [09:57:19] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [10:36:19] <drewinthehead>
greetings
- [10:42:06] <drewinthehead>
Nice investigation into the ABBR pattern: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/
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- [11:36:05] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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ddfreyne is nothing
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- [13:03:32] <jibot>
bear is located near Philadelphia, PA and the build/release grunt for OSAF and an apprentice python hacker
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- [13:36:31] <Lachy>
hey, I've got a quick question about hResume and hCard...
- [13:37:36] <Lachy>
hResume says I should use <address> for my contact information, marked up using hCard. But <address> can only contain inline level markup.
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- [13:38:48] <jibot>
Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
- [13:39:12] <Kilianvalkhof>
pfew, i'm still me :)
- [13:39:33] <Lachy>
it doesn't seem right to use <span> for almost everything inside the <address>, so how am I supposed to markup all of postal address, phone numbers, email, URI, etc. in just one <address> element?
- [13:40:36] <davecardwell>
"should" not "must"
- [13:40:40] <Azath0th>
it says you "should". i guess it's for the cases where you'd just put your "fn" and "url" in there. if you want to offer more information, just use whatever tags you want
- [13:41:01] <Lachy>
ok, fair enough.
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- [14:07:46] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [14:32:03] <tantek>
Lachy, why doesn't it seem right to use <span> for almost everything inside the <address>?
- [14:34:04] <Lachy>
because the default rendering without CSS should look reasonably sensible, and shouldn't rely on <br><br> to separate blocks of contact info.
- [14:36:27] <Lachy>
tantek, see http://lachy.id.au/temp/resume.xhtml - Would you suggest I markup that hcard any differently from what I settled on?
- [14:40:09] <tantek>
for starters I'm seeing a character encoding problem with Safari 2.0
- [14:40:24] <tantek>
Lachlan Huntâs Resumé
- [14:42:43] <tantek>
Lachy, yes, you should be using <address class="vcard"> not <div class="vcard">
- [14:43:20] <tantek>
also, your formatted name is not a paragraph, so <p class="fn"> is semantic abuse
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- [14:46:48] <Lachy>
that's safari's problem. It's clearly not defaulting to UTF-8 for XHTML as it should per XML rules
- [14:47:17] <tantek>
as is the use of <p> to group tels and <p class="adr">
- [14:47:45] <Lachy>
why? That's a thematic grouping, which is a perfectly legitimate use of <p>
- [14:47:50] <tantek>
basically, don't use <p> for things that are not paragraphs
- [14:48:13] <Lachy>
I'm using XHTML5, and following the semantics defined in that spec
- [14:48:22] <Lachy>
http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#paragraph
- [14:48:36] <tantek>
it's nearly as bad as using <blockquote> for things that are not quotes
- [14:48:52] <tantek>
if XHTML5 is redefining <p>, that's a big mistake
- [14:49:56] <Lachy>
HTML4 didn't clearly define what <p> was, so it technically not redefining it
- [14:50:08] <Lachy>
it's defining it properly for the first time
- [14:50:50] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Authors_of_Pages_and_Posts
- [14:50:59] <tantek>
that's how to use <address>
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- [14:51:50] <jibot>
jcw9 is Jon Williams and can be found online at http://wizardishungry.com/blog/
- [14:52:00] <tantek>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.3.1
- [14:52:05] <tantek>
The P element represents a paragraph.
- [14:52:30] <Lachy>
all that says is "The P element represents a paragraph. It cannot contain block-level elements (including P itself)."
- [14:52:37] <tantek>
no common english definition of "paragraph" means "thematic grouping"
- [14:52:41] <Lachy>
that doesn't actually define anything sensible
- [14:52:52] <tantek>
so XHTML5 doing so is unreasonable
- [14:53:00] <tantek>
it violates the principle of least surprise
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- [14:53:13] <tantek>
it's someone's wacky opinion of what a <p> could be used for
- [14:53:23] <tantek>
and it's "semantic dilution
- [14:53:26] <tantek>
"
- [14:53:35] <Lachy>
I disagree
- [14:53:51] <tantek>
if you wanted to more clearly define "paragraph"
- [14:54:02] <tantek>
then:
- [14:54:04] <tantek>
"A paragraph is a self-contained unit of a discourse in writing dealing with a particular point or idea, or the words of an author."
- [14:54:08] <tantek>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
- [14:54:38] <tantek>
so, yes, "thematic grouping" is totally whack
- [14:54:58] <Lachy>
what benefit is there in retaining such strict, theoretical semantic purity?
- [14:55:02] <tantek>
redefining common english terms that much is both stupid and arrogant
- [14:55:19] <tantek>
wrong burden of proof
- [14:55:44] <tantek>
absent any evidence otherwise, don't needlessly change definition
- [14:56:14] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
- [14:57:41] <Lachy>
well, feel free to take up the issue with Hixie or mail the whatwg or public-html lists if you like.
- [14:58:51] <tantek>
it's even dumber than redefining "definition list" to markup dialog.
- [14:59:15] <Lachy>
HTML5 has <dialog> for that now
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- [14:59:48] <tantek>
good. what's wrong with using <span> or <div> for thematic grouping?
- [15:00:23] <Lachy>
but it also redefines <dl> as an association list, rather than attempting to retain the strict, impractical definition of "definition list"
- [15:02:21] <tantek>
anyway, you asked me how you should be using <address> and hCard and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#Authors_of_Pages_and_Posts is the answer
- [15:02:28] <KevinMarks>
no <dialog> is dumb
- [15:02:49] <AGraf``>
why is <dialog> dumb
- [15:02:52] <KevinMarks>
it redefines <dt> and <dd> as it's children
- [15:03:31] <KevinMarks>
what it uses <dd> for should be <q> and t should define a new element meaning speaker
- [15:03:33] <Lachy>
tantek, those examples don't include postal address, phone numbers or email address. <address> is inadequate for my needs if you think it is to contain all of that
- [15:03:41] <tantek>
it is
- [15:03:47] * danja_ (n=danja@host29-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
- [15:04:13] <AGraf``>
please note that the WHATWG working draft for HTML5 must not necessarily be adopted by the W3C HTML WG as a basis for the W3C HTML 5 draft (although I'm sure it will)
- [15:04:20] <KevinMarks>
it breaks the containment rules of <dl>
- [15:04:21] <Lachy>
anyway, I used address around my email address, within the hcard
- [15:04:25] * adactio (n=jeremy@host86-137-14-215.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [15:04:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o adactio
- [15:04:33] <AGraf``>
please also note that a lot of things are going to change in that draft, before it becomes a w3c recommendation
- [15:04:48] <AGraf``>
it's no use calling anything in HTML5 dumb now
- [15:05:00] <KevinMarks>
well, I pointed out <dialog> was dumb on the list, but it remains
- [15:05:11] <AGraf``>
feel free to join us in the HTML working group and make your point
- [15:05:18] <KevinMarks>
I could go stand over hixie
- [15:05:29] <tantek>
I'm just surprised that such obvious mistakes are being made
- [15:05:47] <KevinMarks>
I made the point in whatwg
- [15:05:52] <tantek>
Lachy, AGraf, it's not reasonable to ask for everyone to participate - that doesn't scale
- [15:06:00] <AGraf``>
just as a sidenote,.. i'm surprised too
- [15:06:05] <AGraf``>
tantek: no of course not
- [15:06:11] <tantek>
rather, you should consider re-assessing your reasoning, and fight things which are obviously wrong
- [15:06:37] <AGraf``>
tantek: but i believe you and KevinMarks are both very competent and *should* be on that list of participants
- [15:06:41] <Lachy>
tantek, if you have some feedback about HTML5, it's up to you to contribute it to the write channels.
- [15:06:41] <tantek>
like p->thematic grouping. totally ridiculous.
- [15:06:42] <KevinMarks>
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2007-April/010863.html
- [15:06:48] <tantek>
Agraf, not everyone can do everything
- [15:06:54] <AGraf``>
i realize that
- [15:07:05] <tantek>
I have more things to work on in microformats than will let me ever participate directly on HTML5
- [15:07:45] <AGraf``>
that's my problem too... i'm participating as a DERI member and I can only contribute like 2 hours a month to the w3C wg
- [15:07:56] <AGraf``>
there's always more than enough work
- [15:08:21] <Lachy>
no-one is saying you have to be very active all the time, you're welcome to just send 1 mail and leave if you like
- [15:09:18] <AGraf``>
also, if people would come up with a list of problems in the current draft, i'm sure i could make a point in the WG
- [15:09:25] <KevinMarks>
Lachy, sent several
- [15:09:28] <AGraf``>
people that actually know what they talk about, that is
- [15:09:46] * davecardwell (n=davecard@host217-44-64-173.range217-44.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("http://davecardwell.co.uk/")
- [15:09:59] <tantek>
Lachy, this channel is logged with permalinks, please feel free to pass on my feedback accordingly.
- [15:10:22] <Lachy>
sure, I'll point Hixie to it
- [15:10:37] <Lachy>
(he'll probably read it, since he's in here anyway)
- [15:10:40] <AGraf``>
tantek: I'm collecting issues anyway... I'll include your points as well if thats ok
- [15:10:45] <AGraf``>
especially because i agree
- [15:10:55] <tantek>
and if he is the one who had the arrogance to redefine what a "paragraph" is, please smack him with a wet trout (figuratively speaking of course ;)
- [15:11:11] <KevinMarks>
can you include my issue with <dialog> redefining <dt> and <dd> abusively?
- [15:11:18] <Lachy>
well, he's the editor, so yes, it was him
- [15:11:28] <AGraf``>
KevinMarks: i will :>
- [15:12:13] <tantek>
Lachy, editors often just clean up content from authors, or are just a conduit for decisions made elsewhere
- [15:12:13] <Lachy>
KevinMarks, dt and dd still (sort of) retain their meaning from HTML4 when used within <dl>
- [15:12:29] <AGraf``>
tantek: however, i don't see the problem with <p>
- [15:12:34] <Lachy>
tantek, Hixie is the only author/editor of that spec
- [15:12:53] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [15:13:00] <Lachy>
atleast until Dave Hyatt becomes an editor when the spec is accepted to the HTMLWG
- [15:13:03] <AGraf``>
tantek: aside from the wording "thematic grouping"
- [15:13:09] <AGraf``>
because that's just wrong
- [15:13:12] <tantek>
hence I don't necessarily conclude that the responsibility for any particular portion of content is that of the editor
- [15:13:46] <Lachy>
I don't understand your problem with thematic grouping. A paragraph, even in the traditional sense, is just a group of related sentences with a common theme
- [15:14:04] <tantek>
AGraf, right, and it calls into question the assumption of a "benevolent expert dictator"
- [15:14:16] * Linmic (i=Linmicya@nova.mis.yzu.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
- [15:14:29] <KevinMarks>
but making them mean something else within <dialog> is abusive, and making them able to appear outside <dl> breaks a lot of of existing parser assumptions
- [15:14:41] <tantek>
Lachy, and your use in the hCard includes no sentences.
- [15:14:54] <tantek>
so you are semantically abusing <p>
- [15:15:01] <Lachy>
no
- [15:15:06] <AGraf``>
Lachy: thematic grouping of sentences, yes
- [15:15:16] <AGraf``>
but not just general "thematic grouping" of anything
- [15:15:17] <tantek>
why do you wish to redefine paragraph?
- [15:15:17] <tantek>
where is that motivation coming from?
- [15:15:22] <tantek>
that's what i'm calling arrogance
- [15:15:29] <Lachy>
what element would you suggest instead?
- [15:15:36] <AGraf``>
<group>?
- [15:15:39] <AGraf``>
or whatever
- [15:15:39] <tantek>
<span> inside <address>
- [15:15:51] <AGraf``>
just not <p> to group arbitrary things
- [15:16:32] <Lachy>
with one address per item? e.g. <address>(phone number</addresss> <address>(postal address)</> ...
- [15:16:50] <AGraf``>
why?
- [15:16:57] <AGraf``>
you are defining an address
- [15:17:03] <AGraf``>
of a person or an organization
- [15:17:11] <AGraf``>
the adress includes several elements
- [15:17:17] <Lachy>
or <address class="vcard"><span>... everythign....</span></address>
- [15:17:26] <AGraf``>
like street address, stret number, and so on
- [15:17:27] <AGraf``>
yes
- [15:18:12] <AGraf``>
<address class="vcard"><span class="...">text</span><span class="...">text</span></span>
- [15:18:42] <Lachy>
right. <span> is a semantically meaningless *inline* element, I am not going to use span to group *blocks* of information. That's just wrong
- [15:19:19] <AGraf``>
why would for example a street name be a block?
- [15:19:51] <Lachy>
the whole postal address is a block, the street name within can use a span
- [15:20:10] <Lachy>
see http://lachy.id.au/temp/resume.xhtml
- [15:21:42] <AGraf``>
then use <div>?
- [15:22:03] <Lachy>
why? I'm happy with <p>
- [15:22:42] <AGraf``>
it's not a paragraph though
- [15:23:05] <Lachy>
I'd rather not continue this disucssion if the arguments are simply based on theoretical semantic purity. Welcome to reality!
- [15:23:14] * AlexanderGraf (n=Ashe@213.47.199.86) has joined #microformats
- [15:23:15] <jibot>
AlexanderGraf is a designer and webdeveloper from Innsbruck, Austria who writes on http://www.aetherworld.org/ and works for DERI Innsbruck (http://www.deri.org/)
- [15:23:49] <AGraf``>
ok that's ridiculous... then we can also go back to using tables for layout, haha.
- [15:23:52] <AGraf``>
but as you wish
- [15:24:16] <Lachy>
now, that's just stretching what I said a little too far
- [15:24:28] <AGraf``>
:) like you did
- [15:25:41] <AGraf``>
anyway, I'll remember what you said and will attend reality now
- [15:25:45] <KevinMarks>
table is a semantic grouping in blocks
- [15:25:52] * hlb (i=lbhsiuh@alumni.csie.nctu.edu.tw) Quit ("leaving")
- [15:26:05] <Lachy>
table is for tabular data. that hasn't changed
- [15:26:22] * hlb (i=lbhsiuh@alumni.csie.nctu.edu.tw) has joined #microformats
- [15:26:24] <KevinMarks>
and p is for paragraphs
- [15:26:30] * danja_ (n=danja@host29-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [15:26:47] <Lachy>
right, it just depends on your definition of "paragraph"
- [15:26:54] <KevinMarks>
are you labelling the fields?
- [15:27:13] <Lachy>
KevinMarks, what do you mean?
- [15:27:42] <KevinMarks>
street: 37 blah city: blahtown
- [15:27:54] <Lachy>
no, that would be silly
- [15:28:23] <tantek>
Lachy, your point about theoretical argument is correct, you're just wrong about burden of proof
- [15:28:41] <KevinMarks>
hm, no <div> in address? that's annoying
- [15:28:58] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD4E12.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:29:01] <Lachy>
what exactly do you need me to prove?
- [15:29:56] <Lachy>
KevinMarks, why would I want to use more divs?
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- [15:32:14] * danja_ (n=danja@host16-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
- [15:32:48] <tantek>
Lachy, the theoretical is your expansion of the semantics of <p>
- [15:33:04] <tantek>
not the disproof of
- [15:33:07] <mkaply>
wow. that dialog /dt /dd thing is dumb
- [15:33:08] <Lachy>
tantek, even the definition from wikipedia that you quoted doesn't really support your case. Nowhere in it did it say that it the discourse has to be prose.
- [15:33:25] <tantek>
Lachy, it is you that have to make the case for change
- [15:33:36] <tantek>
that's how burden of proof works
- [15:35:17] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=16065 * Tantek * (+237) hCard examples - add an extended example to contact info for a page with postal address, phone numbers, email address
- [15:35:24] <Lachy>
I have already. The segments of a postal address, for example, is just text dealing "dealing with a particular idea" (an address, in this case).
- [15:35:45] <tantek>
paragraphs are not segments
- [15:36:01] <Lachy>
I didn't say they were, you misunderstood what I wrote
- [15:36:34] <Lachy>
by segments, I was referring to the street address, suburb, state, etc.
- [15:36:50] <AGraf``>
Lachy: A streetname is not commonly defined as a paragraph though, as i already mentioned
- [15:37:02] <Lachy>
collectively, they are thematically grouped into a paragpah
- [15:37:09] <tantek>
I still don't understand why are you motivated to stretch the definition of paragraph so much beyond what reasonable educated folks would consider a paragraph to be.
- [15:37:16] <Lachy>
AGraf``, I never said a *streetname* was a paragraph!
- [15:37:18] <tantek>
I think you've convinced yourself with theoretical arguments.
- [15:37:26] <Lachy>
nonsense
- [15:37:26] <tantek>
to do something which is totally unreasonable
- [15:37:35] <Lachy>
how is it unreasonable?
- [15:37:38] <mkaply>
If you were formatting an address in Microsoft Word, would you mark it as a paragraph?
- [15:38:21] <tantek>
it is unreasonable because it violates the expectations of what people in general think of what a paragraph is
- [15:38:23] <Lachy>
well, MS Word doesn't really distinguish between paragraphs and other blocks of text particularly well
- [15:38:41] <tantek>
for purely theoretical reasons
- [15:38:49] <AGraf``>
Lachy: would you do it in LaTeX?
- [15:39:05] <Lachy>
I don't know LaTeX, so no comment
- [15:40:16] <Lachy>
tantek, my point is that your purely theoretical reasons have no basis in reality for HTML.
- [15:40:18] <tantek>
it is so dumb as to not be worth arguing, if you wish to continue fooling yourself into thinking that expanding <p> is reasonable, you may go ahead, but don't expect typical folks to take you seriously
- [15:40:32] <tantek>
Lachy, they are not theoretical, they are customary definitions
- [15:40:33] <Lachy>
whatever
- [15:40:41] <tantek>
e.g Wikipedia reference
- [15:40:52] <tantek>
and it is arrogant of you to expand the definition as such
- [15:40:57] <Lachy>
and I already showed that the wikipedia doesn't wholly support your case
- [15:40:58] <tantek>
or Hixie for that matter
- [15:41:35] <tantek>
I don't have a case, you're the one who has the burden of proof. The point is that the wikipedia definition disproves your assertion of "thematic grouping"
- [15:41:50] <Lachy>
no, it is arrogant of you to hang on to theoretically pure semantics as the basis of your argument, instead of being more pragmatic about the issue
- [15:41:58] <tantek>
if you want to call the wikipedia definition theoretical, and claim that you know better, then yes, go ahead, that just demonstrates your arrogance
- [15:42:49] <Lachy>
no need to start flaming
- [15:42:50] <tantek>
it's not arrogant to hang onto the definition in HTML4, and then use a accepted references for further english definitions, it's conservative and reasonable.
- [15:44:14] <tantek>
Lachy, if your way of thinking reflects a methodology behind changes in HTML5, then there will likely be many more problems (read: changes that seem like a surprise to reasonable people), and it doesn't bode well for HTML5
- [15:45:18] <mkaply>
tantek: some would claim microformats are abusing abbr. So be careful :)
- [15:45:19] <Lachy>
changes may be surprising to some, that's just a fact of life
- [15:45:28] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54bd4898.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [15:45:33] * Lachy has claimed that in the past!
- [15:46:00] <tantek>
mkaply, microformats *are* stretching abbr a bit - that's acknowledged as an issue, and a tradeoff for making something work in existing HTML4
- [15:46:16] <tantek>
now *that* is something I'd like to see a new element for in HTML5, so we wouldn't have to stretch abbr
- [15:46:43] <mkaply>
The other disadvantage to using paragraph like that is that styling you intend to only affect "true" paragraphs will also affect your address
- [15:46:49] <adactio>
Speaking of abbr-stretching (and in a subtle move to change the subject), has everyone seen this: http://www.webstandards.org/2007/04/27/haccessibility/
- [15:47:03] <tantek>
and the use of abbr as such was done with great deliberation and consciousness, not simple redefinition as if it was always that way.
- [15:47:18] <Lachy>
well, HTML5 is slightly extending the meaning of <p> beyond the definition of "paragraph". That's acknowledged, but not considered an issue
- [15:48:38] <tantek>
I consider it an issue and a mistake. Please don't redefine common english terms to mean things that typical definitions don't support, and that would surprise a typical HTML author.
- [15:48:45] <Lachy>
actually, It'd be better to say it's *refining* the meaning to be more practical
- [15:49:08] <Lachy>
we're not redefining common english terms at all, just refining the meaning of <p>
- [15:49:13] <tantek>
unnecessary, div and span can be used for semantic grouping
- [15:49:25] <tantek>
it's an unnecessary change
- [15:49:29] <Lachy>
<div> and <span> are, by definition, non-semantic
- [15:49:36] <tantek>
mkaply's practical argument is a good one too
- [15:49:46] <tantek>
it demonstrates why using p for things *other* than paragraphs is silly
- [15:49:58] <tantek>
and violates the expectation set in HTML4
- [15:50:04] <tantek>
which is that p is paragraph
- [15:50:13] <Lachy>
mkaply'
- [15:50:21] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
- [15:50:24] <Lachy>
mkaply's styling argument could equally apply to <div>
- [15:50:39] <mkaply>
that's why use add semantic information to divs to give them context.
- [15:50:51] <mkaply>
div class="address">
- [15:50:58] <mkaply>
div id="my_address">
- [15:51:05] <Lachy>
I prefer <p class="adr">
- [15:51:29] <mkaply>
<p class="adr"> would look like this
- [15:51:50] <Lachy>
you're not going to like this either: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-address ...
- [15:52:00] <Lachy>
"The address element must not be used to represent arbitrary addresses (e.g. postal addresses), unless those addresses are contact information for the section. (The p element is the appropriate element for marking up such addresses.)"
- [15:52:40] <mkaply>
<p class="adr">I live at <span class="street-address">123 anywhere street</span> in the <span class="country">United States</span></p>
- [15:52:57] <mkaply>
That's a paragraph address if you want to use it that way
- [15:53:14] <Lachy>
yeah, just s/I live at// and s/in the// and that's what I have
- [15:53:34] <AGraf``>
Lachy: "(The p element is the appropriate element for marking up such addresses.)"
- [15:53:40] <AGraf``>
that's just silly
- [15:53:42] <Lachy>
you're claming that a paragraph can only contain *prose*. That is wrong
- [15:54:27] <AGraf``>
what benefit (semantically) would I have from marking up my own address with <address> and for example yours on the same page with <p>
- [15:55:37] <Lachy>
actually, that's retaining the HTML4 semantics, which said that <address> was only for author's contact information. <address> has never been for generic addresses
- [15:55:48] <mkaply>
tantek: Why doesn't microformats use the title attribute for spans and divs?
- [15:56:08] <AGraf``>
if i remember correctly, that was a "should"
- [15:56:41] <tantek>
mkaply, because that would be less visible
- [15:56:46] <tantek>
Lachy, at least that we can agree on.
- [15:56:53] <tantek>
even if the element is misnamed
- [15:57:05] <Lachy>
actually, in typical HTML4 style, <address> wasn't really defined well at all
- [15:57:13] <mkaply>
tantek: But the idea behind the abbr pattern was to hide the machine date anyway, why not hide it in a span or div vs an abbr?
- [15:57:27] <Lachy>
it says "The ADDRESS element may be used by authors to supply contact information for a document or a major part of a document such as a form."
- [15:57:33] <tantek>
because that is less semantic
- [15:57:53] <tantek>
abbr reflects the common usage of dates & times by humans, which is in abbreviated form
- [15:58:40] <Lachy>
what definition of "abbreviated form" are you using to make that claim?
- [15:58:56] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-71-198-189-81.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [15:59:08] <Lachy>
luckily, HTML5 has <time> to resolve this issue
- [15:59:08] <tantek>
that wasp post is incredibly flawed, I communicated my objections to James Craig in person at SXSW. he's using strawmen examples, not typical examples, and the <object> solution we already know to be unworkable due to the fact that each <object> instantiates a new "browser" instance in various browser implementations.
- [15:59:12] <mkaply>
ISO dates can provide more information than what they are "abbreviating". which is not technically an abbreviation :)
- [15:59:33] <tantek>
Lachy, when someone says "5pm" they typically mean "5pm that day"
- [15:59:39] <tantek>
5pm is an abbreviation
- [15:59:46] <tantek>
for the meaning
- [16:00:17] <tantek>
FYI: re: <address> and hCard
- [16:00:20] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-faq#Should_I_use_ADDRESS_for_hCards
- [16:01:36] <mfbot>
[[brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=16066 * Tantek * (+9) add TOC
- [16:01:45] <Lachy>
now, if I start arguing like you were with paragraph, I can claim that "A shortened form of a word or phrase used chiefly in writing to represent the complete form"
- [16:01:46] <Lachy>
http://www.answers.com/abbreviation
- [16:01:56] <tantek>
Lachy, FYI re: burden of proof: http://microformats.org/wiki/brainstorming#Burden_of_Proof
- [16:02:29] <tantek>
Lachy, yes, it is acknowledged that datetime design pattern usage of abbr is stretching it - please see my comment above.
- [16:02:47] <tantek>
It is done for practical reasons, and not without exploring other alternatives first
- [16:03:24] <tantek>
rather than just a "whim" of an editor (which appears to be what happened with p / thematic gropuing)
- [16:03:25] <Lachy>
well, it's certainly better than the <object> idea you had for it at one stage :-)
- [16:04:01] <mkaply>
I'm sorry, not to be dense. What is the difference between <span class="dtstart" title="ISODATE">May 3</span> and
- [16:04:02] <tantek>
iteration is a key part of microformats methodology :)
- [16:04:09] <mkaply>
<abbr class="dtstart" title="ISODATE">May 3</abbr>
- [16:04:27] <tantek>
mkaply, abbr defines the semantic that the title is an expansion of the contents of the element
- [16:04:33] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@p54BD6F59.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:04:34] <tantek>
span has no such semantic on title
- [16:04:41] <mkaply>
ah
- [16:04:46] <tantek>
*big* difference
- [16:04:57] <Lachy>
what practical difference is there?
- [16:05:53] <tantek>
without practical reason to the contrary, we follow the HTML4 spec for semantics as best and as precisely as possible
- [16:06:08] <mkaply>
the accessibility thing is huge though. And would hinder adoption of microformats in a corporate/govt arenas
- [16:06:21] <tantek>
the practical reason is that it is a waste of time to re-argue established specifications unless you have a specific practical reason for doing so
- [16:06:42] <adactio>
I'm actually drafting an email to this about this right now. I completely agree that abbr is *semantically* the correct element to use and that using the title attribute this way on other elements is semantically incorrect but I think that from a practical standpoint we need to expand the pattern to other elements to solve the practical problems in screenreaders.
- [16:06:43] <tantek>
hence: http://microformats.org/wiki/brainstorming#Burden_of_Proof
- [16:06:54] <tantek>
mkaply, there are improvements we can make the render the strawmen examples in that post moot
- [16:07:08] <tantek>
e.g. using "-" to separate the YMD components
- [16:07:21] <tantek>
we should do that in our examples, and in practice
- [16:07:23] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
- [16:07:23] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [16:07:25] <mkaply>
Are you sure the screen reader reads it correctly in those cases?
- [16:07:29] <tantek>
2007-04-27 rather than 20070427
- [16:07:41] <tantek>
mkaply, according to James Craig it does a much better job
- [16:08:05] <tantek>
it reads it as "two thousand seven [pause] four [pause] twenty-seven"
- [16:08:13] <tantek>
or rather "they" read them as
- [16:08:33] <tantek>
instead of twenty-million etc.
- [16:08:47] <tantek>
similarly with the time component
- [16:08:48] <mkaply>
but that's still not useful. You would want the contents of the abbr read
- [16:08:52] <mkaply>
in that case.
- [16:09:10] <mkaply>
For screen readers, they assume (per the spec) that the title of the abbr can be read in the same context of the abbr
- [16:09:11] <tantek>
using ":" for separation helps as well
- [16:09:11] <tantek>
mkaply, not necessarily
- [16:09:11] <tantek>
depends on your cultural bias
- [16:09:21] <tantek>
4/5 means something different to Americans vs. Europeans
- [16:09:54] <tantek>
2007-04-05 is more likely to be unambiguously understood across cultures than 4/5
- [16:10:58] <tantek>
mkaply, and the other thing is that such "more formatted" ISO dates with "-" and ":" are trivial for screen readers to recognize, and the read according to the *user's* datetime reading preferences
- [16:11:12] <tantek>
which results in an even *better* solution than reading the contents of the abbr
- [16:11:21] <tantek>
because then the user hears it as they are used to it
- [16:11:26] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-e0867f818273c668) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [16:11:26] <tantek>
perhaps even in their own natural language
- [16:11:28] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
- [16:12:09] <tantek>
so while the abbr date-time-design-pattern may be causing a little bit of pain now, it actually enables *much* better accessibility with just a *tiny* bit of work on the part of the screen readers
- [16:12:26] <tantek>
that's the real reason why I'm not too worried about this.
- [16:12:37] <tantek>
screen readers are just software. software improves over time.
- [16:12:50] <mkaply>
tantek: You clearly have never worked with screen reader vendors
- [16:13:15] <mkaply>
:)
- [16:13:16] <tantek>
mkaply, screen readers *have* improved in the past yes? therefore there is evidence they will improve in the future.
- [16:13:33] <tantek>
especially given incentive to do so (an opportunity to differentiate themselves from competitors)
- [16:14:27] <mkaply>
People don't switch from one screen reader to the other based on features. You pick one in the beginning and pretty much stick to it the rest of your life
- [16:14:41] <mkaply>
because moving between them is difficuly
- [16:15:12] <tantek>
but presumably you upgrade right?
- [16:15:16] <tantek>
and there are always new useres
- [16:15:43] <tantek>
any screen reader that stays static will eventually lose market share to new users using other screen readers
- [16:15:54] <adactio>
But Tantek, one of the fundamental tenets of microformats is that they work *today*, not at some future theoretical point (a la some W3C technologies).
- [16:15:55] <tantek>
even if every user choose their screen reader only once
- [16:16:14] <adactio>
That's why I think we need to take some measures now, even if they are just stop-gap measures.
- [16:16:41] <tantek>
adactio, correct, and such measures are to encourage "-" and ":" separation
- [16:16:53] <tantek>
I believe that to be sufficient to minimize the pain for now, while enabling a huge leap forward in datetime accessibility
- [16:17:08] <adactio>
I'm adding a comment to that effect to the WaSP post as we speak. :-)
- [16:17:18] <tantek>
microformats are about making things work today in a way which enables and empowers lots of new uses
- [16:18:09] <tantek>
you get at least a little immediate benefit from microformats (which is important), *and* significant medium/longterm benefit as more and more applications, services, and tools (like Operator) are developed
- [16:18:20] <mkaply>
John Allsopp is tricky. He's teaching me CSS in a microformats book
- [16:19:56] * mattis1 (n=mattis^@p54BD4E12.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
- [16:22:31] <mkaply>
If any of you guys are interested in contributing to dicussion about the UI of microformats in Firefox 3 (and operator)
- [16:22:48] <mkaply>
https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?board=4.0
- [16:22:57] <mkaply>
in particular https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php/topic,77.0.html
- [16:23:49] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=16067 * Tantek * (+83) Reverted edit of Kwilson, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [16:32:27] * mkaply really needs some UI folks to help think through microformats in the browser
- [16:33:45] <ajturner>
mkaply - you referring to the new FoE book?
- [16:33:58] <mkaply>
ajturner: yep :)
- [16:34:09] <ajturner>
just saw it yesterday - looks good
- [16:34:28] <mkaply>
ajturner: and some great CSS stuff. I'm reading it now
- [16:34:34] <adactio>
Got a copy of John's book this week: look's great.
- [16:36:30] <mkaply>
actually, the abbr problem is much worse for geo than it is for date
- [16:38:02] <Azath0th>
i had to smile: http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/planettao/~3/112462384/
- [16:39:08] * tantek just realized we need new microformats t-shirts that use the "-" separator.
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- [17:11:22] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [17:16:21] <csarven>
mkaply ajturner got a url to what you were referring to?
- [17:16:42] <ajturner>
csarven - re what?
- [17:16:47] <mkaply>
http://microformatique.com/book/
- [17:16:56] <ajturner>
ah, yes, the book
- [17:17:15] <mkaply>
Can anyone think of some clever DOM way to turn a node into a different node?
- [17:17:15] <ajturner>
ooh, the Geo chapter is free
- [17:17:16] <ajturner>
w00t
- [17:17:39] <mkaply>
I'm trying to implement headers properly. Cloning the node and putting it in the TD doesn't work
- [17:17:46] <mkaply>
since you have a TH nested in a TD
- [17:18:04] <mkaply>
so I need some way to morph the TH into a SPAN but keep all the content and attributes
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- [17:18:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:18:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:18:23] <csarven>
mkaply thanks
- [17:19:32] <mkaply>
tantek: speaking of tshirts, I never got one
- [17:20:03] <tantek>
mkaply, drat! what's your size? men's L?
- [17:20:10] <mkaply>
tantek: XL
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- [17:43:34] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [18:04:23] <tantek>
would it be too harsh to make 80/20 arguments with respect to screen readers?
- [18:05:05] <tantek>
I for one have always tried to push things (browsers, content) towards at least being accessibility-friendly, and I still think that's a good policy.
- [18:05:28] <bewest>
hmmm
- [18:05:33] <tantek>
However, I'm against contorting microformats because of bugs or suboptimal behaviors in <1% marketshare browsers.
- [18:05:49] <tantek>
so I'm for adding "-" and ":" to get a better and even *usable* result in screen readers
- [18:06:12] <tantek>
but I'm against dropping techniques that expose bugs in <1% browsers
- [18:06:20] <bewest>
is this in reference to something specific?
- [18:06:28] * adactio (n=jeremy@host86-137-14-215.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
- [18:06:29] <tantek>
the abbr discussion on microformats-discuss
- [18:07:57] <tantek>
I think there needs to be a balance
- [18:08:10] <tantek>
on the one hand, being both practical, and frankly, accessibility-friendly
- [18:08:38] <tantek>
OTOH, not allowing bugs and stubbornness of implementers to retard/slow/stop progress.
- [18:08:54] <AGraf``>
tantek, which iso standard would the date be then?
- [18:09:03] <tantek>
ISO8601
- [18:09:22] <AGraf``>
fair enough
- [18:09:25] <AGraf``>
+1
- [18:10:54] <bewest>
yeah the dashes thing seems reasonable
- [18:12:38] <tantek>
in ISO8601 dashes and colons are *optional*
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- [18:13:12] <AGraf``>
even better then
- [18:13:30] <AGraf``>
i didn't know that
- [18:14:12] <tantek>
in the W3C profile/subset of ISO8601 requires "-" and ":" and four digit years.
- [18:14:30] * bear is now known as bear_afk
- [18:14:36] <tantek>
so we would be effectively making that note a SHOULD for microformats
- [18:14:43] <tantek>
which seems reasonable
- [18:15:00] <bewest>
is there going to be a problem with exisitng content?
- [18:15:10] <tantek>
no, because it is just a SHOULD
- [18:15:28] <bewest>
what about for implementors of parsers?
- [18:15:29] <tantek>
meaning content MAY still omit "-" and ":" separators per ISO8601
- [18:15:40] <tantek>
they just keep supporting them as they always have
- [18:15:49] <tantek>
this is no change from a parsing perspective
- [18:16:06] <bewest>
meh... might complicate someone's regexp I guess
- [18:16:20] * tantek can't believe he put informative references to XHTML 1.1 in microformats specs. What was he thinking.
- [18:16:26] <tantek>
bewest, huh?
- [18:16:40] <tantek>
nothing has changed for parsers. they had to support both before, and they still do.
- [18:16:46] <bewest>
hmm
- [18:16:51] <AGraf``>
bewest: well if it was always optional...
- [18:17:06] <bewest>
yeah
- [18:17:44] <bewest>
sounds like a good solution
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- [18:24:55] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=16068 * Tantek * (+30) add W3C Note Date Time to informative refs, remove XHTML 1.1 ref, note related iCal work
- [18:25:34] <tantek>
clearly I've neglected editing hCalendar for some time, a bunch of stuff has been added/changed that probably shouldn't have been.
- [18:26:31] <mfbot>
[[xfolk-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-issues&diff=0&oldid=16069 * Kevin Marks * (+206) Issues -
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- [18:38:43] <KevinMarks>
the XHTML 1.1 refs were for gRDDL placation?
- [18:41:11] <tantek>
XHTML 1.0 is perfectly GRDDLable
- [18:41:28] <tantek>
well maybe not "perfectly" in the general sense, but certainly no less than XHTML 1.1
- [18:41:45] <tantek>
modularity (which is all that XHTML 1.1 really adds) doesn't affect GRDDLability AFAIK.
- [18:42:20] <tantek>
I think I may have added those 1.1 refs when I thought 1.1 might have a future, and clearly now it is a dead end. Lesson learned.
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- [18:45:04] <KevinMarks>
ah, that was it, it was the modularity stuff - I remember you talking about that now
- [18:54:53] <iand>
xhtml 1.0 is fine for grddl
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- [19:00:18] <mfbot>
[[hcard-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-feedback&diff=0&oldid=16070 * SjoerdMullender * (+614) Feedback -
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- [19:04:06] <jibot>
SamRose is found at http://smartmobs.com, http://communitywiki.org, http://blog.p2pfoundation.com, http://barcampbank.com, and http://cooperationcommons.com
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- [19:39:52] <mkaply>
any regexp I've seen for parsing dates handles dashes or no dashes. Personally, I normalize everything internally to have dashes
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[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=16071 * Inkbase * (+41)
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[[posh]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=posh&diff=0&oldid=16072 * WebOrganics * (+0) Spread POSH -
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danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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davecardwell is Dave Cardwell of http://davecardwell.co.uk/. He designs webs and generally geeks about in York, England.
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Kilianvalkhof is Kilian Valkhof, he makes websites and blogs at http://kilianvalkhof.com
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