IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[04:28:02] <SignpostMarv> something just occured to me
[04:28:07] <SignpostMarv> hAudio + XOXO = playlist
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[04:57:23] <mfbot> [[User:ClayNewton]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:ClayNewton * ClayNewton * (+73)
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[05:05:06] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[05:11:40] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19195 * ClayNewton * (+163)
[05:12:26] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19196 * ClayNewton * (+4)
[05:24:22] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hTrade * ClayNewton * (+923)
[05:31:59] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19197 * ClayNewton * (+217)
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[05:51:15] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19198 * ClayNewton * (+1858)
[05:52:06] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19199 * ClayNewton * (+101)
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[05:52:22] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
[05:52:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19200 * ClayNewton * (+1) Property List -
[05:53:29] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19201 * ClayNewton * (-1) Property List -
[05:54:59] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19202 * ClayNewton * (+0) Property List -
[05:55:25] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19203 * ClayNewton * (-1) Copyright -
[05:59:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19204 * ClayNewton * (+114)
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[06:01:44] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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[06:57:57] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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[07:19:35] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and curator of tools.microformatic.com
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[07:39:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[07:54:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19205 * Tantek * (+374) creation of a draft or even naming a proposed microformat for trade is premature per the [[process]]
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[08:01:43] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
[08:16:59] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19206 * Robert * (+334) Discussion and suggestions -
[08:18:45] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19207 * Tantek * (+817) rephrased assertion about OpenID as FAQ question, and answered: It is URL (by way of DNS) that creates a globally unique identifier, not OpenID.
[08:22:01] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19208 * Tantek * (+0) reorg
[08:29:58] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19209 * Robert * (+227) Discussion and suggestions -
[08:30:44] <mfbot> [[User:Robert]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Robert * Robert * (+38)
[08:45:10] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19210 * Tantek * (+546) sections, added blog posts
[08:50:41] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19211 * Tantek * (+109) added Zeldman post
[08:51:22] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19212 * Tantek * (+42)
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[08:54:08] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19213 * Tantek * (+56) added floated TOC
[08:56:00] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19214 * Tantek * (+201)
[08:56:21] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19215 * Tantek * (+16)
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[08:58:03] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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[09:00:47] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19216 * Tantek * (+101) View blog reactions
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[09:08:02] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/
[09:11:43] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19217 * Robert * (+151)
[09:11:54] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19218 * Robert * (-1)
[09:17:36] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19219 * DenisDefreyne * (+29) Not sure where the hAppcast came from, but it's gone now.
[09:21:05] <ddfreyne> Eh… shouldn't the "Existing schemas" section of http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-examples be transferred to appcast-formats/
[09:21:07] <ddfreyne> ?
[09:27:07] <mfbot> [[appcast-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-formats * DenisDefreyne * (+1674) Moving existing schemas section from appcast-examples to appcast-formats
[09:27:28] <mfbot> [[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=19220 * DenisDefreyne * (-1413) Moving existing schemas section from appcast-examples to appcast-formats
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[09:28:08] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
[09:36:15] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
[09:36:15] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[09:38:45] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19221 * DenisDefreyne * (+408) Adding "Software using appcasts" section
[09:39:11] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19222 * DenisDefreyne * (-1) fixing markup
[09:44:02] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19223 * DenisDefreyne * (+134) Adding appcast links to Exploratory Discussions section
[09:44:25] * Blueberry (n=blue@c211-30-199-122.carlnfd3.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
[09:45:07] <Blueberry> Heya
[09:45:37] <Blueberry> I'm wondering if there's any even slightly established standard for freeform html profiles?
[09:46:41] <Blueberry> I see hCard, but that seems very set to a specific format, and the website I'm working on really aught to be connected with as many standards as it can, but centers around free form profiles which would contain paragraphs, headings, images as blocks, and <dl>'s
[09:47:12] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
[09:47:13] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for Last.fm and can be found at julianstahnke.com
[09:47:18] <briansuda> could you explain further, what you mean by free form profiles?
[09:47:20] <ddfreyne> I'm not sure what you mean by freeform HTML profiles… do you mean user profiles where users can write the HTML themselves?
[09:47:26] <briansuda> just text in prose?
[09:47:31] <tantek> Blueberry, hCard works with a variety of HTML profiles
[09:47:48] * briansuda things profiles means user description
[09:48:00] <tantek> = "note" property in hCard
[09:48:01] <briansuda> not XMDP profiles
[09:48:10] <Blueberry> no, not on my website at least, they'll be using a javascript based wysiwyg editor to add blocks and things and arrage them (not in the typical sense of editable regions, but never the less wysiwyg)
[09:48:14] <ddfreyne> the myspace kind of profiles? ;)
[09:48:21] <Blueberry> yes, user descriptions
[09:48:36] <Blueberry> I don't know anything about how myspace works
[09:48:46] <ddfreyne> I wouldn't want to know either :)
[09:49:39] <Blueberry> the trouble with using hcard with note is that I could only provide hcards with a name and a note inside as those are the only set fields
[09:50:11] <tantek> that's fine
[09:50:19] <tantek> that's certainly better than nothing
[09:50:34] <tantek> you could probably also markup the user icon as "logo"
[09:50:42] <tantek> or if they have any photos mark the up with "photo"
[09:51:00] <SignpostMarv> oxymoron: discussion on myspace in a mostly semantic discussion room
[09:51:03] <Blueberry> well, images and photo's too are provided by the user as image blocks in no clear format
[09:51:26] <tantek> doesn't the service have the notion of a ueser icon though?
[09:51:36] <tantek> nearly all seem to
[09:51:40] * SignpostMarv logs onto his myspace page and checks
[09:51:52] <Blueberry> no, unless their OpenID has a pAvatar :)
[09:52:17] <Blueberry> its a publishing tool, not a social networking tool
[09:53:34] <SignpostMarv> in terms of myspace and hCard, I'd consider the image inside the link with an id of "ctl00_Main_ctl00_UserBasicInformation1_hlDefaultImage" as class="photo"
[09:53:42] <Blueberry> I'd idealy like to have it operate in as open a fashion as possible though as I have no motivation to try and own the user's writings and data
[09:55:44] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) Quit ()
[09:56:01] <SignpostMarv> it seems everyone's profile that has a default photo setup has a link with that ID
[09:57:55] <Blueberry> I wish there was an OpenID enabled video sharing website :/
[09:58:15] <SignpostMarv> make one :P
[09:58:24] <Blueberry> I'm moneyless
[09:58:38] <Blueberry> I'm so moneyless i'm using php instead of rails just because I can't afford to host rails
[09:58:54] <SignpostMarv> wp_mu + wp open ID plugin that creates local users + video plugins = openID enabled video sharing website
[09:58:54] <Blueberry> stoopid php x.x
[09:59:08] <Blueberry> hmm o_o
[10:00:02] <Blueberry> Still, I don't have the storage, bandwidth, and so on to run a site like that, as it is i'm planning to be running the site off donated shared server space on mediatemple..
[10:00:20] <ddfreyne> I'm struggling a bit with a downloads microformat I'm trying to enhance so it can work with appcast microformat stuff…
[10:00:36] <ddfreyne> The idea is to have a single HTML page which application update tools can fetch and parse to check for updates
[10:00:56] <ddfreyne> However, a single HTML page *could* contain version info for more than one application, architecture, OS, etc
[10:01:29] <ddfreyne> so I'm looking for a way to distinguish between all those "types"… adding an os/arch/app field, for example
[10:01:40] <ddfreyne> but that is likely going to be overly complex…
[10:02:14] <ddfreyne> one possibility would be to allow a single html page to contain only one appcast for only one app, one arch, one OS…
[10:02:21] * Blueberry nags DailyMotion to support openid instead
[10:02:27] <ddfreyne> which may be a bit limiting, but would make stuff a *lot* easier…
[10:02:30] <ddfreyne> any thoughts?
[10:09:43] * Blueberry nags Revver next
[10:09:57] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: <ul><li class="download_microformat_root_class_name"></li><li class="download_microformat_root_class_name"></li></ul>
[10:10:14] <SignpostMarv> Blueberry: try blip.tv- they seem pretty up on the web2.0 shizznit
[10:10:22] <Blueberry> okay!
[10:10:27] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: eh… not sure what you mean by that
[10:10:46] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: appcasts are based on hAtom
[10:10:53] <Blueberry> and they're not fugly like youtube :P
[10:10:55] <ddfreyne> are → will be
[10:11:04] <SignpostMarv> the root class name for a microformt defines that element as being the container for a microformat
[10:11:50] <ddfreyne> … and?
[10:11:53] <SignpostMarv> put the rel-enclosure inside the <li>
[10:12:09] <SignpostMarv> define the metadata for the downloads microformat inside the <li>
[10:12:10] <ddfreyne> I don't use ul or li; I use hAtom with rel-enclosure
[10:12:39] <SignpostMarv> and you have multiple download microformats with as many download links per download as you want
[10:12:51] <ddfreyne> rel-enclosure doesn't suffice to distinguish between downloads of different apps/archs/OSes though… check out http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-brainstorming — near the bottom of the page
[10:13:31] * SignpostMarv will read the appcast pages and generate a demo blurb of what he's on about
[10:13:37] <ddfreyne> alright
[10:14:05] <SignpostMarv> note to self: cayenne pepper in chilli gives it a nice colour, but makes it a little too spicy
[10:14:58] <Blueberry> okay, blip nagged too
[10:15:34] <Blueberry> I have a great generic openid nagging template now! I think i'll nag every website I can't be stuffed signing up to but think looks kinda cool
[10:15:54] <Blueberry> complaining ftw!
[10:16:20] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-c5715fbb4fe4966c) has joined #microformats
[10:16:20] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT) and works for Yahoo! in Europe
[10:16:39] <Blueberry> funky, yahoo guy!
[10:17:22] <Blueberry> of all the massive scary global information companies, I think I like yahoo most of all
[10:17:40] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: "cannot use MIME types for this, as not all different download types have their own MIME type"
[10:17:41] <SignpostMarv> ??
[10:17:47] <Blueberry> except for the search engine *hugs Clusty*
[10:18:07] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: there is AFAIK no unique MIME type for rubygems or DMGs, for example
[10:18:52] <ddfreyne> DMGs are usually served as application/octet-stream for instance
[10:19:38] * ddfreyne is starting to think the entire multi-app/arch/os appcast idea is silly
[10:19:39] <Blueberry> I always figured that was just linux servers not having the mimetype setup for them?
[10:19:54] <ddfreyne> Blueberry: no, there simply isn't a MIME type for them
[10:20:03] <Blueberry> hmm
[10:20:45] <SignpostMarv> <span class="filetype mime">application/xhtml+xml</span> or <span class="filetype descriptor"><acronym title="Extensible HyperText Markup Language">XHTML</acronym></span>
[10:21:11] <SignpostMarv> or...
[10:21:59] <SignpostMarv> <span class="filetype"><span class="descriptor"><acronym title="Extensible HyperText Markup Language">XHTML</acronym</span> <span class="mime">application/xhtml+xml</span></span>
[10:23:12] <ddfreyne> Hm, I'm in fact not sure whether the download type (say, DMG, rubygem, …) really matters
[10:23:26] <SignpostMarv> GreaseMonkey support
[10:23:51] <SignpostMarv> say the document represents a bunch of MP3s
[10:24:14] <ddfreyne> this is about appcasts though, so the document would represent a bunch of (app) enclosures
[10:24:26] <SignpostMarv> you could have a greasemonkey script that looks for mp3 audio, and loads up a flash player
[10:24:38] <ddfreyne> what I'd like, is to distinguish different kinds of downloads on the appcast page
[10:24:51] <SignpostMarv> also;
[10:25:16] <ddfreyne> different kinds can be… different arch… different OS… different application… different "format" (pro/lite/…)… etc… I think the easiest way to distinguish between all those is giving them an unique ID
[10:25:20] <SignpostMarv> greasemonkey script to put up a big-ass label that says "there is no download available for your system"
[10:25:24] <ddfreyne> and forgetting about marking up arch/os/whatever
[10:25:59] <ddfreyne> Sparkle (app update framework) would then look for items with a given ID…
[10:26:13] <ddfreyne> … which obviously means that multiple items should have the same ID, which is impossible
[10:26:23] <SignpostMarv> does the microformat make any room for "required libraries" ?
[10:26:36] <ddfreyne> dependencies? no
[10:26:42] <SignpostMarv> should it ?
[10:27:14] <ddfreyne> I don't think it should… I think this should be kept as simple as possible
[10:27:37] <SignpostMarv> when you download an application, in the description it'll say if there's any dependancies right ?
[10:28:01] <ddfreyne> this is mainly for update checks… so you'll likely already have the application and its dependencies
[10:28:15] <SignpostMarv> "likely" but not necesarily
[10:28:38] <SignpostMarv> if an updated package requires an updated dependancy....
[10:29:38] <ddfreyne> on Mac OS X, dependencies are either delivered by the system or included in the package
[10:30:05] <ddfreyne> so there's virtually no need for dependencies in appcasts
[10:30:19] <ddfreyne> Sparkle doesn't have the notion of dependencies either, and it works perfectly fine
[10:30:37] <ddfreyne> I honestly believe that dependencies are definitely not worth adding to appcasts
[10:31:04] <SignpostMarv> <ul class="dependancies"><li><a class="dependancy required minimum" href="http://example.com/foo.2.0.tar.gz">foo version 2.0</a></li><li><a class="dependancy optional minimum" href="http://example.com/bar.1.0.tar.gz">Bar version 1.0</a></li></ul>
[10:32:20] <ddfreyne> No dependencies.
[10:32:39] <ddfreyne> (Also, it's spelled "dependency" and not "dependancy")
[10:32:49] <SignpostMarv> :P
[10:33:08] <ddfreyne> I don't see what problem adding dependencies solves
[10:33:48] <SignpostMarv> "your application not working" :-P
[10:34:38] <ddfreyne> Sparkle doesn't have dependency stuff, and I've never had that problem… I've used Sparkle for a long time and for many different apps.
[10:35:22] <SignpostMarv> some applications get released and can't include the dependencies for legal reasons
[10:35:28] <ddfreyne> So, no dependencies.
[10:35:57] <SignpostMarv> you're kinda screwed if you don't indicate that the application needs dependencies or don't tell the end-user where to get them
[10:36:37] <ddfreyne> I agree dependencies would be useful if for some reason Gentoo Portage suddenly switches over its massive repository to HTML
[10:36:44] <ddfreyne> but I doubt it'd be very useful otherwise
[10:38:07] <SignpostMarv> audio players, audio encoders etc that don't include LAME. How many of those are there.....
[10:38:12] <ddfreyne> Convince me by creating a "dependencies-examples" page and filling it up for me.
[10:40:13] <ddfreyne> What you're trying to do is convert technology that does not use the web (like gentoo portage) to the web, which is silly
[10:40:50] <ddfreyne> appcasts, on the other hand, are web-related… they use RSS feeds, for example, and download pages usually have very similar information to what is contained in those RSS feeds
[10:42:11] <ddfreyne> So, for the last time… no dependencies.
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[10:52:01] <ddfreyne> … but that doesn't solve the multi-arch/app/os/kind appcast problem, though.
[10:53:05] * briansuda wonders if that is a common enough problem that needs solving? the world spins today without a solution
[10:54:10] <ddfreyne> yeah, I think it's simply not worth worrying about
[10:54:35] <ddfreyne> so, multi-whatever appcasts shouldn't be possible
[10:55:46] <ddfreyne> Makes stuff a *lot* easier, too
[10:56:11] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19224 * DenisDefreyne * (+299)
[10:56:25] <SignpostMarv> http://secondlife.com/community/downloads.php one application, 3 different OSes
[10:56:48] <SignpostMarv> http://www.pidgin.im/download/ one application, 4 different OSes
[10:57:18] <ddfreyne> that's not really an appcast page, since it doesn't contain a version history, or downloads for different versions
[10:58:57] <SignpostMarv> http://ati.amd.com/support/driver.html one application, about 14 different OSes
[10:59:42] <SignpostMarv> while the ATI page doesn't contain the versioning information or download links, the pages the form links to do
[11:00:36] <SignpostMarv> the RSS feed http://www2.ati.com/rss/catalyst.rss is pretty much release notes, although it's kind of annoying that it doesn't have the download link in the feed
[11:01:26] <SignpostMarv> multi arch/os appcast would be a suitable replacement for a lot of different pages for ATI's driver download information
[11:01:51] <ddfreyne> I don't disagree that there are quite a few download pages for multiple OSes, but I don't know a clean way to solve this issue
[11:02:28] <Blueberry> wouldn't one appcast with all arch/os combinations be a horrible waste of bandwidth?
[11:02:32] <briansuda> well, there are companies solving this issue already, how do they do it?
[11:03:00] <SignpostMarv> briansuda: they spread the information across *a lot* of pages
[11:03:22] <Blueberry> more often than not i'd have to redownload the appcast as it had changed from the cache'd version only to find none of the updates apply to my system..?
[11:03:35] <SignpostMarv> in ATI's case, it looks like about 2 pages per OS
[11:03:58] <ddfreyne> Blueberry: well, downloading a HTML page every day isn't going to kill your bandwidth ;)
[11:04:22] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: so you're saying multi-* appcasts aren't worth it?
[11:04:23] * SignpostMarv goes and puts together an example using ATI's driver archives as test data
[11:04:43] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: I'm saying not supporting it would be moronic
[11:05:45] <ddfreyne> So… suppose you're an application update framework, and you're fetching an appcast… the page has a lot of enclosures for different OSes… how do you know what enclosure to download?
[11:05:58] <briansuda> i meant companies already solving the downloading problem without a microformat, how are they doing it, manually?
[11:06:22] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:TobyInk * TobyInk * (+322)
[11:06:46] <ddfreyne> briansuda: well, for automatic updates I'd say they're using something like an RSS appcast… which is a feed with enclosures and release notes… but these feeds are limited to one OS, one arch, etc
[11:06:58] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19225 * TobyInk * (+0)
[11:07:19] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19226 * TobyInk * (-4)
[11:07:50] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19227 * TobyInk * (+0)
[11:08:41] <ddfreyne> the reason why an appcast microformat would be useful, is because there would be no need for a RSS feed anymore… but having a separate HTML page for every app/os/arch may require structural changes in the web site, which are not always possible
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[11:10:42] <ddfreyne> One way to have multi-* appcasts would be to put all hentry's with rel-enclosures in an element with id="macosx-lite-x86", and then tell the updater to look for hentry's in an id macosx-lite-x86
[11:10:51] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-nonWGS84]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-nonWGS84&diff=0&oldid=19228 * TobyInk * (+49) thare -
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[11:11:19] <ddfreyne> But even that is not always possible, because downloads might be grouped by version, and not by os/arch/whatever
[11:11:42] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-nonWGS84]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-nonWGS84&diff=0&oldid=19229 * TobyInk * (+0) thare -
[11:11:43] <SignpostMarv> http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/radeonxprevious-xp.html
[11:11:55] <SignpostMarv> downloads grouped by operating system :-P
[11:12:33] <ddfreyne> I think it'd be useful to add all these URLs to the appcast-examples page
[11:13:09] * briansuda wonders if you are documenting current behaviour or inventing new ones?
[11:14:41] <ddfreyne> documenting current behavior, although I have a tendency to stray a bit, sometimes
[11:14:56] <ddfreyne> the MySQL downloads page is probably the most annoying page I've seen
[11:14:57] <ddfreyne> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/mysql/5.0.html
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[11:15:01] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
[11:15:37] <ddfreyne> it's semi-grouped by version, OS, architecture, and "kind" (server, client, libraries, whatever)
[11:17:47] <ddfreyne> Hm, the mysql download page *could* simply use an unique ID per download, such as id="win-x64-no-installer"
[11:18:37] <ddfreyne> I'm starting to think there needs to be a distinction between release notes pages, and downloads pages
[11:19:10] <ddfreyne> RSS appcasts combine downloads and release notes, but most release notes pages don't have downloads and downloads pages don't have release notes
[11:19:54] <ddfreyne> I also think we're making this much harder than it could be :)
[11:20:43] <briansuda> hm, if apps are already using RSS with enclosers, why don't you look at how to get a downloads page marked-up in hAtom with a rel_enclosure so that existing apps can consume that?
[11:20:58] <briansuda> no need to re_invent the wheel
[11:21:02] <ddfreyne> already did that
[11:21:15] <ddfreyne> http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-brainstorming — check the Proposal section
[11:21:54] <ddfreyne> that is a proposal for a an appcast for a single app/arch/os/etc
[11:22:09] <briansuda> then i'd say focus on that instead of inventing new ideas
[11:22:38] <briansuda> it is the path of least resistance, you can itterate later, you don't even have aproduct forst
[11:22:42] <ddfreyne> well, the idea was to have multiple hfeeds on one page; one for different OSes, architectures, etc
[11:23:04] <ddfreyne> problem is… how do app update frameworks (like Sparkle) know what hfeed to look for?
[11:23:10] <SignpostMarv> yar: last 3 versions of the 32bit winxp Catalyst drivers: http://dev.signpostmarv.name/pub/microformats/appcast-ati-catalyst-winxp-x86.xhtml
[11:23:34] <ddfreyne> (I already have a hacked-together Sparkle which supports microformat appcasts)
[11:23:38] * SignpostMarv used his blog's output as a template, since it already used hAtom
[11:23:43] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: 403
[11:24:02] <SignpostMarv> damn. must've overwritten the pub .htaccess file
[11:24:54] <SignpostMarv> try now
[11:25:03] <ddfreyne> so… if an appcast can contain multiple apps/archs/os'es, then there should be a way to distinguish between them… which is what I'm trying to do
[11:25:44] <SignpostMarv> <a rel="enclosure" class="winxp x86">
[11:25:47] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: yeah, that's pretty much what I had already
[11:25:51] <ddfreyne> ah…
[11:26:03] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: well, there would be a *LOT* of classes to mark that up
[11:26:24] <SignpostMarv> have you had a look at the amount of classes in an hAtom page ?
[11:26:40] <SignpostMarv> <div id="post-92" class="hentry p3 post publish author-admin category-llsd category-second-life y2007 m05 d31 h02">
[11:26:41] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: winxp, winvista, winxp64, winvista64, winvistahome, winvistabiz, macosx103, macosx104, macosx104ub, …
[11:26:49] <SignpostMarv> ah
[11:27:02] <SignpostMarv> "winxp x86", "winxp x64"
[11:27:07] <ddfreyne> and then you could have different kinds of your app… like pro, lite, etc
[11:27:30] <SignpostMarv> that would be a different package
[11:27:33] <ddfreyne> different "editions"
[11:27:43] <ddfreyne> it sure would… you can't upgrade a Lite version to a Pro version
[11:27:43] <briansuda> how do they do it now?
[11:28:10] <SignpostMarv> take a look at the source code for the ATI example
[11:28:28] <SignpostMarv> <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Catalyst</span> <span class="version">7.6</span></h2>
[11:28:52] <ddfreyne> class="package"?
[11:29:07] <SignpostMarv> switch this to trillian and you have <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Trillian Pro</span> <span class="version">3.1</span></h2> and <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Trillian Lite</span> <span class="version">3.1</span></h2>
[11:29:56] <ddfreyne> so you're saying, simply put the kind (os/arch/whatever) in the title?
[11:30:16] <ddfreyne> (or at least in the hentry)
[11:30:17] <SignpostMarv> well it depends on how the document is laid out
[11:30:53] <SignpostMarv> if it's one feed per OS, then your architecture indicators would be on the rel-enclosure element
[11:31:07] <ddfreyne> briansuda: how it's done now… with rss appcasts: separate feeds… with html pages: well, it's not marked up at all yet
[11:31:43] <ddfreyne> By the way, is there anything that uses RSS appcasts on windows or linux/unix?
[11:31:47] <SignpostMarv> if it's one feed per OS/arch combo, then your OS & architecture indicators would go in one of the parent element of the rel-enclosure element, but a child element of the hentry element
[11:32:35] <ddfreyne> it may not be able to go directly on the rel-enclosure link if the metadata is visible… so again there'd be need for a download microformat
[11:32:57] <SignpostMarv> hrm ?
[11:33:37] <ddfreyne> <a href="blah.zip">Download</a> (MD5 sum: 0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08)
[11:33:50] <ddfreyne> Marking that up would require something more than just rel-enclosure
[11:34:40] <ddfreyne> Something like this might work:
[11:34:40] <ddfreyne> <span class="download"><a href="blah.zip" rel="enclosure">Download</a> (MD5 sum: <span class="checksum md5">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08</span>)</span>
[11:35:03] <ddfreyne> that adds 1) a "download" wrapper, 2) rel-enclosure, 3) checksums
[11:35:10] <ddfreyne> (could also add arch/os/whatever details)
[11:35:33] <briansuda> so you want a list of THINGS possibly multiple lists of THINGs on the same page, and you want to know how to only get a sub-set based on OS, ect
[11:35:36] <SignpostMarv> <div class="hentry"><div class="entry-content"><a class="entry-title" href="blah.zip" rel="enclosure">Blah</a> (MD5 sum: <span class="checksum md5">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f0</span>)</div></div>
[11:35:48] <ddfreyne> briansuda: exactly
[11:35:50] <briansuda> with HTML and lists you can use the # and pull out only 1 of the 3 lists
[11:36:03] <briansuda> then people simple SUBSCRIBE to the OS list they want
[11:36:13] <briansuda> why make the app smart, let the people choose
[11:36:19] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: putting "download" as the link text is probably about as semantic as having "click here" as link text
[11:36:30] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: it's an example
[11:37:18] <SignpostMarv> briansuda: CNET.com/s download.com site, majorgeeks.com etc could subscribe to the multi-OS/arch feed, whereas an end-user would subscribe to the feed matching their platform
[11:37:23] <ddfreyne> briansuda: I like that solution… it breaks if downloads are grouped by version instead of OS/arch/whatever though
[11:37:50] <SignpostMarv> if there isn't a single feed for a single platform, then their appcast parser only download the appropriate files
[11:37:52] <briansuda> yeah, you can do that by simply linking to the list you want and ID each list
[11:38:11] <ddfreyne> briansuda: although perhaps there's not many download pages that group downloads by version
[11:38:33] <briansuda> then this isn't a common problem
[11:38:34] <ddfreyne> that's a lot of different IDs then, though
[11:38:40] <briansuda> now
[11:38:44] <briansuda> no...
[11:38:49] <briansuda> one id for each list
[11:38:54] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: SVN browsing :-P
[11:39:04] <ddfreyne> the ID solution is a clean and very simple one
[11:39:08] <SignpostMarv> also: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=21558&package_id=15149&release_id=501534
[11:39:08] <briansuda> a list for WinXP, a list fo Vista, a list for binary
[11:39:22] <SignpostMarv> ^ a page grouping downloads by version
[11:39:29] <ddfreyne> hm.
[11:39:31] <briansuda> just like if you have a page of hCards, you can target a single one
[11:39:42] <briansuda> or a single list, which is a sub-set of the whole thing
[11:40:04] <mfbot> [[User:Alper]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Alper * Alper * (+90)
[11:40:12] <briansuda> maybe you should take some time and familiarize yourself with the dev-list archives
[11:40:15] <ddfreyne> briansuda: Ah, eh… sorry, I got lost there… could you give a small example of how a page grouped by version would be marked up?
[11:40:33] <briansuda> it helps to understand parsing before proposing a new format
[11:40:40] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: go look at how sourceforge does it
[11:41:17] <ddfreyne> Ahh, right.
[11:42:24] <ddfreyne> I'll also check out microformats-dev; I'm only on -new and -discuss right now
[11:45:28] <briansuda> i might recommend that it be a requirement before proposing a new format... people recently who have proposed formats were completely un-aware of how the parsing model works!
[11:46:02] <briansuda> the tricky thing is you can join the dev list and read it, but understanding is ultimately the important part
[11:46:04] <ddfreyne> I have some experience, but I do agree I could learn a lot
[11:46:43] <briansuda> things like the #id reference targeting would help to guide dicussions based on existing microformats trends rather than inventing new stuff
[11:47:24] <briansuda> well, it is a matter of to test that experience... understanding is required, but shouldn't limit people from contributing
[11:48:48] <briansuda> if existing apps are pulling in RSS with enclosers, then )my thought) would be get them more feeds with enclosers to consume.... we you setup a page that vends RSS for them, users can pick and choose their desired feeds to watch based on their own OS, etc
[11:49:12] <briansuda> you can do that new with Dapple (dappit) but it would be different for every site
[11:49:32] <briansuda> something like hAtom would certainly make that middle-man´s job alot easier
[11:51:28] * ddfreyne nods
[11:52:28] <ddfreyne> so I assume you think that the appcast microformat as it is now is a decent start?
[11:52:55] <ddfreyne> (not without flaws of course)
[11:53:20] <briansuda> well, i need to read it over, but i'm not sure how much it diversges from hAtom?
[11:53:38] <briansuda> or if it is just 1-2 fields + hAtom?
[11:53:57] <ddfreyne> It's basically hAtom, with a few extra information about the application version, MD5/SHA1 checksums, etc
[11:54:25] <briansuda> ok. then for my first steps, mark-up some pages with JUST hAtom and see if an app can comsume that
[11:54:56] <briansuda> because if the current apps are JUST using RSS, then how are they getting the MD5 and if they are NOT, then is it really that important?
[11:55:41] <ddfreyne> they're JUST using RSS—there's some extensions Sparkle uses… <enclosure sparkle:md5sum="…" href="…"/> — that kind of thing
[11:55:48] <briansuda> it maybe be important for alpha geeks to have a checksum, but if people are using things like Sparkle without checksums, then don't let that hold back development
[11:56:13] <briansuda> ok, so then just document those small custom attributes
[11:56:23] <briansuda> if there are some commonalities, then we work from there
[11:57:02] <ddfreyne> HTML appcasts don't need any custom attributes at all, but these custom attributes can be used to tweak the feed or add more functionality
[11:57:52] <ddfreyne> I'll start by converting a few existing RSS appcasts to hAtom; should be fairly easy
[11:58:03] <briansuda> ok, then see where the holes are
[11:58:42] <briansuda> i think a discussion about hAtom + 1-2 attributes is much better than a new format, even if it is identical to hAtom
[11:59:43] <ddfreyne> my appcast microformat idea has always been based off hAtom though… if RSS appcasts use RSS, it's be silly not to use hAtom for HTML appcasts
[11:59:46] <briansuda> optionally extending hAtom is a better choice (IMHO) that way you also get the benefits of hAtom work and any itterations with that format
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[12:00:14] <ddfreyne> indeed
[12:00:22] <briansuda> right, like i said, i haven´'t read through the appcast page, but maybe it should be billed as appcast-hatom-extention
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[12:01:01] <ddfreyne> I think chris already mentioned that on the appcast page…
[12:01:07] <ddfreyne> ah — "Lastly, this work should be seen as compatible with hAtom, possibly as a prelude to a format that could be embedded as the payload of an hfeed object."
[12:03:30] <briansuda> i'd say, instead of a format that could be embedded... to something more like, microformat properties that define additional semantics that can exist inside an hentry
[12:04:33] <briansuda> because, basically, when you create a new property name, it can be used in ANY format in the future
[12:05:05] <briansuda> so if end-up createing something like DURATION (which exisits in hCalendar) you can re-use it in a media format
[12:05:33] <briansuda> so something like checksum or md5 is NOT really specific to appcast, but becomes a semantic property that can be used else where
[12:05:56] <briansuda> you are basically creating an elementary microformat, like rel-tag
[12:06:07] <briansuda> that can be added into other format to give additional semantics
[12:06:41] <briansuda> maybe you should think of appcast extentions in this way rather than a full on format in-itself?
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[12:07:22] <ddfreyne> well, I was thinking of working on the downloads microformat (see downloads-brainstorming) while working on hatom
[12:08:09] <ddfreyne> which is basically a microformat that builds on rel-enclosure but adds checksums, for example
[12:08:27] <ddfreyne> and there's also the hash-examples pages, which is also quite useful
[12:08:40] <briansuda> um, is that the same thing then? one is just for semantics sake and the other is to be used in RSS
[12:08:40] <ddfreyne> so I'd like to reuse all that stuff as much as possible
[12:08:59] <briansuda> you don´t HAVE to think of hAtom as only an RSS output
[12:09:27] <briansuda> things like hCards dont HAVE to be vCards, they can be FoAF files, vCards, CSV, passed to other services, etc
[12:09:37] <briansuda> it isn't a 1:1 output mapping
[12:10:00] <ddfreyne> no, of course not… but rel-enclosure is simply too tiny; adding checksums to rel-enclosure requires a larger microformat
[12:10:19] <briansuda> so if you have checksum info for appcast and that is the same data for downloads, then you are creating 2 formats that map to 2 different outputs
[12:10:48] <briansuda> just use one format hAtom+appcast and map it to RSS and to your POSH markup
[12:10:50] <ddfreyne> oh, but checksums would only be used for enclosures
[12:11:16] <ddfreyne> (there's no checksum for the appcast itself, only for enclosures)
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[12:11:45] <briansuda> so, each download this app, page is just the same as a feed entry
[12:12:26] <briansuda> the purpose statement on the downloads page is EXACTLY the same as you just explain app-casting to me, except one consumes RSS, the other consumes SOMETHING and aggregates it
[12:12:36] <briansuda> why not have that SOMETHING be the same RSS?
[12:12:52] <briansuda> or any XML format they want from the mciroforatted data
[12:12:59] <briansuda> hAtom can map to multiple outputs
[12:15:03] <ddfreyne> the downloads page would indeed pretty much map to the rss appcast feed
[12:16:42] <ddfreyne> although I'm not entirely sure what you're saying
[12:17:58] <ddfreyne> I'm mapping the RSS appcast (with its sparkle extensions) to HTML pretty much directly, and that's working out quite well so far
[12:20:53] <briansuda> OK, so now that data in in HTML
[12:21:37] <briansuda> is there a need for a seperate Download format? of just use the exact same fields and let the end user send it to appcast.xml or downloadlist.xml or sitemap.xml
[12:22:00] <briansuda> you are just adding semantics, NOT mapping to a given format
[12:22:45] <briansuda> if you do things right, then if next year Apple or Windows, releases an XML format to slurp into their updater, we don´t need to do anything but map hAtom+appcast to the new XML
[12:23:30] <briansuda> microformats map to multiple outputs, even outputs that we can't think of, or haven't been invented yet
[12:24:05] <briansuda> having semantics ABOUT a file or ABOUT a song or movie can be pushed around or slurped up by any app in various formats
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[12:24:06] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
[12:24:08] <ddfreyne> ah, yea
[12:24:25] <briansuda> there isn't any difference than a download-format and hAtom+appcast extentions
[12:24:39] <briansuda> because they BOTH can map to each others outputs
[12:24:56] <briansuda> a download-format is just an hAtom with one entry
[12:25:00] <briansuda> right?
[12:25:23] <ddfreyne> it can have more than one entry, but only the most recent one will be used
[12:26:07] <ddfreyne> well, by the updater framework at least
[12:26:14] <briansuda> well, a page at (Download.com (http://download.com/), Tucows (http://tucows.com/), SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net/), etc.) has a big DOWNLOAD THIS NOW button with some metadata
[12:26:27] <briansuda> that is really just hAtom+appcast with one entry right?
[12:27:00] <ddfreyne> yes
[12:27:15] <briansuda> whereas an appcast PAGE is the same thing, but instead of "subscribing" to a single file, you are subscribing to a list which you KNOW will be updaing
[12:27:20] <briansuda> right?
[12:28:55] <ddfreyne> you'd subscribe to a single page, containing hentry's for each new release (or just one hentry, because the older hentry's will be ignored by sparkle)
[12:29:15] <briansuda> right, but that ignore is app specific, but generally yes
[12:29:23] <ddfreyne> yes
[12:30:02] <briansuda> so, i hope you can see where i am coming from, when i say that the download-format is the same thing as hatom+appcast extentions. The two are interchanable
[12:30:20] <ddfreyne> yes, they are
[12:30:23] <briansuda> you are just using the hAtom as your container element, like vcard or vevent or hresume
[12:30:44] <briansuda> i hope that can help guide some further decisions as you develop the formats
[12:30:46] <ddfreyne> althought it might look odd to be using hatom to mark up a download… might not immediately make much sense
[12:31:00] <briansuda> you can probably fold the brainstorming pages for downloads and appcats together
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[12:31:17] <ddfreyne> I was thinking about doing that, yeah
[12:31:18] <briansuda> or just finish downloads and then say how it can map to a custom RSS
[12:32:25] <briansuda> so it isn't realy "relating to appcast" it iS appcast
[12:32:31] <ddfreyne> so I also assume that means a hentry can only have one single enclosure, and that stuff like checksums will go into the hentry body itself?
[12:32:46] <ddfreyne> hm…
[12:33:27] <briansuda> that is an issue with the BIGGER Atom protocol not hAtom, so look there
[12:33:45] <briansuda> also, someone wrote: span with "md5" and "checksum" classes
[12:33:59] <briansuda> i would avoid adding MD5 and CHECKSUM as classes
[12:34:27] <briansuda> those should be human readable, so you want to emulate the same format as phone numbers and addresses, which makes this extensible
[12:34:37] <ddfreyne> I took that from the hash-examples page
[12:35:03] <briansuda> class=type>md5</span><span class=value>jehy482394hjiew...
[12:35:21] <briansuda> then someone needs to update the hash-examples page
[12:35:57] <ddfreyne> it hasn't been touched for almost a year ;)
[12:36:05] <briansuda> md5 has been cracked, so it is just a matter of time until we get md6, 7 ...123 so no need to create microformat properties for obsolete hash types
[12:36:23] <briansuda> then feel free to update it yourself ;)
[12:36:26] <ddfreyne> yeah, and there's an incredible amount of hashing algorithms anyway
[12:36:42] <ddfreyne> now seems to be the perfect time to do so
[12:36:44] <briansuda> so the TYPE/VALUE system can keep it open ended enough
[12:37:28] <briansuda> then you are just creating a single new value class="hash" or somthing and you can extend that using TYPE to any new algorithm in the future
[12:38:20] <ddfreyne> yep
[12:38:51] <briansuda> so far, that would be the only addition to hAtom, from the looks of the appcast example
[12:39:19] <briansuda> you also mention the whole OS/platform but that might better be served by letting the user subscribe to what that want
[12:39:21] <ddfreyne> well, there's still the "version" attribute
[12:39:29] <briansuda> why?
[12:39:50] <ddfreyne> the updater needs to figure out what hentry's correspond with what application versions
[12:39:55] <briansuda> i get a new item in my AppCast reader, i read the title... iTunes 7.3.2.1.23.5.6.7
[12:40:11] <briansuda> the hash is unique
[12:40:51] <briansuda> the reader knows what you have looked at, and/or downloaded already
[12:41:21] <ddfreyne> well, Sparkle (or any updater framework) needs to extract the versions so it can be compared to the current version of the app
[12:41:42] <briansuda> it doen´t HAVE to
[12:41:52] <briansuda> tit can and will list version you already have
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[12:42:17] <briansuda> it is nice, but how does appcast know what version you have currently anyway?
[12:43:05] <ddfreyne> Mac apps have a version number, which is extracted from the application by sparkle… and all versions are extracted from the appcast as well… and then the current app version is compared to the versions in the appcast
[12:43:28] <mfbot> [[hcard-de]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-de * -stk * (+302)
[12:43:49] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19230 * Alper * (+566) Issues - added richer profiles
[12:43:55] <briansuda> what about windows?
[12:44:20] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19231 * Alper * (-4) Issues -
[12:44:37] <ddfreyne> I assume windows apps all have a version number as well… one that can be accessed programmatically
[12:44:39] <briansuda> well, version already exisits as a microformat property
[12:44:41] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/classes
[12:44:55] <briansuda> so you are really only looking at HASH
[12:46:26] <ddfreyne> specifying the version number in a hatom feed with appcast extensions is not necessary for sparkle… sparkle will try to interpret the enclosure filename as APPNAME_VERSION.EXT and extract version that way, if possible
[12:46:55] <ddfreyne> that's rather sparkle-specific, perhaps
[12:47:13] <briansuda> versions aren´t always inorder or numeric either
[12:48:48] <ddfreyne> I think comparing version numbers lexicographically usually works
[12:49:39] <briansuda> ok, i hope that gives you something to chew on when re-working some of the wiki pages. i encourage you to do so
[12:49:49] <ddfreyne> and if an app uses a really strange version numbering scheme… then sparkle could still check whether there's any hentry's newer than the one matching the current version
[12:50:16] <briansuda> yup, the hAtom updates/published date gives you order
[12:50:17] <ddfreyne> but that's not really specific to appcasts anymore
[12:50:46] <briansuda> i need to grab some lunch i´ll be back later, email me or the list, or dump some ideas on the wiki
[12:50:51] <ddfreyne> alright, I'm going to get some lunch
[12:51:07] <ddfreyne> thanks for the discussion
[12:51:20] <ddfreyne> I'll be updating the wiki (hash, downloads, appcast pages)
[12:51:24] <briansuda> not a problem, over IRC it is faster and easier than the list
[12:51:35] <briansuda> thanks for the wiki updates, you know your material best
[12:51:41] <ddfreyne> seeya, enjoy your meal
[12:51:48] <briansuda> you should also ping chris, he has been working on this too
[12:51:57] <ddfreyne> will do
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[13:09:55] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT) and works for Yahoo! in Europe
[13:11:57] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19232 * DenisDefreyne * (+495) Adding Issues subsection to Proposal section
[13:21:33] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19233 * -stk * (+107)
[13:42:05] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19234 * DenisDefreyne * (+502) Adding proposal #2
[13:42:42] <ddfreyne> Looks like hash-examples could be split up in hash-brainstorming, etc
[13:47:46] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19235 * DenisDefreyne * (-795) Changed checksum to use type/value; changing entry-version to version; removing downloads microformat in proposal; cleanup
[13:50:27] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19236 * DenisDefreyne * (+7) formatting cleanup
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[13:55:09] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19237 * DenisDefreyne * (+85)
[13:57:10] <mfbot> [[hash-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-brainstorming * DenisDefreyne * (+2935) Moving non-example stuff from hash-examples to hash-brainstorming
[13:57:16] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19238 * DenisDefreyne * (-2898) Moving non-example stuff from hash-examples to hash-brainstorming
[13:57:57] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19239 * DenisDefreyne * (+99) Re-adding missing participants
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[14:09:35] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
[14:10:23] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
[14:10:23] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
[14:12:20] <dglazkov> hi mkaply
[14:12:49] <mkaply> dglazkov: hey
[14:13:16] <dglazkov> how's ff3 mf ui coming?
[14:13:59] <ddfreyne> I thought that meant final fantasy 3, for a split second.
[14:15:06] <mkaply> dglazkov: I think we've decided on a sidebar type ui
[14:15:29] <mkaply> I'm going to get Operator 0.8 done today or Monday and then work on the new UI
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[14:24:21] <dglazkov> any info I could peruse on exposed extensibility API?
[14:26:51] <dglazkov> I am quite fond of the idea which extends on the "Sub-page history" concept, described by Alex
[14:28:26] <dglazkov> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-of-microformat-detection/
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[14:39:13] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[15:00:10] <mkaply> dglazkov: So at this point there is going to be a full microformats backend API
[15:00:19] <mkaply> So any extension can access microformats "easily"
[15:00:24] <dglazkov> nice
[15:00:32] <dglazkov> any wikified info anywhere to read up on?
[15:00:34] <mkaply> So anyone could write UI as described in that post
[15:01:07] <mkaply> http://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mkaply:Fx-Docs:Microformats/Architecture
[15:01:12] <mkaply> This is pretty current
[15:03:08] <dglazkov> this looks good
[15:03:21] * dglazkov bookmarks
[15:03:51] <mkaply> The main things I'm still finaling is how certain types of data is stored in the JS object (like Html vs text, etc.)
[15:04:37] <dglazkov> in this context, XOXO support becomes useful
[15:04:51] * dglazkov is a XOXO nut, beware
[15:05:33] <dglazkov> I can now glean a configuration/settings from a page using API
[15:05:38] * mkaply never really understood XOXO - couldn't figure out a way to put it in Operator from a UI perspective
[15:06:05] <dglazkov> alright, hang on...
[15:06:49] <dglazkov> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/181191
[15:07:02] <dglazkov> this is one of the ways I use XOXO
[15:07:22] <dglazkov> as configuration/settings storage method for structured data
[15:07:30] <mkaply> ah
[15:07:46] <dglazkov> this particular bit is a mapping for reading Atom into Estrada Engine (my bab)
[15:07:52] <dglazkov> er, baby
[15:08:32] <dglazkov> I was kidding one time, proposing to write a "How to represent XML in XOXO" article for XML.com on April 1
[15:08:38] <dglazkov> but I wasn't really kidding :)
[15:08:58] <dglazkov> are a you a Mac/Cocoa user?
[15:09:22] <iand> dglazkov: i've been working on representing rdf in xoxo ( http://n2.talis.com/wiki/RDF_JSON_Brainstorming#RDF_in_XOXO )
[15:09:33] <dglazkov> well, there you go :)
[15:10:42] <iand> and we're using it in a live system too
[15:11:06] <iand> see http://api.talis.com/stores (it's unstyled)
[15:11:07] <dglazkov> xoxo, to me, is very appealing for storing structured data, for example configuration
[15:11:24] <iand> and http://api.talis.com/stores?output=xml for rdf/xml equivilent
[15:11:43] <dglazkov> and believe it or not, it feels more "natural" than XML to store Web data
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[15:12:13] <dglazkov> iand, nice
[15:12:34] <iand> JSON too - but not public yet
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[15:14:03] <dglazkov> .. back to FF3 context
[15:14:57] <dglazkov> with XOXO parser at hand, now a Firefox extension, for instance, can read configuration/settings from an HTML page.
[15:15:04] <dglazkov> makes sense?
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[15:17:49] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
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[15:20:31] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[15:26:39] <mkaply> dglazkov: yep. makes sense
[15:26:43] * mkaply needs briansuda
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[15:37:52] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19240 * ClayNewton * (-3073)
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[15:47:53] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19241 * ClayNewton * (+25)
[15:48:04] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/trade-examples * ClayNewton * (+1062)
[15:48:55] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19242 * ClayNewton * (-25) DDA/SDA Accounts -
[15:53:06] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19243 * ClayNewton * (+207) added Keep the Change
[15:53:57] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19244 * ClayNewton * (+8)
[15:57:13] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19245 * ClayNewton * (+227)
[15:59:14] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19246 * ClayNewton * (+291)
[15:59:36] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19247 * ManuSporny * (+59) Petition -
[16:00:57] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19248 * ManuSporny * (+32) Preamble -
[16:04:04] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/trade-brainstorming * ClayNewton * (+3093)
[16:06:45] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19249 * ClayNewton * (+63)
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[16:15:26] <taaz> mkaply: hey. I'm now trying to torture Operator with the RDFa version of hAudio. It actually partly works too.
[16:15:52] <mkaply> taaz: Cool. RDFa probably wasn't tested enough because there wasn't enough out there
[16:15:57] <taaz> combining uf + rdfa should be amusing.
[16:16:32] <taaz> mkaply: i guessed that. i think it might be a moving target spec too.
[16:18:08] <taaz> is there an rdfa channel to chat about these issues or will people here not mind too much? :)
[16:20:31] <mkaply> I usually just ask ben adida my rdfa questions - or are these for me?
[16:20:43] <mkaply> taaz: /join #rdfa :)
[16:21:41] <mfbot> [[rest/description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/description&diff=0&oldid=19250 * DrErnie * (+200) Proposals/Examples -
[16:23:07] <mfbot> [[rest/description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/description&diff=0&oldid=19251 * DrErnie * (+65) Proposals/Examples -
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[16:42:18] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[17:38:11] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19252 * ClayNewton * (+3933) First update that actually conforms to examples example.
[17:38:57] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19253 * ClayNewton * (-15) How people trade today -
[17:39:54] * ddfreyne wonders whether chris still sometimes visits this channel
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[17:46:38] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
[17:49:29] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19254 * ClayNewton * (+1654) Deposit Accounts -
[17:51:10] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19255 * ClayNewton * (-2) Deposit Accounts -
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[17:53:11] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19256 * ClayNewton * (+59) Deposit Accounts -
[17:54:37] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19257 * ClayNewton * (+40) Wells Fargo -
[17:54:48] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19258 * ClayNewton * (+1) Wells Fargo -
[17:55:14] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19259 * ClayNewton * (+36) Citibank -
[17:55:35] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19260 * ClayNewton * (+43) ING -
[17:55:56] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19261 * ClayNewton * (+36) Amazon.com -
[17:56:17] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19262 * ClayNewton * (+28) eBay -
[17:56:38] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19263 * ClayNewton * (+32) Paypal -
[17:59:17] <mkaply> briansuda - just the guy I wanted to see
[17:59:27] <briansuda> how can i help?
[18:00:38] <mkaply> briansuda: So I'm trying to finalize how to access HTML for vevent description vcard/note but still be in the spec
[18:00:53] <mkaply> here's what I came up with. In Javascript, if you geto hcard.description, you'll get a string
[18:01:08] <mkaply> but you'll be able to go hcard.description.toHTML or as HTML or something like that
[18:01:10] <mkaply> and you'll get the HTML
[18:01:22] * briansuda doesn"t think it is part of the manidtory spec, but just an idea...
[18:01:29] <mkaply> the only downside is stirng functions won't work on the .description
[18:01:37] <briansuda> ok, i follow you so far
[18:01:40] <mkaply> but I hacked at least match and replace to work
[18:01:54] <mkaply> the problem is that the test suite really is looking for text
[18:02:05] <mkaply> but a lot of services (yahoo, google) take the HTML and do much better with it
[18:02:32] <briansuda> which test suit?
[18:02:33] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-068-209-082-227.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Success)
[18:02:57] <mkaply> hg.microformats.org - I realize they are testing conversion to ics specifically
[18:03:05] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19264 * ClayNewton * (+453) Quicken -
[18:03:15] <mkaply> but it's silly for me to write a testcase that makes sure all the HTML is there I think
[18:03:33] <mkaply> I think practically most people will want the text.
[18:03:36] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19265 * ClayNewton * (-17) Deposits Accounts -
[18:03:37] <mkaply> Wanting the HTML is an edgecase
[18:03:45] <briansuda> right
[18:04:01] <briansuda> i think even the styleized text is a BONUS not a requirement
[18:04:18] <mkaply> yeah. I'll be able to do that in Firefox 3. But I'm not going to write a text serializer
[18:04:20] * briansuda remembers his implementation fails on a few examples at the moment
[18:04:49] <mkaply> Cool part is I now have all the tests coded up so I can run a full unit test against my code. Makes life much easier
[18:04:56] <briansuda> ok, so what is the over all question then?
[18:05:03] <briansuda> yeah, automated testing is a good thing
[18:05:52] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19266 * ClayNewton * (-518)
[18:06:18] <mkaply> basically, does that sound like a good solution? vs. trying to do nice text parsing?
[18:06:35] <mkaply> Because this is going in FF3, I want to make sure I do the right thing(TM)
[18:06:43] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19267 * ClayNewton * (+52)
[18:06:55] <briansuda> hm....
[18:07:00] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19268 * ClayNewton * (+2) See Also -
[18:07:41] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19269 * ClayNewton * (+9)
[18:07:50] <briansuda> well. how many people are hooking into that code? the .description and .description.toHTML
[18:07:56] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[18:07:58] <briansuda> it is just you right?
[18:08:31] <mkaply> eventually any extension writer who wants to access microformats.
[18:09:21] <briansuda> but is .description specific to hcard, or is it now overridden so you can't do .description.toString()
[18:09:27] <tantek> mkaply, do you mean hcard.note rather than hcard.description ?
[18:09:35] <mkaply> tantek: sorry, yes.
[18:09:41] <mkaply> dscription is for hcalendar
[18:09:52] <tantek> just trying to be precise when it comes to programming things / DOMs / APIs
[18:10:41] <mkaply> those are the only two things I consider people needs HTML in. hcard.note, hcalendar.description (there will be an hresume one as well I think)
[18:10:52] <tantek> hreview.description
[18:11:07] <mkaply> briansuda toString() should still work on it. to return a real string
[18:11:18] <tantek> hatom.entrycontent
[18:11:26] <tantek> are others we should consider in that way
[18:11:51] <briansuda> well, ultimately i guess it depends on your output format
[18:11:58] <tantek> right
[18:12:06] <briansuda> for vCard, that can't handle HTML... but XYZ might
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[18:12:59] <briansuda> having a .toHTML() seems like a good solution, but i have never written a Operater user-script, but as an option for other developers it seems a good solution
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[18:17:13] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19270 * ClayNewton * (+33)
[18:18:59] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19271 * ClayNewton * (+11) Current -
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[18:20:39] <mkaply> briansuda: Other question was around these URLS
[18:20:45] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-feedback&diff=0&oldid=19272 * TaylorCowan * (+278) General Comments -
[18:20:55] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/tests/hcard/21-tel.html
[18:21:06] <mkaply> the cfax:+1.415.555.1238
[18:21:14] <mkaply> modem:+1.415.555.1241
[18:21:26] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-feedback&diff=0&oldid=19273 * TaylorCowan * (+7) General Comments -
[18:21:43] <mkaply> you seem to handle them a little bit, but you don't get type from the fax: or modem:
[18:21:43] <briansuda> yes, about them?
[18:21:56] <mkaply> Is there actually a spec for those types of URLs/phone numbers?
[18:22:05] <briansuda> no at the moment i don't
[18:22:23] <briansuda> yes, there are RFCs for those protocols... i think we added it to the wiki somewhere, let me look
[18:22:41] <briansuda> ryanking and i talked about those, and possibly backing them out of the tests
[18:23:18] <briansuda> currently they are NOT requirements for parsers (we haven't disucssed it enough yet) so it is abit bad to have tests of things we make people pass without agreeing they are important enough
[18:23:43] <mkaply> ok. I mentioned to ryan that the tests kind of confuse me.
[18:23:51] <mkaply> Looking at the hcalendar tests for instance. Technically over half are "invalid"
[18:23:58] <mkaply> because they are missing dtstart or summary.
[18:24:11] <mkaply> So I'm trying to figure out if vevent REQUIRES dtstart is really true?
[18:24:52] <mkaply> or like the uid test cases for vevent only have uids in the vevent
[18:25:16] <briansuda> what VEVENT requires by the spec and practically are two different things
[18:25:25] <briansuda> by the RFC, NOTHING is required
[18:25:26] <mkaply> http://hg.microformats.org/tests?f=2e38d89422dc;file=hcalendar/18-component-vevent-uid.html;style=gitweb
[18:25:36] <briansuda> practically, things don't import data without a dtstart
[18:26:02] <briansuda> yeah, the hcalendar tests lag behind the hcard ones pretty far
[18:26:48] <mkaply> I'm thinking practically, if someone wants to try to create a hcal without a dtstart, that's ok - if the dom node hsa the vevent class, I'll give them an object. It just wont have object.dtstart
[18:26:53] <mkaply> certainly makes the testing easier :)
[18:27:42] <briansuda> yeah... but you can't create any actions based on it...
[18:27:58] <briansuda> then you get plenty of complains about "my event won't import"
[18:28:11] <briansuda> OK, here's the RFC about TEL protocol http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2806.txt
[18:28:29] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Using_RFC2806_with_hCard
[18:28:56] <briansuda> the fancy new iPhone supports the TEL protocol
[18:29:04] <mkaply> briansuda: i remember, one more question. so the vcard spec doesn't require a TYPE, correct?
[18:29:11] <briansuda> infact they write what they think are phone numbers and make them TEL:
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[18:29:17] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
[18:29:25] <briansuda> type for what? TEL or URL
[18:29:45] <mkaply> TEL
[18:29:53] <mkaply> but if you don't put in a type, outlook ignors it
[18:30:03] <briansuda> i belive that is the case yes...
[18:30:41] <briansuda> according to this, Outlook DOES drop it without a TYPE, http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL
[18:31:25] <briansuda> the vCard RFC has:
[18:31:26] <briansuda> The type can include the type parameter "TYPE" to specify intended
[18:31:26] <briansuda> use for the telephone number.
[18:31:27] <mkaply> I guess what I have trouble with is "export to standard VCARD" vs. "export that works in the main mail app"
[18:31:35] <briansuda> the CAN include makes me read it as optional
[18:31:46] <briansuda> :)
[18:31:54] <briansuda> i think TYPE of VOICE can be the default
[18:32:11] <briansuda> so you CAN add a default type, i'm not sure if Outlook actually does anything with that
[18:32:15] <mkaply> even "should" would be better than "can"
[18:32:26] <tantek> TYPE for tel is "work" per the spec(s)
[18:32:27] <briansuda> or MAY
[18:32:31] <tantek> by default
[18:32:37] <tantek> IIRC
[18:32:45] <mkaply> I figured it should onlt be work if fn = org
[18:32:58] <briansuda> accoring to RFC: The
[18:32:58] <briansuda> default type is "voice".
[18:34:23] <tantek> right. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
[18:34:29] <ddfreyne> Oh, sweet, libxml2 parses HTML as well… very nice
[18:34:32] <tantek> so not "can be" but "is"
[18:34:44] <ddfreyne> (and it parses it as HTML, not XHTML, of course)
[18:35:01] <mkaply> ok. I'll make VOICE the default to satisfy the outlook users.
[18:35:23] <briansuda> well, can you mock-up a test, i have outlook and i can verify that VOICE works?
[18:35:41] <briansuda> they might require TYPE, but also TYPE = HOME/WORK?
[18:38:56] <mkaply> not quickly
[18:39:09] <tantek> mkaply, when you say "satisfy the outlook users" could you be more specific?
[18:40:00] <mkaply> tantek: I get bugs from folks saying "this phone number didn't import" https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389589
[18:40:18] <tantek> i.e. if u r working around a bug in outlook (e.g. non-compliance with RFC2426), please document it here: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook
[18:40:25] <mkaply> There are so many issues with Outlook vcards, I've considered having "standard export" and "outlook export"
[18:40:30] <tantek> ah ok: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL
[18:40:56] <mkaply> Palm desktop is lovely. I documented it there. Having a NAME: in the card fails the import
[18:40:58] <tantek> and be sure to document which *version* of Outlook
[18:41:15] <mkaply> It's pretty sad how many people screwed up implmenting the vcard spec
[18:42:16] <tantek> on both the publishing and consuming side
[18:42:20] <briansuda> well, in actuality Nokia is the only one that is strict about line-endings (per the spec), everyone else is liberal in what they accept.
[18:42:26] <tantek> mkaply, it's a good reason to just use hCards instead, they're easier to read/write than vCards
[18:42:33] <briansuda> well, not liberal enough in some cases
[18:42:56] <mkaply> briansuda: the line endings one is funny. I went ahead and changed that so bluetooth with operator would work
[18:43:08] <mfbot> [[vcard-errata]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata&diff=0&oldid=19274 * Tantek * (+27) add [[vcard-implementations]] link
[18:43:09] <mkaply> Of course everyone still uses Tails to demo it. I'm hurt :)
[18:43:23] <briansuda> i think i also fixed it in the XSLT
[18:43:29] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=19275 * Tantek * (+28)
[18:44:07] <tantek> mkaply, is that because of the bluetooth support in Tails vs. Operator? or does Operator have the bluetooth support now too?
[18:44:48] <mkaply> I have a user script that adds the same bluetooth to Operator that Tails has
[18:46:39] <briansuda> but only on the mac right?
[18:47:26] <mkaply> yeah. There's no way to invoke the bluetooth transfer programmatically on Windows.
[18:47:50] <mkaply> well, you can invoke it, but you can't pass it a filename
[18:48:03] * briansuda doesn't envy windows users
[18:48:40] <mkaply> I really wanted to do Windows bluetooth support :)
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[18:50:09] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
[18:50:45] <briansuda> ok, so did we sort out your questions? to some extent?
[18:51:48] <mkaply> briansuda: I think so.
[18:51:55] <mkaply> briansuda: Always helpful as usual
[18:52:19] * briansuda tries, but sometimes creates more questions than answers... needs a score card
[18:53:38] <mkaply> briansuda: What worries me the most in this scenario (and I'm sure you guys have thought of this)
[18:53:54] <mkaply> is that when this code goes in Firefox, it's how a lot of people are going to see microformats in the UI
[18:53:58] * ianloic (n=ian@71.5.56.162.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[18:54:02] <mkaply> So I want to make sure I get it "right" for users and extension developers
[18:54:14] <briansuda> well, so far Operator has been doing well.
[18:54:23] * ianloic (n=ian@71.5.56.162.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
[18:54:32] <briansuda> honestly i was REALLY concerned at the start to have microformats baked into the browser
[18:54:54] <briansuda> if IE has it baked in, and gets something WRONG, then everyone codes to the browser, NOT the spec
[18:55:15] <mkaply> yeah. That's why I've been working so hard to make sure I get it right :)
[18:55:21] <briansuda> Operator has been ticking along pretty well, so i'm not worried there
[18:55:30] <mkaply> At this point, the parsing engine going in Firefox is literally the exact same code as Operator. (same file even)
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[18:55:41] <briansuda> plus, firefox has a pretty good update system... almost too often
[18:55:49] <mkaply> yeah.
[18:55:57] <briansuda> so if there is a hicup it can get corrected
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[18:56:07] <mkaply> Oh, I remember one more question
[18:56:08] <briansuda> IE doesn't have quite the same track record
[18:56:10] <mkaply> The value design patter
[18:56:35] <mkaply> <span class="value"><b>foo</b></span><span class="value"><b>bar</b></span>
[18:56:54] <mkaply> Do I grab the EXACT content of the value? Including the HTML? Or are values textContent as well?
[18:57:11] <mkaply> I know that's a real edge case because if someone cared about value, they would only specify the exact stuff they wanted in the value
[18:57:19] <briansuda> well, i guess it depends on the output...
[18:57:31] <briansuda> in vCard FN you'd only grab the strings, not the mark-up
[18:57:45] <briansuda> in something like NOTES or others, i'd say the mark-up
[18:58:00] <briansuda> otherwise they could have put the class inside or on the <b>
[18:58:10] <briansuda> but they chose to wrap it explicitly
[18:58:26] <briansuda> also, remember NOT to add spaces between class="value"
[18:58:46] <briansuda> that would actually BREAK the drop-cap image test we made a few weeks ago
[18:58:59] <mkaply> yeah, i don't add spaces.
[19:05:17] <tantek> text content
[19:05:26] <tantek> mkaply, these are really good questions you are asking
[19:06:46] <tantek> could I ask you to go ahead and add them to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues ?
[19:06:57] <tantek> don't worry if you are being redundant, I'll handle redundancies
[19:07:10] <tantek> just capture them so I can make sure to put clarifications in the spec or FAQ
[19:07:43] <tantek> e.g. re: using class="value", Do I grab the EXACT content of the value? Including the HTML? Or are values textContent as well?
[19:08:06] <tantek> otherwise we end up with the clarifications stuck in IRC logs where others might not find them
[19:08:26] <tantek> I want to make sure that the q&a are documented for implementers in general so we get better interop.
[19:08:36] <tantek> thanks.
[19:10:29] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-63423786be7ae8db) Quit ("Fades out again…")
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[19:12:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=19276 * MikeKaply * (+304) Issues -
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[19:21:55] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
[19:27:18] <mkaply> argh. eventful's microfomrats went backwards
[19:27:44] <briansuda> do we have a contact over there?
[19:28:43] <mkaply> I have one
[19:29:52] <briansuda> ok.
[19:30:05] <briansuda> did meetup.com ever get sorted out?
[19:30:39] <briansuda> are they gearing up for the elections? or has the bubble passed them
[19:31:53] <ianloic> *cough* validator *cough*
[19:32:58] <briansuda> 28 errors!
[19:33:35] <mkaply> what's weird is that their locations are OK, just not embedded in their vevents anymore
[19:33:53] <mkaply> probably trying to make live clipboard work. What a waste
[19:34:16] <briansuda> :)
[19:34:29] <mkaply> Bastards That's exactly what they did
[19:34:29] <briansuda> drop them an email
[19:34:43] <mkaply> I did. The only vevent on their page is the dynamic live clipboard one which is half hearted
[19:35:07] * mkaply takes eventful off his testing list
[19:35:44] <briansuda> what about pownce events?
[19:36:21] <mkaply> got a link?
[19:36:26] * mkaply doesn't have a pownce account
[19:37:02] <briansuda> http://pownce.com/everyone/
[19:37:11] <briansuda> i need to find a specific event
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[19:37:30] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
[19:38:57] <briansuda> http://pownce.com/archer7/notes/406139/
[19:39:28] <briansuda> looks good in visual inspection, just no TZ
[19:39:46] <briansuda> so i have no idea 8am where/when?
[19:40:18] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19277 * ClayNewton * (+3) Why do we need a trade microformat? -
[19:40:29] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19278 * ClayNewton * (-2) Example:' -
[19:40:52] <mkaply> 8am? what do you mean
[19:41:03] <mkaply> 20070818T80000
[19:41:09] <mkaply> doh!
[19:41:38] <mkaply> Weird. Yahoo took it as 8 AM
[19:41:47] <mkaply> so did google
[19:42:01] <mkaply> I'm impressed
[19:42:13] <briansuda> yes, but 8am what timezone? certainly not 8am for me?
[19:42:26] * Jvhun (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
[19:42:33] * briansuda remembers all that UTC 'Z' TZ stuff - not fun
[19:42:47] <briansuda> without a Z it is not bound to any TZ
[19:42:58] <briansuda> it either needs a Z so it is offset from UTC
[19:43:06] <briansuda> or an offset -0800
[19:43:21] <briansuda> or without anything, then (i think) it happens at 8am in every timezone?
[19:43:55] <briansuda> like christmas, 20071225T000000 without Z or an offset it happens at that time in each TZ repectively
[19:44:02] <briansuda> (which i guess isn't too bad)
[19:44:14] <briansuda> pownce launched full of MFs
[19:44:22] <briansuda> so you can add them on your test list
[19:45:18] <mkaply> That's not valid though
[19:45:19] <mkaply> 0070818T80000
[19:45:23] <mkaply> ISO spec says
[19:45:26] <mkaply> 0070818T080000
[19:45:33] <mkaply> You have to have two digits for everything, right?
[19:45:39] <mkaply> I'm normalizing that to 800000
[19:46:16] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19279 * ClayNewton * (-4) See Also -
[19:47:13] <mkaply> Does pownce have a form you fill out that created that invalid code?
[19:47:27] <briansuda> ah, good catch, yes you do!
[19:47:53] <mkaply> I can't really fix that. Unless someone can improve my regex
[19:48:01] <briansuda> no, it is probably an output with the datemask, YYYY-MM-DD, H:i:s for 24 time, leading zero
[19:48:03] <mkaply> var dateArray = string.match(/(\d\d\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:[T ](\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?:\.(\d+))?)?)?(?:([-+Z])(?:(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d))?)?)?)?)?)?/);
[19:48:09] <briansuda> they probably just missed the leading zero!
[19:48:12] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19280 * ClayNewton * (+5) See Also -
[19:48:29] <briansuda> ah, great, drop a regex in here and we'll see how many leave screaming
[19:48:39] <mkaply> that one makes me scream
[19:48:47] <briansuda> trying doing it in XSLT!
[19:48:51] <mkaply> takes an ISO date and parses it into pieces
[19:49:13] <briansuda> i guess there is no 80 o'clock
[19:49:38] <briansuda> but 10000 becomes an issue, is that missing a leading zero, or a trailing zero for seconds?
[19:50:11] <briansuda> there is a BUGs email address
[19:50:22] <briansuda> bugs@pownce.com
[19:50:55] <briansuda> do you want to contact them, or me? or maybe tantek or ryanking can see someone online who works for them right now
[19:51:04] <briansuda> kingryan that is...
[19:53:14] <briansuda> also, some oxford folks contacted me about a hiccup in X2V for hcalendar. they are using TZID which no one else does, so my code was not complete
[19:53:22] <briansuda> you might want to check it also, http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/oxitems/
[19:54:19] <mkaply> do we know anyone at pownce
[19:55:34] <mkaply> is there a use case?
[19:55:59] <mkaply> sorry, a live example
[19:56:46] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@85.254.221.107) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[19:57:14] <briansuda> i do believe tantek and kingryan know one of the developers at Pownce i forget her name.
[19:57:55] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) has joined #microformats
[19:57:55] <jibot> WilleRaab is a developer of and lecturer on democracy methods and tools http://microformats.org/wiki/User:WilleRaab
[19:58:10] <briansuda> it is listed at the first example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild
[19:58:36] <briansuda> they sent me flat files to test with. the live ones are inside an RSS feed :) go Operate on that!
[19:58:38] * tantek tries to catch up
[19:59:48] <briansuda> we can file a bug about the pownce issue, or maybe someone is online that could be poked and fix it quicker?
[20:00:07] <mkaply> ted is not at eventful.com
[20:00:08] <tantek> note that lack of TZ is *ok*
[20:00:15] <tantek> it means a "floating" time
[20:00:16] <mkaply> I can operator on RSS feeds. Hah
[20:00:23] <tantek> like "wake up at 8am" -
[20:00:25] <mkaply> tantek: the problem is the missing leading 0
[20:00:29] <tantek> is at 8am in all timezones
[20:00:30] <tantek> oh ok
[20:00:51] <tantek> note the problem under their entry in hcalendar-examples-in-wild
[20:00:52] <mkaply> So I have no eventful.com contact anymore
[20:01:10] <briansuda> ah, ted hober?
[20:01:31] <briansuda> maybe just email him and ask him to get you incontact with his replacement
[20:02:14] <mkaply> It was edward o'connor actually.
[20:02:18] <mkaply> only contact I have
[20:02:33] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19281 * ClayNewton * (+34) Property List -
[20:04:33] <briansuda> maybe the ted i am thinking of works somewhere else?
[20:04:59] <briansuda> nope, same person
[20:05:06] <briansuda> http://twitter.com/hober
[20:07:05] <mkaply> left eventful in may
[20:08:27] <briansuda> that wasn't very curtious of him :)
[20:08:40] <mkaply> At least he keeps his resume current so I can tell
[20:08:47] <briansuda> doesn't he know we need to test that site!
[20:09:11] <briansuda> maybe it wasn't a good ending and the Resume was updated out of spite?
[20:10:31] <mkaply> perhaps. But I'll give him props for using hresume. And profile URLs even!
[20:11:37] <briansuda> :)
[20:11:53] <briansuda> does it say where he is now? linkedin?
[20:12:16] <mkaply> Nope. Argh. He did his includes invalid and I don't detect them properly
[20:12:29] <mkaply> you're not supposed to put the class you are including, right?
[20:12:43] <mkaply> <object class="include fn n" data="#me"></object>
[20:12:45] <mkaply> should be
[20:12:49] <mkaply> <object class="include" data="#me"></object>
[20:12:51] <briansuda> ah... i would say nope
[20:12:59] <briansuda> i think the wiki has both
[20:13:11] <briansuda> there was a big discussion about this, but nothing was decided
[20:13:12] <mkaply> the problem is there's no good way to detect that there was no fn in the original node
[20:13:36] <mkaply> because the class is there.
[20:13:51] <briansuda> exactly, my reconning is that the OBJECT gets 'replaced' by what it reference, in his case it is assuming it is added as a child
[20:14:17] <mkaply> yep.
[20:14:26] <briansuda> it is like arguing "is NULL something, no it is NULL, but NULL is something, nothing"
[20:14:34] <mkaply> I'll email him on that as well
[20:14:38] <briansuda> cheers
[20:25:07] <tantek> mkaply: please add to http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-issues
[20:29:40] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=19282 * MikeKaply * (+312) Include-Pattern Issues -
[20:38:37] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=19283 * Tantek * (+42) a few details
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[21:05:54] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
[21:15:49] <mfbot> [[genealogy-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-formats&diff=0&oldid=19284 * Bob Jonkman * (-14) GEDCOM _IS_ a format for genealogical data.
[21:41:11] <mfbot> [[bookmarklets]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=bookmarklets&diff=0&oldid=19285 * Brian * (+86) added GEO bookmarklet
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[22:12:04] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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[23:50:02] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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