IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-06-19
Timestamps are in UTC.
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[[Main Page-pt-br]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-pt-br&diff=0&oldid=17642 * BnvQmr * (-3033)
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[[Main Page-pt-br]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-pt-br&diff=0&oldid=17643 * ScottReynen * (+3033) Reverted edit of BnvQmr, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[Main Page-pt-br]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-pt-br&diff=0&oldid=17644 * RyanKing * (-3033) Reverted edit of ScottReynen, changed back to last version by BnvQmr
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[[Main Page-pt-br]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-pt-br&diff=0&oldid=17645 * RyanKing * (+3033) Reverted edit of RyanKing, changed back to last version by ScottReynen
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:BnvQmr" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam/destructive edits
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[[examples-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-template&diff=0&oldid=17646 * IvvWsy * (-387)
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[[examples-template]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples-template&diff=0&oldid=17647 * RyanKing * (+387) Reverted edit of IvvWsy, changed back to last version by RyanKing
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:IvvWsy" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam/destructive edits
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[[buttons-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons-fr&diff=0&oldid=17648 * CrdBod * (-7149)
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[[relnofollow]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=relnofollow&diff=0&oldid=17649 * EmePbd * (-1)
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[[microformats-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=microformats-ja&diff=0&oldid=17650 * MrnSon * (-2954)
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:MrnSon" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:EmePbd" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:CrdBod" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17651 * UybBgp * (-7973)
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[[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17652 * Li5O9v * (-1825)
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- [08:01:21] <njero>
hey all, is it just me, or is the profile attribute used by microformats... I was looking for a link
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- [08:04:53] <njero>
Only specific stuff I can find is in relation to GRDDL
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[[xfolk-julian-bez]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-julian-bez&diff=0&oldid=17653 * Td2Ux1 * (-1237)
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[[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=17654 * Kwilson * (-2) Fixed hAtom button URL.
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[[buttons]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=17655 * Kwilson * (-2) Missed one
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[[audio-info-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-proposal&diff=0&oldid=17656 * DavidLehn * (-1) s/creator/artist/
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- [16:16:58] <taaz>
mkaply: the other day i had an operator question which was poorly stated... let me try again
- [16:17:37] <taaz>
in the case where you have a microformat with plural elements how can you display an action for each one of them?
- [16:18:14] <mkaply>
hmm. that's a little tricky. for intance in haudio, something for each track.
- [16:18:37] <mkaply>
The way I solved that with hatom/hfeed was by creating "internal micrformats" that represent the smaller parts of the microformat
- [16:18:41] <mkaply>
it's ugly, but it worked
- [16:19:03] <taaz>
i'm working with the specific case of haudio allowing multiple payment links but it's the same for anything with plural elements.. mulitple addresses or phone numbers or whatever
- [16:21:25] <mkaply>
I'll have to think about that.
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- [16:22:51] <taaz>
are objects stored in a map of some sort based on their displayable name? i need to look back at some issue related to that. like a search page returning lots of results named "foo" and only the last one is displayed in operator
- [16:25:11] <mkaply>
Is it possible the other ones are invalid?
- [16:25:13] <mkaply>
Turn on debug mode
- [16:25:44] <taaz>
maybe... i haven't looked into it yet
- [16:26:11] <mkaply>
I hadn't decided how to handle the telephone number problem yet. Let me do some thinking on that.
- [16:26:22] <mkaply>
This is all so much easier with rdfa :)
- [16:27:46] <taaz>
isn't this a ui issue for both mf and rdfa? the info is parsed in properly. i have an array of links but just the first one shows up as an action
- [16:28:27] <tantek>
mkaply, rdfa is just a generic framework, like xml, what is "easier" about it?
- [16:30:07] <mkaply>
tantek: well the parser is easier, but that's separate from this. Purely from an action perspective, it's easier to write actions in Operator that work with RDFa because the actions in RDFa are tied to the data better.
- [16:30:17] <mkaply>
because all the data in the RDFa can be referenced as a URI.
- [16:30:41] <tantek>
but that's like saying it's easier to tie actions to XML
- [16:31:03] <tantek>
there are no specific actions you can take with rdfa because it's a framework, it's not a data format
- [16:31:27] <mkaply>
It really has more to do with my framework. But the interesting part of RDFa from an operator perspective
- [16:31:52] <mkaply>
is that all the information about the RDFa is contained in the action.
- [16:31:59] <mkaply>
Operator needs no knowledge about the RDFa itself.
- [16:31:59] <tantek>
from a user perspective, it doesn't even make sense to expose generic frameworks like that, because users can't really do anything with it
- [16:32:37] <mkaply>
taaz: how should the UI look
- [16:32:51] <tantek>
as opposed to a specific format, like hCard, where there are specific actions that can be taken, like adding to an address book.
- [16:33:10] <njero>
sorry, I asked this last night... but other than with GRDDL do microformats utilize the profile attribute on <head> ?
- [16:33:26] <mkaply>
What I'll do is make it so that if something is required, and it is a property,
- [16:33:27] <tantek>
mkaply, exposing frameworks can be useful for debugging and developers, like how Firebug exposes the DOM tree, CSS etc., but not for end users.
- [16:33:44] <mkaply>
display something like this in the action bar DisplayName (property)
- [16:34:06] <mkaply>
actally, this goes back to a previous request someone had. The ability for actions to determine what they look like on the menu bar
- [16:34:25] <mkaply>
for phone numbers, Mike Kaply (55-1212) isn't necessarily enough - nicer to have Mike Kaply(work: 555-1212)
- [16:34:28] <taaz>
mkaply: there are two issues i guess. one is the api and other is the ui. api will probably require actions to be indexable or something. have doActionLength() or something and an optional index for doAction() to get each one individually. then you could add a list to the ui. but their names would all be the same, like "Buy".
- [16:35:41] * taaz hasn't thought this through yet...
- [16:35:49] <mkaply>
taaz: you're on the right track.
- [16:35:53] <tantek>
mkaply, in general, technology jargon etc. shouldn't be exposed to the user in the user interface
- [16:35:59] <tantek>
hence why "contacts" makes sense
- [16:36:17] <tantek>
whereas users don't need to know what hCard is and that that is what is powering it
- [16:36:20] <tantek>
nor HTML
- [16:36:21] <tantek>
nor XML
- [16:36:24] <tantek>
nor rdfa
- [16:36:31] <mkaply>
tantek: Yeah. I had a lot of trouble coming up with a ser friendly word that encompassed microformats and RDFA.
- [16:36:36] <mkaply>
I settled for "data formats" bleahhj
- [16:36:49] <tantek>
mkaply, the problem is that RDFA is not user-centric
- [16:37:00] <tantek>
that's why you are having trouble with it from a UI perspective
- [16:37:19] <tantek>
consider it a goal to have zero tech jargon in the default operator UI
- [16:37:26] <mkaply>
tantek: it can be. You can take up an vcard using RDFa just like you can using microformats
- [16:37:35] <mkaply>
s/take/tag
- [16:37:52] <mkaply>
I think there is some middle ground here that still needs to be found.
- [16:38:05] <mkaply>
Clearly the issues the haudio folks are running into shows some limitations
- [16:38:17] <mkaply>
but RDFa is taking things too far
- [16:38:25] <tantek>
right, it makes simple things complex
- [16:38:33] <tantek>
and reinvents schemas
- [16:38:40] <tantek>
or at least syntaxes
- [16:39:46] <tantek>
mkaply, the problems the haudio folks are running into are not new, and will be easily solved with mfo
- [16:41:05] <tantek>
the problem is that the folks wanting to solve the problems with the most urgency (and having the time to read/write emails to list accordingly) actually don't have a lot of experience with modular embedded data formats (AFAIK) and thus are trying things and bumping into walls.
- [16:41:23] <tantek>
i'll be refocussing on some microformats related things soon.
- [16:41:39] <tantek>
but new formats will not be top priority for me (nor should they be for the community IMHO)
- [16:42:07] <tantek>
my priorities: http://microformats.org/wiki/todo#overall_priority_ordering
- [16:42:51] <tantek>
got to go for now, but think about what I said about the default UI for operator
- [16:42:53] <tantek>
zero tech jargon
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- [16:43:15] <tantek>
if a technology cannot be made useful to a user with a specific user scenario that can be plainly explained, then it probably doesn't deserve to be implemented.
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- [16:46:52] <taaz>
heh. wonder what that attitude means when there is a desire to markup audio, video, books, other docs, etc etc.
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- [16:48:31] <taaz>
i guess this is why RDFa is better. create your own namespace and if your schemas suck it doesn't hurt anyone but you. global microformat namespace is too easy to mess up
- [16:50:45] <mkaply>
taaz: But at the sametime, with RDFA you can go haywire
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- [16:59:38] <mkaply>
taaz: hmm. interesting problem. That will require some serious thinking.
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- [17:11:37] <tantek>
actually, if you want to just make up your own terms etc and go for it, just use POSH
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- [17:12:02] <tantek>
in fact, we should consider making it a requirement to make your site POSH before even proposing microformats
- [17:12:16] <tantek>
with POSH you can experiment all you want
- [17:12:32] <tantek>
and its much easier that worrying about namespace prefixes and all that other syntactic vinnegar
- [17:12:50] <tantek>
and it's what modern web designers already know how to do
- [17:13:41] <tantek>
mkaply, is it even worth the time to do "serious thinking" when there isn't a specific user benefit?
- [17:14:21] <mkaply>
tantek: actually, what taaz is referring to is user benefit. I've always had this problem that if an hcard contained multiple URLs, operator only provided access to the first one.
- [17:14:41] <mkaply>
That's the problem I'm fixing
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- [17:24:28] <mkaply>
taaz: still there?
- [17:28:36] <taaz>
sure
- [17:30:38] <mkaply>
actualy, I'm thinking to hard. I should have the ability for an action to generate it's own name. Period.
- [17:30:46] <mkaply>
I should have had that in the beginning. That would solve all this.
- [17:30:58] <mkaply>
like "generateActionName" or something like that
- [17:31:21] <mkaply>
I have this mostly working now. The only thing left is having the action look sensible
- [17:32:37] <tantek>
mkaply, the problem with that is that the actions should be more generic than the formats and may encapsulate multiple formats
- [17:32:56] <tantek>
unless i'm misunderstanding how the pieces currently fit together
- [17:33:22] <mkaply>
true. But if you have an action like "dial phone numbers", there should be a way to enumerate all the phone numbers in the UI
- [17:33:39] <tantek>
taaz, could you add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc-people ?
- [17:34:28] <tantek>
mkaply, it depends on whether you have verb-centric UI or a noun-centric UI
- [17:34:40] <tantek>
like, "do something to/with all the xyz"
- [17:34:54] <tantek>
or "this is an xyz. with it you can: 1, 2, 3"
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- [17:35:24] <mkaply>
tantek: Unfortunately in operator, I created a noun API and a verb API. This model doesn't fit as well into the noun API. Because the noun is "hcard"
- [17:35:29] <mkaply>
but it fits in the verb API
- [17:36:53] <tantek>
the noun is contact
- [17:37:02] <tantek>
or even better
- [17:37:04] <tantek>
"person"
- [17:37:06] <tantek>
or
- [17:37:07] <tantek>
"organization"
- [17:37:41] <tantek>
that's part of the key, to have nouns and verbs WITHOUT jargon that end users understand
- [17:38:05] <tantek>
you do want both APIs, so that's not unfortunate
- [17:38:10] <tantek>
you need "Export All Contacts"
- [17:38:26] <tantek>
you also need "person a -> call them"
- [17:38:58] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=17657 * DavidLehn * (+40)
- [17:39:13] <mkaply>
tantek: But call them isn't enough. What if they have three phone number?
- [17:39:18] * mkaply really doesn't want nested menus
- [17:43:35] <tantek>
then you can have three menu items
- [17:43:59] <tantek>
using the "type" of tel and/or the # itself as the label
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Td2Ux1" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Li5O9v" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:UybBgp" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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[[presentations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17658 * Tantek * (+7973) Reverted edit of UybBgp, changed back to last version by AndyMabbett
- [17:51:17] <mfbot>
[[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17659 * Tantek * (+1825) Reverted edit of Li5O9v, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[xfolk-julian-bez]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-julian-bez&diff=0&oldid=17660 * Tantek * (+1237) Reverted edit of Td2Ux1, changed back to last version by Gazza
- [17:51:51] <taaz>
surely someone has plugins/patch/whatever to protect mediawikis from spam?
- [17:54:15] <taaz>
how do you differentiate between haudio enclosure, payment, and sample links? there is a 'type' thing mentioned but not really a "description" that would be useful for a UI.
- [17:57:40] <taaz>
hrm. maybe that's just my problem. i've got image links so you don't have text for the rel item.
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[[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=17661 * DrErnie * (+139) Resources -
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[[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=17662 * DrErnie * (-105) Resources -
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[[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17663 * Qr8Akx * (-1825)
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[[xfolk-jacobian]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-jacobian&diff=0&oldid=17664 * RyanKing * (+1825) Reverted edit of Qr8Akx, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:Qr8Akx" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam/destructive edits
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- [21:41:20] <mkaply>
taaz: ping
- [21:41:59] <taaz>
pong
- [21:42:15] <mkaply>
taaz: you're using my code from SVN, right?
- [21:42:45] <taaz>
yup. i see you added some stuff
- [21:42:55] <mkaply>
yep. I added code just for you:)
- [21:43:16] <mkaply>
http://svn.mozilla.org/labs/operator/userscripts/goto_url.js shows how new stuff works
- [21:43:26] <mkaply>
doAction takes an extra parameter which is the index of the property
- [21:43:49] <mkaply>
getActionName can be used if you want to give a custom action name. For instance, if there are multple web pages, it might have the actual web address in the action
- [21:45:00] <taaz>
nice. i shall try it out now...
- [21:45:36] <mkaply>
taaz: I think that should do what you want
- [21:46:40] <taaz>
are required properties supposed to be enforced? i was looking at the weborganics page that has hcards with an org but no fn.
- [21:47:22] <taaz>
the contacts menu shows they have errors but they still show up in other formats that use hcard
- [21:47:56] <tantek>
taaz, yes required properties are supposed to be enforced
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- [21:50:22] <mkaply>
send them email. I'd say "Easy fix" but I have a feeling IBM will never fix our microformats.
- [21:50:30] <mkaply>
Come to find out they've been there a year and noone noticed
- [21:50:39] <mkaply>
tantek: did the microformats spec ever require n and not fn?
- [21:50:46] <mkaply>
s/microformats spec/hcard spec
- [21:51:03] <tantek>
mkaply no
- [21:51:09] <tantek>
fn and n have always been required
- [21:51:18] <mkaply>
I can't figure out where the IBM folks ever came up with the microformats they are using
- [21:51:19] <tantek>
the n requirement can be met with implied n rules
- [21:51:28] <tantek>
mkaply, perhaps they are using POSH
- [21:51:35] <tantek>
people often get the two confused
- [21:51:40] <tantek>
hence we had to *name* what POSH is
- [21:51:48] <tantek>
in order to help educate folks as to the difference
- [21:52:48] <mkaply>
tantek: No, they definitely intended microformats. They just forgot stuff. Too much else is the same.
- [21:53:00] <taaz>
mkaply: sure the source markup should be fixed but this also breaks operator a bit. i assumed fn would exist on hcards in haudio but these invalid ones are there instead. i think it would be better to just have them not show up if they are broken.
- [21:53:41] <mkaply>
They only show up because you are in debug mode.
- [21:53:47] <mkaply>
If you weren't, you wouldn't see thjem
- [21:57:07] <taaz>
heh. ok. i see. so in non-debug mode there is nothing at all detected in this page.
- [21:57:43] <taaz>
the new code seems to be working. thanks!
- [21:58:49] <mkaply>
taaz: excellent. Please let me know if youhave any problems.
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- [22:00:45] <taaz>
heh... 30 seconds later i find repeatable firefox crasher :)
- [22:00:55] <tantek>
i'd strongly recommend against implementing preliminary drafts like hAudio
- [22:01:03] <tantek>
so much of the process has not been followed there
- [22:01:29] <tantek>
and it's been rushed too quickly to give thorough feedback on those aspects
- [22:02:15] <taaz>
fyi, i work for manu who's heading up haudio
- [22:03:00] <tantek>
don't get me wrong taaz, i want to see an audio-info microformat happen as well
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- [22:03:20] <tantek>
there's just a disconnect right now between eagerness and ability of the community to help guide things through the process
- [22:04:15] <tantek>
taaz, and that being said, have you worked on poshifying the site first?
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- [22:08:44] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/posh
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- [22:15:39] <taaz>
tantek: i'm unsure how to answer this because it sounds like a trap. :)
- [22:16:31] <JMulder>
Anyone got a minute?
- [22:16:49] <JMulder>
I think someone in here must know the answer to my question.
- [22:17:19] <JMulder>
I am looking for the english word that is similar to a dissertation of thesis, but instead applies to a project not academic research.
- [22:17:43] <JMulder>
*of = or
- [22:18:25] <taaz>
tantek: i haven't been working on our website until i started to look at this microformat stuff. but the haudio discussion that Manu has been involved in is due to our need to move more towards semantic html.
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- [22:53:49] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17665 * Ps3N3h * (+0)
- [23:04:05] <mfbot>
[[vcard-implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=17666 * Tantek * (+0) Reverted edit of Ps3N3h, changed back to last version by Tantek
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Ps3N3h" with an expiry time of infinite: damage/spam
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- [23:14:31] <tantek>
wow check out: http://getsatisfaction.com/people/new
- [23:14:40] <tantek>
hCard importing for sign up!
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