IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-08-31
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [16:41:47] <to_>
in a photo's caption, what html tag to choose to show the photographer?
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- [17:13:27] <madness>
tantek: re: principles not sure yet. I'll look for more.
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- [20:10:37] <panik>
hey all
- [20:11:14] <panik>
how can i hide a div class=fn from my webpage but still have it come through on my vcard
- [20:12:14] <tantek>
why do you want to put hidden data on your page?
- [20:12:20] <tantek>
is there not an fn you can markup?
- [20:12:26] <tantek>
a *visible* fn
- [20:13:01] <panik>
my fn n is an img
- [20:13:12] <panik>
with i had a typekit invite lol
- [20:13:19] <panik>
*wish
- [20:15:30] <csarven>
That might depend on the parser. AFAIK, Operator is able to differentiate between hidden and visible
- [20:17:05] <panik>
im going to try visibility: hidden
- [20:17:10] <panik>
once it's all setup
- [20:17:20] <panik>
do i use technorati to parse the vcard to download it?
- [20:17:23] <panik>
im confused about that
- [20:18:26] <csarven>
There are many vcard2hcard online transformers. Listed in the wiki somewhere :)
- [20:18:50] <panik>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations
- [20:18:52] <panik>
is this the page?
- [20:19:17] <panik>
what is the most popular choice?
- [20:20:18] <csarven>
I'm not sure which is the most popular, but, you can try a few and see which one you like the most or suitable for you
- [20:20:52] <csarven>
Some of them look for various formats in Web pages and may be slower.
- [20:21:04] <csarven>
The Technorati one is pretty simple and quick IIRC
- [20:21:36] <csarven>
Swignition can tackle quite a bit
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- [20:24:47] <panik>
ahh yes technorati one works quite well
- [20:28:17] <tantek>
panik - you can use fn on the img and put the fn text in the alt
- [20:28:21] <tantek>
twitter does this for example
- [20:28:27] <panik>
ahh no kidding
- [20:28:27] <tantek>
alt attribute that is
- [20:28:36] <tantek>
yes - deliberate part of hCard-parsing
- [20:28:43] <panik>
i thought there would be a way
- [20:29:26] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Photographs
- [20:29:33] <panik>
thx :)
- [20:29:47] <tantek>
np
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- [20:33:33] <panik>
is this correct
- [20:33:34] <panik>
<a class="url fn" href="http://horvath.me/"><img src="img/peter.png" alt="Peter Horvath"></a>
- [20:33:40] <panik>
i seem to be having trouble with it
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- [21:01:19] <panik>
anyway to get rid of SOURCE: http://... from the notes section?
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- [21:18:51] <JonathanMalek_>
I've posted a draft of hnews--it's not linked yet from anywhere, as I need a bit more time to clean it up, and I'm really concerned about the two "required" fields we have, given the direction from Saturday's discussion.
- [21:22:06] <tantek>
JonathanMalek - the root class name being required is reasonable as that is how you identify that the microformat is in use. note that the root class name is not itself a property.
- [21:22:16] <tantek>
the discussion Saturday was specifically about required properties
- [21:22:48] <tantek>
and yes, I think source-org should not be required (the term "source-org" feels awkward as well)
- [21:22:50] <JonathanMalek_>
totally understood--and we have two, I believe
- [21:22:56] <JonathanMalek_>
source-org, and principles
- [21:23:01] <tantek>
and item-license
- [21:23:01] <JonathanMalek_>
agreed
- [21:23:26] <JonathanMalek_>
ah, yes, item-license...
- [21:23:31] <JonathanMalek_>
so, on source-org
- [21:23:45] <JonathanMalek_>
we wanted to use source, it's a common term in the vocabularies
- [21:23:52] <tantek>
I'll add some issues to news-brainstorming
- [21:23:53] <JonathanMalek_>
but it conflicts with atom:source
- [21:24:06] <tantek>
but in short - I don't think this is ready to be a "draft" per se - that is, encouraging people to use the vocabulary
- [21:24:21] <tantek>
"source" is overloaded yes
- [21:24:30] <JonathanMalek_>
and if hatom ever adopts that, we didn't want the name conflict (since we inherit), so--source-org.
- [21:24:41] <tantek>
before Atom "source" there was also vCard SOURCE
- [21:24:45] <tantek>
was/is
- [21:25:52] <JonathanMalek_>
understood on being ready for "draft"--just looking for ways to help the conversation along around news-brainstorming, and considering examples would be helpful.
- [21:25:59] <tantek>
I also think that geo should be proposed as in hatom-brainstorming as an addition to hAtom directly
- [21:26:09] <JonathanMalek_>
agreed
- [21:26:39] <tantek>
right, moving forward from brainstorming towards authoring a draft is good.
- [21:27:03] <JonathanMalek_>
the idea is to "promote" properties up wherever possible, without forcing specialization into hatom
- [21:27:16] <JonathanMalek_>
I think geo belongs there, and I believe there is already a recommendation for that
- [21:27:23] <tantek>
we don't have a way to distinguish a "first-draft" from more mature "drafts" right now - and the Category is being used as styling only for more "mature" drafts and thus perhaps that needs changing (and perhaps the header of the page accordingly as well)
- [21:27:32] <JonathanMalek_>
got it
- [21:27:35] <JonathanMalek_>
will do
- [21:27:45] <tantek>
brainstorming should link to such a recommendation in hatom-brainstorming with a fragment id
- [21:28:04] <JonathanMalek_>
ok, will do that too
- [21:28:11] <tantek>
past efforts have fully written a draft spec on the brainstorming page before moving it to its own page
- [21:28:22] <JonathanMalek_>
ah
- [21:28:27] <tantek>
and included a "naming" section on the brainstorming page which discusses various naming options
- [21:28:34] <tantek>
with advantages/disadvantages
- [21:28:46] <tantek>
which avoids the problem of having to come up with a name just to create a first draft of a spec
- [21:29:14] <tantek>
(in this case obviously it is likely that hNews is a good name, but it's still good to provide a section on the brainstorming page discussing that, and maybe listing a few rejected options)
- [21:29:18] <tantek>
(with reasoning)
- [21:30:05] <tantek>
btw, JonathanMalek, just want to say I really appreciate the throughness of the work you have done on the news microformat
- [21:31:19] <tantek>
developing a new microformat is not easy (nor should it be), and those that come along later will see the path of research, analysis, and reasoning that made its way into the spec
- [21:31:48] <JonathanMalek_>
we have a Naming section in brainstorming, but no discussion has occurred on it in the past couple of weeks. Warnock's Dilemma ;)
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- [21:40:38] <JonathanMalek_>
tantek: thanks! Anything worth doing is worth doing right, and doing this right...
- [21:42:45] <JonathanMalek_>
I'll move this all into the brainstorming section
- [21:50:54] <tantek>
thanks much JonathanMalek
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- [22:02:36] <JonathanMalek_>
ok, those moves are done, and the link to the hatom-geo discussion is in place.
- [22:05:18] <tantek>
awesome
- [22:05:43] <JonathanMalek_>
hoping the proposal makes it clear what we're trying to do: examples will be even better
- [22:06:38] <JonathanMalek_>
we're getting a lot of questions (and some serious misunderstanding, including from Google) regarding the concept of inheriting from hatom
- [22:07:34] <tantek>
inheritance in general has always caused lots of questions and misunderstanding
- [22:07:41] <tantek>
it's one of the biggest design flaws of OOP
- [22:08:07] <JonathanMalek_>
I think for the most part
- [22:08:18] <JonathanMalek_>
people just miss the concept that we're reusing hAtom
- [22:08:29] <tantek>
re-use good. inheritance bad.
- [22:08:31] <JonathanMalek_>
and are asking questions like, "why only 5 fields for news?"
- [22:08:55] <JonathanMalek_>
"Because we don't want to retype the hatom spec" is not a good answer yet :)
- [22:09:00] <tantek>
sounds like a good way to start /wiki/news-faq :)
- [22:09:09] <JonathanMalek_>
absolutely right
- [22:09:34] <tantek>
JonathanMalek - it also might be better to consider defining a news item/addition which is a special kind of hAtom entry or addition - rather than discussing news as inheriting or subclassing hAtom
- [22:09:56] <JonathanMalek_>
hmmm
- [22:10:06] <JonathanMalek_>
struggled with that idea early on
- [22:10:09] <tantek>
note that hReview is reviews about items, and those items used to just have a name (fn), photo, url
- [22:10:15] <tantek>
and grew to include an hCard instead
- [22:10:19] <tantek>
and an hCalendar vevent instead
- [22:10:32] <tantek>
and similarly people can now composite hMedia to do reviews of media items
- [22:10:33] <tantek>
etc.
- [22:10:59] <tantek>
this kind of re-use, composition, works MUCH better in practice with human data (documents) than *any* form of programming language inheritance
- [22:11:09] <JonathanMalek_>
completely agreed
- [22:11:26] <JonathanMalek_>
we're depending heavily on that idea
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- [22:13:29] <JonathanMalek_>
for instance, AP classification systems do entity extraction, subject, geo and event identification. Rather than describing those as parts of a news story, authors/publishers are free to mark those up however they see fit. The simplest is a rel-tag, the more thorough (and interesting) would be hCard or hCalendar.
- [22:17:33] <JonathanMalek_>
composing news stories using a range of tools, from simplest to the kind of change that impacts your authoring system.
- [22:18:10] <JonathanMalek_>
on your statement: "a special kind of hAtom entry", I think that's exactly what we're doing.
- [22:19:12] <JonathanMalek_>
though maybe I need to understand that point a bit better--my thought is that, using DavidJanes' suggestion, "hentry [some-other-root]" as the right way to express "specialized" instances of hatom.
- [22:19:45] <JonathanMalek_>
Benefit to parsers and authors alike--if you can't parse or produce the specialization, you can still benefit by parsing/emitting hentry.
- [22:20:49] <csarven>
I think Comments may be another good example for specialized hAtom.. It is not fully sorted out yet though
- [22:21:19] <tantek>
JonathanMalek - I agree that's what you're conceptually doing with the news work, but I think the documentation does not currently reflect that viewpoint / positioning - and could be updated to improve that.
- [22:21:30] <tantek>
csarven - comments could also be marked up as hReview
- [22:21:37] <tantek>
as a comment is often feedback/review of a post
- [22:22:03] <tantek>
now a *time ordered list* of comments could *also* be marked up as hAtom
- [22:22:42] <csarven>
Could stretch it even to hCalendar I suppose
- [22:25:07] <JonathanMalek_>
tantek: will look at the docs to express that clearer. It's become fairly obvious that the intent to define a root class "hnews" that *will not* parse without including "hentry" is not an immediately graspable concept. I would have thought that class="hnews hentry" would be immediately clear as to objective, but that's not the case.
- [22:27:56] <tantek>
csarven - no, not hCalendar, because they're not "events" in the human event sense
- [22:28:28] <csarven>
I realise that. It is a stretch
- [22:28:35] <tantek>
JonathanMalek, maybe class="hentry hnews" may be better understood (though it is semantically identically)
- [22:28:47] <tantek>
csarven - it's worse than a stretch, it's a dilutionary abuse
- [22:29:00] <tantek>
we made the mistake of doing this with issues on the wiki
- [22:29:06] <tantek>
the template used to use hCalendar
- [22:29:15] <JonathanMalek_>
I'll make sure the examples use that--that's a great clarification
- [22:29:17] <tantek>
but that made little sense, both semantically, and practically
- [22:29:24] <tantek>
nobody views issues in a calendar program!
- [22:29:31] <tantek>
it's nonsensical
- [22:29:59] <tantek>
JonathanMalek, for similar examples see hCalendar e.g. "location vcard", and hReview, e.g. "item vevent"
- [22:30:35] <JonathanMalek_>
"hentry [specialized-root]" while only playing with order and nothing else, just makes it clearer
- [22:30:37] <csarven>
What about microblogging notices? Would you see them as events?
- [22:31:18] <tantek>
activity stream type stuff? no
- [22:31:29] <tantek>
hCalendar events are for *human* events, not machine events
- [22:31:42] <tantek>
machine events are essentially *anything* that has a timestamp
- [22:31:51] <tantek>
in the context of human calendars, that's not useful
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- [22:35:29] <csarven>
Must sleep. Later all
- [22:36:26] <tantek>
later csarven!
- [22:36:39] <csarven>
Thanks
- [22:38:14] <csarven>
I've been having an on/off internal debate with myself about using hCalendar in StatusNet (formerly aka Laconica updates. Good that I've put that off :)
- [22:38:24] <tantek>
thanks csarven
- [22:38:31] <tantek>
StatusNet definitely hAtom :)
- [22:39:39] <csarven>
Bye
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