IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:45] * leahculver (n=leahculv@dsl027-178-185.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  20. [04:28:02] <SignpostMarv> something just occured to me
  21. [04:28:07] <SignpostMarv> hAudio + XOXO = playlist
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  23. [04:48:53] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  24. [04:57:23] <mfbot> [[User:ClayNewton]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:ClayNewton * ClayNewton * (+73)
  25. [05:05:06] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  26. [05:05:06] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  27. [05:11:40] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19195 * ClayNewton * (+163)
  28. [05:12:26] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=19196 * ClayNewton * (+4)
  29. [05:24:22] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hTrade * ClayNewton * (+923)
  30. [05:31:59] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19197 * ClayNewton * (+217)
  31. [05:39:25] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  32. [05:51:15] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19198 * ClayNewton * (+1858)
  33. [05:52:06] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19199 * ClayNewton * (+101)
  34. [05:52:22] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  35. [05:52:22] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
  36. [05:52:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19200 * ClayNewton * (+1) Property List -
  37. [05:53:29] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19201 * ClayNewton * (-1) Property List -
  38. [05:54:59] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19202 * ClayNewton * (+0) Property List -
  39. [05:55:25] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19203 * ClayNewton * (-1) Copyright -
  40. [05:59:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19204 * ClayNewton * (+114)
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  43. [06:01:44] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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  49. [06:57:57] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  53. [07:19:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  54. [07:19:35] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, a web developer for Yahoo! and curator of tools.microformatic.com
  55. [07:21:51] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  59. [07:39:54] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  60. [07:39:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  61. [07:45:51] * csarven- (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
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  63. [07:54:27] * fedoroag (n=fedoroag@gepbbel.ru) Quit ("Ухожу")
  64. [07:54:42] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19205 * Tantek * (+374) creation of a draft or even naming a proposed microformat for trade is premature per the [[process]]
  65. [08:01:43] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  66. [08:01:43] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  67. [08:16:59] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19206 * Robert * (+334) Discussion and suggestions -
  68. [08:18:45] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19207 * Tantek * (+817) rephrased assertion about OpenID as FAQ question, and answered: It is URL (by way of DNS) that creates a globally unique identifier, not OpenID.
  69. [08:22:01] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19208 * Tantek * (+0) reorg
  70. [08:29:58] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19209 * Robert * (+227) Discussion and suggestions -
  71. [08:30:44] <mfbot> [[User:Robert]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Robert * Robert * (+38)
  72. [08:45:10] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19210 * Tantek * (+546) sections, added blog posts
  73. [08:50:41] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19211 * Tantek * (+109) added Zeldman post
  74. [08:51:22] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19212 * Tantek * (+42)
  75. [08:52:58] * danja (n=danja@host116-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  76. [08:54:08] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19213 * Tantek * (+56) added floated TOC
  77. [08:56:00] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19214 * Tantek * (+201)
  78. [08:56:21] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19215 * Tantek * (+16)
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  80. [08:58:03] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  83. [09:00:47] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19216 * Tantek * (+101) View blog reactions
  84. [09:05:38] * drewinthehead_ (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-23628a2d1ba2af55) has joined #microformats
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  87. [09:08:02] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@d54C57894.access.telenet.be) has joined #microformats
  88. [09:08:02] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/
  89. [09:11:43] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19217 * Robert * (+151)
  90. [09:11:54] <mfbot> [[events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2007-07-28-portable-social-networks-meetup&diff=0&oldid=19218 * Robert * (-1)
  91. [09:17:36] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19219 * DenisDefreyne * (+29) Not sure where the hAppcast came from, but it's gone now.
  92. [09:21:05] <ddfreyne> Eh…  shouldn't the "Existing schemas" section of http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-examples be transferred to appcast-formats/
  93. [09:21:07] <ddfreyne> ?
  94. [09:27:07] <mfbot> [[appcast-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-formats * DenisDefreyne * (+1674) Moving existing schemas section from appcast-examples to appcast-formats
  95. [09:27:28] <mfbot> [[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=19220 * DenisDefreyne * (-1413) Moving existing schemas section from appcast-examples to appcast-formats
  96. [09:28:07] * briansuda (n=d91cb139@nicola.textdrive.com) has joined #microformats
  97. [09:28:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  98. [09:28:08] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  99. [09:36:15] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  100. [09:36:15] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  101. [09:38:45] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19221 * DenisDefreyne * (+408) Adding "Software using appcasts" section
  102. [09:39:11] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19222 * DenisDefreyne * (-1) fixing markup
  103. [09:44:02] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19223 * DenisDefreyne * (+134) Adding appcast links to Exploratory Discussions section
  104. [09:44:25] * Blueberry (n=blue@c211-30-199-122.carlnfd3.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  105. [09:45:07] <Blueberry> Heya
  106. [09:45:37] <Blueberry> I'm wondering if there's any even slightly established standard for freeform html profiles?
  107. [09:46:41] <Blueberry> I see hCard, but that seems very set to a specific format, and the website I'm working on really aught to be connected with as many standards as it can, but centers around free form profiles which would contain paragraphs, headings, images as blocks, and <dl>'s
  108. [09:47:12] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@hq.last.fm) has joined #microformats
  109. [09:47:13] <jibot> julianstahnke is Julian Stahnke and works for Last.fm and can be found at julianstahnke.com
  110. [09:47:18] <briansuda> could you explain further, what you mean by free form profiles?
  111. [09:47:20] <ddfreyne> I'm not sure what you mean by freeform HTML profiles…  do you mean user profiles where users can write the HTML themselves?
  112. [09:47:26] <briansuda> just text in prose?
  113. [09:47:31] <tantek> Blueberry, hCard works with a variety of HTML profiles
  114. [09:47:48] * briansuda things profiles means user description
  115. [09:48:00] <tantek> = "note" property in hCard
  116. [09:48:01] <briansuda> not XMDP profiles
  117. [09:48:10] <Blueberry> no, not on my website at least, they'll be using a javascript based wysiwyg editor to add blocks and things and arrage them (not in the typical sense of editable regions, but never the less wysiwyg)
  118. [09:48:14] <ddfreyne> the myspace kind of profiles? ;)
  119. [09:48:21] <Blueberry> yes, user descriptions
  120. [09:48:36] <Blueberry> I don't know anything about how myspace works
  121. [09:48:46] <ddfreyne> I wouldn't want to know either :)
  122. [09:49:39] <Blueberry> the trouble with using hcard with note is that I could only provide hcards with a name and a note inside as those are the only set fields
  123. [09:50:11] <tantek> that's fine
  124. [09:50:19] <tantek> that's certainly better than nothing
  125. [09:50:34] <tantek> you could probably also markup the user icon as "logo"
  126. [09:50:42] <tantek> or if they have any photos mark the up with "photo"
  127. [09:51:00] <SignpostMarv> oxymoron: discussion on myspace in a mostly semantic discussion room
  128. [09:51:03] <Blueberry> well, images and photo's too are provided by the user as image blocks in no clear format
  129. [09:51:26] <tantek> doesn't the service have the notion of a ueser icon though?
  130. [09:51:36] <tantek> nearly all seem to
  131. [09:51:40] * SignpostMarv logs onto his myspace page and checks
  132. [09:51:52] <Blueberry> no, unless their OpenID has a pAvatar :)
  133. [09:52:17] <Blueberry> its a publishing tool, not a social networking tool
  134. [09:53:34] <SignpostMarv> in terms of myspace and hCard, I'd consider the image inside the link with an id of "ctl00_Main_ctl00_UserBasicInformation1_hlDefaultImage" as class="photo"
  135. [09:53:42] <Blueberry> I'd idealy like to have it operate in as open a fashion as possible though as I have no motivation to try and own the user's writings and data
  136. [09:55:44] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  137. [09:56:01] <SignpostMarv> it seems everyone's profile that has a default photo setup has a link with that ID
  138. [09:57:55] <Blueberry> I wish there was an OpenID enabled video sharing website :/
  139. [09:58:15] <SignpostMarv> make one :P
  140. [09:58:24] <Blueberry> I'm moneyless
  141. [09:58:38] <Blueberry> I'm so moneyless i'm using php instead of rails just because I can't afford to host rails
  142. [09:58:54] <SignpostMarv> wp_mu + wp open ID plugin that creates local users + video plugins = openID enabled video sharing website
  143. [09:58:54] <Blueberry> stoopid php x.x
  144. [09:59:08] <Blueberry> hmm o_o
  145. [10:00:02] <Blueberry> Still, I don't have the storage, bandwidth, and so on to run a site like that, as it is i'm planning to be running the site off donated shared server space on mediatemple..
  146. [10:00:20] <ddfreyne> I'm struggling a bit with a downloads microformat I'm trying to enhance so it can work with appcast microformat stuff…
  147. [10:00:36] <ddfreyne> The idea is to have a single HTML page which application update tools can fetch and parse to check for updates
  148. [10:00:56] <ddfreyne> However, a single HTML page *could* contain version info for more than one application, architecture, OS, etc
  149. [10:01:29] <ddfreyne> so I'm looking for a way to distinguish between all those "types"… adding an os/arch/app field, for example
  150. [10:01:40] <ddfreyne> but that is likely going to be overly complex…
  151. [10:02:14] <ddfreyne> one possibility would be to allow a single html page to contain only one appcast for only one app, one arch, one OS…
  152. [10:02:21] * Blueberry nags DailyMotion to support openid instead
  153. [10:02:27] <ddfreyne> which may be a bit limiting, but would make stuff a *lot* easier… 
  154. [10:02:30] <ddfreyne> any thoughts?
  155. [10:09:43] * Blueberry nags Revver next
  156. [10:09:57] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: <ul><li class="download_microformat_root_class_name"></li><li class="download_microformat_root_class_name"></li></ul>
  157. [10:10:14] <SignpostMarv> Blueberry: try blip.tv- they seem pretty up on the web2.0 shizznit
  158. [10:10:22] <Blueberry> okay!
  159. [10:10:27] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: eh…  not sure what you mean by that
  160. [10:10:46] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: appcasts are based on hAtom
  161. [10:10:53] <Blueberry> and they're not fugly like youtube :P
  162. [10:10:55] <ddfreyne> are → will be
  163. [10:11:04] <SignpostMarv> the root class name for a microformt defines that element as being the container for a microformat
  164. [10:11:50] <ddfreyne> … and?
  165. [10:11:53] <SignpostMarv> put the rel-enclosure inside the <li>
  166. [10:12:09] <SignpostMarv> define the metadata for the downloads microformat inside the <li>
  167. [10:12:10] <ddfreyne> I don't use ul or li; I use hAtom with rel-enclosure
  168. [10:12:39] <SignpostMarv> and you have multiple download microformats with as many download links per download as you want
  169. [10:12:51] <ddfreyne> rel-enclosure doesn't suffice to distinguish between downloads of different apps/archs/OSes though… check out http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-brainstorming — near the bottom of the page
  170. [10:13:31] * SignpostMarv will read the appcast pages and generate a demo blurb of what he's on about
  171. [10:13:37] <ddfreyne> alright
  172. [10:14:05] <SignpostMarv> note to self: cayenne pepper in chilli gives it a nice colour, but makes it a little too spicy
  173. [10:14:58] <Blueberry> okay, blip nagged too
  174. [10:15:34] <Blueberry> I have a great generic openid nagging template now! I think i'll nag every website I can't be stuffed signing up to but think looks kinda cool
  175. [10:15:54] <Blueberry> complaining ftw!
  176. [10:16:20] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-c5715fbb4fe4966c) has joined #microformats
  177. [10:16:20] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT) and works for Yahoo! in Europe
  178. [10:16:39] <Blueberry> funky, yahoo guy!
  179. [10:17:22] <Blueberry> of all the massive scary global information companies, I think I like yahoo most of all
  180. [10:17:40] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: "cannot use MIME types for this, as not all different download types have their own MIME type"
  181. [10:17:41] <SignpostMarv> ??
  182. [10:17:47] <Blueberry> except for the search engine *hugs Clusty*
  183. [10:18:07] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: there is AFAIK no unique MIME type for rubygems or DMGs, for example
  184. [10:18:52] <ddfreyne> DMGs are usually served as application/octet-stream for instance
  185. [10:19:38] * ddfreyne is starting to think the entire multi-app/arch/os appcast idea is silly
  186. [10:19:39] <Blueberry> I always figured that was just linux servers not having the mimetype setup for them?
  187. [10:19:54] <ddfreyne> Blueberry: no, there simply isn't a MIME type for them
  188. [10:20:03] <Blueberry> hmm
  189. [10:20:45] <SignpostMarv> <span class="filetype mime">application/xhtml+xml</span> or <span class="filetype descriptor"><acronym title="Extensible HyperText Markup Language">XHTML</acronym></span>
  190. [10:21:11] <SignpostMarv> or...
  191. [10:21:59] <SignpostMarv> <span class="filetype"><span class="descriptor"><acronym title="Extensible HyperText Markup Language">XHTML</acronym</span> <span class="mime">application/xhtml+xml</span></span>
  192. [10:23:12] <ddfreyne> Hm, I'm in fact not sure whether the download type (say, DMG, rubygem, …) really matters
  193. [10:23:26] <SignpostMarv> GreaseMonkey support
  194. [10:23:51] <SignpostMarv> say the document represents a bunch of MP3s
  195. [10:24:14] <ddfreyne> this is about appcasts though, so the document would represent a bunch of (app) enclosures
  196. [10:24:26] <SignpostMarv> you could have a greasemonkey script that looks for mp3 audio, and loads up a flash player
  197. [10:24:38] <ddfreyne> what I'd like, is to distinguish different kinds of downloads on the appcast page
  198. [10:24:51] <SignpostMarv> also;
  199. [10:25:16] <ddfreyne> different kinds can be… different arch… different OS… different application… different "format" (pro/lite/…)… etc… I think the easiest way to distinguish between all those is giving them an unique ID
  200. [10:25:20] <SignpostMarv> greasemonkey script to put up a big-ass label that says "there is no download available for your system"
  201. [10:25:24] <ddfreyne> and forgetting about marking up arch/os/whatever
  202. [10:25:59] <ddfreyne> Sparkle (app update framework) would then look for items with a given ID…
  203. [10:26:13] <ddfreyne> … which obviously means that multiple items should have the same ID, which is impossible
  204. [10:26:23] <SignpostMarv> does the microformat make any room for "required libraries" ?
  205. [10:26:36] <ddfreyne> dependencies? no
  206. [10:26:42] <SignpostMarv> should it ?
  207. [10:27:14] <ddfreyne> I don't think it should…  I think this should be kept as simple as possible
  208. [10:27:37] <SignpostMarv> when you download an application, in the description it'll say if there's any dependancies right ?
  209. [10:28:01] <ddfreyne> this is mainly for update checks… so you'll likely already have the application and its dependencies
  210. [10:28:15] <SignpostMarv> "likely" but not necesarily
  211. [10:28:38] <SignpostMarv> if an updated package requires an updated dependancy....
  212. [10:29:38] <ddfreyne> on Mac OS X, dependencies are either delivered by the system or included in the package
  213. [10:30:05] <ddfreyne> so there's virtually no need for dependencies in appcasts
  214. [10:30:19] <ddfreyne> Sparkle doesn't have the notion of dependencies either, and it works perfectly fine
  215. [10:30:37] <ddfreyne> I honestly believe that dependencies are definitely not worth adding to appcasts
  216. [10:31:04] <SignpostMarv> <ul class="dependancies"><li><a class="dependancy required minimum" href="http://example.com/foo.2.0.tar.gz">foo version 2.0</a></li><li><a class="dependancy optional minimum" href="http://example.com/bar.1.0.tar.gz">Bar version 1.0</a></li></ul>
  217. [10:32:20] <ddfreyne> No dependencies.
  218. [10:32:39] <ddfreyne> (Also, it's spelled "dependency" and not "dependancy")
  219. [10:32:49] <SignpostMarv> :P
  220. [10:33:08] <ddfreyne> I don't see what problem adding dependencies solves
  221. [10:33:48] <SignpostMarv> "your application not working" :-P
  222. [10:34:38] <ddfreyne> Sparkle doesn't have dependency stuff, and I've never had that problem… I've used Sparkle for a long time and for many different apps.
  223. [10:35:22] <SignpostMarv> some applications get released and can't include the dependencies for legal reasons
  224. [10:35:28] <ddfreyne> So, no dependencies.
  225. [10:35:57] <SignpostMarv> you're kinda screwed if you don't indicate that the application needs dependencies or don't tell the end-user where to get them
  226. [10:36:37] <ddfreyne> I agree dependencies would be useful if for some reason Gentoo Portage suddenly switches over its massive repository to HTML
  227. [10:36:44] <ddfreyne> but I doubt it'd be very useful otherwise
  228. [10:38:07] <SignpostMarv> audio players, audio encoders etc that don't include LAME. How many of those are there.....
  229. [10:38:12] <ddfreyne> Convince me by creating a "dependencies-examples" page and filling it up for me.
  230. [10:40:13] <ddfreyne> What you're trying to do is convert technology that does not use the web (like gentoo portage) to the web, which is silly
  231. [10:40:50] <ddfreyne> appcasts, on the other hand, are web-related… they use RSS feeds, for example, and download pages usually have very similar information to what is contained in those RSS feeds
  232. [10:42:11] <ddfreyne> So, for the last time…  no dependencies.
  233. [10:44:35] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@213.175.120.26) has joined #microformats
  234. [10:50:04] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
  235. [10:52:01] <ddfreyne> …  but that doesn't solve the multi-arch/app/os/kind appcast problem, though.
  236. [10:53:05] * briansuda wonders if that is a common enough problem that needs solving? the world spins today without a solution
  237. [10:54:10] <ddfreyne> yeah, I think it's simply not worth worrying about
  238. [10:54:35] <ddfreyne> so, multi-whatever appcasts shouldn't be possible
  239. [10:55:46] <ddfreyne> Makes stuff a *lot* easier, too
  240. [10:56:11] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19224 * DenisDefreyne * (+299)
  241. [10:56:25] <SignpostMarv> http://secondlife.com/community/downloads.php one application, 3 different OSes
  242. [10:56:48] <SignpostMarv> http://www.pidgin.im/download/ one application, 4 different OSes
  243. [10:57:18] <ddfreyne> that's not really an appcast page, since it doesn't contain a version history, or downloads for different versions
  244. [10:58:57] <SignpostMarv> http://ati.amd.com/support/driver.html one application, about 14 different OSes
  245. [10:59:42] <SignpostMarv> while the ATI page doesn't contain the versioning information or download links, the pages the form links to do
  246. [11:00:36] <SignpostMarv> the RSS feed http://www2.ati.com/rss/catalyst.rss is pretty much release notes, although it's kind of annoying that it doesn't have the download link in the feed
  247. [11:01:26] <SignpostMarv> multi arch/os appcast would be a suitable replacement for a lot of different pages for ATI's driver download information
  248. [11:01:51] <ddfreyne> I don't disagree that there are quite a few download pages for multiple OSes, but I don't know a clean way to solve this issue
  249. [11:02:28] <Blueberry> wouldn't one appcast with all arch/os combinations be a horrible waste of bandwidth?
  250. [11:02:32] <briansuda> well, there are companies solving this issue already, how do they do it?
  251. [11:03:00] <SignpostMarv> briansuda: they spread the information across *a lot* of pages
  252. [11:03:22] <Blueberry> more often than not i'd have to redownload the appcast as it had changed from the cache'd version only to find none of the updates apply to my system..?
  253. [11:03:35] <SignpostMarv> in ATI's case, it looks like about 2 pages per OS
  254. [11:03:58] <ddfreyne> Blueberry: well, downloading a HTML page every day isn't going to kill your bandwidth ;)
  255. [11:04:22] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: so you're saying multi-* appcasts aren't worth it?
  256. [11:04:23] * SignpostMarv goes and puts together an example using ATI's driver archives as test data
  257. [11:04:43] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: I'm saying not supporting it would be moronic
  258. [11:05:45] <ddfreyne> So… suppose you're an application update framework, and you're fetching an appcast… the page has a lot of enclosures for different OSes… how do you know what enclosure to download?
  259. [11:05:58] <briansuda> i meant companies already solving the downloading problem without a microformat, how are they doing it, manually?
  260. [11:06:22] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:TobyInk * TobyInk * (+322)
  261. [11:06:46] <ddfreyne> briansuda: well, for automatic updates I'd say they're using something like an RSS appcast… which is a feed with enclosures and release notes… but these feeds are limited to one OS, one arch, etc
  262. [11:06:58] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19225 * TobyInk * (+0)
  263. [11:07:19] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19226 * TobyInk * (-4)
  264. [11:07:50] <mfbot> [[User:TobyInk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk&diff=0&oldid=19227 * TobyInk * (+0)
  265. [11:08:41] <ddfreyne> the reason why an appcast microformat would be useful, is because there would be no need for a RSS feed anymore… but having a separate HTML page for every app/os/arch may require structural changes in the web site, which are not always possible
  266. [11:09:11] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  267. [11:09:23] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) has left #microformats
  268. [11:10:42] <ddfreyne> One way to have multi-* appcasts would be to put all hentry's with rel-enclosures in an element with id="macosx-lite-x86", and then tell the updater to look for hentry's in an id macosx-lite-x86
  269. [11:10:51] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-nonWGS84]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-nonWGS84&diff=0&oldid=19228 * TobyInk * (+49) thare -
  270. [11:10:52] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-c5715fbb4fe4966c) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  271. [11:11:19] <ddfreyne> But even that is not always possible, because downloads might be grouped by version, and not by os/arch/whatever
  272. [11:11:42] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-nonWGS84]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-nonWGS84&diff=0&oldid=19229 * TobyInk * (+0) thare -
  273. [11:11:43] <SignpostMarv> http://ati.amd.com/support/drivers/xp/radeonxprevious-xp.html
  274. [11:11:55] <SignpostMarv> downloads grouped by operating system :-P
  275. [11:12:33] <ddfreyne> I think it'd be useful to add all these URLs to the appcast-examples page
  276. [11:13:09] * briansuda wonders if you are documenting current behaviour or inventing new ones?
  277. [11:14:41] <ddfreyne> documenting current behavior, although I have a tendency to stray a bit, sometimes
  278. [11:14:56] <ddfreyne> the MySQL downloads page is probably the most annoying page I've seen
  279. [11:14:57] <ddfreyne> http://dev.mysql.com/downloads/mysql/5.0.html
  280. [11:15:01] * danja (n=danja@host33-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  281. [11:15:01] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  282. [11:15:37] <ddfreyne> it's semi-grouped by version, OS, architecture, and "kind" (server, client, libraries, whatever)
  283. [11:17:47] <ddfreyne> Hm, the mysql download page *could* simply use an unique ID per download, such as id="win-x64-no-installer"
  284. [11:18:37] <ddfreyne> I'm starting to think there needs to be a distinction between release notes pages, and downloads pages
  285. [11:19:10] <ddfreyne> RSS appcasts combine downloads and release notes, but most release notes pages don't have downloads and downloads pages don't have release notes
  286. [11:19:54] <ddfreyne> I also think we're making this much harder than it could be :)
  287. [11:20:43] <briansuda> hm, if apps are already using RSS with enclosers, why don't you look at how to get a downloads page marked-up in hAtom with a rel_enclosure so that existing apps can consume that?
  288. [11:20:58] <briansuda> no need to re_invent the wheel
  289. [11:21:02] <ddfreyne> already did that
  290. [11:21:15] <ddfreyne> http://microformats.org/wiki/appcast-brainstorming — check the Proposal section
  291. [11:21:54] <ddfreyne> that is a proposal for a an appcast for a single app/arch/os/etc
  292. [11:22:09] <briansuda> then i'd say focus on that instead of inventing new ideas
  293. [11:22:38] <briansuda> it is the path of least resistance, you can itterate later, you don't even have aproduct forst
  294. [11:22:42] <ddfreyne> well, the idea was to have multiple hfeeds on one page; one for different OSes, architectures, etc
  295. [11:23:04] <ddfreyne> problem is… how do app update frameworks (like Sparkle) know what hfeed to look for?
  296. [11:23:10] <SignpostMarv> yar: last 3 versions of the 32bit winxp Catalyst drivers: http://dev.signpostmarv.name/pub/microformats/appcast-ati-catalyst-winxp-x86.xhtml
  297. [11:23:34] <ddfreyne> (I already have a hacked-together Sparkle which supports microformat appcasts)
  298. [11:23:38] * SignpostMarv used his blog's output as a template, since it already used hAtom
  299. [11:23:43] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: 403
  300. [11:24:02] <SignpostMarv> damn. must've overwritten the pub .htaccess file
  301. [11:24:54] <SignpostMarv> try now
  302. [11:25:03] <ddfreyne> so…  if an appcast can contain multiple apps/archs/os'es, then there should be a way to distinguish between them… which is what I'm trying to do
  303. [11:25:44] <SignpostMarv> <a rel="enclosure" class="winxp x86">
  304. [11:25:47] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: yeah, that's pretty much what I had already
  305. [11:25:51] <ddfreyne> ah…
  306. [11:26:03] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: well, there would be a *LOT* of classes to mark that up
  307. [11:26:24] <SignpostMarv> have you had a look at the amount of classes in an hAtom page ?
  308. [11:26:40] <SignpostMarv> <div id="post-92" class="hentry p3 post publish author-admin category-llsd category-second-life y2007 m05 d31 h02">
  309. [11:26:41] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: winxp, winvista, winxp64, winvista64, winvistahome, winvistabiz, macosx103, macosx104, macosx104ub, …
  310. [11:26:49] <SignpostMarv> ah
  311. [11:27:02] <SignpostMarv> "winxp x86", "winxp x64"
  312. [11:27:07] <ddfreyne> and then you could have different kinds of your app… like pro, lite, etc
  313. [11:27:30] <SignpostMarv> that would be a different package
  314. [11:27:33] <ddfreyne> different "editions"
  315. [11:27:43] <ddfreyne> it sure would… you can't upgrade a Lite version to a Pro version
  316. [11:27:43] <briansuda> how do they do it now?
  317. [11:28:10] <SignpostMarv> take a look at the source code for the ATI example
  318. [11:28:28] <SignpostMarv> <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Catalyst</span> <span class="version">7.6</span></h2>
  319. [11:28:52] <ddfreyne> class="package"?
  320. [11:29:07] <SignpostMarv> switch this to trillian and you have <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Trillian Pro</span> <span class="version">3.1</span></h2> and <h2 class="entry-title"><span class="package">Trillian Lite</span> <span class="version">3.1</span></h2>
  321. [11:29:56] <ddfreyne> so you're saying, simply put the kind (os/arch/whatever) in the title?
  322. [11:30:16] <ddfreyne> (or at least in the hentry)
  323. [11:30:17] <SignpostMarv> well it depends on how the document is laid out
  324. [11:30:53] <SignpostMarv> if it's one feed per OS, then your architecture indicators would be on the rel-enclosure element
  325. [11:31:07] <ddfreyne> briansuda: how it's done now… with rss appcasts: separate feeds… with html pages: well, it's not marked up at all yet
  326. [11:31:43] <ddfreyne> By the way, is there anything that uses RSS appcasts on windows or linux/unix?
  327. [11:31:47] <SignpostMarv> if it's one feed per OS/arch combo, then your OS & architecture indicators would go in one of the parent element of the rel-enclosure element, but a child element of the hentry element
  328. [11:32:35] <ddfreyne> it may not be able to go directly on the rel-enclosure link if the metadata is visible… so again there'd be need for a download microformat
  329. [11:32:57] <SignpostMarv> hrm ?
  330. [11:33:37] <ddfreyne> <a href="blah.zip">Download</a> (MD5 sum: 0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08)
  331. [11:33:50] <ddfreyne> Marking that up would require something more than just rel-enclosure
  332. [11:34:40] <ddfreyne> Something like this might work:
  333. [11:34:40] <ddfreyne> <span class="download"><a href="blah.zip" rel="enclosure">Download</a> (MD5 sum: <span class="checksum md5">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f08</span>)</span>
  334. [11:35:03] <ddfreyne> that adds 1) a "download" wrapper, 2) rel-enclosure, 3) checksums
  335. [11:35:10] <ddfreyne> (could also add arch/os/whatever details)
  336. [11:35:33] <briansuda> so you want a list of THINGS possibly multiple lists of THINGs on the same page, and you want to know how to only get a sub-set based on OS, ect
  337. [11:35:36] <SignpostMarv> <div class="hentry"><div class="entry-content"><a class="entry-title" href="blah.zip" rel="enclosure">Blah</a> (MD5 sum: <span class="checksum md5">0f182a2c88373e6d77c69fa15c910f0</span>)</div></div>
  338. [11:35:48] <ddfreyne> briansuda: exactly
  339. [11:35:50] <briansuda> with HTML and lists you can use the # and pull out only 1 of the 3 lists
  340. [11:36:03] <briansuda> then people simple SUBSCRIBE to the OS list they want
  341. [11:36:13] <briansuda> why make the app smart, let the people choose
  342. [11:36:19] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: putting "download" as the link text is probably about as semantic as having "click here" as link text
  343. [11:36:30] <ddfreyne> SignpostMarv: it's an example
  344. [11:37:18] <SignpostMarv> briansuda: CNET.com/s download.com site, majorgeeks.com etc could subscribe to the multi-OS/arch feed, whereas an end-user would subscribe to the feed matching their platform
  345. [11:37:23] <ddfreyne> briansuda: I like that solution… it breaks if downloads are grouped by version instead of OS/arch/whatever though
  346. [11:37:50] <SignpostMarv> if there isn't a single feed for a single platform, then their appcast parser only download the appropriate files
  347. [11:37:52] <briansuda> yeah, you can do that by simply linking to the list you want and ID each list
  348. [11:38:11] <ddfreyne> briansuda: although perhaps there's not many download pages that group downloads by version
  349. [11:38:33] <briansuda> then this isn't a common problem
  350. [11:38:34] <ddfreyne> that's a lot of different IDs then, though
  351. [11:38:40] <briansuda> now
  352. [11:38:44] <briansuda> no...
  353. [11:38:49] <briansuda> one id for each list
  354. [11:38:54] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: SVN browsing :-P
  355. [11:39:04] <ddfreyne> the ID solution is a clean and very simple one
  356. [11:39:08] <SignpostMarv> also: http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=21558&package_id=15149&release_id=501534
  357. [11:39:08] <briansuda> a list for WinXP, a list fo Vista, a list for binary
  358. [11:39:22] <SignpostMarv> ^ a page grouping downloads by version
  359. [11:39:29] <ddfreyne> hm.
  360. [11:39:31] <briansuda> just like if you have a page of hCards, you can target a single one
  361. [11:39:42] <briansuda> or a single list, which is a sub-set of the whole thing
  362. [11:40:04] <mfbot> [[User:Alper]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Alper * Alper * (+90)
  363. [11:40:12] <briansuda> maybe you should take some time and familiarize yourself with the dev-list archives
  364. [11:40:15] <ddfreyne> briansuda: Ah, eh… sorry, I got lost there… could you give a small example of how a page grouped by version would be marked up?
  365. [11:40:33] <briansuda> it helps to understand parsing before proposing a new format
  366. [11:40:40] <SignpostMarv> ddfreyne: go look at how sourceforge does it
  367. [11:41:17] <ddfreyne> Ahh, right.
  368. [11:42:24] <ddfreyne> I'll also check out microformats-dev; I'm only on -new and -discuss right now
  369. [11:45:28] <briansuda> i might recommend that it be a requirement before proposing a new format... people recently who have proposed formats were completely un-aware of how the parsing model works!
  370. [11:46:02] <briansuda> the tricky thing is you can join the dev list and read it, but understanding is ultimately the important part
  371. [11:46:04] <ddfreyne> I have some experience, but I do agree I could learn a lot
  372. [11:46:43] <briansuda> things like the #id reference targeting would help to guide dicussions based on existing microformats trends rather than inventing new stuff
  373. [11:47:24] <briansuda> well, it is a matter of to test that experience... understanding is required, but shouldn't limit people from contributing
  374. [11:48:48] <briansuda> if existing apps are pulling in RSS with enclosers, then )my thought) would be get them more feeds with enclosers to consume.... we you setup a page that vends RSS for them, users can pick and choose their desired feeds to watch based on their own OS, etc
  375. [11:49:12] <briansuda> you can do that new with Dapple (dappit) but it would be different for every site
  376. [11:49:32] <briansuda> something like hAtom would certainly make that middle-man´s job alot easier
  377. [11:51:28] * ddfreyne nods
  378. [11:52:28] <ddfreyne> so I assume you think that the appcast microformat as it is now is a decent start?
  379. [11:52:55] <ddfreyne> (not without flaws of course)
  380. [11:53:20] <briansuda> well, i need to read it over, but i'm not sure how much it diversges from hAtom?
  381. [11:53:38] <briansuda> or if it is just 1-2 fields + hAtom?
  382. [11:53:57] <ddfreyne> It's basically hAtom, with a few extra information about the application version, MD5/SHA1 checksums, etc
  383. [11:54:25] <briansuda> ok. then for my first steps, mark-up some pages with JUST hAtom and see if an app can comsume that
  384. [11:54:56] <briansuda> because if the current apps are JUST using RSS, then how are they getting the MD5 and if they are NOT, then is it really that important?
  385. [11:55:41] <ddfreyne> they're JUST using RSS—there's some extensions Sparkle uses… <enclosure sparkle:md5sum="…" href="…"/> — that kind of thing
  386. [11:55:48] <briansuda> it maybe be important for alpha geeks to have a checksum, but if people are using things like Sparkle without checksums, then don't let that hold back development
  387. [11:56:13] <briansuda> ok, so then just document those small custom attributes
  388. [11:56:23] <briansuda> if there are some commonalities, then we work from there
  389. [11:57:02] <ddfreyne> HTML appcasts don't need any custom attributes at all, but these custom attributes can be used to tweak the feed or add more functionality
  390. [11:57:52] <ddfreyne> I'll start by converting a few existing RSS appcasts to hAtom; should be fairly easy
  391. [11:58:03] <briansuda> ok, then see where the holes are
  392. [11:58:42] <briansuda> i think a discussion about hAtom + 1-2 attributes is much better than a new format, even if it is identical to hAtom
  393. [11:59:43] <ddfreyne> my appcast microformat idea has always been based off hAtom though… if RSS appcasts use RSS, it's be silly not to use hAtom for HTML appcasts
  394. [11:59:46] <briansuda> optionally extending hAtom is a better choice (IMHO) that way you also get the benefits of hAtom work and any itterations with that format
  395. [11:59:58] * SignpostMarv (n=Signpost@82-71-31-169.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving")
  396. [12:00:14] <ddfreyne> indeed
  397. [12:00:22] <briansuda> right, like i said, i haven´'t read through the appcast page, but maybe it should be billed as appcast-hatom-extention
  398. [12:00:31] * Blueberry (n=blue@c211-30-199-122.carlnfd3.nsw.optusnet.com.au) has left #microformats
  399. [12:01:01] <ddfreyne> I think chris already mentioned that on the appcast page…
  400. [12:01:07] <ddfreyne> ah — "Lastly, this work should be seen as compatible with hAtom, possibly as a prelude to a format that could be embedded as the payload of an hfeed object."
  401. [12:03:30] <briansuda> i'd say, instead of a format that could be embedded... to something more like, microformat properties that define additional semantics that can exist inside an hentry
  402. [12:04:33] <briansuda> because, basically, when you create a new property name, it can be used in ANY format in the future
  403. [12:05:05] <briansuda> so if end-up createing something like DURATION (which exisits in hCalendar) you can re-use it in a media format
  404. [12:05:33] <briansuda> so something like checksum or md5 is NOT really specific to appcast, but becomes a semantic property that can be used else where
  405. [12:05:56] <briansuda> you are basically creating an elementary microformat, like rel-tag
  406. [12:06:07] <briansuda> that can be added into other format to give additional semantics
  407. [12:06:41] <briansuda> maybe you should think of appcast extentions in this way rather than a full on format in-itself?
  408. [12:06:52] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106001346fa7d6d.wp.shawcable.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  409. [12:07:22] <ddfreyne> well, I was thinking of working on the downloads microformat (see downloads-brainstorming) while working on hatom
  410. [12:08:09] <ddfreyne> which is basically a microformat that builds on rel-enclosure but adds checksums, for example
  411. [12:08:27] <ddfreyne> and there's also the hash-examples pages, which is also quite useful
  412. [12:08:40] <briansuda> um, is that the same thing then? one is just for semantics sake and the other is to be used in RSS
  413. [12:08:40] <ddfreyne> so I'd like to reuse all that stuff as much as possible
  414. [12:08:59] <briansuda> you don´t HAVE to think of hAtom as only an RSS output
  415. [12:09:27] <briansuda> things like hCards dont HAVE to be vCards, they can be FoAF files, vCards, CSV, passed to other services, etc
  416. [12:09:37] <briansuda> it isn't a 1:1 output mapping
  417. [12:10:00] <ddfreyne> no, of course not… but rel-enclosure is simply too tiny; adding checksums to rel-enclosure requires a larger microformat
  418. [12:10:19] <briansuda> so if you have checksum info for appcast and that is the same data for downloads, then you are creating 2 formats that map to 2 different outputs
  419. [12:10:48] <briansuda> just use one format hAtom+appcast and map it to RSS and to your POSH markup
  420. [12:10:50] <ddfreyne> oh, but checksums would only be used for enclosures
  421. [12:11:16] <ddfreyne> (there's no checksum for the appcast itself, only for enclosures)
  422. [12:11:22] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  423. [12:11:45] <briansuda> so, each download this app, page is just the same as a feed entry
  424. [12:12:26] <briansuda> the purpose statement on the downloads page is EXACTLY the same as you just explain app-casting to me, except one consumes RSS, the other consumes SOMETHING and aggregates it
  425. [12:12:36] <briansuda> why not have that SOMETHING be the same RSS?
  426. [12:12:52] <briansuda> or any XML format they want from the mciroforatted data
  427. [12:12:59] <briansuda> hAtom can map to multiple outputs
  428. [12:15:03] <ddfreyne> the downloads page would indeed pretty much map to the rss appcast feed
  429. [12:16:42] <ddfreyne> although I'm not entirely sure what you're saying
  430. [12:17:58] <ddfreyne> I'm mapping the RSS appcast (with its sparkle extensions) to HTML pretty much directly, and that's working out quite well so far
  431. [12:20:53] <briansuda> OK, so now that data in in HTML
  432. [12:21:37] <briansuda> is there a need for a seperate Download format? of just use the exact same fields and let the end user send it to appcast.xml or downloadlist.xml or sitemap.xml
  433. [12:22:00] <briansuda> you are just adding semantics, NOT mapping to a given format
  434. [12:22:45] <briansuda> if you do things right, then if next year Apple or Windows, releases an XML format to slurp into their updater, we don´t need to do anything but map hAtom+appcast to the new XML
  435. [12:23:30] <briansuda> microformats map to multiple outputs, even outputs that we can't think of, or haven't been invented yet
  436. [12:24:05] <briansuda> having semantics ABOUT a file or ABOUT a song or movie can be pushed around or slurped up by any app in various formats
  437. [12:24:06] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106001346fa7d6d.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  438. [12:24:06] <jibot> Mr_Elusive is not a programmer from id but makes his home at http://eswat.ca
  439. [12:24:08] <ddfreyne> ah, yea
  440. [12:24:25] <briansuda> there isn't any difference than a download-format and hAtom+appcast extentions
  441. [12:24:39] <briansuda> because they BOTH can map to each others outputs
  442. [12:24:56] <briansuda> a download-format is just an hAtom with one entry
  443. [12:25:00] <briansuda> right?
  444. [12:25:23] <ddfreyne> it can have more than one entry, but only the most recent one will be used
  445. [12:26:07] <ddfreyne> well, by the updater framework at least
  446. [12:26:14] <briansuda> well, a page at (Download.com (http://download.com/), Tucows (http://tucows.com/), SourceForge (http://sourceforge.net/), etc.) has a big DOWNLOAD THIS NOW button with some metadata
  447. [12:26:27] <briansuda> that is really just hAtom+appcast with one entry right?
  448. [12:27:00] <ddfreyne> yes
  449. [12:27:15] <briansuda> whereas an appcast PAGE is the same thing, but instead of "subscribing" to a single file, you are subscribing to a list which you KNOW will be updaing
  450. [12:27:20] <briansuda> right?
  451. [12:28:55] <ddfreyne> you'd subscribe to a single page, containing hentry's for each new release (or just one hentry, because the older hentry's will be ignored by sparkle)
  452. [12:29:15] <briansuda> right, but that ignore is app specific, but generally yes
  453. [12:29:23] <ddfreyne> yes
  454. [12:30:02] <briansuda> so, i hope you can see where i am coming from, when i say that the download-format is the same thing as hatom+appcast extentions. The two are interchanable
  455. [12:30:20] <ddfreyne> yes, they are
  456. [12:30:23] <briansuda> you are just using the hAtom as your container element, like vcard or vevent or hresume
  457. [12:30:44] <briansuda> i hope that can help guide some further decisions as you develop the formats
  458. [12:30:46] <ddfreyne> althought it might look odd to be using hatom to mark up a download… might not immediately make much sense
  459. [12:31:00] <briansuda> you can probably fold the brainstorming pages for downloads and appcats together
  460. [12:31:05] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  461. [12:31:17] <ddfreyne> I was thinking about doing that, yeah
  462. [12:31:18] <briansuda> or just finish downloads and then say how it can map to a custom RSS
  463. [12:32:25] <briansuda> so it isn't realy "relating to appcast" it iS appcast
  464. [12:32:31] <ddfreyne> so I also assume that means a hentry can only have one single enclosure, and that stuff like checksums will go into the hentry body itself?
  465. [12:32:46] <ddfreyne> hm…
  466. [12:33:27] <briansuda> that is an issue with the BIGGER Atom protocol not hAtom, so look there
  467. [12:33:45] <briansuda> also, someone wrote: span with "md5" and "checksum" classes
  468. [12:33:59] <briansuda> i would avoid adding MD5 and CHECKSUM as classes
  469. [12:34:27] <briansuda> those should be human readable, so you want to emulate the same format as phone numbers and addresses, which makes this extensible
  470. [12:34:37] <ddfreyne> I took that from the hash-examples page
  471. [12:35:03] <briansuda> class=type>md5</span><span class=value>jehy482394hjiew...
  472. [12:35:21] <briansuda> then someone needs to update the hash-examples page
  473. [12:35:57] <ddfreyne> it hasn't been touched for almost a year ;)
  474. [12:36:05] <briansuda> md5 has been cracked, so it is just a matter of time until we get md6, 7 ...123 so no need to create microformat properties for obsolete hash types
  475. [12:36:23] <briansuda> then feel free to update it yourself ;)
  476. [12:36:26] <ddfreyne> yeah, and there's an incredible amount of hashing algorithms anyway
  477. [12:36:42] <ddfreyne> now seems to be the perfect time to do so
  478. [12:36:44] <briansuda> so the TYPE/VALUE system can keep it open ended enough
  479. [12:37:28] <briansuda> then you are just creating a single new value class="hash" or somthing and you can extend that using TYPE to any new algorithm in the future
  480. [12:38:20] <ddfreyne> yep
  481. [12:38:51] <briansuda> so far, that would be the only addition to hAtom, from the looks of the appcast example
  482. [12:39:19] <briansuda> you also mention the whole OS/platform but that might better be served by letting the user subscribe to what that want
  483. [12:39:21] <ddfreyne> well, there's still the "version" attribute
  484. [12:39:29] <briansuda> why?
  485. [12:39:50] <ddfreyne> the updater needs to figure out what hentry's correspond with what application versions
  486. [12:39:55] <briansuda> i get a new item in my AppCast reader, i read the title... iTunes 7.3.2.1.23.5.6.7
  487. [12:40:11] <briansuda> the hash is unique
  488. [12:40:51] <briansuda> the reader knows what you have looked at, and/or downloaded already
  489. [12:41:21] <ddfreyne> well, Sparkle (or any updater framework) needs to extract the versions so it can be compared to the current version of the app
  490. [12:41:42] <briansuda> it doen´t HAVE to
  491. [12:41:52] <briansuda> tit can and will list version you already have
  492. [12:42:16] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  493. [12:42:17] <briansuda> it is nice, but how does appcast know what version you have currently anyway?
  494. [12:43:05] <ddfreyne> Mac apps have a version number, which is extracted from the application by sparkle… and all versions are extracted from the appcast as well… and then the current app version is compared to the versions in the appcast
  495. [12:43:28] <mfbot> [[hcard-de]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-de * -stk * (+302)
  496. [12:43:49] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19230 * Alper * (+566) Issues - added richer profiles
  497. [12:43:55] <briansuda> what about windows?
  498. [12:44:20] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability&diff=0&oldid=19231 * Alper * (-4) Issues -
  499. [12:44:37] <ddfreyne> I assume windows apps all have a version number as well… one that can be accessed programmatically
  500. [12:44:39] <briansuda> well, version already exisits as a microformat property
  501. [12:44:41] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/classes
  502. [12:44:55] <briansuda> so you are really only looking at HASH
  503. [12:46:26] <ddfreyne> specifying the version number in a hatom feed with appcast extensions is not necessary for sparkle… sparkle will try to interpret the enclosure filename as APPNAME_VERSION.EXT and extract version that way, if possible
  504. [12:46:55] <ddfreyne> that's rather sparkle-specific, perhaps
  505. [12:47:13] <briansuda> versions aren´t always inorder or numeric either
  506. [12:48:48] <ddfreyne> I think comparing version numbers lexicographically usually works
  507. [12:49:39] <briansuda> ok, i hope that gives you something to chew on when re-working some of the wiki pages. i encourage you to do so
  508. [12:49:49] <ddfreyne> and if an app uses a really strange version numbering scheme…  then sparkle could still check whether there's any hentry's newer than the one matching the current version
  509. [12:50:16] <briansuda> yup, the hAtom updates/published date gives you order
  510. [12:50:17] <ddfreyne> but that's not really specific to appcasts anymore
  511. [12:50:46] <briansuda> i need to grab some lunch i´ll be back later, email me or the list, or dump some ideas on the wiki
  512. [12:50:51] <ddfreyne> alright, I'm going to get some lunch
  513. [12:51:07] <ddfreyne> thanks for the discussion
  514. [12:51:20] <ddfreyne> I'll be updating the wiki (hash, downloads, appcast pages)
  515. [12:51:24] <briansuda> not a problem, over IRC it is faster and easier than the list
  516. [12:51:35] <briansuda> thanks for the wiki updates, you know your material best
  517. [12:51:41] <ddfreyne> seeya, enjoy your meal
  518. [12:51:48] <briansuda> you should also ping chris, he has been working on this too
  519. [12:51:57] <ddfreyne> will do
  520. [12:57:09] * danja (n=danja@host33-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
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  522. [13:09:55] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-63423786be7ae8db) has joined #microformats
  523. [13:09:55] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT) and works for Yahoo! in Europe
  524. [13:11:57] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19232 * DenisDefreyne * (+495) Adding Issues subsection to Proposal section
  525. [13:21:33] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19233 * -stk * (+107)
  526. [13:42:05] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19234 * DenisDefreyne * (+502) Adding proposal #2
  527. [13:42:42] <ddfreyne> Looks like hash-examples could be split up in hash-brainstorming, etc
  528. [13:47:46] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19235 * DenisDefreyne * (-795) Changed checksum to use type/value; changing entry-version to version; removing downloads microformat in proposal; cleanup
  529. [13:50:27] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19236 * DenisDefreyne * (+7) formatting cleanup
  530. [13:54:31] * vant (n=vant@p3029-ipbf3304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  531. [13:55:09] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19237 * DenisDefreyne * (+85)
  532. [13:57:10] <mfbot> [[hash-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hash-brainstorming * DenisDefreyne * (+2935) Moving non-example stuff from hash-examples to hash-brainstorming
  533. [13:57:16] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19238 * DenisDefreyne * (-2898) Moving non-example stuff from hash-examples to hash-brainstorming
  534. [13:57:57] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19239 * DenisDefreyne * (+99) Re-adding missing participants
  535. [14:02:03] * goya (n=mail@124.32.114.226) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  537. [14:09:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  538. [14:09:35] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  539. [14:10:23] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  540. [14:10:23] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  541. [14:12:20] <dglazkov> hi mkaply
  542. [14:12:49] <mkaply> dglazkov: hey
  543. [14:13:16] <dglazkov> how's ff3 mf ui coming?
  544. [14:13:59] <ddfreyne> I thought that meant final fantasy 3, for a split second.
  545. [14:15:06] <mkaply> dglazkov: I think we've decided on a sidebar type ui
  546. [14:15:29] <mkaply> I'm going to get Operator 0.8 done today or Monday and then work on the new UI
  547. [14:15:45] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit ()
  548. [14:22:46] * briansuda (n=d91cb139@nicola.textdrive.com) Quit ("CGI:IRC (Ping timeout)")
  549. [14:24:21] <dglazkov> any info I could peruse on exposed extensibility API?
  550. [14:26:51] <dglazkov> I am quite fond of the idea which extends on the "Sub-page history" concept, described by Alex
  551. [14:28:26] <dglazkov> http://blog.mozilla.com/faaborg/2007/02/04/microformats-part-4-the-user-interface-of-microformat-detection/
  552. [14:30:31] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
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  554. [14:30:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  555. [14:39:13] * sreynen (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) has joined #microformats
  556. [14:39:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  557. [14:39:13] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  558. [14:53:34] * bengee (n=bengee@ip48.209.reserved.ish.de) Quit ("Leaving")
  559. [15:00:10] <mkaply> dglazkov: So at this point there is going to be a full microformats backend API
  560. [15:00:19] <mkaply> So any extension can access microformats "easily"
  561. [15:00:24] <dglazkov> nice
  562. [15:00:32] <dglazkov> any wikified info anywhere to read up on?
  563. [15:00:34] <mkaply> So anyone could write UI as described in that post
  564. [15:01:07] <mkaply> http://wiki.mozilla.org/User:Mkaply:Fx-Docs:Microformats/Architecture
  565. [15:01:12] <mkaply> This is pretty current
  566. [15:03:08] <dglazkov> this looks good
  567. [15:03:21] * dglazkov bookmarks
  568. [15:03:51] <mkaply> The main things I'm still finaling is how certain types of data is stored in the JS object (like Html vs text, etc.)
  569. [15:04:37] <dglazkov> in this context, XOXO support becomes useful
  570. [15:04:51] * dglazkov is a XOXO nut, beware
  571. [15:05:33] <dglazkov> I can now glean a configuration/settings from a page using API
  572. [15:05:38] * mkaply never really understood XOXO - couldn't figure out a way to put it in Operator from a UI perspective
  573. [15:06:05] <dglazkov> alright, hang on...
  574. [15:06:49] <dglazkov> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/181191
  575. [15:07:02] <dglazkov> this is one of the ways I use XOXO
  576. [15:07:22] <dglazkov> as configuration/settings storage method for structured data
  577. [15:07:30] <mkaply> ah
  578. [15:07:46] <dglazkov> this particular bit is a mapping for reading Atom into Estrada Engine (my bab)
  579. [15:07:52] <dglazkov> er, baby
  580. [15:08:32] <dglazkov> I was kidding one time, proposing to write a "How to represent XML in XOXO" article for XML.com on April 1
  581. [15:08:38] <dglazkov> but I wasn't really kidding :)
  582. [15:08:58] <dglazkov> are a you a Mac/Cocoa user?
  583. [15:09:22] <iand> dglazkov: i've been working on representing rdf in xoxo ( http://n2.talis.com/wiki/RDF_JSON_Brainstorming#RDF_in_XOXO )
  584. [15:09:33] <dglazkov> well, there you go :)
  585. [15:10:42] <iand> and we're using it in a live system too
  586. [15:11:06] <iand> see http://api.talis.com/stores (it's unstyled)
  587. [15:11:07] <dglazkov> xoxo, to me, is very appealing for storing structured data, for example configuration
  588. [15:11:24] <iand> and http://api.talis.com/stores?output=xml for rdf/xml equivilent
  589. [15:11:43] <dglazkov> and believe it or not, it feels more "natural" than XML to store Web data
  590. [15:11:46] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  591. [15:12:13] <dglazkov> iand, nice
  592. [15:12:34] <iand> JSON too - but not public yet
  593. [15:13:40] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  594. [15:14:03] <dglazkov> .. back to FF3 context
  595. [15:14:57] <dglazkov> with XOXO parser at hand, now a Firefox extension, for instance, can read configuration/settings from an HTML page.
  596. [15:15:04] <dglazkov> makes sense?
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  599. [15:17:48] * cgriego (n=cgriego@216.138.69.206) has joined #microformats
  600. [15:17:49] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  601. [15:20:31] * bergie (n=bergie@cs181223139.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  602. [15:20:31] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  603. [15:26:39] <mkaply> dglazkov: yep. makes sense
  604. [15:26:43] * mkaply needs briansuda
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  609. [15:37:52] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19240 * ClayNewton * (-3073)
  610. [15:40:56] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  611. [15:47:53] <mfbot> [[hTrade]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hTrade&diff=0&oldid=19241 * ClayNewton * (+25)
  612. [15:48:04] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/trade-examples * ClayNewton * (+1062)
  613. [15:48:55] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19242 * ClayNewton * (-25) DDA/SDA Accounts -
  614. [15:53:06] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19243 * ClayNewton * (+207) added Keep the Change
  615. [15:53:57] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19244 * ClayNewton * (+8)
  616. [15:57:13] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19245 * ClayNewton * (+227)
  617. [15:59:14] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19246 * ClayNewton * (+291)
  618. [15:59:36] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19247 * ManuSporny * (+59) Petition -
  619. [16:00:57] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19248 * ManuSporny * (+32) Preamble -
  620. [16:04:04] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/trade-brainstorming * ClayNewton * (+3093)
  621. [16:06:45] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19249 * ClayNewton * (+63)
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  623. [16:15:26] <taaz> mkaply: hey. I'm now trying to torture Operator with the RDFa version of hAudio. It actually partly works too.
  624. [16:15:52] <mkaply> taaz: Cool. RDFa probably wasn't tested enough because there wasn't enough out there
  625. [16:15:57] <taaz> combining uf + rdfa should be amusing.
  626. [16:16:32] <taaz> mkaply: i guessed that. i think it might be a moving target spec too.
  627. [16:18:08] <taaz> is there an rdfa channel to chat about these issues or will people here not mind too much? :)
  628. [16:20:31] <mkaply> I usually just ask ben adida my rdfa questions - or are these for me?
  629. [16:20:43] <mkaply> taaz: /join #rdfa :)
  630. [16:21:41] <mfbot> [[rest/description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/description&diff=0&oldid=19250 * DrErnie * (+200) Proposals/Examples -
  631. [16:23:07] <mfbot> [[rest/description]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/description&diff=0&oldid=19251 * DrErnie * (+65) Proposals/Examples -
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  635. [16:42:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  636. [16:42:18] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  637. [17:04:21] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  641. [17:38:11] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19252 * ClayNewton * (+3933) First update that actually conforms to examples example.
  642. [17:38:57] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19253 * ClayNewton * (-15) How people trade today -
  643. [17:39:54] * ddfreyne wonders whether chris still sometimes visits this channel
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  649. [17:46:22] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  650. [17:46:38] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
  651. [17:49:29] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19254 * ClayNewton * (+1654) Deposit Accounts -
  652. [17:51:10] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19255 * ClayNewton * (-2) Deposit Accounts -
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  654. [17:53:11] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19256 * ClayNewton * (+59) Deposit Accounts -
  655. [17:54:37] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19257 * ClayNewton * (+40) Wells Fargo -
  656. [17:54:48] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19258 * ClayNewton * (+1) Wells Fargo -
  657. [17:55:14] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19259 * ClayNewton * (+36) Citibank -
  658. [17:55:35] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19260 * ClayNewton * (+43) ING -
  659. [17:55:56] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19261 * ClayNewton * (+36) Amazon.com -
  660. [17:56:17] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19262 * ClayNewton * (+28) eBay -
  661. [17:56:38] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19263 * ClayNewton * (+32) Paypal -
  662. [17:59:17] <mkaply> briansuda - just the guy I wanted to see
  663. [17:59:27] <briansuda> how can i help?
  664. [18:00:38] <mkaply> briansuda: So I'm trying to finalize how to access HTML for vevent description vcard/note but still be in the spec
  665. [18:00:53] <mkaply> here's what I came up with. In Javascript, if you geto hcard.description, you'll get a string
  666. [18:01:08] <mkaply> but you'll be able to go hcard.description.toHTML or as HTML or something like that
  667. [18:01:10] <mkaply> and you'll get the HTML
  668. [18:01:22] * briansuda doesn"t think it is part of the manidtory spec, but just an idea...
  669. [18:01:29] <mkaply> the only downside is stirng functions won't work on the .description
  670. [18:01:37] <briansuda> ok, i follow you so far
  671. [18:01:40] <mkaply> but I hacked at least match and replace to work
  672. [18:01:54] <mkaply> the problem is that the test suite really is looking for text
  673. [18:02:05] <mkaply> but a lot of services (yahoo, google) take the HTML and do much better with it
  674. [18:02:32] <briansuda> which test suit?
  675. [18:02:33] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-068-209-082-227.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Success)
  676. [18:02:57] <mkaply> hg.microformats.org - I realize they are testing conversion to ics specifically
  677. [18:03:05] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19264 * ClayNewton * (+453) Quicken -
  678. [18:03:15] <mkaply> but it's silly for me to write a testcase that makes sure all the HTML is there I think
  679. [18:03:33] <mkaply> I think practically most people will want the text.
  680. [18:03:36] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19265 * ClayNewton * (-17) Deposits Accounts -
  681. [18:03:37] <mkaply> Wanting the HTML is an edgecase
  682. [18:03:45] <briansuda> right
  683. [18:04:01] <briansuda> i think even the styleized text is a BONUS not a requirement
  684. [18:04:18] <mkaply> yeah. I'll be able to do that in Firefox 3. But I'm not going to write a text serializer
  685. [18:04:20] * briansuda remembers his implementation fails on a few examples at the moment
  686. [18:04:49] <mkaply> Cool part is I now have all the tests coded up so I can run a full unit test against my code. Makes life much easier
  687. [18:04:56] <briansuda> ok, so what is the over all question then?
  688. [18:05:03] <briansuda> yeah, automated testing is a good thing
  689. [18:05:52] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19266 * ClayNewton * (-518)
  690. [18:06:18] <mkaply> basically, does that sound like a good solution? vs. trying to do nice text parsing?
  691. [18:06:35] <mkaply> Because this is going in FF3, I want to make sure I do the right thing(TM)
  692. [18:06:43] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19267 * ClayNewton * (+52)
  693. [18:06:55] <briansuda> hm....
  694. [18:07:00] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19268 * ClayNewton * (+2) See Also -
  695. [18:07:41] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19269 * ClayNewton * (+9)
  696. [18:07:50] <briansuda> well. how many people are hooking into that code? the .description and .description.toHTML
  697. [18:07:56] * charles_r (n=charles_@charlesr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  698. [18:07:58] <briansuda> it is just you right?
  699. [18:08:31] <mkaply> eventually any extension writer who wants to access microformats.
  700. [18:09:21] <briansuda> but is .description specific to hcard, or is it now overridden so you can't do .description.toString()
  701. [18:09:27] <tantek> mkaply, do you mean hcard.note rather than hcard.description ?
  702. [18:09:35] <mkaply> tantek: sorry, yes.
  703. [18:09:41] <mkaply> dscription is for hcalendar
  704. [18:09:52] <tantek> just trying to be precise when it comes to programming things / DOMs / APIs
  705. [18:10:41] <mkaply> those are the only two things I consider people needs HTML in. hcard.note, hcalendar.description (there will be an hresume one as well I think)
  706. [18:10:52] <tantek> hreview.description
  707. [18:11:07] <mkaply> briansuda toString() should still work on it. to return a real string
  708. [18:11:18] <tantek> hatom.entrycontent
  709. [18:11:26] <tantek> are others we should consider in that way
  710. [18:11:51] <briansuda> well, ultimately i guess it depends on your output format
  711. [18:11:58] <tantek> right
  712. [18:12:06] <briansuda> for vCard, that can't handle HTML... but XYZ might
  713. [18:12:13] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@adsl-068-209-082-227.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  714. [18:12:59] <briansuda> having a .toHTML() seems like a good solution, but i have never written a Operater user-script, but as an option for other developers it seems a good solution
  715. [18:13:23] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@85.254.221.107) has joined #microformats
  716. [18:17:13] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19270 * ClayNewton * (+33)
  717. [18:18:59] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19271 * ClayNewton * (+11) Current -
  718. [18:20:36] * SunWuKung (i=SunWuKun@S01060016cbc4c705.vc.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  719. [18:20:39] <mkaply> briansuda: Other question was around these URLS
  720. [18:20:45] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-feedback&diff=0&oldid=19272 * TaylorCowan * (+278) General Comments -
  721. [18:20:55] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/tests/hcard/21-tel.html
  722. [18:21:06] <mkaply> the cfax:+1.415.555.1238
  723. [18:21:14] <mkaply> modem:+1.415.555.1241
  724. [18:21:26] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-feedback&diff=0&oldid=19273 * TaylorCowan * (+7) General Comments -
  725. [18:21:43] <mkaply> you seem to handle them a little bit, but you don't get type from the fax: or modem:
  726. [18:21:43] <briansuda> yes, about them?
  727. [18:21:56] <mkaply> Is there actually a spec for those types of URLs/phone numbers?
  728. [18:22:05] <briansuda> no at the moment i don't
  729. [18:22:23] <briansuda> yes, there are RFCs for those protocols... i think we added it to the wiki somewhere, let me look
  730. [18:22:41] <briansuda> ryanking and i talked about those, and possibly backing them out of the tests
  731. [18:23:18] <briansuda> currently they are NOT requirements for parsers (we haven't disucssed it enough yet) so it is abit bad to have tests of things we make people pass without agreeing they are important enough
  732. [18:23:43] <mkaply> ok. I mentioned to ryan that the tests kind of confuse me.
  733. [18:23:51] <mkaply> Looking at the hcalendar tests for instance. Technically over half are "invalid"
  734. [18:23:58] <mkaply> because they are missing dtstart or summary.
  735. [18:24:11] <mkaply> So I'm trying to figure out if vevent REQUIRES dtstart is really true?
  736. [18:24:52] <mkaply> or like the uid test cases for vevent only have uids in the vevent
  737. [18:25:16] <briansuda> what VEVENT requires by the spec and practically are two different things
  738. [18:25:25] <briansuda> by the RFC, NOTHING is required
  739. [18:25:26] <mkaply> http://hg.microformats.org/tests?f=2e38d89422dc;file=hcalendar/18-component-vevent-uid.html;style=gitweb
  740. [18:25:36] <briansuda> practically, things don't import data without a dtstart
  741. [18:26:02] <briansuda> yeah, the hcalendar tests lag behind the hcard ones pretty far
  742. [18:26:48] <mkaply> I'm thinking practically, if someone wants to try to create a hcal without a dtstart, that's ok - if the dom node hsa the vevent class, I'll give them an object. It just wont have object.dtstart
  743. [18:26:53] <mkaply> certainly makes the testing easier :)
  744. [18:27:42] <briansuda> yeah... but you can't create any actions based on it...
  745. [18:27:58] <briansuda> then you get plenty of complains about "my event won't import"
  746. [18:28:11] <briansuda> OK, here's the RFC about TEL protocol http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2806.txt
  747. [18:28:29] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#Using_RFC2806_with_hCard
  748. [18:28:56] <briansuda> the fancy new iPhone supports the TEL protocol
  749. [18:29:04] <mkaply> briansuda: i remember, one more question. so the vcard spec doesn't require a TYPE, correct?
  750. [18:29:11] <briansuda> infact they write what they think are phone numbers and make them TEL:
  751. [18:29:17] * kingryan (n=kingryan@corp.technorati.com) has joined #microformats
  752. [18:29:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  753. [18:29:17] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  754. [18:29:25] <briansuda> type for what? TEL or URL
  755. [18:29:45] <mkaply> TEL
  756. [18:29:53] <mkaply> but if you don't put in a type, outlook ignors it
  757. [18:30:03] <briansuda> i belive that is the case yes...
  758. [18:30:41] <briansuda> according to this, Outlook DOES drop it without a TYPE, http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL
  759. [18:31:25] <briansuda> the vCard RFC has:
  760. [18:31:26] <briansuda> The type can include the type parameter "TYPE" to specify intended
  761. [18:31:26] <briansuda> use for the telephone number.
  762. [18:31:27] <mkaply> I guess what I have trouble with is "export to standard VCARD" vs. "export that works in the main mail app"
  763. [18:31:35] <briansuda> the CAN include makes me read it as optional
  764. [18:31:46] <briansuda> :)
  765. [18:31:54] <briansuda> i think TYPE of VOICE can be the default
  766. [18:32:11] <briansuda> so you CAN add a default type, i'm not sure if Outlook actually does anything with that
  767. [18:32:15] <mkaply> even "should" would be better than "can"
  768. [18:32:26] <tantek> TYPE for tel is "work" per the spec(s)
  769. [18:32:27] <briansuda> or MAY
  770. [18:32:31] <tantek> by default
  771. [18:32:37] <tantek> IIRC
  772. [18:32:45] <mkaply> I figured it should onlt be work if fn = org
  773. [18:32:58] <briansuda> accoring to RFC: The
  774. [18:32:58] <briansuda> default type is "voice".
  775. [18:34:23] <tantek> right. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#type_subproperty_values
  776. [18:34:29] <ddfreyne> Oh, sweet, libxml2 parses HTML as well… very nice
  777. [18:34:32] <tantek> so not "can be" but "is"
  778. [18:34:44] <ddfreyne> (and it parses it as HTML, not XHTML, of course)
  779. [18:35:01] <mkaply> ok. I'll make VOICE the default to satisfy the outlook users.
  780. [18:35:23] <briansuda> well, can you mock-up a test, i have outlook and i can verify that VOICE works?
  781. [18:35:41] <briansuda> they might require TYPE, but also TYPE = HOME/WORK?
  782. [18:38:56] <mkaply> not quickly
  783. [18:39:09] <tantek> mkaply, when you say "satisfy the outlook users" could you be more specific?
  784. [18:40:00] <mkaply> tantek: I get bugs from folks saying "this phone number didn't import" https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389589
  785. [18:40:18] <tantek> i.e. if u r working around a bug in outlook (e.g. non-compliance with RFC2426), please document it here: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#Microsoft_Outlook
  786. [18:40:25] <mkaply> There are so many issues with Outlook vcards, I've considered having "standard export" and "outlook export"
  787. [18:40:30] <tantek> ah ok: http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations#TEL
  788. [18:40:56] <mkaply> Palm desktop is lovely. I documented it there. Having a NAME: in the card fails the import
  789. [18:40:58] <tantek> and be sure to document which *version* of Outlook
  790. [18:41:15] <mkaply> It's pretty sad how many people screwed up implmenting the vcard spec
  791. [18:42:16] <tantek> on both the publishing and consuming side
  792. [18:42:20] <briansuda> well, in actuality Nokia is the only one that is strict about line-endings (per the spec), everyone else is liberal in what they accept.
  793. [18:42:26] <tantek> mkaply, it's a good reason to just use hCards instead, they're easier to read/write than vCards
  794. [18:42:33] <briansuda> well, not liberal enough in some cases
  795. [18:42:56] <mkaply> briansuda: the line endings one is funny. I went ahead and changed that so bluetooth with operator would work
  796. [18:43:08] <mfbot> [[vcard-errata]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata&diff=0&oldid=19274 * Tantek * (+27) add [[vcard-implementations]] link
  797. [18:43:09] <mkaply> Of course everyone still uses Tails to demo it. I'm hurt :)
  798. [18:43:23] <briansuda> i think i also fixed it in the XSLT
  799. [18:43:29] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions&diff=0&oldid=19275 * Tantek * (+28)
  800. [18:44:07] <tantek> mkaply, is that because of the bluetooth support in Tails vs. Operator? or does Operator have the bluetooth support now too?
  801. [18:44:48] <mkaply> I have a user script that adds the same bluetooth to Operator that Tails has
  802. [18:46:39] <briansuda> but only on the mac right?
  803. [18:47:26] <mkaply> yeah. There's no way to invoke the bluetooth transfer programmatically on Windows.
  804. [18:47:50] <mkaply> well, you can invoke it, but you can't pass it a filename
  805. [18:48:03] * briansuda doesn't envy windows users
  806. [18:48:40] <mkaply> I really wanted to do Windows bluetooth support :)
  807. [18:49:34] * danja (n=danja@host33-217-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) has left #microformats
  808. [18:50:09] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  809. [18:50:45] <briansuda> ok, so did we sort out your questions? to some extent?
  810. [18:51:48] <mkaply> briansuda: I think so.
  811. [18:51:55] <mkaply> briansuda: Always helpful as usual
  812. [18:52:19] * briansuda tries, but sometimes creates more questions than answers... needs a score card
  813. [18:53:38] <mkaply> briansuda: What worries me the most in this scenario (and I'm sure you guys have thought of this)
  814. [18:53:54] <mkaply> is that when this code goes in Firefox, it's how a lot of people are going to see microformats in the UI
  815. [18:53:58] * ianloic (n=ian@71.5.56.162.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  816. [18:54:02] <mkaply> So I want to make sure I get it "right" for users and extension developers
  817. [18:54:14] <briansuda> well, so far Operator has been doing well.
  818. [18:54:23] * ianloic (n=ian@71.5.56.162.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  819. [18:54:32] <briansuda> honestly i was REALLY concerned at the start to have microformats baked into the browser
  820. [18:54:54] <briansuda> if IE has it baked in, and gets something WRONG, then everyone codes to the browser, NOT the spec
  821. [18:55:15] <mkaply> yeah. That's why I've been working so hard to make sure I get it right :)
  822. [18:55:21] <briansuda> Operator has been ticking along pretty well, so i'm not worried there
  823. [18:55:30] <mkaply> At this point, the parsing engine going in Firefox is literally the exact same code as Operator. (same file even)
  824. [18:55:33] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) has joined #microformats
  825. [18:55:41] <briansuda> plus, firefox has a pretty good update system... almost too often
  826. [18:55:49] <mkaply> yeah.
  827. [18:55:57] <briansuda> so if there is a hicup it can get corrected
  828. [18:56:00] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-132-175-22.range81-132.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  829. [18:56:07] <mkaply> Oh, I remember one more question
  830. [18:56:08] <briansuda> IE doesn't have quite the same track record
  831. [18:56:10] <mkaply> The value design patter
  832. [18:56:35] <mkaply> <span class="value"><b>foo</b></span><span class="value"><b>bar</b></span>
  833. [18:56:54] <mkaply> Do I grab the EXACT content of the value? Including the HTML? Or are values textContent as well?
  834. [18:57:11] <mkaply> I know that's a real edge case because if someone cared about value, they would only specify the exact stuff they wanted in the value
  835. [18:57:19] <briansuda> well, i guess it depends on the output...
  836. [18:57:31] <briansuda> in vCard FN you'd only grab the strings, not the mark-up
  837. [18:57:45] <briansuda> in something like NOTES or others, i'd say the mark-up
  838. [18:58:00] <briansuda> otherwise they could have put the class inside or on the <b>
  839. [18:58:10] <briansuda> but they chose to wrap it explicitly
  840. [18:58:26] <briansuda> also, remember NOT to add spaces between class="value"
  841. [18:58:46] <briansuda> that would actually BREAK the drop-cap image test we made a few weeks ago
  842. [18:58:59] <mkaply> yeah, i don't add spaces.
  843. [19:05:17] <tantek> text content
  844. [19:05:26] <tantek> mkaply, these are really good questions you are asking
  845. [19:06:46] <tantek> could I ask you to go ahead and add them to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues ?
  846. [19:06:57] <tantek> don't worry if you are being redundant, I'll handle redundancies
  847. [19:07:10] <tantek> just capture them so I can make sure to put clarifications in the spec or FAQ
  848. [19:07:43] <tantek> e.g. re: using class="value", Do I grab the EXACT content of the value? Including the HTML? Or are values textContent as well?
  849. [19:08:06] <tantek> otherwise we end up with the clarifications stuck in IRC logs where others might not find them
  850. [19:08:26] <tantek> I want to make sure that the q&a are documented for implementers in general so we get better interop.
  851. [19:08:36] <tantek> thanks.
  852. [19:10:29] * BenWard (i=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-63423786be7ae8db) Quit ("Fades out again…")
  853. [19:10:56] * sreynen (n=sreynen@205.169.187.2) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  854. [19:12:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=19276 * MikeKaply * (+304) Issues -
  855. [19:21:55] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.82) has joined #microformats
  856. [19:21:55] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  857. [19:27:18] <mkaply> argh. eventful's microfomrats went backwards
  858. [19:27:44] <briansuda> do we have a contact over there?
  859. [19:28:43] <mkaply> I have one
  860. [19:29:52] <briansuda> ok.
  861. [19:30:05] <briansuda> did meetup.com ever get sorted out?
  862. [19:30:39] <briansuda> are they gearing up for the elections? or has the bubble passed them
  863. [19:31:53] <ianloic> *cough* validator *cough*
  864. [19:32:58] <briansuda> 28 errors!
  865. [19:33:35] <mkaply> what's weird is that their locations are OK, just not embedded in their vevents anymore
  866. [19:33:53] <mkaply> probably trying to make live clipboard work. What a waste
  867. [19:34:16] <briansuda> :)
  868. [19:34:29] <mkaply> Bastards That's exactly what they did
  869. [19:34:29] <briansuda> drop them an email
  870. [19:34:43] <mkaply> I did. The only vevent on their page is the dynamic live clipboard one which is half hearted
  871. [19:35:07] * mkaply takes eventful off his testing list
  872. [19:35:44] <briansuda> what about pownce events?
  873. [19:36:21] <mkaply> got a link?
  874. [19:36:26] * mkaply doesn't have a pownce account
  875. [19:37:02] <briansuda> http://pownce.com/everyone/
  876. [19:37:11] <briansuda> i need to find a specific event
  877. [19:37:30] * KevinMarks (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-ff181663bbbe8303) has joined #microformats
  878. [19:37:30] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs
  879. [19:38:57] <briansuda> http://pownce.com/archer7/notes/406139/
  880. [19:39:28] <briansuda> looks good in visual inspection, just no TZ
  881. [19:39:46] <briansuda> so i have no idea 8am where/when?
  882. [19:40:18] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19277 * ClayNewton * (+3) Why do we need a trade microformat? -
  883. [19:40:29] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19278 * ClayNewton * (-2) Example:' -
  884. [19:40:52] <mkaply> 8am? what do you mean
  885. [19:41:03] <mkaply> 20070818T80000
  886. [19:41:09] <mkaply> doh!
  887. [19:41:38] <mkaply> Weird. Yahoo took it as 8 AM
  888. [19:41:47] <mkaply> so did google
  889. [19:42:01] <mkaply> I'm impressed
  890. [19:42:13] <briansuda> yes, but 8am what timezone? certainly not 8am for me?
  891. [19:42:26] * Jvhun (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  892. [19:42:33] * briansuda remembers all that UTC 'Z' TZ stuff - not fun
  893. [19:42:47] <briansuda> without a Z it is not bound to any TZ
  894. [19:42:58] <briansuda> it either needs a Z so it is offset from UTC
  895. [19:43:06] <briansuda> or an offset -0800
  896. [19:43:21] <briansuda> or without anything, then (i think) it happens at 8am in every timezone?
  897. [19:43:55] <briansuda> like christmas, 20071225T000000 without Z or an offset it happens at that time in each TZ repectively
  898. [19:44:02] <briansuda> (which i guess isn't too bad)
  899. [19:44:14] <briansuda> pownce launched full of MFs
  900. [19:44:22] <briansuda> so you can add them on your test list
  901. [19:45:18] <mkaply> That's not valid though
  902. [19:45:19] <mkaply> 0070818T80000
  903. [19:45:23] <mkaply> ISO spec says
  904. [19:45:26] <mkaply> 0070818T080000
  905. [19:45:33] <mkaply> You have to have two digits for everything, right?
  906. [19:45:39] <mkaply> I'm normalizing that to 800000
  907. [19:46:16] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19279 * ClayNewton * (-4) See Also -
  908. [19:47:13] <mkaply> Does pownce have a form you fill out that created that invalid code?
  909. [19:47:27] <briansuda> ah, good catch, yes you do!
  910. [19:47:53] <mkaply> I can't really fix that. Unless someone can improve my regex
  911. [19:48:01] <briansuda> no, it is probably an output with the datemask, YYYY-MM-DD, H:i:s for 24 time, leading zero
  912. [19:48:03] <mkaply> var dateArray = string.match(/(\d\d\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:-?(\d\d)(?:[T ](\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d)(?:\.(\d+))?)?)?(?:([-+Z])(?:(\d\d)(?::?(\d\d))?)?)?)?)?)?/);
  913. [19:48:09] <briansuda> they probably just missed the leading zero!
  914. [19:48:12] <mfbot> [[trade-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-examples&diff=0&oldid=19280 * ClayNewton * (+5) See Also -
  915. [19:48:29] <briansuda> ah, great, drop a regex in here and we'll see how many leave screaming
  916. [19:48:39] <mkaply> that one makes me scream
  917. [19:48:47] <briansuda> trying doing it in XSLT!
  918. [19:48:51] <mkaply> takes an ISO date and parses it into pieces
  919. [19:49:13] <briansuda> i guess there is no 80 o'clock
  920. [19:49:38] <briansuda> but 10000 becomes an issue, is that missing a leading zero, or a trailing zero for seconds?
  921. [19:50:11] <briansuda> there is a BUGs email address
  922. [19:50:22] <briansuda> bugs@pownce.com
  923. [19:50:55] <briansuda> do you want to contact them, or me? or maybe tantek or ryanking can see someone online who works for them right now
  924. [19:51:04] <briansuda> kingryan that is...
  925. [19:53:14] <briansuda> also, some oxford folks contacted me about a hiccup in X2V for hcalendar. they are using TZID which no one else does, so my code was not complete
  926. [19:53:22] <briansuda> you might want to check it also, http://www.oucs.ox.ac.uk/oxitems/
  927. [19:54:19] <mkaply> do we know anyone at pownce
  928. [19:55:34] <mkaply> is there a use case?
  929. [19:55:59] <mkaply> sorry, a live example
  930. [19:56:46] * mefisto (n=mefisto|@85.254.221.107) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  931. [19:57:14] <briansuda> i do believe tantek and kingryan know one of the developers at Pownce i forget her name.
  932. [19:57:55] * WilleRaab (i=WilleRaa@89-253-85-3.customers.ownit.se) has joined #microformats
  933. [19:57:55] <jibot> WilleRaab is a developer of and lecturer on democracy methods and tools http://microformats.org/wiki/User:WilleRaab
  934. [19:58:10] <briansuda> it is listed at the first example here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-examples-in-wild
  935. [19:58:36] <briansuda> they sent me flat files to test with. the live ones are inside an RSS feed :) go Operate on that!
  936. [19:58:38] * tantek tries to catch up
  937. [19:59:48] <briansuda> we can file a bug about the pownce issue, or maybe someone is online that could be poked and fix it quicker?
  938. [20:00:07] <mkaply> ted is not at eventful.com
  939. [20:00:08] <tantek> note that lack of TZ is *ok*
  940. [20:00:15] <tantek> it means a "floating" time
  941. [20:00:16] <mkaply> I can operator on RSS feeds. Hah
  942. [20:00:23] <tantek> like "wake up at 8am" -
  943. [20:00:25] <mkaply> tantek: the problem is the missing leading 0
  944. [20:00:29] <tantek> is at 8am in all timezones
  945. [20:00:30] <tantek> oh ok
  946. [20:00:51] <tantek> note the problem under their entry in hcalendar-examples-in-wild
  947. [20:00:52] <mkaply> So I have no eventful.com contact anymore
  948. [20:01:10] <briansuda> ah, ted hober?
  949. [20:01:31] <briansuda> maybe just email him and ask him to get you incontact with his replacement
  950. [20:02:14] <mkaply> It was edward o'connor actually.
  951. [20:02:18] <mkaply> only contact I have
  952. [20:02:33] <mfbot> [[trade-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=trade-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19281 * ClayNewton * (+34) Property List -
  953. [20:04:33] <briansuda> maybe the ted i am thinking of works somewhere else?
  954. [20:04:59] <briansuda> nope, same person
  955. [20:05:06] <briansuda> http://twitter.com/hober
  956. [20:07:05] <mkaply> left eventful in may
  957. [20:08:27] <briansuda> that wasn't very curtious of him :)
  958. [20:08:40] <mkaply> At least he keeps his resume current so I can tell
  959. [20:08:47] <briansuda> doesn't he know we need to test that site!
  960. [20:09:11] <briansuda> maybe it wasn't a good ending and the Resume was updated out of spite?
  961. [20:10:31] <mkaply> perhaps. But I'll give him props for using hresume. And profile URLs even!
  962. [20:11:37] <briansuda> :)
  963. [20:11:53] <briansuda> does it say where he is now? linkedin?
  964. [20:12:16] <mkaply> Nope. Argh. He did his includes invalid and I don't detect them properly
  965. [20:12:29] <mkaply> you're not supposed to put the class you are including, right?
  966. [20:12:43] <mkaply> <object class="include fn n" data="#me"></object>
  967. [20:12:45] <mkaply> should be
  968. [20:12:49] <mkaply> <object class="include" data="#me"></object>
  969. [20:12:51] <briansuda> ah... i would say nope
  970. [20:12:59] <briansuda> i think the wiki has both
  971. [20:13:11] <briansuda> there was a big discussion about this, but nothing was decided
  972. [20:13:12] <mkaply> the problem is there's no good way to detect that there was no fn in the original node
  973. [20:13:36] <mkaply> because the class is there.
  974. [20:13:51] <briansuda> exactly, my reconning is that the OBJECT gets 'replaced' by what it reference, in his case it is assuming it is added as a child
  975. [20:14:17] <mkaply> yep.
  976. [20:14:26] <briansuda> it is like arguing "is NULL something, no it is NULL, but NULL is something, nothing"
  977. [20:14:34] <mkaply> I'll email him on that as well
  978. [20:14:38] <briansuda> cheers
  979. [20:25:07] <tantek> mkaply: please add to http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-issues
  980. [20:29:40] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=19282 * MikeKaply * (+312) Include-Pattern Issues -
  981. [20:38:37] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=19283 * Tantek * (+42) a few details
  982. [20:57:16] * SunWuKung (i=SunWuKun@S01060016cbc4c705.vc.shawcable.net) Quit ("--out")
  983. [20:59:58] * logan-koester is now known as logankoester
  984. [21:02:54] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  985. [21:05:54] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  986. [21:15:49] <mfbot> [[genealogy-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=genealogy-formats&diff=0&oldid=19284 * Bob Jonkman * (-14) GEDCOM _IS_ a format for genealogical data.
  987. [21:41:11] <mfbot> [[bookmarklets]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=bookmarklets&diff=0&oldid=19285 * Brian * (+86) added GEO bookmarklet
  988. [21:42:29] * briansuda (n=briansud@85-220-86-120.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is) Quit ()
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  993. [22:12:04] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  994. [22:12:04] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk and is at (-0000 GMT) and is author of "Using Microformats" for O'Reilly [http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/microformats/]
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  1001. [23:50:02] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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