IRC Log for #microformats on 2007-08-05
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [07:43:40] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19288 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) typo - grammar
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- [07:53:56] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19289 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2159) Nouveaux Exemples - synchro
- [07:54:57] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild-fr&diff=0&oldid=19290 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Nouveaux Exemples -
- [08:04:34] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19291 * ChristopheDucamp * (+297) sync'd
- [08:22:50] <mfbot>
[[vcard-suggestions-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=19292 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2782) sync'd
- [08:30:27] <mfbot>
[[vcard-suggestions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=19293 * ChristopheDucamp * (+200) Suggestions pour gérer les encodages - traduction
- [08:34:28] <mfbot>
[[geo-extension-elevation-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-elevation-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+863) traduction
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[[geo-elevation-examples-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-elevation-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+2202) traduction
- [08:42:25] <mfbot>
[[geo-elevation-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-elevation-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=19294 * ChristopheDucamp * (+44) Divers -
- [08:53:42] <mfbot>
[[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19295 * ChristopheDucamp * (+793)
- [08:54:13] <mfbot>
[[geo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-fr&diff=0&oldid=19296 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0)
- [08:57:59] <mfbot>
[[hcard-advocacy-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19297 * ChristopheDucamp * (+11) Annuaires de téléphone - Attente réponse pour un voyage dconstruct
- [09:01:05] <mfbot>
[[hcard-advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19298 * ChristopheDucamp * (+132)
- [09:03:11] <mfbot>
[[hcard-advocacy-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-advocacy-fr&diff=0&oldid=19299 * ChristopheDucamp * (+51) Banques -
- [09:05:17] <mfbot>
[[bookmarklets-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=bookmarklets-fr&diff=0&oldid=19300 * ChristopheDucamp * (+102) Added geo (sync'd)
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- [09:33:59] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19301 * DenisDefreyne * (-136)
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- [09:36:33] <ddfreyne>
How should I merge two pages? (downloads-brainstorming should be merged into appcast-brainstorming)
- [09:36:44] <ddfreyne>
should I just move the contents from one page to another, then set up a redirect?
- [09:37:07] <ddfreyne>
Or display a notice saying this page is obsolete, and that further work should be done on the other page?
- [09:38:48] <tantek>
downloads seems like a simpler and more generic problem space than "appcast"
- [09:39:00] <tantek>
appcast sounds very technology/usecase specific
- [09:39:24] <tantek>
(i'd never even heard the term "appcast" before seeing it show up on the wiki)
- [09:39:31] <tantek>
is appcast just a special case of download?
- [09:39:44] <ddfreyne>
Hm. I had a discussion with brian suda two days ago, and he recommended that downloads should be merged into appcast, not the other way around
- [09:39:55] <tantek>
really? i'm not sure that makes sense
- [09:39:56] <ddfreyne>
i.e. a download is an appcast with only one hentry
- [09:40:12] <tantek>
the term "appcast" is way too jargony
- [09:40:23] <tantek>
whereas everyone knows what "downloads" are
- [09:40:30] <tantek>
thus I'd say "download-" is preferred
- [09:40:51] <tantek>
perhaps capture that discussion on the page(s)
- [09:40:52] <ddfreyne>
Yeah, I agree
- [09:41:30] <ddfreyne>
although "download" might be an odd name for a feed with multiple entries that includes release notes and enclosures
- [09:42:30] <ddfreyne>
A download microformat would still be a hAtom feed with one or more hentries, right?
- [09:42:53] <ddfreyne>
So it's just the name that changes from appcast to download?
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- [09:59:21] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19302 * DenisDefreyne * (+243) Adding "downloads" vs. "appcast" line
- [10:01:22] <ddfreyne>
Hm, since appcasts are just a way of "versioning" downloads, they're not specific for application updates, but could also be used for, say, versioning textbooks
- [10:01:49] <ddfreyne>
so the name "appcast" is not only jargony but also not general enough
- [10:05:57] <mfbot>
[[vcard-errata-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vcard-errata-fr&diff=0&oldid=19303 * ChristopheDucamp * (+87) sync'd
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[[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19304 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1958) synchro in progress
- [10:19:25] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19305 * DenisDefreyne * (+496) Adding issues: naming (appcast vs download) and dsa signatures
- [10:23:01] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19306 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3177) sync in progress
- [10:26:07] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=19307 * ChristopheDucamp * (+68)
- [10:28:13] <mfbot>
[[hcard-profile-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-profile-fr&diff=0&oldid=19308 * ChristopheDucamp * (+76) sync'd
- [10:36:40] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr&diff=0&oldid=19309 * ChristopheDucamp * (+39) adde {{geo-note}} for synchro
- [10:37:11] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-cheatsheet-fr&diff=0&oldid=19310 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3) {{geo-note-fr}}
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- [11:13:33] <mfbot>
[[Template:geo-note-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:geo-note-fr&diff=0&oldid=19311 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7)
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[[operating-hours-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3186) traduction
- [13:02:54] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-fr&diff=0&oldid=19312 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Références Normatives - typo
- [13:07:11] <mfbot>
[[operating-hours-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/operating-hours-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4369) traduction
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[[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=19313 * ChristopheDucamp * (-2) Discussions Exploratoires -
- [13:15:05] <ddfreyne>
Does basing an appcast/downloads microformat off hAtom, which is a draft, cause any issues?
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- [13:21:53] <mfbot>
[[digital-signatures-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+6416) traduction
- [13:27:14] <mfbot>
[[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=19314 * DenisDefreyne * (+128)
- [13:28:55] <mfbot>
[[digital-signatures-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures-fr&diff=0&oldid=19315 * ChristopheDucamp * (+210) Détails sur le Manifeste et génération de sig -
- [13:29:36] <mfbot>
[[digital-signatures-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures-fr&diff=0&oldid=19316 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Détails sur "Manifest" et génération de sig -
- [13:36:28] <mfbot>
[[product-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/product-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1156) traduction
- [13:38:34] <mfbot>
[[geo-waypoint-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-waypoint-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+40) #REDIRECT [[geo-extension-waypoints-fr]]
- [13:41:15] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19317 * DenisDefreyne * (+101) Issues -
- [13:41:26] <mfbot>
[[geo-extension-waypoints-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-extension-waypoints-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4221) à traduire
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[[operating-hours-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=19318 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6223) Best Buy Store Locater -
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[[operating-hours-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=operating-hours-fr&diff=0&oldid=19319 * ChristopheDucamp * (+114) Utilisation de RRULE dans le hCalendar -
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- [15:49:17] <tommorris>
Anyone know if there's any reason not to have a VoteLinks example in the wild page?
- [15:49:49] <tommorris>
(or section? - sorry, brain not working today due to hospitalisation on friday)
- [15:51:25] <tommorris>
Also, might it not be a good idea to link the specifications pages to John Allsopp's "Know your [xx]" pages?
- [15:52:45] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19320 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3599) sync'd
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[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19321 * ChristopheDucamp * (-11) Discussion et suggestions - typo
- [15:57:07] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19322 * ChristopheDucamp * (-6) Discussion et suggestions -
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- [15:59:43] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19323 * ChristopheDucamp * (+24) Problématiques - fixed link on hCard brainstorming : hCard représentative in french
- [16:05:04] <mfbot>
[[voting-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=voting-examples&diff=0&oldid=19324 * TomMorris * (-104) removed link to redmonk.net ("VoteBack") since it's returning 500
- [16:05:10] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19325 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Le Problème -
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- [16:11:56] <mfbot>
[[vote-links]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=vote-links&diff=0&oldid=19326 * TomMorris * (+941) split references into norm/inform - added data from [[voting-examples]], and added an examples in the wild section with text from [[hatom]]
- [17:08:50] <mfbot>
[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19327 * ChristopheDucamp * (+235)
- [17:11:46] <mfbot>
[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19328 * ChristopheDucamp * (+129) Services listes d'amis supportant hCard+XFN - synchro in progress
- [17:14:02] <mfbot>
[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19329 * ChristopheDucamp * (-84) Services avec listes d'amis supportant XFN -
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[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19330 * ChristopheDucamp * (+308) Services supportant la consolidation de l'identité avec XFN rel="me" -
- [17:18:34] <mfbot>
[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists-fr&diff=0&oldid=19331 * ChristopheDucamp * (+26) Sync'd
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[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles-fr&diff=0&oldid=19332 * ChristopheDucamp * (-10)
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- [19:52:57] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19333 * DenisDefreyne * (+216) Clearing up the version string section and adding reference to shortVersionString
- [19:53:59] <ddfreyne>
Sparkle with hAtom appcast support is looking quite good
- [19:54:51] * epeus (n=KevinMar@c-76-102-254-252.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:56:08] <mfbot>
[[governance-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=governance-issues&diff=0&oldid=19334 * JoeAndrieu * (+1037) Added section on Standards, IP, and Transparency
- [19:59:41] <ddfreyne>
http://stoneship.org/sparkle_with_hatom_framework.zip — Sparkle framework with hAtom appast support. Very basic right now (no support for MD5 sums, DSA signatures or short version strings).
- [20:00:08] <ddfreyne>
might be worth putting the source in svn somewhere
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- [20:33:01] <mfbot>
[[need-for-digital-media-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=need-for-digital-media-microformats&diff=0&oldid=19335 * Brian * (+190) duplicate page, one needs deleting
- [20:34:02] <mfbot>
[[The Need for Digital Media Microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=The_Need_for_Digital_Media_Microformats&diff=0&oldid=19336 * Brian * (+129) duplicate page
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- [20:35:25] <illustir>
#openid
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- [20:37:43] <ddfreyne>
It seems like you only start discovering bugs after you've released something
- [20:39:39] <briansuda>
?
- [20:40:03] <ddfreyne>
briansuda: I linked to a hAtom-supporting Sparkle 30 minutes ago, and I found some major crasher bugs :)
- [20:40:18] <briansuda>
in Sparkle?
- [20:40:30] <ddfreyne>
in my hAtom extensions for Sparkle
- [20:40:36] <briansuda>
ah
- [20:41:00] <ddfreyne>
I'll create a google-hosted project and put up the source I have so far
- [20:41:57] <ddfreyne>
For some reason, the Create Project button is grayed out… hm.
- [20:42:40] <ddfreyne>
Ah, must be broken in Safari 3
- [20:45:14] <briansuda>
lots of things are broken in safari
- [20:45:18] <briansuda>
and for safari
- [20:45:37] <ddfreyne>
ah, nope, had to enter a description… wanted to delay writing a good description until later
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- [20:57:56] <ddfreyne>
Whew, that was a 10-minute commit…
- [20:58:36] * tantek (n=tantek@CPE-65-28-102-35.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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- [21:00:20] <briansuda>
alot of code, or just slow connection?
- [21:01:50] <ddfreyne>
a lot of code (commited all of sparkle to google code)
- [21:07:56] <ddfreyne>
http://hatom-sparkle.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ here it is. Interesting files are the HAFeed.* ones (they parse hAtom feeds) and SUAppcast.m, which has hAtom support added at the bottom of the file
- [21:08:14] <ddfreyne>
eek, memleak
- [21:09:38] <ddfreyne>
It converts the HTML (or XHTML) document to XML, so you can use XPath stuff on it
- [21:10:23] <briansuda>
you can use XPath on XHTML
- [21:10:33] <ddfreyne>
yes, but not on HTML
- [21:10:45] <briansuda>
libHTML gives you well-formed HTML
- [21:11:06] <briansuda>
or XHTML?
- [21:11:28] <ddfreyne>
The NSXML stuff can parse HTML as well, even if it's not valid… it'll be converted internally to XHTML
- [21:12:04] <ddfreyne>
(So it doesn't break on empty elements such as <hr>)
- [21:12:11] <briansuda>
right
- [21:12:21] <briansuda>
there is an XSLT for hAtom already
- [21:12:51] <ddfreyne>
isn't that one that converts hAtom to Atom?
- [21:13:21] <ddfreyne>
I haven't found an C/Obj-C Atom parser yet
- [21:14:47] <ddfreyne>
Time to write a couple of hAtom appcasts and put them in svn
- [21:17:14] <illustir>
is there already an hCard based avatar plugin for Wordpress?
- [21:19:16] <tantek>
illustir not AFAIK
- [21:19:24] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit ("Schönen Tag noch!")
- [21:19:35] <tantek>
it would be good start with an hCard based "about" page plugin for Wordpress
- [21:19:50] <illustir>
okay, i got fed up with gravatar and thought it might be something worth building
- [21:19:53] <tantek>
so that anyone with a Wordpress blog could have an easy to configure hCard of their own
- [21:19:58] <tantek>
illustir, yes, it is
- [21:21:36] <illustir>
i implemented a proof on my blog right now: http://alper.nl/dingen/2007/07/openid-een-robuuste-open-manier-van-single-sign-on/#comment-181
- [21:21:58] <illustir>
images are fetched from the comment->url
- [21:23:48] <illustir>
the about page is the one at /about/ ?
- [21:24:52] <briansuda>
ddfreyne, see hg.microformats.org there is code there that will convert hAtom to Atom
- [21:25:32] <briansuda>
it is pretty complete. There are discussions about how to generate IDs and such, but as for finding the data it what you need
- [21:28:29] <ddfreyne>
Hm, that does mean HTML needs to be converted to XHTML first… although I don't think that's a problem
- [21:31:47] <briansuda>
i just use TIDY before the XSLT
- [21:32:19] <briansuda>
it solves all the problems with only creating minor ones, which involve REALLY poor mark-up
- [21:32:34] * ddfreyne nods
- [21:34:03] * ddfreyne prepares to merge appcast-* into downloads-*
- [21:35:41] <ddfreyne>
Hm. I'm not entirely happy about merging these two pages
- [21:36:14] <ddfreyne>
"downloads" is a much more general name, even a tad too general to my linking… appcasts are more like *versioned* downloads
- [21:36:59] <ddfreyne>
on the other hand, the name "appcast" sucks too :)
- [21:39:09] <ddfreyne>
I can't think of anything better than downloads though
- [21:40:10] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19337 * DenisDefreyne * (+4091) Merging appcast-brainstorming into downloads-brainstorming
- [21:40:11] <ddfreyne>
↑ like this?
- [21:40:31] <briansuda>
hm... nothing here
- [21:40:54] <briansuda>
enclosure metadata, or enclosure extentions
- [21:41:05] <briansuda>
what does the Yahoo Media extentions to RSS called?
- [21:41:46] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19338 * DenisDefreyne * (-5938) Merging appcast-brainstorming into downloads-brainstorming
- [21:42:33] <ddfreyne>
Haven't heard of that before… something like http://www.feedforall.com/mediarss.htm ?
- [21:44:22] <mfbot>
[[appcast-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-examples&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+1592) appcast-examples moved to downloads-examples
- [21:44:48] <mfbot>
[[downloads-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-examples&diff=0&oldid=19339 * DenisDefreyne * (+8) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
- [21:45:19] <mfbot>
[[appcast]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+67) appcast moved to downloads
- [21:45:50] <mfbot>
[[downloads]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads&diff=0&oldid=19340 * DenisDefreyne * (+29) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
- [21:46:16] <mfbot>
[[appcast-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-formats&diff=0&oldid=0 * DenisDefreyne * (+1674) appcast-formats moved to downloads-formats
- [21:46:47] <mfbot>
[[downloads-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-formats&diff=0&oldid=19341 * DenisDefreyne * (+8) Renaming appcast to downloads where appropriate
- [21:47:21] <ddfreyne>
Hm. Better.
- [21:48:08] <mfbot>
[[appcast-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=appcast-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19342 * DenisDefreyne * (-44) Redirecting appcast-brainstorming to downloads-brainstorming
- [21:48:21] <briansuda>
yeah, the http://search.yahoo.com/mrss
- [21:48:42] <briansuda>
you are basically trying to do the same, but with HASH and VERSION, instead of RUNTIME, ICON. ETC
- [21:48:50] <ddfreyne>
Definitely worth checking out
- [21:49:39] <ddfreyne>
awesome, the page mentions ace ventura
- [21:50:30] <ddfreyne>
I'm currently using something like <p class="checksum">The <span class="type">MD5</span> sum of this thing is <span class="value">alksdfjklsafjlksajfdlkk</span>.</p>
- [21:50:58] <ddfreyne>
type could be renamed to something more clear like algo or algorithm (media:hash has algo)
- [21:51:21] <briansuda>
just document all of that on the wiki
- [21:51:37] <ddfreyne>
I prefer the name "checksum" of "hash" though; I think it's more clear
- [21:53:19] <briansuda>
does checksum has some sematics has HASH?
- [21:53:38] <briansuda>
can't a checksum be checked, where a HASH is one-way? or i guess you can check both?
- [21:54:28] <ddfreyne>
both are one-way I'd say
- [21:54:34] <ddfreyne>
Although… hm…
- [21:57:05] <mfbot>
[[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=19343 * DenisDefreyne * (+261) Adding reference to media:hash from Yahoo MRSS
- [21:57:53] <briansuda>
it has been awhile, but i thought checksums has to do with CRC checking and byte 1's and 0's to keep it even or odd?
- [21:58:11] <mfbot>
[[hresume-examples-in-wild]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=19344 * Teasle * (+124) New Examples -
- [21:58:18] <ddfreyne>
Not sure whether the other stuff from Yahoo's MRSS is very useful…
- [21:59:10] <ddfreyne>
a general description of checksum would be… a series of bits that make sure the original item hasn't been changed at the time the checksum was made
- [21:59:24] <ddfreyne>
which is what hash functions like MD5 and SHA1 do as well
- [22:00:20] <briansuda>
the Yahoo MRSS is the same sort of thing you are proposing, but for different media
- [22:00:34] <briansuda>
it will interact with hAtom in the same way, so what do they call it?
- [22:00:44] <briansuda>
you were looking for abetter name than downloads.
- [22:00:52] <mfbot>
[[User:Teasle]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Teasle * Teasle * (+96)
- [22:01:49] <ddfreyne>
Hm… just "media" it seems
- [22:03:51] <ddfreyne>
there's actually an important distinction to make between appcasts and other feeds… in an appcast, each feed entry relates to the same application, but a different version… while in a podcast, for example, entries stand alone… i.e. appcasts are "versioned" while other feeds usually aren't
- [22:04:21] <ddfreyne>
I'm not sure how important the distinction is, but I think it's something to keep in mind
- [22:05:03] <briansuda>
so in an 'appcast' you can't describe multiple applications?
- [22:05:10] <briansuda>
or just in appcasts you have seen?
- [22:05:12] <ddfreyne>
I just got the strange idea of having two-dimensional feeds… heh
- [22:05:24] <briansuda>
enclose an hAtom?
- [22:05:33] <ddfreyne>
All appcasts are only for a single app, a single OS, a single architecture, etc
- [22:06:03] <briansuda>
is that just Sparkle, or is that an industry standards?
- [22:06:49] <ddfreyne>
I wouldn't call appcasting an industry standard… but it's not just sparkle
- [22:07:19] <ddfreyne>
It's not something I am very happy with, because allowing appcasts to have *multiple* apps/archs/OSes/whatever could be neat… but Sparkle would need a way to figure out which feed entries are relevant
- [22:07:20] <briansuda>
ok, you might want to document that somewhere if you haven't already
- [22:07:28] <ddfreyne>
I has
- [22:07:34] <ddfreyne>
… have… stupid cats
- [22:07:58] <briansuda>
understandable, otherwise you;d be downloading win apps on a mac, and PPC binaries on Intel, etc
- [22:08:17] <briansuda>
i would say, that is where the "summary" of what the file is, is important
- [22:08:53] <ddfreyne>
There's a Multi-* section on the downloads-brainstorming page that explains the problem a bit
- [22:09:18] <ddfreyne>
Hm… in what way would the summary be used?
- [22:10:02] <ddfreyne>
that section is rather unclear… I should rewrite it
- [22:10:02] <briansuda>
in the RSS, if it just said:
- [22:10:27] <briansuda>
Update to Adobe Photoshop CS3 for Mac OS 10.4.10 (PPC)
- [22:10:38] <briansuda>
then you say, doesn;'t apply to me
- [22:10:45] <briansuda>
or you say, "ah, i need that!"
- [22:11:47] <ddfreyne>
Well, Sparkle updates automatically… you click "check for updates", sparkle searches for updates, and then presents you an "install" button… so Sparkle would need to have a way to automatically figure out that "Adobe Photoshop CS3 for Mac OS 10.4.10 (PPC)" is the feed entry you want
- [22:12:11] <briansuda>
ah, i didn't know there was an INSTALL button
- [22:12:25] <briansuda>
the normal updater presents you with a list you check what you want to download
- [22:12:44] <ddfreyne>
Sparkle can access the OS version, the architecture, and the application version… but it'll need to parse the feed to extract those details
- [22:12:53] <ddfreyne>
Oh, just a sec, let me get a few screenshots
- [22:12:59] <ddfreyne>
it'll explain a lot :)
- [22:14:36] <ddfreyne>
1) You select "check for updates"
- [22:14:40] <ddfreyne>
2) This window appears: http://stoneship.org/pub/sparkle_updater.png
- [22:15:08] <ddfreyne>
3) You click install — sparkle downloads the update, installs it, and presents a "update & restart application" window
- [22:15:37] <ddfreyne>
(That's actually a Sparkle+hAtom screenshot)
- [22:16:02] <briansuda>
right, but the second line could just as easily say...
- [22:16:18] <briansuda>
for 1.0.4 for Windows...
- [22:16:24] <briansuda>
then you say "skip this"
- [22:16:39] <briansuda>
and over time the app learns... he has skipped every WINDOWS update.
- [22:17:02] <ddfreyne>
That's not quite as easy to use
- [22:17:14] <briansuda>
it doesn't get at the OS specifc stuff like, what version you have right now, or your OS
- [22:18:19] <ddfreyne>
It should be possible to somehow make that process automatic again, though
- [22:19:07] <ddfreyne>
Doing it manually is almost a step backwards… people are used to having Sparkle work automatically, and suddenly this "microformat" thing comes along and it's back to manual again… not good :)
- [22:19:10] <briansuda>
what process?
- [22:19:32] <ddfreyne>
the updating process… not having to manually skip windows/PPC/whatever downloads
- [22:19:58] <briansuda>
well, i guess that depends on the vendor. if they offer a MAC intel only hAtom feed
- [22:20:06] <briansuda>
then you don;'t have to do anything
- [22:20:24] <briansuda>
if they offer an "All apps we produce in all versions, plaforms, etc." feed, then yes
- [22:20:37] <ddfreyne>
I think hAtom feed creators will provide a single-app/arch/OS feed anyway
- [22:20:45] <briansuda>
you could also subscribe to a feed to an app you don't have
- [22:21:00] <briansuda>
why, i'm not sure, but you could
- [22:21:12] <briansuda>
then at the app level, is where the 'smarts' are
- [22:21:29] <briansuda>
apps will win on better customer service
- [22:21:44] <briansuda>
specs are best when they are dumb. let the end-apps be smart
- [22:22:04] <briansuda>
because as smart as you try to make the spec, there will be dumb vendors
- [22:22:16] <briansuda>
so don't rely on their feeds...
- [22:23:11] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-145-182.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:24:43] <ddfreyne>
Also… it seems unlikely that Sparkle will get multi-app/arch/OS appcast support… it'd be a big change (I've been through the code) and it'd probably not be worth the effort… not to mention that my patch would have to make it
- [22:24:59] <ddfreyne>
that's just sparkle-related though, of course
- [22:25:09] <briansuda>
right
- [22:25:36] <briansuda>
but you get the idea that the spec should be "dumb" and let the apps be smart?
- [22:25:41] <ddfreyne>
yes
- [22:27:12] <ddfreyne>
I think this multi-*-appcast discussion somehow always boils down to "don't"
- [22:28:03] <ddfreyne>
Ideally, these multi-* appcasts would be as easy to use as any other appcast, but I can't see a way to make it that way
- [22:30:00] <ddfreyne>
I believe the current downloads/appcast proposal is already quite good
- [22:30:38] <ddfreyne>
no major flaws, gaping holes that I can see, etc
- [22:31:07] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-122-197.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [22:31:19] * JMulder (n=me@ip4da10ac9.direct-adsl.nl) Quit ()
- [22:31:47] <briansuda>
i was thinking yesterday about VERSION
- [22:32:06] <briansuda>
the semantics of version are the version of the microformat, not the enclosure
- [22:32:27] <briansuda>
version = "Version of the format used for the object"
- [22:32:54] <briansuda>
but we can talk about that
- [22:33:02] <ddfreyne>
Can you link me to the list of attributes? I can't find it atm
- [22:33:23] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/classes
- [22:33:33] <briansuda>
i don't think this is the complete list
- [22:34:00] <ddfreyne>
I was having a similar problem with DSA signatures: there's a "digital-signatures" page, but the signatures discussed there don't apply to enclosures
- [22:34:52] <briansuda>
link>
- [22:34:54] <briansuda>
?
- [22:34:56] <briansuda>
got it now
- [22:35:02] <ddfreyne>
http://microformats.org/wiki/digital-signatures
- [22:35:49] <briansuda>
i don;t think i've ever seen that page, but i know what it is about
- [22:35:55] * illustir (n=alper@c51448e84.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
- [22:35:57] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki?title=digital-signatures&action=history
- [22:36:03] <briansuda>
this history only has 2 editors
- [22:36:24] <ddfreyne>
yeah… and very little edits
- [22:36:29] <briansuda>
on of the guys is implementing KEY in hCard using his PGP key, so i understand where the digital-signatures comes in
- [22:39:42] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@ACCE98F5.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:40:15] <ddfreyne>
not sure how that can be extended to include enclosures
- [22:40:39] <briansuda>
digital-signatures?
- [22:40:44] <ddfreyne>
yes
- [22:40:52] <briansuda>
i won't worry about that page
- [22:41:53] <briansuda>
first things first, start small and simple
- [22:42:03] <briansuda>
itterate and extend later
- [22:42:32] <ddfreyne>
I'd need something simple such as <span class="dsa-signature"> MC0CFBfeCa1JyW30nbkBwainOzrN6EQuAh=</span>
- [22:42:57] <briansuda>
NEED?
- [22:43:01] <briansuda>
or WANT
- [22:43:02] <ddfreyne>
ha, no :)
- [22:43:13] <briansuda>
and why not TYPE/VALUE
- [22:43:15] <ddfreyne>
I personally wouldn't use DSA signatures for application updates, but I know at least one guy that uses them
- [22:43:36] <ddfreyne>
well… I'd like to integrate signatures with hashes somehow… they have a lot in common
- [22:43:57] <briansuda>
we also have to focus on 80/20 not edge cases
- [22:44:03] <ddfreyne>
Or I could just forget about these signatures and go with MD5 and SHA1 instead
- [22:44:15] <briansuda>
what about UID
- [22:44:25] <briansuda>
UID type=md5 value=uhjdwhu33eyh87
- [22:44:26] <ddfreyne>
yeah… that's one of the reasons why I haven't put much thought in DSA signatures
- [22:44:37] <briansuda>
why not UID instead of HASH?
- [22:44:52] <briansuda>
that is what they are unique identifiers
- [22:45:20] <ddfreyne>
not necessarily 100% unique ;)
- [22:46:34] <ddfreyne>
I'm not sure… I don't really like using UID instead of hash…
- [22:46:35] <briansuda>
multiple versions hash to the same MD5?
- [22:47:00] <briansuda>
it is best to use existing things when possible.
- [22:47:43] * tommorris (n=tom@i-83-67-98-32.freedom2surf.net) Quit ()
- [22:47:56] <briansuda>
UID is also only unique at the page level. not the global level - it is very difficult to prevent collisions globally
- [22:48:05] <briansuda>
or unique at the feed level
- [22:48:44] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-141-43.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:48:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
- [22:50:10] <ddfreyne>
Yeah, I can see what you're thinking… but I'm not convinced
- [22:51:18] <briansuda>
well, you should add it to the wiki and add why not as well
- [22:51:36] <briansuda>
then everyone can see the discussion without having to dig through the IRC arc hives
- [22:51:43] <ddfreyne>
good idea
- [22:52:18] <briansuda>
you can put it as a suggestion, rejected XYZ, then we can discuss if XYZ is really good or bad
- [22:53:20] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19345 * DenisDefreyne * (+111)
- [22:58:33] * danja_ (n=danja@host240-220-static.104-80-b.business.telecomitalia.it) Quit ()
- [22:58:53] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-145-182.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [22:59:15] * briansuda heads home for some food
- [22:59:31] * ddfreyne is heading to bed soon
- [23:00:02] * briansuda wonders where ddfreyne is based
- [23:00:11] <ddfreyne>
belgium
- [23:00:20] <briansuda>
ah, +0200
- [23:00:50] <briansuda>
were you at EuroOSCon06 in brussels?
- [23:01:16] <ddfreyne>
No, I wasn't
- [23:01:36] * briansuda heads off
- [23:01:43] <ddfreyne>
seeya
- [23:01:44] * briansuda (n=briansud@82.221.34.106) Quit ()
- [23:02:00] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-152-210.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:02:11] <mfbot>
[[hash-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19346 * DenisDefreyne * (+613)
- [23:07:07] <mfbot>
[[downloads-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=downloads-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=19347 * DenisDefreyne * (+328) Added link to hatom-sparkle Google Code project
- [23:10:11] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-141-43.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [23:10:18] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=19348 * DenisDefreyne * (+32) Renaming appcast-* to downloads-*
- [23:11:41] * julianstahnke (n=julianst@last.fm/staff/wurstkind) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
- [23:15:01] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-131-130.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:15:01] * ChanServ sets mode +o sreynen
- [23:17:44] <ddfreyne>
Good, I'm off — g'night
- [23:18:00] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) Quit ("kthxbai")
- [23:23:28] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-152-210.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:28:04] * sreynen_ (n=sreynen@71-208-140-24.hlrn.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:36:28] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-208-131-130.hlrn.qwest.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [23:59:08] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19349 * ChristopheDucamp * (+82) Discussion et suggestions -
- [23:59:29] <mfbot>
[[social-network-portability-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=social-network-portability-fr&diff=0&oldid=19350 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Discussion et suggestions -
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