IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-02-07
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:11:10] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [00:16:38] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [00:18:46] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25557 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+665) 2007 -
- [00:19:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25558 * Guillaume Lebleu * (-665) removed issue from 2007 -
- [00:20:33] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25559 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+666) Added issue to 2008 -
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- [00:41:26] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
- [00:47:10] <mfbot>
[[namespaces-inconsistency-issue]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-inconsistency-issue&diff=0&oldid=25560 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+69) Sympathetic to the Cause -
- [00:49:21] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-user-profile-authoring * Tantek * (+220) stub
- [00:49:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profile]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-supporting-user-profile * Tantek * (+44)
- [00:50:03] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=25561 * Tantek * (+14) change from hCard authoring to a more specific how to page for hCard user profiles
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- [00:52:47] <jibot>
danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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- [00:59:48] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [01:02:20] <tantek>
noticing that both Operator and the Safari microformats plugin doesn't appear to treat nested hCards nested in other hCards as opaque
- [01:02:49] <tantek>
anyone seen mkaply or the Safari microformats plugin author anytime recently?
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- [01:51:09] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-rfc2426]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-rfc2426&diff=0&oldid=25562 * Tantek * (+224) minor fix to 3.5.4 AGENT Type Definition Example 2, remove unnecessary "n" property, note hCard is valid due to implied N rule. prefix "Example" headings w prop name for better permalinking
- [02:05:36] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=25563 * Tantek * (+1249) add explicit note about properties inside nested hCards only applying to the nested hCards, not any containing hCards, similarly nested hCalendar, hReview, xFolk. not finding nested hCard properties
- [02:07:45] <tantek>
note that this "opacity" parsing rule has been implied for a very long time by the examples documenting the AGENT property, so this is not a new rule.
- [02:07:59] <tantek>
however it should have been documented explicitly in hCard parsing
- [02:08:07] <tantek>
and now it has been: new sections: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#nested_hCards and http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#not_finding_nested_hCard_properties
- [02:17:12] <hober>
just to quickly clarify, the opacity parsing rule applies to microformat X with regards to nested instances of X
- [02:17:34] <hober>
(as opposed to nested instances of any, even future, microformat)
- [02:28:04] <mfbot>
[[hCard-XFN-supporting-friends-lists]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard-XFN-supporting-friends-lists * Tantek * (+49)
- [02:30:25] <mfbot>
[[hCard XFN supporting friends lists]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard_XFN_supporting_friends_lists * Tantek * (+48)
- [02:30:46] <mfbot>
[[hCard supporting user profiles]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hCard_supporting_user_profiles * Tantek * (+43)
- [02:32:37] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25564 * Tantek * (+2063) expanded quite a bit with specific notes from experience with social network implementers
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- [02:53:52] <calcnerd256>
hello
- [02:53:54] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25565 * Tantek * (+90) mapping community site friends to specific link
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danbri is that foaf guy from http://danbri.org/
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- [05:56:34] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25566 * CFinke * (+40)
- [06:00:00] <mfbot>
[[User:CFinke]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:CFinke * CFinke * (+72)
- [06:03:30] * finke is now known as Finke
- [06:07:04] <Finke>
?def Finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
- [06:07:04] <jibot>
Finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
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- [08:17:36] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [09:05:50] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:27:27] <jibot>
bengee is Benjamin Nowack (http://bnode.org/)
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- [09:33:24] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [09:52:15] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [10:03:36] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [11:31:46] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [11:36:32] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25567 * AndyMabbett * (+87) 2008 - "role" ioptimisation exemption also applies to title
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- [12:17:44] <InsomniaCity>
So, how are the nested components such as VALARM supported in hCalendar?
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- [12:39:17] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-spaces]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-spaces&diff=0&oldid=25568 * AndyMabbett * (+212) Flickr - flickr "cleans" tags
- [12:53:02] <mfbot>
[[User talk:CFinke]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User_talk:CFinke * AndyMabbett * (+73) Welcome!
- [12:56:18] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25569 * AndyMabbett * (-17) no edits for several hours; insert presumably-ommitted "who"
- [12:56:49] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25570 * AndyMabbett * (-1) find the minimally enclosing element - fmt for clarity
- [13:01:05] <mfbot>
[[hcard-user-profile-authoring]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-user-profile-authoring&diff=0&oldid=25571 * AndyMabbett * (+92) ...or avatar; grammar tweaks; use "fn" to ensure that hCard based on partial instructions is valid
- [13:02:51] <mfbot>
[[existing-rel-values]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=existing-rel-values&diff=0&oldid=25572 * AndyMabbett * (+79) POSH usage - rel-fan
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- [13:35:37] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [14:32:33] <mfbot>
[[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=0&oldid=25573 * DarrenBounds * (-142) Moribund -
- [14:33:39] <mfbot>
[[exploratory-discussions]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=exploratory-discussions&diff=0&oldid=25574 * DarrenBounds * (+180) other active -
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- [14:37:35] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [15:36:37] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25575 * AndyMabbett * (+592) 2008 - no "n" optimisation on two-word nicknames
- [15:37:18] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25576 * AndyMabbett * (+15) </nowiki></code>
- [15:37:49] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25577 * AndyMabbett * (+1) 2008 - )
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- [15:46:54] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
- [15:48:15] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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- [15:48:15] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
- [15:48:21] <drewinthehead>
greetings
- [15:48:41] <BenneWarde>
Hey Drew
- [15:48:51] <BenneWarde>
mkaply: Can we pick your brains on a parsing issue?
- [15:48:58] * BenneWarde is now known as BenWard
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- [15:50:06] <mkaply>
BenWard: please do. That's all my brain is about right now
- [15:50:49] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25578 * AndyMabbett * (+0) ?
- [15:51:39] <BenWard>
Right. Need clarification on the rules on parsing properties with a child element with class="value". I'm under the impression that it applies to all properties, so for <span class="anything">Foo <span class="value">Bar</span></span>, ‘anything’ is ‘Bar’.
- [15:52:21] <drewinthehead>
and I think it sound plausible, but show-me-the-wiki applies :)
- [15:52:28] <InsomniaCity>
mkaply: Operator doesn't seem to handle malformed HTML too gracefull... is that the intended behaviour?
- [15:52:54] <InsomniaCity>
*gracefully
- [15:53:06] <mkaply>
InsomniaCity: There's really not much I can do with malformed HTML. I'm asking the browser to give me the right thing
- [15:53:48] <mkaply>
BenWard: I believe that is the case, and I have coded to that. Of course that creates problems because hCard uses "value" for other things as well (tel and email)
- [15:54:28] <BenWard>
It's definitely been recommended to people on uf-discuss too, as a way to specify properties precisely
- [15:54:46] <BenWard>
(We use it on Kelkoo on the price property, too)
- [15:55:32] <drewinthehead>
this is all news to me
- [15:55:39] <drewinthehead>
SMTW!
- [15:56:37] <BenWard>
What happens if you have <span class="property-one">Hello, <span class="property-two">are you <span class="value">my friend</span>?</span>
- [15:56:37] <BenWard>
property-two is 'my friend'
- [15:56:37] <BenWard>
property-one is… ?
- [15:56:52] <mkaply>
BenWard: When I implemented it, I implemented it generically. IT seemed silly to me to onlt apply value to certain things
- [15:57:24] <mkaply>
probably both will be "my friend"
- [15:57:32] <mkaply>
that's not terrbily valid..
- [15:57:34] <mkaply>
let me check
- [15:57:40] <drewinthehead>
it would seem to open the floodgates for all sorts of complex scenarios
- [15:58:17] <mkaply>
It does, definitely
- [15:58:41] <drewinthehead>
if property-one is also 'my friend' how far do we cascade? is it turtles all the way down?
- [15:59:04] <mkaply>
yep. Both get my friend.
- [15:59:06] <mkaply>
Same as X2V
- [15:59:29] <mkaply>
IF you look logically at what that is saying, it makes sense.
- [15:59:36] <mkaply>
property-one was never closed
- [15:59:40] <mkaply>
and value trumps content
- [15:59:56] <mkaply>
We have to assume at some level people are going to do this "correctly" as long as we document what "correctly" is
- [16:00:25] <mkaply>
This is why RDF parsing is so easy and microformat parsing is so hard
- [16:00:31] <mkaply>
s/RDF/RDFA
- [16:02:21] <drewinthehead>
so if i have an hCalendar instance with an embedded hCard, which in turn has a tel with a value, does that value become the value of hCalendar's location?
- [16:02:52] <drewinthehead>
it's a descendant
- [16:03:31] <drewinthehead>
or does it only apply for a child?
- [16:03:32] <mkaply>
Not anymore. I just put code in Operator so that microformats will never inherit from another.
- [16:03:52] <mkaply>
IT was a very broken model
- [16:04:04] <mkaply>
So properties stop at the parent microformat
- [16:04:15] <mkaply>
picture shit:
- [16:04:19] <mkaply>
That was BAD
- [16:04:21] <mkaply>
picture this
- [16:04:22] <BenWard>
mkaply: Does that not require Operator to know about all microformats though?
- [16:04:36] <mkaply>
BenWard: yes, we only stop at know microformat now
- [16:05:04] <BenWard>
So, a future, unknown microformat that uses class=value would still override a parent property.
- [16:05:09] <BenWard>
OK
- [16:05:19] <mkaply>
http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323155
- [16:05:42] <mkaply>
BenWard: only if it was nested inside of another parent property - which isn't the norm
- [16:06:37] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25579 * Aless * (-9)
- [16:07:02] <mkaply>
Personally I dislike the value thing (especially because it has a bad name because of tel and email) but I understand why it is needed
- [16:07:15] <mkaply>
especially when you are using microformats in a paragrph for instance
- [16:08:45] <drewinthehead>
so as far as we know all this isn't documented anywhere?
- [16:08:56] <mkaply>
value in general?
- [16:09:10] <drewinthehead>
yeah ... this value pattern
- [16:09:37] <drewinthehead>
http://microformats.org/wiki/value-pattern doesn't exist, and I can't find it in any of the parsing pages
- [16:09:44] * mkaply didn't realize drew was doing a php parser
- [16:10:07] <BenWard>
So, mkaply, this would cause severe breakage? http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323156
- [16:10:28] <BenWard>
(err… ignore the <h1> in that code… oops)
- [16:10:31] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: see value exceprting mentioned in presentations
- [16:11:22] <mkaply>
BenWard: unfortunately yes. And I don't think there's a good way to fix that. Except rewuiring values be children of the item for instance.
- [16:11:32] <mkaply>
A lot of this stuff is very poorly documented
- [16:12:07] <mkaply>
drewinthehead, http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting
- [16:12:25] <mkaply>
but that example doesn't work at all
- [16:12:41] <mkaply>
as a matter of fact, that example is useless. Since that's not a value excepting example
- [16:12:55] <drewinthehead>
yeah, i'm doing that for hcard, but i wasn't aware of the wider special value of value
- [16:13:39] <mkaply>
This makes me wonder where value excerpting came from at all since the only example in the wiki isn't actually an exampel of value excerpting - it's an example of the value subproperty on tel
- [16:14:35] <drewinthehead>
kingryan has an example - slide 13: http://theryanking.com/presentations/2007/www2007-microformats-parsing/
- [16:15:05] <mkaply>
yeah. So does roger costello in his stuff
- [16:15:35] <drewinthehead>
doesn't make it fact though ;)
- [16:15:47] <mkaply>
Nope. That's really interesting.
- [16:16:31] <drewinthehead>
the thought of having to look for descendants is making my skin crawl
- [16:16:49] <drewinthehead>
children i could cope with
- [16:16:55] <mkaply>
I just do a getElementsByClassName on anything with value.
- [16:16:58] <mkaply>
and use it.
- [16:17:04] <mkaply>
in the DOM world
- [16:17:13] <drewinthehead>
what a luxurious place it is :)
- [16:17:35] <drewinthehead>
what about this issue of cascading into nested formats?
- [16:19:23] <mkaply>
(this is new code) after I get all the proeprty elements, I check the parent microformat of the element and if it is not the same as the one I'm dealing with, I ignore it
- [16:19:34] <mkaply>
So an fn in a nested vcard wouldn't accidentally go into a parent vcard
- [16:19:36] <drewinthehead>
hkit relies on being loaded with the profiles of the microformats you're looking for - so I have no way to know when I've stumbled across another format and should stop.
- [16:19:54] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: yep. Operator is the same way.
- [16:20:08] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: in hindsight, maybe we should have had class="microformat hCard"
- [16:20:16] <mkaply>
So we can identify all mfs
- [16:20:31] <drewinthehead>
so do you have some kind of is-decendent-of function to check which format it belongs to?
- [16:21:11] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: I use XPath. IT's a really ugly XPath statement that looks for the first parent with a given className or attName/Value combination
- [16:21:35] <drewinthehead>
ok, that'd work
- [16:21:38] <drewinthehead>
hmm
- [16:22:12] <mkaply>
So basically the Operator architecture is: create a generic parsing structure for microformats
- [16:22:34] <mkaply>
Then in the definition for individual microformats, allow them to override how individual properties are retrieved where there are exceptions
- [16:22:50] <mkaply>
For instance, the knowledge of how to construct a nickname is in hcard itself.
- [16:22:59] <drewinthehead>
right
- [16:23:03] <mkaply>
But the knowledge of how to resolve include patterns is in the parser
- [16:23:28] <mkaply>
This has worked so far. The biggest hurdles along the way were the value problems with value excerpting vs. value in tel/email
- [16:23:31] <drewinthehead>
this all sounds remarkably familiar.
- [16:23:57] <mkaply>
validation was tricky. Some microformat have "required stuff" some don't (adr comes to mind)
- [16:24:26] <mkaply>
I also ended up creating custom getters for specific data types (dataTime, anyURI, email, tel, HTML, float, microformat)
- [16:24:40] <mkaply>
So in the microformat definition you could specify the type of data and I could retrieve it properly
- [16:25:05] <mkaply>
There's also one problem that is still unsolved - should thinks like NOTE in a vcard or DESCRIPTION in an hcard be retrieved as text or HTML
- [16:25:32] <mkaply>
Most web pages have them as HTML, but just removing the HTML produces ugliness. There's a text parser described in the docs, but good luck writing that.
- [16:25:35] <mkaply>
text parsing HTML is hard
- [16:26:31] <BenWard>
Mmmmmm… interesting
- [16:26:51] <BenWard>
Well, since it's being used (and parsed) we should probably try to spec it.
- [16:26:58] <drewinthehead>
Yeah, where you have the luxury of a browser DOM, I have the luxury of being middleware :)
- [16:27:08] <mkaply>
What I did in Operator is allow you to call .toHTML on text
- [16:27:16] <mkaply>
and it gets the original HTML
- [16:27:31] <drewinthehead>
BenWard: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerpting ?
- [16:27:34] <mkaply>
ISO dates were painful as well
- [16:27:51] <mkaply>
Doing time zone conversions. Standardizing dates. etc.
- [16:28:39] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: my primary profile is hcard at the moment, so I've not run into those yet :/
- [16:28:47] <drewinthehead>
wish me luck
- [16:28:53] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: Birthday.
- [16:29:18] * BenWard wonders if ‘only parse value="" as a direct descendent, or when nested in elements that do not have a class attribute would be the most feasible…
- [16:29:31] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: not for 2 weeks, why do you ask ;)
- [16:29:45] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: ISO date in hcard - birthday :)
- [16:29:59] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: yeah, I was ignoring the question :D
- [16:30:02] <mkaply>
Should it indicate exact moment of birth? Just day? Just year?
- [16:30:18] * mkaply decides to put his exact moment of birth in his vcard.
- [16:30:23] <mkaply>
So everyone can celebrate
- [16:30:29] <drewinthehead>
and include the URI for the video on YouTube
- [16:31:12] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: Incidentally this is a problem in the mf process.
- [16:31:15] <mkaply>
Here's how it works in w3.
- [16:31:26] <mkaply>
Designers design completely insane wacky ideas.
- [16:31:35] <mkaply>
They have meetings where implementors are involved.
- [16:31:44] <mkaply>
Implementors say "you guys are smoking something - you can't do this"
- [16:32:02] <mkaply>
lots of errata are published because the designers created something impossible.
- [16:32:06] * levitation_ (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) has joined #microformats
- [16:32:14] <mkaply>
And the various implementors work together to "do the right thing"(TM)
- [16:32:35] <mkaply>
With microformats, we have a wiki that is changeable, people coming up with new ideas constantly - some really good
- [16:32:53] <mkaply>
And everyone doing something different with implementation, but very little communication.
- [16:33:01] * DanWrong__ (n=DanWrong@87.113.94.69.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) Quit ("A B C ya and I wouldn't want to be ya")
- [16:33:17] <mkaply>
When FF3 comes out, it will have my vision of a Microformats parser. I sure hope I'm right :)
- [16:33:23] * bengee (n=bengee@ip-62-143-209-61.1411M-CUD12K-01.ish.de) has left #microformats
- [16:33:36] <drewinthehead>
i tried to object over the hcard fn=n optimization, but failed :)
- [16:34:01] <mkaply>
yeah, the fn n optimization is horrible. As is the nickname optimization. It's very Eurocentric
- [16:34:07] <mkaply>
I have a friend who has one name. It's not his nickname
- [16:35:08] <mkaply>
And just because an fn has two strings doesn't make it a first and last name
- [16:35:14] <mkaply>
We shouldn't try to second guess folks.
- [16:35:44] <drewinthehead>
I made second guessing an art form!
- [16:36:11] <drewinthehead>
If proof were needed of how bad it is to try and second guess: http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/best-guess/
- [16:37:08] <mkaply>
You are kidding me, right?
- [16:37:14] <mkaply>
You're trying to figure out MR?
- [16:37:17] <mkaply>
You are CRAZY
- [16:37:20] <mkaply>
Youi'll LOVE this then
- [16:37:37] <drewinthehead>
It's an exercise ;)
- [16:38:06] <mkaply>
OK, do this
- [16:38:11] <mkaply>
go here
- [16:38:12] <mkaply>
https://www.amtrakguestrewards.com/index.cfm?category=enroll&loc=enroll_start.cfm&rsdone2=%253A8%2520M%252AW%255BGE%255FLG%253F%255D%2540%252F7%2525M%253BD%252E%253DH%252F%2529%253AQ%25217%253D3%2527S%2540%2524%2520%250A
- [16:38:23] <mkaply>
Do you get a button that says "start the enrollment process"
- [16:38:56] <drewinthehead>
I do
- [16:39:00] <mkaply>
Click on it.
- [16:39:05] <mkaply>
Then pop down Title.
- [16:39:07] <mkaply>
This is AWESOME
- [16:39:26] <drewinthehead>
I have a much better list than that :D
- [16:40:03] <drewinthehead>
I think I got mine from BA
- [16:40:08] <drewinthehead>
Heh
- [16:40:42] <mkaply>
You handle all those? :)
- [16:40:52] <mkaply>
King
- [16:40:53] <mkaply>
Prince
- [16:40:53] <drewinthehead>
yup
- [16:41:00] <drewinthehead>
First Lieutient
- [16:41:08] <drewinthehead>
His Highness
- [16:41:22] <drewinthehead>
Embajadora
- [16:41:33] <drewinthehead>
Air Vice Marshal
- [16:41:36] <drewinthehead>
the lot!
- [16:41:40] <drewinthehead>
and suffixes too
- [16:43:04] <mkaply>
You're thinking WAY too much about this
- [16:43:48] <drewinthehead>
possibly...
- [16:44:27] <drewinthehead>
i appear to have lost control of my computer. back in a moment.
- [16:44:30] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
- [16:48:05] * levitation[A] (n=levitati@noorus.aklubi.ee) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [16:49:17] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) has joined #microformats
- [16:49:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [16:49:17] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [16:50:44] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [16:50:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
- [16:51:15] <drewinthehead>
that was weird ... i lost the ability to switch applications
- [16:53:09] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: things get really fun: http://tools.microformatic.com/query/xhtml/best-guess/The+Rt+Hon+Lord+Drew+McLellan+MB+BChir+Cantab
- [16:53:36] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: what are you doing about plural properties? Are you always exposing them as an array?
- [16:53:57] <mkaply>
That's awesome
- [16:54:14] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: yes, as an array
- [16:54:49] <tantek>
good morning
- [16:54:54] <mkaply>
ok. Good. That was a problem with one of the microformats->JSON implementations
- [16:55:16] <mkaply>
tantek: You've missed the most activity this channel has had in months
- [16:55:25] <tantek>
it sound like it!
- [16:55:35] <drewinthehead>
(it's usually when I start giving myself an honorific prefix of The Rt Hon Lord that tantek picks me up for theoretical examples)
- [16:56:22] <drewinthehead>
mkaply: because I generate just a PHP array, using hkit to output JSON is trivial
- [16:56:52] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: Some guy was selling lordships. Make it official
- [16:57:04] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [16:57:17] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) has joined #microformats
- [16:57:34] <drewinthehead>
<?php echo json_encode($output_from_hkit); ?>
- [16:57:36] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [16:57:46] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: actually in FF3 it should be easy as well. I think they added JSON encoding.
- [16:58:48] <drewinthehead>
so the elephant in the room is still this issue of knowing when we've found an unknown microformat. a known unknown.
- [16:59:12] <drewinthehead>
for value excerpting, i mean
- [16:59:22] <mkaply>
not just that, the word value is kind of common unfortunately
- [17:00:03] <tantek>
indeed
- [17:00:09] <tantek>
kind of like the word title
- [17:02:02] <drewinthehead>
the word elephant is less commonly used, but i suspect that's of little help here.
- [17:02:55] <mkaply>
elephant exceprting?
- [17:03:02] <mkaply>
class="trunk"
- [17:03:05] <mkaply>
class="ear"
- [17:03:08] <mkaply>
class="tail"
- [17:03:16] <mkaply>
Combine to make the whole elephant?
- [17:03:35] <drewinthehead>
just keep your mouse away from it.
- [17:04:41] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-36-151-200.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:04:41] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [17:05:00] <drewinthehead>
pnhChris is here ... we'd better behave
- [17:05:17] * pnhChris looks around
- [17:05:45] <drewinthehead>
so I could maintain a list of known root class names, but installations in the wild will go out of date
- [17:06:02] <drewinthehead>
and the alternative is phoning home (or phoning a friend)
- [17:06:46] <drewinthehead>
unless it's a user option. (the 'ask the audience' method)
- [17:06:58] <mkaply>
Or we could discuss not nesting value exceprting
- [17:07:18] <mkaply>
tantek: everyone talks about value excerpting, but the example on the wiki isn't even an example of value excerpting
- [17:07:19] <drewinthehead>
or limiting it to children? is that even realistic?
- [17:07:21] <mkaply>
where did it come from?
- [17:08:25] <tantek>
phone numbers
- [17:09:56] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Value_excerpting
- [17:10:54] <mkaply>
But that's not really value exceprting is it? value and type are just sub properties of tel
- [17:11:00] <mkaply>
at least that's the way I define it in my microformats
- [17:12:07] <tantek>
note the case of when there is no explicit class="value"
- [17:12:10] <drewinthehead>
the most documentation I can find is in Slide #13 of this presentation by kingryan http://theryanking.com/presentations/2007/www2007-microformats-parsing/
- [17:12:41] <mkaply>
well I don't know about drew's parser, but regardless of what you put in your mf
- [17:12:48] <mkaply>
tel[i].value is the number
- [17:12:56] <mkaply>
Since there had to be a standard way to get the number
- [17:13:27] <mkaply>
and tel[i].type is the type (if specified)
- [17:13:39] <tantek>
that seems reasonable
- [17:13:57] * iand (n=iand@62.172.77.66) Quit (Success)
- [17:14:18] <mkaply>
but all the examples of value excerpting show it used for names
- [17:14:18] <tantek>
mkaply, the same could apply to the "email" property though rarely will people bother with a non-internet email
- [17:14:43] <mkaply>
like <span class="fn>My name is <span class="value">Mike</span> and my last name is <span class="value">Kaply</span></span<
- [17:14:55] <mkaply>
(examples in presentations)
- [17:15:05] <mkaply>
actually, that won't work. Need a space in there
- [17:15:08] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Value_excerpting
- [17:15:10] <mkaply>
like <span class="fn>My name is <span class="value">Mike</span> and my last name is <span class="value"> Kaply</span></span>
- [17:15:44] <mkaply>
That one is using the tel again which isn't the best example since tel is defined as having a value subproperty
- [17:17:01] <tantek>
ah, you are looking for examples of value excerpting on properties that do not define an explicit "value" subproperty?
- [17:17:07] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:18:55] <mkaply>
tantek: yep. We were discussing that you could run into scenarios where you picked up the "value" of a child node.
- [17:19:17] <mkaply>
http://pastebin.mozilla.org/323156
- [17:19:35] <tantek>
of a descendant?
- [17:19:53] <mkaply>
yep
- [17:20:15] <tantek>
i think there are two possible problems here
- [17:20:24] <tantek>
first is the hunknown opacity problem
- [17:21:20] <tantek>
for which there has been some thinking/analysis under the subject of "mfo"
- [17:21:23] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples
- [17:21:35] <tantek>
the second problem is the value in a nested property problem
- [17:23:07] * drewinthehead was unaware of mfo ... sounds useful
- [17:23:16] <drewinthehead>
would be better if it was mofo
- [17:23:50] <tantek>
mfo only made so much progress because the need was mostly theoretical
- [17:24:23] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
- [17:24:25] <mkaply>
But in practice, most microformats should be opaque
- [17:24:32] <tantek>
and also, it makes microformats a bit more complex for authors, that is, for them to have to use say class="hunknown mfo"
- [17:24:35] <mkaply>
I like mfo simply as a way to identify ANY microformat object
- [17:24:38] <tantek>
mkaply true
- [17:24:42] <tantek>
that's the point of mfo
- [17:25:01] <tantek>
so that parsers can be written to handle encapsulation in a forward-compatible manner
- [17:25:19] <mkaply>
I'm definitely planning on putting opaqueness in for FF 3
- [17:25:22] <drewinthehead>
and in a modular manner
- [17:25:33] <mkaply>
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=416134
- [17:25:57] <mkaply>
But if a microformat shouldn't be opaque (like hAtom/hEntry) - you can write custom code in the microformat handler to solve that
- [17:26:01] <mkaply>
So we default to opaqueness
- [17:26:14] <tantek>
yes
- [17:26:23] <tantek>
i don't really like the term opaqueness to refer to this functionality
- [17:26:33] <mkaply>
And while we're on this subject, I have a question about haudio
- [17:26:34] <tantek>
it feels like a slight misuse of opaqueness
- [17:26:49] <tantek>
and i think "encapsulation" is the traditional CS term for this functionality
- [17:26:49] <mkaply>
Is it true that at some point folks said that the <item> in haudio should not have haudio on it?
- [17:27:17] <mkaply>
It seems to me that there is an outer haudio for the album, and if the items represent tracks (which are haudio as well) - they should be "item haudio"
- [17:27:18] <tantek>
mkaply, not sure. regardless, any properties must be on children of a root element for a microformat
- [17:27:46] <tantek>
oh a nested example
- [17:27:46] <tantek>
yeah that could make sense
- [17:27:48] <mkaply>
for an hreview, the vcard is on the item, though right? (if it is a location)
- [17:28:12] <mkaply>
It certainly makes them easier to parse. So the fn for the track doesn't get munged into the fn for the album
- [17:28:22] <drewinthehead>
or class="location vcard" in hcalendar
- [17:28:29] <tantek>
correct
- [17:28:44] <tantek>
for hReview, item hCards for businesses and people
- [17:28:55] <tantek>
for hReview, item hCalendar events for events
- [17:29:49] <mkaply>
so it would be logical if the item in an haudio were an haudio track to be "item haudio"
- [17:30:02] <tantek>
mkaply, such "fn" disambiguation between levels in the hierarchy is similar to <li> disambiguation between different levels in a nested list e.g. <ul><li><ul><li></li><ul></li><li></li></ul>
- [17:31:26] <mkaply>
The main thing I'm concerned about is my making decisions about microformats parsing in FF3 that are wrong. I'm coming down to the wire.
- [17:32:52] <tantek>
mkaply, I cannot find documentation of generic value excerpting on all properties either
- [17:33:41] <drewinthehead>
at the moment hkit only deals with value as a defined sub-prop. no magic excerpting at all
- [17:34:45] <tantek>
so far it is defined only for hCard properties that have a "type" subproperty, for adr and geo properties: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr#Value_excerpting http://microformats.org/wiki/geo#Value_excerpting
- [17:35:48] <mkaply>
interestiong. So where did ryan and roger come up with their examples?
- [17:36:08] <mkaply>
tantek: It can be used for fun things
- [17:36:21] <mkaply>
http://www.kaply.com/weblog/about
- [17:37:32] <tantek>
ok, I think if none of us can find documentation on generic value excerpting, it would not be unreasonable to declare it not mature enough to be implemented.
- [17:37:46] * trovster (n=trovster@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [17:37:46] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [17:38:34] <mkaply>
tantek: but in the phone number example, is this valid?
- [17:39:44] <mkaply>
<span class="tel"><span class="value">512</span><span class="value">555-1212</span>
- [17:39:50] <mkaply>
That's really what value excepriting was about, right?
- [17:40:04] <mkaply>
(at least as explained to me)
- [17:40:10] * mkaply goes to look in the microformats book
- [17:40:50] <tantek>
mkaply that's right
- [17:41:24] <mkaply>
tantek: But why would you really do that? with a phone number?
- [17:41:31] <mkaply>
And again, none of the tel examples show that case
- [17:41:54] <tantek>
oh sorry, i misread your example
- [17:42:21] <tantek>
yes it is valid, the separate "value" children are appended
- [17:42:41] <mkaply>
fyi current bugs
- [17:42:41] <mkaply>
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?chfieldto=Now&component=Microformats&emailassigned_to1=1&emailassigned_to2=1&emailqa_contact2=1&emailreporter2=1&field-1-0-0=component&field-1-1-0=product&field-1-2-0=resolution&product=Toolkit&query_format=advanced&resolution=DUPLICATE&resolution=---&type-1-0-0=anyexact&type-1-1-0=anyexact&type-1-2-0=anyexact&value-1-0-0=Microformats&value-1-1-0=Toolkit&value-1-2-0=DUPLICATE%2C---&known_name=Micr
- [17:42:42] <mkaply>
oformats
- [17:42:50] <tantek>
value excerpting is currently only documented (AFAIK) for hCard properties which have a subproperty of "type", and for "adr" and "geo" properties.
- [17:43:00] <mkaply>
tantek: where id the documentation that the seprate values are appended? I didn't see that in any of the examples
- [17:43:16] <tantek>
and for those latter two, I can't find examples or use cases and thus am tempted to move them from the spec to brainstorming.
- [17:43:20] <BenWard>
I use the following in my CV: <span class="tel"><span class="value">+44</span> (0) <span class="value">712 3123456</span></span> — so value concat is useful to me ;)
- [17:44:10] <mkaply>
I don't disagree it's useful. Just undocumented :)
- [17:44:34] <mkaply>
The weirdness I ran into was knowing whether or not a value was being used for the tel value or for the value of the tel number
- [17:44:39] <mkaply>
That required a strange special case
- [17:45:03] <mkaply>
/* Special case - if this node is a value, use the parent node to get all the values */
- [17:45:03] <mkaply>
/* If this case gets executed, per the value design pattern, the result */
- [17:45:03] <mkaply>
/* will be the EXACT email address with no extra parsing required */
- [17:45:33] <mkaply>
So the problem is that value is a subproperty, but if you find it, you need to go to the parent to make sure you get all the values if there are more than one
- [17:45:44] <mkaply>
So sometimes value means value, and sometimes value means "get all the values and concatenate"
- [17:46:08] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
- [17:46:10] <tantek>
doesn't the latter always include the meaning of the former?
- [17:46:27] <drewinthehead>
I'm sure the concatenation rule is documented
- [17:46:34] <tantek>
or rather, given the latter interpretation, when there is only one class="value", it has the same result as the former
- [17:47:29] <tantek>
drat, I can't even find where I specified that the hCard "note" property is concatenated
- [17:47:43] * tantek starts to check page histories
- [17:48:58] <mkaply>
actually the later doesn't mean the former. Because in the concatenate case, you use the EXACT values of the "value" where as in the othercase, you don't. A good example would be this
- [17:49:09] <mkaply>
(spans removed for clariety)
- [17:49:38] <mkaply>
<tel><value> 512-555-1212</value>
- [17:49:54] <mkaply>
value is 512-555-1212 with spaces removed
- [17:50:04] <mkaply>
<tel><value> 512-</value><value>555-1212</value>
- [17:50:17] <mkaply>
I woudl keep the spaces because the value excerpt pattern says to use the EXACT values
- [17:50:52] <mkaply>
I know I'm splitting hairs here, but I couldn't come up with a better example
- [17:51:22] <tantek>
i think in either case you drop the spaces
- [17:51:55] <mkaply>
No, you don't
- [17:52:08] <mkaply>
you can't
- [17:52:22] <mkaply>
<value>Mike </value><value>Kaply</value>
- [17:52:43] <mkaply>
I assume with value excerpting that you knew exactly what you wanted in the value tags.
- [17:52:51] <tantek>
side note: I did find some problems in recent /wiki/hcard edits, but nothing to do with value excerpting.
- [17:52:55] <mkaply>
So I don't do any whitespace correction or removals
- [17:53:11] <tantek>
mkaply, I think that level of detail for value excerpting will be lost on authors
- [17:53:15] <tantek>
or rather, that distinction
- [17:53:16] <mkaply>
My understanding was that was the point of value excerpting
- [17:53:27] <tantek>
better to keep the whitespace handling consistent and simple
- [17:53:35] <tantek>
no the point of value excerpting is not whitespace
- [17:53:39] <mkaply>
Then the example above would be
- [17:53:42] <tantek>
it is often for removing punctuation
- [17:53:49] <mkaply>
<value>Mike</value><value> </value><value>Kaply</value>
- [17:53:50] <tantek>
or excess (0) like in Ben Ward's example
- [17:54:07] <mkaply>
you actually couldn't use value excerpting for names anymore if that was the case
- [17:55:11] <mkaply>
See
- [17:55:12] <mkaply>
http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCard.html
- [17:55:15] <mkaply>
page 13
- [17:55:27] <mkaply>
page 14 especiialy
- [17:55:36] <mkaply>
and page 15
- [17:56:43] <tantek>
note mkaply, for S5 presos, you can link to specific slides thusly: http://www.xfront.com/microformats/hCard.html#slide13
- [17:56:52] <mkaply>
tx
- [17:57:15] <tantek>
mkaply, that slides is merely repeating of a single email thread which never got documented on the wiki
- [17:58:09] <mkaply>
tantek: I was more pointing out the space issue that we just talked about. Removing the space from the value would make the example not valid. It would seem that the inclusion of the exact contents of the <value> was the intention
- [17:58:29] <tantek>
no it was not, certainly not as documented
- [17:58:45] <tantek>
that use to extract an fn out of a split mention of given and family name is only a brainstorm example
- [17:59:03] <tantek>
AFAIK, there no one ever found/documented a real world example that would require that behavior
- [17:59:06] <mkaply>
Then I would argue the value exceprting is useless except where numbers are involved.
- [17:59:25] <mkaply>
or email addresses
- [17:59:35] <tantek>
mkaply, or rather, as specified, they have limited utility
- [17:59:38] <tantek>
which is *ok* to start with
- [17:59:47] <mkaply>
Things without spaces. Otherwise you'd have to figure out a way to add spaces into the thing you specified
- [17:59:55] <tantek>
that's part of as simple as possible -- as minimal as possible
- [18:01:31] * trovster (n=trovster@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
- [18:01:45] <mkaply>
So tell me what to do and I'll do it. Should I remove value excerpting from Operator except for email and telephone? (things that already use value)
- [18:02:00] <tantek>
I think that's the safest path.
- [18:02:02] <mkaply>
s/Operator/FF3
- [18:02:23] <tantek>
because the other behaviors aren't even documented on the wiki!
- [18:02:58] <mkaply>
Incidentally, the multiple values for a phone number are in the hcard tests - but not documented on the wiki
- [18:03:05] <tantek>
the email lists should be considered "less than brainstorming" with respect to documentation
- [18:03:26] <tantek>
mkaply - URLs?
- [18:03:59] * finke (n=Finke@67.159.166.98) has joined #microformats
- [18:03:59] <jibot>
finke is Chris Finke from Mahalo (http://chrisfinke.com/)
- [18:04:05] <mkaply>
http://microformats.org/tests/hcard/21-tel.html
- [18:04:42] <tantek>
indeed, the concatenation of both value and note need to be documented
- [18:05:40] <drewinthehead>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#class_value_handling
- [18:05:53] <mkaply>
there it is
- [18:06:08] <drewinthehead>
I knew I'd read it somewhere
- [18:06:23] <tantek>
thanks drew - at least I remembered to put it there
- [18:06:32] <mkaply>
And there's no way I would implement that just for hcard, so I implemented it for all mfs
- [18:06:45] <tantek>
now there's just the pre-microformats.org designed behavior of "note" concatenation that I need to document
- [18:07:04] <mkaply>
And it does say "concatenate"
- [18:07:20] <tantek>
mkaply, of course, because other microformats (like hCalendar) currently reference hcard-parsing for parsing details
- [18:07:27] <mkaply>
IT doesn't say "remove whitespace first"
- [18:07:37] <mkaply>
more docs
- [18:07:41] <tantek>
mkaply it doesn't say to do anything different with whitespace
- [18:07:59] <tantek>
as compared to other properties
- [18:08:01] <tantek>
that's the key
- [18:08:06] <tantek>
so don't do anything different
- [18:08:09] <mkaply>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#References
- [18:08:11] <mkaply>
Look above references
- [18:08:45] <mkaply>
drewinthehead: it uses the word child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- [18:08:56] <mkaply>
twice
- [18:09:15] <drewinthehead>
ah ha!
- [18:09:24] <drewinthehead>
not descendant then
- [18:09:45] <mkaply>
that solves BenWard's problem
- [18:09:54] <tantek>
boy am I glad I wrote that resolution to that issue as precisely as I did
- [18:09:56] <mkaply>
tantek: would you agree that what was meant here was "child"
- [18:10:12] <mkaply>
let's add value excerpting to that comment so if we search again we find it
- [18:10:14] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [18:10:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [18:10:14] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [18:10:18] <tantek>
yes, that's the conservative meaning
- [18:10:24] <tantek>
speaking of whom
- [18:10:52] * iand (n=iand@89.192.100.183) has joined #microformats
- [18:10:52] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
- [18:10:58] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=25580 * MikeKaply * (+31) parsing hCard properties and values -
- [18:11:17] <mkaply>
ok, so I'm going to try to change my code to do only "value" children. That might be tricky
- [18:11:22] <tantek>
thanks mkaply
- [18:11:33] <mkaply>
which will then mean we need a testcase. for the good and the bad
- [18:11:54] <tantek>
well the hCard test case you linked to above covers the good
- [18:12:07] <tantek>
let's leave the descendants possibility open
- [18:12:12] <drewinthehead>
I've got to head offline for a while, but I'll pop back in later
- [18:12:22] <tantek>
so that we have the chance to better specify it in the future
- [18:12:24] <mkaply>
tantek: the descendants thing throws a big wrench in this.
- [18:12:25] <drewinthehead>
handling children in hkit shouldn't be a problem.
- [18:12:28] <mkaply>
I really like the idea of only children
- [18:12:39] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has left #microformats
- [18:12:43] <tantek>
mkaply - that will be good for the discussion of descendant values
- [18:12:58] <mkaply>
I'm going to change to child now to match the "spec" - we'll go from there
- [18:13:12] <tantek>
mkaply sounds good
- [18:13:46] <tantek>
note that kingryan is now in the channel, perhaps we should ask him about http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2006-October/006896.html
- [18:14:35] <tantek>
kingryan, where is generic value excerpting (applying class="value" to any property) defined on the wiki?
- [18:15:28] <kingryan>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Value_excerpting ?
- [18:16:32] <tantek>
looking at that it seems to imply that it's only for properties that have a "type" subproperty
- [18:16:59] <tantek>
as well as in the example preceding that section
- [18:17:55] <tantek>
all other discussion about it seems like it has been purely theoretical, e.g. one mention in email, which was then copy/pasted to an S5 preso.
- [18:18:10] <tantek>
so not much theoretical discussion even
- [18:18:25] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@195.70.5.235) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [18:20:22] <csarven>
http://www.csarven.ca/microformats-introduction -- any comments? would appreciate it if anyone can identify any misconceptions that i might have mentioned and so i can correct them. the article is loosely based on the presentation i gave: http://www.csarven.ca/presentations/microformats-01 (tantek i reused some of your slides) :)
- [18:22:49] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25581 * Tantek * (+65) reverted edits which broke the foot-note like references for property notes, re-added note about alphabetic phone numbers, replace alc ref
- [18:26:26] <InsomniaCity>
So, how are the nested components such as VALARM supported in hCalendar?
- [18:26:36] * gl (n=glebleu@63.82.3.130) has joined #microformats
- [18:26:57] <tantek>
InsomniaCity, so far, hCalendar only defines use of the VEVENT component, and the rest are out of scope currently
- [18:27:09] <InsomniaCity>
brilliant, thanks.
- [18:27:22] <tantek>
there is some effort to work on a to-do microformat using VTODO as a basis
- [18:27:27] <tantek>
but it is just brainstorming at this point
- [18:27:52] * gl is now known as glebleu
- [18:29:18] <mkaply>
This change will make BenWard much happier
- [18:29:50] <BenWard>
:P Cheers Mike
- [18:30:09] <mkaply>
BenWard: so both your evil examples are OK now
- [18:30:32] <mkaply>
Amazing that one tiny word (child) can make such a difference
- [18:30:50] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25582 * Guillaume Lebleu * (+46) Added glebleu to IRC list
- [18:31:22] <BenWard>
It all came up having the entirity of Yahoo Hack Day so far writing profiles for hKit (hListing, in this case). A good case to have cleared up :)
- [18:33:25] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@217-98.127-70.tampabay.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:34:47] <mkaply>
do you have good hListing profile? I haven't done an Operator version yet
- [18:34:50] <tantek>
not related at all:
- [18:34:53] * tantek just registered iblameryan.com and iblameryanking.com
- [18:35:40] <mkaply>
tantek: could probably sell those to wife/spouse/significant other as well
- [18:36:34] <tantek>
call it blame-parity. (ryan owns iblametantek.com, and i'm shocked he didn't reg his own ;) )
- [18:37:21] <kingryan>
mkaply: only if I had a "wife/spouse/significant other" :)
- [18:37:38] * kingryan notes that he also owns iblamekevin.com
- [18:37:52] <mkaply>
kingryan: figure out a way to blame tantek for that
- [18:38:08] <mkaply>
(the so part)
- [18:38:34] <tantek>
kingryan, be careful what you ask for
- [18:40:24] * BobJonkman (n=bjonkman@206.208.226.139) Quit ("Leaving.")
- [18:40:53] <csarven>
going to register to futureofwebapps tonight =)
- [18:42:16] <kingryan>
anwyay, tantek, back to your Q about value-excerpting: you're probably right that its not documented
- [18:42:27] * kingryan has to go commute now, bbiab
- [18:42:28] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-002-056.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [18:42:58] <tantek>
hence i'm labeling it as "less than brainstorming" and thus not suitable for production implementation.
- [18:43:30] * tantek is reading csarven's intro
- [18:43:40] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-151-228-75.range86-151.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [18:46:12] <tantek>
csarven, nice intro
- [18:46:37] <tantek>
would suggest putting the email list(s) last in the "get involved" section
- [18:47:10] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) has joined #microformats
- [18:47:11] <tantek>
it seems to be the most noisy historically and has tended to put off a lot of new folks, especially new folks that are busy with many other things and can't afford the time to read 3 emails in a row from the same person (which seems to happen far too often)
- [18:49:10] <csarven>
interesting. will do
- [18:49:43] <csarven>
did you think it covered it well enough? im mostly concerned about any misconceptions or what it can or cannot (or meant to) do
- [18:53:26] * iand (n=iand@89.192.100.183) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [18:54:20] * Zarabadoo (n=Al_Steff@74.93.227.249) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [18:54:30] <tantek>
csarven i think overall it is very good
- [18:54:44] <tantek>
one misconception might be the whole web 2.0, 2.5, 3.0 thing
- [18:54:51] <csarven>
:)
- [18:54:53] <tantek>
microformats aren't really tied to any of those
- [18:55:02] <tantek>
i mean, POSH practices predate Web 2.0
- [18:56:01] <tantek>
and frankly, until the uppercase Semantic Web is defined otherwise, I don't expect that having a slew of invisible metadata on the web based on a numerous random schemas from many sources is ever going to work out.
- [18:56:16] <tantek>
invisible = bad - we've already demonstrated that.
- [18:56:23] <tantek>
and random schemas = zero interop
- [18:56:27] <csarven>
true that. i think i wanted to show a way to connect what we have now with where it will eventually move to
- [18:56:54] <tantek>
random schemas = babble. everybody speaking their own language and no one communicating.
- [18:57:04] <tantek>
the whole point of semantics/meaning is communicating between people.
- [18:57:22] <glebleu>
hello. I thought irc might be better than uf-discuss for a question I have (avoiding noise!): I've been researching the semantics of fn and I am looking for pointers that would explain/support the use of fn outside of a person's name.
- [18:58:04] <tantek>
glebleu - i am behind on reading the lists because, as you say, there is too much noise there (i expect some admin actions may be taken soon).
- [18:58:17] <tantek>
the point is that fn simply means "formatted name"
- [18:58:55] <tantek>
it is vCard which uses "fn" to apply to the name of a person (or organization as it turns out)
- [18:59:12] <tantek>
hCard is extending that to also apply "fn" to the name of a place (see hCard brainstorming for more on that discussion)
- [19:00:12] <tantek>
microformats reuse vocabulary from existing standards, and that means doing so quite abstractly often, extracting that vocabulary from the weight of all the context/details/requirements of the existing standard
- [19:00:46] <tantek>
as such, even if vCard used "fn" to refer to the formatted name of a person or organization, microformats extracted "fn" as just "formatted name"
- [19:01:13] <tantek>
as the more general concept of a name which is displayed
- [19:01:39] <tantek>
and for that, there is no need for a separate word to indicate the name of an item or movie etc.
- [19:02:56] * csarven- (n=nevrasc@on-irc.csarven.ca) has joined #microformats
- [19:03:09] <glebleu>
from my reading of vcard/rfc2426 ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2426.txt, it seems that vcard is for people objects. is hCard fn meaning based on a more recent vcard specification?
- [19:03:29] <tantek>
glebleu - see above about how microformats extract vocabulary
- [19:04:20] <tantek>
there is no more recent vCard specification
- [19:04:22] <tantek>
RFC2426 is it
- [19:04:49] <tantek>
the misconception that I think people have had is the assumption that reusing vocabulary implies that everything else comes with it - which it doesn't.
- [19:06:03] <tantek>
which is perhaps a specific example of the incorrect assumption that one can simply take an existing format and make it into a microformat just by turning it into class names.
- [19:06:12] <tantek>
there's more to it than that
- [19:06:18] <tantek>
hence http://microformats.org/wiki/process
- [19:07:30] <csarven->
it appears to be that the logs at http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC are truncated at some places
- [19:08:23] <glebleu>
but doesn't formatted name implies that there is an unformatted name? this makes sense for a person's name, for which a structured name is desired, but not for a place name, company name: in the latter case, the formatted name = the name?
- [19:15:27] <tantek>
precisely, in the latter cases, formatted name = the name, thus we can simply reuse the term, rather than inventing a new term.
- [19:15:47] <tantek>
and no, formatted name doesn't imply that there is an unformatted name
- [19:16:32] <tantek>
other things may have structured names as well, but until research determines a need for structured names for other types of objects, we don't have to worry about them.
- [19:21:18] * kingryan (n=ryan@dsl092-219-050.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [19:21:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [19:21:18] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:25:00] <csarven->
is there a wiki page that is best to capture objections (or concerns) of microformats? http://microformats.org/wiki/criticism or http://microformats.org/wiki/faq is close enough but im not sure if its better mentioned elsewhere.
- [19:25:49] <tantek>
csarven, for documenting issues raised towards improving microformats, one of the *-issues pages is best
- [19:26:22] <tantek>
for documenting external criticisms which are often ill-informed, make poor assumptions, or are politically motivated, use the /criticism page
- [19:27:39] <tantek>
the criticism page is essentially a to-do page for processing external critiques and debunking them
- [19:29:03] <csarven->
probably better fit under /criticism then.. i wanted to write a few points in response to something like ""My data can be mined by 'bad' people easier"
- [19:29:23] <csarven->
(which actually came up at the presentation i gave at work)
- [19:29:48] <tantek>
if it is honest questions due to just not knowing, then discussing it here in IRC is usually a good start
- [19:29:52] <tantek>
and then capturing in an FAQ
- [19:30:20] <csarven->
then:
- [19:30:37] <csarven->
* boosts semantics using standardised information
- [19:30:37] <csarven->
* information is already on the page
- [19:30:37] <csarven->
* technology is independent from how it may be used (good or bad)
- [19:30:44] <tantek>
the /wiki/criticism page is only really for capturing links to *external* sites/pages with poor criticism that needs to be debunked / fisked.
- [19:31:08] <csarven->
* data shouldn't be public if you don't want it retrievable
- [19:31:08] <csarven->
* if worried then using images or flash would be better then using html for the content
- [19:31:18] <tantek>
rather, microformats emphasize only marking up visible information
- [19:31:19] <csarven->
* creative commons license could help the readers better understand their rights with the information and what they are allowed to do with it
- [19:31:28] <csarven->
# Textual markup is what the Web is built from.
- [19:31:28] <csarven->
# FOAF and XFN take some of the guesswork out of interpreting markup.
- [19:31:28] <csarven->
* Microformats provide a mechanism for marking up visible content.
- [19:31:44] <tantek>
csarven, it's actually better to raise the issue more generically
- [19:32:08] <tantek>
like: what if I don't want people to know or get more information about me?
- [19:32:13] <csarven->
FOAF/XFN was meant to be an example (taking the guesswork out)
- [19:32:40] <csarven->
what do you mean by generically?
- [19:32:42] <tantek>
conflating the two can be confusing since they only really overlap on "me" relations
- [19:32:55] <tantek>
generically = "what if I don't want people to know or get more information about me?"
- [19:33:13] <tantek>
and then point out that that starts with, don't publish such information about you on the Web
- [19:33:21] <tantek>
nor about other people
- [19:33:33] <tantek>
and this is where the visible aspect becomes very important
- [19:33:52] <tantek>
publishing information visibly makes it verifiable, checkable, and easier to object to when inappropriate information is published.
- [19:34:00] <csarven->
the thing is the information can still be retrieved. scripts can be written (and is even used) to actually mine data.. the only difference is making it more obvious and pick up the information more efficently
- [19:34:08] <tantek>
OTOH publishing information invisibly causes lots of problems
- [19:34:28] <tantek>
csarven, the point is larger than that
- [19:34:34] <tantek>
that's also a defensive response
- [19:34:38] <tantek>
no need to be defensive
- [19:34:52] <tantek>
because microformats actually emphasize more awareness and a better policy about this
- [19:35:00] <tantek>
that's the point of following the generic line of reasoning
- [19:35:06] <tantek>
into discussing visible vs. invisible
- [19:35:11] <csarven->
i see
- [19:35:23] <tantek>
so, continuing from above
- [19:35:31] <tantek>
OTOH publishing information invisibly causes lots of problems
- [19:35:51] <tantek>
it's not verifiable and thus not reliable, often out of date, or spammed
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- [19:36:19] <tantek>
and because it's invisible, those that it affects and may want to object can't do so because they don't know to do so, they don't see it.
- [19:36:54] <tantek>
for these reasons, microformats actively discourage publishing of invisible information period, and therefore have no interest in modeling or pushing the publishing of any more invisible information
- [19:37:15] <tantek>
other approaches have unfortunately (whether intentionally or not) pushed for publishing lots of invisible metadata
- [19:37:28] <tantek>
this has resulted in really bad surprises, when someone does index that data and expose
- [19:37:30] <tantek>
expose it
- [19:38:24] <tantek>
this is one of the reasons why microformats have the principle of "humans first, machines second"
- [19:38:48] <tantek>
it's more important that the information be conveyed visibly to humans, than it be published in some random machine readable format
- [19:39:01] <tantek>
turns out that information conveyed visibly to humans is also more trustworthy
- [19:39:23] <csarven->
for sure, but they are more concerned with the visible information. for instance, freelancer grab content from sites and republish parts of them elsewhere (it is a rights/licensing issue). what they are thinking is that /with/ microformats (and the tools which allow them to be picked up from the pages) it would be much easier/accurately to get a hold of this data
- [19:39:36] <tantek>
thus microformats chooses to only markup/represent that visible information
- [19:39:43] <tantek>
view source / copy-paste already makes it easy
- [19:39:59] <tantek>
for that kind of scenario
- [19:40:50] <tantek>
if anything, with microformats, and explicit representation of licenses (e.g. with rel-license), tools supporting microformats can make it much easier to point out when such data shouldn't be republished
- [19:41:26] <csarven->
right. i mean, using images or flash for instance would make it even more difficult to get a hold of this data but that doesn't mean one should move away from html. technology is somewhat independant from its use, however technology is designed to aid some human need
- [19:41:37] <tantek>
right
- [19:43:51] <MrTopf>
but I mean for "normal" humans it's still invisible, at least that it's marked up as such
- [19:44:23] <MrTopf>
I was just thinking about this regarding the Social Graph API discussion as people might not be aware that their data is retrievable like that.
- [19:45:01] <MrTopf>
which might not be a big deal for now but some policies might still needed to be discussed
- [19:46:11] <MrTopf>
but I think I get the point of microformats now more after your explanation of the problems of invisible data :)
- [19:47:53] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25583 * AndyMabbett * (+0) Property Notes - replace potentially-real number with "555" equivalent (like example.com, for phone numbers)
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- [19:55:25] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
- [20:02:26] <InsomniaCity>
umm, vCard question, since I can't think of anywhere else to ask it... were there any major changes between 2.1 and 3.0?
- [20:02:41] <InsomniaCity>
as I've just noticed that X2V produces vCard 3.0
- [20:03:00] * drewinthehead is back and has caught up
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- [20:03:49] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=25584 * Tantek * (+9) Reverted edit of Aless, changed back to last version by ChristopheDucamp
- [20:04:12] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Aless" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [20:04:38] <tantek>
MrTopf indeed. And it's a reason why I've discouraged people from publishing (or indexing) invisible (meta)data.
- [20:04:55] <drewinthehead>
InsomniaCity: I don't have an answer, but I see that Address Book on the mac offers a choice of both formats to the end user - that suggests there are non-insignificant differences.
- [20:06:03] <MrTopf>
but isn't it still somewhat of a hack, repurposing CSS classes? I mean not that I know a better method then and it seems to get some more widespread use now which is good
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- [20:06:42] <tantek>
MrTopf, they aren't CSS classes, they are HTML classes.
- [20:06:57] <tantek>
would be good to add this hCard example to the hCard examples page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/khimscho/1328581455/
- [20:07:40] <MrTopf>
but they are still usually used for CSS styles ;-)
- [20:07:56] <MrTopf>
like in Plone I wanted to add some markup but noticed that we actually have a vcard class already
- [20:07:59] <tantek>
and unobtrusive scripting
- [20:08:13] <tantek>
CSS and scripting are just two of many possible uses for semantic class names
- [20:08:33] <MrTopf>
which results in the interesting fact that events in Plone are now inside a vcard class
- [20:08:36] <tantek>
the practice of using class names to represent semantics predates microformats, and thus microformats built upon this established practice
- [20:08:39] <MrTopf>
so not sure how to change this
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- [20:23:19] <mkaply>
anyone know of examples of vcards in asian languages?
- [20:23:47] <tantek>
mkaply, I think there were some Japanese examples on the hcard-examples page, but I haven't been able to find them since all the splitting going on
- [20:25:03] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25585 * AndyMabbett * (+501) 2008 - is "n" optional or mandatory?
- [20:28:24] <csarven->
Is it the OS settings that intervenes with encoding on .vcf files? When I export an hCard that contains characters like é é or �, Operator retains those values in .vcf. When you open up the .vcf file however, encoding is lost and it pukes out something
- [20:29:38] <tantek>
csarven when you say "when you open the .vcf" document which application you are opening it with on the http://microformats.org/wiki/vcard-implementations page
- [20:32:22] <csarven->
Thunderbird 1.5, Windows Contacts on Windows Vista, and Outlook (although I can't remember which version it was)
- [20:33:10] <csarven->
err Thunderbird 2
- [20:35:47] <tantek>
definitely add that to the wiki page
- [20:36:00] <tantek>
and document any issues you found with that implementation
- [20:37:23] <csarven->
appears to be okay in Mac Leapord 4.1's Address Book
- [20:38:12] <csarven->
re: http://lebelage.ca/
- [20:40:08] <csarven->
i think documentation on different vCard versions and the applications supporting them would be handy
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- [20:40:41] <csarven->
i.e. desktop, handheld..
- [20:44:14] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25586 * AndyMabbett * (+849) 2008 - optimisation does not work for some or all Asian names
- [20:49:57] <tantek>
csarven - document the applications, then only if the applications treat different vCard versions differently, document those differences for that application only. vCard apps today should only really be bothering with RFC2426 which defines vCard 3.0.
- [20:50:50] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=25587 * AndyMabbett * (+69) 2008 - Cpmment from people fluent in such languages would be welcome
- [20:51:48] <mkaply>
Another reason that nickname is bad - asian names
- [20:52:17] <csarven->
heh
- [20:53:59] <mkaply>
We should really totally give up on the nickname optimization. It's just bad
- [20:54:31] <tantek>
mkaply - why? it's often the only way to constructing an hCard to references to people on the web
- [20:55:22] <mkaply>
because In other languages, names are one word. So you can't assume they are nicknames. If someone is going to bother putting hcard around a handle anyway, why wouldn't they just add nickname?
- [20:56:00] <mkaply>
OK, so we've already hit a snag with not allowing nested microformat stuff to bubble up.
- [20:56:08] <mkaply>
I guess I have to exclude rel microformats
- [20:56:18] <mkaply>
Since people have an fn specificed as a rel tag
- [20:56:22] <mkaply>
(tantek's homepage)
- [20:56:37] <tantek>
mkaply, the nesting rules apply to compound microformats
- [20:56:53] <mkaply>
tantek: OK. I'll fix that
- [20:56:56] <tantek>
not elemental
- [20:57:07] <tantek>
elemental microformats themselves state their scope
- [20:57:16] <tantek>
e.g. look at what rel-tag says vs. rel-license etc.
- [20:57:32] <mkaply>
Basically what the nickname optimisation says is that anyone with a single name, that's their nickname. What about people in india with one name? Or asian names where there are no spaces?
- [20:57:34] <tantek>
(mkaply, hence why I listed them in hcard-parsing)
- [20:57:50] <tantek>
mkaply, then those should be marked up with given-name and family-name
- [20:58:05] <mkaply>
then nicknames should be marked up with nickname
- [20:58:06] <tantek>
optimizations aren't meant to help everyone, just common cases we've seen on theweb
- [20:58:34] <mkaply>
common cases because you are in america with english speakers
- [20:58:47] <mkaply>
India and China have way more people with way more names.
- [21:00:01] <tantek>
so in those cases, we should just make sure that the optimizations don't do any damage
- [21:00:22] <tantek>
if you can provide an example (link) to where nickname optimization is causing a problem, then we can better take a look at it\
- [21:01:39] <mkaply>
Every Asian Wikipedia entry
- [21:01:46] <mkaply>
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B9%AF%E5%A7%86%C2%B7%E5%85%8B%E9%AD%AF%E6%96%AF
- [21:01:54] <mkaply>
Mabbett just posted it to hcard-issues
- [21:02:47] <tantek>
what is that "·" character in 湯姆·克魯斯
- [21:02:58] <tantek>
is that a name separator?
- [21:03:07] <tantek>
perhaps we just need to add support for that
- [21:03:38] <mkaply>
Wouldn't handle indian names. I have a friend who's name is Ravisankar
- [21:03:44] <mkaply>
That's his whole name
- [21:03:50] <tantek>
(from that wiki page)
- [21:04:11] <Jedi_>
tantek: yes, it's name separator
- [21:05:03] <tantek>
mkaply, having your nickname be the same as your name isn't a problem is it?
- [21:05:50] <mkaply>
We're inferring incorrect information from the fn. That's all.
- [21:14:35] <mkaply>
ARGH.
- [21:14:40] <mkaply>
What if fn is contained in an adr.
- [21:14:47] <mkaply>
This is going to be harder than I thought
- [21:15:05] <mkaply>
because adr is technically a microformat
- [21:15:19] <mkaply>
so the fn wouldn't go up from the adr to the parent vcard
- [21:15:55] <mkaply>
tantek: that's for you. These are from your page
- [21:17:12] <tantek>
I kind of thought this was obvious, but perhaps we need to explain that adr and geo, when contained inside an hCard are not their own microformat.
- [21:17:17] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25588 * AndyMabbett * (+62) better method of marking up notes
- [21:17:54] <mkaply>
That's easy to say
- [21:18:02] <tantek>
since they are obviously derived from hCard
- [21:18:08] <mkaply>
Coding it is another thing entirely
- [21:18:12] <tantek>
and are properties listed in hCard
- [21:18:32] <tantek>
treat them as properties of hCard first, and their own microformats second
- [21:18:40] <mkaply>
So why was adr even separated into a microformat?
- [21:20:26] <tantek>
because there were examples of unnamed addresses in the wild that made sense to represent as adr
- [21:20:28] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25589 * AndyMabbett * (+60) Property List - IDs
- [21:20:29] <tantek>
similar with geo
- [21:20:31] <tantek>
often in a list
- [21:21:19] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25590 * AndyMabbett * (+36) Property Notes - links
- [21:21:40] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25591 * AndyMabbett * (+2) Property Notes - #
- [21:23:36] <mkaply>
OK, worked around.
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- [21:25:57] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25592 * Tantek * (+68) removed sibling parenthetical expressions which look awkward, used more of a traditional footnote style, use more semantic ids
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- [21:43:57] <e_s_p>
Hi, everybody!
- [21:44:40] <e_s_p>
I have a Web request
- [21:44:49] <e_s_p>
If someone has write access to http://gmpg.org/xfn/more ...
- [21:44:58] <e_s_p>
It would be nice to add a link to the Google Social Graph API
- [21:45:26] <e_s_p>
http://code.google.com/apis/socialgraph/
- [21:45:42] <tantek>
e_s_p could you add that to http://microformats.org/wiki/xfn-implementations for now?
- [21:46:03] <tantek>
it is likely that gmpg.org/xfn/more will in the future simply link to microformats wiki pages
- [21:48:26] * tantek (n=tantek@12.145.154.227) Quit ()
- [21:49:59] <e_s_p>
good point
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- [21:52:15] <mfbot>
[[xfn-implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfn-implementations&diff=0&oldid=25593 * Evan * (+130) new implementations - Google Social Graph API
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- [21:52:21] <e_s_p>
done!
- [21:52:44] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) Quit ()
- [21:52:56] <tantek>
thanks e_s_p!
- [21:54:07] <mfbot>
[[irc-people]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=25594 * Evan * (+32) evanpro == e_s_p
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- [22:05:45] <mfbot>
[[advocacy]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=advocacy&diff=0&oldid=25595 * Tantek * (+529) Dopplr should support hCalendar subscribe, as in subscribing data *into* Dopplr, resorted section a bit for relevance, actionability
- [22:08:58] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25596 * AndyMabbett * (-52) Property List - rm microfonts to improve accessibility
- [22:09:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25597 * Tantek * (+52) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [22:10:16] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25598 * Tantek * (-1) prev revert was because using font-size:smaller is not an accessibility problem. See Joe Clark's writings on the matter.
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- [22:44:03] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25599 * AndyMabbett * (-52) revert: Clarke offers no justification for using f-s:smaller on already-smaller superscrtipt; thereby creating minuscuse links which are hard for some people to see and for other people to click
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- [22:48:34] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25600 * Tantek * (+52) Reverted edit of AndyMabbett, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [22:49:40] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=25601 * Tantek * (+1) prev revert - Font sizing is just not your problem as an author. See http://joeclark.org/appearances/atmedia2007/#fonts
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- [22:53:36] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [23:10:43] <mfbot>
[[accessibility-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=accessibility-issues&diff=0&oldid=25602 * AndyMabbett * (+864) Accessibility of this wiki - miniscule single-character links
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- [23:39:16] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [23:48:25] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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