IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-08-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  9. [00:43:39] <tantek> mkaply, yes, if dtend is just a time, infer date from dtstart
  10. [00:43:55] <tantek> part of the value-class-pattern, being incorporated into hCalendar 1.0.1
  11. [00:44:12] <tantek> madness - interesting, will take a look at the "principles" format research
  12. [00:44:27] <tantek> certainly on the microformats.org wiki we link to our principles
  13. [00:44:35] <tantek> but is this really common enough to merit a microformat?
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  15. [00:45:11] <tantek> certainly it seems reasonable to start with a rel="principles" poshformat and see if it actually gets any traction
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  17. [00:47:09] <tantek> similarly I like the rel="accessibility" poshformat (I think it was from Bruce Lawson) to link to an accessibility statement/page about the current page - makes sense to make those links machine discoverable so that ATs can quickly provide them as an explicit navigation option.
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  40. [04:39:06] <JonathanMalek> tantek: we're looking at rel-principles as a required field in news
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  54. [06:51:30] <tantek> JonathanMalek - experience with microformats development has shown that ideally (for publishers) a microformat has ZERO required properties, at most one, and specifies intelligent behavior for all other properties when omitted.
  55. [06:52:22] <tantek> requiring publishers to specify a property by fiat rarely works well in practice. if they have sufficient incentive to publish that information in the first place, then they're likely to want to mark it up. if they lack such incentive, they're unlikely to bother just because a spec says they should. or they'll specify it with filler/noise data just to comply with the letter of the spec, which is also undesirable.
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  59. [07:42:57] <JonathanMalek> tantek: understood
  60. [07:43:24] <tantek> it's like dumb web signup-registration forms that make people enter a zip code
  61. [07:43:41] <JonathanMalek> been thinking through this, and considering the idea that broader (e.g. hatom) microformats should be forgiving and all-inclusive
  62. [07:43:43] <tantek> such web apps get LOTS of people signing up from Beverly Hills
  63. [07:44:01] <tantek> because people overseas know the zip code "90210" ;)
  64. [07:44:10] <JonathanMalek> ah--that's funny!
  65. [07:44:24] <tantek> you force people to fill in form fields they don't want to, and they'll just put in crap. and no amount of validation code you write can detect it.
  66. [07:44:29] <tantek> required form fields = futile.
  67. [07:44:33] <tantek> bad UI
  68. [07:44:42] <tantek> same thing with required properties for web formats.
  69. [07:44:57] <tantek> basically it's elementary UI/UX/psych
  70. [07:45:00] <JonathanMalek> understood--and I agree
  71. [07:45:11] <tantek> but format designers (especially developers) rarely think about such things :)
  72. [07:45:20] <JonathanMalek> consider this
  73. [07:45:21] <tantek> (probably worth a wiki page or article)
  74. [07:45:31] <tantek> "SHOULD" is perfectly reasonable though
  75. [07:45:51] <JonathanMalek> as you get more specific, or perhaps, specialized
  76. [07:46:00] <JonathanMalek> i.e. from hatom -> news
  77. [07:46:28] <tantek> Atom is a prime example of this problem actually
  78. [07:46:30] <tantek> and even hAtom too
  79. [07:46:33] <JonathanMalek> the idea of adding more optional fields in my mind just means fluff
  80. [07:46:34] <tantek> we're learning lessons
  81. [07:46:55] <JonathanMalek> in other words, the reason for introducing a subclass of a microformat
  82. [07:47:13] <JonathanMalek> should be to introduce real value
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  84. [07:47:31] <tantek> you don't get more value through fiat
  85. [07:47:36] <tantek> you get more value through incentive
  86. [07:47:40] <JonathanMalek> true
  87. [07:47:53] <JonathanMalek> but there is no fiat that says you have to subclass from hatom to news
  88. [07:48:08] <JonathanMalek> if you don't have the added fields, stick with hatom
  89. [07:48:34] <JonathanMalek> one of the key benefits I've been thinking about with news is that parsers already understand most of it
  90. [07:48:48] <JonathanMalek> they understand the hatom part
  91. [07:49:05] <tantek> right - which might make a good case for adding the new optional fields directly to an iteration to hAtom! (e.g. perhaps hAtom 0.3)
  92. [07:49:34] <tantek> (depending on research and uptake)
  93. [07:49:46] <tantek> (another brainstorm option to consider)
  94. [07:49:57] <JonathanMalek> thinking
  95. [07:50:32] <tantek> (good to explore separately first - more modular)
  96. [07:50:51] <JonathanMalek> agreed
  97. [07:51:16] <JonathanMalek> I would think that adding in more and more fields that aren't directly associated with Atom
  98. [07:51:26] <JonathanMalek> would "tear" at the intentions of hAtom
  99. [07:51:56] <JonathanMalek> and that subclassing (or inheriting) is a cleaner option for parsers and publishers alike
  100. [07:52:46] <JonathanMalek> in other words--and in our case--if you're a news publisher who doesn't want to use the news format--at least use hatom (and then you're most of the way there)
  101. [07:52:53] <tantek> or thinking of news as a news mixin
  102. [07:53:12] <tantek> even a rel-principles could stand alone as its own mixin
  103. [07:53:28] <JonathanMalek> right
  104. [07:53:31] <JonathanMalek> and should, I think
  105. [07:53:49] <JonathanMalek> I can't speak for the Media Standards Trust team
  106. [07:54:10] <JonathanMalek> but from what I've seen, they have a big roadmap for journalistic principles
  107. [07:54:28] <JonathanMalek> a subclass (or mixin) of rel-principles
  108. [07:54:32] <tantek> "roadmap" - that's one of those enterprise words right ? ;)
  109. [07:54:37] <JonathanMalek> hah
  110. [07:55:57] <tantek> I agree that adding in non-Atom fields to hAtom could cloud the meaning/clarity of hAtom
  111. [07:56:01] <JonathanMalek> enterprise indeed--a nice fluffy word for "something I haven't been briefed on yet :)
  112. [07:56:32] <JonathanMalek> yes--one of the issues we had from the start was the use of "source"
  113. [07:56:42] <tantek> Having worked at more than my fair share of BigCos, I've seen far too many "roadmaps" that have nothing to do with the actual territory
  114. [07:56:51] <JonathanMalek> critical for news, implied in url everywhere else, I think
  115. [07:57:08] <JonathanMalek> lol, true enough
  116. [07:57:16] <tantek> "source" maybe another way of stating the citation problem
  117. [07:57:24] <tantek> may be
  118. [07:57:59] <JonathanMalek> well, that's an interesting take
  119. [07:58:13] <JonathanMalek> that's the third definition of source we find in news
  120. [07:58:22] <tantek> do you know any news folks that use the <cite> tag in their HTML today?
  121. [07:58:46] <JonathanMalek> hmmm--let me check with Stuart
  122. [07:59:15] <JonathanMalek> I know that as we ramp up our own systems for hnews
  123. [07:59:25] <JonathanMalek> things like that will become easier
  124. [08:00:47] <JonathanMalek> I know our own authoring system doesn't capture that metadata
  125. [08:00:55] <JonathanMalek> (yet--we're replacing it)
  126. [08:06:52] <JonathanMalek> on your earlier point (eschew required), when considering a specialized type like hnews (or any derivative of hatom--hslice could have been an example), does it still seem futile to "require" fields? Keeping in mind that *not* providing the required fields does not result in an empty set.
  127. [08:07:04] <JonathanMalek> In our case, you still get a valuable hentry
  128. [08:07:46] <tantek> yes - still futile to have required fields
  129. [08:07:52] <tantek> SHOULD is good. MUST is bad.
  130. [08:08:28] <JonathanMalek> and that it almost makes sense to me that *no* fields in a specialized class should be optional (all optional should promote up to the superclass)--perhaps that's not reasonable?
  131. [08:08:58] <JonathanMalek> take hnews--we consider geo to be optional
  132. [08:09:27] <JonathanMalek> but only because hAtom doesn't describe the Atom analog (RSSgeo, or whatever it is, don't remember)
  133. [08:12:01] <JonathanMalek> I would think promoting geo up into hAtom benefits everyone, and further clarifies hnews as a specialization of hAtom.
  134. [08:15:56] <JonathanMalek> saw Kevin Marks' msg earlier, about falling asleep at the keyboard--dangerously close to doing the same :)
  135. [08:16:34] <tantek> heh
  136. [08:16:47] <tantek> geo in blog posts has always been ambiguous
  137. [08:16:57] <tantek> because in that context, geo is more of a type than a property
  138. [08:17:22] <JonathanMalek> reading your link on xml/big data
  139. [08:20:13] <JonathanMalek> great article
  140. [08:20:32] <tantek> yeah - lots of food for thought
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  143. [08:42:08] <tantek> things that are "required" in formats really end up being not much more than wishful thinking
  144. [08:42:27] <tantek> or worse, an outright discouragement to people
  145. [08:42:35] <tantek> or worse than discouragement, fragility
  146. [08:42:47] <tantek> e.g. XML's draconian error handling = fragility
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  149. [10:03:18] <tantek> hey Kevinmarks - still awake at foo?
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  152. [10:20:44] <KevBurnsJr> #foocamp http://is.gd/2FGOU
  153. [10:22:04] <tantek> KevBurnsJr - whoa - how recent is that? from this year?
  154. [10:22:12] <KevBurnsJr> i wouldn't doubt it
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  199. [18:05:51] <JonathanMalek> tantek: is there a page on microformats.org for this must-should discussion?
  200. [18:06:28] <JonathanMalek> I can't find one--wondering if the discussion has been happening in another forum.
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  208. [18:50:38] <tantekc> JonathanMalek - it's fairly new (the result of years of experience with existing (micro)formats) and has been happening in IRC for a while
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  218. [19:53:38] <tantek> JonathanMalek - a lot of this has been learned by experience from some of the re-use of existing formats in microformats, e.g. vCard in hCard, and Atom in hAtom
  219. [19:54:14] <tantek> many of the MUSTS/requirements of the original formats made it into the respective microformats - but even then it was obvious that the source formats were too burdensome to authors
  220. [19:54:22] <tantek> too many artificial musts/requireds
  221. [19:55:05] <tantek> and thus both hCard and hAtom made some properties *optional* that were required in the source formats, by denoting good algorithms for synthesizing required properties when necessary
  222. [19:55:55] <tantek> but even with a reduction of number of required properties (as compared to the source formats), there have *still* been numerous examples where the requirements have gotten in the way of publishing (or parsing)
  223. [19:56:28] <tantek> and with people making up values for the "required" properties, like "anonymous" as a value for author in hAtom
  224. [19:57:04] <tantek> in hCard, I created a bunch of optimizations for easier web publishing, but experience has shown than even more optimizations ( = fewer required properties, more flexibility) are both necessary and useful
  225. [19:57:42] <tantek> one of my first public observations about this required/MUST problem was this tweet: http://twitter.com/t/status/3293046574
  226. [19:58:26] <tantek> ... and yes - I should write this up on a wiki page. braindumping in IRC for now to at least give you the thinking that is going on, and raw material for the logs (from which a page can be written)
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  231. [20:19:51] <tantek> a couple more tweets on this topic:
  232. [20:19:52] <tantek> http://twitter.com/t/status/3631221162
  233. [20:20:00] <tantek> http://twitter.com/t/status/3631366361
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