IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-04-25

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  11. [01:57:25] <mfbot> [[Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr * Ir9Ctr * (+13545)
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  32. [04:55:52] <mfbot> [[this-week-2008-04-14]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-2008-04-14&diff=0&oldid=26832 * Tantek * (+164) added one of many Mahalo supports microformats links
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  50. [07:41:28] <mfbot> [[Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=26833 * TobyInk * (-13545) deleted spam
  51. [07:50:50] <mfbot> [[measure]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26834 * TobyInk * (+152) Value -
  52. [07:51:41] <mfbot> [[measure]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26835 * TobyInk * (+0) Value Issues - Document possible issue with class="value"
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  57. [08:08:33] <mfbot> [[measure]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26836 * TobyInk * (+1178) Item - Item URI
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  91. [11:28:21] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=26837 * FirmenDb * (+159) examples to act on -
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  103. [12:11:57] <mfbot> [[Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet&diff=0&oldid=26838 * FstBk2 * (+13929)
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  126. [14:17:29] <mfbot> [[Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet&diff=0&oldid=26839 * TobyInk * (-13929) spam removed
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  128. [14:26:31] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet": spam
  129. [14:26:51] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:FstBk2" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  130. [14:27:38] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr": spam
  131. [14:27:49] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Ir9Ctr" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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  138. [14:57:37] <tobyink> @mkaply: I noticed your discussion with briansuda on IRC logs
  139. [14:58:25] <tobyink> the vcard rfc doesn't place limits (singular/plural) on any of the adr sub-properties. any may be plural.
  140. [15:00:07] <mkaply> tobyink: that's not the way I read it.
  141. [15:00:09] <tobyink> i can't think of any situation when post-office-box as plural, but as vcard doesn't prevent it from being so, i don't see any reason for placing additional restrictions in hcard.
  142. [15:00:32] <mkaply> it's not really abou restrictions, it's about generating the object representation.
  143. [15:01:04] <tobyink> the rfc says: "Where it makes semantic sense, individual text
  144. [15:01:04] <tobyink> components can include multiple text values (e.g., a "street"
  145. [15:01:04] <tobyink> component with multiple lines) separated by the COMMA character
  146. [15:01:04] <tobyink> (ASCII decimal 44)."
  147. [15:01:06] <mkaply> If I define something as plural then for all eternity, those entities need to be accessed as adr[0].region[0] vs. .region
  148. [15:02:01] <tantek> tobyink - the vcard RFC is not specific about a lot of things, and thus we've had to imply things like being singular/plural from the semantics and logical inference
  149. [15:02:07] <tobyink> seems easier (to me anyway) if they are *all* implemented as arrays in an object representation. means that consumers can treat them all in a consistent manner
  150. [15:02:25] <tantek> lack of explicit limits is not sufficient reason to object to them
  151. [15:03:00] <tantek> tobyink, easier for implementation is a lower priority than interoperability, semantic precision, and user friendliness
  152. [15:03:18] <tantek> if you find yourself designing a format by arguing for easier for implementation, you are almost certainly making a mistake
  153. [15:03:24] <tantek> by focusing on the wrong design goal
  154. [15:03:27] <tobyink> and as i say, all the other adr sub-properties have situations where duplicates make sense
  155. [15:03:44] <mkaply> tobyink: When would you have more than one street address?
  156. [15:03:48] <mkaply> or more than one postal code?
  157. [15:03:51] <mkaply> or more than one country?
  158. [15:03:51] <tantek> tobyink - I don't think so
  159. [15:03:53] <tobyink> it's also easier for authors to remember: they're all plural / sokme are plural, some singular
  160. [15:03:56] <tantek> I think this has already been written up
  161. [15:03:58] <tantek> on a wiki page
  162. [15:04:00] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-singular-properties
  163. [15:04:04] <tantek> right
  164. [15:04:31] <tantek> tobyink, if you can find *real world* examples that show exceptions to the reasoning on that page, please add them to the page
  165. [15:04:31] <mkaply> when adr in hCard was first defined, clearly extended-address was marked plural for a reason (whereas the rest were not). Not sure where that discussion happened.
  166. [15:04:35] <tobyink> street address: <span class="street-address">Alexandra House</span>, <span class="street-address">Oldham Terrace</span> (my address at work)
  167. [15:04:38] <tantek> otherwise, "I can think of a situation" is insufficient
  168. [15:04:43] <tantek> that's theoretical reasoning
  169. [15:04:57] <mkaply> tobyink: that's not a street address. Both of those are extended-address
  170. [15:06:00] <tobyink> postal code: the UK has two different postal code systems - "post codes" and "mailsort". (though mailsort is generally not shown on web pages).
  171. [15:06:23] <tobyink> country-name: <span class="country-name">Scotland</span>, <span class="country-name">UK</span>
  172. [15:06:39] <tantek> "generally not shown on web pages" is a good reason to leave something out of a microformat
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  174. [15:07:43] <tantek> tobyink, find examples in the wild of how Scotland addresses are published on the web, then document those URLs
  175. [15:07:43] <tobyink> @tantek: true, but as i said, consistancy is a Good Thing. allowing them all to be plural is not only easier for consumers, but also easier for authors to remember.
  176. [15:08:05] <tantek> "Good Thing" just means a principle
  177. [15:08:09] <tantek> it is not paramount
  178. [15:08:20] <tantek> consistency in particular has caused all kinds of design mistakes
  179. [15:08:23] <mkaply> The United Kingdom is a sovereign state, not a country :)
  180. [15:08:28] <tantek> that compromise more important principles
  181. [15:08:32] <tantek> so add that one too
  182. [15:08:36] <tobyink> footer here: http://www.hw.ac.uk/home/
  183. [15:08:47] <tantek> any time you are making design decisions *purely* for consistency, then you may be making a mistake as well
  184. [15:08:57] <tantek> since there are higher priority design constraints that you are likely ignoring
  185. [15:09:03] <tobyink> welcome message here: http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/
  186. [15:09:05] <tantek> tobyink - document it on the wiki
  187. [15:09:16] <tantek> as examples to be analyzed for that
  188. [15:10:16] <tobyink> title here: http://www.ges.gla.ac.uk:443/
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  191. [15:12:32] <mkaply> Noone disagrees that it might be used. It's a question of the common case. All the cases you pointed out could just have easily had <country-name>Scotland, UK</country-name>
  192. [15:13:26] <tantek> adactio explained to me a while ago how Scotland addresses worked but I forgot
  193. [15:13:28] <tantek> I would ask him
  194. [15:13:36] <tantek> I remember it not being a problem
  195. [15:13:55] <tantek> hence capture it as an issue on the wiki page with a permalink
  196. [15:14:07] <tantek> and then next time adactio is in here we can ask him via that link
  197. [15:14:27] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  198. [15:16:51] <mfbot> [[adr-singular-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=26840 * TobyInk * (+296)
  199. [15:17:45] <tobyink> added a few examples to that wiki page
  200. [15:18:41] <tobyink> in particular the locality example could not be replaced with something like <locality>Coogee, Sydney</locality> as there is a postcode interleaving between the two localities
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  210. [16:09:39] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=26841 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+72)
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  214. [16:58:30] <mfbot> [[Main Page-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26842 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+295)
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  217. [17:01:22] <mfbot> [[Main Page-th]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26844 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+8)
  218. [17:02:43] <mfbot> [[Main Page-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26845 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+3)
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  225. [17:21:00] <mfbot> [[faq-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/faq-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+25148)
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  228. [17:32:48] <mfbot> [[notable-users-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/notable-users-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+2522)
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  238. [18:13:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-in-wild-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-pending&diff=0&oldid=26847 * ConnerBw * (+127) New Examples -
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  242. [18:53:53] <mkaply> email type: INTERNET, x400, pref, "other IANA registered address types"
  243. [18:54:02] <mkaply> does anyone know of any other IANA registered address types?
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  245. [18:54:21] <mkaply> Should be allowing any type for email? but limiting adr and tel type to the lists?
  246. [18:54:30] <mkaply> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#adr_tel_email_types
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  263. [19:52:32] <tantek> mkaply the email type subproperty is not really that useful
  264. [19:52:39] <tantek> because 'internet' was a type
  265. [19:52:41] <tantek> among others
  266. [19:52:45] <tantek> and the others are largely obsolete
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  268. [19:52:50] <tantek> or certainly are on the web
  269. [19:52:52] <tantek> which is the focus here
  270. [19:53:19] <mkaply> yeah, I didn't think so. Right now in the microformat code, if there is a list of types, you can only have one of those types (which I think is the way it should be for adr and tel)
  271. [19:53:30] <mkaply> I'm wondering if I should remove that requirement for email
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  279. [20:47:58] <tantek> mkaply the type subproperty is multivalued
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  281. [20:48:06] <tantek> you can have work fax for example
  282. [20:48:11] <tantek> or work postal
  283. [20:48:14] <mkaply> tantek: And I allow that.
  284. [20:48:24] <mkaply> It's more can you have undefined types
  285. [20:49:13] <tantek> well they're supposed to be defined in some registry
  286. [20:49:18] <tantek> but then no one can find the registry
  287. [20:49:23] <tantek> so effectively it means nothing
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  289. [20:49:48] <mkaply> but for phone and adr, they are defined, correct? So I should just remove the requirement I currently have that email type be one of three values
  290. [20:49:52] <mkaply> but leave phone and adr alone?
  291. [20:50:12] <tantek> I think that makes the most sense
  292. [20:50:32] <tantek> we may want to consider simply dropping the "type" subproperty from email in hCard
  293. [20:50:42] <tantek> it's not used, nor is it useful
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