IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-02-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:31] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@79.144.91.147) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  2. [00:02:38] * rebel_leader (n=Horst@X70f6.x.pppool.de) Quit (Client Quit)
  3. [00:11:10] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  4. [00:11:10] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  5. [00:16:38] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  6. [00:16:38] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  7. [00:17:17] * mkaply (n=mkaply@user-12lml8q.cable.mindspring.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  8. [00:18:46] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25557 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+665) 2007 -
  9. [00:19:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25558 * Guillaume Lebleu * (-665) removed issue from 2007 -
  10. [00:20:33] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25559 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+666) Added issue to 2008 -
  11. [00:27:12] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  12. [00:37:02] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
  13. [00:41:26] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  14. [00:41:26] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  15. [00:47:10] <mfbot> [[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25560 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+69) Sympathetic to the Cause -
  16. [00:49:21] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-user-profile-authoring * Tantek * (+220) stub
  17. [00:49:57] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profile]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profile * Tantek * (+44)
  18. [00:50:03] <mfbot> [[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=25561 * Tantek * (+14) change from hCard authoring to a more specific how to page for hCard user profiles
  19. [00:52:47] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) has joined #microformats
  20. [00:52:47] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
  21. [00:59:48] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  22. [00:59:48] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  23. [00:59:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  24. [00:59:52] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-7f41a64404a2096c) Quit ()
  25. [01:02:20] <tantek> noticing that both Operator and the Safari microformats plugin doesn't appear to treat nested hCards nested in other hCards as opaque
  26. [01:02:49] <tantek> anyone seen mkaply or the Safari microformats plugin author anytime recently?
  27. [01:06:05] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  28. [01:09:14] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  29. [01:42:15] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) Quit ()
  30. [01:51:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-rfc2426]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-rfc2426&diff=0&oldid=25562 * Tantek * (+224) minor fix to 3.5.4 AGENT Type Definition Example 2, remove unnecessary "n" property, note hCard is valid due to implied N rule. prefix "Example" headings w prop name for better permalinking
  31. [02:05:36] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=25563 * Tantek * (+1249) add explicit note about properties inside nested hCards only applying to the nested hCards, not any containing hCards, similarly nested hCalendar, hReview, xFolk. not finding nested hCard properties
  32. [02:07:45] <tantek> note that this "opacity" parsing rule has been implied for a very long time by the examples documenting the AGENT property, so this is not a new rule.
  33. [02:07:59] <tantek> however it should have been documented explicitly in hCard parsing
  34. [02:08:07] <tantek> and now it has been: new sections: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#nested_hCards and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#not_finding_nested_hCard_properties
  35. [02:17:12] <hober> just to quickly clarify, the opacity parsing rule applies to microformat X with regards to nested instances of X
  36. [02:17:34] <hober> (as opposed to nested instances of any, even future, microformat)
  37. [02:28:04] <mfbot> [[hCard-XFN-supporting-friends-lists]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard-XFN-supporting-friends-lists * Tantek * (+49)
  38. [02:30:25] <mfbot> [[hCard XFN supporting friends lists]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard_XFN_supporting_friends_lists * Tantek * (+48)
  39. [02:30:46] <mfbot> [[hCard supporting user profiles]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard_supporting_user_profiles * Tantek * (+43)
  40. [02:32:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25564 * Tantek * (+2063) expanded quite a bit with specific notes from experience with social network implementers
  41. [02:53:30] * calcnerd256 (n=chatzill@wsip-70-164-66-162.ok.ok.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [02:53:52] <calcnerd256> hello
  43. [02:53:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25565 * Tantek * (+90) mapping community site friends to specific link
  44. [02:56:42] * Zarabado1 (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  45. [02:59:46] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  46. [03:45:49] * calcnerd256 (n=chatzill@wsip-70-164-66-162.ok.ok.cox.net) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]")
  47. [03:55:52] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  48. [04:19:13] * sjackson (n=sjackson@12.145.154.226) has joined #microformats
  49. [04:19:48] * sjackson (n=sjackson@12.145.154.226) Quit (Client Quit)
  50. [04:20:49] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ("http://www.csarven.ca/")
  51. [04:29:39] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  52. [04:37:54] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  53. [04:39:04] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  54. [04:48:48] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit ("Leaving.")
  55. [04:50:15] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  56. [05:22:46] * danbri (n=danbri@c-67-188-40-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  57. [05:22:46] <jibot> danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
  58. [05:52:52] * finke (n=cfinke@12.145.154.226) has joined #microformats
  59. [05:56:34] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25566 * CFinke * (+40)
  60. [06:00:00] <mfbot> [[User:CFinke]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:CFinke * CFinke * (+72)
  61. [06:03:30] * finke is now known as Finke
  62. [06:07:04] <Finke> ?def Finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
  63. [06:07:04] <jibot> Finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
  64. [06:07:27] * Finke (n=cfinke@12.145.154.226) has left #microformats
  65. [06:07:34] * Finke (n=cfinke@12.145.154.226) has joined #microformats
  66. [06:11:11] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  67. [06:20:10] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  68. [06:26:18] * Finke (n=cfinke@12.145.154.226) Quit ()
  69. [06:26:56] * juvabien_ (n=juvabien@gre92-3-81-56-50-45.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  70. [06:45:07] * juvabien_ (n=juvabien@gre92-3-81-56-50-45.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  71. [07:10:03] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  72. [07:20:02] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  73. [07:35:22] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  74. [08:00:30] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) has joined #microformats
  75. [08:17:35] * iand (n=iand@213.205.208.200) has joined #microformats
  76. [08:17:36] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  77. [08:59:00] * iand (n=iand@213.205.208.200) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  78. [08:59:10] * ian1 (n=iand@213.205.239.212) has joined #microformats
  79. [08:59:20] * ian1 is now known as iand
  80. [09:00:44] * pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p5B126183.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  81. [09:05:50] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  82. [09:05:50] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  83. [09:20:28] * pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p5B126183.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ()
  84. [09:20:33] * pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p5B126183.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  85. [09:27:27] * bengee (n=bengee@ip-62-143-209-61.1411M-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has joined #microformats
  86. [09:27:27] <jibot> bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
  87. [09:33:24] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-6341e205f2c141e6) has joined #microformats
  88. [09:33:24] * ChanServ sets mode +o BenWard
  89. [09:33:24] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  90. [09:37:44] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  91. [09:38:14] * iand (n=iand@213.205.239.212) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  92. [09:52:14] * Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  93. [09:52:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  94. [09:52:15] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  95. [10:03:36] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) has joined #microformats
  96. [10:03:36] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  97. [10:10:21] * danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri) Quit ()
  98. [11:15:41] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  99. [11:16:57] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-6341e205f2c141e6) Quit ()
  100. [11:17:38] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  101. [11:23:17] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) has joined #microformats
  102. [11:31:46] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-1af0621a2c7ef124) has joined #microformats
  103. [11:31:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o BenWard
  104. [11:31:46] <jibot> BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
  105. [11:33:32] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
  106. [11:36:32] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25567 * AndyMabbett * (+87) 2008 - "role" ioptimisation exemption also applies to title
  107. [11:52:34] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.114.134.97.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  108. [11:58:57] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  109. [12:03:05] * vant (n=vant@p2098-ipbf4207marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  110. [12:11:42] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  111. [12:17:44] <InsomniaCity> So, how are the nested components such as VALARM supported in hCalendar?
  112. [12:25:32] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@cpe-76-189-106-159.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  113. [12:39:17] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-spaces]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-spaces&diff=0&oldid=25568 * AndyMabbett * (+212) Flickr - flickr "cleans" tags
  114. [12:53:02] <mfbot> [[User talk:CFinke]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:CFinke * AndyMabbett * (+73) Welcome!
  115. [12:56:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25569 * AndyMabbett * (-17) no edits for several hours; insert presumably-ommitted "who"
  116. [12:56:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25570 * AndyMabbett * (-1) find the minimally enclosing element - fmt for clarity
  117. [13:01:05] <mfbot> [[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25571 * AndyMabbett * (+92) ...or avatar; grammar tweaks; use "fn" to ensure that hCard based on partial instructions is valid
  118. [13:02:51] <mfbot> [[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=existing-rel-values&diff=0&oldid=25572 * AndyMabbett * (+79) POSH usage - rel-fan
  119. [13:07:52] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) has joined #microformats
  120. [13:18:19] * vant (n=vant@p2098-ipbf4207marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  121. [13:18:53] * myakura (n=myakura@p2098-ipbf4207marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  122. [13:35:37] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  123. [13:35:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  124. [13:35:37] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  125. [13:37:14] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  126. [13:37:58] * Phae (n=phaeness@gatea.mh.bbc.co.uk) Quit ()
  127. [13:38:11] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  128. [13:38:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  129. [13:42:43] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) has joined #microformats
  130. [13:51:10] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  131. [13:55:15] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-229-248-021.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  132. [13:59:59] * myakura (n=myakura@p2098-ipbf4207marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  133. [14:22:24] * BenneWarde (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-91bd3997fb26da09) has joined #microformats
  134. [14:23:05] * DanWrong_ (n=DanWrong@87.112.78.13.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  135. [14:26:55] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit ("Leaving.")
  136. [14:32:33] <mfbot> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=0&oldid=25573 * DarrenBounds * (-142) Moribund -
  137. [14:33:39] <mfbot> [[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=0&oldid=25574 * DarrenBounds * (+180) other active -
  138. [14:37:35] * csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) has joined #microformats
  139. [14:37:35] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
  140. [14:38:20] * BenWard (n=BenWard@nat/yahoo/x-1af0621a2c7ef124) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  141. [14:38:33] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.114.134.97.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  142. [14:53:44] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  143. [14:57:41] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.9.243.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  144. [15:00:12] * DanWrong__ (n=DanWrong@87.113.94.69.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  145. [15:13:51] * DanWrong_ (n=DanWrong@87.112.78.13.plusnet.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  146. [15:14:21] * DanWrong (n=DanWrong@87.112.9.243.plusnet.ptn-ag1.dyn.plus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  147. [15:22:03] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  148. [15:36:37] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25575 * AndyMabbett * (+592) 2008 - no "n" optimisation on two-word nicknames
  149. [15:37:18] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25576 * AndyMabbett * (+15) </nowiki></code>
  150. [15:37:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25577 * AndyMabbett * (+1) 2008 - )
  151. [15:41:06] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) has joined #microformats
  152. [15:46:53] * mkaply (n=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-92112f7d112d1e12) has joined #microformats
  153. [15:46:54] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  154. [15:48:15] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  155. [15:48:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  156. [15:48:15] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
  157. [15:48:21] <drewinthehead> greetings
  158. [15:48:41] <BenneWarde> Hey Drew
  159. [15:48:51] <BenneWarde> mkaply: Can we pick your brains on a parsing issue?
  160. [15:48:58] * BenneWarde is now known as BenWard
  161. [15:48:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o BenWard
  162. [15:50:06] <mkaply> BenWard: please do. That's all my brain is about right now
  163. [15:50:49] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25578 * AndyMabbett * (+0) ?
  164. [15:51:39] <BenWard> Right. Need clarification on the rules on parsing properties with a child element with class="value". I'm under the impression that it applies to all properties, so for <span class="anything">Foo <span class="value">Bar</span></span>, ‘anything’ is ‘Bar’.
  165. [15:52:21] <drewinthehead> and I think it sound plausible, but show-me-the-wiki applies :)
  166. [15:52:28] <InsomniaCity> mkaply: Operator doesn't seem to handle malformed HTML too gracefull... is that the intended behaviour?
  167. [15:52:54] <InsomniaCity> *gracefully
  168. [15:53:06] <mkaply> InsomniaCity: There's really not much I can do with malformed HTML. I'm asking the browser to give me the right thing
  169. [15:53:48] <mkaply> BenWard: I believe that is the case, and I have coded to that. Of course that creates problems because hCard uses "value" for other things as well (tel and email)
  170. [15:54:28] <BenWard> It's definitely been recommended to people on uf-discuss too, as a way to specify properties precisely
  171. [15:54:46] <BenWard> (We use it on Kelkoo on the price property, too)
  172. [15:55:32] <drewinthehead> this is all news to me
  173. [15:55:39] <drewinthehead> SMTW!
  174. [15:56:37] <BenWard> What happens if you have <span class="property-one">Hello, <span class="property-two">are you <span class="value">my friend</span>?</span>
  175. [15:56:37] <BenWard> property-two is 'my friend'
  176. [15:56:37] <BenWard> property-one is… ?
  177. [15:56:52] <mkaply> BenWard: When I implemented it, I implemented it generically. IT seemed silly to me to onlt apply value to certain things
  178. [15:57:24] <mkaply> probably both will be "my friend"
  179. [15:57:32] <mkaply> that's not terrbily valid..
  180. [15:57:34] <mkaply> let me check
  181. [15:57:40] <drewinthehead> it would seem to open the floodgates for all sorts of complex scenarios
  182. [15:58:17] <mkaply> It does, definitely
  183. [15:58:41] <drewinthehead> if property-one is also 'my friend' how far do we cascade? is it turtles all the way down?
  184. [15:59:04] <mkaply> yep. Both get my friend.
  185. [15:59:06] <mkaply> Same as X2V
  186. [15:59:29] <mkaply> IF you look logically at what that is saying, it makes sense.
  187. [15:59:36] <mkaply> property-one was never closed
  188. [15:59:40] <mkaply> and value trumps content
  189. [15:59:56] <mkaply> We have to assume at some level people are going to do this "correctly" as long as we document what "correctly" is
  190. [16:00:25] <mkaply> This is why RDF parsing is so easy and microformat parsing is so hard
  191. [16:00:31] <mkaply> s/RDF/RDFA
  192. [16:02:21] <drewinthehead> so if i have an hCalendar instance with an embedded hCard, which in turn has a tel with a value, does that value become the value of hCalendar's location?
  193. [16:02:52] <drewinthehead> it's a descendant
  194. [16:03:31] <drewinthehead> or does it only apply for a child?
  195. [16:03:32] <mkaply> Not anymore. I just put code in Operator so that microformats will never inherit from another.
  196. [16:03:52] <mkaply> IT was a very broken model
  197. [16:04:04] <mkaply> So properties stop at the parent microformat
  198. [16:04:15] <mkaply> picture shit:
  199. [16:04:19] <mkaply> That was BAD
  200. [16:04:21] <mkaply> picture this
  201. [16:04:22] <BenWard> mkaply: Does that not require Operator to know about all microformats though?
  202. [16:04:36] <mkaply> BenWard: yes, we only stop at know microformat now
  203. [16:05:04] <BenWard> So, a future, unknown microformat that uses class=value would still override a parent property.
  204. [16:05:09] <BenWard> OK
  205. [16:05:19] <mkaply> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323155
  206. [16:05:42] <mkaply> BenWard: only if it was nested inside of another parent property - which isn't the norm
  207. [16:06:37] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25579 * Aless * (-9)
  208. [16:07:02] <mkaply> Personally I dislike the value thing (especially because it has a bad name because of tel and email) but I understand why it is needed
  209. [16:07:15] <mkaply> especially when you are using microformats in a paragrph for instance
  210. [16:08:45] <drewinthehead> so as far as we know all this isn't documented anywhere?
  211. [16:08:56] <mkaply> value in general?
  212. [16:09:10] <drewinthehead> yeah ... this value pattern
  213. [16:09:37] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/value-pattern doesn't exist, and I can't find it in any of the parsing pages
  214. [16:09:44] * mkaply didn't realize drew was doing a php parser
  215. [16:10:07] <BenWard> So, mkaply, this would cause severe breakage? http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323156
  216. [16:10:28] <BenWard> (err… ignore the <h1> in that code… oops)
  217. [16:10:31] <mkaply> drewinthehead: see value exceprting mentioned in presentations
  218. [16:11:22] <mkaply> BenWard: unfortunately yes. And I don't think there's a good way to fix that. Except rewuiring values be children of the item for instance.
  219. [16:11:32] <mkaply> A lot of this stuff is very poorly documented
  220. [16:12:07] <mkaply> drewinthehead, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting
  221. [16:12:25] <mkaply> but that example doesn't work at all
  222. [16:12:41] <mkaply> as a matter of fact, that example is useless. Since that's not a value excepting example
  223. [16:12:55] <drewinthehead> yeah, i'm doing that for hcard, but i wasn't aware of the wider special value of value
  224. [16:13:39] <mkaply> This makes me wonder where value excerpting came from at all since the only example in the wiki isn't actually an exampel of value excerpting - it's an example of the value subproperty on tel
  225. [16:14:35] <drewinthehead> kingryan has an example - slide 13: http://theryanking.com/presentations/2007/www2007-microformats-parsing/
  226. [16:15:05] <mkaply> yeah. So does roger costello in his stuff
  227. [16:15:35] <drewinthehead> doesn't make it fact though ;)
  228. [16:15:47] <mkaply> Nope. That's really interesting.
  229. [16:16:31] <drewinthehead> the thought of having to look for descendants is making my skin crawl
  230. [16:16:49] <drewinthehead> children i could cope with
  231. [16:16:55] <mkaply> I just do a getElementsByClassName on anything with value.
  232. [16:16:58] <mkaply> and use it.
  233. [16:17:04] <mkaply> in the DOM world
  234. [16:17:13] <drewinthehead> what a luxurious place it is :)
  235. [16:17:35] <drewinthehead> what about this issue of cascading into nested formats?
  236. [16:19:23] <mkaply> (this is new code) after I get all the proeprty elements, I check the parent microformat of the element and if it is not the same as the one I'm dealing with, I ignore it
  237. [16:19:34] <mkaply> So an fn in a nested vcard wouldn't accidentally go into a parent vcard
  238. [16:19:36] <drewinthehead> hkit relies on being loaded with the profiles of the microformats you're looking for - so I have no way to know when I've stumbled across another format and should stop.
  239. [16:19:54] <mkaply> drewinthehead: yep. Operator is the same way.
  240. [16:20:08] <mkaply> drewinthehead: in hindsight, maybe we should have had class="microformat hCard"
  241. [16:20:16] <mkaply> So we can identify all mfs
  242. [16:20:31] <drewinthehead> so do you have some kind of is-decendent-of function to check which format it belongs to?
  243. [16:21:11] <mkaply> drewinthehead: I use XPath. IT's a really ugly XPath statement that looks for the first parent with a given className or attName/Value combination
  244. [16:21:35] <drewinthehead> ok, that'd work
  245. [16:21:38] <drewinthehead> hmm
  246. [16:22:12] <mkaply> So basically the Operator architecture is: create a generic parsing structure for microformats
  247. [16:22:34] <mkaply> Then in the definition for individual microformats, allow them to override how individual properties are retrieved where there are exceptions
  248. [16:22:50] <mkaply> For instance, the knowledge of how to construct a nickname is in hcard itself.
  249. [16:22:59] <drewinthehead> right
  250. [16:23:03] <mkaply> But the knowledge of how to resolve include patterns is in the parser
  251. [16:23:28] <mkaply> This has worked so far. The biggest hurdles along the way were the value problems with value excerpting vs. value in tel/email
  252. [16:23:31] <drewinthehead> this all sounds remarkably familiar.
  253. [16:23:57] <mkaply> validation was tricky. Some microformat have "required stuff" some don't (adr comes to mind)
  254. [16:24:26] <mkaply> I also ended up creating custom getters for specific data types (dataTime, anyURI, email, tel, HTML, float, microformat)
  255. [16:24:40] <mkaply> So in the microformat definition you could specify the type of data and I could retrieve it properly
  256. [16:25:05] <mkaply> There's also one problem that is still unsolved - should thinks like NOTE in a vcard or DESCRIPTION in an hcard be retrieved as text or HTML
  257. [16:25:32] <mkaply> Most web pages have them as HTML, but just removing the HTML produces ugliness. There's a text parser described in the docs, but good luck writing that.
  258. [16:25:35] <mkaply> text parsing HTML is hard
  259. [16:26:31] <BenWard> Mmmmmm… interesting
  260. [16:26:51] <BenWard> Well, since it's being used (and parsed) we should probably try to spec it.
  261. [16:26:58] <drewinthehead> Yeah, where you have the luxury of a browser DOM, I have the luxury of being middleware :)
  262. [16:27:08] <mkaply> What I did in Operator is allow you to call .toHTML on text
  263. [16:27:16] <mkaply> and it gets the original HTML
  264. [16:27:31] <drewinthehead> BenWard: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerpting ?
  265. [16:27:34] <mkaply> ISO dates were painful as well
  266. [16:27:51] <mkaply> Doing time zone conversions. Standardizing dates. etc.
  267. [16:28:39] <drewinthehead> mkaply: my primary profile is hcard at the moment, so I've not run into those yet :/
  268. [16:28:47] <drewinthehead> wish me luck
  269. [16:28:53] <mkaply> drewinthehead: Birthday.
  270. [16:29:18] * BenWard wonders if ‘only parse value="" as a direct descendent, or when nested in elements that do not have a class attribute would be the most feasible…
  271. [16:29:31] <drewinthehead> mkaply: not for 2 weeks, why do you ask ;)
  272. [16:29:45] <mkaply> drewinthehead: ISO date in hcard - birthday :)
  273. [16:29:59] <drewinthehead> mkaply: yeah, I was ignoring the question :D
  274. [16:30:02] <mkaply> Should it indicate exact moment of birth? Just day? Just year?
  275. [16:30:18] * mkaply decides to put his exact moment of birth in his vcard.
  276. [16:30:23] <mkaply> So everyone can celebrate
  277. [16:30:29] <drewinthehead> and include the URI for the video on YouTube
  278. [16:31:12] <mkaply> drewinthehead: Incidentally this is a problem in the mf process.
  279. [16:31:15] <mkaply> Here's how it works in w3.
  280. [16:31:26] <mkaply> Designers design completely insane wacky ideas.
  281. [16:31:35] <mkaply> They have meetings where implementors are involved.
  282. [16:31:44] <mkaply> Implementors say "you guys are smoking something - you can't do this"
  283. [16:32:02] <mkaply> lots of errata are published because the designers created something impossible.
  284. [16:32:06] * levitation_ (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) has joined #microformats
  285. [16:32:14] <mkaply> And the various implementors work together to "do the right thing"(TM)
  286. [16:32:35] <mkaply> With microformats, we have a wiki that is changeable, people coming up with new ideas constantly - some really good
  287. [16:32:53] <mkaply> And everyone doing something different with implementation, but very little communication.
  288. [16:33:01] * DanWrong__ (n=DanWrong@87.113.94.69.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ("A B C ya and I wouldn't want to be ya")
  289. [16:33:17] <mkaply> When FF3 comes out, it will have my vision of a Microformats parser. I sure hope I'm right :)
  290. [16:33:23] * bengee (n=bengee@ip-62-143-209-61.1411M-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has left #microformats
  291. [16:33:36] <drewinthehead> i tried to object over the hcard fn=n optimization, but failed :)
  292. [16:34:01] <mkaply> yeah, the fn n optimization is horrible. As is the nickname optimization. It's very Eurocentric
  293. [16:34:07] <mkaply> I have a friend who has one name. It's not his nickname
  294. [16:35:08] <mkaply> And just because an fn has two strings doesn't make it a first and last name
  295. [16:35:14] <mkaply> We shouldn't try to second guess folks.
  296. [16:35:44] <drewinthehead> I made second guessing an art form!
  297. [16:36:11] <drewinthehead> If proof were needed of how bad it is to try and second guess: http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/best-guess/
  298. [16:37:08] <mkaply> You are kidding me, right?
  299. [16:37:14] <mkaply> You're trying to figure out MR?
  300. [16:37:17] <mkaply> You are CRAZY
  301. [16:37:20] <mkaply> Youi'll LOVE this then
  302. [16:37:37] <drewinthehead> It's an exercise ;)
  303. [16:38:06] <mkaply> OK, do this
  304. [16:38:11] <mkaply> go here
  305. [16:38:12] <mkaply> https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/index.cfm?category=enroll&loc=enroll_start.cfm&rsdone2=%253A8%2520M%252AW%255BGE%255FLG%253F%255D%2540%252F7%2525M%253BD%252E%253DH%252F%2529%253AQ%25217%253D3%2527S%2540%2524%2520%250A
  306. [16:38:23] <mkaply> Do you get a button that says "start the enrollment process"
  307. [16:38:56] <drewinthehead> I do
  308. [16:39:00] <mkaply> Click on it.
  309. [16:39:05] <mkaply> Then pop down Title.
  310. [16:39:07] <mkaply> This is AWESOME
  311. [16:39:26] <drewinthehead> I have a much better list than that :D
  312. [16:40:03] <drewinthehead> I think I got mine from BA
  313. [16:40:08] <drewinthehead> Heh
  314. [16:40:42] <mkaply> You handle all those? :)
  315. [16:40:52] <mkaply> King
  316. [16:40:53] <mkaply> Prince
  317. [16:40:53] <drewinthehead> yup
  318. [16:41:00] <drewinthehead> First Lieutient
  319. [16:41:08] <drewinthehead> His Highness
  320. [16:41:22] <drewinthehead> Embajadora
  321. [16:41:33] <drewinthehead> Air Vice Marshal
  322. [16:41:36] <drewinthehead> the lot!
  323. [16:41:40] <drewinthehead> and suffixes too
  324. [16:43:04] <mkaply> You're thinking WAY too much about this
  325. [16:43:48] <drewinthehead> possibly...
  326. [16:44:27] <drewinthehead> i appear to have lost control of my computer. back in a moment.
  327. [16:44:30] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  328. [16:48:05] * levitation[A] (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  329. [16:49:17] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) has joined #microformats
  330. [16:49:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  331. [16:49:17] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  332. [16:50:44] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  333. [16:50:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  334. [16:51:15] <drewinthehead> that was weird ... i lost the ability to switch applications
  335. [16:53:09] <drewinthehead> mkaply: things get really fun: http://tools.microformatic.com/query/xhtml/best-guess/The+Rt+Hon+Lord+Drew+McLellan+MB+BChir+Cantab
  336. [16:53:36] <mkaply> drewinthehead: what are you doing about plural properties? Are you always exposing them as an array?
  337. [16:53:57] <mkaply> That's awesome
  338. [16:54:14] <drewinthehead> mkaply: yes, as an array
  339. [16:54:49] <tantek> good morning
  340. [16:54:54] <mkaply> ok. Good. That was a problem with one of the microformats->JSON implementations
  341. [16:55:16] <mkaply> tantek: You've missed the most activity this channel has had in months
  342. [16:55:25] <tantek> it sound like it!
  343. [16:55:35] <drewinthehead> (it's usually when I start giving myself an honorific prefix of The Rt Hon Lord that tantek picks me up for theoretical examples)
  344. [16:56:22] <drewinthehead> mkaply: because I generate just a PHP array, using hkit to output JSON is trivial
  345. [16:56:52] <mkaply> drewinthehead: Some guy was selling lordships. Make it official
  346. [16:57:04] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  347. [16:57:17] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) has joined #microformats
  348. [16:57:34] <drewinthehead> <?php echo json_encode($output_from_hkit); ?>
  349. [16:57:36] <drewinthehead> :)
  350. [16:57:46] <mkaply> drewinthehead: actually in FF3 it should be easy as well. I think they added JSON encoding.
  351. [16:58:48] <drewinthehead> so the elephant in the room is still this issue of knowing when we've found an unknown microformat. a known unknown.
  352. [16:59:12] <drewinthehead> for value excerpting, i mean
  353. [16:59:22] <mkaply> not just that, the word value is kind of common unfortunately
  354. [17:00:03] <tantek> indeed
  355. [17:00:09] <tantek> kind of like the word title
  356. [17:02:02] <drewinthehead> the word elephant is less commonly used, but i suspect that's of little help here.
  357. [17:02:55] <mkaply> elephant exceprting?
  358. [17:03:02] <mkaply> class="trunk"
  359. [17:03:05] <mkaply> class="ear"
  360. [17:03:08] <mkaply> class="tail"
  361. [17:03:16] <mkaply> Combine to make the whole elephant?
  362. [17:03:35] <drewinthehead> just keep your mouse away from it.
  363. [17:04:41] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  364. [17:04:41] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  365. [17:05:00] <drewinthehead> pnhChris is here ... we'd better behave
  366. [17:05:17] * pnhChris looks around
  367. [17:05:45] <drewinthehead> so I could maintain a list of known root class names, but installations in the wild will go out of date
  368. [17:06:02] <drewinthehead> and the alternative is phoning home (or phoning a friend)
  369. [17:06:46] <drewinthehead> unless it's a user option. (the 'ask the audience' method)
  370. [17:06:58] <mkaply> Or we could discuss not nesting value exceprting
  371. [17:07:18] <mkaply> tantek: everyone talks about value excerpting, but the example on the wiki isn't even an example of value excerpting
  372. [17:07:19] <drewinthehead> or limiting it to children? is that even realistic?
  373. [17:07:21] <mkaply> where did it come from?
  374. [17:08:25] <tantek> phone numbers
  375. [17:09:56] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Value_excerpting
  376. [17:10:54] <mkaply> But that's not really value exceprting is it? value and type are just sub properties of tel
  377. [17:11:00] <mkaply> at least that's the way I define it in my microformats
  378. [17:12:07] <tantek> note the case of when there is no explicit class="value"
  379. [17:12:10] <drewinthehead> the most documentation I can find is in Slide #13 of this presentation by kingryan http://theryanking.com/presentations/2007/www2007-microformats-parsing/
  380. [17:12:41] <mkaply> well I don't know about drew's parser, but regardless of what you put in your mf
  381. [17:12:48] <mkaply> tel[i].value is the number
  382. [17:12:56] <mkaply> Since there had to be a standard way to get the number
  383. [17:13:27] <mkaply> and tel[i].type is the type (if specified)
  384. [17:13:39] <tantek> that seems reasonable
  385. [17:13:57] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) Quit (Success)
  386. [17:14:18] <mkaply> but all the examples of value excerpting show it used for names
  387. [17:14:18] <tantek> mkaply, the same could apply to the "email" property though rarely will people bother with a non-internet email
  388. [17:14:43] <mkaply> like <span class="fn>My name is <span class="value">Mike</span> and my last name is <span class="value">Kaply</span></span<
  389. [17:14:55] <mkaply> (examples in presentations)
  390. [17:15:05] <mkaply> actually, that won't work. Need a space in there
  391. [17:15:08] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting
  392. [17:15:10] <mkaply> like <span class="fn>My name is <span class="value">Mike</span> and my last name is <span class="value"> Kaply</span></span>
  393. [17:15:44] <mkaply> That one is using the tel again which isn't the best example since tel is defined as having a value subproperty
  394. [17:17:01] <tantek> ah, you are looking for examples of value excerpting on properties that do not define an explicit "value" subproperty?
  395. [17:17:07] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  396. [17:18:55] <mkaply> tantek: yep. We were discussing that you could run into scenarios where you picked up the "value" of a child node.
  397. [17:19:17] <mkaply> http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323156
  398. [17:19:35] <tantek> of a descendant?
  399. [17:19:53] <mkaply> yep
  400. [17:20:15] <tantek> i think there are two possible problems here
  401. [17:20:24] <tantek> first is the hunknown opacity problem
  402. [17:21:20] <tantek> for which there has been some thinking/analysis under the subject of "mfo"
  403. [17:21:23] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples
  404. [17:21:35] <tantek> the second problem is the value in a nested property problem
  405. [17:23:07] * drewinthehead was unaware of mfo ... sounds useful
  406. [17:23:16] <drewinthehead> would be better if it was mofo
  407. [17:23:50] <tantek> mfo only made so much progress because the need was mostly theoretical
  408. [17:24:23] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  409. [17:24:25] <mkaply> But in practice, most microformats should be opaque
  410. [17:24:32] <tantek> and also, it makes microformats a bit more complex for authors, that is, for them to have to use say class="hunknown mfo"
  411. [17:24:35] <mkaply> I like mfo simply as a way to identify ANY microformat object
  412. [17:24:38] <tantek> mkaply true
  413. [17:24:42] <tantek> that's the point of mfo
  414. [17:25:01] <tantek> so that parsers can be written to handle encapsulation in a forward-compatible manner
  415. [17:25:19] <mkaply> I'm definitely planning on putting opaqueness in for FF 3
  416. [17:25:22] <drewinthehead> and in a modular manner
  417. [17:25:33] <mkaply> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=416134
  418. [17:25:57] <mkaply> But if a microformat shouldn't be opaque (like hAtom/hEntry) - you can write custom code in the microformat handler to solve that
  419. [17:26:01] <mkaply> So we default to opaqueness
  420. [17:26:14] <tantek> yes
  421. [17:26:23] <tantek> i don't really like the term opaqueness to refer to this functionality
  422. [17:26:33] <mkaply> And while we're on this subject, I have a question about haudio
  423. [17:26:34] <tantek> it feels like a slight misuse of opaqueness
  424. [17:26:49] <tantek> and i think "encapsulation" is the traditional CS term for this functionality
  425. [17:26:49] <mkaply> Is it true that at some point folks said that the <item> in haudio should not have haudio on it?
  426. [17:27:17] <mkaply> It seems to me that there is an outer haudio for the album, and if the items represent tracks (which are haudio as well) - they should be "item haudio"
  427. [17:27:18] <tantek> mkaply, not sure. regardless, any properties must be on children of a root element for a microformat
  428. [17:27:46] <tantek> oh a nested example
  429. [17:27:46] <tantek> yeah that could make sense
  430. [17:27:48] <mkaply> for an hreview, the vcard is on the item, though right? (if it is a location)
  431. [17:28:12] <mkaply> It certainly makes them easier to parse. So the fn for the track doesn't get munged into the fn for the album
  432. [17:28:22] <drewinthehead> or class="location vcard" in hcalendar
  433. [17:28:29] <tantek> correct
  434. [17:28:44] <tantek> for hReview, item hCards for businesses and people
  435. [17:28:55] <tantek> for hReview, item hCalendar events for events
  436. [17:29:49] <mkaply> so it would be logical if the item in an haudio were an haudio track to be "item haudio"
  437. [17:30:02] <tantek> mkaply, such "fn" disambiguation between levels in the hierarchy is similar to <li> disambiguation between different levels in a nested list e.g. <ul><li><ul><li></li><ul></li><li></li></ul>
  438. [17:31:26] <mkaply> The main thing I'm concerned about is my making decisions about microformats parsing in FF3 that are wrong. I'm coming down to the wire.
  439. [17:32:52] <tantek> mkaply, I cannot find documentation of generic value excerpting on all properties either
  440. [17:33:41] <drewinthehead> at the moment hkit only deals with value as a defined sub-prop. no magic excerpting at all
  441. [17:34:45] <tantek> so far it is defined only for hCard properties that have a "type" subproperty, for adr and geo properties: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Value_excerpting http://microformats.org/wiki/geo#Value_excerpting
  442. [17:35:48] <mkaply> interestiong. So where did ryan and roger come up with their examples?
  443. [17:36:08] <mkaply> tantek: It can be used for fun things
  444. [17:36:21] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/about
  445. [17:37:32] <tantek> ok, I think if none of us can find documentation on generic value excerpting, it would not be unreasonable to declare it not mature enough to be implemented.
  446. [17:37:46] * trovster (n=trovster@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  447. [17:37:46] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  448. [17:38:34] <mkaply> tantek: but in the phone number example, is this valid?
  449. [17:39:44] <mkaply> <span class="tel"><span class="value">512</span><span class="value">555-1212</span>
  450. [17:39:50] <mkaply> That's really what value excepriting was about, right?
  451. [17:40:04] <mkaply> (at least as explained to me)
  452. [17:40:10] * mkaply goes to look in the microformats book
  453. [17:40:50] <tantek> mkaply that's right
  454. [17:41:24] <mkaply> tantek: But why would you really do that? with a phone number?
  455. [17:41:31] <mkaply> And again, none of the tel examples show that case
  456. [17:41:54] <tantek> oh sorry, i misread your example
  457. [17:42:21] <tantek> yes it is valid, the separate "value" children are appended
  458. [17:42:41] <mkaply> fyi current bugs
  459. [17:42:41] <mkaply> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&component=Microformats&emailassigned_to1=1&emailassigned_to2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailreporter2=1&field-1-0-0=component&field-1-1-0=product&field-1-2-0=resolution&product=Toolkit&query_format=advanced&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=---&type-1-0-0=anyexact&type-1-1-0=anyexact&type-1-2-0=anyexact&value-1-0-0=Microformats&value-1-1-0=Toolkit&value-1-2-0=DUPLICATE%2C---&known_name=Micr
  460. [17:42:42] <mkaply> oformats
  461. [17:42:50] <tantek> value excerpting is currently only documented (AFAIK) for hCard properties which have a subproperty of "type", and for "adr" and "geo" properties.
  462. [17:43:00] <mkaply> tantek: where id the documentation that the seprate values are appended? I didn't see that in any of the examples
  463. [17:43:16] <tantek> and for those latter two, I can't find examples or use cases and thus am tempted to move them from the spec to brainstorming.
  464. [17:43:20] <BenWard> I use the following in my CV: <span class="tel"><span class="value">+44</span> (0) <span class="value">712 3123456</span></span> — so value concat is useful to me ;)
  465. [17:44:10] <mkaply> I don't disagree it's useful. Just undocumented :)
  466. [17:44:34] <mkaply> The weirdness I ran into was knowing whether or not a value was being used for the tel value or for the value of the tel number
  467. [17:44:39] <mkaply> That required a strange special case
  468. [17:45:03] <mkaply> /* Special case - if this node is a value, use the parent node to get all the values */
  469. [17:45:03] <mkaply> /* If this case gets executed, per the value design pattern, the result */
  470. [17:45:03] <mkaply> /* will be the EXACT email address with no extra parsing required */
  471. [17:45:33] <mkaply> So the problem is that value is a subproperty, but if you find it, you need to go to the parent to make sure you get all the values if there are more than one
  472. [17:45:44] <mkaply> So sometimes value means value, and sometimes value means "get all the values and concatenate"
  473. [17:46:08] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  474. [17:46:10] <tantek> doesn't the latter always include the meaning of the former?
  475. [17:46:27] <drewinthehead> I'm sure the concatenation rule is documented
  476. [17:46:34] <tantek> or rather, given the latter interpretation, when there is only one class="value", it has the same result as the former
  477. [17:47:29] <tantek> drat, I can't even find where I specified that the hCard "note" property is concatenated
  478. [17:47:43] * tantek starts to check page histories
  479. [17:48:58] <mkaply> actually the later doesn't mean the former. Because in the concatenate case, you use the EXACT values of the "value" where as in the othercase, you don't. A good example would be this
  480. [17:49:09] <mkaply> (spans removed for clariety)
  481. [17:49:38] <mkaply> <tel><value> 512-555-1212</value>
  482. [17:49:54] <mkaply> value is 512-555-1212 with spaces removed
  483. [17:50:04] <mkaply> <tel><value> 512-</value><value>555-1212</value>
  484. [17:50:17] <mkaply> I woudl keep the spaces because the value excerpt pattern says to use the EXACT values
  485. [17:50:52] <mkaply> I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I couldn't come up with a better example
  486. [17:51:22] <tantek> i think in either case you drop the spaces
  487. [17:51:55] <mkaply> No, you don't
  488. [17:52:08] <mkaply> you can't
  489. [17:52:22] <mkaply> <value>Mike </value><value>Kaply</value>
  490. [17:52:43] <mkaply> I assume with value excerpting that you knew exactly what you wanted in the value tags.
  491. [17:52:51] <tantek> side note: I did find some problems in recent /wiki/hcard edits, but nothing to do with value excerpting.
  492. [17:52:55] <mkaply> So I don't do any whitespace correction or removals
  493. [17:53:11] <tantek> mkaply, I think that level of detail for value excerpting will be lost on authors
  494. [17:53:15] <tantek> or rather, that distinction
  495. [17:53:16] <mkaply> My understanding was that was the point of value excerpting
  496. [17:53:27] <tantek> better to keep the whitespace handling consistent and simple
  497. [17:53:35] <tantek> no the point of value excerpting is not whitespace
  498. [17:53:39] <mkaply> Then the example above would be
  499. [17:53:42] <tantek> it is often for removing punctuation
  500. [17:53:49] <mkaply> <value>Mike</value><value> </value><value>Kaply</value>
  501. [17:53:50] <tantek> or excess (0) like in Ben Ward's example
  502. [17:54:07] <mkaply> you actually couldn't use value excerpting for names anymore if that was the case
  503. [17:55:11] <mkaply> See
  504. [17:55:12] <mkaply> http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCard.html
  505. [17:55:15] <mkaply> page 13
  506. [17:55:27] <mkaply> page 14 especiialy
  507. [17:55:36] <mkaply> and page 15
  508. [17:56:43] <tantek> note mkaply, for S5 presos, you can link to specific slides thusly: http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCard.html#slide13
  509. [17:56:52] <mkaply> tx
  510. [17:57:15] <tantek> mkaply, that slides is merely repeating of a single email thread which never got documented on the wiki
  511. [17:58:09] <mkaply> tantek: I was more pointing out the space issue that we just talked about. Removing the space from the value would make the example not valid. It would seem that the inclusion of the exact contents of the <value> was the intention
  512. [17:58:29] <tantek> no it was not, certainly not as documented
  513. [17:58:45] <tantek> that use to extract an fn out of a split mention of given and family name is only a brainstorm example
  514. [17:59:03] <tantek> AFAIK, there no one ever found/documented a real world example that would require that behavior
  515. [17:59:06] <mkaply> Then I would argue the value exceprting is useless except where numbers are involved.
  516. [17:59:25] <mkaply> or email addresses
  517. [17:59:35] <tantek> mkaply, or rather, as specified, they have limited utility
  518. [17:59:38] <tantek> which is *ok* to start with
  519. [17:59:47] <mkaply> Things without spaces. Otherwise you'd have to figure out a way to add spaces into the thing you specified
  520. [17:59:55] <tantek> that's part of as simple as possible -- as minimal as possible
  521. [18:01:31] * trovster (n=trovster@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  522. [18:01:45] <mkaply> So tell me what to do and I'll do it. Should I remove value excerpting from Operator except for email and telephone? (things that already use value)
  523. [18:02:00] <tantek> I think that's the safest path.
  524. [18:02:02] <mkaply> s/Operator/FF3
  525. [18:02:23] <tantek> because the other behaviors aren't even documented on the wiki!
  526. [18:02:58] <mkaply> Incidentally, the multiple values for a phone number are in the hcard tests - but not documented on the wiki
  527. [18:03:05] <tantek> the email lists should be considered "less than brainstorming" with respect to documentation
  528. [18:03:26] <tantek> mkaply - URLs?
  529. [18:03:59] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
  530. [18:03:59] <jibot> finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
  531. [18:04:05] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/tests/hcard/21-tel.html
  532. [18:04:42] <tantek> indeed, the concatenation of both value and note need to be documented
  533. [18:05:40] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#class_value_handling
  534. [18:05:53] <mkaply> there it is
  535. [18:06:08] <drewinthehead> I knew I'd read it somewhere
  536. [18:06:23] <tantek> thanks drew - at least I remembered to put it there
  537. [18:06:32] <mkaply> And there's no way I would implement that just for hcard, so I implemented it for all mfs
  538. [18:06:45] <tantek> now there's just the pre-microformats.org designed behavior of "note" concatenation that I need to document
  539. [18:07:04] <mkaply> And it does say "concatenate"
  540. [18:07:20] <tantek> mkaply, of course, because other microformats (like hCalendar) currently reference hcard-parsing for parsing details
  541. [18:07:27] <mkaply> IT doesn't say "remove whitespace first"
  542. [18:07:37] <mkaply> more docs
  543. [18:07:41] <tantek> mkaply it doesn't say to do anything different with whitespace
  544. [18:07:59] <tantek> as compared to other properties
  545. [18:08:01] <tantek> that's the key
  546. [18:08:06] <tantek> so don't do anything different
  547. [18:08:09] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#References
  548. [18:08:11] <mkaply> Look above references
  549. [18:08:45] <mkaply> drewinthehead: it uses the word child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  550. [18:08:56] <mkaply> twice
  551. [18:09:15] <drewinthehead> ah ha!
  552. [18:09:24] <drewinthehead> not descendant then
  553. [18:09:45] <mkaply> that solves BenWard's problem
  554. [18:09:54] <tantek> boy am I glad I wrote that resolution to that issue as precisely as I did
  555. [18:09:56] <mkaply> tantek: would you agree that what was meant here was "child"
  556. [18:10:12] <mkaply> let's add value excerpting to that comment so if we search again we find it
  557. [18:10:14] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  558. [18:10:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  559. [18:10:14] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  560. [18:10:18] <tantek> yes, that's the conservative meaning
  561. [18:10:24] <tantek> speaking of whom
  562. [18:10:52] * iand (n=iand@89.192.100.183) has joined #microformats
  563. [18:10:52] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  564. [18:10:58] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=25580 * MikeKaply * (+31) parsing hCard properties and values -
  565. [18:11:17] <mkaply> ok, so I'm going to try to change my code to do only "value" children. That might be tricky
  566. [18:11:22] <tantek> thanks mkaply
  567. [18:11:33] <mkaply> which will then mean we need a testcase. for the good and the bad
  568. [18:11:54] <tantek> well the hCard test case you linked to above covers the good
  569. [18:12:07] <tantek> let's leave the descendants possibility open
  570. [18:12:12] <drewinthehead> I've got to head offline for a while, but I'll pop back in later
  571. [18:12:22] <tantek> so that we have the chance to better specify it in the future
  572. [18:12:24] <mkaply> tantek: the descendants thing throws a big wrench in this.
  573. [18:12:25] <drewinthehead> handling children in hkit shouldn't be a problem.
  574. [18:12:28] <mkaply> I really like the idea of only children
  575. [18:12:39] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
  576. [18:12:43] <tantek> mkaply - that will be good for the discussion of descendant values
  577. [18:12:58] <mkaply> I'm going to change to child now to match the "spec" - we'll go from there
  578. [18:13:12] <tantek> mkaply sounds good
  579. [18:13:46] <tantek> note that kingryan is now in the channel, perhaps we should ask him about http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006896.html
  580. [18:14:35] <tantek> kingryan, where is generic value excerpting (applying class="value" to any property) defined on the wiki?
  581. [18:15:28] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Value_excerpting ?
  582. [18:16:32] <tantek> looking at that it seems to imply that it's only for properties that have a "type" subproperty
  583. [18:16:59] <tantek> as well as in the example preceding that section
  584. [18:17:55] <tantek> all other discussion about it seems like it has been purely theoretical, e.g. one mention in email, which was then copy/pasted to an S5 preso.
  585. [18:18:10] <tantek> so not much theoretical discussion even
  586. [18:18:25] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  587. [18:20:22] <csarven> http://www.csarven.ca/microformats-introduction -- any comments? would appreciate it if anyone can identify any misconceptions that i might have mentioned and so i can correct them. the article is loosely based on the presentation i gave: http://www.csarven.ca/presentations/microformats-01 (tantek i reused some of your slides) :)
  588. [18:22:49] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25581 * Tantek * (+65) reverted edits which broke the foot-note like references for property notes, re-added note about alphabetic phone numbers, replace alc ref
  589. [18:26:26] <InsomniaCity> So, how are the nested components such as VALARM supported in hCalendar?
  590. [18:26:36] * gl (n=glebleu@63.82.3.130) has joined #microformats
  591. [18:26:57] <tantek> InsomniaCity, so far, hCalendar only defines use of the VEVENT component, and the rest are out of scope currently
  592. [18:27:09] <InsomniaCity> brilliant, thanks.
  593. [18:27:22] <tantek> there is some effort to work on a to-do microformat using VTODO as a basis
  594. [18:27:27] <tantek> but it is just brainstorming at this point
  595. [18:27:52] * gl is now known as glebleu
  596. [18:29:18] <mkaply> This change will make BenWard much happier
  597. [18:29:50] <BenWard> :P Cheers Mike
  598. [18:30:09] <mkaply> BenWard: so both your evil examples are OK now
  599. [18:30:32] <mkaply> Amazing that one tiny word (child) can make such a difference
  600. [18:30:50] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25582 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+46) Added glebleu to IRC list
  601. [18:31:22] <BenWard> It all came up having the entirity of Yahoo Hack Day so far writing profiles for hKit (hListing, in this case). A good case to have cleared up :)
  602. [18:33:25] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  603. [18:34:47] <mkaply> do you have good hListing profile? I haven't done an Operator version yet
  604. [18:34:50] <tantek> not related at all:
  605. [18:34:53] * tantek just registered iblameryan.com and iblameryanking.com
  606. [18:35:40] <mkaply> tantek: could probably sell those to wife/spouse/significant other as well
  607. [18:36:34] <tantek> call it blame-parity. (ryan owns iblametantek.com, and i'm shocked he didn't reg his own ;) )
  608. [18:37:21] <kingryan> mkaply: only if I had a "wife/spouse/significant other" :)
  609. [18:37:38] * kingryan notes that he also owns iblamekevin.com
  610. [18:37:52] <mkaply> kingryan: figure out a way to blame tantek for that
  611. [18:38:08] <mkaply> (the so part)
  612. [18:38:34] <tantek> kingryan, be careful what you ask for
  613. [18:40:24] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) Quit ("Leaving.")
  614. [18:40:53] <csarven> going to register to futureofwebapps tonight =)
  615. [18:42:16] <kingryan> anwyay, tantek, back to your Q about value-excerpting: you're probably right that its not documented
  616. [18:42:27] * kingryan has to go commute now, bbiab
  617. [18:42:28] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  618. [18:42:58] <tantek> hence i'm labeling it as "less than brainstorming" and thus not suitable for production implementation.
  619. [18:43:30] * tantek is reading csarven's intro
  620. [18:43:40] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  621. [18:46:12] <tantek> csarven, nice intro
  622. [18:46:37] <tantek> would suggest putting the email list(s) last in the "get involved" section
  623. [18:47:10] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) has joined #microformats
  624. [18:47:11] <tantek> it seems to be the most noisy historically and has tended to put off a lot of new folks, especially new folks that are busy with many other things and can't afford the time to read 3 emails in a row from the same person (which seems to happen far too often)
  625. [18:49:10] <csarven> interesting. will do
  626. [18:49:43] <csarven> did you think it covered it well enough? im mostly concerned about any misconceptions or what it can or cannot (or meant to) do
  627. [18:53:26] * iand (n=iand@89.192.100.183) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  628. [18:54:20] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  629. [18:54:30] <tantek> csarven i think overall it is very good
  630. [18:54:44] <tantek> one misconception might be the whole web 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 thing
  631. [18:54:51] <csarven> :)
  632. [18:54:53] <tantek> microformats aren't really tied to any of those
  633. [18:55:02] <tantek> i mean, POSH practices predate Web 2.0
  634. [18:56:01] <tantek> and frankly, until the uppercase Semantic Web is defined otherwise, I don't expect that having a slew of invisible metadata on the web based on a numerous random schemas from many sources is ever going to work out.
  635. [18:56:16] <tantek> invisible = bad - we've already demonstrated that.
  636. [18:56:23] <tantek> and random schemas = zero interop
  637. [18:56:27] <csarven> true that. i think i wanted to show a way to connect what we have now with where it will eventually move to
  638. [18:56:54] <tantek> random schemas = babble. everybody speaking their own language and no one communicating.
  639. [18:57:04] <tantek> the whole point of semantics/meaning is communicating between people.
  640. [18:57:22] <glebleu> hello. I thought irc might be better than uf-discuss for a question I have (avoiding noise!): I've been researching the semantics of fn and I am looking for pointers that would explain/support the use of fn outside of a person's name.
  641. [18:58:04] <tantek> glebleu - i am behind on reading the lists because, as you say, there is too much noise there (i expect some admin actions may be taken soon).
  642. [18:58:17] <tantek> the point is that fn simply means "formatted name"
  643. [18:58:55] <tantek> it is vCard which uses "fn" to apply to the name of a person (or organization as it turns out)
  644. [18:59:12] <tantek> hCard is extending that to also apply "fn" to the name of a place (see hCard brainstorming for more on that discussion)
  645. [19:00:12] <tantek> microformats reuse vocabulary from existing standards, and that means doing so quite abstractly often, extracting that vocabulary from the weight of all the context/details/requirements of the existing standard
  646. [19:00:46] <tantek> as such, even if vCard used "fn" to refer to the formatted name of a person or organization, microformats extracted "fn" as just "formatted name"
  647. [19:01:13] <tantek> as the more general concept of a name which is displayed
  648. [19:01:39] <tantek> and for that, there is no need for a separate word to indicate the name of an item or movie etc.
  649. [19:02:56] * csarven- (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) has joined #microformats
  650. [19:03:09] <glebleu> from my reading of vcard/rfc2426 ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2426.txt, it seems that vcard is for people objects. is hCard fn meaning based on a more recent vcard specification?
  651. [19:03:29] <tantek> glebleu - see above about how microformats extract vocabulary
  652. [19:04:20] <tantek> there is no more recent vCard specification
  653. [19:04:22] <tantek> RFC2426 is it
  654. [19:04:49] <tantek> the misconception that I think people have had is the assumption that reusing vocabulary implies that everything else comes with it - which it doesn't.
  655. [19:06:03] <tantek> which is perhaps a specific example of the incorrect assumption that one can simply take an existing format and make it into a microformat just by turning it into class names.
  656. [19:06:12] <tantek> there's more to it than that
  657. [19:06:18] <tantek> hence http://microformats.org/wiki/process
  658. [19:07:30] <csarven-> it appears to be that the logs at http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC are truncated at some places
  659. [19:08:23] <glebleu> but doesn't formatted name implies that there is an unformatted name? this makes sense for a person's name, for which a structured name is desired, but not for a place name, company name: in the latter case, the formatted name = the name?
  660. [19:15:27] <tantek> precisely, in the latter cases, formatted name = the name, thus we can simply reuse the term, rather than inventing a new term.
  661. [19:15:47] <tantek> and no, formatted name doesn't imply that there is an unformatted name
  662. [19:16:32] <tantek> other things may have structured names as well, but until research determines a need for structured names for other types of objects, we don't have to worry about them.
  663. [19:21:18] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  664. [19:21:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  665. [19:21:18] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  666. [19:22:51] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  667. [19:23:22] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
  668. [19:25:00] <csarven-> is there a wiki page that is best to capture objections (or concerns) of microformats? http://microformats.org/wiki/criticism or http://microformats.org/wiki/faq is close enough but im not sure if its better mentioned elsewhere.
  669. [19:25:49] <tantek> csarven, for documenting issues raised towards improving microformats, one of the *-issues pages is best
  670. [19:26:22] <tantek> for documenting external criticisms which are often ill-informed, make poor assumptions, or are politically motivated, use the /criticism page
  671. [19:27:39] <tantek> the criticism page is essentially a to-do page for processing external critiques and debunking them
  672. [19:29:03] <csarven-> probably better fit under /criticism then.. i wanted to write a few points in response to something like ""My data can be mined by 'bad' people easier"
  673. [19:29:23] <csarven-> (which actually came up at the presentation i gave at work)
  674. [19:29:48] <tantek> if it is honest questions due to just not knowing, then discussing it here in IRC is usually a good start
  675. [19:29:52] <tantek> and then capturing in an FAQ
  676. [19:30:20] <csarven-> then:
  677. [19:30:37] <csarven-> * boosts semantics using standardised information
  678. [19:30:37] <csarven-> * information is already on the page
  679. [19:30:37] <csarven-> * technology is independent from how it may be used (good or bad)
  680. [19:30:44] <tantek> the /wiki/criticism page is only really for capturing links to *external* sites/pages with poor criticism that needs to be debunked / fisked.
  681. [19:31:08] <csarven-> * data shouldn't be public if you don't want it retrievable
  682. [19:31:08] <csarven-> * if worried then using images or flash would be better then using html for the content
  683. [19:31:18] <tantek> rather, microformats emphasize only marking up visible information
  684. [19:31:19] <csarven-> * creative commons license could help the readers better understand their rights with the information and what they are allowed to do with it
  685. [19:31:28] <csarven-> # Textual markup is what the Web is built from.
  686. [19:31:28] <csarven-> # FOAF and XFN take some of the guesswork out of interpreting markup.
  687. [19:31:28] <csarven-> * Microformats provide a mechanism for marking up visible content.
  688. [19:31:44] <tantek> csarven, it's actually better to raise the issue more generically
  689. [19:32:08] <tantek> like: what if I don't want people to know or get more information about me?
  690. [19:32:13] <csarven-> FOAF/XFN was meant to be an example (taking the guesswork out)
  691. [19:32:40] <csarven-> what do you mean by generically?
  692. [19:32:42] <tantek> conflating the two can be confusing since they only really overlap on "me" relations
  693. [19:32:55] <tantek> generically = "what if I don't want people to know or get more information about me?"
  694. [19:33:13] <tantek> and then point out that that starts with, don't publish such information about you on the Web
  695. [19:33:21] <tantek> nor about other people
  696. [19:33:33] <tantek> and this is where the visible aspect becomes very important
  697. [19:33:52] <tantek> publishing information visibly makes it verifiable, checkable, and easier to object to when inappropriate information is published.
  698. [19:34:00] <csarven-> the thing is the information can still be retrieved. scripts can be written (and is even used) to actually mine data.. the only difference is making it more obvious and pick up the information more efficently
  699. [19:34:08] <tantek> OTOH publishing information invisibly causes lots of problems
  700. [19:34:28] <tantek> csarven, the point is larger than that
  701. [19:34:34] <tantek> that's also a defensive response
  702. [19:34:38] <tantek> no need to be defensive
  703. [19:34:52] <tantek> because microformats actually emphasize more awareness and a better policy about this
  704. [19:35:00] <tantek> that's the point of following the generic line of reasoning
  705. [19:35:06] <tantek> into discussing visible vs. invisible
  706. [19:35:11] <csarven-> i see
  707. [19:35:23] <tantek> so, continuing from above
  708. [19:35:31] <tantek> OTOH publishing information invisibly causes lots of problems
  709. [19:35:51] <tantek> it's not verifiable and thus not reliable, often out of date, or spammed
  710. [19:36:06] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) has joined #microformats
  711. [19:36:19] <tantek> and because it's invisible, those that it affects and may want to object can't do so because they don't know to do so, they don't see it.
  712. [19:36:54] <tantek> for these reasons, microformats actively discourage publishing of invisible information period, and therefore have no interest in modeling or pushing the publishing of any more invisible information
  713. [19:37:15] <tantek> other approaches have unfortunately (whether intentionally or not) pushed for publishing lots of invisible metadata
  714. [19:37:28] <tantek> this has resulted in really bad surprises, when someone does index that data and expose
  715. [19:37:30] <tantek> expose it
  716. [19:38:24] <tantek> this is one of the reasons why microformats have the principle of "humans first, machines second"
  717. [19:38:48] <tantek> it's more important that the information be conveyed visibly to humans, than it be published in some random machine readable format
  718. [19:39:01] <tantek> turns out that information conveyed visibly to humans is also more trustworthy
  719. [19:39:23] <csarven-> for sure, but they are more concerned with the visible information. for instance, freelancer grab content from sites and republish parts of them elsewhere (it is a rights/licensing issue). what they are thinking is that /with/ microformats (and the tools which allow them to be picked up from the pages) it would be much easier/accurately to get a hold of this data
  720. [19:39:36] <tantek> thus microformats chooses to only markup/represent that visible information
  721. [19:39:43] <tantek> view source / copy-paste already makes it easy
  722. [19:39:59] <tantek> for that kind of scenario
  723. [19:40:50] <tantek> if anything, with microformats, and explicit representation of licenses (e.g. with rel-license), tools supporting microformats can make it much easier to point out when such data shouldn't be republished
  724. [19:41:26] <csarven-> right. i mean, using images or flash for instance would make it even more difficult to get a hold of this data but that doesn't mean one should move away from html. technology is somewhat independant from its use, however technology is designed to aid some human need
  725. [19:41:37] <tantek> right
  726. [19:43:51] <MrTopf> but I mean for "normal" humans it's still invisible, at least that it's marked up as such
  727. [19:44:23] <MrTopf> I was just thinking about this regarding the Social Graph API discussion as people might not be aware that their data is retrievable like that.
  728. [19:45:01] <MrTopf> which might not be a big deal for now but some policies might still needed to be discussed
  729. [19:46:11] <MrTopf> but I think I get the point of microformats now more after your explanation of the problems of invisible data :)
  730. [19:47:53] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25583 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Property Notes - replace potentially-real number with "555" equivalent (like example.com, for phone numbers)
  731. [19:50:45] * pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p5B126183.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
  732. [19:55:25] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  733. [19:55:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  734. [19:55:25] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
  735. [20:02:26] <InsomniaCity> umm, vCard question, since I can't think of anywhere else to ask it... were there any major changes between 2.1 and 3.0?
  736. [20:02:41] <InsomniaCity> as I've just noticed that X2V produces vCard 3.0
  737. [20:03:00] * drewinthehead is back and has caught up
  738. [20:03:07] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  739. [20:03:37] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
  740. [20:03:46] * SpikeUK (n=chatzill@host86-136-111-112.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  741. [20:03:49] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25584 * Tantek * (+9) Reverted edit of Aless, changed back to last version by ChristopheDucamp
  742. [20:04:12] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Aless" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  743. [20:04:38] <tantek> MrTopf indeed. And it's a reason why I've discouraged people from publishing (or indexing) invisible (meta)data.
  744. [20:04:55] <drewinthehead> InsomniaCity: I don't have an answer, but I see that Address Book on the mac offers a choice of both formats to the end user - that suggests there are non-insignificant differences.
  745. [20:06:03] <MrTopf> but isn't it still somewhat of a hack, repurposing CSS classes? I mean not that I know a better method then and it seems to get some more widespread use now which is good
  746. [20:06:13] * glebleu (n=glebleu@63.82.3.130) Quit ()
  747. [20:06:42] <tantek> MrTopf, they aren't CSS classes, they are HTML classes.
  748. [20:06:57] <tantek> would be good to add this hCard example to the hCard examples page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/khimscho/1328581455/
  749. [20:07:40] <MrTopf> but they are still usually used for CSS styles ;-)
  750. [20:07:56] <MrTopf> like in Plone I wanted to add some markup but noticed that we actually have a vcard class already
  751. [20:07:59] <tantek> and unobtrusive scripting
  752. [20:08:13] <tantek> CSS and scripting are just two of many possible uses for semantic class names
  753. [20:08:33] <MrTopf> which results in the interesting fact that events in Plone are now inside a vcard class
  754. [20:08:36] <tantek> the practice of using class names to represent semantics predates microformats, and thus microformats built upon this established practice
  755. [20:08:39] <MrTopf> so not sure how to change this
  756. [20:09:57] * yvesr is now known as songbird
  757. [20:10:02] * songbird is now known as moustaki
  758. [20:12:10] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) has joined #microformats
  759. [20:18:03] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) Quit ()
  760. [20:19:18] * finke (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  761. [20:20:28] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
  762. [20:21:14] * moustaki is now known as yvesr
  763. [20:23:19] <mkaply> anyone know of examples of vcards in asian languages?
  764. [20:23:47] <tantek> mkaply, I think there were some Japanese examples on the hcard-examples page, but I haven't been able to find them since all the splitting going on
  765. [20:25:03] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25585 * AndyMabbett * (+501) 2008 - is "n" optional or mandatory?
  766. [20:28:24] <csarven-> Is it the OS settings that intervenes with encoding on .vcf files? When I export an hCard that contains characters like &#233; &eacute; or �, Operator retains those values in .vcf. When you open up the .vcf file however, encoding is lost and it pukes out something
  767. [20:29:38] <tantek> csarven when you say "when you open the .vcf" document which application you are opening it with on the http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations page
  768. [20:32:22] <csarven-> Thunderbird 1.5, Windows Contacts on Windows Vista, and Outlook (although I can't remember which version it was)
  769. [20:33:10] <csarven-> err Thunderbird 2
  770. [20:35:47] <tantek> definitely add that to the wiki page
  771. [20:36:00] <tantek> and document any issues you found with that implementation
  772. [20:37:23] <csarven-> appears to be okay in Mac Leapord 4.1's Address Book
  773. [20:38:12] <csarven-> re: http://lebelage.ca/
  774. [20:40:08] <csarven-> i think documentation on different vCard versions and the applications supporting them would be handy
  775. [20:40:27] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  776. [20:40:41] <csarven-> i.e. desktop, handheld..
  777. [20:44:14] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25586 * AndyMabbett * (+849) 2008 - optimisation does not work for some or all Asian names
  778. [20:49:57] <tantek> csarven - document the applications, then only if the applications treat different vCard versions differently, document those differences for that application only. vCard apps today should only really be bothering with RFC2426 which defines vCard 3.0.
  779. [20:50:50] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25587 * AndyMabbett * (+69) 2008 - Cpmment from people fluent in such languages would be welcome
  780. [20:51:48] <mkaply> Another reason that nickname is bad - asian names
  781. [20:52:17] <csarven-> heh
  782. [20:53:59] <mkaply> We should really totally give up on the nickname optimization. It's just bad
  783. [20:54:31] <tantek> mkaply - why? it's often the only way to constructing an hCard to references to people on the web
  784. [20:55:22] <mkaply> because In other languages, names are one word. So you can't assume they are nicknames. If someone is going to bother putting hcard around a handle anyway, why wouldn't they just add nickname?
  785. [20:56:00] <mkaply> OK, so we've already hit a snag with not allowing nested microformat stuff to bubble up.
  786. [20:56:08] <mkaply> I guess I have to exclude rel microformats
  787. [20:56:18] <mkaply> Since people have an fn specificed as a rel tag
  788. [20:56:22] <mkaply> (tantek's homepage)
  789. [20:56:37] <tantek> mkaply, the nesting rules apply to compound microformats
  790. [20:56:53] <mkaply> tantek: OK. I'll fix that
  791. [20:56:56] <tantek> not elemental
  792. [20:57:07] <tantek> elemental microformats themselves state their scope
  793. [20:57:16] <tantek> e.g. look at what rel-tag says vs. rel-license etc.
  794. [20:57:32] <mkaply> Basically what the nickname optimisation says is that anyone with a single name, that's their nickname. What about people in india with one name? Or asian names where there are no spaces?
  795. [20:57:34] <tantek> (mkaply, hence why I listed them in hcard-parsing)
  796. [20:57:50] <tantek> mkaply, then those should be marked up with given-name and family-name
  797. [20:58:05] <mkaply> then nicknames should be marked up with nickname
  798. [20:58:06] <tantek> optimizations aren't meant to help everyone, just common cases we've seen on theweb
  799. [20:58:34] <mkaply> common cases because you are in america with english speakers
  800. [20:58:47] <mkaply> India and China have way more people with way more names.
  801. [21:00:01] <tantek> so in those cases, we should just make sure that the optimizations don't do any damage
  802. [21:00:22] <tantek> if you can provide an example (link) to where nickname optimization is causing a problem, then we can better take a look at it\
  803. [21:01:39] <mkaply> Every Asian Wikipedia entry
  804. [21:01:46] <mkaply> http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E5%A7%86%C2%B7%E5%85%8B%E9%AD%AF%E6%96%AF
  805. [21:01:54] <mkaply> Mabbett just posted it to hcard-issues
  806. [21:02:47] <tantek> what is that "·" character in 湯姆·克魯斯
  807. [21:02:58] <tantek> is that a name separator?
  808. [21:03:07] <tantek> perhaps we just need to add support for that
  809. [21:03:38] <mkaply> Wouldn't handle indian names. I have a friend who's name is Ravisankar
  810. [21:03:44] <mkaply> That's his whole name
  811. [21:03:50] <tantek> (from that wiki page)
  812. [21:04:11] <Jedi_> tantek: yes, it's name separator
  813. [21:05:03] <tantek> mkaply, having your nickname be the same as your name isn't a problem is it?
  814. [21:05:50] <mkaply> We're inferring incorrect information from the fn. That's all.
  815. [21:14:35] <mkaply> ARGH.
  816. [21:14:40] <mkaply> What if fn is contained in an adr.
  817. [21:14:47] <mkaply> This is going to be harder than I thought
  818. [21:15:05] <mkaply> because adr is technically a microformat
  819. [21:15:19] <mkaply> so the fn wouldn't go up from the adr to the parent vcard
  820. [21:15:55] <mkaply> tantek: that's for you. These are from your page
  821. [21:17:12] <tantek> I kind of thought this was obvious, but perhaps we need to explain that adr and geo, when contained inside an hCard are not their own microformat.
  822. [21:17:17] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25588 * AndyMabbett * (+62) better method of marking up notes
  823. [21:17:54] <mkaply> That's easy to say
  824. [21:18:02] <tantek> since they are obviously derived from hCard
  825. [21:18:08] <mkaply> Coding it is another thing entirely
  826. [21:18:12] <tantek> and are properties listed in hCard
  827. [21:18:32] <tantek> treat them as properties of hCard first, and their own microformats second
  828. [21:18:40] <mkaply> So why was adr even separated into a microformat?
  829. [21:20:26] <tantek> because there were examples of unnamed addresses in the wild that made sense to represent as adr
  830. [21:20:28] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25589 * AndyMabbett * (+60) Property List - IDs
  831. [21:20:29] <tantek> similar with geo
  832. [21:20:31] <tantek> often in a list
  833. [21:21:19] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25590 * AndyMabbett * (+36) Property Notes - links
  834. [21:21:40] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25591 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Property Notes - #
  835. [21:23:36] <mkaply> OK, worked around.
  836. [21:23:56] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@79.144.91.147) has joined #microformats
  837. [21:25:57] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25592 * Tantek * (+68) removed sibling parenthetical expressions which look awkward, used more of a traditional footnote style, use more semantic ids
  838. [21:31:43] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) has joined #microformats
  839. [21:32:00] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  840. [21:33:16] * dbaron (n=dbaron@corp-241.mountainview.mozilla.com) has joined #microformats
  841. [21:43:49] * e_s_p (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  842. [21:43:57] <e_s_p> Hi, everybody!
  843. [21:44:40] <e_s_p> I have a Web request
  844. [21:44:49] <e_s_p> If someone has write access to http://gmpg.org/xfn/more ...
  845. [21:44:58] <e_s_p> It would be nice to add a link to the Google Social Graph API
  846. [21:45:26] <e_s_p> http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
  847. [21:45:42] <tantek> e_s_p could you add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-implementations for now?
  848. [21:46:03] <tantek> it is likely that gmpg.org/xfn/more will in the future simply link to microformats wiki pages
  849. [21:48:26] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) Quit ()
  850. [21:49:59] <e_s_p> good point
  851. [21:50:10] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) has joined #microformats
  852. [21:51:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  853. [21:52:15] <mfbot> [[xfn-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-implementations&diff=0&oldid=25593 * Evan * (+130) new implementations - Google Social Graph API
  854. [21:52:20] * csarven (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  855. [21:52:20] * csarven- (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  856. [21:52:21] <e_s_p> done!
  857. [21:52:44] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) Quit ()
  858. [21:52:56] <tantek> thanks e_s_p!
  859. [21:54:07] <mfbot> [[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25594 * Evan * (+32) evanpro == e_s_p
  860. [21:54:43] * ianloic (i=yakk@glub.dreamhostps.com) has joined #microformats
  861. [22:02:25] * mkaply (n=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-92112f7d112d1e12) Quit ("Leaving")
  862. [22:05:41] * SpikeUK (n=chatzill@host86-136-111-112.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.80 [Firefox 2.0.0.11/2007112718]")
  863. [22:05:45] <mfbot> [[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=25595 * Tantek * (+529) Dopplr should support hCalendar subscribe, as in subscribing data *into* Dopplr, resorted section a bit for relevance, actionability
  864. [22:08:58] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25596 * AndyMabbett * (-52) Property List - rm microfonts to improve accessibility
  865. [22:09:35] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25597 * Tantek * (+52) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  866. [22:10:16] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25598 * Tantek * (-1) prev revert was because using font-size:smaller is not an accessibility problem. See Joe Clark's writings on the matter.
  867. [22:29:39] * finke_ (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
  868. [22:37:37] * wzajac (n=wzajac@195.136.192.99) has joined #microformats
  869. [22:43:41] * gl_ (n=glebleu@63.82.3.130) has joined #microformats
  870. [22:44:03] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25599 * AndyMabbett * (-52) revert: Clarke offers no justification for using f-s:smaller on already-smaller superscrtipt; thereby creating minuscuse links which are hard for some people to see and for other people to click
  871. [22:44:42] * finke (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  872. [22:45:09] * finke (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  873. [22:48:34] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25600 * Tantek * (+52) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
  874. [22:49:40] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25601 * Tantek * (+1) prev revert - Font sizing is just not your problem as an author. See http://joeclark.org/appearances/atmedia2007/#fonts
  875. [22:53:34] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@host26-176-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) Quit ("Leaving.")
  876. [22:53:36] * iand (n=iand@cpc2-nthc3-0-0-cust770.nrth.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  877. [22:53:36] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  878. [22:53:44] * DavidMead (n=DaveMead@adcomcommunications-gw0.cust.expedient.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  879. [22:58:40] * mattis^ (n=mattis^@host26-176-dynamic.56-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) has joined #microformats
  880. [23:00:22] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  881. [23:00:44] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  882. [23:00:47] * finke_ (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  883. [23:08:23] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) Quit ("Leaving.")
  884. [23:10:43] <mfbot> [[accessibility-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility-issues&diff=0&oldid=25602 * AndyMabbett * (+864) Accessibility of this wiki - miniscule single-character links
  885. [23:15:34] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  886. [23:20:02] * finke (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  887. [23:20:30] * finke (n=Finke@dsl081-039-205.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  888. [23:23:51] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) Quit ()
  889. [23:32:00] * juvabien_ (n=juvabien@gre92-3-81-56-50-45.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  890. [23:34:01] * e_s_p (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  891. [23:35:06] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@79.144.91.147) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  892. [23:35:11] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  893. [23:35:30] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  894. [23:39:16] * csarven (n=nevrasc@modemcable130.251-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  895. [23:39:16] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
  896. [23:48:19] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) Quit ("brb")
  897. [23:48:25] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) has joined #microformats
  898. [23:48:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  899. [23:48:25] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  900. [23:48:46] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@217.197.218.40) has joined #microformats
  901. [23:49:46] * juvabien_ (n=juvabien@gre92-3-81-56-50-45.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  902. [23:53:29] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) Quit ()
  903. [23:53:39] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) has joined #microformats
  904. [23:53:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.