IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  3. [00:19:30] <jibot> SignpostMarv is a WordPress, Second Life and OpenID geek
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  5. [00:25:02] <mfbot> [[haudio-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=haudio-issues&diff=0&oldid=25603 * WebOrganics * (+246) 2008 -
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  8. [00:27:01] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  22. [01:01:10] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  27. [01:30:49] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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  32. [02:05:28] <jibot> SignpostMarv is a WordPress, Second Life and OpenID geek
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  56. [05:12:43] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  68. [07:08:56] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  73. [07:18:43] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  85. [08:58:30] <mfbot> [[haudio-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=haudio-issues&diff=0&oldid=25604 * AndyMabbett * (+1) bullet
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  88. [09:01:22] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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  91. [09:04:20] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  99. [10:47:30] <jibot> julianstahnke is a German front-end dev for Last.fm and lives in London and wants a play button next to every mentioning of an audio track on the internet
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  103. [11:42:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  107. [12:43:28] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  112. [13:17:06] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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  115. [13:17:10] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
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  117. [13:36:03] <mfbot> [[advocacy-email-samples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy-email-samples&diff=0&oldid=25605 * ThomShannon * (+812)
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  126. [14:59:41] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  128. [15:11:40] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  132. [15:47:44] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-strawman&diff=0&oldid=25606 * WebOrganics * (-382) /*Use at ref to id */
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  137. [15:55:45] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  138. [16:08:34] <mfbot> [[User:ThomShannon]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:ThomShannon * ThomShannon * (+27)
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  140. [16:12:30] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-strawman]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-strawman&diff=0&oldid=25607 * AndyMabbett * (+26) Use <code>@</code> to Reffernce Id's - typos & fmt
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  143. [16:13:01] <mfbot> [[User:ThomShannon]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:ThomShannon&diff=0&oldid=25608 * ThomShannon * (+76)
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  158. [17:28:03] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25609 * Ser * (+41)
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  162. [17:35:00] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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  165. [17:55:03] <e_s_p> Howdy all
  166. [17:55:32] <e_s_p> So, are "n" and "fn" _both_ required for an hcard?
  167. [17:56:16] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25610 * Tantek * (-41) Reverted edit of Ser, changed back to last version by Tantek
  168. [17:56:44] <e_s_p> OK, cool, seem to have got it working
  169. [17:57:00] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Ser" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  170. [17:57:27] <tantek> e_s_p see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List
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  173. [18:17:49] <gl_> hello. continuing on my comments on fn yesterday: the current meaning of "fn" is "formatted name", i.e. the name in display format. That said, in some display cases like HTML table representation <tr><td>[first name]</td><td>[last name]</td></tr>, there is no proper why to use "fn" without hiding information. This is why I think "fn" is more about serialized/printed format, than display format. What are people thoughts on this?
  174. [18:18:52] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  175. [18:19:28] <gl_> I meant in: <tr><td>[first name]</td><td>[last name]</td><td>[phone number]</td></tr>
  176. [18:21:16] <hober> gl_: <tr class="n"><td class="given-name">...</td><td class="family-name">...</td>...</tr>
  177. [18:21:31] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)")
  178. [18:21:50] <gl_> but isn't fn required?
  179. [18:26:36] <gl_> see this hCard in table example http://www.bo.ingv.it/contents/INGV-Bologna/Staff.html where part of the content (given-name) had to be duplicated, one copy being hidden.
  180. [18:29:51] <mkaply> gl_: that's an interesting problem. That is one of the reasons there is thought being given to inferring fn frno n
  181. [18:30:16] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
  182. [18:30:16] <jibot> finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
  183. [18:30:32] <mkaply> gl_: I'm trying to think if there is a clever way to do what you want...
  184. [18:30:50] <mkaply> When surname and name are separated in a table with surname first, that does present a difficult problem
  185. [18:31:29] <gl_> yes, inferring fn from n would make sense, but keep in mind that in my view fn was invented precisely b/c reconstructing a name as printed on a letter label is not easy from a tokenized name.
  186. [18:32:13] <mkaply> but even so, your names are reversed, correct? Shouldn't you have given-name before surname in your case (so fn is correct)
  187. [18:32:16] <mkaply> Or is that a cultural thing?
  188. [18:32:33] <mkaply> fn would only be inferred in cases where there was no fn
  189. [18:32:50] <mkaply> Actually, there is a way to do this without hiding information.
  190. [18:33:56] <mkaply> give me a minute.
  191. [18:35:00] <gl_> reconstructing fn from n is locale-specific. In an international company having both Japanese and US employees, there would be one table for all people,with for instance first name in first td and last name in second td, but the fn for japanese would be concat(last name, " ", first name) while the fn for US employees would be the reverse. At least IMHO.
  192. [18:38:13] <mkaply> The problem with my idea is that it requires IDs for each element. But here it is
  193. [18:38:19] <mkaply> <TR class="vcard">
  194. [18:38:19] <mkaply> <TD class="fn">
  195. [18:38:19] <mkaply> <a href="#surname" class="include"></a> <SPAN class="family-name">Kaply</SPAN>
  196. [18:38:19] <mkaply> </TD><TD id="surname">Michael</TD><TD class="title"> Technologist </TD>
  197. [18:38:19] <mkaply> <TD class="organization-unit"> <SPAN lang="it">AMM</SPAN> </TD>
  198. [18:38:20] <mkaply> <TD class="tel"><SPAN class="value">486</SPAN></TD>
  199. [18:38:22] <mkaply> <TD class="org"><A class="include" href="#k"/></TD>
  200. [18:38:26] <mkaply> <TD class="extra"><A class="include" href="#j"/></TD>
  201. [18:38:28] <mkaply> </TR>
  202. [18:39:02] <mkaply> actually, there is another way
  203. [18:39:52] <mkaply> never mind. My other way won't work
  204. [18:40:41] <mkaply> That's my best work up there. The biggest problem is the unique ID for each surname (of course that could be generated)
  205. [18:42:01] <gl_> thank you mkaply. I think this is satisfactory if it is machine generated.
  206. [18:42:58] <mkaply> I think you should post your scenario to the hcard-issues page
  207. [18:44:33] <gl_> ok will do.
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  212. [19:01:56] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25611 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+571) Added FN required issue in hCard in HTML tables
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  215. [19:05:15] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  216. [19:07:08] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-strawman]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-strawman&diff=0&oldid=25612 * WebOrganics * (+984) Use a Class Create method -
  217. [19:09:25] <tantek> mkaply, gl_ - the problem of putting hCards into a table like that has been brought up before, and I forget if I documented a proposed solution previously or not (perhaps I mentioned it in IRC or email but forgot to add it to the wiki)
  218. [19:09:56] <tantek> rather than using the include-pattern, it may be easier/simpler to solve this with two new "implied" rules for hCard
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  220. [19:09:58] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
  221. [19:10:31] <tantek> first there is the problem of not having any one element that you can markup, nor a place to add an element to markup, for the "fn", when the given-name and family-name are in separate table columns
  222. [19:11:20] <tantek> and second, there is the problem of not having any one element to put the "n" grouping class name on to contain the "given-name" and "family-name" and other structured name components.
  223. [19:11:43] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  224. [19:11:57] <tantek> given that there can only be one "n" and "fn" per hCard, this is solvable by the following two new implied rules (which may help simplify other markup as well)
  225. [19:12:25] * finke_ (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  226. [19:12:38] <tantek> first, if there is no "n" property, yet there is at least one "n" sub-property, the "n" property is implied from the "n" sub-properties that are present
  227. [19:13:36] <tantek> second, if there is no "fn" property, but there is an "n" property (perhaps implied from the previous rule), then we imply an "fn" property based on some canonical ordering of "n" subproperties concatenated together, e.g start with "given-name" + "additional-name(s)" + "family-name".
  228. [19:14:27] <gl_> yes, this will have a Western bias, but I agree is better than the include solution.
  229. [19:14:33] <tantek> that can be a general canonicalization, and then as research determines that specific languages/cultures have other canonicalizations of formatted name from structured name componenets, we can introduce "lang" attribute based cases
  230. [19:15:27] <gl_> yes, that would address the lang based case
  231. [19:15:57] <gl_> I was wondering if there has been any discussion of using a different pattern than class names for HTML table? for instance, using TH and axis?
  232. [19:16:08] <tantek> e.g. for an hCard that on an element whose language is Japanese (indicated either by lang="ja" on the element, or its ancestors, or the document, or the HTTP header, etc.), could canonicalize the "fn" as "family-name"+"given-name" (I think I am getting that correct, but I am not an i18n expert so this is just an example that should be double-checked by someone familiar with Japanese name formatting conventions)
  233. [19:16:37] <gl_> yes, this is correct for Japanese I believe
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  235. [19:17:25] <tantek> gl_, re: additional ways to markup for HTML Tables, yes, we developed a technique in early 2005 (predating microformats.org) which has been implemented in X2V for almost 3 years now using the headers and axis attributes
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  240. [19:17:43] <tantek> it is effectively part of the spec(s), and I am just behind on documenting it as such
  241. [19:17:50] <tantek> it is documented here for now: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_event_calendars
  242. [19:18:07] <tantek> and the conference hCalendar generator creates hCalendars that use these techniques
  243. [19:19:03] <tantek> the aforementioned conference schedule creator: http://dmitry.baranovskiy.com/work/csc/
  244. [19:19:37] <gl_> thanks for the pointer - I've been researching uf and tables and never found that one!
  245. [19:21:00] <mkaply> but there are no parsers that support these yet.
  246. [19:23:11] <gl_> it seems to me that there is a general pattern that would be required for a uf to be easily projected in a tabular form i.e. that if a property has subproperty, and one of the subproperties is present, then the parent property does not have to be marked.
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  252. [19:32:54] <kingryan> mkaply: no parsers that support what? tabular calendars?
  253. [19:33:06] <mkaply> No, the implied fn stuff
  254. [19:33:27] <mfbot> [[poshformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=poshformats&diff=0&oldid=25613 * SriramNarayan * (+54) known poshformats -
  255. [19:33:33] <kingryan> ah, ok
  256. [19:57:44] <mfbot> [[User talk:SriramNarayan]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:SriramNarayan * AndyMabbett * (+72) Welcome!
  257. [20:16:43] <tantek> mkaply, yes the two new rules for implied n and implied fn above are both still "new" (proposed sometime in the past year I think) and not yet part of any implementation, hence I explicitly labeled them "new".
  258. [20:20:39] <tantek> gl_, I have thought about the general pattern potential as well, but before generalizing like that, we need to get some experience with how well it works for a microformat or two (or three).
  259. [20:20:46] <tantek> (for applying to tabular markup)
  260. [20:21:08] <tantek> premature generalization is the root of all excessive stack depths?
  261. [20:22:23] <gl_> I agree we have to be careful
  262. [20:23:53] <gl_> recently, I had saw an example of a similar issue than the one with fn: how to represent vevent in a table that splits the date and the time in two columns - can't find the link right now though.
  263. [20:24:18] <tantek> the best way to do that is to just markup the more precise of the two (the time) with the abbr pattern
  264. [20:24:35] <tantek> treating the time as an abbreviation for the fully qualified date time, timezone etc.
  265. [20:25:30] <gl_> true, but that wouldn't work if we want to use TH/axis
  266. [20:25:31] <tantek> and yeah, about being careful, I have *a lot* of experience with premature generalization, from work on OpenDoc, to W3C specs etc., and have certainly watched a lot of premature generalization happen in many specs, data formats, and code bases.
  267. [20:25:37] <tantek> premature generalization wastes *a lot* of time.
  268. [20:25:54] <tantek> gl_ why wouldn't that work?
  269. [20:26:07] <tantek> in essence you treat the date column as purely display
  270. [20:27:08] <gl_> well, in my understanding, I can markup individual td content with abbr, but I can't markup th with abbr
  271. [20:28:36] <gl_> I mean, I have date and time split up in two columns, I'm forced to individually tag each row, instead of just saying: this col is date, this col is time, and have an implied datetime.
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  273. [20:34:39] <csarven> gl
  274. [20:35:00] <csarven> gl_ is this a presentation or a structure limitation you have?
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  277. [20:50:28] <gl_> csarven - I will find my example again, try the solutions suggested here first and will get back with a precise desc of the issues, if any.
  278. [20:50:52] <tantek> gl_, right, what I'm saying is that you would mark up each time cell with a nested abbr class="dtstart" for example
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  285. [21:05:04] <jibot> finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
  286. [21:05:23] <mfbot> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=existing-rel-values&diff=0&oldid=25614 * AndyMabbett * (+249) unspecified - more precise URL; cite
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  295. [21:24:58] <mfbot> [[abbr-design-pattern-alternatives]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=abbr-design-pattern-alternatives&diff=0&oldid=25615 * AndyMabbett * (+59) Valid HTML4 - span with data prefix
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  298. [21:35:14] <mfbot> [[abbr-design-pattern-alternatives]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=abbr-design-pattern-alternatives&diff=0&oldid=25616 * AndyMabbett * (+341) Valid HTML4 - more on "data:" prefix
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  301. [22:25:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  305. [23:13:03] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=25617 * Tantek * (+317) Cite URLs to answer questions - added JimboJW's good blog post on the subject
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  309. [23:27:15] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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