IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-04-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  14. [02:16:03] <ramsey> hey... if I'm interested in proposing a new rel type for link/a, where would I post and how would I go about getting discussion started on it?
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  17. [02:21:37] <csarven> ramsey Here is good
  18. [02:23:06] <ramsey> csarven: cool... well, I have two rel proposals... I'll start with one that may be easy to discuss since I'm sure it's been discussed before and can be shot down quickly ;-)
  19. [02:24:39] <ramsey> I was putting some <link> tags on a blog the other day and came across a situation where I didn't know which rel to use, alternate seemed the most likely, but semantically, the feed I was linking to was not an alternate represenation of the current document, but rather, a related feed, so I chose to use "related," but it's not listed in the HTML 5 spec, nor was it on the whatwg wiki
  20. [02:24:54] <ramsey> is there a reason that "related" isn't included?
  21. [02:25:42] <csarven> related in what sense?
  22. [02:27:41] <csarven> "related" is mentioned here http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-values
  23. [02:28:28] <csarven> I think "related" is a bit vague
  24. [02:30:03] <csarven> Usually when you link to another document you are making that claim.
  25. [02:30:10] <ramsey> yeah, I know it's mentioned there, but it's also said that it's "now effectively obsolete"
  26. [02:30:37] <ramsey> okay, that's fair enough, but in my case, what kind of relationship would i use?
  27. [02:30:54] <ramsey> it's a related feed, but it doesn't represent the content of the current document
  28. [02:31:28] <csarven> Do you mean related as in "similar" or as a "reference"?
  29. [02:31:35] <ramsey> similar
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  32. [02:32:15] <ramsey> i.e. if you like the content here, you will probably want to read the content at this other place
  33. [02:35:31] <csarven> I'm trying to think how often we come across articles that says something like "this article is similar to this article"
  34. [02:37:18] <ramsey> well, here's what it is, really... I have a user group web site that has a feed, but I also want to present the feed for our forum as another feed that users can subscribe to
  35. [02:37:44] <ramsey> so, for example, when they choose to subscribe through Firefox, etc., it will show them the option of subscribing to the website (blog) feed or the forum feed
  36. [02:41:22] <ramsey> are there any "rules" in HTML 5 (like in AtomPub) that dictate that you cannot have more than one <link> with the same rel, type, and hreflang values?
  37. [02:43:19] <tantek> it's difficult to argue/discuss such a possibility in the abstract
  38. [02:43:30] <tantek> do you have a URL to a real world example of a page that links to such a "related" feed?
  39. [02:44:00] <tantek> bbiab
  40. [02:44:56] <ramsey> tantek: http://atlantaphp.org/
  41. [02:48:54] <tantek> ramsey, I've seen some use "alternate" even for secondary/subset/related feeds
  42. [02:48:58] <tantek> and simply put the "primary" feed first
  43. [02:49:16] <tantek> the challenge is, what do browsers/feedreaders do, and is that the user experience you want your users to have?
  44. [02:49:40] <ramsey> well, right now, a browser does nothing with it
  45. [02:49:50] <ramsey> I would need to specify "alternate" to get it to do something
  46. [02:50:00] <tantek> right
  47. [02:50:28] <tantek> in related thinking, the right column on http://atlantaphp.org/ could certainly use a little bit of hCalendar and hCard
  48. [02:50:59] <ramsey> but it has the same type as the previous one, and, according to HTML 5, alternate is transitive, so, by default, the Atom feed that really is an alternate form of the current doc is also an alternate form of the Atom feed for the "forum" ?
  49. [02:51:05] <ramsey> tantek: I'm working on it :-)
  50. [02:51:06] <tantek> and you could add hCard to http://atlantaphp.org/
  51. [02:51:17] <tantek> I mean http://atlantaphp.org/about :)
  52. [02:51:22] <ramsey> that site needs much mark-up love
  53. [02:52:23] <ramsey> we're working on a redesign of the site, which will include lots of microformat mark-up
  54. [02:52:56] <ramsey> I also want to use hAtom
  55. [02:56:46] <ramsey> anyway, so it looks like the recommendation is that "related" is not necessary and I should use "alternate" instead, even though the link really isn't to an alternate form of the current document, nor is it transitively an alternate form of the other alternate feed
  56. [02:56:52] <ramsey> ?
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  60. [02:59:33] <ramsey> tantek: I guess you timed out? :-)
  61. [02:59:54] <tantek> on a flakey net connection, might have to try again later :)
  62. [03:00:20] <ramsey> not a problem
  63. [03:00:24] <ramsey> my last question was:
  64. [03:00:28] <ramsey> anyway, so it looks like the recommendation is that "related" is not necessary and I should use "alternate" instead, even though the link really isn't to an alternate form of the current document, nor is it transitively an alternate form of the other alternate feed?
  65. [03:05:59] <tantek> or just leave the <link> out altogether
  66. [03:06:08] <tantek> if it doesn't serve any user-facing function, why bother putting it in?
  67. [03:06:38] <ramsey> I guess because it *could* serve as a function
  68. [03:06:44] * ramsey shrugs
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  74. [03:34:36] <ramsey> BTW, looks like someone's trying to revive the link rev attribute... http://laughingmeme.org/2009/04/03/url-shortening-hinting/ :-)
  75. [03:34:41] <ramsey> it's a pretty good use-case, too
  76. [03:34:58] <ramsey> but rev is damn confusing ;-)
  77. [03:45:01] <tantek> right, all evidence points to rev being too confusing in practice to be worth trying to use
  78. [04:06:44] <ramsey> I do like the recommendation of using rel="alternate shorter" though, so that the canonical URL can specify a short form to use
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  86. [04:45:02] <tantek> I agree with using rel="alternate" for shorter URLs
  87. [04:45:17] <tantek> but why "shorter"? shouldn't it be obvious from the length of the URL (vs the length of the URL of the document?)
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  104. [06:52:05] <mfbot> Famke created Fight Arena "New page: ==Description:== The prosperous Servil family have been abducted by the infamous General Khazard. He plans to have the family battle for his entertainment in the fight arena. Can you rescu..." http://is.gd/rJzt
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  141. [15:14:27] <mfbot> Kwilson edited buttons "Updated image URLs" (-5) http://is.gd/rMCp
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  185. [21:49:58] <mfbot> Kavi edited aggregate-microformat-template-examples "" (+38) http://is.gd/rPR0
  186. [21:51:55] <mfbot> Kavi edited aggregate-microformat-template-examples "/* Real-World Examples */ " (-203) http://is.gd/rPRG
  187. [21:52:07] <mfbot> Kavi edited aggregate-microformat-template-examples "/* Real-World Examples */ " (-1) http://is.gd/rPRL
  188. [21:55:17] <mfbot> Kavi edited aggregate-microformat-template-brainstorming "" (+43) http://is.gd/rPSP
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  197. [23:54:15] * BenWard (n=benward@nat/yahoo/x-f04f16353938bd03) Quit ("Fades out again…")

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