IRC Log for #microformats on 2008-06-21
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:15:12] <Atamido>
tantek: There are no issues with my hCard. http://microformatique.com/optimus/?format=validate&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fportal.beecavetexas.com%2Fmaps.php%3Fmethod%3Ddetails%26cat%3D2%26loc%3D2
- [00:18:39] <Atamido>
Somehow I'll need to let mkaply know there is an issue with the Operator add-on.
- [00:20:46] <pjkix>
so is it beer:30 yet? when do the celebrations start :P
- [00:28:08] <tantek>
18:30 :)
- [00:29:36] <mfbot>
[[hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-xfn-supporting-friends-lists&diff=0&oldid=27375 * Tantek * (+169) added NYTimes TimesPeople
- [00:29:37] <mfbot>
[[hcard-supporting-user-profiles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-supporting-user-profiles&diff=0&oldid=27376 * Tantek * (+169) added NYTimes TimesPeople
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- [01:07:39] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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- [02:31:23] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [04:19:29] <jibot>
rmarkwhite is Robert Mark White
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- [07:36:43] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:36:08] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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- [09:50:24] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
- [09:52:03] <tobyink>
@Atamido - noticed your query on the IRC Log. The reason your geo isn't detected by Operator is that Operator (by default) ignores microformats with display:none
- [09:53:06] <Atamido>
If I place the display:none in an external style sheet?
- [09:53:38] <tobyink>
Same deal I'm afraid. You could try doing something like position:absolute;left:-1000px.
- [09:53:47] <Atamido>
Hmmm....
- [09:54:30] <tobyink>
(However, note off-page positioned elements are often read by screen readers, whereas display:none elements are not.)
- [09:54:55] <Atamido>
I guess I could just make it hidden instead of none.
- [09:56:09] <tobyink>
Not sure if that would work. You *might* be able to trick it by making the geo itself display:inline, but the longitude and latitude child elements display:none. I've not tried it, but I think it might work.
- [09:57:15] <tobyink>
There is also of course an option in Operator preferences to enable hidden microformats - which helps *you* see it, but not necessarily any visitors using Operator.
- [09:58:32] <Atamido>
That's a shame.
- [10:00:15] <Atamido>
It's really sad because the vast majority of the time there isn't a reason to display the numerical longitude/latitude numbers.
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- [10:01:57] <tobyink>
I can see the logic in mkaply's decision to not show hidden microformats. Imagine a DHTMLy page where several different contacts are attached to different tabs in a tab-based interface, the tabs being hidden and shown using Javascript. In that situation, it would make sense for the toolbar to only show the currently visible contacts. But still it's annoying in other situations.
- [10:03:05] <Atamido>
Perhaps showing hidden sub microformats of visible microformats?
- [10:03:37] <tobyink>
Ways of using geo without displaying numbers: show a map, use lat;long in alt, give class="geo".
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- [10:03:59] <tobyink>
Ways of using geo without displaying numbers: abbr (though accessibility concerns)
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- [10:23:12] <Atamido>
Heh, when generating a .vcf, Operator includes the geo information.
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- [11:54:28] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
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- [12:04:53] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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- [12:22:33] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [12:55:25] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27377 * Phae * (+628) starting stub for class / data stuff
- [12:56:01] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27378 * Phae * (-1) ISO date-time in class -
- [12:58:27] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27379 * Phae * (+139) Machine-data in class -
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- [13:06:03] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [13:06:59] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27380 * TobyInk * (+206) Machine-data in class -
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- [13:53:22] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27381 * Phae * (+13) Machine-data in class -
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- [13:57:17] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
- [13:57:55] <Phae>
hi toby. hope you don't mind me moving your point.
- [13:58:10] <Phae>
just felt it would be better moved out since it was your thoughts on the matter
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- [14:27:57] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli http://www.csarven.ca
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- [14:41:49] <tobyink>
@phae - no, don't mind.
- [14:42:27] <Phae>
:)
- [14:43:24] <tobyink>
@phae - I am, right now implementing experimental support for it in Cognition. I've fleshed the proposal out a bit in my head, allowing the data-X classes to contain percent-encoded characters (e.g. use %20 to encode spaces within the value) and also specifying behaviour for when multiple data-X classes are found on the same element.
- [14:45:12] <Phae>
okay, sounds great. it'd be cool if you coud add what your parser will be assuming to the wiki
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- [15:21:32] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27382 * TobyInk * (+1171) Outline of experimental support for this pattern in next Cognition release.
- [15:22:22] <tobyink>
@Phae - support added, documented on Wiki.
- [15:24:20] <Phae>
thx toby!
- [15:24:30] <Phae>
ben ward and i are both at mashed today and tomorrow
- [15:24:39] <Phae>
so it's turning out to be a good time to talk about this stuff
- [15:24:46] <Phae>
i've pointed him at it
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- [16:11:07] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
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- [17:22:13] <tantek>
Phae, the brainstorm of using class to store data has come up in the past, and as before, I think it is a bad idea. It violates a lot of our current assumptions about the use of the class attribute, and could be said to "pollute" class, which was meant for "sub-classing" HTML elements.
- [17:22:48] <tantek>
More reasons why this is a bad idea can probably be found in the mailing list, though I have no idea how to effectively search for such messages (another reason email is a poor medium for capturing discussions).
- [17:40:42] <Phae>
ok. whatever reasons they are need to be documented on the wiki
- [17:41:09] <Phae>
ben and i tried to find stuff in the mailing list archives and failed
- [17:41:51] <Phae>
they=there.
- [17:42:02] <Phae>
sorry. at mashed. dr who on, lights rather dim.
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- [17:44:52] <jibot>
BenWard is a Web Developer at Yahoo! Europe and an admin at microformats.org and based in the UK and better defined at http://ben-ward.co.uk
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- [18:09:15] <csarven>
tantek Sure "email is dead" but for now it can reach a far more people then IRC or even the changes made to the Wiki (I personally don't know how to get an email on my Watched pages)
- [18:09:44] <tantek>
Phae - I'll try to look it up too.
- [18:10:09] <tantek>
It really starts running into problems when the (often) convenient microformats practice of putting more than one semantic on the same element is used.
- [18:10:22] <csarven>
Another note on IRC: Effective discussions only occur in real-time when there are enough parties are present.
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- [18:10:44] <Phae>
sure. we did talk about that. but couldn't come up with a case where you'd have one element needing two pieces of data on it.
- [18:10:46] <tantek>
csarven, ironically, what I said wasn't that email was dead, but precisely the opposite of what you said. that is, that email doesn't scale: http://tantek.com/log/2008/02.html#d19t2359
- [18:10:53] <Phae>
but that's the kinda thing we need to document on the wiki and explore properly
- [18:11:01] <Phae>
the mailing list is tough for that sort of thing
- [18:11:03] <Phae>
and gets lost
- [18:11:08] <tantek>
Phae - the two pieces of info on one element happens all the time on <img> and <a href>
- [18:11:11] <tantek>
in the wild even
- [18:11:14] <tantek>
e.g. Twitter
- [18:11:15] <Phae>
add to wiki.
- [18:11:33] <tantek>
right
- [18:12:04] <Phae>
it might not be a problem we can't resolve tho. etc.
- [18:12:31] <tantek>
but in summary, my objections are conceptual (abuse of class which is meant for subclass, invisible metadata bad), and practical (interferes with the reasonably common use of multiple pieces of data on the same element, img with photo and alt text, a href with url and fn etc.)
- [18:12:59] <tantek>
plus in talking with adactio this past week, I think there are better alternatives, which deserve exploring.
- [18:13:01] <Phae>
i think we all know of the conceptual issues. it's the possible practical implications we're trying to explore
- [18:13:12] <Phae>
well, they too need to be documented
- [18:13:31] <Phae>
i'm in a situation at the moment at work where we're about to lose vast sets of hCal due to abbr
- [18:13:53] <tantek>
right, that's precisely the problem that adactio and I discussed
- [18:14:18] <BenWard>
Well, is that discussion documented?
- [18:14:36] <tantek>
no it was some verbal brainstorming to see if there was anything worth documenting
- [18:15:02] <tantek>
the short version is, just as we have "shorthands" in hCard, and the "value" excerpt pattern, it may be possible (and practically a good thing too) to introduce "longhand" excerpt pattern for date and time
- [18:15:25] <BenWard>
The alternative I last talked to adactio about is what's become my effort to document the value-excerption-pattern and possible empty-element–based extension of it.
- [18:16:12] <tantek>
yes, and he talked to me about that which I objected to based on the fact that it was invisible metadata
- [18:16:14] <tantek>
empty elements that is
- [18:16:16] <tantek>
no better than commented RDF
- [18:16:34] <tantek>
the alternative that we brainstormed: as there is "value", it may be possible to split datetime properties into a "datevalue" and a "timevalue" which could be on different elements, which actually may better fit many content publishing practices.
- [18:16:42] <BenWard>
Well, we have many instances of embedding fixed format machine data into microformats which don't match publisher's content.
- [18:17:05] <tantek>
BenWard, and each of those is an indicator that we should seek a *better* solution, but not compromise on the principle of visible data.
- [18:17:34] <tantek>
If you are willing to go the path of invisible metadata, you might as well just go back to all the parallel DRY-violating stuff that all pre-microformats efforts did.
- [18:18:15] <BenWard>
It's not about invisible metadata, it's about having machine-formats required for parsing, which aren't part of visible page content.
- [18:18:57] <tantek>
back to datevalue and timevalue - the point is, that each of those, by itself, in ISO8601 is both just fine readable/accessible. it's only when they are combined that there is a problem.
- [18:19:04] <csarven>
Doesn't that go straight against microformats approach on "marking visible data"?
- [18:19:22] <tantek>
and actually, ISO8601 dates are *more* internationally accessible than locale specific dates.
- [18:19:23] <BenWard>
The combination is a problem, and even when not, they are not what publishers displa in the content
- [18:19:46] <BenWard>
No, internationalisation isn't the same problem as accessibility
- [18:20:09] <tantek>
but it is a mistake to consider them separately
- [18:20:12] <tantek>
that's the problem
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- [18:20:28] <tantek>
because the goal should be to be *both* international and accessible
- [18:20:34] <csarven>
Isn't internationalisation a subset of "accessibility"?
- [18:20:39] <tantek>
the best combination of both to reach the most people worldwide
- [18:20:52] <BenWard>
Even if one date format is consumable by people internationally, that doesn't align with how publishers actually display dates in their pages
- [18:20:53] <tantek>
whether their differences are in ability or language
- [18:21:09] <tantek>
BenWard, and that difference in publishing is already solved by abbr
- [18:21:21] <BenWard>
If a page is written in French, it's irrelevant if a German speaker is able to read the dates amongst the content
- [18:21:22] <tantek>
and as Adactio demonstrated, the abbr-date pattern is just fine
- [18:21:54] <BenWard>
In some instances, yes.
- [18:22:25] <tantek>
well it certainly isn't a critical problem like that datetime accessibility issues
- [18:22:43] <tantek>
so I'd rather prioritize on the bigger problems
- [18:22:44] <csarven>
BenWard That is true for the human readers but would a German speaker be interested in grabbing the event data from a French document?
- [18:22:52] <tantek>
and my understanding is that the BBC issues are with datetime
- [18:23:05] <tantek>
csarven, travel much?
- [18:23:12] <tantek>
in short yes.
- [18:23:14] <Phae>
the bbc has accessibility issues with tooltips displaying non-human-friendly content
- [18:23:27] <Phae>
(or reading out if you're a SR)
- [18:23:34] <tantek>
Phae, is that specifically documented on the wiki? (the particular BBC issues)
- [18:24:02] <Phae>
no - i gave out the new guidelines on mf-dev that are the results of our issues
- [18:24:06] <tantek>
focusing on solving the real practical issues raised will help us reach a solution faster than attempting to generalize from issues raised
- [18:24:13] <Phae>
i'll document them on the wiki when the new documentatin is published
- [18:24:17] <Phae>
which'll be monday
- [18:24:21] <tantek>
cool.
- [18:25:27] <Phae>
our new guidelines are here: http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2008-June/000552.html for the benefit of the tape/log ;)
- [18:25:46] <tantek>
generalizing broader issues from specific issues raised is one of the fatal methodical flaws that has held up much work in formats in general in various organizations.
- [18:26:12] <tantek>
s/methodical/methodological
- [18:26:12] <csarven>
tantek Right. The point I was trying to make was that solving accessibility issues presumably should solve internationalisation issues indirectly.
- [18:26:20] <tantek>
csarven, it does not
- [18:26:41] <csarven>
Doesn't it with abbr/ISO8601?
- [18:26:48] <tantek>
because the vast majority of the time, focusing on "just" solving accessibility issues equates to solving them for English-only speakers
- [18:27:03] <tantek>
and actually may make internationalization *worse*
- [18:27:28] <csarven>
Perhaps I fail to see the internationalisation issue in abbr/ISO8601
- [18:27:32] <tantek>
you actually have to keep both those constraints in mind simultaneously, or else you will/may solve one at the expense of the other
- [18:27:51] <tantek>
csarven, it is quite the opposite, ISO8601 provides an internationalization *advantage*, not issue
- [18:28:03] <csarven>
Ok, "advantage"
- [18:28:13] <BenWard>
The approach with value-excerption-pattern is to work around the core issue.
- [18:28:15] <tantek>
2008-06-21 is more understandable by more people worldwide, with a variety of abilities than any other date format.
- [18:28:26] <BenWard>
But that isn't what people publish
- [18:28:33] <tantek>
BenWard, but that's a different issue
- [18:29:18] <tantek>
abbr solves the international vs. local representation problem
- [18:29:34] <tantek>
and nested span with title solves the display problem (for those that care)
- [18:29:51] <BenWard>
It's a different issue which is core to the microformats process. We should be supporting existing publishing practice. And where parsers cannot reasonable handle existing publishing practice, such as the plethora of date formats used around the world, or the translation of ‘cell’ to ‘mobile’ in the UK, or the used of degree co-ordinates over decimal… we have to find a way that fits alongside their publishing
- [18:30:00] <csarven>
tantek Sure, so if the problem to solve is to make the date as accessible (i.e., to most) as possible then doesn't that indirectly provide an "advantage" for i18n?
- [18:30:31] <tantek>
csarven, no, see above about how focusing on "just" accessibility usually equates to English-only accessibility
- [18:30:53] <tantek>
so no, you cannot assume "indirectly provide an advantage" - in practice it doesn't work.
- [18:31:07] <csarven>
But do we not both agree that 2008-06-21 is most accessible?
- [18:31:36] <tantek>
yes, but that conclusion only came about because I confronted Richard Ishida of W3C about it, and got him to analyze it and agree
- [18:31:49] <tantek>
this was at @media 2007 in San Francisco
- [18:31:56] <tantek>
and that was a huge breakthru
- [18:32:10] <tantek>
because until then, the "common" assumption was that 6/21/08 was more accessible
- [18:32:27] <tantek>
and maybe if you narrow your thinking to US-only you may have a case
- [18:32:50] <tantek>
however, as soon as you broaden to include the world ( = internationalization), it becomes really obvious that 2008-06-21 is more accessible than 6/21/08
- [18:33:47] <BenWard>
I don't understand why internationalisation is an issue here. I don't see how that is a problem that there is demand to be solved in microformats.
- [18:33:49] <tantek>
BenWard, abbr *does* support existing publishing practice, and is "a way that fits alongside their publishing"
- [18:34:11] <tantek>
BenWard, i18n helps us *better* solve accessibility problems, that's the point.
- [18:34:38] <BenWard>
Differing local date formats are just part of language, just part of how people write and how people publish
- [18:34:55] <BenWard>
The local date format is accessible to the audience of the page
- [18:35:01] <tantek>
too many of the accessibility issues raised / theoretical solutions raised sacrifice i18n, and thus it is important to use i18n a defense against bad proposals
- [18:35:21] <tantek>
the audience of a web page is the world, whether or not people realize it.
- [18:35:22] <BenWard>
From a microformats formats point of view, our methods simple have to not break the accessibility of the native content
- [18:35:56] <BenWard>
Tantek, yes. But if it is in a foreign language, then it has to be translated for an English speaker to consume.
- [18:36:05] <BenWard>
Translating local date formats is part of that.
- [18:36:12] <tantek>
BenWard, not necessarily
- [18:36:18] <tantek>
that's the point. math is universal. time is universal.
- [18:36:24] <tantek>
no reason to make those *worse*
- [18:36:39] <tantek>
and many folks can read parts of foreign languages
- [18:36:45] <csarven>
BenWard Which components from the foreign document will be translated to the English speaker?
- [18:36:46] <tantek>
the natural words etc.
- [18:37:08] <tantek>
and things like event times are particularly useful to people not familiar with a language
- [18:37:17] <BenWard>
Yes, but understanding local date formats is part of understanding a foreign language
- [18:37:45] <tantek>
it's not, because time is a physical quantity, whereas foreign languages are human concepts
- [18:37:52] <tantek>
don't conflate the two
- [18:38:36] <tantek>
we're just trying to represent dates and times, not all human thought in all human languages
- [18:38:57] <tantek>
i.e. don't boil the ocean, and don't conflate making a cup of tea with boiling the ocean
- [18:39:03] <BenWard>
Yes. And we are trying to represent dates and times within documents in many different languages
- [18:40:00] <tantek>
BenWard, not really sure why you are pursuing this line of argument. dates and times are much simpler than arbitrary language, there are far fewer datetime formats than human languages etc.
- [18:40:14] <tantek>
why are you conflating them so and needlessly making your framing that much more complex?
- [18:40:21] <BenWard>
We're not trying to solve the problem of consuming dates from documents in one language by speakers of other languages. The problem is describing dates in a way that can be parsed by machines in a way that doesn't damage the local language content.
- [18:40:39] <BenWard>
I didn't lead this into internationalisation :) I don't think internationalisation should be any part of this problem
- [18:41:04] <tantek>
no, but you led it into foreign languages, which is not the problem
- [18:41:17] <tantek>
not all i18n is about languages
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- [18:42:24] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
- [18:42:32] <tantek>
anyway, you completely ignored what I wrote about datevalue and timevalue above. please at least take a look at those ideas before continuing to reiterate your problem statement.
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- [18:43:09] <BenWard>
OK, I've lost track of your point. Can you restate, clearly, what you mean by internationalisation in this context, and it affects our need to include machine parsable data formats within microformats/
- [18:43:26] <BenWard>
*and <ins>how</ins> it affects
- [18:44:15] <tantek>
1. accessibility issues have been raised. 2. considering i18n actually helps create *more* accessible solutions. that's it.
- [18:44:32] <tantek>
Now could you please take a look at�!�se ideas before continuing to reiterate your problem statement?
- [18:44:39] <tantek>
I'm off for a while.
- [18:45:24] <BenWard>
OK. They're serving sausages and mash at Mashed (no pun…), so I shall get fed I think :)
- [18:45:37] <Phae>
yay
- [18:45:51] <BenWard>
Enjoy your day, T :)
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- [18:46:16] <tommorris>
Pie!
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- [19:12:25] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
- [19:16:57] <tobyink>
@Tantek - just caught up on discussion re machine data inclusion on IRC log. You mentioned the point that it needs to take into account the situation where multiple microformat property classes are applied to the same element - yet it is no worse in that situation than the existing abbr pattern is.
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- [19:58:47] <jibot>
tobyink is tobyink
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- [20:08:22] <jibot>
BenWard is a Web Developer at Yahoo! Europe and an admin at microformats.org and based in the UK and better defined at http://ben-ward.co.uk
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- [20:12:09] <mfbot>
[[datetime-design-pattern]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=datetime-design-pattern&diff=0&oldid=27383 * TobyInk * (+16) Experimental Parser Support - Add some manual formatting
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- [20:12:51] <brady_k>
hello everyone
- [20:13:54] <brady_k>
question: i'm implementing microformats in every way that I can find in a new open source project i've started... i was wondering if someone who's more familiar with microformats could help me make sure I did it correctly / improve it?
- [20:15:10] <mfbot>
[[value-excerption-pattern-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=value-excerption-pattern-issues&diff=0&oldid=27384 * BenWard * (-13) Depth of Parsing - Fix stray <code> element in example
- [20:16:09] <brady_k>
ok well if anyone's interested in helping out on a cool new open source gig, PM me and we can talk... thanks!
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- [22:35:01] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [23:16:50] <tantek>
tobyink - "that situation" occurs commonly on <img> and <a href>, not <abbr>, and thus yes, it is worse / orthogonal to the current abbr pattern.
- [23:17:45] <tantek>
brady_k - assuming u r searching for replies, post a sample URL of output of some of the project(s), or URLs to the projects themselves so folks can take a look
- [23:18:05] <tantek>
go ahead and talk about it here in the channel, no need to go PM for *open* source projects right?
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- [23:23:26] <jibot>
tommorris is a semantic web geek (with a philosophy degree, naturally), lives in East Sussex, UK, is something of a strange quark (strangeness value: -1) and blogs at http://tommorris.org
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