IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-01-20
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:11:39] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "Adjusted content order, added clear non-datetime example to emphasise this is not *just* about abbr-datetime-pattern." (+815) http://is.gd/gvO1
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- [00:17:28] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "expanded content around the 'please test this please please please' paragraph." (+155) http://is.gd/gvQ6
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- [00:31:14] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "comma -> semicolon." (+0) http://is.gd/gvUI
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- [01:07:18] <tantek>
Benward, do you think we should propose a microformats meetup dinner for tomorrow night? Or defer to all the inevitable inauguration celebrations?
- [01:07:41] <benward>
Oh, that slipped my mind.
- [01:07:57] <benward>
Errrm, well it's my first day back at work, so I'll likely be late back into SF anyway
- [01:08:27] <benward>
Depends if we think we can find a venue quiet enough to fit in. It would be nice to have one to discuss the value-excerp test effort
- [01:08:34] <benward>
But not essential
- [01:11:24] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added successful consumption testing in Fx3, Saf3, Opera9" (+595) http://is.gd/gw6Q
- [01:12:07] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Fixed typo in Opera version number." (+0) http://is.gd/gw72
- [01:13:43] <tantek>
I agree that it would be nice to discuss the progress made on the value-excerption effort, and next steps.
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- [01:19:16] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added Fx3.1ß, Internet Explorer: Mac successes" (+196) http://is.gd/gw93
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- [04:59:24] <mfbot>
BenWard edited User:BenWard "/* Active Work */ Updated ‘active work’" (+426) http://is.gd/gxbm
- [05:01:21] <mfbot>
BenWard edited User:BenWard "Updated job title." (-2) http://is.gd/gxcp
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- [05:52:25] <csarven>
Say a user profile page in microblogs, would you mark an hCard with both fn and nickname as such: <a class="nickname url uid" href="...">csarven</a> and <span class="fn">Sarven Capadisli</span> ? The reason I'm asking this is because nicknames are usually mentioned everywhere else on the site and points to the profile page as such: <a class="url" href="..."><span class="fn nickname">csarven</span></a>
- [05:55:17] <tantek>
fn is required for hCard so something is necessary
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- [05:59:15] <csarven>
tantek I'm wondering mostly about the placement of fn in the profile page
- [06:00:17] <tantek>
if all that is available is the userid then "fn nickname" is all that you can do
- [06:00:23] <csarven>
In one case the hCard is marked as <span class="fn nickname">csarven<span> but on another the fn is not the same as nickname
- [06:00:30] <csarven>
Right.
- [06:00:38] <tantek>
and the hCard parser/consumer will have to just keep track of the fact that they happened to be the same
- [06:00:51] <tantek>
in that one instance vs the other
- [06:01:25] <csarven>
I can't remember but was there any association between uid and fn?
- [06:01:35] <csarven>
They don't have to be on the same element right?
- [06:01:43] * csarven should look it up
- [06:03:55] <csarven>
Okay, so, I think that representation in the profile page is okay
- [06:10:00] <tantek>
uid applies to the href like url
- [06:10:21] <tantek>
there is a uid+url pattern on the wiki
- [06:14:59] <csarven>
I guess fn is not needed to consolidate an identity.
- [06:15:07] <tantek>
correct
- [06:15:44] <csarven>
You may be 'tantek' or 'tc' or 'tantek celik' as long as the uid+url is the same in those instances.
- [06:16:12] <tantek>
right
- [06:16:34] <csarven>
Cool. Not sure where I got the fn from. Thought it was involved but any wa.y.
- [06:16:50] <tantek>
though an "fn" specified by itself, with multiple implied n components, clearly provides richer data than a one-word "fn" that is the same as the "nickname"
- [06:17:08] <tantek>
and thus that reasoning can be used when merging hCards to prefer the richer rn
- [06:17:10] <tantek>
fn
- [06:17:29] <csarven>
aha!
- [06:23:37] <csarven>
Do you think it would make sense to have more then one uid per hCard?
- [06:23:50] <tantek>
not per site, no
- [06:25:53] <csarven>
I was thinking for something like this: <a class="uid">linking to the current profile page</a> and
- [06:25:53] <csarven>
<a class="uid"> linking to user's personal site </a>
- [06:26:29] <csarven>
(both would most likely have rel="me" but I'm just focusing on uid now)
- [06:26:52] <tantek>
for the latter, simply use rel="me" as described http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability#Design_Patterns_and_Recipes
- [06:27:15] <tantek>
a site owner cannot guarantee that the URL entered by the user is a UID for the user
- [06:27:32] <tantek>
but a site owner *can* guarantee that a profile URL on the site itself is a UID for the user
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- [06:28:32] <csarven>
So, this would most likely throw away hCard uid in blog comments
- [06:29:23] <tantek>
not sure what you mean - a URL to an example such hCard would help
- [06:32:31] <csarven>
What I'm saying is that a comment with an hCard uid is not reliable because of what you said: site owner can't guarantee that the commenter is really the person that they claim to be.
- [06:46:47] <csarven>
Hmm.. microid is not really mentioned for this in the Wiki. Only a single reference in hcard-brainstorming
- [06:47:06] <tantek>
it's not particularly useful
- [06:47:39] <tantek>
a bunch of complexity that doesn't really achieve any functionality beyond the simple rel="me"
- [06:48:29] <csarven>
Well, there are differences.
- [06:49:30] <csarven>
If you point to your site in a comment, your site is most likely not going to point to the hCard that you left a comment with rel="me"
- [06:50:07] <tantek>
it doesn't need to
- [06:50:50] <csarven>
Then, I don't see how rel="me" works in this case.
- [06:51:06] <tantek>
the blog comment case is one better suited to OpenID for the entire scenario
- [06:51:25] <tantek>
especially if you use your own site as your OpenID (as you should)
- [06:52:00] <csarven>
Right.
- [06:52:15] <tantek>
and also for reducing spam comments
- [06:52:17] <csarven>
So, how is rel="me" more practical over microid in this case?
- [06:52:35] <tantek>
microid makes no sense in that case anyway as it depends on document head access which you don't have in a blog comment
- [06:53:27] <tantek>
basically, on the web, there are no cases where microid provides any additional advantage, while it always provides extra complexity. therefore it can be ignored.
- [06:54:17] <csarven>
No, the meta microid content resides on your site, there just happens to be the same references generated by the site owner when you leave a comment with your url+uid
- [06:55:17] <csarven>
uri+uri
- [06:56:30] <tantek>
but since that can be faked on the site, as part of the comment, it provides no additional advantage beyond rel="me" to just your URL
- [06:56:42] <tantek>
adding a level of abstraction/obfuscation doesn't change that
- [06:56:51] <tantek>
even if it does obscure the understanding of it
- [06:58:15] <csarven>
I'm not sure if I understand how rel="me" works in a list of comments. Is it okay to have multiple rel="me"s on the same page?
- [06:58:49] <tantek>
sorry - rel="me" on a comment in a series of comments does not make sense
- [06:59:08] <tantek>
it only makes sense from a page representing a person to a whole other page representing a person
- [06:59:30] <tantek>
I think I may have misunderstood your question about that earlier.
- [06:59:32] <csarven>
Right. So, we can't really compare rel="me" with microid as far as making sure that the person that left the comment is really who they claim to be.
- [06:59:48] <tantek>
well we can, in that microid can't guarantee anything more
- [07:00:04] <tantek>
as it doesn't give you any more reliability/depdendability either
- [07:00:10] <tantek>
as any one-way rel-me
- [07:00:25] <csarven>
I was just exploring what you mentioned about who can guarantee the reliability of a UID.
- [07:01:34] <tantek>
UIDs can only be guaranteed inside a site, not across sites
- [07:01:39] <csarven>
I think there is some guarantee (regardless of the complexity) with microid if a user enters their UID
- [07:01:40] <csarven>
Right.
- [07:02:09] <tantek>
there is no more guarantee with a user entering a microid than a user entering a URL
- [07:02:15] <csarven>
It is not bullet proof either.
- [07:02:32] <tantek>
therefore microid, since it is more complex, is a waste of time.
- [07:03:02] <csarven>
Ya, I can see that. Unless you happen to use a secret email that you don't give out and use that along with your uid
- [07:03:16] <tantek>
this kind of approach btw, adding complexity without solving the problem, is a common format/protocol/computerscience mistake.
- [07:03:57] <tantek>
it's a good reason to be suspicious of approaches that depend on hiding some magic codes in invisible places (like meta / head)
- [07:04:06] <csarven>
This is exploring possibilities. Sometimes a complex solution is better then a no solution.
- [07:04:11] <tantek>
rarely
- [07:04:30] <tantek>
far more often a complex solution provides an illusion that lulls people into a false sense os security
- [07:04:34] <tantek>
of security
- [07:05:01] <csarven>
For instance, NLP is indeed complex, it doesn't mean it is a waste of time.
- [07:05:10] <tantek>
and OTOH preferring approaches that use simple, visible techniques, tends to be a way toward creating things that are more reliably
- [07:05:12] <tantek>
reliable
- [07:05:53] <tantek>
the complexity from NLP comes from the algorithms though, the code, the process. not from the data.
- [07:06:16] <tantek>
and for that matter, NLP is very limited, and typically very domain language specific.
- [07:06:39] <tantek>
(usually fails pretty miserably outside of English)
- [07:07:41] <csarven>
Well.. if go down that route of whether marking up every data bit with a semantic representation I think we soon see that, that is a waste of time. (I'm not favouring one over the other here) :)
- [07:07:57] <tantek>
"every data bit" = strawman. no one is advocating that.
- [07:08:20] <csarven>
Either way.. let's say 'some'
- [07:08:20] <tantek>
on the contrary, that's why microformats pushes back with only trying to solve 80%
- [07:08:23] <csarven>
Still that is a lot.
- [07:08:51] <tantek>
yes, and we don't do it all at once
- [07:09:01] <tantek>
on the contrary, we look at popular types of data being published first
- [07:09:25] <tantek>
and thus by being based on data type popularity, we are solving the problems that will have the biggest impact, first.
- [07:09:55] <tantek>
which actually results in the opposite of what you say. we solve problems in their order of importance - the opposite of "wasting time"
- [07:12:05] <csarven>
Well, I'm sure you don't believe that some application of NLP is useless and that marking data is a good replacement for it.
- [07:12:23] <csarven>
I don't see how they need be opposites.
- [07:13:41] <tantek>
application of NLP has known i18n limitations which make it pretty much a waste of time as far as formats for the Web are concerned
- [07:14:48] <tantek>
they are not opposites, but in as much are they both take time, pursuing NLP is not worth the opportunity cost as compared to working on microformats
- [07:21:38] <mfbot>
Tantek edited social-network-anti-patterns "add StockTwits violation of passwordantipattern" (+350) http://is.gd/gxKz
- [07:25:30] <csarven>
Should LinkedIn be in that SNAP page?
- [07:26:27] <csarven>
I remember they allow you to import your address book from your Webmail provider.
- [07:27:13] <tantek>
if you could capture screenshots of the offending user interface pages that demonstrated the password antipattern and post them to Flickr that would help
- [07:27:20] * csarven kinda likes the SNAP abbr
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- [07:31:23] <csarven>
Woah.. okay. Way past my bed time.
- [07:31:36] <csarven>
Good chat tantek. TTYL.
- [07:31:59] <tantek>
same to you csarven. TTYL!
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- [08:39:28] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* hCal#1: An hCalendar dtstart */ Fixed a `href` that should be a `class` in hCal example." (+1) http://is.gd/gy0W
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- [11:36:47] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test results for IE6, 7 and 8b2" (+661) http://is.gd/gyIX
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- [12:47:16] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test result for Safari 2" (+82) http://is.gd/gz2o
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- [12:54:35] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test result for Firefox 2" (+307) http://is.gd/gz4z
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- [13:14:03] <mfbot>
ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ rename "method" to "procedure" ? no to "fn". some rewordings" (+1301) http://is.gd/gzaW
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- [13:31:16] <mfbot>
ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ on the difference between a title and a summary" (+779) http://is.gd/gzht
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ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ typo" (-2) http://is.gd/gzhz
- [13:40:58] <mfbot>
ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ " (+3) http://is.gd/gzkv
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ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ "preparation" instead of "method"?" (+163) http://is.gd/gzzY
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ThomasLoertsch edited User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1 "/* Root Class Name */ soemthings wrong with this sentence" (+7) http://is.gd/gzF0
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- [17:21:54] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "Added failed test - TinyMCE" (+850) http://is.gd/gAP3
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- [17:44:39] <Atamido>
Is it possible to use a mouse in a browser and extract the computer readable time from the ABBR date/time pattern without viewing the source?
- [17:46:42] <SignpObamarv>
most browsers present title attributes as tooltips
- [17:48:08] <SignpObamarv>
if you're bored you could always write a greasemonkey script to add the contents of the abbr title attribute as a child element to the abbr tag
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- [17:59:38] <SignpObamarv>
i think you might actually be able to use CSS3 geekery to accomplish that
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- [18:29:57] <BobJonkman>
Atamido: Some browsers let you view the element properties, which should enumerate the "title" attribute. Eg. on Firefox right-click on the element and select "Properties"; on Chrome right-click and select "Inspect" (but that shows page source)
- [18:32:48] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Failed Tests */ Added test information for FCKEditor, improved test information for TinyMCE" (+897) http://is.gd/gBfc
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- [18:48:08] <Atamido>
BobJonkman: Thanks, I had no idea you could pull up the properties like that. I'd been thinking of a way to embed the MD5 hash of a file in this page in a way where it wasn't normally visible, but still accessible, and that might be a good way.
- [18:49:55] <Atamido>
Or at least shorter.
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- [22:50:59] <mfbot>
TobyInk edited User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1 "/* Root Class Name */ Thanks Thomas - fixed." (+82) http://is.gd/gDeh
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- [22:58:11] <mfbot>
Tantek edited oomph "added Oomph button spotted in the wild" (+197) http://is.gd/gDgN
- [23:11:19] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: TinyMCE 3.2.1.1 */ Added follow up to TinyMCE test failure + workarounds." (+527) http://is.gd/gDlm
- [23:12:13] <mfbot>
BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: FCKEditor 2.6.4 Beta */ Added followup for FCKEditor publishing." (+404) http://is.gd/gDlv
- [23:20:24] <mfbot>
GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: FCKEditor 2.6.4 Beta */ Added work around for FCKEditor empty span issues" (+447) http://is.gd/gDod
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