IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:02:40] * [g2] (n=tom@nslu2-linux/g2) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:04:28] <[g2]> tantek: nice job on the hcard page
  3. [00:04:41] <tantek> g2, thanks!@
  4. [00:08:24] <[g2]> tantek: you guys are/were ahead of the curve
  5. [00:14:45] <[g2]> seemant: it's been a very long time :)
  6. [00:19:19] * tantek (n=tantek@corp.technorati.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  8. [00:19:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  10. [00:32:26] <seemant> hi [g2]
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  17. [00:49:22] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16806 * WebOrganics * (+17)
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  19. [00:52:18] <logankoester> This may be the wrong channel to ask this, but what's the best way to indicate that a link is leading back to the designer's portfolio? What about contributers?
  20. [00:54:17] <tuxmack> what designer/contributers?
  21. [01:00:22] <logankoester> The designer of the site in question
  22. [01:10:34] <tuxmack> oh ok
  23. [01:10:46] <tuxmack> would rel-boomark be appropriate? ?
  24. [01:11:37] <tuxmack> and use a title of something like "Site's designer" or something?
  25. [01:25:34] * tuxmack (n=tuxmack@216.186.174.142) has left #microformats
  26. [01:30:34] <logankoester> I'm not sure bookmark makes sense
  27. [01:41:27] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  32. [02:14:29] <[g2]> seemant: it's been forever since the embedded gentoo days
  33. [02:14:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  34. [02:20:19] * minddog_ (n=minddog@blackacid.org) has joined #microformats
  35. [02:20:22] <minddog_> heyas
  36. [02:22:53] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=16807 * AdamBallai * (+46)
  37. [02:24:41] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-242.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  38. [02:36:33] <seemant> [g2]: yes indeed
  39. [02:37:49] <[g2]> seemant: it's nice to see you and I hope all is well
  40. [02:38:12] <[g2]> last we chatted you were the gentoo dev liason :)
  41. [02:39:06] <seemant> [g2]: all is well enough, thanks :) you?
  42. [02:40:47] <[g2]> good thx. I've been doing a bunch of XScale stuff with nslu2-linux and other things the last several years
  43. [02:41:26] <seemant> ahh I see
  44. [02:41:34] <seemant> sounds like fun
  45. [02:41:38] <[g2]> :)
  46. [02:42:21] <[g2]> so now I'm ready to sync all me data linux land and I wound up here in mircoformats :)
  47. [02:42:40] <[g2]> I was testing the 3.0 conduit a little today for tomboy
  48. [02:42:56] <[g2]> or maybe it was 0.3 :)
  49. [02:42:58] <seemant> aha
  50. [02:43:18] <seemant> a friend of mine introduced me to microformats when I redid my blog
  51. [02:43:22] <seemant> which is why I'm in here
  52. [02:43:26] <[g2]> I'm at the level of moving my data around transparently
  53. [02:43:32] <seemant> nice
  54. [02:43:34] <[g2]> cool...
  55. [02:43:39] <[g2]> url for your blog ?
  56. [02:48:49] <minddog_> I stumbled here reading a news site about firefox and microformats =)
  57. [02:49:11] <minddog_> Reminds me of the old rdf days
  58. [02:49:25] <[g2]> vi
  59. [02:49:58] <[g2]> & BBSes
  60. [02:50:01] <minddog_> I'm doing some research on the hListing spec
  61. [02:50:17] <minddog_> Is anyone using this yet?
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  76. [03:05:22] <tantek> minddog, take a look at the Examples in the Wild section. Edgeio for example is both crawling and publishing.
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  81. [03:13:47] <minddog_> tantek: thanks, looking at integrating this into our commercial software
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  91. [04:51:05] <mfbot> [[User:BruceDailey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BruceDailey&diff=0&oldid=16808 * BruceDailey * (+109)
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  93. [04:58:51] <mfbot> [[User:BruceDailey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:BruceDailey&diff=0&oldid=16809 * BruceDailey * (+16)
  94. [04:59:43] <[g2]> botsnack mfbot
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  103. [07:17:44] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16810 * WebOrganics * (-8538)
  104. [07:18:46] <mfbot> [[User:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16811 * WebOrganics * (-55)
  105. [07:22:51] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16812 * WebOrganics * (+8558) hSpiff 0.0.4
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  129. [09:44:09] <mfbot> [[plant-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plant-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=16813 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) typo
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  146. [10:57:31] * bengee (n=bengee@ip252.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has joined #microformats
  147. [10:57:31] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  155. [11:42:33] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
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  159. [11:59:32] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  161. [12:01:08] * pawlik (i=pawlik@mpawlowski.pl) has joined #microformats
  162. [12:01:08] <jibot> pawlik is Maciej Pawlowski, Poland (mpawlowski.pl)
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  164. [12:06:45] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  171. [13:09:07] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  172. [13:09:07] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  173. [13:09:16] <mkaply> tantek: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-think39.html?ca=dnw-820
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  177. [14:16:37] <jibot> ddfreyne is nothing
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  181. [14:57:19] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  186. [15:12:15] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  189. [15:33:15] <tantek> mkaply, the following is false when actually evaluated to any depth: "XML is supported by most user agents these days"
  190. [15:33:35] <tantek> this is one of the biggest myths promoted by the XML crowd
  191. [15:33:36] <mkaply> tantek: yeah. I thought that article was very shallow and poorly written
  192. [15:34:03] <tantek> XML, to the extent that it supposedly has capabilities matching those of HTML, is NOT supported by most user agents.
  193. [15:34:17] <tantek> nevermind does not have test suits for equivalent functionality
  194. [15:34:25] <tantek> suites even ;)
  195. [15:35:03] <tantek> nevermind does not even have specifications for some of that functionality, e.g. a <script> tag that would work in any XML vocabulary that a "generic" XML processor could execute.
  196. [15:35:58] <tantek> XML frankly, has failed the real world rich content test
  197. [15:36:00] <tantek> XML+CSS is inadequately defined
  198. [15:36:10] <tantek> XML with namespaces + CSS is even more poorly defined
  199. [15:36:14] <tantek> this is what the XML doesn't get
  200. [15:36:21] <tantek> XML crowd doesn't get
  201. [15:37:12] <tantek> XML does not have the forms features of HTML
  202. [15:37:25] <tantek> What XForms you say? XForms is NOT supported by most user agents. Try again.
  203. [15:37:54] <tantek> XML does not even have the hyperlink features of HTML
  204. [15:38:11] <tantek> What XLink you say? XLink is NOT supported by most user agents.
  205. [15:39:01] <tantek> Anyone know how you do image maps without XML? No, not defined?
  206. [15:39:56] <tantek> if your technology does not allow for *easy*, *interoperable*, *publishing*, of richly *stylable*, *interactable* (links, forms), *dynamic* (client side scripting), in a way that *is supported by most browsers* then your technology is inferior to HTML.
  207. [15:40:33] <tantek> ... *dynamic* (client sides scriptable) *CONTENT*, in a way...
  208. [15:41:17] <mkaply> tantek: you're preaching to the choir here :)
  209. [15:41:27] <tantek> I'm giving ammunition to the troops.
  210. [15:42:42] <tantek> The above is why XML is not a serious pragmatic alternative solution to publishing content on the Web, and OTOH, Adobe/Macromedia *Flash*, is.
  211. [15:43:45] <tantek> oh except that Flash is not indexed by search engines, whereas POSH is, which also makes Flash unsuitable for any website where you expect your content to be *found* and *indexed* by search engines and thus receive traffic from them.
  212. [15:45:22] * chriswarren (i=chris_wa@conference/railsconf/x-7f3251cae75fc8b8) has joined #microformats
  213. [15:46:08] <mfbot> [[xml]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/xml * Tantek * (+23)
  214. [15:47:39] <mfbot> [[plain-xml]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-xml&diff=0&oldid=16814 * Tantek * (+106) linked to plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
  215. [15:47:54] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=16815 * Tantek * (+4)
  216. [15:48:39] <tantek> mkaply, I encourage you to help more quickly dismiss articles/arguments like the one you cited by contributing to: http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-xml and http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
  217. [15:49:02] <tantek> feel free to quote/copy/paste from my above IRC statements
  218. [15:49:51] <tantek> we need to make the refutations to articles like Uche's more easily accessible to the community so that anyone can easily dispose of such articles.
  219. [15:51:15] <mkaply> Considering the article is on developerworks.ibm.com, I'll let a non IBM employee refute it. I just wanted to get the word out :)
  220. [15:54:17] <tantek> mkaply, why? does IBM discourage open scientific criticism and debate?
  221. [15:54:21] * NetNeutrality (i=chatzill@conference/railsconf/x-afba33d9ceff16a6) has joined #microformats
  222. [15:54:54] <mkaply> No, I just don't feel like I am an expert enough on the subject to open that can of worms.
  223. [15:58:18] * NetNeutrality (i=chatzill@conference/railsconf/x-afba33d9ceff16a6) has left #microformats
  224. [15:59:16] <tantek> mkaply, that's ok. you can still help by improving the microformats wiki, and let others do the actual critiquing etc.
  225. [15:59:28] <mkaply> that I can do :)
  226. [15:59:43] <mkaply> And encouraging adoption of technologies by writing cool tools
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  232. [16:26:50] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  248. [17:17:17] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  252. [17:30:38] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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  261. [18:13:42] <jibot> Hagfish is Any of various primitive, eel-shaped marine fishes of the family Myxinidae, having a jawless sucking mouth equipped with rasping teeth with which they bore into and feed on other fishes.
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  274. [18:57:14] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  278. [19:11:38] <jibot> amir is Amir Guindehi and blogs at http://amir.ch/weblog
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  280. [19:12:05] <jibot> Ronnos is Ron Kok, a friendly student Communication and Multimedia Design in The Netherlands
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  283. [19:45:53] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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  288. [20:01:42] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  295. [20:39:58] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16816 * WebOrganics * (+0)
  296. [20:43:13] * leahculver (n=leahculv@h-68-165-1-62.snvacaid.covad.net) Quit ()
  297. [20:43:16] <mkaply> semantic actions sounds way to nerdy. I need a better word/phrase to describe actions that can act on microformats, RDFa or other semantic data in a web page. Any ideas?
  298. [20:43:35] * defunkt (i=cowboy@conference/railsconf/x-582e3d8fbd1222bb) has joined #microformats
  299. [20:44:37] <kingryan> mkaply: what's wrong with "actions"?
  300. [20:44:43] * bengee (n=bengee@ip252.117.1312A-CUD12K-01.ish.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  301. [20:45:08] <mkaply> kingryan: it seemed to generic. Whatever I do is goign to be exposed in Firefox proper
  302. [20:46:33] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
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  304. [20:47:42] <kingryan> well, you kind of need it to be generic
  305. [20:47:51] <kingryan> there's lots of different stuff you can do with the data
  306. [20:48:12] <kingryan> copy/paste, subscribe, republish, etc
  307. [20:48:21] <kingryan> ..bookmark/annotate
  308. [20:49:05] <mkaply> In firefox I think they will end up kind of looking like content handlers. We're not sure how that's going to work yet
  309. [20:54:22] <mkaply> The problem is that I overthink API names and things. Because I know everyone will see them.
  310. [20:54:23] <kingryan> I'm not sure what content handlers are
  311. [20:54:42] <mkaply> Go to tools->options and select Feeds
  312. [20:54:47] <kingryan> there's nothing wrong with trying to think through this stuff. just try not to get stuck
  313. [20:54:51] <mkaply> Microformats will kind of look like this I think
  314. [20:55:13] <mkaply> I'm actually on my last phase. Migrating my microformat actions to a more generic action architecture now that I do RDFa.
  315. [20:55:25] <mkaply> I'm shooting for next week for this Operator which will have lots of cool stuff.
  316. [20:55:33] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  317. [20:55:39] <kingryan> cool
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  319. [20:55:46] <kingryan> have you found much rdfa content out there?
  320. [20:56:20] <mkaply> kingryan: nope. Mostly demo foo. But Elias bugged me to do it and it wasn't that much work :)
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  325. [21:03:59] <kingryan> mkaply: is there a test suite for parsing rdfa?
  326. [21:04:58] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16817 * WebOrganics * (+1928) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
  327. [21:05:10] <mkaply> kingryan: I'm not sure what that would look like because you would simply be verifying the RDF triples.
  328. [21:05:23] <mkaply> It's really easy to parse though. Much easier than microformats
  329. [21:05:28] <kingryan> you have to extract them from the dom somehow right?
  330. [21:05:34] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16818 * WebOrganics * (+0) hSpiff 0.0.4 -
  331. [21:06:00] <mfbot> [[User talk:WebOrganics]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User_talk:WebOrganics&diff=0&oldid=16819 * WebOrganics * (-18) hSpiff 0.0.2 -
  332. [21:06:19] <mkaply> kingryan: Yeah. His parser basically extracts the RDFa and creates a model. Then there is an API that I can use to query the model for subjects with specific attributes
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  335. [21:08:55] <mkaply> He wanted me to move my microformat stuff to use RDF on the backend as well, but I wasn't ready to do that.
  336. [21:09:08] <mkaply> Plus I'm not sure the Firefox XSLT engine is good enough for GRDDL
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.