IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-05-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:02:40] * [g2] (n=tom@nslu2-linux/g2) has joined #microformats
- [00:04:28] <[g2]>
tantek: nice job on the hcard page
- [00:04:41] <tantek>
g2, thanks!@
- [00:08:24] <[g2]>
tantek: you guys are/were ahead of the curve
- [00:14:45] <[g2]>
seemant: it's been a very long time :)
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- [00:32:26] <seemant>
hi [g2]
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- [00:49:22] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16806 * WebOrganics * (+17)
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- [00:52:18] <logankoester>
This may be the wrong channel to ask this, but what's the best way to indicate that a link is leading back to the designer's portfolio? What about contributers?
- [00:54:17] <tuxmack>
what designer/contributers?
- [01:00:22] <logankoester>
The designer of the site in question
- [01:10:34] <tuxmack>
oh ok
- [01:10:46] <tuxmack>
would rel-boomark be appropriate? ?
- [01:11:37] <tuxmack>
and use a title of something like "Site's designer" or something?
- [01:25:34] * tuxmack (n=tuxmack@216.186.174.142) has left #microformats
- [01:30:34] <logankoester>
I'm not sure bookmark makes sense
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- [02:14:29] <[g2]>
seemant: it's been forever since the embedded gentoo days
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- [02:20:22] <minddog_>
heyas
- [02:22:53] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=16807 * AdamBallai * (+46)
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- [02:36:33] <seemant>
[g2]: yes indeed
- [02:37:49] <[g2]>
seemant: it's nice to see you and I hope all is well
- [02:38:12] <[g2]>
last we chatted you were the gentoo dev liason :)
- [02:39:06] <seemant>
[g2]: all is well enough, thanks :) you?
- [02:40:47] <[g2]>
good thx. I've been doing a bunch of XScale stuff with nslu2-linux and other things the last several years
- [02:41:26] <seemant>
ahh I see
- [02:41:34] <seemant>
sounds like fun
- [02:41:38] <[g2]>
:)
- [02:42:21] <[g2]>
so now I'm ready to sync all me data linux land and I wound up here in mircoformats :)
- [02:42:40] <[g2]>
I was testing the 3.0 conduit a little today for tomboy
- [02:42:56] <[g2]>
or maybe it was 0.3 :)
- [02:42:58] <seemant>
aha
- [02:43:18] <seemant>
a friend of mine introduced me to microformats when I redid my blog
- [02:43:22] <seemant>
which is why I'm in here
- [02:43:26] <[g2]>
I'm at the level of moving my data around transparently
- [02:43:32] <seemant>
nice
- [02:43:34] <[g2]>
cool...
- [02:43:39] <[g2]>
url for your blog ?
- [02:48:49] <minddog_>
I stumbled here reading a news site about firefox and microformats =)
- [02:49:11] <minddog_>
Reminds me of the old rdf days
- [02:49:25] <[g2]>
vi
- [02:49:58] <[g2]>
& BBSes
- [02:50:01] <minddog_>
I'm doing some research on the hListing spec
- [02:50:17] <minddog_>
Is anyone using this yet?
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- [03:05:22] <tantek>
minddog, take a look at the Examples in the Wild section. Edgeio for example is both crawling and publishing.
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- [03:13:47] <minddog_>
tantek: thanks, looking at integrating this into our commercial software
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- [04:51:05] <mfbot>
[[User:BruceDailey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BruceDailey&diff=0&oldid=16808 * BruceDailey * (+109)
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- [04:58:51] <mfbot>
[[User:BruceDailey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BruceDailey&diff=0&oldid=16809 * BruceDailey * (+16)
- [04:59:43] <[g2]>
botsnack mfbot
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- [07:17:44] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16810 * WebOrganics * (-8538)
- [07:18:46] <mfbot>
[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16811 * WebOrganics * (-55)
- [07:22:51] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16812 * WebOrganics * (+8558) hSpiff 0.0.4
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- [09:44:09] <mfbot>
[[plant-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=16813 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) typo
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- [10:57:31] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [11:42:33] <jibot>
Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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- [11:59:32] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [12:01:08] <jibot>
pawlik is Maciej Pawlowski, Poland (mpawlowski.pl)
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- [12:06:45] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [13:09:07] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [13:09:16] <mkaply>
tantek: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think39.html?ca=dnw-820
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- [14:16:37] <jibot>
ddfreyne is nothing
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- [14:57:19] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [15:12:15] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [15:33:15] <tantek>
mkaply, the following is false when actually evaluated to any depth: "XML is supported by most user agents these days"
- [15:33:35] <tantek>
this is one of the biggest myths promoted by the XML crowd
- [15:33:36] <mkaply>
tantek: yeah. I thought that article was very shallow and poorly written
- [15:34:03] <tantek>
XML, to the extent that it supposedly has capabilities matching those of HTML, is NOT supported by most user agents.
- [15:34:17] <tantek>
nevermind does not have test suits for equivalent functionality
- [15:34:25] <tantek>
suites even ;)
- [15:35:03] <tantek>
nevermind does not even have specifications for some of that functionality, e.g. a <script> tag that would work in any XML vocabulary that a "generic" XML processor could execute.
- [15:35:58] <tantek>
XML frankly, has failed the real world rich content test
- [15:36:00] <tantek>
XML+CSS is inadequately defined
- [15:36:10] <tantek>
XML with namespaces + CSS is even more poorly defined
- [15:36:14] <tantek>
this is what the XML doesn't get
- [15:36:21] <tantek>
XML crowd doesn't get
- [15:37:12] <tantek>
XML does not have the forms features of HTML
- [15:37:25] <tantek>
What XForms you say? XForms is NOT supported by most user agents. Try again.
- [15:37:54] <tantek>
XML does not even have the hyperlink features of HTML
- [15:38:11] <tantek>
What XLink you say? XLink is NOT supported by most user agents.
- [15:39:01] <tantek>
Anyone know how you do image maps without XML? No, not defined?
- [15:39:56] <tantek>
if your technology does not allow for *easy*, *interoperable*, *publishing*, of richly *stylable*, *interactable* (links, forms), *dynamic* (client side scripting), in a way that *is supported by most browsers* then your technology is inferior to HTML.
- [15:40:33] <tantek>
... *dynamic* (client sides scriptable) *CONTENT*, in a way...
- [15:41:17] <mkaply>
tantek: you're preaching to the choir here :)
- [15:41:27] <tantek>
I'm giving ammunition to the troops.
- [15:42:42] <tantek>
The above is why XML is not a serious pragmatic alternative solution to publishing content on the Web, and OTOH, Adobe/Macromedia *Flash*, is.
- [15:43:45] <tantek>
oh except that Flash is not indexed by search engines, whereas POSH is, which also makes Flash unsuitable for any website where you expect your content to be *found* and *indexed* by search engines and thus receive traffic from them.
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- [15:46:08] <mfbot>
[[xml]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xml * Tantek * (+23)
- [15:47:39] <mfbot>
[[plain-xml]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-xml&diff=0&oldid=16814 * Tantek * (+106) linked to plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
- [15:47:54] <mfbot>
[[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=16815 * Tantek * (+4)
- [15:48:39] <tantek>
mkaply, I encourage you to help more quickly dismiss articles/arguments like the one you cited by contributing to: http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-xml and http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
- [15:49:02] <tantek>
feel free to quote/copy/paste from my above IRC statements
- [15:49:51] <tantek>
we need to make the refutations to articles like Uche's more easily accessible to the community so that anyone can easily dispose of such articles.
- [15:51:15] <mkaply>
Considering the article is on developerworks.ibm.com, I'll let a non IBM employee refute it. I just wanted to get the word out :)
- [15:54:17] <tantek>
mkaply, why? does IBM discourage open scientific criticism and debate?
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- [15:54:54] <mkaply>
No, I just don't feel like I am an expert enough on the subject to open that can of worms.
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- [15:59:16] <tantek>
mkaply, that's ok. you can still help by improving the microformats wiki, and let others do the actual critiquing etc.
- [15:59:28] <mkaply>
that I can do :)
- [15:59:43] <mkaply>
And encouraging adoption of technologies by writing cool tools
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danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [17:17:17] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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- [18:13:42] <jibot>
Hagfish is Any of various primitive, eel-shaped marine fishes of the family Myxinidae, having a jawless sucking mouth equipped with rasping teeth with which they bore into and feed on other fishes.
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- [18:57:14] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
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Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [20:01:42] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [20:39:58] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16816 * WebOrganics * (+0)
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- [20:43:16] <mkaply>
semantic actions sounds way to nerdy. I need a better word/phrase to describe actions that can act on microformats, RDFa or other semantic data in a web page. Any ideas?
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- [20:44:37] <kingryan>
mkaply: what's wrong with "actions"?
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- [20:45:08] <mkaply>
kingryan: it seemed to generic. Whatever I do is goign to be exposed in Firefox proper
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- [20:47:42] <kingryan>
well, you kind of need it to be generic
- [20:47:51] <kingryan>
there's lots of different stuff you can do with the data
- [20:48:12] <kingryan>
copy/paste, subscribe, republish, etc
- [20:48:21] <kingryan>
..bookmark/annotate
- [20:49:05] <mkaply>
In firefox I think they will end up kind of looking like content handlers. We're not sure how that's going to work yet
- [20:54:22] <mkaply>
The problem is that I overthink API names and things. Because I know everyone will see them.
- [20:54:23] <kingryan>
I'm not sure what content handlers are
- [20:54:42] <mkaply>
Go to tools->options and select Feeds
- [20:54:47] <kingryan>
there's nothing wrong with trying to think through this stuff. just try not to get stuck
- [20:54:51] <mkaply>
Microformats will kind of look like this I think
- [20:55:13] <mkaply>
I'm actually on my last phase. Migrating my microformat actions to a more generic action architecture now that I do RDFa.
- [20:55:25] <mkaply>
I'm shooting for next week for this Operator which will have lots of cool stuff.
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- [20:55:39] <kingryan>
cool
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- [20:55:46] <kingryan>
have you found much rdfa content out there?
- [20:56:20] <mkaply>
kingryan: nope. Mostly demo foo. But Elias bugged me to do it and it wasn't that much work :)
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- [21:03:59] <kingryan>
mkaply: is there a test suite for parsing rdfa?
- [21:04:58] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16817 * WebOrganics * (+1928) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [21:05:10] <mkaply>
kingryan: I'm not sure what that would look like because you would simply be verifying the RDF triples.
- [21:05:23] <mkaply>
It's really easy to parse though. Much easier than microformats
- [21:05:28] <kingryan>
you have to extract them from the dom somehow right?
- [21:05:34] <mfbot>
[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16818 * WebOrganics * (+0) hSpiff 0.0.4 -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16819 * WebOrganics * (-18) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
- [21:06:19] <mkaply>
kingryan: Yeah. His parser basically extracts the RDFa and creates a model. Then there is an API that I can use to query the model for subjects with specific attributes
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- [21:08:55] <mkaply>
He wanted me to move my microformat stuff to use RDF on the backend as well, but I wasn't ready to do that.
- [21:09:08] <mkaply>
Plus I'm not sure the Firefox XSLT engine is good enough for GRDDL
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16820 * WebOrganics * (-22) hSpiff using hSet -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16821 * WebOrganics * (+99)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16822 * WebOrganics * (+0) hSpiff using hSet -
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[[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16823 * WebOrganics * (+56)
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16824 * WebOrganics * (+117) hSpiff using hSet -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16825 * WebOrganics * (-117) hSpiff using hSet -
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[[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16826 * WebOrganics * (+0) hSpiff using hSet -
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