IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  24. [07:43:40] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19288 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) typo - grammar
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  26. [07:53:56] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19289 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2159) Nouveaux Exemples - synchro
  27. [07:54:57] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19290 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Nouveaux Exemples -
  28. [08:04:34] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19291 * ChristopheDucamp * (+297) sync'd
  29. [08:22:50] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=19292 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2782) sync'd
  30. [08:30:27] <mfbot> [[vcard-suggestions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=19293 * ChristopheDucamp * (+200) Suggestions pour gérer les encodages - traduction
  31. [08:34:28] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-elevation-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-elevation-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+863) traduction
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  33. [08:40:29] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-elevation-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+2202) traduction
  34. [08:42:25] <mfbot> [[geo-elevation-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=19294 * ChristopheDucamp * (+44) Divers -
  35. [08:53:42] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19295 * ChristopheDucamp * (+793)
  36. [08:54:13] <mfbot> [[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19296 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
  37. [08:57:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19297 * ChristopheDucamp * (+11) Annuaires de téléphone - Attente réponse pour un voyage dconstruct
  38. [09:01:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19298 * ChristopheDucamp * (+132)
  39. [09:03:11] <mfbot> [[hcard-advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19299 * ChristopheDucamp * (+51) Banques -
  40. [09:05:17] <mfbot> [[bookmarklets-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=bookmarklets-fr&diff=0&oldid=19300 * ChristopheDucamp * (+102) Added geo (sync'd)
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  43. [09:33:59] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19301 * DenisDefreyne * (-136)
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  45. [09:36:33] <ddfreyne> How should I merge two pages? (downloads-brainstorming should be merged into appcast-brainstorming)
  46. [09:36:44] <ddfreyne> should I just move the contents from one page to another, then set up a redirect?
  47. [09:37:07] <ddfreyne> Or display a notice saying this page is obsolete, and that further work should be done on the other page?
  48. [09:38:48] <tantek> downloads seems like a simpler and more generic problem space than "appcast"
  49. [09:39:00] <tantek> appcast sounds very technology/usecase specific
  50. [09:39:24] <tantek> (i'd never even heard the term "appcast" before seeing it show up on the wiki)
  51. [09:39:31] <tantek> is appcast just a special case of download?
  52. [09:39:44] <ddfreyne> Hm. I had a discussion with brian suda two days ago, and he recommended that downloads should be merged into appcast, not the other way around
  53. [09:39:55] <tantek> really? i'm not sure that makes sense
  54. [09:39:56] <ddfreyne> i.e. a download is an appcast with only one hentry
  55. [09:40:12] <tantek> the term "appcast" is way too jargony
  56. [09:40:23] <tantek> whereas everyone knows what "downloads" are
  57. [09:40:30] <tantek> thus I'd say "download-" is preferred
  58. [09:40:51] <tantek> perhaps capture that discussion on the page(s)
  59. [09:40:52] <ddfreyne> Yeah, I agree
  60. [09:41:30] <ddfreyne> although "download" might be an odd name for a feed with multiple entries that includes release notes and enclosures
  61. [09:42:30] <ddfreyne> A download microformat would still be a hAtom feed with one or more hentries, right?
  62. [09:42:53] <ddfreyne> So it's just the name that changes from appcast to download?
  63. [09:45:50] * vant (n=vant@p3029-ipbf3304marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  64. [09:59:21] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19302 * DenisDefreyne * (+243) Adding "downloads" vs. "appcast" line
  65. [10:01:22] <ddfreyne> Hm, since appcasts are just a way of "versioning" downloads, they're not specific for application updates, but could also be used for, say, versioning textbooks
  66. [10:01:49] <ddfreyne> so the name "appcast" is not only jargony but also not general enough
  67. [10:05:57] <mfbot> [[vcard-errata-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata-fr&diff=0&oldid=19303 * ChristopheDucamp * (+87) sync'd
  68. [10:10:37] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  69. [10:12:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19304 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1958) synchro in progress
  70. [10:19:25] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19305 * DenisDefreyne * (+496) Adding issues: naming (appcast vs download) and dsa signatures
  71. [10:23:01] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19306 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3177) sync in progress
  72. [10:26:07] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19307 * ChristopheDucamp * (+68)
  73. [10:28:13] <mfbot> [[hcard-profile-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile-fr&diff=0&oldid=19308 * ChristopheDucamp * (+76) sync'd
  74. [10:36:40] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr&diff=0&oldid=19309 * ChristopheDucamp * (+39) adde {{geo-note}} for synchro
  75. [10:37:11] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr&diff=0&oldid=19310 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3) {{geo-note-fr}}
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  78. [11:13:33] <mfbot> [[Template:geo-note-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-note-fr&diff=0&oldid=19311 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7)
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  89. [13:01:59] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3186) traduction
  90. [13:02:54] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-fr&diff=0&oldid=19312 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Références Normatives - typo
  91. [13:07:11] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4369) traduction
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  94. [13:13:32] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=19313 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Discussions Exploratoires -
  95. [13:15:05] <ddfreyne> Does basing an appcast/downloads microformat off hAtom, which is a draft, cause any issues?
  96. [13:21:04] * illustir_ (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  97. [13:21:53] <mfbot> [[digital-signatures-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+6416) traduction
  98. [13:27:14] <mfbot> [[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=19314 * DenisDefreyne * (+128)
  99. [13:28:55] <mfbot> [[digital-signatures-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures-fr&diff=0&oldid=19315 * ChristopheDucamp * (+210) Détails sur le Manifeste et génération de sig -
  100. [13:29:36] <mfbot> [[digital-signatures-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures-fr&diff=0&oldid=19316 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Détails sur "Manifest" et génération de sig -
  101. [13:36:28] <mfbot> [[product-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/product-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1156) traduction
  102. [13:38:34] <mfbot> [[geo-waypoint-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-waypoint-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+40) #REDIRECT [[geo-extension-waypoints-fr]]
  103. [13:41:15] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19317 * DenisDefreyne * (+101) Issues -
  104. [13:41:26] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-waypoints-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-waypoints-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4221) à traduire
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  106. [13:50:37] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=19318 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6223) Best Buy Store Locater -
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  109. [13:56:03] <mfbot> [[operating-hours-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-fr&diff=0&oldid=19319 * ChristopheDucamp * (+114) Utilisation de RRULE dans le hCalendar -
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  124. [15:49:17] <tommorris> Anyone know if there's any reason not to have a VoteLinks example in the wild page?
  125. [15:49:49] <tommorris> (or section? - sorry, brain not working today due to hospitalisation on friday)
  126. [15:51:25] <tommorris> Also, might it not be a good idea to link the specifications pages to John Allsopp's "Know your [xx]" pages?
  127. [15:52:45] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19320 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3599) sync'd
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  130. [15:56:31] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19321 * ChristopheDucamp * (-11) Discussion et suggestions - typo
  131. [15:57:07] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19322 * ChristopheDucamp * (-6) Discussion et suggestions -
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  133. [15:59:43] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19323 * ChristopheDucamp * (+24) Problématiques - fixed link on hCard brainstorming : hCard représentative in french
  134. [16:05:04] <mfbot> [[voting-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=voting-examples&diff=0&oldid=19324 * TomMorris * (-104) removed link to redmonk.net ("VoteBack") since it's returning 500
  135. [16:05:10] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19325 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Le Problème -
  136. [16:10:36] * daggi (n=chrisada@82-45-160-216.cable.ubr05.hari.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ()
  137. [16:11:56] <mfbot> [[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=19326 * TomMorris * (+941) split references into norm/inform - added data from [[voting-examples]], and added an examples in the wild section with text from [[hatom]]
  138. [17:08:50] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19327 * ChristopheDucamp * (+235)
  139. [17:11:46] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19328 * ChristopheDucamp * (+129) Services listes d'amis supportant hCard+XFN - synchro in progress
  140. [17:14:02] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19329 * ChristopheDucamp * (-84) Services avec listes d'amis supportant XFN -
  141. [17:15:48] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19330 * ChristopheDucamp * (+308) Services supportant la consolidation de l'identité avec XFN rel="me" -
  142. [17:18:34] <mfbot> [[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19331 * ChristopheDucamp * (+26) Sync'd
  143. [17:23:20] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19332 * ChristopheDucamp * (-10)
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  157. [19:52:57] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19333 * DenisDefreyne * (+216) Clearing up the version string section and adding reference to shortVersionString
  158. [19:53:59] <ddfreyne> Sparkle with hAtom appcast support is looking quite good
  159. [19:54:51] * epeus (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  160. [19:56:08] <mfbot> [[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19334 * JoeAndrieu * (+1037) Added section on Standards, IP, and Transparency
  161. [19:59:41] <ddfreyne> http://stoneship.org/sparkle_with_hatom_framework.zip —  Sparkle framework with hAtom appast support. Very basic right now (no support for MD5 sums, DSA signatures or short version strings).
  162. [20:00:08] <ddfreyne> might be worth putting the source in svn somewhere
  163. [20:14:53] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) has joined #microformats
  164. [20:14:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  167. [20:33:01] <mfbot> [[need-for-digital-media-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=need-for-digital-media-microformats&diff=0&oldid=19335 * Brian * (+190) duplicate page, one needs deleting
  168. [20:34:02] <mfbot> [[The Need for Digital Media Microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=The_Need_for_Digital_Media_Microformats&diff=0&oldid=19336 * Brian * (+129) duplicate page
  169. [20:34:39] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
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  172. [20:35:23] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) has joined #microformats
  173. [20:35:25] <illustir> #openid
  174. [20:35:47] * SamRose (n=SamRose@c-71-197-16-217.hsd1.mi.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  175. [20:37:43] <ddfreyne> It seems like you only start discovering bugs after you've released something
  176. [20:39:39] <briansuda> ?
  177. [20:40:03] <ddfreyne> briansuda: I linked to a hAtom-supporting Sparkle 30 minutes ago, and I found some major crasher bugs :)
  178. [20:40:18] <briansuda> in Sparkle?
  179. [20:40:30] <ddfreyne> in my hAtom extensions for Sparkle
  180. [20:40:36] <briansuda> ah
  181. [20:41:00] <ddfreyne> I'll create a google-hosted project and put up the source I have so far
  182. [20:41:57] <ddfreyne> For some reason, the Create Project button is grayed out… hm.
  183. [20:42:40] <ddfreyne> Ah, must be broken in Safari 3
  184. [20:45:14] <briansuda> lots of things are broken in safari
  185. [20:45:18] <briansuda> and for safari
  186. [20:45:37] <ddfreyne> ah, nope, had to enter a description… wanted to delay writing a good description until later
  187. [20:45:42] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable081.152-201-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  188. [20:57:31] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  189. [20:57:56] <ddfreyne> Whew, that was a 10-minute commit…
  190. [20:58:36] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  191. [20:58:36] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  192. [21:00:20] <briansuda> alot of code, or just slow connection?
  193. [21:01:50] <ddfreyne> a lot of code (commited all of sparkle to google code)
  194. [21:07:56] <ddfreyne> http://hatom-sparkle.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ here it is. Interesting files are the HAFeed.* ones (they parse hAtom feeds) and SUAppcast.m, which has hAtom support added at the bottom of the file
  195. [21:08:14] <ddfreyne> eek, memleak
  196. [21:09:38] <ddfreyne> It converts the HTML (or XHTML) document to XML, so you can use XPath stuff on it
  197. [21:10:23] <briansuda> you can use XPath on XHTML
  198. [21:10:33] <ddfreyne> yes, but not on HTML
  199. [21:10:45] <briansuda> libHTML gives you well-formed HTML
  200. [21:11:06] <briansuda> or XHTML?
  201. [21:11:28] <ddfreyne> The NSXML stuff can parse HTML as well, even if it's not valid… it'll be converted internally to XHTML
  202. [21:12:04] <ddfreyne> (So it doesn't break on empty elements such as <hr>)
  203. [21:12:11] <briansuda> right
  204. [21:12:21] <briansuda> there is an XSLT for hAtom already
  205. [21:12:51] <ddfreyne> isn't that one that converts hAtom to Atom?
  206. [21:13:21] <ddfreyne> I haven't found an C/Obj-C Atom parser yet
  207. [21:14:47] <ddfreyne> Time to write a couple of hAtom appcasts and put them in svn
  208. [21:17:14] <illustir> is there already an hCard based avatar plugin for Wordpress?
  209. [21:19:16] <tantek> illustir not AFAIK
  210. [21:19:24] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
  211. [21:19:35] <tantek> it would be good start with an hCard based "about" page plugin for Wordpress
  212. [21:19:50] <illustir> okay, i got fed up with gravatar and thought it might be something worth building
  213. [21:19:53] <tantek> so that anyone with a Wordpress blog could have an easy to configure hCard of their own
  214. [21:19:58] <tantek> illustir, yes, it is
  215. [21:21:36] <illustir> i implemented a proof on my blog right now: http://alper.nl/dingen/2007/07/openid-een-robuuste-open-manier-van-single-sign-on/#comment-181
  216. [21:21:58] <illustir> images are fetched from the comment->url
  217. [21:23:48] <illustir> the about page is the one at /about/ ?
  218. [21:24:52] <briansuda> ddfreyne, see hg.microformats.org there is code there that will convert hAtom to Atom
  219. [21:25:32] <briansuda> it is pretty complete. There are discussions about how to generate IDs and such, but as for finding the data it what you need
  220. [21:28:29] <ddfreyne> Hm, that does mean HTML needs to be converted to XHTML first… although I don't think that's a problem
  221. [21:31:47] <briansuda> i just use TIDY before the XSLT
  222. [21:32:19] <briansuda> it solves all the problems with only creating minor ones, which involve REALLY poor mark-up
  223. [21:32:34] * ddfreyne nods
  224. [21:34:03] * ddfreyne prepares to merge appcast-* into downloads-*
  225. [21:35:41] <ddfreyne> Hm. I'm not entirely happy about merging these two pages
  226. [21:36:14] <ddfreyne> "downloads" is a much more general name, even a tad too general to my linking… appcasts are more like *versioned* downloads
  227. [21:36:59] <ddfreyne> on the other hand, the name "appcast" sucks too :)
  228. [21:39:09] <ddfreyne> I can't think of anything better than downloads though
  229. [21:40:10] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19337 * DenisDefreyne * (+4091) Merging appcast-brainstorming into downloads-brainstorming
  230. [21:40:11] <ddfreyne> ↑ like this?
  231. [21:40:31] <briansuda> hm... nothing here
  232. [21:40:54] <briansuda> enclosure metadata, or enclosure extentions
  233. [21:41:05] <briansuda> what does the Yahoo Media extentions to RSS called?
  234. [21:41:46] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19338 * DenisDefreyne * (-5938) Merging appcast-brainstorming into downloads-brainstorming
  235. [21:42:33] <ddfreyne> Haven't heard of that before… something like http://www.feedforall.com/mediarss.htm ?
  236. [21:44:22] <mfbot> [[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+1592) appcast-examples moved to downloads-examples
  237. [21:44:48] <mfbot> [[downloads-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-examples&diff=0&oldid=19339 * DenisDefreyne * (+8) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
  238. [21:45:19] <mfbot> [[appcast]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+67) appcast moved to downloads
  239. [21:45:50] <mfbot> [[downloads]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads&diff=0&oldid=19340 * DenisDefreyne * (+29) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
  240. [21:46:16] <mfbot> [[appcast-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-formats&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+1674) appcast-formats moved to downloads-formats
  241. [21:46:47] <mfbot> [[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19341 * DenisDefreyne * (+8) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
  242. [21:47:21] <ddfreyne> Hm. Better.
  243. [21:48:08] <mfbot> [[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19342 * DenisDefreyne * (-44) Redirecting appcast-brainstorming to downloads-brainstorming
  244. [21:48:21] <briansuda> yeah, the http://search.yahoo.com/mrss
  245. [21:48:42] <briansuda> you are basically trying to do the same, but with HASH and VERSION, instead of RUNTIME, ICON. ETC
  246. [21:48:50] <ddfreyne> Definitely worth checking out
  247. [21:49:39] <ddfreyne> awesome, the page mentions ace ventura
  248. [21:50:30] <ddfreyne> I'm currently using something like <p class="checksum">The <span class="type">MD5</span> sum of this thing is <span class="value">alksdfjklsafjlksajfdlkk</span>.</p>
  249. [21:50:58] <ddfreyne> type could be renamed to something more clear like algo or algorithm (media:hash has algo)
  250. [21:51:21] <briansuda> just document all of that on the wiki
  251. [21:51:37] <ddfreyne> I prefer the name "checksum" of "hash" though; I think it's more clear
  252. [21:53:19] <briansuda> does checksum has some sematics has HASH?
  253. [21:53:38] <briansuda> can't a checksum be checked, where a HASH is one-way? or i guess you can check both?
  254. [21:54:28] <ddfreyne> both are one-way I'd say
  255. [21:54:34] <ddfreyne> Although…  hm…
  256. [21:57:05] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19343 * DenisDefreyne * (+261) Adding reference to media:hash from Yahoo MRSS
  257. [21:57:53] <briansuda> it has been awhile, but i thought checksums has to do with CRC checking and byte 1's and 0's to keep it even or odd?
  258. [21:58:11] <mfbot> [[hresume-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=19344 * Teasle * (+124) New Examples -
  259. [21:58:18] <ddfreyne> Not sure whether the other stuff from Yahoo's MRSS is very useful…
  260. [21:59:10] <ddfreyne> a general description of checksum would be… a series of bits that make sure the original item hasn't been changed at the time the checksum was made
  261. [21:59:24] <ddfreyne> which is what hash functions like MD5 and SHA1 do as well
  262. [22:00:20] <briansuda> the Yahoo MRSS is the same sort of thing you are proposing, but for different media
  263. [22:00:34] <briansuda> it will interact with hAtom in the same way, so what do they call it?
  264. [22:00:44] <briansuda> you were looking for abetter name than downloads.
  265. [22:00:52] <mfbot> [[User:Teasle]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Teasle * Teasle * (+96)
  266. [22:01:49] <ddfreyne> Hm…  just "media" it seems
  267. [22:03:51] <ddfreyne> there's actually an important distinction to make between appcasts and other feeds… in an appcast, each feed entry relates to the same application, but a different version… while in a podcast, for example, entries stand alone… i.e. appcasts are "versioned" while other feeds usually aren't
  268. [22:04:21] <ddfreyne> I'm not sure how important the distinction is, but I think it's something to keep in mind
  269. [22:05:03] <briansuda> so in an 'appcast' you can't describe multiple applications?
  270. [22:05:10] <briansuda> or just in appcasts you have seen?
  271. [22:05:12] <ddfreyne> I just got the strange idea of having two-dimensional feeds… heh
  272. [22:05:24] <briansuda> enclose an hAtom?
  273. [22:05:33] <ddfreyne> All appcasts are only for a single app, a single OS, a single architecture, etc
  274. [22:06:03] <briansuda> is that just Sparkle, or is that an industry standards?
  275. [22:06:49] <ddfreyne> I wouldn't call appcasting an industry standard… but it's not just sparkle
  276. [22:07:19] <ddfreyne> It's not something I am very happy with, because allowing appcasts to have *multiple* apps/archs/OSes/whatever could be neat… but Sparkle would need a way to figure out which feed entries are relevant
  277. [22:07:20] <briansuda> ok, you might want to document that somewhere if you haven't already
  278. [22:07:28] <ddfreyne> I has
  279. [22:07:34] <ddfreyne> … have… stupid cats
  280. [22:07:58] <briansuda> understandable, otherwise you;d be downloading win apps on a mac, and PPC binaries on Intel, etc
  281. [22:08:17] <briansuda> i would say, that is where the "summary" of what the file is, is important
  282. [22:08:53] <ddfreyne> There's a Multi-* section on the downloads-brainstorming page that explains the problem a bit
  283. [22:09:18] <ddfreyne> Hm…  in what way would the summary be used?
  284. [22:10:02] <ddfreyne> that section is rather unclear… I should rewrite it
  285. [22:10:02] <briansuda> in the RSS, if it just said:
  286. [22:10:27] <briansuda> Update to Adobe Photoshop CS3 for Mac OS 10.4.10 (PPC)
  287. [22:10:38] <briansuda> then you say, doesn;'t apply to me
  288. [22:10:45] <briansuda> or you say, "ah, i need that!"
  289. [22:11:47] <ddfreyne> Well, Sparkle updates automatically… you click "check for updates", sparkle searches for updates, and then presents you an "install" button… so Sparkle would need to have a way to automatically figure out that "Adobe Photoshop CS3 for Mac OS 10.4.10 (PPC)" is the feed entry you want
  290. [22:12:11] <briansuda> ah, i didn't know there was an INSTALL button
  291. [22:12:25] <briansuda> the normal updater presents you with a list you check what you want to download
  292. [22:12:44] <ddfreyne> Sparkle can access the OS version, the architecture, and the application version… but it'll need to parse the feed to extract those details
  293. [22:12:53] <ddfreyne> Oh, just a sec, let me get a few screenshots
  294. [22:12:59] <ddfreyne> it'll explain a lot :)
  295. [22:14:36] <ddfreyne> 1) You select "check for updates"
  296. [22:14:40] <ddfreyne> 2) This window appears: http://stoneship.org/pub/sparkle_updater.png
  297. [22:15:08] <ddfreyne> 3) You click install — sparkle downloads the update, installs it, and presents a "update & restart application" window
  298. [22:15:37] <ddfreyne> (That's actually a Sparkle+hAtom screenshot)
  299. [22:16:02] <briansuda> right, but the second line could just as easily say...
  300. [22:16:18] <briansuda> for 1.0.4 for Windows...
  301. [22:16:24] <briansuda> then you say "skip this"
  302. [22:16:39] <briansuda> and over time the app learns... he has skipped every WINDOWS update.
  303. [22:17:02] <ddfreyne> That's not quite as easy to use
  304. [22:17:14] <briansuda> it doesn't get at the OS specifc stuff like, what version you have right now, or your OS
  305. [22:18:19] <ddfreyne> It should be possible to somehow make that process automatic again, though
  306. [22:19:07] <ddfreyne> Doing it manually is almost a step backwards… people are used to having Sparkle work automatically, and suddenly this "microformat" thing comes along and it's back to manual again… not good :)
  307. [22:19:10] <briansuda> what process?
  308. [22:19:32] <ddfreyne> the updating process…  not having to manually skip windows/PPC/whatever downloads
  309. [22:19:58] <briansuda> well, i guess that depends on the vendor. if they offer a MAC intel only hAtom feed
  310. [22:20:06] <briansuda> then you don;'t have to do anything
  311. [22:20:24] <briansuda> if they offer an "All apps we produce in all versions, plaforms, etc." feed, then yes
  312. [22:20:37] <ddfreyne> I think hAtom feed creators will provide a single-app/arch/OS feed anyway
  313. [22:20:45] <briansuda> you could also subscribe to a feed to an app you don't have
  314. [22:21:00] <briansuda> why, i'm not sure, but you could
  315. [22:21:12] <briansuda> then at the app level, is where the 'smarts' are
  316. [22:21:29] <briansuda> apps will win on better customer service
  317. [22:21:44] <briansuda> specs are best when they are dumb. let the end-apps be smart
  318. [22:22:04] <briansuda> because as smart as you try to make the spec, there will be dumb vendors
  319. [22:22:16] <briansuda> so don't rely on their feeds...
  320. [22:23:11] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-145-182.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  321. [22:24:43] <ddfreyne> Also…  it seems unlikely that Sparkle will get multi-app/arch/OS appcast support… it'd be a big change (I've been through the code) and it'd probably not be worth the effort… not to mention that my patch would have to make it
  322. [22:24:59] <ddfreyne> that's just sparkle-related though, of course
  323. [22:25:09] <briansuda> right
  324. [22:25:36] <briansuda> but you get the idea that the spec should be "dumb" and let the apps be smart?
  325. [22:25:41] <ddfreyne> yes
  326. [22:27:12] <ddfreyne> I think this multi-*-appcast discussion somehow always boils down to "don't"
  327. [22:28:03] <ddfreyne> Ideally, these multi-* appcasts would be as easy to use as any other appcast, but I can't see a way to make it that way
  328. [22:30:00] <ddfreyne> I believe the current downloads/appcast proposal is already quite good
  329. [22:30:38] <ddfreyne> no major flaws, gaping holes that I can see, etc
  330. [22:31:07] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  331. [22:31:19] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
  332. [22:31:47] <briansuda> i was thinking yesterday about VERSION
  333. [22:32:06] <briansuda> the semantics of version are the version of the microformat, not the enclosure
  334. [22:32:27] <briansuda> version = "Version of the format used for the object"
  335. [22:32:54] <briansuda> but we can talk about that
  336. [22:33:02] <ddfreyne> Can you link me to the list of attributes? I can't find it atm
  337. [22:33:23] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki/classes
  338. [22:33:33] <briansuda> i don't think this is the complete list
  339. [22:34:00] <ddfreyne> I was having a similar problem with DSA signatures: there's a "digital-signatures" page, but the signatures discussed there don't apply to enclosures
  340. [22:34:52] <briansuda> link>
  341. [22:34:54] <briansuda> ?
  342. [22:34:56] <briansuda> got it now
  343. [22:35:02] <ddfreyne> http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures
  344. [22:35:49] <briansuda> i don;t think i've ever seen that page, but i know what it is about
  345. [22:35:55] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  346. [22:35:57] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures&action=history
  347. [22:36:03] <briansuda> this history only has 2 editors
  348. [22:36:24] <ddfreyne> yeah…  and very little edits
  349. [22:36:29] <briansuda> on of the guys is implementing KEY in hCard using his PGP key, so i understand where the digital-signatures comes in
  350. [22:39:42] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@ACCE98F5.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  351. [22:40:15] <ddfreyne> not sure how that can be extended to include enclosures
  352. [22:40:39] <briansuda> digital-signatures?
  353. [22:40:44] <ddfreyne> yes
  354. [22:40:52] <briansuda> i won't worry about that page
  355. [22:41:53] <briansuda> first things first, start small and simple
  356. [22:42:03] <briansuda> itterate and extend later
  357. [22:42:32] <ddfreyne> I'd need something simple such as <span class="dsa-signature"> MC0CFBfeCa1JyW30nbkBwainOzrN6EQuAh=</span>
  358. [22:42:57] <briansuda> NEED?
  359. [22:43:01] <briansuda> or WANT
  360. [22:43:02] <ddfreyne> ha, no :)
  361. [22:43:13] <briansuda> and why not TYPE/VALUE
  362. [22:43:15] <ddfreyne> I personally wouldn't use DSA signatures for application updates, but I know at least one guy that uses them
  363. [22:43:36] <ddfreyne> well… I'd like to integrate signatures with hashes somehow…  they have a lot in common
  364. [22:43:57] <briansuda> we also have to focus on 80/20 not edge cases
  365. [22:44:03] <ddfreyne> Or I could just forget about these signatures and go with MD5 and SHA1 instead
  366. [22:44:15] <briansuda> what about UID
  367. [22:44:25] <briansuda> UID type=md5 value=uhjdwhu33eyh87
  368. [22:44:26] <ddfreyne> yeah…  that's one of the reasons why I haven't put much thought in DSA signatures
  369. [22:44:37] <briansuda> why not UID instead of HASH?
  370. [22:44:52] <briansuda> that is what they are unique identifiers
  371. [22:45:20] <ddfreyne> not necessarily 100% unique ;)
  372. [22:46:34] <ddfreyne> I'm not sure… I don't really like using UID instead of hash…
  373. [22:46:35] <briansuda> multiple versions hash to the same MD5?
  374. [22:47:00] <briansuda> it is best to use existing things when possible.
  375. [22:47:43] * tommorris (n=tom@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit ()
  376. [22:47:56] <briansuda> UID is also only unique at the page level. not the global level - it is very difficult to prevent collisions globally
  377. [22:48:05] <briansuda> or unique at the feed level
  378. [22:48:44] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-141-43.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  379. [22:48:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  380. [22:50:10] <ddfreyne> Yeah, I can see what you're thinking… but I'm not convinced
  381. [22:51:18] <briansuda> well, you should add it to the wiki and add why not as well
  382. [22:51:36] <briansuda> then everyone can see the discussion without having to dig through the IRC arc hives
  383. [22:51:43] <ddfreyne> good idea
  384. [22:52:18] <briansuda> you can put it as a suggestion, rejected XYZ, then we can discuss if XYZ is really good or bad
  385. [22:53:20] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19345 * DenisDefreyne * (+111)
  386. [22:58:33] * danja_ (n=danja@host240-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
  387. [22:58:53] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-145-182.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  388. [22:59:15] * briansuda heads home for some food
  389. [22:59:31] * ddfreyne is heading to bed soon
  390. [23:00:02] * briansuda wonders where ddfreyne is based
  391. [23:00:11] <ddfreyne> belgium
  392. [23:00:20] <briansuda> ah, +0200
  393. [23:00:50] <briansuda> were you at EuroOSCon06 in brussels?
  394. [23:01:16] <ddfreyne> No, I wasn't
  395. [23:01:36] * briansuda heads off
  396. [23:01:43] <ddfreyne> seeya
  397. [23:01:44] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit ()
  398. [23:02:00] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-152-210.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  399. [23:02:11] <mfbot> [[hash-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19346 * DenisDefreyne * (+613)
  400. [23:07:07] <mfbot> [[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19347 * DenisDefreyne * (+328) Added link to hatom-sparkle Google Code project
  401. [23:10:11] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-141-43.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  402. [23:10:18] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19348 * DenisDefreyne * (+32) Renaming appcast-* to downloads-*
  403. [23:11:41] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  404. [23:15:01] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-131-130.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  405. [23:15:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
  406. [23:17:44] <ddfreyne> Good, I'm off — g'night
  407. [23:18:00] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")
  408. [23:23:28] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-152-210.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  409. [23:28:04] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-140-24.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  410. [23:36:28] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-131-130.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  411. [23:59:08] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19349 * ChristopheDucamp * (+82) Discussion et suggestions -
  412. [23:59:29] <mfbot> [[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19350 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Discussion et suggestions -

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See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.