IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  12. [00:45:00] <SignpostMarv> just popping in to ask if anyone has recommendations for recent microformat-centric podcasts to listen to
  13. [00:46:06] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-6fd12fe961bb1ac3) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  14. [00:49:14] <sreynen> SignpostMarv, have you looked at http://microformats.org/wiki/podcasts ?
  15. [00:49:56] <SignpostMarv> yus, theres lots, thats why i was asking for recommendations :-P
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  18. [01:30:57] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=18531 * Tantek * (-2)
  19. [01:33:54] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=18532 * WilleRaab * (+0) Fixing invalid reference... (I hope. ;-) )
  20. [01:34:00] <mfbot> [[advocacy-email-samples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-email-samples&diff=0&oldid=18533 * Tantek * (+541) added sample email 2
  21. [01:34:26] <tantek> nicely done WilleRaab
  22. [01:35:05] <WilleRaab> ty. :-D
  23. [01:36:11] <mfbot> [[kragen-history-of-markup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=kragen-history-of-markup&diff=0&oldid=18534 * Tantek * (+27)
  24. [01:48:53] <WilleRaab> tantek: is there a lot of discussion on the list, or is IRC the primary place for discussions?
  25. [01:49:01] <tantek> IRC is preferred
  26. [01:49:20] <WilleRaab> check.
  27. [01:49:34] <tantek> the list often gets hard to follow and too noisy
  28. [01:49:49] <tantek> i've been doing my best to iterate on mailing-list guidelines to increase the signal-to-noise ratio on the list, but people keep discovering new ways of being noisy ;)
  29. [01:50:21] <WilleRaab> hahaha... people are such an annoyance. :)
  30. [01:50:35] <tantek> heh. no, they just need guidance. most people have good intentions.
  31. [01:51:01] <tantek> though there are always a few that have neutral or bad intentions.
  32. [01:51:06] <tantek> or don't realize they are causing harm
  33. [01:51:25] <WilleRaab> can't be that common here, though?
  34. [01:51:30] * SignpostMarv thinx he is one of the latter on a regular basis :-P
  35. [01:51:47] <tantek> no it's not that common in the microformats community, which is why i'm fighting hard to keep it out as much as possible
  36. [01:51:47] <WilleRaab> yeah, that last thing is of course difficult to handle..
  37. [01:52:14] <tantek> most open (source, standards etc.) communities allow far too many "jerks" to hijack conversations and overall lower the tone of conversation
  38. [01:52:14] <SignpostMarv> microformats are implemented by geeks. geeks are generally polite and intelligent
  39. [01:52:19] <tantek> btw http://microformats.org/wiki/mailing-lists#General_guidelines
  40. [01:52:44] <tantek> SignpostMarv, actually, geeks often lack social skills and are thus often awkward at communication
  41. [01:52:44] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv: :)
  42. [01:52:58] <WilleRaab> I miss FidoNet. :I
  43. [01:53:00] <tantek> but are often very well intentioned and can be taught
  44. [01:53:28] <tantek> SignpostMarv, btw, if you question yourself and ask yourself if you are part of the problem, then it is highly likely that you are not part of the problem.
  45. [01:53:37] <tantek> introspection/reflection often helps self-correct
  46. [01:54:03] <WilleRaab> The largest problem, I think, is that ppl have different views of what's important in a discussion and also don't communicate in quite the same way, and therefore discussions tend to be very unfocused very soon.
  47. [01:54:04] <tantek> and demonstrating humility (even in a joking manner as you did above :) ) always helps
  48. [01:54:05] <SignpostMarv> tantek, doesn't that generally only apply to face-to-face inte- personal skills and less to digital inter-personal skills ?
  49. [01:54:36] <tantek> it applies *more* to f2f interpersonal skills, but certainly still applies to online communication modes as well
  50. [01:54:45] <WilleRaab> That is - the largest problem for humanity is that it can communicate. ,-)
  51. [01:54:56] <tantek> heh
  52. [01:55:02] <SignpostMarv> see articles on Aspergers sufferers thriving in online environments
  53. [01:55:43] <SignpostMarv> ah, while your here tantek, I was wondering why your resume doesn't seem to stick to any version of hResume
  54. [01:57:41] <tantek> it hasn't been updated since late 2004
  55. [01:57:49] <tantek> i haven't had the time to update it
  56. [02:00:16] <SignpostMarv> http://hresume.weblogswork.com/hresumecreator/
  57. [02:00:30] * SignpostMarv pokes tantek in the direction of that :-P
  58. [02:02:21] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv: is that 'creator' able to edit old resumes as well?
  59. [02:03:10] <SignpostMarv> old hResume documents ?
  60. [02:03:24] <WilleRaab> yeah.
  61. [02:03:38] <SignpostMarv> doesn't appear to be, but an enterprising Greasemonkey guru could fix that
  62. [02:03:58] <SignpostMarv> e.g. add a text field, then auto-populate the form
  63. [02:04:46] <SignpostMarv> when in doubt, roll your own
  64. [02:04:47] <WilleRaab> mm yeah. That'd be nice.
  65. [02:04:52] <WilleRaab> yeah. ,-)
  66. [02:05:27] <SignpostMarv> the advantage to rolling your own would be that you'd be able to have the export feature preserve the imported document's structure
  67. [02:06:02] <WilleRaab> Just thinking of how it'd be easiest to get companies to start using hResume... Having easy-to-use free tools would prabbably be a way.
  68. [02:06:41] <WilleRaab> Uhm. Dunno the name of the kind of companies I have in mind, in English. *sigh* but companies that link unemployed ppl to other companies that are hiring.
  69. [02:07:05] <SignpostMarv> damn, my mind is blank too
  70. [02:07:08] <SignpostMarv> ah wait
  71. [02:07:11] <SignpostMarv> recruitment agencies
  72. [02:07:23] <WilleRaab> (haha, i'm tired (4 in the nnight here) so i�'m probably just thinking stupid things out loud... :)
  73. [02:07:26] <WilleRaab> ah, yeah!
  74. [02:07:43] <mfbot> [[hresume-authoring]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring * Tantek * (+1094) drafted
  75. [02:07:44] <WilleRaab> There's been a lot of those, web-based, popping up here in Sweden the last couple of years or so.
  76. [02:08:08] <SignpostMarv> well the idea with hResume is that you can host your resume on the webs yourself for auto-discovery purposes
  77. [02:08:19] <SignpostMarv> e.g. rather than submitting your resume to lots and lots of sites,
  78. [02:08:41] <SignpostMarv> the sites just subscribe to hResume indexing services and let them do all the dirty work
  79. [02:08:52] <WilleRaab> hm, i see. Yeah.
  80. [02:09:29] <WilleRaab> The disadvantage (but now I'm only guessing) would be that companies wish to keep their own records, their own databases etc.
  81. [02:09:39] <WilleRaab> Of course, that's doable anyway.
  82. [02:09:42] <tantek> SignpostMarv, thanks for the creator link, I've drafted hresume-authoring (see above from mfbot) with that link.
  83. [02:09:43] <SignpostMarv> succesful adoption of hResume would of course completely obliterate recruitment website business models
  84. [02:09:51] <SignpostMarv> tantek, yw
  85. [02:10:07] <tantek> it wouldn't necessarily obliterate them, but rather, encourage them to evolve
  86. [02:10:14] <SignpostMarv> model:
  87. [02:10:17] <tantek> and those that adapted would survive
  88. [02:10:22] <WilleRaab> It'd force them to shift focus. That'd be cool... =)
  89. [02:10:29] <tantek> whereas those that didn't, well, not everything survives evolution.
  90. [02:10:34] <SignpostMarv> unemployed person uploads resume, business pays to get results
  91. [02:10:40] <SignpostMarv> hresume model:
  92. [02:10:49] <SignpostMarv> business goes to http://google.com/resume
  93. [02:10:54] <SignpostMarv> :P
  94. [02:11:23] <SignpostMarv> yes I'm over-generalising a lot, but that's the way things should go
  95. [02:11:26] <tantek> those same sites could decide to aggregate hResumes from the web as well
  96. [02:11:32] <tantek> there are lots of ways to evolve their models
  97. [02:11:45] <WilleRaab> nah, i'd say that the recruitment companies instead have to focus on getting better desciriptions of what's requested from their clients, and to make good matches.
  98. [02:11:47] <tantek> LinkedIn knows this. As does SimplyHired for example.
  99. [02:12:00] <tantek> it's up to them to decide how to best evolve their business models
  100. [02:12:02] <WilleRaab> Instead of, as is now, focus on getting ppl to write their resumes on the companys website.
  101. [02:12:08] <SignpostMarv> businesses often don't have the infrastructure to search for and maintaion a database of resumes
  102. [02:12:09] <tantek> i do think hResume actually enables more business models
  103. [02:12:14] <tantek> even if it obsoletes some old ones
  104. [02:13:02] <SignpostMarv> an hResume structure is ideal for the common "About" page on an unemployed professional's blog
  105. [02:13:10] <tantek> ok SignpostMarv, I don't have the time to update my resume this second, but I've created a project to do it where I'm jotting down the specific things I need to do to get it done: http://tantek.pbwiki.com/UpdateResume200707
  106. [02:13:19] * SignpostMarv grumbles at his own incorrect apostrophe usage
  107. [02:13:24] <tantek> I'll get to it ;)
  108. [02:14:00] <tantek> in the meantime, if you would like to, by all means, add to http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring
  109. [02:15:18] <WilleRaab> tantek: on http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-authoring there's a [hResume-examples] that doesn't exist, but in the section "Related pages" there's a page named "resume-examples" that does exist. Is that supposed to be the same or is there a new page to be maed?
  110. [02:15:54] * SignpostMarv is writing Smarty templates from scratch to implement hResume on his current project
  111. [02:17:53] <tantek> WilleRaab it could be edited to point to the examples in the wild instead
  112. [02:17:58] <tantek> go for it
  113. [02:18:03] <WilleRaab> ok. =)
  114. [02:18:27] <WilleRaab> (As you can tell i'm a bit cautius w the editing right now.... )
  115. [02:18:35] * SignpostMarv guesses that {foo#bar} syntax doesn't work to include only a section of an article in another article
  116. [02:18:46] <tantek> until we have some inline examples to create an hresume-examples page directly
  117. [02:18:55] <tantek> it works to link though
  118. [02:19:03] <SignpostMarv> WilleRaab: when in doubt, use both the preview and changes buttons :-)
  119. [02:19:59] <mfbot> [[hresume-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-authoring&diff=0&oldid=18535 * WilleRaab * (-1) Creating a new hResume - link-change hresume-examples to resume-examples
  120. [02:20:24] <WilleRaab> SignpostMarv: yeah... :-D
  121. [02:20:48] <WilleRaab> ... right now microformats is a bit too new for me to comfortably make changes without asking first... =)
  122. [02:21:14] <WilleRaab> I'll probably get over with that, if I stick around. :)
  123. [02:21:32] <tantek> ah i think you meant hresume-examples-in-wild
  124. [02:21:45] <tantek> resume-examples were used as research for the development of hResume
  125. [02:21:50] <WilleRaab> uhm, no, sry for being unspecific.
  126. [02:21:54] <WilleRaab> Ah. :)
  127. [02:22:01] <tantek> they're actually quite different ;)
  128. [02:22:18] <WilleRaab> =)
  129. [02:22:40] <WilleRaab> "example usage of various classes within hResume." <- felt like a description of what the other was 'bout.
  130. [02:22:45] <WilleRaab> *changing*
  131. [02:22:46] <SignpostMarv> hrm
  132. [02:22:49] <SignpostMarv> i just had a thought
  133. [02:22:53] * SignpostMarv goes and checks the hresume spec
  134. [02:23:30] <mfbot> [[hresume-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-authoring&diff=0&oldid=18536 * WilleRaab * (+9) Creating a new hResume - changing the link to hresume-examples-in-wild....
  135. [02:23:40] <WilleRaab> (btw i love the bot...)
  136. [02:23:55] <WilleRaab> Didn't have that on the swedish wikipedia, would've been nice.
  137. [02:25:16] <SignpostMarv> tantek: shouldn't hListing be integrated into hResume ?
  138. [02:26:00] <tantek> not necessarily
  139. [02:26:02] <SignpostMarv> a person's opening statement about themselves in a resume seems to fit the structure of "selling ones' self"
  140. [02:26:02] <tantek> hResume simply describes a person
  141. [02:26:16] <tantek> hListing describes the semantic of a proposed transaction as it were
  142. [02:26:20] <SignpostMarv> http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-extended-examples#Personal_.2F_Match.com
  143. [02:26:37] <tantek> an hResume is not necessarily selling yourself
  144. [02:26:45] <tantek> it could just be a static description for reference purposes
  145. [02:26:50] <SignpostMarv> it is if you're seeking employment
  146. [02:26:56] <tantek> the intent of seeking employment is independent of the job history
  147. [02:27:22] <SignpostMarv> the intent of seeking employment could be indicated with an hListing in the hResume though, yes ?
  148. [02:27:24] <tantek> you could embed an hListing into the objective statement of an hResume for example
  149. [02:27:34] <tantek> heh. yes. :)
  150. [02:27:48] <tantek> it's like noun (hResume) vs. verb (hListing)
  151. [02:29:08] <SignpostMarv> would it make sense to explicitly state in the spec that "if an hListing structure is found within the hResume document where the lister url is identical to the rel="me" url found in the hResume's hCard, then parsers should indicate this person is actively seeking employment" ?
  152. [02:29:34] <tantek> it's an interesting idea - perhaps add it to hresume-brainstorming
  153. [02:29:44] <tantek> for consideration/deliberation
  154. [02:29:54] <tantek> and of course try it out in the wild with your own resume
  155. [02:30:28] <SignpostMarv> on a seperate topic, any chance of the microformats wiki supporting OpenID logins ?
  156. [02:30:32] * shawn (n=shawn@h46078c1b.area7.spcsdns.net) has joined #microformats
  157. [02:31:46] <tantek> SignpostMarv, perhaps add it to the "to-do" list if it isn't already there.
  158. [02:31:57] <SignpostMarv> linky ?
  159. [02:32:00] <tantek> /wiki/to-do
  160. [02:33:14] <tantek> and when you do login, please consider adding the public-domain-release to your user page per http://microformats.org/wiki/Category:public_domain_license
  161. [02:33:17] <tantek> thanks much!
  162. [02:33:20] <tantek> bbiab
  163. [02:33:24] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl001-150-252.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  164. [02:33:47] <mfbot> [[User:SignpostMarv]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:SignpostMarv * SignpostMarv * (+25)
  165. [02:36:23] <mfbot> [[hresume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18537 * SignpostMarv * (+40) Possible Extensions - made structure modification to prep for hListing suggestion
  166. [02:39:07] * iwaim__ (i=iwai@gateway.alib.jp) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  167. [02:43:53] <WilleRaab> well well, bedtime. cu.
  168. [02:44:02] <SignpostMarv> toodles
  169. [02:47:59] <mfbot> [[hListing]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hListing * SignpostMarv * (+22) added redirect prior to commiting hresume extension suggestion edit
  170. [02:51:11] <mfbot> [[hresume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18538 * SignpostMarv * (+1433) Actively Seeking Employment: using [[hListing]] with [[hResume]] to indicate whether a person is actively seeking employment or not.
  171. [02:52:20] <SignpostMarv> that was rather more lengthy than I had planned :-P
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  187. [06:12:07] * Samir_Patel is now known as Samir
  188. [06:13:52] <Samir> hello
  189. [06:14:27] <Samir> hello
  190. [06:15:45] * Samir (n=chatzill@adsl-75-12-77-161.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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  192. [06:17:06] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18539 * RobManson * (+2682) Added 6 real world example receipt descriptions from my records - says way too much about my spending habits :)
  193. [06:21:57] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  194. [06:30:31] <SignpostMarv> hrm
  195. [06:30:38] <SignpostMarv> didn't know there was a receipt microformat
  196. [06:30:46] <nambor> isn't yet
  197. [06:31:04] <nambor> we've just started collecting examples with an aim to build a proposal
  198. [06:31:09] <SignpostMarv> cool
  199. [06:31:10] <nambor> feel free to join in ;)
  200. [06:31:15] <SignpostMarv> I've got lots of receipts archived
  201. [06:31:20] <nambor> great
  202. [06:31:33] <nambor> i'm just writing up an overview of the general "commerce" space too
  203. [06:31:40] <SignpostMarv> from 12 different sites
  204. [06:31:52] <nambor> aiming to map how the existing microformats and receipts, etc all fit together
  205. [06:32:15] <nambor> "12 different sites" is excellent - that's a good cross section
  206. [06:34:47] <SignpostMarv> Asda (groceries), CDWOW, Currys (white goods), DVD.co.uk, Insurance, receipt of complaint sent to Financial Services Ombudsman, Prescription Pre-Payment certificate, play.com, restore.com, skype
  207. [06:34:56] <SignpostMarv> two of the arcived receipts seem borked
  208. [06:35:48] <nambor> receipt of complain may not really fit into this set of examples - but add it and we can review that in the analysis phase I guess
  209. [06:36:09] <SignpostMarv> not sure why i put it in the receipts folder :-P
  210. [06:36:31] <nambor> did it get a good result? ombudsmen usually do ;)
  211. [06:36:37] <SignpostMarv> oh yus
  212. [06:37:05] <nambor> if you have any invoices/bills (e.g. before the payment) then please add them too
  213. [06:37:07] <SignpostMarv> same for the Telecomms Ombudsman :-3
  214. [06:44:06] <SignpostMarv> hrm
  215. [06:44:18] <SignpostMarv> re: examples, would an image suffice so i don't have to sanitize the html ?
  216. [06:44:28] <SignpostMarv> ooh, this is interesting
  217. [06:44:52] <SignpostMarv> you know the bit on a receipt where they say how muych everything cost- items, shipping, tax etc ?
  218. [06:44:59] <SignpostMarv> Skype call it an "Order resume"
  219. [06:56:21] <mfbot> [[receipt-example-skype-phone]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt-example-skype-phone * SignpostMarv * (+3132)
  220. [06:57:52] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18540 * SignpostMarv * (+446) Real-World Examples - added skype phone
  221. [07:00:32] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) has joined #microformats
  222. [07:01:10] <SignpostMarv> there's actually some relatively semantic class names in skype's source doe
  223. [07:03:29] <mfbot> [[orphans]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=orphans&diff=0&oldid=18541 * AndyMabbett * (+19) fixed link (please check "what links here" before moving pages)
  224. [07:05:15] <mfbot> [[how-to-play]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=18542 * AndyMabbett * (+108) check "what links here" before moving pages
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  228. [07:28:09] <nambor> SignpostMarv: sorry was out for a meeting - yeah I think images are fine
  229. [07:38:02] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18543 * RobManson * (+39) Added link to wikipedia's Receipt page - some useful distinctions here
  230. [07:38:25] * SignpostMarv already uploaded the source due to some interesting semi-semanticness
  231. [07:38:51] <nambor> ;)
  232. [07:39:04] <SignpostMarv> http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt-example-skype-phone
  233. [07:39:21] <SignpostMarv> one thing i find really odd though
  234. [07:39:52] <SignpostMarv> <p><strong>Yourd order has been received....</strong</p> vs <span class="bold">Confirmation of incoming order</span><br>
  235. [07:40:24] <SignpostMarv> the order receipt table uses a class of "order-listing"
  236. [07:41:12] <SignpostMarv> there's three row classes: row, totals-row and grandtotal-row
  237. [07:46:56] <nambor> so row is purchase items (unit price, qty*unit price & tax) - totals-row is sum of each of those columns and grandtotal-row is the final sum (amount payable) - yeah?
  238. [07:47:33] <nambor> that's pretty close to the structure within the others I entered
  239. [07:47:52] <SignpostMarv> dumb question:
  240. [07:48:13] <SignpostMarv> hReceipt would use tables right ?
  241. [07:48:31] <nambor> mmm...i don't think that would be a requirement would it?
  242. [07:49:20] <nambor> tables are used for presentation in this context and that's really a css issue - unless you mean something else
  243. [07:50:42] <SignpostMarv> tables for data
  244. [07:51:05] <nambor> could do...but should be a requirement should it?
  245. [07:51:53] <nambor> sorry s/should/shouldn't/
  246. [07:56:12] <SignpostMarv> okay, hypothetically speaking you could use a div/span or ul/li/span combo, but if the html structure of every real-world example is tabular, should the spec say "use tables" ?
  247. [07:59:02] <nambor> i'd pass that on to the old timers around here 8) - but I would guess that using classes etc. we should be able to handle both seamlessly
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  250. [08:15:36] <SignpostMarv> for the user-readable data thing, tables vs li/span doesn't matter,
  251. [08:16:28] <SignpostMarv> but for machine readable stuffages, there's an explicit relationship between the table cells
  252. [08:18:05] <SignpostMarv> with li/span the relationship is only implied
  253. [08:26:11] <nambor> i think the implied structure could be sufficient and based upon examples i've seen, mandating tables would require changes to existing systems
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  258. [08:56:56] <mfbot> [[commerce-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/commerce-examples * RobManson * (+2591) Created an initial draft of the commerce domain overview
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  271. [10:17:47] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18544 * Alex * (+333) Add Yours Here -
  272. [10:18:18] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=18545 * Alex * (+1) Alessandro Martin -
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  274. [10:40:50] <mfbot> [[receipt-example-skype-phone]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-example-skype-phone&diff=0&oldid=18546 * AndyMabbett * (-931) cleanup
  275. [10:42:21] <mfbot> [[User talk:Alex]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:Alex * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
  276. [10:43:30] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  277. [10:51:07] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18547 * AndyMabbett * (-903) moving to separate page
  278. [10:55:43] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18548 * AndyMabbett * (+12) see also
  279. [10:55:49] <mfbot> [[receipt]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/receipt * AndyMabbett * (+1242) moved; add use cases
  280. [11:15:11] <mfbot> [[User talk:SignpostMarv]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:SignpostMarv * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
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  283. [11:42:08] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-elevation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18549 * AndyMabbett * (-2) fix formatting
  284. [11:42:34] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-elevation]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18550 * AndyMabbett * (+0) fix formatting
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  286. [11:45:45] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18551 * AndyMabbett * (+145) Post vCard additions - another example
  287. [11:48:02] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-elevation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-elevation&diff=0&oldid=18552 * AndyMabbett * (-632) Real-World Examples - moving to own page
  288. [11:49:33] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18553 * AndyMabbett * (-729) Post vCard additions - moving to conslidate
  289. [11:50:44] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18554 * AndyMabbett * (+1386) moved
  290. [11:52:25] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18555 * AndyMabbett * (+198) preamble
  291. [11:54:31] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18556 * AndyMabbett * (+229) State High Points - add header row for clarity
  292. [11:58:07] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples&diff=0&oldid=18557 * AndyMabbett * (+163) atribution
  293. [11:59:18] <mfbot> [[geo-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18558 * AndyMabbett * (+34) altitude - see geo-extension-elevation
  294. [12:05:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=18559 * AndyMabbett * (+38) see also
  295. [12:07:01] * logan_koester is now known as logankoester
  296. [12:07:05] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18560 * AndyMabbett * (+1) Elevation - dab
  297. [12:08:31] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18561 * AndyMabbett * (+96) Note - CalConnect vCard Workshop
  298. [12:09:07] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=18562 * AndyMabbett * (+18) Note - dab
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  304. [13:36:27] <mfbot> [[audio-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=18563 * ManuSporny * (+346) Mashups, remixes, cut-ups and audio-collages -
  305. [13:37:03] <mfbot> [[audio-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=audio-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=18564 * ManuSporny * (-12) Top Lists -
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  321. [14:46:31] <mfbot> [[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18565 * RobManson * (+275) Added a simple hCard for myself
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  323. [14:48:48] <mfbot> [[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18566 * RobManson * (+61) Added our product URL to my hCard
  324. [14:50:05] <nambor> anyone here have any class warfare issues for hCard's on the wiki - e.g. my postal address works fine with operator on my own site but if I paste the exact same code into my User page operator seems to drop the fields :(
  325. [14:50:12] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  326. [14:50:29] <mfbot> [[User talk:RobManson]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:RobManson * AndyMabbett * (+71) Welcome!
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  328. [14:55:55] <briansuda> it is probably an issue with MediaWiki and certain elements
  329. [14:56:08] <nambor> :(
  330. [14:56:29] <nambor> that's kinda ironic that our wiki fights with uF's
  331. [14:59:07] <briansuda> wikipedia has a similar issue with ABBR
  332. [14:59:35] <nambor> is it worth me identifying the exact issue or is that just a waste of my time?
  333. [15:01:00] <mfbot> [[User:AndyMabbett]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:AndyMabbett&diff=0&oldid=18567 * AndyMabbett * (+570) update
  334. [15:01:06] <briansuda> you should because it might already be a known issue or not?
  335. [15:02:01] <mfbot> [[User:RobManson]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobManson&diff=0&oldid=18568 * RobManson * (+319) Fixed adr issue with MediaWiki adding useless <p/>'s
  336. [15:02:10] <nambor> ;) was simpler than I thought
  337. [15:02:44] <nambor> should I document that anywhere in particular?
  338. [15:05:49] <briansuda> not sure where would be best
  339. [15:06:09] <nambor> ok...it's logged here anywya
  340. [15:06:44] <briansuda> can you paste in what you were trying and what worked? then it is fully documents
  341. [15:07:21] <nambor> I simply ran all spans/divs together on one line so MediWiki didn't add spurious <p/>'s to the markup
  342. [15:07:51] <nambor> previously I had them laid out pretty printer style
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  347. [15:29:14] <nambor> hi michael - just replying to your email with a bug report
  348. [15:29:48] <nambor> but also have a question I might ask here - will DOMAttrModified catch an update to a textarea's contents
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  354. [15:48:25] <mkaply> nambor: Hmm
  355. [15:48:32] <mkaply> I honestly don't know.
  356. [15:48:45] <mkaply> But a text area contents won't be parsed as DOM nodes.
  357. [15:49:02] <nambor> ah...mmm indeed
  358. [15:49:53] <nambor> that doesn't bode well for editable form based hCards or any other uF that use textareas
  359. [15:50:08] <nambor> they'll always parse using the loaded page source then
  360. [15:50:35] <nambor> which is fine...just potentially confusing user experience
  361. [15:51:35] <briansuda> textarea content can only contain strings, not more mark-up
  362. [15:51:59] <nambor> yeah...strings are ok
  363. [15:52:26] <briansuda> so what is the confusing user experience of parsing come in?
  364. [15:52:40] <mkaply> I'm not sure what you mean. a text area is just string value of a DOM node.
  365. [15:52:47] <nambor> but say you use <textarea class="region"></textarea> for example
  366. [15:52:52] <mkaply> When would you have a situation where the user types in and it updates live?
  367. [15:53:03] <nambor> operator will always export that as empty
  368. [15:53:03] <mkaply> I guess I'm trying to figure out when that would happen
  369. [15:53:15] <nambor> even if the user updates the content of the textarea
  370. [15:53:38] <mkaply> So you're trying to create an action where someone fills out a form and then operator immediately exports something?
  371. [15:53:49] <nambor> we use this type of UI for displaying user records
  372. [15:53:52] <mkaply> why wouldn't you just have them fill a form, click submit and generate a page with the microformat?
  373. [15:53:52] <briansuda> textarea is the same as SPAN, so it depends on when Operator updates it´s internal DOM
  374. [15:54:18] <mkaply> The problem is I can't listen to all DOM node updates. It's bad for performance.
  375. [15:54:29] <nambor> it's a UX design pattern that is reasonably common
  376. [15:54:38] <mkaply> I experimented with an way for a web page to send a message to operator to update microformats.
  377. [15:54:40] <mkaply> But I removed it
  378. [15:54:51] <nambor> i understand the performance penalty...I'm just trying to understand the limitations
  379. [15:55:06] <briansuda> i´m not seeing how this is a common thing?
  380. [15:55:34] <nambor> see http://mobileonlinebusiness.com.au/uf/hCard_form.html for a nasty js workaround I did for form display of an hCard
  381. [15:55:37] <mkaply> I picture what he's saying. A lot of navigation of databses with user data is done with that data as entryfields
  382. [15:56:10] <nambor> but discussing it with tantek (and I agree) it would be cleaner to have single fields instead of the hidden values
  383. [15:56:52] <nambor> tantek is looking at extending the parsing rules to include <input type="text" class="..." value="..."/>
  384. [15:57:00] <briansuda> i can see a use-case for PASTING into predefined fields, a la, live clipboard
  385. [15:57:36] <briansuda> the problem is the dynamic nature of input gives you different results depending on client or server side
  386. [15:57:47] <nambor> yep...but a lot of users will also just type into fields
  387. [15:57:50] <briansuda> so i don´t see many people doing this AND relying on a client-side app
  388. [15:57:59] <nambor> we update the vars via ajax
  389. [15:58:11] <nambor> so say a user views a form like my example
  390. [15:58:21] <nambor> then clicks update and essentially the UI stays the same
  391. [15:58:26] * mkaply has to run. talk more later
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  393. [15:58:29] <nambor> then tries to export the new record as a vcard
  394. [15:58:38] <briansuda> flickr is a good example... after you update the form, it also updates the HTML
  395. [15:59:23] <nambor> sure that's do-able...but not all apps do that
  396. [16:00:01] <briansuda> so you are having a default value from the DB in an input instead of span?
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  419. [17:50:43] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  420. [17:52:25] <mfbot> [[Template:welcome]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:welcome&diff=0&oldid=18569 * AndyMabbett * (+89) copy edit and add note about using hCards on user pages
  421. [17:55:36] <mfbot> [[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcards-on-microformats-wiki * AndyMabbett * (+421)
  422. [17:55:57] <mfbot> [[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18570 * AndyMabbett * (+11) dab
  423. [17:56:33] <mfbot> [[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18571 * AndyMabbett * (+5) *...
  424. [17:57:14] <mfbot> [[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18572 * AndyMabbett * (-11)
  425. [17:58:10] <mfbot> [[hcards-on-microformats-wiki]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcards-on-microformats-wiki&diff=0&oldid=18573 * AndyMabbett * (+72) descriptions
  426. [18:00:50] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("Bye!")
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  441. [19:57:39] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18574 * RobManson * (-2) Added external link to example receipt
  442. [19:57:46] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-37b5ad014b839858) Quit ("Fades out again…")
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  455. [21:51:20] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18575 * Lastorset * (+158) Receipts - Added example sections that are pending uploads
  456. [22:00:46] <mfbot> [[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18576 * Lastorset * (+44) Google Checkout - there are to be two Google receipts
  457. [22:11:50] * danja (n=danja@host239-218-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
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  460. [22:34:24] <mfbot> [[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=18577 * DrErnie * (+190) RFC 4946
  461. [22:34:40] <mfbot> [[rellicense-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rellicense-issues&diff=0&oldid=18578 * DrErnie * (+0) Issues -
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.