IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-01-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:05:53] * kavi_ (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-a0416f86b807ea8d) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:08:33] * tantek (n=tantek@c-98-210-153-142.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  3. [00:16:48] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-80-3-170-146.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  4. [00:23:15] * kavi (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-efc59a185a50f7f8) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  5. [00:29:52] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-198-94.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) has joined #microformats
  6. [00:33:58] * BobJonkman1 (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  7. [00:38:38] * kavi_ (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-a0416f86b807ea8d) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]")
  8. [00:46:31] * georgebrock_ (n=georgebr@client-80-3-172-65.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  9. [00:47:13] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) has joined #microformats
  10. [00:47:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  11. [00:52:08] * BobJonkman (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  12. [01:04:37] * SignpostMarv (n=Martin@78.33.151.156) Quit ("Leaving")
  13. [01:11:03] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) has joined #microformats
  14. [01:11:58] * georgebrock_ (n=georgebr@client-80-3-172-117.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) has joined #microformats
  15. [01:25:04] * georgebrock_ (n=georgebr@client-80-3-172-117.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit ()
  16. [01:27:47] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-198-94.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  17. [01:29:17] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-76-228-82-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net) Quit ()
  18. [01:29:49] * DanC (n=connolly@69.76.220.64) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  19. [01:31:36] * benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-0f64543b92d0050e) Quit ("Yays! Hometime!")
  20. [01:47:26] * DanC (n=connolly@69.76.220.64) has joined #microformats
  21. [01:50:47] * tantek (n=tantek@c-69-181-105-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  22. [01:50:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  23. [02:06:40] * tantek_ (n=tantek@32.158.221.254) has joined #microformats
  24. [02:12:40] * tantek (n=tantek@c-69-181-105-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  25. [02:36:11] * tantek (n=tantek@76-191-151-56.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) has joined #microformats
  26. [02:36:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  27. [02:57:59] <mfbot> Tantek edited social-network-anti-patterns "add freshly launched Plinky - Find Your Friends - password anti-pattern. sigh." (+490) http://is.gd/gUpz
  28. [03:05:28] * tantek_ (n=tantek@32.158.221.254) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  29. [03:06:00] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-issues "added more related pages cross-links" (+85) http://is.gd/gUsl
  30. [03:41:07] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "add related link to value-excerption-value-title-test, noted value-title as more restrictive iteration of "parsing title from empty value elements", adv over empty value elements, call for testing" (+1353) http://is.gd/gUD4
  31. [03:55:53] * tantek is working on writing up date and time separation test analogous to the value excerption value title tests
  32. [03:56:10] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "add date time separation test section with link to value-excerption-dt-separation-test" (+288) http://is.gd/gUHm
  33. [04:51:43] * benward (n=benward@c-98-210-153-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  34. [04:51:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o benward
  35. [05:10:23] <tantek> greetings benward
  36. [05:10:30] <benward> Hi tantek
  37. [05:10:41] <tantek> I've linked up a bunch of the value-excerption pages a bit to enable better navigation among them
  38. [05:10:57] <tantek> ... and currently working on the date and time separation tests
  39. [05:12:19] <benward> Awesome
  40. [05:12:32] <benward> Emily Lewis has been an absolute star
  41. [05:12:39] <benward> She's not updated the wiki yet
  42. [05:13:00] <benward> But she's tested a whole load of browsers and done simple testing of screen readers to best of her ability
  43. [05:13:33] <benward> And tested a variation where rather than a totally empty span, you have a span containing a single whitespace character (for the WYSIWYG issues, and HTMLTidy)
  44. [05:14:44] <tantek> wow
  45. [05:14:52] <benward> All passed with the desired result (no tooltip, no read-aloud)
  46. [05:15:06] <benward> Needs verification, of course, and there are screenreaders untested
  47. [05:15:39] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-value-title-test "another see the brainstorming link" (+155) http://is.gd/gV71
  48. [05:15:54] <benward> But sounds like we have a bit more flexibility wrt whitespace than we first thought, thanks to whitespace collapsing in browser rendering. I'm feeling pretty positive
  49. [05:16:09] <benward> Bruce Lawson has been good promoting the test on Twitter too. I'm really pleased with the response
  50. [05:16:16] <tantek> that's really good to hear
  51. [05:16:46] <benward> Yes
  52. [05:16:57] <benward> Anyway, heading out :) Speak later.
  53. [05:17:02] <tantek> just saved
  54. [05:17:04] <mfbot> Tantek created value-excerption-dt-separation-test "drafted based on [[value-excerption-value-title-test]]" http://is.gd/gV7B
  55. [05:17:12] * benward (n=benward@c-98-210-153-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Shutdown")
  56. [05:19:41] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-dt-separation-test first draft is ready for folks to take a look at.
  57. [05:21:46] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "added * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]]" (+42) http://is.gd/gV99
  58. [05:22:50] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-issues "added * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]] " (+42) http://is.gd/gV9v
  59. [05:28:15] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-value-title-test "add link to * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]]" (+41) http://is.gd/gVbi
  60. [05:28:37] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-excerption-dt-separation-test "add link to * [[value-excerption-value-title-test]]" (+40) http://is.gd/gVbn
  61. [06:00:25] * tantek (n=tantek@76-191-151-56.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net) Quit ()
  62. [06:32:07] * hustin (n=hustin@cpe-69-207-253-108.maine.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  63. [07:04:54] * BobJonkman1 (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit ("Leaving.")
  64. [07:46:45] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  65. [07:46:45] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  66. [08:08:44] * pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  67. [08:25:49] * openstandards (n=openstan@host81-154-56-231.range81-154.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  68. [08:26:15] * openstandards (n=openstan@92.8.115.124) has joined #microformats
  69. [08:29:45] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  70. [08:31:11] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  71. [08:56:49] * mrmet (n=guny@ool-18bf6018.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  72. [08:56:49] * jkridner (n=jason@c-76-31-18-64.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  73. [08:56:49] * bear (n=bear@c-71-230-97-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  74. [08:56:49] * knmurphy (n=knmurphy@newyork.elliotmurphy.com) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  75. [08:56:49] * termie (i=andy@208.78.244.32) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  76. [08:56:49] * yvesr (n=moustaki@87-194-36-82.bethere.co.uk) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  77. [08:56:49] * theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  78. [08:56:49] * Zeeshan_M (i=develope@o.je) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  79. [08:56:49] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@DHCP-150-138.resnet.ua.edu) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  80. [08:56:49] * iwaim (n=iwaim@gateway.alib.jp) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  81. [08:56:49] * Danny_B (n=Danny_B@wikimedia/Danny-B.) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  82. [08:56:49] * mefisto (n=mef`@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  83. [08:56:49] * manveru (n=manveru@p4158-ipbf1507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  84. [08:56:49] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  85. [08:56:49] * Broady (n=broady@unaffiliated/broady) Quit (kubrick.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
  86. [08:58:19] * Danny_B (n=Danny_B@wikimedia/Danny-B.) has joined #microformats
  87. [08:58:19] * mrmet (n=guny@ool-18bf6018.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #microformats
  88. [08:58:19] * mefisto (n=mef`@zelli-kojas.lanet.lv) has joined #microformats
  89. [08:58:19] * bear (n=bear@c-71-230-97-250.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  90. [08:58:19] * knmurphy (n=knmurphy@newyork.elliotmurphy.com) has joined #microformats
  91. [08:58:19] * Broady (n=broady@unaffiliated/broady) has joined #microformats
  92. [08:58:19] * yvesr (n=moustaki@87-194-36-82.bethere.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  93. [08:58:19] * Jonbo (n=Jonbo123@DHCP-150-138.resnet.ua.edu) has joined #microformats
  94. [08:58:19] * jkridner (n=jason@c-76-31-18-64.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  95. [08:58:19] * theanxy (n=wzajac@student.agh.edu.pl) has joined #microformats
  96. [08:58:19] * termie (i=andy@208.78.244.32) has joined #microformats
  97. [08:58:19] * iwaim (n=iwaim@gateway.alib.jp) has joined #microformats
  98. [08:58:19] * manveru (n=manveru@p4158-ipbf1507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  99. [08:58:19] * CaptSolo (i=captsolo@kaste.lv) has joined #microformats
  100. [08:58:19] * Zeeshan_M (i=develope@o.je) has joined #microformats
  101. [08:59:45] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@62.3.234.68) has joined #microformats
  102. [08:59:52] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  103. [09:02:31] * shigeta (n=shigeta@124.32.114.226) Quit ("Leaving...")
  104. [09:16:33] * tobyink (n=tai@ophelia.g5n.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  105. [09:17:59] * benward (n=benward@c-98-210-153-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  106. [09:17:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o benward
  107. [09:40:25] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  108. [09:40:25] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  109. [09:47:42] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-197-142.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) has joined #microformats
  110. [09:57:54] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  111. [10:02:19] * mfbot (n=mfbot@69.55.232.130) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  112. [10:19:59] * benward (n=benward@c-98-210-153-246.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Shutdown")
  113. [10:32:37] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-197-142.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit ()
  114. [10:56:15] * myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #microformats
  115. [11:25:23] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-197-142.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) has joined #microformats
  116. [11:44:40] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-86-25-197-142.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit ()
  117. [11:49:18] * Prometheus (n=promethe@unaffiliated/prometheus) has joined #microformats
  118. [13:15:34] * emrojo (n=emrojo@163.117.139.88) has joined #microformats
  119. [13:24:58] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  120. [13:24:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  121. [13:29:07] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@62.3.234.68) Quit ()
  122. [14:16:29] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  123. [14:16:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  124. [14:42:43] * pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) Quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  125. [14:46:59] * hustin (n=hustin@cpe-69-207-253-108.maine.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  126. [15:00:42] * levitation_ (n=levitati@digi.physic.ut.ee) has joined #microformats
  127. [15:08:27] * levitation[A] (n=levitati@digi.physic.ut.ee) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  128. [16:02:58] * myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  129. [16:13:03] * NetersLandreau_ (n=NetersLa@b2.e6.354a.static.theplanet.com) has joined #microformats
  130. [16:15:54] * NetersLandreau (n=NetersLa@b2.e6.354a.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  131. [16:15:54] * NetersLandreau_ (n=NetersLa@b2.e6.354a.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  132. [16:16:10] * NetersLandreau (n=NetersLa@b2.e6.354a.static.theplanet.com) has joined #microformats
  133. [17:18:11] * emrojo (n=emrojo@163.117.139.88) Quit ("Leaving.")
  134. [17:28:00] * tobyink (n=tai@ophelia.g5n.co.uk) Quit ("Ex-Chat")
  135. [17:57:02] * Hey_neken (n=kaxero@215.Red-213-96-129.staticIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #microformats
  136. [18:10:24] * SignpostMarv (n=Martin@78.33.151.156) has joined #microformats
  137. [18:10:57] * SignpostMarv got his Gears + XOXO powered search tool working :-3
  138. [18:13:19] * ajturner (n=ajturner@209.155.228.129) has joined #microformats
  139. [18:29:30] * benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-d1de93c5a1fcabd6) has joined #microformats
  140. [18:35:34] <SignpostMarv> hi ben
  141. [18:35:41] <benward> hi
  142. [18:36:16] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@eoms2.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  143. [18:41:22] <SignpostMarv> don't suppose you managed to get around to checking the source code of my problematic hCalendar document ?
  144. [18:46:21] <tantek> hmm, mfbot seems to have left us
  145. [18:48:32] <SignpostMarv> btw, is using an external XOXO feed to populate a gears db a good or bad thing to do with microformats geekery ?
  146. [18:56:00] * BobJonkman (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  147. [19:44:12] * DanC (n=connolly@69.76.220.64) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  148. [19:44:31] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  149. [19:44:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
  150. [19:50:14] * Phae (n=user@82-35-172-17.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  151. [19:50:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  152. [19:54:31] * SignpostMarv (n=Martin@78.33.151.156) Quit ("Leaving")
  153. [19:55:07] * cacimar (n=drapetom@74.213.6.75) has joined #microformats
  154. [20:02:48] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  155. [20:36:18] * benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-d1de93c5a1fcabd6) Quit ("Leaving...")
  156. [20:59:43] * cacimar (n=drapetom@74.213.6.75) Quit ()
  157. [21:04:33] * MrTopf (n=cs@pD9EBDE09.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  158. [21:15:34] * ajturner (n=ajturner@209.155.228.129) Quit ()
  159. [21:29:15] * Prometheus (n=promethe@unaffiliated/prometheus) Quit ("Blimey!")
  160. [21:37:08] * benward (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-6ec6379cdf571678) has joined #microformats
  161. [21:43:25] * Phae (n=user@82-35-172-17.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit ("Leaving.")
  162. [21:48:39] * jaymyers (n=browser@c-75-72-28-216.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  163. [21:50:38] * kavi (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-3643a6779da8cb24) has joined #microformats
  164. [21:51:08] * DanC (n=connolly@cpe-69-76-220-64.kc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  165. [21:53:34] <jaymyers> hello
  166. [21:58:51] <kavi> hi jay, thanks for joining
  167. [21:59:06] <jaymyers> np, interested in what's happening here
  168. [21:59:29] <kavi> we haven't started yet, but let's do so
  169. [21:59:54] <jaymyers> sounds good
  170. [21:59:59] <kavi> I've been interested in nailing down a method of marking up aggregate review information
  171. [22:00:14] <kavi> Currently, hReview is focused on the single-review case
  172. [22:00:37] <kavi> Although there is a lot of overlap between a single review (one user's review of a product/service) and an aggregation, they aren't exactly the same
  173. [22:00:54] <kavi> the most important aggregate info that isn't collected somehow is the number of reviews that contributed to the average
  174. [22:01:15] <kavi> Here is a link to a brainstorming page listing a few options: http://microformats.org/wiki/aggregate-review-brainstorming
  175. [22:01:42] <kavi> I think there are a couple reasonable strategies I've heard so far
  176. [22:01:46] <jaymyers> ok
  177. [22:02:17] <kavi> 1) Extend hReview -- the simplest option would be to add one more element to hReview, something like "reviewcount"
  178. [22:02:34] <kavi> and the presence of a reviewcount > 0 implies that this hReview is an aggregation
  179. [22:02:55] <kavi> Tantek and I were chatting separately yesterday, and he suggested another reasonable alternative
  180. [22:03:00] <jaymyers> how would the overall review from aggregation be marked up?
  181. [22:03:35] <kavi> 2) create a new microformat -- this doesn't require modifications to hReview, but the new format could include an embedded hReview and contain only the newly needed elements
  182. [22:04:12] <kavi> namely review count, and maybe some other interesting info like the number of ratings for each possible rating score (Amazon shows this on their pages)
  183. [22:04:31] <kavi> or common themes amongst reviews (Yelp does this when highlighting foods that many reviewers mention)
  184. [22:04:44] <kavi> Thoughts?
  185. [22:05:14] <jaymyers> im trying to wrap my head around product reviews...
  186. [22:05:24] <jaymyers> each reviewer gives a rating
  187. [22:05:43] <jaymyers> and then the product itself is given a rating based on the aggregate
  188. [22:05:45] <kavi> I agree -- product reviews are a very common case
  189. [22:05:58] <jaymyers> wondering how this might look in these two scenarios
  190. [22:06:17] <kavi> seems like there would potentially be an embedded hProduct in an aggregate review, or embedded aggregate review inside hProduct
  191. [22:06:27] <jaymyers> right
  192. [22:06:41] <jaymyers> so each review gets a class="rating"
  193. [22:07:01] <jaymyers> does the product get a class="rating-aggregate"
  194. [22:07:08] <jaymyers> or something along those lines?
  195. [22:07:48] <kavi> Is that how microformats are typically nested?
  196. [22:07:58] <jaymyers> depends on the design :-)
  197. [22:08:29] <jaymyers> usually the overall rating is listed separate from the aggregate reviews
  198. [22:09:30] <jaymyers> i intentionally left "rating" out of the hproduct spec, as i didnt want it to interfere with hreview
  199. [22:09:37] <jaymyers> but most products have ratings
  200. [22:09:40] <kavi> hmm, I think of "overall rating" and "aggregate review" as being nearly synonymous
  201. [22:09:54] <kavi> at least in the case where a rating is based on an aggregation of reviews
  202. [22:10:09] <jaymyers> ok
  203. [22:11:07] <jaymyers> so does this warrant a new uF?
  204. [22:11:22] <kavi> what is a uF?
  205. [22:11:31] <jaymyers> microformat
  206. [22:11:33] <jaymyers> sorry
  207. [22:11:35] <kavi> ah ok
  208. [22:11:36] <jaymyers> ;-)
  209. [22:12:00] <benward> Since a microformat should be as simple as possible, don't be concerned about small scale being a blocker.
  210. [22:12:12] <benward> (geo is just a few properties, for example)
  211. [22:12:17] <kavi> haha. I don't have a strong opinion between creating a new microformat vs extending hReview
  212. [22:12:43] <kavi> Seems like extending hReview is simpler for webmasters -- don't need to nest as deep
  213. [22:13:06] <kavi> otherwise there will often be 3 nested mf's -- hproduct > aggregatereview > hreview
  214. [22:13:07] <jaymyers> what are the reasonable alternatives tantek suggested?
  215. [22:13:26] <jaymyers> you make a good point there
  216. [22:13:37] <kavi> Tantek's suggest had been that we create a new MF, let's call it hAggregateReview
  217. [22:13:49] <kavi> It contains a few items in it and then a single hReview in it
  218. [22:14:05] <kavi> items that are already included in hReview don't need to be duplicated in hAggregateReview
  219. [22:14:12] <jaymyers> i see
  220. [22:14:29] <jaymyers> i was kind of leaning the way of a new microformat myself
  221. [22:14:31] <kavi> The advantage I see to this approach is that it allows a little more flexibility
  222. [22:14:33] <jaymyers> yes
  223. [22:15:23] <kavi> Do you think that implementation for webmasters would be reasonable? I'm not sure if it would get confusing if you only want to mark up a few things, to use a 3-level nested structure
  224. [22:15:36] <jaymyers> i think it would make more sense
  225. [22:16:04] <jaymyers> it seems like more of a 1 to 1 from visual to code
  226. [22:16:16] <jaymyers> if that makes sense
  227. [22:16:29] <kavi> didn't follow that -- can you explain "1 to 1 from visual to code"?
  228. [22:16:32] * BobJonkman1 (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  229. [22:16:55] <benward> Well, what information gets published in the examples of aggregate reviews? I think of ones where you see the avergae rating and review count as a header item, and then a selection of contribute reviews quoted within; that structure is very much nested.
  230. [22:18:05] <jaymyers> this might sound odd, but visually most sites seem to "embed" their reviews
  231. [22:18:21] * tantek catches up on the chat
  232. [22:19:16] <jaymyers> i don't think it would be too much of a stretch for people to embed aggregate reviews
  233. [22:20:33] <kavi> ok, let's assume for now that we want to create a new mf. Next question is, what types of data should it support
  234. [22:21:18] <kavi> Here is an example page: http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Dawn-Twilight-Saga-Book/dp/031606792X/ref=pd_ts_zbw_b_book_1?pf_rd_p=293833901&pf_rd_s=right-3&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=283155&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0031WKV8A468Z32KAZ53
  235. [22:21:18] <jaymyers> floating point number for rating?
  236. [22:21:45] * BobJonkman2 (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) has joined #microformats
  237. [22:22:29] <jaymyers> total ratings
  238. [22:22:37] <tantek> rating itself is already contained in hReview
  239. [22:22:44] <tantek> so no need for that
  240. [22:22:49] <jaymyers> aha
  241. [22:22:49] <tantek> perhaps total number of ratings yes
  242. [22:22:53] <kavi> some ideas: review count, reviewer group (i.e. "users" or "critics"), common themes (these would probably just be text strings)
  243. [22:23:20] <tantek> do sufficient aggregate-review-examples justify "reviewer group"?
  244. [22:23:33] <tantek> to be clear, that's how to come up with what the schema should have
  245. [22:23:49] <tantek> I wonder if all we need for now is *just* review count
  246. [22:23:52] <kavi> Good question. Rotten Tomatoes and GameSpot are two examples of sites that contain multiple sets of aggregate reviews
  247. [22:24:14] <kavi> For sure, review count is the most important element
  248. [22:24:30] <kavi> And we could get away with including only review count and still have a useful mf
  249. [22:25:03] <tantek> right
  250. [22:25:18] <jaymyers> is there a need for "aggregate-rating" ?
  251. [22:25:41] <jaymyers> or would that also be included in hreview
  252. [22:26:06] <kavi> http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3/index.html
  253. [22:26:20] <tantek> everything in the nested hReview represents aggregate data
  254. [22:26:32] <kavi> The link above shows a gamespot page where there are 3 ratings. Editor's rating, aggregate critic score, and aggregate user score
  255. [22:26:34] <tantek> so no need for "aggregate-*" variants/duplicates
  256. [22:26:51] <tantek> so that page would have two aggregates then
  257. [22:26:59] <kavi> right
  258. [22:27:07] <tantek> kavi - cool. is that from aggregate-review-examples?
  259. [22:27:08] <jaymyers> ok -- thanks for the clarification
  260. [22:27:16] <tantek> just want to make sure we capture it
  261. [22:27:27] <kavi> I'll add it
  262. [22:28:09] <kavi> I think the most typical case is that there is only one set of aggregate reviews, but exceptions to this aren't hard to find
  263. [22:28:42] <jaymyers> sorry for the early exit folks, i have to take off. this was really helpful to provide clarity
  264. [22:28:51] <kavi> Thanks again for joining us Jay
  265. [22:29:12] <jaymyers> let me know if you need any help on this
  266. [22:29:26] <jaymyers> ill be happy to contribute
  267. [22:29:43] <kavi> So for next steps, I can update the brainstorming page with this idea -- creating a new mf that contains one (and perhaps only one) element, which is the ratingcount
  268. [22:29:48] * jaymyers (n=browser@c-75-72-28-216.hsd1.mn.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  269. [22:30:12] <kavi> And contains a single nested hreview in it
  270. [22:30:32] <tantek> kavi, but "exception aren't hard to find" is insufficient
  271. [22:30:42] <tantek> because completeness is not a goal for microformats
  272. [22:30:46] <tantek> on the contrary, it is a non-goal
  273. [22:30:57] <tantek> 80% representation of implied schema in the wild is the goal
  274. [22:31:04] <kavi> Right
  275. [22:31:21] <tantek> so if <20% of aggregate reviews have "critics" vs "users", then we leave it out
  276. [22:31:33] <kavi> Seems like we get 80%+ from reviewcount by itself
  277. [22:31:46] <tantek> good chance of it yeah
  278. [22:31:51] <kavi> and it's easy enough to extend this design if we decide differently later
  279. [22:32:11] <tantek> what remains is analysis of the examples to see if there are any other "in common" aggregate review fields that broach the 80% threshold
  280. [22:32:16] <tantek> precisely
  281. [22:32:25] <tantek> much easier to add to a format than remove
  282. [22:32:34] * BobJonkman (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  283. [22:32:36] <tantek> hence the design principle of starting with as small as possible
  284. [22:32:49] <tantek> even smaller, perhaps leaving a few things out, until there is sufficient market demand etc.
  285. [22:33:34] <kavi> Ok, slightly jumping topics. Is there a convention (or should there be one) for hProducts being nested inside reviews or vice versa?
  286. [22:33:47] <kavi> Or is it fine for sites to nest in either direction based on the set up of their pages?
  287. [22:33:58] <tantek> yes there is the precedent of hReviews of item hCards and item hCalendars
  288. [22:34:20] <tantek> so presumably hProduct is just another nested item
  289. [22:34:27] <kavi> so, h-aggregate-review would be inside hproduct
  290. [22:34:51] * hustin (n=hustin@cpe-69-207-253-108.maine.res.rr.com) Quit ()
  291. [22:35:47] <benward> kavi, surely the product is the .item of the review, though?
  292. [22:36:47] <kavi> ah I see
  293. [22:36:59] <kavi> Yes, that makes sense. So I got it reversed
  294. [22:37:20] <tantek> what benward said
  295. [22:37:29] <tantek> ok I need to pop-off for a bit and switch connects
  296. [22:37:38] <kavi> Thanks Tantek
  297. [22:38:06] <kavi> Ok, I think this was productive. I'll write up the ideas from this discussion on the brainstorming page.
  298. [22:38:21] * BobJonkman1 (n=BobJonkm@206-248-137-186.dsl.teksavvy.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  299. [22:38:26] <kavi> Feel free to edit/comment/rewrite if I miss anything
  300. [22:38:29] <tantek> thanks kavi
  301. [22:38:40] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  302. [22:54:22] * redmonk (n=redmonk@ip68-104-180-227.ph.ph.cox.net) Quit ()
  303. [22:59:27] * Phae (n=user@82-35-172-17.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  304. [22:59:27] * ChanServ sets mode +o Phae
  305. [23:19:56] * tantek (n=tantek@32.156.84.197) has joined #microformats
  306. [23:19:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  307. [23:31:35] * Phae (n=user@82-35-172-17.cable.ubr01.mort.blueyonder.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  308. [23:32:49] * kavi_ (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-9561a1c9bbf714d5) has joined #microformats
  309. [23:37:05] * kavi (n=chatzill@nat/google/x-3643a6779da8cb24) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  310. [23:37:16] * kavi_ is now known as kavi
  311. [23:38:15] * Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  312. [23:39:14] * tantek_ (n=tantek@32.153.1.156) has joined #microformats
  313. [23:46:26] * tantek__ (n=tantek@32.159.134.156) has joined #microformats
  314. [23:48:28] * MrTopf (n=cs@pD9EBDE09.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ("deconstructing...")
  315. [23:53:22] * Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) has joined #microformats
  316. [23:54:05] * tantek (n=tantek@32.156.84.197) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.