IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-01-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:11:39] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "Adjusted content order, added clear non-datetime example to emphasise this is not *just* about abbr-datetime-pattern." (+815) http://is.gd/gvO1
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  4. [00:17:28] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "expanded content around the 'please test this please please please' paragraph." (+155) http://is.gd/gvQ6
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  10. [00:31:14] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "comma -> semicolon." (+0) http://is.gd/gvUI
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  15. [01:07:18] <tantek> Benward, do you think we should propose a microformats meetup dinner for tomorrow night? Or defer to all the inevitable inauguration celebrations?
  16. [01:07:41] <benward> Oh, that slipped my mind.
  17. [01:07:57] <benward> Errrm, well it's my first day back at work, so I'll likely be late back into SF anyway
  18. [01:08:27] <benward> Depends if we think we can find a venue quiet enough to fit in. It would be nice to have one to discuss the value-excerp test effort
  19. [01:08:34] <benward> But not essential
  20. [01:11:24] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added successful consumption testing in Fx3, Saf3, Opera9" (+595) http://is.gd/gw6Q
  21. [01:12:07] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Fixed typo in Opera version number." (+0) http://is.gd/gw72
  22. [01:13:43] <tantek> I agree that it would be nice to discuss the progress made on the value-excerption effort, and next steps.
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  24. [01:19:16] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added Fx3.1ß, Internet Explorer: Mac successes" (+196) http://is.gd/gw93
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  31. [04:59:24] <mfbot> BenWard edited User:BenWard "/* Active Work */ Updated ‘active work’" (+426) http://is.gd/gxbm
  32. [05:01:21] <mfbot> BenWard edited User:BenWard "Updated job title." (-2) http://is.gd/gxcp
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  34. [05:52:25] <csarven> Say a user profile page in microblogs, would you mark an hCard with both fn and nickname as such: <a class="nickname url uid" href="...">csarven</a> and <span class="fn">Sarven Capadisli</span> ? The reason I'm asking this is because nicknames are usually mentioned everywhere else on the site and points to the profile page as such: <a class="url" href="..."><span class="fn nickname">csarven</span></a>
  35. [05:55:17] <tantek> fn is required for hCard so something is necessary
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  39. [05:59:15] <csarven> tantek I'm wondering mostly about the placement of fn in the profile page
  40. [06:00:17] <tantek> if all that is available is the userid then "fn nickname" is all that you can do
  41. [06:00:23] <csarven> In one case the hCard is marked as <span class="fn nickname">csarven<span> but on another the fn is not the same as nickname
  42. [06:00:30] <csarven> Right.
  43. [06:00:38] <tantek> and the hCard parser/consumer will have to just keep track of the fact that they happened to be the same
  44. [06:00:51] <tantek> in that one instance vs the other
  45. [06:01:25] <csarven> I can't remember but was there any association between uid and fn?
  46. [06:01:35] <csarven> They don't have to be on the same element right?
  47. [06:01:43] * csarven should look it up
  48. [06:03:55] <csarven> Okay, so, I think that representation in the profile page is okay
  49. [06:10:00] <tantek> uid applies to the href like url
  50. [06:10:21] <tantek> there is a uid+url pattern on the wiki
  51. [06:14:59] <csarven> I guess fn is not needed to consolidate an identity.
  52. [06:15:07] <tantek> correct
  53. [06:15:44] <csarven> You may be 'tantek' or 'tc' or 'tantek celik' as long as the uid+url is the same in those instances.
  54. [06:16:12] <tantek> right
  55. [06:16:34] <csarven> Cool. Not sure where I got the fn from. Thought it was involved but any wa.y.
  56. [06:16:50] <tantek> though an "fn" specified by itself, with multiple implied n components, clearly provides richer data than a one-word "fn" that is the same as the "nickname"
  57. [06:17:08] <tantek> and thus that reasoning can be used when merging hCards to prefer the richer rn
  58. [06:17:10] <tantek> fn
  59. [06:17:29] <csarven> aha!
  60. [06:23:37] <csarven> Do you think it would make sense to have more then one uid per hCard?
  61. [06:23:50] <tantek> not per site, no
  62. [06:25:53] <csarven> I was thinking for something like this: <a class="uid">linking to the current profile page</a> and
  63. [06:25:53] <csarven> <a class="uid"> linking to user's personal site </a>
  64. [06:26:29] <csarven> (both would most likely have rel="me" but I'm just focusing on uid now)
  65. [06:26:52] <tantek> for the latter, simply use rel="me" as described http://microformats.org/wiki/social-network-portability#Design_Patterns_and_Recipes
  66. [06:27:15] <tantek> a site owner cannot guarantee that the URL entered by the user is a UID for the user
  67. [06:27:32] <tantek> but a site owner *can* guarantee that a profile URL on the site itself is a UID for the user
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  69. [06:28:32] <csarven> So, this would most likely throw away hCard uid in blog comments
  70. [06:29:23] <tantek> not sure what you mean - a URL to an example such hCard would help
  71. [06:32:31] <csarven> What I'm saying is that a comment with an hCard uid is not reliable because of what you said: site owner can't guarantee that the commenter is really the person that they claim to be.
  72. [06:46:47] <csarven> Hmm.. microid is not really mentioned for this in the Wiki. Only a single reference in hcard-brainstorming
  73. [06:47:06] <tantek> it's not particularly useful
  74. [06:47:39] <tantek> a bunch of complexity that doesn't really achieve any functionality beyond the simple rel="me"
  75. [06:48:29] <csarven> Well, there are differences.
  76. [06:49:30] <csarven> If you point to your site in a comment, your site is most likely not going to point to the hCard that you left a comment with rel="me"
  77. [06:50:07] <tantek> it doesn't need to
  78. [06:50:50] <csarven> Then, I don't see how rel="me" works in this case.
  79. [06:51:06] <tantek> the blog comment case is one better suited to OpenID for the entire scenario
  80. [06:51:25] <tantek> especially if you use your own site as your OpenID (as you should)
  81. [06:52:00] <csarven> Right.
  82. [06:52:15] <tantek> and also for reducing spam comments
  83. [06:52:17] <csarven> So, how is rel="me" more practical over microid in this case?
  84. [06:52:35] <tantek> microid makes no sense in that case anyway as it depends on document head access which you don't have in a blog comment
  85. [06:53:27] <tantek> basically, on the web, there are no cases where microid provides any additional advantage, while it always provides extra complexity. therefore it can be ignored.
  86. [06:54:17] <csarven> No, the meta microid content resides on your site, there just happens to be the same references generated by the site owner when you leave a comment with your url+uid
  87. [06:55:17] <csarven> uri+uri
  88. [06:56:30] <tantek> but since that can be faked on the site, as part of the comment, it provides no additional advantage beyond rel="me" to just your URL
  89. [06:56:42] <tantek> adding a level of abstraction/obfuscation doesn't change that
  90. [06:56:51] <tantek> even if it does obscure the understanding of it
  91. [06:58:15] <csarven> I'm not sure if I understand how rel="me" works in a list of comments. Is it okay to have multiple rel="me"s on the same page?
  92. [06:58:49] <tantek> sorry - rel="me" on a comment in a series of comments does not make sense
  93. [06:59:08] <tantek> it only makes sense from a page representing a person to a whole other page representing a person
  94. [06:59:30] <tantek> I think I may have misunderstood your question about that earlier.
  95. [06:59:32] <csarven> Right. So, we can't really compare rel="me" with microid as far as making sure that the person that left the comment is really who they claim to be.
  96. [06:59:48] <tantek> well we can, in that microid can't guarantee anything more
  97. [07:00:04] <tantek> as it doesn't give you any more reliability/depdendability either
  98. [07:00:10] <tantek> as any one-way rel-me
  99. [07:00:25] <csarven> I was just exploring what you mentioned about who can guarantee the reliability of a UID.
  100. [07:01:34] <tantek> UIDs can only be guaranteed inside a site, not across sites
  101. [07:01:39] <csarven> I think there is some guarantee (regardless of the complexity) with microid if a user enters their UID
  102. [07:01:40] <csarven> Right.
  103. [07:02:09] <tantek> there is no more guarantee with a user entering a microid than a user entering a URL
  104. [07:02:15] <csarven> It is not bullet proof either.
  105. [07:02:32] <tantek> therefore microid, since it is more complex, is a waste of time.
  106. [07:03:02] <csarven> Ya, I can see that. Unless you happen to use a secret email that you don't give out and use that along with your uid
  107. [07:03:16] <tantek> this kind of approach btw, adding complexity without solving the problem, is a common format/protocol/computerscience mistake.
  108. [07:03:57] <tantek> it's a good reason to be suspicious of approaches that depend on hiding some magic codes in invisible places (like meta / head)
  109. [07:04:06] <csarven> This is exploring possibilities. Sometimes a complex solution is better then a no solution.
  110. [07:04:11] <tantek> rarely
  111. [07:04:30] <tantek> far more often a complex solution provides an illusion that lulls people into a false sense os security
  112. [07:04:34] <tantek> of security
  113. [07:05:01] <csarven> For instance, NLP is indeed complex, it doesn't mean it is a waste of time.
  114. [07:05:10] <tantek> and OTOH preferring approaches that use simple, visible techniques, tends to be a way toward creating things that are more reliably
  115. [07:05:12] <tantek> reliable
  116. [07:05:53] <tantek> the complexity from NLP comes from the algorithms though, the code, the process. not from the data.
  117. [07:06:16] <tantek> and for that matter, NLP is very limited, and typically very domain language specific.
  118. [07:06:39] <tantek> (usually fails pretty miserably outside of English)
  119. [07:07:41] <csarven> Well.. if go down that route of whether marking up every data bit with a semantic representation I think we soon see that, that is a waste of time. (I'm not favouring one over the other here) :)
  120. [07:07:57] <tantek> "every data bit" = strawman. no one is advocating that.
  121. [07:08:20] <csarven> Either way.. let's say 'some'
  122. [07:08:20] <tantek> on the contrary, that's why microformats pushes back with only trying to solve 80%
  123. [07:08:23] <csarven> Still that is a lot.
  124. [07:08:51] <tantek> yes, and we don't do it all at once
  125. [07:09:01] <tantek> on the contrary, we look at popular types of data being published first
  126. [07:09:25] <tantek> and thus by being based on data type popularity, we are solving the problems that will have the biggest impact, first.
  127. [07:09:55] <tantek> which actually results in the opposite of what you say. we solve problems in their order of importance - the opposite of "wasting time"
  128. [07:12:05] <csarven> Well, I'm sure you don't believe that some application of NLP is useless and that marking data is a good replacement for it.
  129. [07:12:23] <csarven> I don't see how they need be opposites.
  130. [07:13:41] <tantek> application of NLP has known i18n limitations which make it pretty much a waste of time as far as formats for the Web are concerned
  131. [07:14:48] <tantek> they are not opposites, but in as much are they both take time, pursuing NLP is not worth the opportunity cost as compared to working on microformats
  132. [07:21:38] <mfbot> Tantek edited social-network-anti-patterns "add StockTwits violation of passwordantipattern" (+350) http://is.gd/gxKz
  133. [07:25:30] <csarven> Should LinkedIn be in that SNAP page?
  134. [07:26:27] <csarven> I remember they allow you to import your address book from your Webmail provider.
  135. [07:27:13] <tantek> if you could capture screenshots of the offending user interface pages that demonstrated the password antipattern and post them to Flickr that would help
  136. [07:27:20] * csarven kinda likes the SNAP abbr
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  138. [07:31:23] <csarven> Woah.. okay. Way past my bed time.
  139. [07:31:36] <csarven> Good chat tantek. TTYL.
  140. [07:31:59] <tantek> same to you csarven. TTYL!
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  143. [08:39:28] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* hCal#1: An hCalendar dtstart */ Fixed a `href` that should be a `class` in hCal example." (+1) http://is.gd/gy0W
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  159. [11:36:47] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test results for IE6, 7 and 8b2" (+661) http://is.gd/gyIX
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  164. [12:47:16] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test result for Safari 2" (+82) http://is.gd/gz2o
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  166. [12:54:35] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Successful Tests */ Added consuming test result for Firefox 2" (+307) http://is.gd/gz4z
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  169. [13:14:03] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ rename "method" to "procedure" ? no to "fn". some rewordings" (+1301) http://is.gd/gzaW
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  171. [13:31:16] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ on the difference between a title and a summary" (+779) http://is.gd/gzht
  172. [13:31:48] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ typo" (-2) http://is.gd/gzhz
  173. [13:40:58] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ " (+3) http://is.gd/gzkv
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  176. [14:28:47] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited hrecipe-issues "/* issues */ "preparation" instead of "method"?" (+163) http://is.gd/gzzY
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  180. [14:43:04] <mfbot> ThomasLoertsch edited User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1 "/* Root Class Name */ soemthings wrong with this sentence" (+7) http://is.gd/gzF0
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  198. [17:21:54] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "Added failed test - TinyMCE" (+850) http://is.gd/gAP3
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  201. [17:44:39] <Atamido> Is it possible to use a mouse in a browser and extract the computer readable time from the ABBR date/time pattern without viewing the source?
  202. [17:46:42] <SignpObamarv> most browsers present title attributes as tooltips
  203. [17:48:08] <SignpObamarv> if you're bored you could always write a greasemonkey script to add the contents of the abbr title attribute as a child element to the abbr tag
  204. [17:55:07] * broheem (n=broheem@72.16.138.81) has joined #microformats
  205. [17:59:38] <SignpObamarv> i think you might actually be able to use CSS3 geekery to accomplish that
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  210. [18:29:57] <BobJonkman> Atamido: Some browsers let you view the element properties, which should enumerate the "title" attribute. Eg. on Firefox right-click on the element and select "Properties"; on Chrome right-click and select "Inspect" (but that shows page source)
  211. [18:32:48] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Failed Tests */ Added test information for FCKEditor, improved test information for TinyMCE" (+897) http://is.gd/gBfc
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  215. [18:41:30] * SignpObamarv is now known as SignpostMarv
  216. [18:48:08] <Atamido> BobJonkman: Thanks, I had no idea you could pull up the properties like that. I'd been thinking of a way to embed the MD5 hash of a file in this page in a way where it wasn't normally visible, but still accessible, and that might be a good way.
  217. [18:49:55] <Atamido> Or at least shorter.
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  255. [22:50:59] <mfbot> TobyInk edited User:TobyInk/hcalendar-1.1 "/* Root Class Name */ Thanks Thomas - fixed." (+82) http://is.gd/gDeh
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  257. [22:58:11] <mfbot> Tantek edited oomph "added Oomph button spotted in the wild" (+197) http://is.gd/gDgN
  258. [23:11:19] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: TinyMCE 3.2.1.1 */ Added follow up to TinyMCE test failure + workarounds." (+527) http://is.gd/gDlm
  259. [23:12:13] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: FCKEditor 2.6.4 Beta */ Added followup for FCKEditor publishing." (+404) http://is.gd/gDlv
  260. [23:20:24] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-excerption-value-title-test "/* Browser WYSIWYG editor: FCKEditor 2.6.4 Beta */ Added work around for FCKEditor empty span issues" (+447) http://is.gd/gDod
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