IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-03-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:18:37] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:18:37] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  3. [00:32:04] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
  4. [00:32:27] * bear is now known as bear_afk
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  6. [00:32:55] * ajturner is now known as ajturner_
  7. [00:33:52] * ajturner_ is now known as ajturner
  8. [00:45:03] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) Quit ()
  9. [00:49:51] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-70-113-207-167.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.81-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
  10. [00:54:07] * madness (n=mng@client-81-109-188-17.hers.adsl.virgin.net) Quit ()
  11. [00:58:53] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=26111 * MarcLaporte * (+152) examples with some problems - should be fixed
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  18. [01:55:52] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
  19. [01:56:23] <flpucks> Hello.
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  85. [02:11:43] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) has joined #microformats
  86. [02:11:47] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  87. [02:16:55] * remi (n=remi@modemcable242.165-82-70.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  88. [02:16:56] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  120. [03:24:07] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  121. [03:41:48] * ajturner is now known as fireeagle_
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  154. [06:32:46] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  155. [06:32:46] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  157. [07:06:28] <jibot> pjkix is PJ Khalil a Web Developer in SF and can be found online at http://pjkix.com
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  163. [07:15:56] <jibot> SignpostMarv is a WordPress, Second Life and OpenID geek
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  197. [08:19:33] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  203. [08:43:03] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
  204. [08:50:32] * ddfreyne (n=ddfreyne@unaffiliated/ddfreyne) has joined #microformats
  205. [08:50:32] <jibot> ddfreyne is Denis Defreyne and blogs at http://stoneship.org/.
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  207. [09:01:11] * trovster (n=trovster@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  208. [09:01:11] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  211. [09:19:13] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=26112 * TobyInk * (+185) grouping rel value possibilities - My originally suggested rel values
  212. [09:22:40] <mfbot> [[hcomment]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcomment&diff=0&oldid=26113 * MarkNg * (+6) Human vs. Machine Readable -
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  218. [10:28:56] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  228. [11:17:09] <mfbot> [[hcard-cheatsheet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-cheatsheet&diff=0&oldid=26114 * MarkNg * (+0) Profile - fixing spelling mistake
  229. [11:47:36] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=26115 * QmpeopleQmpeople * (+144) Implementations -
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  231. [12:09:10] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=26116 * Tantek * (+848) removed incorrect (and turns out unimplemented) use of axis attribute, for tabular event listings
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  235. [12:34:39] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=26117 * TobyInk * (+98) rejected use of axis for more class names -
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  237. [13:00:49] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=26118 * QmpeopleQmpeople * (+1) Implementations -
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  247. [14:07:12] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=26119 * QmpeopleQmpeople * (-145) Implementations -
  248. [14:11:14] <mfbot> [[rel-tag]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag&diff=0&oldid=26120 * QmpeopleQmpeople * (+148) Examples in the Wild -
  249. [14:12:17] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  250. [14:12:17] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  252. [14:28:35] * a-ja (n=chatzill@70.230.164.41) has joined #microformats
  253. [14:29:57] <a-ja> tantek, et al: seen this yet? http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/NewFeatures.htm
  254. [14:41:55] * iand (n=iand@217.41.236.119) has joined #microformats
  255. [14:41:55] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  260. [15:13:12] * mkaply (n=mkaply@nat/ibm/x-8401ee759c52cd56) has joined #microformats
  261. [15:13:12] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  262. [15:19:49] * iand (n=iand@217.41.236.119) Quit (Connection timed out)
  263. [15:28:59] <a-ja> mkaply: hi Michael,,,,where's that bug fized?
  264. [15:29:33] <mkaply> a-ja: I'll update my build that's on my site. Give me 2 min
  265. [15:29:34] * ChrisSaad (n=Uncalfes@66.116.112.2) has joined #microformats
  266. [15:31:01] <a-ja> mkaply: seen the ie8 feature announcement about "Activities"?
  267. [15:31:09] <mkaply> a-ja: no
  268. [15:31:12] <mkaply> link?
  269. [15:31:17] <a-ja> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/NewFeatures.htm
  270. [15:32:38] <mkaply> I guess I should be flattered
  271. [15:33:47] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/operator/operator.xpi should be better
  272. [15:34:27] <mkaply> Web Slices are Microsummaries
  273. [15:34:31] <a-ja> tks...will grab it.
  274. [15:35:06] <a-ja> microsummaries in atom anyway
  275. [15:35:31] <mkaply> Interesting. They created the XML service we had discussed
  276. [15:35:41] <a-ja> mm hmm
  277. [15:35:46] <mkaply> Although they don't act on microformats. Just selected text
  278. [15:36:25] <mkaply> This would be really easy to implement as an extension in Firefox.
  279. [15:37:43] * thosh (n=thomas_s@deri-wg1.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  280. [15:39:18] <a-ja> well....gotta go shovel the walk before the next round blows in.....take care
  281. [15:39:39] * a-ja (n=chatzill@70.230.164.41) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.77-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.4/2006060814]")
  282. [15:41:01] <tantek> mkaply, the "Activities" screenshot on that page doesn't show "selected text", just clicking "near" the address.
  283. [15:41:38] <tantek> I wonder if they are detecting an hCard or adr and then exposing a context menu (right-click) for it to look it up in a map, similar to how an image or a link has its own context menu.
  284. [15:43:44] <mkaply> tantek: Neither
  285. [15:43:47] <mkaply> It works on selection
  286. [15:43:58] <mkaply> http://ie.microsoft.com/activities/en-en/OSDFiles/Yahoo%20Map.xml
  287. [15:43:58] <tantek> the screenshot doesn't show a selection
  288. [15:44:15] <mkaply> IT can act on selection, link or document
  289. [15:44:36] <mkaply> http://ie.microsoft.com/activities/en-en/OSDFiles/LiveMapManifest.xml
  290. [15:44:59] <mkaply> http://ie.microsoft.com/activities/en-en/OSDFiles/hotmail-activity.xml
  291. [15:45:29] <mkaply> I'm not sure if that little icon appears when a selection is made or what.
  292. [15:45:43] * vbgunz (n=vbgunz@72.186.68.186) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  293. [15:46:43] <mkaply> They kind of copied my actions idea though. Intersting
  294. [15:48:06] <tantek> there should be no need to "select"
  295. [15:48:17] <tantek> just as there is no need to select an image before you right-click on it and get a context-menu
  296. [15:48:59] <tantek> similarly there is no need to select a hyperlink before you right-click on it and get a context menu.
  297. [15:49:27] <tantek> that covers both rectangular and non-rectangular display cases. thus if you right-click on an hCard, you should get a context menu with all the Operator actions for an hCard.
  298. [15:49:57] <tantek> similarly if you right click on an hCalendar event, you should get a context menu with all the operator actions for an hCalendar event.
  299. [15:50:30] <mkaply> they aren't using microformats though. All they are doing for this is sending the selected text to the web service. They might be thinking microformats for the future, but this doesn't involve any
  300. [15:50:32] <tantek> if your code can detect whether something is a hyperlink or an image and put up a special menu, it can also detect whether you are clicking inside an hCard or hCalendar etc.
  301. [15:50:42] <tantek> mkaply, I'm thinking in general.
  302. [15:50:47] <tantek> for browsers UIs.
  303. [15:51:06] <tantek> no reason that FF3 couldn't add this simple bit of UI from Operator. nice and unintrusive.
  304. [15:51:07] <mkaply> I do that in Operator. I have an Operator context menu when you click on microformats
  305. [15:51:10] <tantek> it would be a good start.
  306. [15:51:33] <mkaply> We thought about replacing the context menu when you right clicked on a microformat but thought that would be to intrusive
  307. [15:52:34] <tantek> no, don't replace, simple add to it! just as it does for hyperlinks
  308. [15:52:57] <tantek> context menus are supposed to grow to add possible actions
  309. [15:53:22] <mkaply> tantek: except they can grow to be unwieldy :)
  310. [15:53:29] <mkaply> But again, Operator does that today. Most people don't know about that UI
  311. [15:53:37] <mkaply> right click on an hcard and you can access actions through there
  312. [15:55:41] <tantek> mkaply, take the simple example of clicking on a hyperlink to an email address, and note the menu items
  313. [15:55:54] <mkaply> yep
  314. [15:56:01] <tantek> start with enabling that same context menu on an hCard
  315. [15:56:06] <tantek> why is that so hard?
  316. [15:56:36] <tantek> btw, good news, looks like IE8 will be supporting some hAtom: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm - bad news, they appear to be creating their own poshformat called hslice. not sure this is a good trend. I have a feeling I have another conversation with Chris Wilson coming up.
  317. [15:56:45] <tantek> do we need poshformat naming conventions?
  318. [15:59:41] <mkaply> The problem was not with the idea, it was with the activties
  319. [15:59:44] <mkaply> See my post here
  320. [16:00:20] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/10/02/getting-microformats-working-with-web-services/
  321. [16:00:21] <mkaply> and here
  322. [16:00:24] <mkaply> http://www.kaply.com/weblog/2007/11/05/microformats-and-web-services-redux/
  323. [16:00:38] <mkaply> The issue is that there is no easy way to define in the browser "Send data x to here"
  324. [16:00:46] <mkaply> And the action architecture I created for Operator doesn't scale
  325. [16:01:04] <mkaply> What Microsoft has done here is interesting and could be the basis for what we hoped for - an open XML way to describe activities or actions
  326. [16:01:27] <mkaply> So all I could have done was define a few things that worked in the browser (export, yahoo contacts) with no way to extend it
  327. [16:01:57] <tantek> defining a few things with no way to extend is always the best way to start
  328. [16:02:12] <tantek> rather than attempting to boil the ocean with a framework/architecture/extensibility solution
  329. [16:02:15] <tantek> always
  330. [16:02:46] * cygri (n=cygri@deri-dmz2.nuigalway.ie) Quit ()
  331. [16:02:57] <tantek> it's how you learn enough to figure out what you need and don't need to build something more general
  332. [16:03:25] <mkaply> I don't think so in this case. Because then we would have 30 boxes saying "why was google calendar incuded and not us" or something like that. It wasn't worth hanging our hats on one particular service,.
  333. [16:03:34] <mkaply> Plus if the interface to that service changed, it would break Firefox
  334. [16:03:44] <mkaply> (which has happened - MapaQuest and Yahoo are good examples)
  335. [16:03:53] <mkaply> I wasn't willing to hardcode Firefox to connect to undocumented APIs.
  336. [16:04:01] <tantek> that's a good point
  337. [16:04:02] <mkaply> Which what all of these URL based APIs are
  338. [16:04:26] <mkaply> IT looks like Microsoft is going to work with vendors to solve that ( I hope :)
  339. [16:04:52] <mkaply> It will be interesting to see if the OpenService API is extended to include microformats.
  340. [16:05:48] <tantek> indeed
  341. [16:06:12] <tantek> would microformats + REST verbs be sufficient for most services?
  342. [16:07:44] * cygri (n=cygri@deri-dmz2.nuigalway.ie) has joined #microformats
  343. [16:08:43] <mkaply> Probably. The trick is that for isntance with yahoo contacts, there is a lot of Javascript to make magic happen because of their current API.
  344. [16:08:44] * cygri (n=cygri@deri-dmz2.nuigalway.ie) Quit (Client Quit)
  345. [16:08:54] <mkaply> If there was a standard REST API, that would certainly help
  346. [16:09:00] <mkaply> I thought about creating a server that did the transcoding.
  347. [16:09:07] <mkaply> Then I could fix API changes on the server.
  348. [16:09:14] <mkaply> But that seems like a lot of infastructure to maintain
  349. [16:09:53] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  350. [16:11:55] <tantek> well, the "if there was a standard REST API" could start with brainstorming one
  351. [16:12:08] <tantek> on http://microformats.org/wiki/rest
  352. [16:12:19] <tantek> and microformats-rest mailing list
  353. [16:12:57] <tantek> if you were to create one, there is a good chance we could get quite a few folks to quickly adopt (e.g. Plaxo)
  354. [16:13:06] <tantek> for things like "add to web address book"
  355. [16:13:20] <tantek> which feels *very* much like a standard REST verb with an hCard object
  356. [16:13:59] <tantek> in fact, time would probably be better spent defining such a standard REST API than coding to yet another proprietary javascript magic API.
  357. [16:14:26] <mkaply> tantek: Microsoft's is XML which is interesting. That's what I had originally thought of, because I pictured it being "discovered" like OpenSearch
  358. [16:14:32] <mkaply> which is clearly what Microsoft thought as well.
  359. [16:15:07] * pfefferle (n=pfefferl@p5B1271AA.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
  360. [16:15:49] <tantek> how does it compare to the OpenID methods of discovery e.g. XRDS?
  361. [16:16:09] <tantek> I'm wondering if there is more opportunity here for reuse and fewer formats.
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  366. [16:53:34] <mkaply> tantek: They are using microformat for some stuff
  367. [16:53:37] <mkaply> http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/ie/ie8/readiness/DevelopersNew.htm
  368. [16:53:38] <mkaply> the web slice
  369. [16:54:26] <mkaply> crap.
  370. [16:54:32] <mkaply> They invented their own microformats
  371. [16:54:35] <mkaply> <div class=”hslice” id=”1”>
  372. [16:54:35] <mkaply> <p class=”entry-title”>item - $66.00</p>
  373. [16:54:35] <mkaply> <div class=”entry-content”>high bidder:buyer1
  374. [16:54:35] <mkaply> …
  375. [16:54:35] <mkaply> </div>
  376. [16:54:36] <mkaply> </div>
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  389. [17:14:42] <mfbot> [[species]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=species&diff=0&oldid=26121 * PeterR * (+137) Examples in the wild -
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  416. [18:36:28] <mfbot> [[User:Tonys]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Tonys * Tonys * (+75)
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  426. [18:58:59] * pjkix (n=pkhalil@74.85.6.194) has joined #microformats
  427. [18:58:59] <jibot> pjkix is PJ Khalil a Web Developer in SF and can be found online at http://pjkix.com
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  431. [19:04:37] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  443. [19:53:26] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  447. [20:09:20] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  452. [20:17:25] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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  460. [20:36:51] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  461. [20:36:51] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  463. [21:00:49] <mfbot> [[Talk:events/xtech-2006]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:events/xtech-2006 * EajD0w * (+12105)
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  467. [21:15:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o bewest
  468. [21:15:56] <jibot> bewest is Ben West and lives in San Francisco, CA. He daydreams about web style software, works at Alexa.com and blogs at http://bewest.wordpress.com/
  469. [21:16:12] <bewest> hmmm has hatom support in IE8 been discussed?
  470. [21:16:30] <bewest> seems they changed a few things... changed the top level classname to something of their choosing
  471. [21:18:52] <bewest> s/hfeed/hslice/ and your content will show up in IE8's toolbar and be refreshed occasionally
  472. [21:19:05] <bewest> seems they also introduced a ttl property
  473. [21:20:46] <bewest> they re-used abbr pattern for an "endtime" property used to expire entries
  474. [21:21:24] <bewest> and they ignored linking constructs in favor of a new feedurl property
  475. [21:23:09] <bewest> unclear what kind of sandbox restrictions apply to the DOM
  476. [21:23:15] <bewest> they call the feature "web slices"
  477. [21:25:58] <bewest> http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567
  478. [21:26:10] <bewest> it's ironic that you can't use a browser to view the content
  479. [21:27:23] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
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  482. [21:40:33] <mfbot> [[mercurial-quick-start]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mercurial-quick-start&diff=0&oldid=26122 * RyanKing * (-228) minor cleanup
  483. [21:43:15] <mfbot> [[mercurial-quick-start]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mercurial-quick-start&diff=0&oldid=26123 * RyanKing * (+91)
  484. [21:48:01] <kingryan> bewest: there's been some email about this on uf-discuss
  485. [21:48:53] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) has joined #microformats
  486. [21:48:53] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  487. [21:50:22] * bewest nods
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  493. [22:07:46] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) has joined #microformats
  494. [22:07:46] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  495. [22:23:56] * InsomniaCity (n=insomnia@raptor.ukc.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
  496. [22:24:06] <InsomniaCity> erk - the IE8 beta feature list doesn't mention microformats
  497. [22:25:22] <InsomniaCity> although this Activities feature almost looks microformatty
  498. [22:26:48] <mfbot> [[geo-extension-nonWGS84]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo-extension-nonWGS84&diff=0&oldid=26124 * StuartLowe * (+824) Comments - Suggestion to include astronomical reference frames
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  503. [22:57:20] <jibot> iand is Ian Davis who blogs at http://iandavis.com/blog
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  508. [23:09:52] <jibot> mkaply is Michael Kaply <http://www.kaply.com/weblog/> and is the developer of Operator <https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/4106/>
  509. [23:10:17] * ajturner (n=ajturner@24.249.68.2) Quit ()
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  511. [23:14:13] * met_ (n=Hassman@r5bx220.net.upc.cz) Quit ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
  512. [23:32:42] <bewest> InsomniaCity: you have to look at the technical documentation
  513. [23:32:55] <bewest> InsomniaCity: ironically, I could only find pdf versions in release notes
  514. [23:33:12] <InsomniaCity> oh, so it is there?
  515. [23:33:28] <InsomniaCity> I guess expecting it in the top level user docs was wishful thinking :P
  516. [23:33:34] <bewest> InsomniaCity: http://code.msdn.microsoft.com/Release/ProjectReleases.aspx?ProjectName=ie8whitepapers&ReleaseId=567
  517. [23:36:52] <InsomniaCity> what am I looking for in particular?
  518. [23:37:30] <InsomniaCity> oh
  519. [23:37:34] <InsomniaCity> I see, WebSlices
  520. [23:37:37] <InsomniaCity> silly me
  521. [23:38:18] <InsomniaCity> I even read the luser description of webslices and didn't get it :P
  522. [23:43:44] * dbaron (n=dbaron@guest-228.mountainview.mozilla.com) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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