IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-05-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  29. [02:20:44] <csarven> Hate to see http://adblockplus.org/blog/an-approach-to-fair-ad-blocking use <meta name="adblock" content="disable" /> instead of say class="ad" which could be far more useful.
  30. [02:23:13] <tantek> csarven, people will keep trying to use meta tags and other invisible forms of metadata - there's nothing much to stop it from happening. the best we can do is come up with better alternatives (e.g. visible data) and hope that overtime, uses of invisible metadata are displaced by uses of visible data.
  31. [02:25:24] <csarven> I guess there is one small argument for the use of meta in this case and that is, it is cheaper to process than looking for all class="ad"s.
  32. [02:26:18] <tantek> cheaper processing is rarely (like almost never) a good (read: a deciding factor) in format design, especially anything text based
  33. [02:26:40] <csarven> On the other hand, the ad blocker scripts usually try to match a domainname with their block list.
  34. [02:34:28] <tantek> csarven - have you had a chance to take a look at the value-class-pattern? http://tr.im/valueclass
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  43. [03:22:01] <csarven> tantek I have earlier today actually. You, Ben and everyone else did a great job. I think it is a major notable step.
  44. [03:22:31] <csarven> Really glad to see tel type property get addressed as far as localisation goes.
  45. [03:27:19] <csarven> As far as using an empty element, I don't think anyone would claim that it is an ideal approach but it is reasonable given the problem, IMHO.
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  47. [03:28:58] <csarven> I'm not sure if I've missed it, but I suppose parsers /should/ be backwards compatible with existing abbr-design-pattern implementations, right?
  48. [03:33:41] <csarven> Ah, yes.
  49. [03:35:07] <csarven> "if the element is an abbr element, then use the element's title attribute value."
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  117. [05:22:28] <mfbot> MatthewLevine edited events "Added two May uF SF dinners" (+858) http://is.gd/z4hg
  118. [05:23:01] <mfbot> MatthewLevine created events/2009-05-12-weekly-dinner-sf "Created event" http://is.gd/z4hI
  119. [05:23:54] <mfbot> MatthewLevine created events/2009-05-19-weekly-dinner-sf "Created event" http://is.gd/z4i9
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  124. [05:55:00] <mfbot> Singpolyma edited events/2009-05-12-weekly-dinner-sf "Added my attendence plan" (+342) http://is.gd/z4Cy
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  127. [06:20:54] <benward> Just an FYI, all microformats.org hAtom templates have just been updated to use the value-class-pattern for dates, rather than regular value-excerption+CSS. You should be able to use the blog and wiki as test data for parsers of the new pattern.
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  134. [06:45:55] <tantek_> for tomorrow night's dinner - the Crepevine on Church just South of Market st. seems to fit the criteria of having plenty of room for folks, cafe-style (rather than waiter-service), and near multiple modes of transit.
  135. [06:45:59] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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  137. [06:53:51] <mfbot> Tantek edited events/2009-05-12-weekly-dinner-sf "add to attendees, location change to Crepevine in Churma" (+300) http://is.gd/z59Z
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  140. [07:50:26] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "add examples in wild and implementations sections, along with a few entries" (+1815) http://is.gd/z5OE
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  143. [08:01:01] <mfbot> Tantek edited Template:events-related-pages "add 2008" (+32) http://is.gd/z5Wh
  144. [08:07:02] <mfbot> Tantek edited events-2007 "cleaned up intro a bit, added a few nav links" (+66) http://is.gd/z60d
  145. [08:08:07] <mfbot> Tantek created events-2008 "move 2008 events from current/upcoming page to archive page" http://is.gd/z60T
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  147. [08:17:34] <mfbot> Tantek edited events "move 2008 events to [[events-2008]], update upcoming events to use date and time separation part of [[value-class-pattern]], add may 2009 section" (-20715) http://is.gd/z66f
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  150. [08:23:30] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "/* Examples in the wild */ added wiki recent/upcoming events page" (+187) http://is.gd/z6ak
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  152. [08:31:52] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-class-pattern "Corrected references to hAtom published property (actually 'updated'), swapped <em> for <code> mark-up." (+39) http://is.gd/z6gA
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  154. [08:41:27] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-class-pattern "/* limited use of value-title */ Note about new specs. added ABBR element" (+422) http://is.gd/z6oq
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  157. [08:45:50] <mfbot> Tantek edited value-class-pattern "faq and related pages are informative (not normative), faq inline until it grows to need its own page" (+222) http://is.gd/z6sa
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  160. [08:49:41] <mfbot> GeorgeBrock edited value-class-pattern "/* Examples in the wild */ Added georgebrock.com and blog.georgebrock.com" (+166) http://is.gd/z6uD
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  169. [10:48:31] <mfbot> Sahadar edited Main Page-pl "/* Specyfikacja */ " (+0) http://is.gd/z7Ru
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  177. [13:00:03] <drewinthehead> yo microformats massive. (ahem).
  178. [13:00:38] <drewinthehead> hoping to have a value-class-pattern implementation in hkit shortly
  179. [13:00:48] <Phae> swish
  180. [13:03:48] <drewinthehead> not saying it'll be a good implementation ... :)
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  182. [13:14:28] * ajturner (n=ajturner@209.155.228.129) has joined #microformats
  183. [13:17:32] <ntoll> hey drewinthehead don't you know we're only in this chan to follow mfbot's wiki update messages? :-)
  184. [13:17:47] <drewinthehead> sorry ntoll ;)
  185. [13:17:58] <ntoll> ;-)
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  199. [14:19:00] <Phae> i don't think we've had this many @s in here for a while :)
  200. [14:19:37] <drewinthehead> or so much conversation ;)
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  208. [14:41:47] * jrodgers (n=jrodgers@spg-wks-bff2.uwaterloo.ca) has joined #microformats
  209. [14:58:04] <mfbot> Brian edited events "added Twiist.be conference link" (+283) http://is.gd/zbHn
  210. [15:03:38] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  211. [15:19:07] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-71-202-163-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  212. [15:20:38] <KevinMarks> http://www.wolf-howl.com/seo/hcards-microformats-address/
  213. [15:21:00] * pesla (n=retep@procurios.xs4all.nl) Quit ("( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.21 :: www.esnation.com )")
  214. [15:21:11] <KevinMarks> "If you go to the official HCard Microformat wiki website and try to learn about HCards, your head will explode … really. It’s so complex, non intuitive, and written up in the stratosphere, only a PHD and patent attorney could love it … really"
  215. [15:23:05] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-0ec741a6d82752a9) has joined #microformats
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  217. [15:24:08] <KevinMarks> his comments are broken, or I'd point at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring
  218. [15:24:45] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@c-71-202-163-211.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  219. [15:25:33] <Phae> i think he exaggerates slightly
  220. [15:25:39] <tobyink> KevinMarks: the sample hCard included in the article is also seriously broken.
  221. [15:25:51] <tobyink> Not just broken hCard, but also broken HTML.
  222. [15:25:51] <Phae> besides, specs should be written like legalalese. they need to be precise. authoring pages cut through that
  223. [15:25:52] <briansuda___> KevinMarks maybe we should add a link on the hCard page too, to help others to find the authoring page
  224. [15:25:55] <Phae> the W3C is the same
  225. [15:26:12] <Phae> -some letters. legalese
  226. [15:26:48] <Phae> is it not linked already, briansuda___? definitely should.
  227. [15:27:31] <briansuda___> sorry, it is the fourth link on the page
  228. [15:27:40] <Phae> bump it up to the top then?
  229. [15:27:43] <Phae> if you didn't spot it....
  230. [15:27:56] <tobyink> Phae: agree, specs need to be precise, but should be accompanied by tutorials / authoring guides. That said, there's no reason a spec can't be precise but also helpful and clearly worded.
  231. [15:28:02] * briansuda___ didn't look at the page first
  232. [15:28:03] <Phae> sure :)
  233. [15:30:44] * tim_hwang (n=chatzill@dhcp-0015170860-ad-2c.client.fas.harvard.edu) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. [15:33:50] * thomasknoll (n=thomaskn@198.144.216.134) has joined #microformats
  235. [15:34:33] <mfbot> Phae edited hcard "drawing a bit more attention to the authoring tips links" (+6) http://is.gd/zcnL
  236. [15:35:53] * jonrohan (n=jrohan@208.82.18.93) has joined #microformats
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  241. [16:37:27] <drewinthehead> why is the first example in XML, not HTML? http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
  242. [16:41:58] * jonrohan (n=jrohan@208.82.18.93) has left #microformats
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  248. [17:11:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o benward
  249. [17:18:16] <tantek> drewinthehead, BenWard may have the answer to your question. http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats/IRC/2009-05-12#T163727
  250. [17:20:00] <benward> drewinthehead tantek Hmm. Fair catch. I think it was intended to avoid ‘must-use-span’-syndrome when I was drafting, but agree that's just confusing with the HTML elements used as well. Will update it.
  251. [17:20:18] * adactio (n=adactio@host81-157-231-228.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
  252. [17:22:33] <mfbot> BenWard edited value-class-pattern "/* Basic Parsing */ Updated the grandchild nesting example to use HTML, rather than XML soup." (+35) http://is.gd/zegt
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  258. [17:52:04] <mfbot> BenWard edited html5 "Restate regarding REV/data-rev" (+313) http://is.gd/zeGr
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  268. [18:22:31] <tantek> Looks like Kevin Marks is tweeting about some interesting announcements today: http://twitter.com/kevinmarks
  269. [18:23:13] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@nat/google/x-0ec741a6d82752a9) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  276. [18:47:28] <KevinMarks> http://google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=146897
  277. [18:49:10] <benward> Nice :)
  278. [18:50:10] <benward> Ooh, your hCard example is a bit soupy (not alt="" attribute on the image, mixed XHTML and HTML element style).
  279. [18:51:05] <benward> And you could have <abbr class="region" title="Arizona">AZ</abbr> rather than a span. Otherwise, very nice :-)
  280. [18:53:24] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-606737c78b80e202) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  281. [19:11:45] * csarven (n=csarven@modemcable150.182-202-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  282. [19:17:12] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  283. [19:17:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o drewinthehead
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  287. [19:50:09] <tantek> The SEOs have picked up the Google announcement of support for microformats and are running with it: http://searchengineland.com/google-search-now-supports-microformats-and-adds-rich-snippets-to-search-results-19055
  288. [19:50:57] <benward> Shame the examples on Google pages are full of errors :/
  289. [19:52:14] <csarven> All in all, this is great news
  290. [19:54:44] <csarven> I don't see any result item showing h* though. Do you guys know of any sites/pages indexed and viewable in SERPs as such?
  291. [20:04:45] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-80-4-217-54.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  292. [20:25:44] <csarven> Apparently, this is going to be the "new SEO hangout" =)
  293. [20:27:58] * briansuda (n=briansud@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net) has joined #microformats
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  297. [20:29:14] <drewinthehead> got in a ravel with value-class-pattern in hkit. chucking it out and trying again
  298. [20:30:15] <drewinthehead> would like to chuck all of hkit out and try again ;)
  299. [20:30:50] <belling> Hello #microformats. I'm looking to ask some questions about a possible new pattern.
  300. [20:31:34] * thomasknoll (n=thomaskn@173-11-69-17-SFBA.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) has joined #microformats
  301. [20:32:18] <drewinthehead> it's a pretty efficient and nicely functional ball of shit :)
  302. [20:32:25] <drewinthehead> hello belling
  303. [20:32:34] <belling> Howdy.
  304. [20:32:41] <drewinthehead> fire away
  305. [20:33:37] <belling> So, I was thinking about something like a Catalog. It would probably include the Search Results exploratory discussion, but be broader in concept
  306. [20:33:54] <belling> Is anyone looking at something like that?
  307. [20:33:58] <drewinthehead> a good place to read r.e. new formats is http://microformats.org/wiki/process - have you checked that out?
  308. [20:34:11] <belling> Yep. That's why in IRC :-)
  309. [20:34:15] <drewinthehead> great
  310. [20:34:18] <belling> *I'm in*
  311. [20:34:46] <drewinthehead> so what would a 'catalogue' be?
  312. [20:36:05] * tim_hwang (n=chatzill@dhcp-0015170860-ad-2c.client.fas.harvard.edu) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  313. [20:37:23] <belling> It would be any group of items, whether created by user search or not. It's not just a ul or ol, because there's additional metadata that goes into it. The OpenSearch Response Elements spec gives totalResults, startIndex, and itemsPerPage, but that's not a complete list.
  314. [20:38:02] <drewinthehead> what examples do you have outside of srp?
  315. [20:38:02] <belling> There's also sorting/filtering, and sort order.
  316. [20:38:03] <csarven> What are you trying to solve?
  317. [20:39:48] <belling> 1) I'm trying to add machine-readable markup to any collection of data, which may itself be made up of machine-readable microformats (hProduct, hCard, etc.)
  318. [20:40:46] <belling> I'm approaching it from the product perspective. I built these search results before I started learning Microformats (don't be too harsh on the HTML -- I'm aware of some flaws) http://www.rei.com/search/shoes
  319. [20:41:17] <csarven> Have you looked into hAtom?
  320. [20:41:32] <belling> Nope. I should.
  321. [20:42:24] <belling> Since OpenSearch Response is mostly conceived as Atom/RSS, maybe that would make sense. But it seems incomplete.
  322. [20:42:44] * tim_hwang (n=chatzill@65.112.13.22) has joined #microformats
  323. [20:43:08] * Politoed[FEUP] (n=Theorem@aulas-c.fe.up.pt) has joined #microformats
  324. [20:43:51] <belling> Since Search Results made it at least this far (http://microformats.org/wiki/search-results-example) it seems that there might be interest in expanding on that.
  325. [20:44:22] * briansuda (n=briansud@cust217-dsl91-135-3.idnet.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  326. [20:46:27] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
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  328. [20:50:33] <belling> It seems to me that hAtom is good at saying "here's a collection of stuff" but it's not giving any information on what went into making the collection of stuff. "Order published" isn't how people experience product catalogs or Google searches. And unless I'm missing it, there's no pagination support.
  329. [20:51:50] <csarven> rel="prev", rel="next"
  330. [20:52:13] * KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-2af8ea38860bd9e5) has joined #microformats
  331. [20:53:19] <belling> Yes, but pagination in the wild can be by groups "next 10" or even by navigating up or down through a filtering hierarchy. Maybe that last isn't strictly "pagination..."
  332. [20:55:12] <belling> Maybe what I'm thinking about is an extension of hAtom though.
  333. [20:57:34] <csarven> Right. That's an arbitrary setting.
  334. [21:00:42] <belling> The OpenSearch Document Description provides a means to capture stuff as URL parameters. It seems to me that there's value in putting it in the HTML.
  335. [21:01:17] * georgebrock (n=georgebr@client-80-4-219-237.cht-bng-011.adsl.virginmedia.net) has joined #microformats
  336. [21:03:01] <belling> FWIW, I wrote up OpenSearch as RELAX NG schemas to get to know them better: http://brookellingwood.com/_schema/OpenSearchDescriptionDocument.rng http://brookellingwood.com/_schema/OpenSearchResponseElements_NON-CONFORMING.rng
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  349. [22:31:56] <mfbot> Ianmcall edited hreview "/* Microformats Draft Specification 2006-02-22 */ " (-29) http://is.gd/zhZU
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These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.