IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:05:52] * Leif (n=leif_sto@charger.intuit.com) has joined #microformats
- [00:07:07] * nambor (n=robman@CPE-138-130-146-3.nsw.bigpond.net.au) has joined #microformats
- [00:08:55] <Leif>
Is Rob Manson here?
- [00:09:03] <nambor>
hiya Leif
- [00:09:37] <Leif>
Ah! You're backwards. ;)
- [00:09:49] <nambor>
yep...and upside down in Australia too
- [00:09:56] <Leif>
haha
- [00:10:25] <Leif>
What time is it there?
- [00:10:32] <nambor>
10am
- [00:10:38] <nambor>
where are you?
- [00:10:39] <Leif>
not too bad then
- [00:10:50] <Leif>
Silicon Valley
- [00:11:00] <nambor>
k...what time is that then?
- [00:11:04] <Leif>
It's 5 PM here
- [00:11:14] <nambor>
ah...quite civilized then
- [00:11:15] <Leif>
I'm probably leaving for the gym within the hour
- [00:11:27] <nambor>
i should go for a run too 8)
- [00:11:37] <nambor>
so...did that overall model make sense to you?
- [00:11:58] <nambor>
i'm just trying to work out how to fit all the pieces together for our own use
- [00:11:59] <Leif>
Thought I'd join you here first to help you fend off the undoubtedly intense arguments that would fly around. :)
- [00:12:07] <nambor>
;)
- [00:12:29] * nambor tries to avoid mentioning img and alt tags
- [00:12:38] <Leif>
Yeah, I really like that you are thinking about the bigger picture.
- [00:13:13] <Leif>
haha; I tried to look into the img/alt discussion but decided it was too much...
- [00:14:00] <nambor>
so I think it would be great if our users could just import their receipts into intuit's (or similar) apps using hReceipt
- [00:14:27] <nambor>
and the whole commerce domain seems pretty stable to me - i mean it's been around for thousands of years
- [00:14:55] <nambor>
so would be good if we could develop a bit of a "whole domain" agenda as a community
- [00:15:47] <Leif>
by "whole domain", do you mean thinking bigger (commerce) as opposed to just single formats (receipts etc.)?
- [00:16:17] <nambor>
yeah...as an aside to receipts...but i think receipts is something that could be started right away too - so in parallel
- [00:16:37] <Leif>
Yeah, I'd love to see that happen.
- [00:16:39] <nambor>
i just got thinking after i read joe's proposal in the thread you re-surfaced
- [00:16:46] <Leif>
Is Quicken used a lot in Australia?
- [00:16:56] <nambor>
yeah it is
- [00:17:02] <nambor>
but myob has a lot of traction
- [00:17:10] <mfbot>
[[User:EranGloben]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:EranGloben&diff=0&oldid=18455 * EranGloben * (+28) [http://hellonline.com/index.html Eran Globen] -
- [00:18:06] <nambor>
joe's proposal was great but things like package etc. seemed a bit specific
- [00:18:21] <mfbot>
[[User:Kragen]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Kragen * Kragen * (+25)
- [00:18:25] <nambor>
and something like hDelivery using hEvents could encompass products and services
- [00:19:06] <nambor>
does anyone here know if the wiki supports dot diagrams automatically?
- [00:19:12] <tantek>
nambor, it can get confusing to use names for things that don't exist
- [00:19:30] <nambor>
you mean my h* comments - sure - sorry
- [00:19:31] <tantek>
you may want to consider stating say "a delivery microformat" rather than hDelivery
- [00:19:36] <tantek>
since there is not such thing as hDelivery
- [00:19:42] <nambor>
fair cop
- [00:19:45] <tantek>
and we don't want to mislead folks into thinking there is
- [00:20:00] <tantek>
and there is no hEvent either for example
- [00:20:05] <tantek>
but there are hCalendar events
- [00:20:19] <nambor>
sorry...meant hCalendar too
- [00:20:26] <nambor>
was thinking of the event part of that
- [00:20:35] <tantek>
no problem at all, just that we tend to be sticklers about naming and use of names ;)
- [00:20:35] * nambor needs a coffee
- [00:20:50] <nambor>
agreed
- [00:20:58] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-conventions
- [00:21:03] <nambor>
tantek - what are your thoughts on this space?
- [00:21:09] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
- [00:21:28] <Leif>
Package may have been a bit specific, but line items is something we would be interested in including from the outset.
- [00:21:48] <tantek>
Leif, there should be nothing you want to include from the outset per se
- [00:21:56] <tantek>
the key should be, wanting to solve a specific problem
- [00:22:01] <tantek>
rather than include any specific feature
- [00:22:23] <tantek>
i strongly suggest reading through http://microformats.org/wiki/process
- [00:22:44] <Leif>
Yeah, I'm trying to follow it. Sorry for the lapse.
- [00:22:45] <tantek>
nambor, to answer your question, i do think there is a lot of potential for solving various problems of receipts and expense processing using microformats
- [00:23:11] <tantek>
no problem Leif. more important than the process per se is probably the methodology behind it
- [00:23:18] <tantek>
of being very scientific about the effort
- [00:23:31] <Leif>
Yes, that's something I like about the process.
- [00:23:32] <tantek>
gathering data to determine a conclusion
- [00:23:41] <tantek>
rather than looking for data to prove a conclusion
- [00:23:53] <nambor>
great - i think Leif and I (sorry if I put words in your mouth) are just trying to discuss the space in general as an aid to starting on the process
- [00:24:09] <nambor>
since we're both pretty much soaking in the problem space
- [00:24:10] <nambor>
8)
- [00:24:33] <tantek>
well, FWIW, "expense reports" have been on my to-do list for quite some time: http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#new_microformat_requests
- [00:24:49] * nambor reading
- [00:25:06] <Leif>
Yeah. What I was thinking was that the problem of analyzing expenses might require line items as a solution.
- [00:25:37] <tantek>
but note that for me, new microformats are lower in priority to resolving issues with current microformats http://microformats.org/wiki/to-do#overall_priority_ordering , so i may be able to best act as guide here, and not an active participant in your discussions per se.
- [00:25:55] <nambor>
tantek - in relation to the process - my thoughts are it might be useful to map out the general commerce artefacts/model before we start gathering examples
- [00:25:57] <Leif>
that's great too
- [00:26:04] <nambor>
understood
- [00:26:23] <Leif>
oops, my comment was directed at tantek
- [00:26:32] <tantek>
thank Leif.
- [00:26:37] <tantek>
nambor, yes, that might be useful as part of a problem statement
- [00:26:51] <tantek>
perhaps the key here is to start a "commerce" page
- [00:26:54] <nambor>
cool - and Leif - I was responding to tantek too 8)
- [00:27:24] <nambor>
tantek - agreed - I gave a 24hr notice period on the new mailing list for objections
- [00:27:25] <tantek>
where you can map out the general commerce artefacts/*scenarios* (not model)
- [00:27:46] <tantek>
it's actually really important to NOT jump to a model
- [00:27:55] <tantek>
examples and evidence BEFORE model
- [00:28:06] <tantek>
gather data before forming a hypothesis as it were
- [00:28:22] <nambor>
ok...but i think that's just a semantic difference as I see a list of artefacts as a model - but that's just me 8)
- [00:28:43] <tantek>
yes, that's a good criticism of a list of artifacts
- [00:28:44] <nambor>
just not a formalised model
- [00:28:53] <tantek>
hence focusing on problem statement and scenarios first
- [00:29:00] <nambor>
absolutely agreed
- [00:29:13] <tantek>
lists and models should absolutely be postponed
- [00:29:17] <mfbot>
[[User:JohnAllsopp]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:JohnAllsopp&diff=0&oldid=18456 * JohnAllsopp * (+27)
- [00:29:41] * evanpro is now known as krenpreV
- [00:30:04] <nambor>
tantek - I also think that receipts are a discreet enough element that they could be addressed in parallel - what are your thoughts?
- [00:30:18] <nambor>
certainly in terms of example gathering
- [00:30:26] * krenpreV is now known as kjenpjeV
- [00:30:53] * kjenpjeV is now known as evanpro
- [00:31:28] <tantek>
nambor yes, web based receipts are prevalent enough to gather examples
- [00:31:45] <tantek>
most e-commerce sites AFAIK provide ways to login and view previous purchases which are essentially receipts
- [00:32:01] <nambor>
yep - afaik too
- [00:32:05] <nambor>
so Leif
- [00:32:15] <nambor>
let's give it 24 hours for feedback and objections
- [00:32:32] <nambor>
i think scott's post mirrors what tantek just pointed out about naming
- [00:32:46] <Leif>
Agreed.
- [00:32:47] <nambor>
and then if all is good let's start the example gathering pages for commerce and receipts
- [00:32:51] <nambor>
cool
- [00:33:16] <nambor>
nice talking to you all 8) - i'm off to get a coffee
- [00:33:32] <Leif>
I'm glad to find support for this project! Bye.
- [00:34:29] <tantek>
nambor and Leif, please consider contributing under the Public Domain
- [00:34:38] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license
- [00:35:01] <nambor>
tantek - absolutely
- [00:35:07] <Leif>
Me too.
- [00:35:51] <tantek>
thanks gentlemen (pardon the statistically based sexist assumption of your gender)
- [00:37:26] <Leif>
Thank you too. In my case statistics did not lie. ;)
- [00:38:29] <mfbot>
[[User:Lastorset]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Lastorset * Lastorset * (+35) Added PD license
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- [00:43:09] <Leif>
I'm heading out soon.
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- [00:58:05] <mfbot>
[[User:Lastorset]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Lastorset&diff=0&oldid=18457 * Tantek * (+219) noted a suggestion for Lastorset in accordance with what appears to be his intent
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- [01:01:07] <mfbot>
[[User:RobManson]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:RobManson * RobManson * (+25) Added public domain release to my profile
- [01:01:23] <nambor>
tantek - did you see my questions earlier about dot diagrams?
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- [01:03:31] <tantek>
nambor, not sure what you mean by a dot diagram
- [01:05:27] <nambor>
ah k - dot diagrams are a common format using GraphViz tools on linux/unix
- [01:05:28] <nambor>
http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/05/06/graphviz_dot.html
- [01:05:55] <nambor>
some wiki engines support this natively - otherwise i can just add graphics
- [01:06:13] <nambor>
but i guess i'll have to ref them to my server as upload is disabled (for obvious reasons)
- [01:11:39] <mfbot>
[[logical-flaws]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=logical-flaws&diff=0&oldid=18458 * Tantek * (+9)
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- [01:23:50] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18459 * JamesLevy * (+40) Exploratory Discussions -
- [01:24:21] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18460 * JamesLevy * (+14) Exploratory Discussions -
- [01:24:47] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18461 * JamesLevy * (-1) Exploratory Discussions -
- [01:25:18] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18462 * JamesLevy * (+0) Exploratory Discussions -
- [01:35:49] <mfbot>
[[news-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/news-examples * JamesLevy * (+1015)
- [01:36:36] <mfbot>
[[news-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=news-examples&diff=0&oldid=18463 * JamesLevy * (-47)
- [01:37:46] <mfbot>
[[news-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=news-examples&diff=0&oldid=18464 * JamesLevy * (+0)
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- [01:39:48] <mfbot>
[[news-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=news-examples&diff=0&oldid=18465 * JamesLevy * (+0)
- [01:40:39] <mfbot>
[[news-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=news-examples&diff=0&oldid=18466 * JamesLevy * (-112)
- [01:41:20] <mfbot>
[[Category:public domain license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Category:public_domain_license&diff=0&oldid=18467 * Tantek * (+128) put copy paste snippet into code block and highlighted with a light grey background
- [01:46:51] <mfbot>
[[Category:public domain license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Category:public_domain_license&diff=0&oldid=18468 * Tantek * (+251) noted Rohit's announcement to microformats-discuss in the acknowledgements section
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[[User:Dmitry Baranovskiy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Dmitry_Baranovskiy&diff=0&oldid=18469 * Dmitry Baranovskiy * (+50)
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[[User:MountainAsh]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:MountainAsh * MountainAsh * (+25)
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[[User:ManuSporny]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ManuSporny&diff=0&oldid=18470 * ManuSporny * (+27)
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[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18471 * RobManson * (+272) No complaints on mailing list so I updated this markup
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[[User:Veeliam]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Veeliam&diff=0&oldid=18472 * Veeliam * (+26)
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[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18473 * ManuSporny * (+225) Exploratory Discussions - - Adding receipt-
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[[receipt-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt-examples * ManuSporny * (+587)
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[[receipt-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18474 * ManuSporny * (+521) The Problem -
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[[receipt-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18475 * ManuSporny * (-59) The Problem -
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[[receipt-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18476 * ManuSporny * (+426) The Problem -
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[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18477 * ManuSporny * (-4) The Problem -
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[[criticism]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=criticism&diff=0&oldid=18478 * Evan * (+249) Well, not entirely ''criticism'' per se
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[[error-message-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=error-message-examples&diff=0&oldid=18479 * Evan * (+1080) It's not just about login errors, they're just the easiest to generate
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[[User:EdwardOConnor]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:EdwardOConnor&diff=0&oldid=18480 * EdwardOConnor * (+27) PD in the hizz-ouse!
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[[User:EdwardOConnor]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:EdwardOConnor&diff=0&oldid=18481 * EdwardOConnor * (-33) I no longer work at Eventful
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- [06:44:15] <nambor>
tantek/sreynen - on the topic of extending existing formats, did you have any further thoughts on the uF and forms info I updated on wiki as requested (see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#INPUT_element_handling)
- [06:46:25] <tantek>
nambor, I personally would like to add the <input type="text" value="..." /> clarification ASAP
- [06:46:37] <tantek>
but beyond that haven't thought about it much
- [06:46:54] <nambor>
ok...input would be a great start
- [06:47:17] <nambor>
did you see my comment/issue about some of the current parsers though?
- [06:47:24] <nambor>
this is not so much a format issue
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- [06:57:21] <nambor>
tantek - is there a documented process for amending existing standards (e.g adding <input type="text" value="..." />)?
- [06:58:07] <tantek>
nambor, it depends on whether it was something that was simply forgotten to document, or an actual change.
- [06:58:34] <nambor>
ok
- [06:59:01] <tantek>
in this case i am leaning towards the "i forgot to document this", because i did think i had covered all the special case elements
- [06:59:20] <nambor>
btw: did you mean <input type="text" class="given-name" name="first_name" /> (e.g. class defn within the input field? wasn't quite clear from your comment)
- [06:59:36] <nambor>
fair enough for the last point
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- [07:03:59] <tantek>
nambor yes but to apply to any text property, not just given-name
- [07:04:10] <nambor>
yes...of course 8)
- [07:04:45] <nambor>
would that include type="hidden" too (as that's parallel to type="text")
- [07:07:25] <tantek>
that's a good question.
- [07:07:42] <tantek>
because in terms of simplicity, i would say yes
- [07:07:58] <tantek>
but in terms of discouraging hidden data, i would say no
- [07:08:53] <nambor>
also - andy moved my vCard to hCard contribution to the hcard-implementations page - however I created that in response to the to-do list. I wrote it as javascript so it could be put in the code section - but ryan king said i should host it on my own server (I was trying to avoid this so it was a tool that belonged to the community - not my site). are there any guidelines on this type of contribution as now i'm confused
- [07:09:29] <tantek>
it is technically an implementation yes
- [07:09:49] <nambor>
so how does that differ from the hCard creator?
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- [07:10:04] <nambor>
e.g. what is the /code section for then
- [07:10:17] <tantek>
it's for open source code for microformats
- [07:10:30] <nambor>
and how does one contribute to that
- [07:10:38] <tantek>
now *that* is a good question
- [07:10:54] <tantek>
perhaps consider creating a page to track that
- [07:10:54] <nambor>
the vCard to hCard converter I created was released under GPL (see the code)
- [07:10:58] <nambor>
8)
- [07:11:10] <tantek>
like /wiki/code-issues
- [07:11:15] <nambor>
ok...not trying to be difficult - just trying to understand how I contribute
- [07:11:21] <nambor>
will do
- [07:13:05] <tantek>
nambor, i know, i'm not implying you are being difficult, i just don't have an answer right this second but want to make sure your question is captured and not forgotten.
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- [07:13:36] <nambor>
8) wasn't implying you implied - just wanting to be clear 8)
- [07:13:49] <nambor>
ok
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- [07:14:56] <nambor>
in case you missed it - 8) wasn't implying you implied that - just wanting to be clear 8)
- [07:22:51] <KevinMarks>
"For most document authors there's virtually no work necessary to put their material on this Web of Data. For example, if they're using microformats then in effect the job is already done. " - Danny Ayers
- [07:25:17] <mfbot>
[[code-issues]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/code-issues * RobManson * (+1183) How to contribute open source code to microformats.org?
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[[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=18482 * AndyMabbett * (+11) intro
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- [13:22:56] <mfbot>
[[User:DStorey]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DStorey&diff=0&oldid=18483 * DStorey * (+102)
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- [15:04:12] <mkaply>
can LABEL in vcard have more than one occurrence?
- [15:05:10] <mkaply>
Also, does anyone know if in vcard it should be UTF-8 or utf-8
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- [15:07:36] <sreynen>
FYI, Microsoft is looking for a program manager to help integrate microformats (among other things) into IE: http://members.microsoft.com/careers/search/details.aspx?JobID=D210C5AE-47C8-48F2-AADA-D3D35549C1CA
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- [15:10:57] <mkaply>
intersting
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- [15:12:36] <briansuda>
mkaply, i´d say you can have multiple labels, but i can´t find a reference in the RFC at the moment
- [15:13:24] <WilleRaab>
mkaply: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties <- label isn't there, at leas.t
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- [15:13:57] <WilleRaab>
Speaking of hCard, btw, is there any thoughts of how to include instant messaging in another way than using 'url' ?
- [15:14:29] <briansuda>
there is an RFC proposal for IMPP
- [15:14:36] <briansuda>
you can always use a NOTE as well
- [15:14:38] <mkaply>
briansuda: X2V isn't picking up all the labels on http://www.plaxo.com/add_me?n=joseph
- [15:14:53] <briansuda>
mkaply, as for UTF or utf.... i found your answer
- [15:15:04] <briansuda>
i had to pop up several RFCs
- [15:15:07] <mkaply>
The invalid ADR on Plaxo pages are going to drive me crazy
- [15:15:12] <briansuda>
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2046.txt
- [15:15:28] <briansuda>
Unlike some other parameter values, the values of the charset parameter are NOT case sensitive.
- [15:15:34] <WilleRaab>
Yeah, seen the RFC, and on the wiki there's a suggestion (in examples, i think) that "url" shoud be used combined with the 'protocol' declaration, for example msnim:willeraab@hotmail.com
- [15:15:54] <WilleRaab>
But that's not a very good sollution.. :-/
- [15:16:08] <briansuda>
WilleRaab have a look at http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2779.txt
- [15:16:39] <mkaply>
briansuda: I was trying to decide if I should switch to utf-8 from UTF-8 so It will look mor elike yours
- [15:17:10] <nambor>
The TYPE parameter values can include "dom" to indicate a domestic delivery label; "intl" to indicate an international delivery label; "postal" to indicate a postal delivery label; "parcel" to indicate a parcel delivery label; "home" to indicate a delivery label for a residence; "work" to indicate delivery label for a place of work; and "pref" to indicate the preferred delivery label when more than one label is
- [15:17:52] <briansuda>
mkaply, it is not case-sensitive, so it is up to you
- [15:18:08] <mkaply>
I think I like my uppercase :)
- [15:18:13] <briansuda>
plaxo also seems to have LABEL in places it shouldn´t
- [15:18:23] <briansuda>
<td class="label type" valign="top">work</td>
- [15:18:55] <WilleRaab>
ok, http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc4770.html was the one i read.
- [15:19:21] <mkaply>
briansuda: yeah, I wasn't sure what they were going for there, but I pick up all the labels
- [15:19:54] <briansuda>
i´ll have a look at why X2V isn´t pulling LABEL, i might have implemented it at all yet?
- [15:20:07] <mkaply>
briansuda: it pulls label, just the first one
- [15:20:13] <briansuda>
we need to go back to the HG test cases and add more
- [15:20:27] <mkaply>
the other question plaxo had was if NOTEs should be concatenated or multiple NOTEs in the vcard
- [15:20:34] <mkaply>
We both concatenate
- [15:20:36] <briansuda>
ah, i probably never "upgraded" LABEL to the new XSL templates
- [15:21:05] <briansuda>
Yeah, NOTES is a strange one, i can´t remember exactly why we do that
- [15:21:21] <briansuda>
a NOTE concatted is the same as many NOTES
- [15:21:43] <briansuda>
whereas multiple LABELS concat is not the same...
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- [15:39:16] * briansuda notes that RDFa has also not taken on the issue of child elements not specifically marked-up as data to be considered
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- [16:22:10] <mfbot>
[[intro]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=intro&diff=0&oldid=18484 * Tantek * (+97) noted creationg, authorship
- [16:22:31] <mfbot>
[[intro]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=intro&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+9639) intro moved to kragen-history-of-markup
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- [16:28:27] <mfbot>
[[kragen-history-of-markup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=kragen-history-of-markup&diff=0&oldid=18485 * Tantek * (+415) noted why the page was moved
- [16:29:18] <mfbot>
[[User:Kragen]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Kragen&diff=0&oldid=18486 * Tantek * (+48) added kragen-history-of-markup
- [16:29:59] <mfbot>
[[intro]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=intro&diff=0&oldid=18487 * Tantek * (-13) redirect to microformats introduction
- [16:35:15] <mfbot>
[[jobs]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/jobs * Tantek * (+395) created based on sreynen note in IRC
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- [16:37:41] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=18488 * Tantek * (+11) added [[jobs]] reorganized resources
- [16:41:23] <tantek>
mkaply, you said: "The invalid ADR on Plaxo pages are going to drive me crazy" - please add any URLs you find with invalid hCards to: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-in-wild#Examples_with_some_problems
- [16:41:49] <tantek>
so that we can capture/document the fact that those problems exist so that other implementers (and publishers for that matter) know about it.
- [16:42:11] <mkaply>
I'm not sure plaxo can fix it. They know
- [16:42:24] <mkaply>
they don't store street/city/state in their data apparently
- [16:43:30] <tantek>
whether or not they can fix it, the problem should be documented
- [16:43:51] <tantek>
so that anyone else coming across those hCards hopefully doesn't get confused
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- [16:44:12] <tantek>
WilleRaab, why do you dislike using URLs for IM addresses?
- [16:44:58] <tantek>
mkaply, briansuda, NOTE is concatenated per hcard-parsing
- [16:45:30] <mkaply>
tantek: But does the VCARD allow multiple NOTEs?
- [16:45:48] <WilleRaab>
tantek: Since it makes, if i havn't missunderstood, it not optional what to have as a URL. If I for example want a link to a web-to-msn-page, i can't use that link as a hcard.
- [16:46:22] <WilleRaab>
At least if i read the examples right...(?)
- [16:47:25] <WilleRaab>
It deamands to use the "protocol", which is something that we can quite much count on that ppl can't use... So it makes me put links ppl won't be able to use on the page..
- [16:47:26] <tantek>
mkaply, when Ryan King and I did a strict reading of RFC2426, it didn't appear that NOTE was singular
- [16:47:34] <tantek>
thus it is not listed in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties
- [16:47:53] <mkaply>
So why is Note concatenated instead of multiple NOTE:
- [16:48:19] <tantek>
however, when Brian Suda and I were original constructing the parsing rules by both reading the spec and marking up various documents, it made much more sense to allow authors to markup several chunks of text as a NOTE and have them concatenated, rather than have them show up as multiple NOTEs.
- [16:48:26] <tantek>
this was something we learned in practice
- [16:48:29] <mkaply>
k
- [16:48:35] <tantek>
back in 2004-2005
- [16:48:56] * tantek still has a lot of documentation to do of what he and Brian Suda learned back then.
- [16:50:19] <tantek>
WilleRaab, what's a link to a web-to-msn-page - I don't think I have seen or heard of that before.
- [16:50:26] <tantek>
Could you provide an example?
- [16:50:34] <tantek>
perhaps an hCard with one in it?
- [16:50:56] <WilleRaab>
hm, maybe MSN doesn't even have it. :-D I know ICQ does.
- [16:51:15] <WilleRaab>
SImply put, a form that allow you to send messages from a webpage to a IM agent.
- [16:51:21] <tantek>
using the protocol for IM addresses is one way we have found so far to do it that "works" from a user perspective, there may be others, and I think we're willing to add more if there is user benefit.
- [16:51:51] <tantek>
either way (MSN or ICQ), if you could provide a URL to an example that we could look at it would help provide a case for it.
- [16:52:02] <WilleRaab>
But no matter what - it's still possible to want to use the href for something else than that specific purpose. By demanding the href to be of a specific typ one is limiting hcard.
- [16:52:27] <tantek>
it's not a limitation, it's an enablement
- [16:52:33] <tantek>
before there was no way to markup an IM address
- [16:52:39] <tantek>
now there is at least this way
- [16:52:40] <WilleRaab>
Wouldn't it be better to allow for class "url" along with "[IM-name]"
- [16:53:00] <tantek>
and in the wild, people already have pages with IM URLs
- [16:53:12] <tantek>
thus it made sense to markup the data people were already publishing
- [16:53:29] <tantek>
so unless you have a URL to an example of what you are talking about, no, it wouldn't be better
- [16:53:36] <WilleRaab>
Ok, yeah, in that perspective it's surely enablement, what I mean is that it's forcing web developers to use a special kind of link or not use hcard for the IM at all. Or, perhaps, include the IM in two links.
- [16:53:49] <tantek>
it's not forcing anything
- [16:54:08] <tantek>
especially if you don't provide a URL to what alternatives you're trying to discuss
- [16:54:19] <nambor>
if it's a web IM client then it would probably be http://imurl?user_id
- [16:54:30] <WilleRaab>
http://www.icq.com/people/about_me.php?to=5389478
- [16:54:44] <WilleRaab>
^^That's an exaple of a link on a icq-number. That's standard in phpBB.
- [16:55:28] <WilleRaab>
And on that same page, you'll find links to "Send message to Wille's ICQ without using your own ICQ"
- [16:55:34] <tantek>
that page looks like a good candidate for hCard
- [16:56:14] <WilleRaab>
(haha, yeah, for sure...)
- [16:56:24] <tantek>
could you add it as an example of icq.com to be marked up with hCard to http://microformats.org/wiki/advocacy ?
- [16:58:08] <WilleRaab>
Sure.
- [16:58:44] <tantek>
is there an ICQ URL scheme, or does one simply use AIM: ?
- [16:59:37] <WilleRaab>
I'm afraid i don't have the slightest idea. :-/
- [17:00:09] <nambor>
isn't the http://www.icq.com part just like an extended version of protocol://? And now there are a lot of web apps that aggregate multiple IM services too...
- [17:00:22] <WilleRaab>
Te links they have to open message-sending using ICQ from a webpage all seem to use HTTP and directly to a PHP-script on the server.
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- [17:01:24] <tantek>
yeah I got a "downloading PHP" on my browser
- [17:01:34] <tantek>
so they have something wrong with their web server config
- [17:01:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-advocacy]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy&diff=0&oldid=18489 * WilleRaab * (+125) Online Profiles - --> added ICQ
- [17:02:31] <WilleRaab>
tantek: do you have ICQ installed?
- [17:02:55] <tantek>
I do not - I just use Adium
- [17:03:03] <WilleRaab>
My FF recognize it as an ICQ-skript (but prompts me to download or open w icq).
- [17:03:18] <WilleRaab>
So my guess is that they're using some content-type they've made up or something.. mh..
- [17:03:44] <tantek>
rather than a URL scheme
- [17:03:49] <WilleRaab>
yeah. application/x-icq
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- [17:04:06] <tantek>
ah ok, that's sufficient to fix this
- [17:04:34] <WilleRaab>
They always seem to use uin=[icq number] in their link addresses, dunno if that's of any use for anything...
- [17:05:56] <tantek>
currently we don't have a suggested way to markup ICQ addresses in http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#New_Types_of_Contact_Info
- [17:06:01] <tantek>
so now we can document this one
- [17:08:00] <WilleRaab>
hm... It'd be cool if popular webforums used hcard on their profiles.
- [17:09:28] <tantek>
indeed!
- [17:09:36] <tantek>
feel free to add any that you find to the advocacy page
- [17:10:00] <WilleRaab>
=)
- [17:10:05] <WilleRaab>
Thinking of where to put it...
- [17:10:07] <WilleRaab>
:-D
- [17:12:50] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=18490 * Tantek * (+217) added how to markup ICQ contact info
- [17:13:31] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=18491 * Tantek * (-3)
- [17:13:57] <tantek>
WillieRaab, take a look: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples#ICQ
- [17:14:40] <WilleRaab>
Sweet. :)
- [17:14:57] <tantek>
Thanks for providing the URL to a real world example, it really helped to drive the solution.
- [17:15:32] <tantek>
and scope it for that matter, as solving this problem specifically for ICQ was of course easier than some generic solution.
- [17:16:47] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples&diff=0&oldid=18492 * Tantek * (+2) Site profiles -
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- [17:22:31] <WilleRaab>
Hm... Yahoo! used to have a messenger from webform to IM-agent. Can't find it now though. :-(
- [17:23:00] <WilleRaab>
http://messenger.yahoo.com/edit/send/?.target=wille_raab&.src=pg <-- is this page not working?
- [17:23:07] <WilleRaab>
I just get an empty page.
- [17:23:23] <WilleRaab>
(hehe, sry for my crappy English..)
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- [17:32:26] <tantek>
WillieRaab, no problem. When you get it working, perhaps you can publish an example of it inside an hCard of your own
- [17:32:40] <tantek>
you can use your User page on the wiki for this as well
- [17:33:41] <tantek>
please also consider http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license
- [17:35:49] <mfbot>
[[User:WilleRaab]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:WilleRaab * WilleRaab * (+25)
- [17:35:57] <WilleRaab>
Good thing.
- [17:36:27] <WilleRaab>
(hehe, i wan't "copyleft" to be present in unicode...
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[[hcard-advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy&diff=0&oldid=18493 * WilleRaab * (+487) New section: Plugins for and modifications of web-applications
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- [17:46:26] <mfbot>
[[hcard-advocacy]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy&diff=0&oldid=18494 * WilleRaab * (+216) Online Profiles - -> added some urls
- [17:47:47] <mfbot>
[[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=18495 * Tantek * (+794) added Satisfaction and Dopplr as concrete examples, jowyang twitter
- [17:48:13] <mfbot>
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18496 * Joe.Osowski * (+30) Real-World Examples -
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- [17:57:29] <mfbot>
[[Example Receipts]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Example_Receipts * Joe.Osowski * (+61195)
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[[Example Receipts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Example_Receipts&diff=0&oldid=18497 * Joe.Osowski * (+65597)
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[[receipt-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18498 * ManuSporny * (+228) Receipts - - Added Amazon receipt and example template
- [18:14:05] <mfbot>
[[receipt-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18499 * ManuSporny * (+2) Receipts -
- [18:16:41] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=18500 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[hcard]] into the public domain.
- [18:17:27] <mfbot>
[[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=18501 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[citation]] into the public domain.
- [18:24:39] <mfbot>
[[rel-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-license&diff=0&oldid=18502 * Tantek * (+79) remove MicroformatCopyrightStatement template and replace with explicit public domain release.
- [18:26:20] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=18503 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[rel-tag]] into the public domain.
- [18:26:46] <mfbot>
[[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=18504 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[vote-links]] into the public domain.
- [18:27:27] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=18505 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[hcalendar]] into the public domain.
- [18:28:18] <mfbot>
[[rel-nofollow]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-nofollow&diff=0&oldid=18506 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[rel-nofollow]] into the public domain.
- [18:28:49] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=18507 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[hatom]] into the public domain.
- [18:29:15] <mfbot>
[[geo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=18508 * Tantek * (+80) remove MicroformatCopyrightStatement template and replace with explicit public domain release.
- [18:29:41] <mfbot>
[[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=18509 * Tantek * (+80) remove MicroformatCopyrightStatement template and replace with explicit public domain release.
- [18:30:12] <mfbot>
[[rel-directory]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-directory&diff=0&oldid=18510 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[rel-directory]] into the public domain.
- [18:31:28] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=18511 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[hreview]] into the public domain.
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[[xoxo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=18512 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[xoxo]] into the public domain.
- [18:32:55] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=18513 * Tantek * (+154) explicitly release my contributions to [[hresume]] into the public domain.
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- [19:40:09] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=18514 * TrevorAtGc * (+313) Issues -
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- [19:44:55] <mfbot>
[[User:TrevorAtGc]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:TrevorAtGc * TrevorAtGc * (+57)
- [19:53:47] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=18515 * TrevorAtGc * (-311) moved issue to vcard suggestions
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[[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18516 * TrevorAtGc * (+140) 3.3.2 EMAIL Type Definition -
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[[User talk:TrevorAtGc]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:TrevorAtGc * AndyMabbett * (+73) Welcome!
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[[currency-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18517 * AndyMabbett * (-15) Straw man proposal -
- [20:17:11] <mfbot>
[[currency-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18518 * AndyMabbett * (-1) Straw man proposal -
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[[user-interface]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=user-interface&diff=0&oldid=18519 * BrianOberkirch * (+96)
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[[hcard-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18520 * MathaLete * (+188) New Examples -
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[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18521 * Lastorset * (+20) Receipts - reformatted for clarity
- [21:42:44] <mfbot>
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18522 * Lastorset * (+364) Receipts - added information from my examples
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[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18523 * Lastorset * (+43) Amazon - todo note
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[[Category:public domain license]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Category:public_domain_license&diff=0&oldid=18524 * Tantek * (+44) added heading per Rohit's email to microformats-discuss
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[[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=18525 * Tantek * (+299) please consider releasing your contributions to microformats.org into the public domain
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[[Template:welcome]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:welcome&diff=0&oldid=18526 * Tantek * (+330) added request to consider use of the public domain release for new users
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[[shortcuts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=shortcuts&diff=0&oldid=18527 * Tantek * (+30)
- [23:37:01] <mfbot>
[[intl]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/intl * Tantek * (+34)
- [23:38:42] <mfbot>
[[shortcuts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=shortcuts&diff=0&oldid=18528 * Tantek * (+1) renamed int to intl since int typically means "integer" in common programming parlance and intl is a much more conventional abbr for international(ization)
- [23:42:03] <mfbot>
[[shortcuts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=shortcuts&diff=0&oldid=18529 * Tantek * (+43)
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[[hist]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hist * Tantek * (+37)
- [23:49:10] <mfbot>
[[shortcuts]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=shortcuts&diff=0&oldid=18530 * Tantek * (+10)
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