IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-07-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
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[[NewMicroformatHowto]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=NewMicroformatHowto&diff=0&oldid=18660 * ManuSporny * (+1716) Step 1: Determine if a New Microformat is Needed -
- [02:14:56] <mfbot>
[[NewMicroformatHowto]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=NewMicroformatHowto&diff=0&oldid=18661 * ManuSporny * (+63) Step 1: Determine if a New Microformat is Needed -
- [02:15:32] <mfbot>
[[NewMicroformatHowto]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=NewMicroformatHowto&diff=0&oldid=18662 * ManuSporny * (-2) Step 1: Determine if a New Microformat is Needed -
- [02:17:48] <mfbot>
[[NewMicroformatHowto]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=NewMicroformatHowto&diff=0&oldid=18663 * ManuSporny * (-2) Step 1: Determine if a New Microformat is Needed -
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[[User:RobertBachmann]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobertBachmann&diff=0&oldid=18664 * RobertBachmann * (-340)
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[[User:RobertBachmann]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:RobertBachmann&diff=0&oldid=18665 * RobertBachmann * (+27) pd
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[[picoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=18666 * TekeTen * (+55) References -
- [15:40:38] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/twitternanoformats * TekeTen * (+4959)
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[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18667 * TekeTen * (+182)
- [15:54:45] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18668 * TekeTen * (-2) Twitter (or Jaiku) picoformats proposal -
- [15:56:26] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18669 * TekeTen * (-41) Some apps supporting some kind of nanoformat -
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[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18670 * TekeTen * (-4)
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- [15:58:13] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18671 * TekeTen * (+34) Twitter (or Jaiku) picoformats proposal -
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- [16:06:20] <mfbot>
[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18672 * TekeTen * (+2) 3nanoformats (syntax:param:param) -
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[[twitternanoformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=twitternanoformats&diff=0&oldid=18673 * TekeTen * (+75) Use examples -
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[[species-examples-quantitative]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species-examples-quantitative&diff=0&oldid=18674 * AndyMabbett * (-77) Evidence - +Grassbase: 72K more - enough, yet? (& defeat stupid spam filter)
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[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18675 * Lastorset * (+448) Receipts - new samples awaiting upload
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[[User:Phae]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Phae&diff=0&oldid=18676 * Phae * (-42)
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- [21:12:21] <mkaply>
tantek: So if someone puts a microformat class on a textarea, what is the right thing to do? Looking at the DOM APIs, textContent seems to give the text of the textarea when created, not its current contents
- [21:12:27] <mkaply>
Should I be smarter?
- [21:12:56] <tantek>
greetings
- [21:13:11] <tantek>
interesting
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- [21:13:27] <tantek>
yes there is the general question of how to parse microformats on form elements
- [21:13:36] <tantek>
which i simply neglected to document
- [21:13:38] <tantek>
(my bad)
- [21:13:43] <tantek>
so my straw thoughts are
- [21:13:56] <tantek>
for <input> elements, use the 'value' attribute as the value of the property
- [21:14:12] <tantek>
er, make that for <input type="text"> specifically
- [21:14:24] <tantek>
for <textarea> as well i think
- [21:14:45] <tantek>
because i believe that the textContent doesn't change (it's what was sent with the page), but the actual value is set in the "value" attribute
- [21:14:53] <tantek>
i could be wrong - you should double check
- [21:15:09] <mkaply>
Nope, I think you are right.
- [21:15:26] <mkaply>
I can't update the UI as they change stuff though. That would get a little icky
- [21:15:31] <mkaply>
Like I use fn for the menuitems
- [21:15:42] <mkaply>
And if fn were tied to an entry field, I wouldn't update the UI when it was changed
- [21:15:46] <mkaply>
But I would export the current value
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- [21:45:00] <tantek>
mkaply, OT1H, having defined parsing rules for form elements simply helps hCard parsing be thorough and well specified
- [21:45:17] <tantek>
OTOH it also opens the door for forms auto-fill of hCards
- [21:45:31] <mkaply>
true. And I know there are DB interfaces that are all textarea/entryfields.
- [21:45:35] <tantek>
so if you go to a site that needs your contact info for something, say an ecommerce site for checkout
- [21:45:44] <tantek>
and if the form fields are marked up with hCard semantics
- [21:45:52] <mkaply>
I'll probably special case textarea/textfields in Operator so that the values are not stored, they are always computed on the fly
- [21:45:56] <tantek>
then perhaps we could consider having that mean "insert hCard here"
- [21:46:02] <tantek>
which operator could detect
- [21:46:14] <tantek>
and let you "pre-fill" with *your* hCard info
- [21:46:26] <tantek>
and then all of a sudden we have a standard for forms auto-fill
- [21:47:14] <tantek>
rather than all the hacks that have gone into browsers since 1999 (starting with IE4.5/Mac which I'm pretty sure was the first to do forms auto-fill of an entire form with a single button press - not just auto-complete of each form field individually)
- [21:47:35] <tantek>
obviously this would make sense to build into *existing* forms auto-fill features in Firefox and IE
- [21:47:41] <tantek>
and any other browsers that support it
- [21:47:46] <tantek>
and this way new sites could simply conform to the standard
- [21:48:02] <tantek>
rather than depend on hacks which parse label values etc. and imply things and get them wrong sometimes
- [21:48:23] <tantek>
and hCard annotated form inputs would also be more international,
- [21:48:28] <mkaply>
good point.
- [21:48:46] <tantek>
thus avoiding the need for each browser to guess what is the "name" and "telephone" field in every language
- [21:49:04] <tantek>
so they can do forms auto-fill on any site regardless of language, not just English
- [21:52:56] <mfbot>
[[hreview-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=18677 * SergioSantos * (+108) New Examples -
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- [21:57:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18678 * Tantek * (-39) collapse two separate parsing sections into one
- [21:58:09] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18679 * Tantek * (+13)
- [21:58:20] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18680 * Tantek * (-4)
- [21:58:43] <tantek>
mkaply, see http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#INPUT_element_handling for previous discussion on INPUT element handling
- [21:58:52] <tantek>
I will add what I wrote above in IRC also so it doesn't get lost
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- [22:05:17] <mkaply>
tantek: but when you say "use value" you mean, use the current value that is in the field, not what "value" was set to when the field was loaded
- [22:08:18] <tantek>
mkaply, excellent question
- [22:08:29] <tantek>
which do you think it should be? (I have my guess, but I want your opinion)
- [22:08:56] <mkaply>
I think it should be the current value. Because I like the idea that I can have a page that I update interactively and export an hcard/vcard that is exactly what is on screen
- [22:11:08] <tantek>
ok, makes sense
- [22:11:16] <tantek>
for *interactive* useragents then right?
- [22:11:22] <tantek>
(w3c terminology ;) )
- [22:12:12] <mkaply>
yes. For interactive useragents
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- [22:19:12] <tantek>
excellent
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- [22:28:40] <luur>
hey guys, im new to microformats, but before knowing about this i was drafting up a sort of a standard for Events in XML
- [22:28:49] * mefisto|w is now known as mefisto
- [22:29:25] <luur>
by events i mean things like concerts, plays, etc
- [22:30:13] <luur>
hCalender seems to be doing this, but its missing some key things
- [22:31:27] <mkaply>
luur: what's it missing?
- [22:34:24] <luur>
well a few things
- [22:35:05] <luur>
im trying work out some of the semantics
- [22:35:27] <luur>
but more importantly I want it to be used
- [22:35:52] <luur>
is microformats the way to go?
- [22:36:12] <luur>
i heard that firefox 3 will be supporting it
- [22:38:54] <mkaply>
Well, we're doing something in Firefox 3 for microformats.
- [22:39:23] <mkaply>
I think microformats is the way to go. Sites like upcoming.org already use it for events
- [22:40:11] <luur>
interesting
- [22:41:46] <luur>
mkaply: http://yz2zy.com/events.xml
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- [22:42:23] <mkaply>
so vevent doesn't have ticket price. But the rest could be pretty well contained
- [22:42:34] <mkaply>
and min age
- [22:43:00] <luur>
artist?
- [22:43:17] <luur>
or tags, also does it specify end time?
- [22:43:32] <kingryan>
you can use attendee or artist
- [22:43:41] <kingryan>
and yes it does specify end time
- [22:43:51] <kingryan>
s/or/for/
- [22:43:58] * mkaply has to run. Lots of fokls to answer Qs here
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- [22:45:23] <luur>
interesting
- [22:45:39] <luur>
kingryan: does how does artist work
- [22:46:09] <kingryan>
by using ATTENDEE from icalendar
- [22:48:38] <luur>
how are hCalendar and vEvent related?
- [22:48:38] <luur>
are they the same ?
- [22:49:21] <tantek>
luur, "vevent" is one of the class names used by hCalendar
- [22:49:42] <luur>
?
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- [22:52:30] <luur>
so hCalender parents vCalender parents vEvent ?
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- [23:08:12] <tantek>
luur, what do you mean by parents?
- [23:08:33] <tantek>
perhaps start with reading the spec http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar and ask specific questions about anything there you don't understand
- [23:08:47] <luur>
good idea :D
- [23:09:04] <tantek>
and reference the section/text which you don't understand and I'll do my best to both answer your question and hopefully improve the text in the spec as well
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- [23:20:39] <mfbot>
[[receipt-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=receipt-examples&diff=0&oldid=18681 * RobManson * (+40) Fixed up URL type
- [23:22:50] <tantek>
luur, for things like ticket price, that sounds more like a listing of an item for sale, where the item is an event. take a look that the hListing draft/proposal
- [23:22:54] <tantek>
at the
- [23:23:02] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting
- [23:24:20] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18682 * Tantek * (+1883) added more to INPUT element handling - re: TEXTAREA, forms auto-fill from IRC discussions today
- [23:25:42] <tantek>
mkaply, if u r still here, I've updated http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#INPUT_element_handling per the above IRC discussion that we had. I've used the "current value" terminology you suggested and linked to the definition of "current value" in HTML 4.01 for forms elements.
- [23:25:46] <tantek>
Take a look
- [23:26:01] <luur>
[6:43:55PM] * mkaply (i=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-0c931a7fdb788d6f) Quit ("Leaving")
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- [23:26:36] <luur>
tantek: I guess using multiple cards per page is fine
- [23:27:08] <luur>
I have my XML in mind, where I had all the information in one file
- [23:28:58] <mefisto>
emm .. guys
- [23:29:02] <mefisto>
one question
- [23:29:49] <mefisto>
can protect somehow my info from spambots ? like mail, name, address ?
- [23:32:13] <luur>
how about a link to an image of your mail/name/address
- [23:32:23] <luur>
but I dont know if thats allowed lol
- [23:33:26] <WilleRaab>
The link for "using hCards in your blog" in hcard-brainstorming is broken. Anyone know a good blog to replace it with=
- [23:33:27] <WilleRaab>
?
- [23:39:00] <tantek>
mefisto, don't publish it on the web
- [23:39:17] <tantek>
WilleRaab, what's the bad link URL?
- [23:39:29] <WilleRaab>
http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog
- [23:39:54] <WilleRaab>
(I've searched the site for it, so it doesn't seem to simply be moved..)
- [23:39:55] <tantek>
wow that's too bad
- [23:39:56] <mefisto>
tantek, but hCards are on web
- [23:40:12] <mefisto>
and if i want one , i think i cant protect it
- [23:40:13] <tantek>
mefisto, hCards markup existing contact information on the web
- [23:40:30] <tantek>
subtle but important distinction
- [23:41:05] <WilleRaab>
mefisto: in the hcard-brainstorm page I, I believe it was, I read something 'bout stopping spambots. w8
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- [23:41:18] <mefisto>
k
- [23:41:25] <WilleRaab>
mefisto: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Spam_prevention
- [23:42:24] <WilleRaab>
Don't now if it's good to use though ... havn't seen it before, seem clever but I'd rather take some (ok a lot) spam than risk that some users can't use my site.
- [23:43:17] <tantek>
WilleRaab, this might be a good substitute article: http://24ways.org/2006/styling-hcards-with-css
- [23:43:46] <WilleRaab>
great. :)
- [23:43:47] <tantek>
it seems to be an update/improved version of the article which is no longer online
- [23:43:58] <tantek>
could you fix it where you found it?
- [23:44:01] <tantek>
thanks much!
- [23:44:11] <WilleRaab>
of course.
- [23:44:17] <mefisto>
WilleRaab, btw, one more question , can spambots understand clientside xslt ?
- [23:45:04] <WilleRaab>
mefisto: sorry, can't help you there, don't have a clue. My exp from spambots is that the advanced ones aren't very common...
- [23:45:28] <mefisto>
any places i could asked (on this server) ?
- [23:47:06] * ramsey (i=ramsey@pdpc/supporter/active/ramsey) Quit ("Leaving")
- [23:51:41] <tantek>
mefisto, spambots can potentially "understand" (or rather, execute) any programmatic technology
- [23:52:07] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18683 * AndyMabbett * (+36) Contributors - sign
- [23:53:04] <mefisto>
that sux =/ .. but i guess its true
- [23:53:24] <tantek>
essentially, don't underestimate Skynet.
- [23:55:39] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=18684 * WilleRaab * (+335) Noted invalid link and added another link.
- [23:55:40] <luur>
lol
- [23:56:00] <luur>
tantek: you mean Google?
- [23:56:02] <luur>
;D
- [23:56:08] <WilleRaab>
Urgh.. Google.. :(
- [23:56:37] <luur>
maps.google.com = skynet :D
- [23:57:04] <mefisto>
more like big brother
- [23:57:53] <WilleRaab>
tantek: added that article, it was sweet but however not really on the same topic. So I simply added a text on the (old) link being invalid but the discussion (using 'gravatars' in hcards etc) being interesting.. sort of.. =)
- [23:58:02] <tantek>
luur, see http://twitter.com/t/statuses/142539732
- [23:58:23] <tantek>
i believe the whole point was styling of an hCard to look like a business card
- [23:58:30] <tantek>
with both the old reference and the new
- [23:59:07] <luur>
oh man no way haha
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