IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  16. [00:43:17] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "updating with incremental fixes/tweaks rather than all at once. value class pattern only applies to simple strings, tel, and datetimes currently. " (+366) http://is.gd/uZSw
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  23. [01:22:59] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "lack of timezone indicates a floating datetime" (+124) http://is.gd/v0en
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  40. [02:21:37] <mfbot> Alextiming edited hcard-faq "" (+434) http://is.gd/v0M7
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  54. [03:40:53] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-faq "reword a few new questions to be a bit more specific and more neutral/positive POV" (-75) http://is.gd/v1qe
  55. [03:44:00] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-faq "answer the question What is the point of hCard" (+948) http://is.gd/v1rK
  56. [03:53:17] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-faq "answer more than just links and help users" (+582) http://is.gd/v1vU
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  58. [03:54:29] * DanC hopes to catch up with Tantek about the portable contacts stuff I saw at IETF 74 http://brightkite.com/objects/e3150e00198711deb4fe003048c0801e
  59. [03:54:41] <DanC> but I should prolly call it a night soon
  60. [03:56:20] <tantek> Hi DanC - would certainly like to hear your opinion of portable contacts
  61. [03:56:45] <DanC> on the plus side, it seems grounded in experience with real user data
  62. [03:56:58] <DanC> on the minus side, it's XML that's not XHTML
  63. [03:58:06] <DanC> I'm in the middle of migrating my contacts to a G1 phone, and google's atom-based gdata api is pretty good as XML apis go, but it still sucks
  64. [03:58:19] <DanC> if it were using hCard, I could at least *print* the dang things.
  65. [03:58:50] <tantek> DanC, lots of web programmers don't get all the "free" stuff you get with XHTML over XML (POX or not)
  66. [03:59:40] <DanC> I spread the good news whenever I can, e.g. wdn09: http://www.w3.org/2009/Talks/02wdn/slides#(31)
  67. [03:59:47] <tantek> also, the gdata APIs are known for unnecessarily reinventing many things
  68. [04:00:30] <DanC> what makes you curious about portable contacts? where do you run into them?
  69. [04:01:41] <mfbot> Tantek edited hcard-faq "add another FAQ on how to style hCards with CSS related to articles found while researching to answer earlier added FAQs" (+390) http://is.gd/v1AO
  70. [04:02:13] <DanC> speaking of wdn09, when I went looking for CSS styles for hCard, I ran into John A.'s work
  71. [04:02:27] <tantek> DanC I'm curious about *your opinion* in particular about them
  72. [04:02:48] <DanC> well, I haven't studied the whole package. I just caught a few slides at IETF 74
  73. [04:03:34] <tantek> I've spoken with Joseph Smarr et al about them. He works for Plaxo and Plaxo also has very good hCard support etc.
  74. [04:05:05] <DanC> there's a whole constellation of stuff that I see from tweets from folks like Kevin Marks... I wish I could manage to make time to study it more closely.
  75. [04:06:58] <DanC> re "Is there a way to convert a vCard to an hCard?" I wrote some code to do that... I wonder how well it works...
  76. [04:07:54] <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/12/cal/vcardin.py
  77. [04:09:31] <DanC> looks fairly thorough
  78. [04:10:15] <tantek> DanC, that's great! Could you add it to http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations ?
  79. [04:10:40] <DanC> ok... running 1 or 2 tests 1st...
  80. [04:14:50] <DanC> can't get it to work hardly at all. darn.
  81. [04:25:12] <DanC> ok... got it working a little...
  82. [04:26:11] * DanC struggles to remember his username...
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  84. [04:26:58] <DanC> aha... found it... http://microformats.org/wiki/User:DanC
  85. [04:29:46] <mfbot> DanC edited hcard-implementations "vcardin.py converts .vcf to .html" (+173) http://is.gd/v1MU
  86. [04:47:16] <tantek> thanks DanC
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  149. [13:44:22] <to_> hi
  150. [13:44:43] <to_> is there a uf for title + short desc + thumbnail ?
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  174. [14:19:50] <tantek> to_ could you provide a URL to an example of the type of content you're trying to markup?
  175. [14:20:27] <to_> tantek: http://www.communitymx.com/content/source/97480/att.gif
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  178. [14:21:52] <tantek> I mean URL to the actual HTML, not just a screengrab
  179. [14:21:58] <tantek> it helps to have the context
  180. [14:23:29] <tantek> ah I see you have more examples/analysis here: http://www.communitymx.com/content/source/97480/
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  184. [14:27:09] <to_> tantek: yep
  185. [14:27:11] <tantek> to_ the one thing your example markup appears to be missing from the examples that are cited are the hyperlinks to "More >>" etc
  186. [14:27:33] <tantek> e.g. in the "List of features from AT&T"
  187. [14:27:54] <tantek> you could markup those hyperlinks with rel="section" as defined in http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.12
  188. [14:28:06] <tantek> the POSH approach you are taking seems quite reasonable
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  191. [14:29:42] <to_> tantek: http://www.communitymx.com/content/article.cfm?page=2&cid=97480
  192. [14:30:49] <to_> here are the markup
  193. [14:30:51] <to_> is
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  197. [14:35:30] <tantek> though I would have use an unordered list
  198. [14:35:44] <tantek> with a simple nested image and link
  199. [14:36:27] <tantek> to_ even on that page, it has a "Latest New Content" sidebar on the left with icons, and linked short description
  200. [14:36:32] <tantek> and if you view source...
  201. [14:37:05] <tantek> <li><img src="/images/photoshopicon.gif" alt="" /><a href="/abstract.cfm?cid=34D68">Retro Fitting a Color Match</a><div></div></li>
  202. [14:37:12] <tantek> inside a <ul>
  203. [14:37:28] <tantek> yes - the actual markup used in the page makes more sense IMHO than what the article prescribes
  204. [14:37:43] * singpolyma (n=singpoly@node-4543.tor.pppoe.execulink.com) Quit ("Lost terminal")
  205. [14:37:47] <tantek> only thing I would change is add rel="section" to the hyperlink
  206. [14:38:13] <tantek> and wrap the hyperlink around the whole of the icon and text description (so that clicking on the graphic actually does something - this is a bit of a usability 101 thing)
  207. [14:39:38] <tantek> and presto - no microformat needed in this case, because semantic compound XHTML (a link with rel="section" with nested icon and text) provides all the semantics you need for the structure.
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  214. [14:44:03] * tantek realizes there is no wiki page for posh patterns for semantic XHTML compounds that could be reused like that.
  215. [14:47:16] <mfbot> Tantek edited posh "added link and encouragement to re-use [[posh-patterns]]" (+326) http://is.gd/v7FC
  216. [14:50:46] * Politoed[FEUP] (n=Theorem@aulas-c.fe.up.pt) Quit (Connection timed out)
  217. [14:55:42] <mfbot> Tantek created posh-patterns "drafted" http://is.gd/v7Mo
  218. [14:57:39] <mfbot> Tantek edited poshformats "add hGrant, removed poshZone as it is not a poshformat itself but rather a resource for theoretical poshformats" (-13) http://is.gd/v7NI
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  221. [15:06:57] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  222. [15:09:04] <mfbot> Tantek edited posh "add external POSH brainstorming section with links to poshzone and poshformats" (+578) http://is.gd/v7X9
  223. [15:17:00] * krijnh (n=krijnhoe@ktk.xs4all.nl) has joined #microformats
  224. [15:20:41] <mfbot> Tantek created existing rel value "redir with spaces" http://is.gd/v86S
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  227. [15:21:13] <mfbot> Tantek edited posh-patterns "added Jeremy Keith's blogpost on posh patterns and navigation pattern from today's IRC discussion" (+1104) http://is.gd/v87q
  228. [15:22:29] <tantek> to_, I documented the semantic HTML example you gave here: http://microformats.org/wiki/posh-patterns#navigation - it doesn't appear that a microformat is needed
  229. [15:25:37] <to_> and with a <p> for description within li ?
  230. [15:27:36] <to_> tantek: <ul><li><a rel="section" href=""><img alt="" /><h2>Title</h2></a><p>desc</p></li>...</ul>
  231. [15:27:57] <tobyink> to_: <h2> is block so can't live inside <a>.
  232. [15:28:24] <to_> can't live inside which tag?
  233. [15:28:46] <to_> ohw, <a>
  234. [15:29:00] <to_> why can't it ?
  235. [15:33:00] <tobyink> Because <a> is inline. I think HTML5 might allow block elements to nest inside <a>, but in all current versions it's not allowed.
  236. [15:33:29] <tobyink> Pretty easy solution though: <ul><li><h2><a rel="section" href=""><img alt="" />Title</a></h2><p>desc</p></li>...</ul>
  237. [15:33:33] <singpolyma> It is occasionally a pain, but in general it's not what you want anyway, so it makes sense
  238. [15:34:59] <tantek> at some point you probably have enough structure to mark it up with hAtom
  239. [15:37:40] <singpolyma> Does it generally make sense to put rel=section on navigational links?
  240. [15:39:26] <tantek> if those links go to sections of the document or site
  241. [15:39:37] <tantek> there's also rel="chapter" if that semantic is more appropriate
  242. [15:39:48] <tantek> lots of good existing HTML4 rel-values
  243. [15:40:03] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
  244. [15:40:15] <tantek> http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/types.html#h-6.12
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  252. [16:10:24] <to_> is there exist a uf to mark key/value pairs, for example a house with attributes like: Sq Feet -> 100m2 / Beds -> 2 / ... ?
  253. [16:11:03] * Politoed (n=Theorem@aulas-c.fe.up.pt) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  254. [16:11:08] <tobyink> Square feet measured in square metres?
  255. [16:11:12] <singpolyma> to_: use <dl> if you have a list of such things, use XOXO
  256. [16:11:47] <tobyink> I'd say a two col table with <th>, <td> pairs is more semantically correct, but a <dl> is often how these things get done.
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  258. [16:13:59] <singpolyma> tobyink: why is a table more semantic than <dl>?
  259. [16:14:06] <to_> thank you
  260. [16:14:14] <tobyink> You are not defining "Sq Feet".
  261. [16:14:36] <to_> it appears i'm already using xoxo :D, didn't know was using it :p
  262. [16:15:04] <singpolyma> tobyink: you're defining this instance of "Sq Feet" or "Sq Feet" in the context of the thing you're describing
  263. [16:15:10] <singpolyma> but I guess a table is equally accurate
  264. [16:15:16] <to_> is marking class="xoxo" mandatory?
  265. [16:15:21] <to_> or recommanded
  266. [16:15:50] <singpolyma> to_: reccomended
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  268. [16:28:51] <to_> is xoxo suitable for displaying <label> + :input ?
  269. [16:29:31] <singpolyma> to_: why not just use <label> and <input>?
  270. [16:30:23] <to_> in order to style them
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  272. [16:34:12] <singpolyma> to_: I wouldn't use XOXO or <dl> for forms in general... that doesn't make a lot of sense to me
  273. [16:34:31] <to_> style them like this : http://idisk.me.com/abernier/Public/Pictures/Screenshots/Edit_Property_with_photos-20090428-183523.jpg
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  287. [18:37:58] <mfbot> Dingo created User:dingo "New page: http://er.library.northwestern.edu NORTHWESTERN DATABASES http://nucat.library.northwestern.edu/ NU CATALOG SEARCH http://www.votesmart.org/ VOTESMART http://www.census.gov/ CENSUS http:..." http://is.gd/vaQj
  288. [18:38:43] <mfbot> Dingo edited User:dingo "" (+60) http://is.gd/vaQQ
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  302. [20:18:48] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "more precision tweaks to value-title, noted a TODO for types of properties" (+668) http://is.gd/vc5r
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  306. [21:08:23] <DanC> anybody got suggestions for getting contact info *out* of gdata?
  307. [21:08:33] * DanC reviews his code...
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  309. [21:16:08] <tobyink> DanC - by "out of" do you mean "read it from" or "delete it from"?
  310. [21:16:38] <tobyink> (I don't have any suggestions either way - just curious.)
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  312. [21:17:50] <tantek> DanC, perhaps you could document the gData contact format you are trying to convert from on a new page, like http://microformats.org/wiki/contact-formats and we can start from there.
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  315. [21:47:01] <DanC> "read it from"
  316. [21:47:11] <DanC> and ok, I'll try using the uf wiki to document stuff
  317. [21:47:21] * DanC is in and out, in case that's not obvious
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