IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-04-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
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[[Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr * Ir9Ctr * (+13545)
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[[this-week-2008-04-14]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=this-week-2008-04-14&diff=0&oldid=26832 * Tantek * (+164) added one of many Mahalo supports microformats links
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[[Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr&diff=0&oldid=26833 * TobyInk * (-13545) deleted spam
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[[measure]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26834 * TobyInk * (+152) Value -
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[[measure]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26835 * TobyInk * (+0) Value Issues - Document possible issue with class="value"
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[[measure]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=measure&diff=0&oldid=26836 * TobyInk * (+1178) Item - Item URI
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[[hcalendar-examples-in-wild]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-examples-in-wild&diff=0&oldid=26837 * FirmenDb * (+159) examples to act on -
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[[Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet&diff=0&oldid=26838 * FstBk2 * (+13929)
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[[Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet&diff=0&oldid=26839 * TobyInk * (-13929) spam removed
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:events/2006-03-14-sxsw-modulet": spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:FstBk2" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) deleted "Talk:vcard-suggestions-fr": spam
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[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Ir9Ctr" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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- [14:57:37] <tobyink>
@mkaply: I noticed your discussion with briansuda on IRC logs
- [14:58:25] <tobyink>
the vcard rfc doesn't place limits (singular/plural) on any of the adr sub-properties. any may be plural.
- [15:00:07] <mkaply>
tobyink: that's not the way I read it.
- [15:00:09] <tobyink>
i can't think of any situation when post-office-box as plural, but as vcard doesn't prevent it from being so, i don't see any reason for placing additional restrictions in hcard.
- [15:00:32] <mkaply>
it's not really abou restrictions, it's about generating the object representation.
- [15:01:04] <tobyink>
the rfc says: "Where it makes semantic sense, individual text
- [15:01:04] <tobyink>
components can include multiple text values (e.g., a "street"
- [15:01:04] <tobyink>
component with multiple lines) separated by the COMMA character
- [15:01:04] <tobyink>
(ASCII decimal 44)."
- [15:01:06] <mkaply>
If I define something as plural then for all eternity, those entities need to be accessed as adr[0].region[0] vs. .region
- [15:02:01] <tantek>
tobyink - the vcard RFC is not specific about a lot of things, and thus we've had to imply things like being singular/plural from the semantics and logical inference
- [15:02:07] <tobyink>
seems easier (to me anyway) if they are *all* implemented as arrays in an object representation. means that consumers can treat them all in a consistent manner
- [15:02:25] <tantek>
lack of explicit limits is not sufficient reason to object to them
- [15:03:00] <tantek>
tobyink, easier for implementation is a lower priority than interoperability, semantic precision, and user friendliness
- [15:03:18] <tantek>
if you find yourself designing a format by arguing for easier for implementation, you are almost certainly making a mistake
- [15:03:24] <tantek>
by focusing on the wrong design goal
- [15:03:27] <tobyink>
and as i say, all the other adr sub-properties have situations where duplicates make sense
- [15:03:44] <mkaply>
tobyink: When would you have more than one street address?
- [15:03:48] <mkaply>
or more than one postal code?
- [15:03:51] <mkaply>
or more than one country?
- [15:03:51] <tantek>
tobyink - I don't think so
- [15:03:53] <tobyink>
it's also easier for authors to remember: they're all plural / sokme are plural, some singular
- [15:03:56] <tantek>
I think this has already been written up
- [15:03:58] <tantek>
on a wiki page
- [15:04:00] <mkaply>
http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-singular-properties
- [15:04:04] <tantek>
right
- [15:04:31] <tantek>
tobyink, if you can find *real world* examples that show exceptions to the reasoning on that page, please add them to the page
- [15:04:31] <mkaply>
when adr in hCard was first defined, clearly extended-address was marked plural for a reason (whereas the rest were not). Not sure where that discussion happened.
- [15:04:35] <tobyink>
street address: <span class="street-address">Alexandra House</span>, <span class="street-address">Oldham Terrace</span> (my address at work)
- [15:04:38] <tantek>
otherwise, "I can think of a situation" is insufficient
- [15:04:43] <tantek>
that's theoretical reasoning
- [15:04:57] <mkaply>
tobyink: that's not a street address. Both of those are extended-address
- [15:06:00] <tobyink>
postal code: the UK has two different postal code systems - "post codes" and "mailsort". (though mailsort is generally not shown on web pages).
- [15:06:23] <tobyink>
country-name: <span class="country-name">Scotland</span>, <span class="country-name">UK</span>
- [15:06:39] <tantek>
"generally not shown on web pages" is a good reason to leave something out of a microformat
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- [15:07:43] <tantek>
tobyink, find examples in the wild of how Scotland addresses are published on the web, then document those URLs
- [15:07:43] <tobyink>
@tantek: true, but as i said, consistancy is a Good Thing. allowing them all to be plural is not only easier for consumers, but also easier for authors to remember.
- [15:08:05] <tantek>
"Good Thing" just means a principle
- [15:08:09] <tantek>
it is not paramount
- [15:08:20] <tantek>
consistency in particular has caused all kinds of design mistakes
- [15:08:23] <mkaply>
The United Kingdom is a sovereign state, not a country :)
- [15:08:28] <tantek>
that compromise more important principles
- [15:08:32] <tantek>
so add that one too
- [15:08:36] <tobyink>
footer here: http://www.hw.ac.uk/home/
- [15:08:47] <tantek>
any time you are making design decisions *purely* for consistency, then you may be making a mistake as well
- [15:08:57] <tantek>
since there are higher priority design constraints that you are likely ignoring
- [15:09:03] <tobyink>
welcome message here: http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/
- [15:09:05] <tantek>
tobyink - document it on the wiki
- [15:09:16] <tantek>
as examples to be analyzed for that
- [15:10:16] <tobyink>
title here: http://www.ges.gla.ac.uk:443/
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- [15:12:32] <mkaply>
Noone disagrees that it might be used. It's a question of the common case. All the cases you pointed out could just have easily had <country-name>Scotland, UK</country-name>
- [15:13:26] <tantek>
adactio explained to me a while ago how Scotland addresses worked but I forgot
- [15:13:28] <tantek>
I would ask him
- [15:13:36] <tantek>
I remember it not being a problem
- [15:13:55] <tantek>
hence capture it as an issue on the wiki page with a permalink
- [15:14:07] <tantek>
and then next time adactio is in here we can ask him via that link
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- [15:16:51] <mfbot>
[[adr-singular-properties]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-singular-properties&diff=0&oldid=26840 * TobyInk * (+296)
- [15:17:45] <tobyink>
added a few examples to that wiki page
- [15:18:41] <tobyink>
in particular the locality example could not be replaced with something like <locality>Coogee, Sydney</locality> as there is a postcode interleaving between the two localities
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[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=26841 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+72)
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[[Main Page-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+10543)
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[[Main Page-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26842 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+295)
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[[Main Page-th]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26843 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+5)
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[[Main Page-th]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26844 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+8)
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[[Main Page-th]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-th&diff=0&oldid=26845 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+3)
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[[faq-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/faq-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+25148)
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[[faq-th]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq-th&diff=0&oldid=26846 * SukitArseanrapoj * (+3)
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[[notable-users-th]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/notable-users-th * SukitArseanrapoj * (+2522)
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[[hcard-examples-in-wild-pending]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-in-wild-pending&diff=0&oldid=26847 * ConnerBw * (+127) New Examples -
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- [18:53:53] <mkaply>
email type: INTERNET, x400, pref, "other IANA registered address types"
- [18:54:02] <mkaply>
does anyone know of any other IANA registered address types?
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- [18:54:21] <mkaply>
Should be allowing any type for email? but limiting adr and tel type to the lists?
- [18:54:30] <mkaply>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#adr_tel_email_types
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- [19:52:32] <tantek>
mkaply the email type subproperty is not really that useful
- [19:52:39] <tantek>
because 'internet' was a type
- [19:52:41] <tantek>
among others
- [19:52:45] <tantek>
and the others are largely obsolete
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- [19:52:50] <tantek>
or certainly are on the web
- [19:52:52] <tantek>
which is the focus here
- [19:53:19] <mkaply>
yeah, I didn't think so. Right now in the microformat code, if there is a list of types, you can only have one of those types (which I think is the way it should be for adr and tel)
- [19:53:30] <mkaply>
I'm wondering if I should remove that requirement for email
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- [20:47:58] <tantek>
mkaply the type subproperty is multivalued
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- [20:48:06] <tantek>
you can have work fax for example
- [20:48:11] <tantek>
or work postal
- [20:48:14] <mkaply>
tantek: And I allow that.
- [20:48:24] <mkaply>
It's more can you have undefined types
- [20:49:13] <tantek>
well they're supposed to be defined in some registry
- [20:49:18] <tantek>
but then no one can find the registry
- [20:49:23] <tantek>
so effectively it means nothing
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- [20:49:48] <mkaply>
but for phone and adr, they are defined, correct? So I should just remove the requirement I currently have that email type be one of three values
- [20:49:52] <mkaply>
but leave phone and adr alone?
- [20:50:12] <tantek>
I think that makes the most sense
- [20:50:32] <tantek>
we may want to consider simply dropping the "type" subproperty from email in hCard
- [20:50:42] <tantek>
it's not used, nor is it useful
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