IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-01-23
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [02:57:59] <mfbot>
Tantek edited social-network-anti-patterns "add freshly launched Plinky - Find Your Friends - password anti-pattern. sigh." (+490) http://is.gd/gUpz
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- [03:06:00] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-issues "added more related pages cross-links" (+85) http://is.gd/gUsl
- [03:41:07] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "add related link to value-excerption-value-title-test, noted value-title as more restrictive iteration of "parsing title from empty value elements", adv over empty value elements, call for testing" (+1353) http://is.gd/gUD4
- [03:55:53] * tantek is working on writing up date and time separation test analogous to the value excerption value title tests
- [03:56:10] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "add date time separation test section with link to value-excerption-dt-separation-test" (+288) http://is.gd/gUHm
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- [05:10:23] <tantek>
greetings benward
- [05:10:30] <benward>
Hi tantek
- [05:10:41] <tantek>
I've linked up a bunch of the value-excerption pages a bit to enable better navigation among them
- [05:10:57] <tantek>
... and currently working on the date and time separation tests
- [05:12:19] <benward>
Awesome
- [05:12:32] <benward>
Emily Lewis has been an absolute star
- [05:12:39] <benward>
She's not updated the wiki yet
- [05:13:00] <benward>
But she's tested a whole load of browsers and done simple testing of screen readers to best of her ability
- [05:13:33] <benward>
And tested a variation where rather than a totally empty span, you have a span containing a single whitespace character (for the WYSIWYG issues, and HTMLTidy)
- [05:14:44] <tantek>
wow
- [05:14:52] <benward>
All passed with the desired result (no tooltip, no read-aloud)
- [05:15:06] <benward>
Needs verification, of course, and there are screenreaders untested
- [05:15:39] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-value-title-test "another see the brainstorming link" (+155) http://is.gd/gV71
- [05:15:54] <benward>
But sounds like we have a bit more flexibility wrt whitespace than we first thought, thanks to whitespace collapsing in browser rendering. I'm feeling pretty positive
- [05:16:09] <benward>
Bruce Lawson has been good promoting the test on Twitter too. I'm really pleased with the response
- [05:16:16] <tantek>
that's really good to hear
- [05:16:46] <benward>
Yes
- [05:16:57] <benward>
Anyway, heading out :) Speak later.
- [05:17:02] <tantek>
just saved
- [05:17:04] <mfbot>
Tantek created value-excerption-dt-separation-test "drafted based on [[value-excerption-value-title-test]]" http://is.gd/gV7B
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- [05:19:41] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/value-excerption-dt-separation-test first draft is ready for folks to take a look at.
- [05:21:46] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-brainstorming "added * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]]" (+42) http://is.gd/gV99
- [05:22:50] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-pattern-issues "added * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]] " (+42) http://is.gd/gV9v
- [05:28:15] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-value-title-test "add link to * [[value-excerption-dt-separation-test]]" (+41) http://is.gd/gVbi
- [05:28:37] <mfbot>
Tantek edited value-excerption-dt-separation-test "add link to * [[value-excerption-value-title-test]]" (+40) http://is.gd/gVbn
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- [18:10:57] * SignpostMarv got his Gears + XOXO powered search tool working :-3
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- [18:35:34] <SignpostMarv>
hi ben
- [18:35:41] <benward>
hi
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- [18:41:22] <SignpostMarv>
don't suppose you managed to get around to checking the source code of my problematic hCalendar document ?
- [18:46:21] <tantek>
hmm, mfbot seems to have left us
- [18:48:32] <SignpostMarv>
btw, is using an external XOXO feed to populate a gears db a good or bad thing to do with microformats geekery ?
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- [21:53:34] <jaymyers>
hello
- [21:58:51] <kavi>
hi jay, thanks for joining
- [21:59:06] <jaymyers>
np, interested in what's happening here
- [21:59:29] <kavi>
we haven't started yet, but let's do so
- [21:59:54] <jaymyers>
sounds good
- [21:59:59] <kavi>
I've been interested in nailing down a method of marking up aggregate review information
- [22:00:14] <kavi>
Currently, hReview is focused on the single-review case
- [22:00:37] <kavi>
Although there is a lot of overlap between a single review (one user's review of a product/service) and an aggregation, they aren't exactly the same
- [22:00:54] <kavi>
the most important aggregate info that isn't collected somehow is the number of reviews that contributed to the average
- [22:01:15] <kavi>
Here is a link to a brainstorming page listing a few options: http://microformats.org/wiki/aggregate-review-brainstorming
- [22:01:42] <kavi>
I think there are a couple reasonable strategies I've heard so far
- [22:01:46] <jaymyers>
ok
- [22:02:17] <kavi>
1) Extend hReview -- the simplest option would be to add one more element to hReview, something like "reviewcount"
- [22:02:34] <kavi>
and the presence of a reviewcount > 0 implies that this hReview is an aggregation
- [22:02:55] <kavi>
Tantek and I were chatting separately yesterday, and he suggested another reasonable alternative
- [22:03:00] <jaymyers>
how would the overall review from aggregation be marked up?
- [22:03:35] <kavi>
2) create a new microformat -- this doesn't require modifications to hReview, but the new format could include an embedded hReview and contain only the newly needed elements
- [22:04:12] <kavi>
namely review count, and maybe some other interesting info like the number of ratings for each possible rating score (Amazon shows this on their pages)
- [22:04:31] <kavi>
or common themes amongst reviews (Yelp does this when highlighting foods that many reviewers mention)
- [22:04:44] <kavi>
Thoughts?
- [22:05:14] <jaymyers>
im trying to wrap my head around product reviews...
- [22:05:24] <jaymyers>
each reviewer gives a rating
- [22:05:43] <jaymyers>
and then the product itself is given a rating based on the aggregate
- [22:05:45] <kavi>
I agree -- product reviews are a very common case
- [22:05:58] <jaymyers>
wondering how this might look in these two scenarios
- [22:06:17] <kavi>
seems like there would potentially be an embedded hProduct in an aggregate review, or embedded aggregate review inside hProduct
- [22:06:27] <jaymyers>
right
- [22:06:41] <jaymyers>
so each review gets a class="rating"
- [22:07:01] <jaymyers>
does the product get a class="rating-aggregate"
- [22:07:08] <jaymyers>
or something along those lines?
- [22:07:48] <kavi>
Is that how microformats are typically nested?
- [22:07:58] <jaymyers>
depends on the design :-)
- [22:08:29] <jaymyers>
usually the overall rating is listed separate from the aggregate reviews
- [22:09:30] <jaymyers>
i intentionally left "rating" out of the hproduct spec, as i didnt want it to interfere with hreview
- [22:09:37] <jaymyers>
but most products have ratings
- [22:09:40] <kavi>
hmm, I think of "overall rating" and "aggregate review" as being nearly synonymous
- [22:09:54] <kavi>
at least in the case where a rating is based on an aggregation of reviews
- [22:10:09] <jaymyers>
ok
- [22:11:07] <jaymyers>
so does this warrant a new uF?
- [22:11:22] <kavi>
what is a uF?
- [22:11:31] <jaymyers>
microformat
- [22:11:33] <jaymyers>
sorry
- [22:11:35] <kavi>
ah ok
- [22:11:36] <jaymyers>
;-)
- [22:12:00] <benward>
Since a microformat should be as simple as possible, don't be concerned about small scale being a blocker.
- [22:12:12] <benward>
(geo is just a few properties, for example)
- [22:12:17] <kavi>
haha. I don't have a strong opinion between creating a new microformat vs extending hReview
- [22:12:43] <kavi>
Seems like extending hReview is simpler for webmasters -- don't need to nest as deep
- [22:13:06] <kavi>
otherwise there will often be 3 nested mf's -- hproduct > aggregatereview > hreview
- [22:13:07] <jaymyers>
what are the reasonable alternatives tantek suggested?
- [22:13:26] <jaymyers>
you make a good point there
- [22:13:37] <kavi>
Tantek's suggest had been that we create a new MF, let's call it hAggregateReview
- [22:13:49] <kavi>
It contains a few items in it and then a single hReview in it
- [22:14:05] <kavi>
items that are already included in hReview don't need to be duplicated in hAggregateReview
- [22:14:12] <jaymyers>
i see
- [22:14:29] <jaymyers>
i was kind of leaning the way of a new microformat myself
- [22:14:31] <kavi>
The advantage I see to this approach is that it allows a little more flexibility
- [22:14:33] <jaymyers>
yes
- [22:15:23] <kavi>
Do you think that implementation for webmasters would be reasonable? I'm not sure if it would get confusing if you only want to mark up a few things, to use a 3-level nested structure
- [22:15:36] <jaymyers>
i think it would make more sense
- [22:16:04] <jaymyers>
it seems like more of a 1 to 1 from visual to code
- [22:16:16] <jaymyers>
if that makes sense
- [22:16:29] <kavi>
didn't follow that -- can you explain "1 to 1 from visual to code"?
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- [22:16:55] <benward>
Well, what information gets published in the examples of aggregate reviews? I think of ones where you see the avergae rating and review count as a header item, and then a selection of contribute reviews quoted within; that structure is very much nested.
- [22:18:05] <jaymyers>
this might sound odd, but visually most sites seem to "embed" their reviews
- [22:18:21] * tantek catches up on the chat
- [22:19:16] <jaymyers>
i don't think it would be too much of a stretch for people to embed aggregate reviews
- [22:20:33] <kavi>
ok, let's assume for now that we want to create a new mf. Next question is, what types of data should it support
- [22:21:18] <kavi>
Here is an example page: http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Dawn-Twilight-Saga-Book/dp/031606792X/ref=pd_ts_zbw_b_book_1?pf_rd_p=293833901&pf_rd_s=right-3&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_i=283155&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0031WKV8A468Z32KAZ53
- [22:21:18] <jaymyers>
floating point number for rating?
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- [22:22:29] <jaymyers>
total ratings
- [22:22:37] <tantek>
rating itself is already contained in hReview
- [22:22:44] <tantek>
so no need for that
- [22:22:49] <jaymyers>
aha
- [22:22:49] <tantek>
perhaps total number of ratings yes
- [22:22:53] <kavi>
some ideas: review count, reviewer group (i.e. "users" or "critics"), common themes (these would probably just be text strings)
- [22:23:20] <tantek>
do sufficient aggregate-review-examples justify "reviewer group"?
- [22:23:33] <tantek>
to be clear, that's how to come up with what the schema should have
- [22:23:49] <tantek>
I wonder if all we need for now is *just* review count
- [22:23:52] <kavi>
Good question. Rotten Tomatoes and GameSpot are two examples of sites that contain multiple sets of aggregate reviews
- [22:24:14] <kavi>
For sure, review count is the most important element
- [22:24:30] <kavi>
And we could get away with including only review count and still have a useful mf
- [22:25:03] <tantek>
right
- [22:25:18] <jaymyers>
is there a need for "aggregate-rating" ?
- [22:25:41] <jaymyers>
or would that also be included in hreview
- [22:26:06] <kavi>
http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3/index.html
- [22:26:20] <tantek>
everything in the nested hReview represents aggregate data
- [22:26:32] <kavi>
The link above shows a gamespot page where there are 3 ratings. Editor's rating, aggregate critic score, and aggregate user score
- [22:26:34] <tantek>
so no need for "aggregate-*" variants/duplicates
- [22:26:51] <tantek>
so that page would have two aggregates then
- [22:26:59] <kavi>
right
- [22:27:07] <tantek>
kavi - cool. is that from aggregate-review-examples?
- [22:27:08] <jaymyers>
ok -- thanks for the clarification
- [22:27:16] <tantek>
just want to make sure we capture it
- [22:27:27] <kavi>
I'll add it
- [22:28:09] <kavi>
I think the most typical case is that there is only one set of aggregate reviews, but exceptions to this aren't hard to find
- [22:28:42] <jaymyers>
sorry for the early exit folks, i have to take off. this was really helpful to provide clarity
- [22:28:51] <kavi>
Thanks again for joining us Jay
- [22:29:12] <jaymyers>
let me know if you need any help on this
- [22:29:26] <jaymyers>
ill be happy to contribute
- [22:29:43] <kavi>
So for next steps, I can update the brainstorming page with this idea -- creating a new mf that contains one (and perhaps only one) element, which is the ratingcount
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- [22:30:12] <kavi>
And contains a single nested hreview in it
- [22:30:32] <tantek>
kavi, but "exception aren't hard to find" is insufficient
- [22:30:42] <tantek>
because completeness is not a goal for microformats
- [22:30:46] <tantek>
on the contrary, it is a non-goal
- [22:30:57] <tantek>
80% representation of implied schema in the wild is the goal
- [22:31:04] <kavi>
Right
- [22:31:21] <tantek>
so if <20% of aggregate reviews have "critics" vs "users", then we leave it out
- [22:31:33] <kavi>
Seems like we get 80%+ from reviewcount by itself
- [22:31:46] <tantek>
good chance of it yeah
- [22:31:51] <kavi>
and it's easy enough to extend this design if we decide differently later
- [22:32:11] <tantek>
what remains is analysis of the examples to see if there are any other "in common" aggregate review fields that broach the 80% threshold
- [22:32:16] <tantek>
precisely
- [22:32:25] <tantek>
much easier to add to a format than remove
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- [22:32:36] <tantek>
hence the design principle of starting with as small as possible
- [22:32:49] <tantek>
even smaller, perhaps leaving a few things out, until there is sufficient market demand etc.
- [22:33:34] <kavi>
Ok, slightly jumping topics. Is there a convention (or should there be one) for hProducts being nested inside reviews or vice versa?
- [22:33:47] <kavi>
Or is it fine for sites to nest in either direction based on the set up of their pages?
- [22:33:58] <tantek>
yes there is the precedent of hReviews of item hCards and item hCalendars
- [22:34:20] <tantek>
so presumably hProduct is just another nested item
- [22:34:27] <kavi>
so, h-aggregate-review would be inside hproduct
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- [22:35:47] <benward>
kavi, surely the product is the .item of the review, though?
- [22:36:47] <kavi>
ah I see
- [22:36:59] <kavi>
Yes, that makes sense. So I got it reversed
- [22:37:20] <tantek>
what benward said
- [22:37:29] <tantek>
ok I need to pop-off for a bit and switch connects
- [22:37:38] <kavi>
Thanks Tantek
- [22:38:06] <kavi>
Ok, I think this was productive. I'll write up the ideas from this discussion on the brainstorming page.
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- [22:38:26] <kavi>
Feel free to edit/comment/rewrite if I miss anything
- [22:38:29] <tantek>
thanks kavi
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