IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-03-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:19:25] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [00:36:20] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [00:51:00] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [01:11:19] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [07:38:51] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:39:35] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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- [08:47:19] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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- [09:02:06] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:36:29] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:57:57] <mfbot>
[[User:JojaBa]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:JojaBa&diff=0&oldid=26085 * JojaBa * (+14)
- [10:26:29] <mfbot>
[[User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1&diff=0&oldid=26086 * AndyMabbett * (-4) spelling (NOTE: changes a class name); RFC 2119 templates
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- [10:30:40] <mfbot>
[[User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1&diff=0&oldid=26087 * AndyMabbett * (+249) Discussion appears to have been bypassed (& typo in original comment)
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- [12:26:20] <jibot>
BenWard is Ben Ward of http://ben-ward.co.uk ( 0000/ 0100 GMT)
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- [14:17:06] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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[[irc-people]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-people&diff=0&oldid=26088 * MWTE * (+37) Added myself.
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- [15:55:26] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
- [15:55:31] <emrojo>
validating microformats
- [15:56:05] <emrojo>
i have seen this: http://norman.walsh.name/2006/04/13/validatingMicroformats
- [15:56:52] <emrojo>
although it's seems to be an ad-hoc method, are there another works on this theme?
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- [16:00:15] <jibot>
mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
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- [16:01:54] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [16:52:49] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-london-microformats-vevent]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-london-microformats-vevent&diff=0&oldid=26089 * Tonys * (+27)
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- [16:55:20] <mfbot>
[[User:Tony]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Tony * Tonys * (+35)
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- [17:28:03] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [17:34:06] <mephtu>
hello
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- [17:40:22] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [17:43:38] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:46:06] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
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- [17:46:13] <drewinthehead>
greetings
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- [17:56:35] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=26090 * TobyInk * (+166) X-WR-CALNAME -
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- [18:05:33] <jibot>
pjkix is PJ Khalil a Web Developer in SF and can be found online at http://pjkix.com
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- [18:07:50] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:AndyMabbett" with an expiry time of 18 months: 18 month ban
- [18:09:26] <mfbot>
[[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=26091 * Tantek * (+922) added src:A to guidelines created due to one or more actions by Andy Mabbett
- [18:09:27] <mfbot>
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=26092 * Tantek * (+1436) added src:A to guidelines created due to one or more actions by Andy Mabbett, restored need for list of text-reading software affected.
- [18:11:08] <mfbot>
[[how-to-play]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=how-to-play&diff=0&oldid=26093 * Tantek * (+90) added another src:A for massive cleanup on the wiki
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- [18:20:44] <jibot>
pjkix is PJ Khalil a Web Developer in SF and can be found online at http://pjkix.com
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- [18:27:36] <mkaply>
Are we having a meetup at sxsw?
- [18:30:56] <kingryan>
mkaply: we should
- [18:31:07] <kingryan>
I don't think anyone's planned anything though
- [18:31:39] <tantek>
mkaply are you going to sxsw this year?
- [18:32:06] <mkaply>
If IBM pony's up some funds. But I live here, so I'll be in the neighborhood. And dropping by for the facebook event and the mozilla event
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- [18:40:13] <tantek>
alright here is a modest proposal. SXSW microformats meetup Saturday March 8th, 6-7pm, in a corner of the main hallways where all the 5pm sessions will pour out into. just after sessions finish, but before grabbing dinner / going to parties. thoughts?
- [18:41:21] <mkaply>
I wonder how far I can get in without a badge? Can I just not go to the sessions?
- [18:41:49] <tantek>
it may be possible, certainly after the sessions are over for the day.
- [18:42:06] <tantek>
any one of us with on a panel should also be able to get you a day pass
- [18:42:23] <tantek>
which you may want as well, as there will be a few sessions (e.g. social network portability) that will be touching on microformats
- [18:42:36] <mkaply>
The other thing I thought was meeting at this
- [18:42:36] <mkaply>
The other thing I ghouthg
- [18:42:40] <mkaply>
http://upcoming.yahoo.com/event/418886/
- [18:43:11] <mkaply>
Considering how many time microformats is mentioned :
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- [18:48:41] <tantek>
perhaps we can do the microformats community meetup at the convention center from 6-7pm and then head over to the GeekAustin SXSW happy hour since they are heavy on the microformats mentions
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- [18:49:30] <mkaply>
Sounds good to me. Who all is going to be at SXSW besides you an ryan?
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- [18:55:44] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [18:59:14] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive * RyanKing * (+2451)
- [18:59:24] <kingryan>
^ add yourself to that page if you're going
- [18:59:45] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26094 * RyanKing * (+1) attendees -
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- [19:19:12] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26095 * Tantek * (+734) added myself, listing of subevents
- [19:19:53] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26096 * Tantek * (+1)
- [19:20:30] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-10-sxsw-portability-panel]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-10-sxsw-portability-panel&diff=0&oldid=26097 * Tantek * (+64) link to grouping event.
- [19:21:41] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26098 * Tantek * (+122) tweak intro
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- [19:39:37] <mkaply>
tantek: My information on extended-address says that it is singular, not plural. What's yoru opinon? - from vcard: http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/vcard.xml
- [19:39:42] <mkaply>
http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/vcard.xml
- [19:39:46] <mkaply>
Address can have at most 1 v:extended-address property. A v:Address
- [19:39:46] <mkaply>
can have at most 1 v:street-address property
- [19:40:09] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples&diff=0&oldid=26099 * Tantek * (+79) TOC-right, see also hcalendar-examples-in-wild, fix RFC2445 references.
- [19:40:57] <tantek>
mkaply - those are new rules introduce in vCardXML that do not have any basis in vCard RFC2426
- [19:41:03] <tantek>
AFAIK
- [19:42:09] <mkaply>
That's the only reference I could find. Basically I need to know what it "should be" and I couldn't find anything in any spec.
- [19:42:40] <mkaply>
although our page says
- [19:42:46] <mkaply>
Singular properties: 'fn', 'n', 'bday', 'tz', 'geo', 'sort-string', 'uid', 'class'. For properties which are singular, the first descendant element with that class SHOULD take effect, any others being ignored.
- [19:42:46] <mkaply>
All other properties MAY be plural. Each class instance of such properties creates a new instance of that property.
- [19:42:46] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Singular_vs._Plural_Properties
- [19:42:53] <tantek>
correct
- [19:43:24] <tantek>
for reasons why, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Singular_and_Plural_derivations
- [19:43:37] <mkaply>
oops
- [19:43:42] <mkaply>
Singular Properties
- [19:43:42] <mkaply>
Note that all the properties in adr are singular properties, and thus the first descendant element with that class should take effect, any others being ignored.
- [19:43:44] <mkaply>
http://microformats.org/wiki/adr
- [19:44:00] <tantek>
oops indeed
- [19:44:21] <mkaply>
actually, the hcard spec wouldn't cover adr subproperties
- [19:44:26] <mkaply>
for instance, country-name is singular
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- [19:44:32] <mkaply>
as is postal-code, region
- [19:44:34] <mkaply>
locality
- [19:44:39] <mkaply>
post-office-box
- [19:44:42] <tantek>
how are you determining that?
- [19:44:52] <tantek>
according to what statement in what spec?
- [19:45:10] <mkaply>
I was thinking more logical. When would you have more than one country in an address?
- [19:45:21] <tantek>
it appears that the erroneous singular property assertion in the "adr" spec is my fault: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&oldid=1745#adr
- [19:45:30] <mkaply>
or more than one post-office-box?
- [19:46:12] <tantek>
mkaply, in that case, we should document that analysis *first* rather than asserting it as a rule.
- [19:46:18] <tantek>
that's what Ryan King and I did with hCard
- [19:46:25] <tantek>
and we documented our analyses here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties
- [19:46:37] <tantek>
perhaps you could draft a new page: http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-singular-properties
- [19:46:45] <tantek>
and document your logical analysis there?
- [19:46:52] <tantek>
that would be a good way to start solving this problem.
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- [19:48:08] <tantek>
Ryan and I basically analyzed both the language of the hCard specification, and did logical analysis on the semantics of each property to determine its singular vs. plural status. We wanted to minimize the introduction of new rules/assumptions as much as possible. Relying upon only the vCard specification and logical reasoning seemed the best way to do so.
- [19:49:49] <tantek>
sorry, I meant "language of the *vCard* specification*"
- [19:51:48] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=26100 * Tantek * (+517) documented reasoning and methodology
- [19:52:41] <mkaply>
The problem is I have no runway. I'm trying to decide what to do for FF3.
- [19:52:59] <mfbot>
[[adr-singular-properties]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-singular-properties * MikeKaply * (+730)
- [19:53:49] <tantek>
understood.
- [19:55:40] <tantek>
BTW, this http://www.w3.org/2006/vcard/ has numerous violations of our principles, including needless creation of new terms, e.g. "Name" for "n", "Address" for "adr", "Organization" for "org", "Location" for "geo" (that's really bad),
- [19:56:41] <tantek>
And I question all singularity assertions in that document, because it has some clearly flawed ones, e.g. "A v:Name can have at most 1 v:additional-name property." - we've seen many examples where people have multiple "middle" names for example. This is a really bad introduction/invention of a constraint not included nor even implied by vCard OR hCard.
- [19:57:08] <tantek>
I blame XML / XML-Schema.
- [19:57:35] <tantek>
I suppose I should document this somewhere...
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- [19:57:55] <mkaply>
please do. I only found it I think because I search on "vcard singular" or something like that
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- [20:12:02] <mfbot>
[[rfc-2426]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rfc-2426&diff=0&oldid=26101 * Tantek * (+1373) added other variants, An Ontology for vCards, Representing vCard Objects in RDF/XML, noted problems with those variants
- [20:13:56] <tantek>
mkaply, thanks for pointing out that other variant
- [20:14:07] <tantek>
I've documented two other vCard variants now, along with issues/problems.
- [20:14:59] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=26102 * Tantek * (-26) Reverted edit of CoorvIracc, changed back to last version by Tantek
- [20:16:12] <mfbot>
[[adr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=26103 * Tantek * (+55) fixed singular properties section, removed erroneous/unbased assertion of all singular properties (my bad?), added link to hCard singular props, and analysis in progress
- [20:16:33] <tantek>
mkaply, thanks for the analysis in progress, now linked to from the "adr" spec
- [20:18:38] <mfbot>
[[adr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr&diff=0&oldid=26104 * Tantek * (+158) updated affiliation, added inline hCard
- [20:19:19] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:CoorvIracc" with an expiry time of infinite: vandalism
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- [20:33:51] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer at http://edgeofmyseat.com
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- [20:56:53] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * RyanKing * (+0) blocked "User:CoorvIracc" with an expiry time of indefinite: spam
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- [20:59:29] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-faq&diff=0&oldid=26105 * Tantek * (+1703) added permalinkable headings for qs, rm dup/misplaced hCard FAQ, rm dup re: repeated events (ironic), grouped qs, reordered by best guess at frequency (highest first), add q&a re hCalendar in a table
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- [21:35:46] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [21:47:30] <mkaply>
tantek: just got the OK for SXSW
- [21:47:53] <mkaply>
Won't be attending anything on Sat or Sun though (just the meetup sat night) - i'll be there Mon/Tues
- [21:57:57] <tantek>
cool. add yourself: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive
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- [22:07:30] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26106 * Tantek * (+63) dates attending
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- [22:08:01] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [22:12:47] <mfbot>
[[events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2008-03-07-sxsw-interactive&diff=0&oldid=26107 * MikeKaply * (+16) attendees -
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- [22:27:44] <mkaply>
what a crappy rel link
- [22:27:45] <mkaply>
<LINK href="http://www.blogger.com/profile/00257888886038845883" rel="me"/>
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- [22:33:06] <tantek>
indeed: "Profile Not Available"
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- [22:49:06] <mkaply>
What should I do in my UI if I have a rel link that has no content?
- [22:49:36] <tantek>
probably depends somewhat on the specific rel microformat
- [22:50:49] <tantek>
if you mean rel="me" (per the above example), you could still provide a UI to show Google Social Graph API results on the href
- [22:52:00] <tantek>
specifically, the "Site Connectivity" demo
- [22:53:03] <tantek>
e.g.http://socialgraph-resources.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/samples/findyours.html?q=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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- [22:57:01] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-faq&diff=0&oldid=26108 * TobyInk * (+156) not supported currently -
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- [22:58:29] <mkaply>
I provide a UI for the link though. Like a name or something. Usually those are in an <a> tag
- [22:58:34] <mkaply>
ah well
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- [22:59:25] <tantek>
oh right
- [22:59:37] <tantek>
on <link> there should be a 'title' attribute suitable for using
- [22:59:46] <tantek>
with human readable text
- [23:00:25] <tantek>
lacking that, perhaps something simple and literal like "rel me link"
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- [23:44:52] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=26109 * Tantek * (+4290) added brainstorming for grouping events, thanks to TobyInk's noticing of the RELATED-TO property
- [23:45:43] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-faq&diff=0&oldid=26110 * Tantek * (+43) updated groups of events Q to reference hCalendar brainstorming to figure out
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- [23:52:10] <jibot>
iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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