IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-08-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  99. [16:41:47] <to_> in a photo's caption, what html tag to choose to show the photographer?
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  117. [17:13:27] <madness> tantek: re: principles not sure yet. I'll look for more.
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  148. [20:10:37] <panik> hey all
  149. [20:11:14] <panik> how can i hide a div class=fn from my webpage but still have it come through on my vcard
  150. [20:12:14] <tantek> why do you want to put hidden data on your page?
  151. [20:12:20] <tantek> is there not an fn you can markup?
  152. [20:12:26] <tantek> a *visible* fn
  153. [20:13:01] <panik> my fn n is an img
  154. [20:13:12] <panik> with i had a typekit invite lol
  155. [20:13:19] <panik> *wish
  156. [20:15:30] <csarven> That might depend on the parser. AFAIK, Operator is able to differentiate between hidden and visible
  157. [20:17:05] <panik> im going to try visibility: hidden
  158. [20:17:10] <panik> once it's all setup
  159. [20:17:20] <panik> do i use technorati to parse the vcard to download it?
  160. [20:17:23] <panik> im confused about that
  161. [20:18:26] <csarven> There are many vcard2hcard online transformers. Listed in the wiki somewhere :)
  162. [20:18:50] <panik> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-implementations
  163. [20:18:52] <panik> is this the page?
  164. [20:19:17] <panik> what is the most popular choice?
  165. [20:20:18] <csarven> I'm not sure which is the most popular, but, you can try a few and see which one you like the most or suitable for you
  166. [20:20:52] <csarven> Some of them look for various formats in Web pages and may be slower.
  167. [20:21:04] <csarven> The Technorati one is pretty simple and quick IIRC
  168. [20:21:36] <csarven> Swignition can tackle quite a bit
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  171. [20:24:47] <panik> ahh yes technorati one works quite well
  172. [20:28:17] <tantek> panik - you can use fn on the img and put the fn text in the alt
  173. [20:28:21] <tantek> twitter does this for example
  174. [20:28:27] <panik> ahh no kidding
  175. [20:28:27] <tantek> alt attribute that is
  176. [20:28:36] <tantek> yes - deliberate part of hCard-parsing
  177. [20:28:43] <panik> i thought there would be a way
  178. [20:29:26] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring#Photographs
  179. [20:29:33] <panik> thx :)
  180. [20:29:47] <tantek> np
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  182. [20:33:33] <panik> is this correct
  183. [20:33:34] <panik> <a class="url fn" href="http://horvath.me/"><img src="img/peter.png" alt="Peter Horvath"></a>
  184. [20:33:40] <panik> i seem to be having trouble with it
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  187. [21:01:19] <panik> anyway to get rid of SOURCE: http://... from the notes section?
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  192. [21:18:51] <JonathanMalek_> I've posted a draft of hnews--it's not linked yet from anywhere, as I need a bit more time to clean it up, and I'm really concerned about the two "required" fields we have, given the direction from Saturday's discussion.
  193. [21:22:06] <tantek> JonathanMalek - the root class name being required is reasonable as that is how you identify that the microformat is in use. note that the root class name is not itself a property.
  194. [21:22:16] <tantek> the discussion Saturday was specifically about required properties
  195. [21:22:48] <tantek> and yes, I think source-org should not be required (the term "source-org" feels awkward as well)
  196. [21:22:50] <JonathanMalek_> totally understood--and we have two, I believe
  197. [21:22:56] <JonathanMalek_> source-org, and principles
  198. [21:23:01] <tantek> and item-license
  199. [21:23:01] <JonathanMalek_> agreed
  200. [21:23:26] <JonathanMalek_> ah, yes, item-license...
  201. [21:23:31] <JonathanMalek_> so, on source-org
  202. [21:23:45] <JonathanMalek_> we wanted to use source, it's a common term in the vocabularies
  203. [21:23:52] <tantek> I'll add some issues to news-brainstorming
  204. [21:23:53] <JonathanMalek_> but it conflicts with atom:source
  205. [21:24:06] <tantek> but in short - I don't think this is ready to be a "draft" per se - that is, encouraging people to use the vocabulary
  206. [21:24:21] <tantek> "source" is overloaded yes
  207. [21:24:30] <JonathanMalek_> and if hatom ever adopts that, we didn't want the name conflict (since we inherit), so--source-org.
  208. [21:24:41] <tantek> before Atom "source" there was also vCard SOURCE
  209. [21:24:45] <tantek> was/is
  210. [21:25:52] <JonathanMalek_> understood on being ready for "draft"--just looking for ways to help the conversation along around news-brainstorming, and considering examples would be helpful.
  211. [21:25:59] <tantek> I also think that geo should be proposed as in hatom-brainstorming as an addition to hAtom directly
  212. [21:26:09] <JonathanMalek_> agreed
  213. [21:26:39] <tantek> right, moving forward from brainstorming towards authoring a draft is good.
  214. [21:27:03] <JonathanMalek_> the idea is to "promote" properties up wherever possible, without forcing specialization into hatom
  215. [21:27:16] <JonathanMalek_> I think geo belongs there, and I believe there is already a recommendation for that
  216. [21:27:23] <tantek> we don't have a way to distinguish a "first-draft" from more mature "drafts" right now - and the Category is being used as styling only for more "mature" drafts and thus perhaps that needs changing (and perhaps the header of the page accordingly as well)
  217. [21:27:32] <JonathanMalek_> got it
  218. [21:27:35] <JonathanMalek_> will do
  219. [21:27:45] <tantek> brainstorming should link to such a recommendation in hatom-brainstorming with a fragment id
  220. [21:28:04] <JonathanMalek_> ok, will do that too
  221. [21:28:11] <tantek> past efforts have fully written a draft spec on the brainstorming page before moving it to its own page
  222. [21:28:22] <JonathanMalek_> ah
  223. [21:28:27] <tantek> and included a "naming" section on the brainstorming page which discusses various naming options
  224. [21:28:34] <tantek> with advantages/disadvantages
  225. [21:28:46] <tantek> which avoids the problem of having to come up with a name just to create a first draft of a spec
  226. [21:29:14] <tantek> (in this case obviously it is likely that hNews is a good name, but it's still good to provide a section on the brainstorming page discussing that, and maybe listing a few rejected options)
  227. [21:29:18] <tantek> (with reasoning)
  228. [21:30:05] <tantek> btw, JonathanMalek, just want to say I really appreciate the throughness of the work you have done on the news microformat
  229. [21:31:19] <tantek> developing a new microformat is not easy (nor should it be), and those that come along later will see the path of research, analysis, and reasoning that made its way into the spec
  230. [21:31:48] <JonathanMalek_> we have a Naming section in brainstorming, but no discussion has occurred on it in the past couple of weeks. Warnock's Dilemma ;)
  231. [21:35:09] * factoryjoe (n=factoryj@c-67-169-94-222.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  232. [21:40:38] <JonathanMalek_> tantek: thanks! Anything worth doing is worth doing right, and doing this right...
  233. [21:42:45] <JonathanMalek_> I'll move this all into the brainstorming section
  234. [21:50:54] <tantek> thanks much JonathanMalek
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  237. [22:02:36] <JonathanMalek_> ok, those moves are done, and the link to the hatom-geo discussion is in place.
  238. [22:05:18] <tantek> awesome
  239. [22:05:43] <JonathanMalek_> hoping the proposal makes it clear what we're trying to do: examples will be even better
  240. [22:06:38] <JonathanMalek_> we're getting a lot of questions (and some serious misunderstanding, including from Google) regarding the concept of inheriting from hatom
  241. [22:07:34] <tantek> inheritance in general has always caused lots of questions and misunderstanding
  242. [22:07:41] <tantek> it's one of the biggest design flaws of OOP
  243. [22:08:07] <JonathanMalek_> I think for the most part
  244. [22:08:18] <JonathanMalek_> people just miss the concept that we're reusing hAtom
  245. [22:08:29] <tantek> re-use good. inheritance bad.
  246. [22:08:31] <JonathanMalek_> and are asking questions like, "why only 5 fields for news?"
  247. [22:08:55] <JonathanMalek_> "Because we don't want to retype the hatom spec" is not a good answer yet :)
  248. [22:09:00] <tantek> sounds like a good way to start /wiki/news-faq :)
  249. [22:09:09] <JonathanMalek_> absolutely right
  250. [22:09:34] <tantek> JonathanMalek - it also might be better to consider defining a news item/addition which is a special kind of hAtom entry or addition - rather than discussing news as inheriting or subclassing hAtom
  251. [22:09:56] <JonathanMalek_> hmmm
  252. [22:10:06] <JonathanMalek_> struggled with that idea early on
  253. [22:10:09] <tantek> note that hReview is reviews about items, and those items used to just have a name (fn), photo, url
  254. [22:10:15] <tantek> and grew to include an hCard instead
  255. [22:10:19] <tantek> and an hCalendar vevent instead
  256. [22:10:32] <tantek> and similarly people can now composite hMedia to do reviews of media items
  257. [22:10:33] <tantek> etc.
  258. [22:10:59] <tantek> this kind of re-use, composition, works MUCH better in practice with human data (documents) than *any* form of programming language inheritance
  259. [22:11:09] <JonathanMalek_> completely agreed
  260. [22:11:26] <JonathanMalek_> we're depending heavily on that idea
  261. [22:12:34] * ajturner (n=ajturner@209.155.228.129) Quit ()
  262. [22:13:29] <JonathanMalek_> for instance, AP classification systems do entity extraction, subject, geo and event identification. Rather than describing those as parts of a news story, authors/publishers are free to mark those up however they see fit. The simplest is a rel-tag, the more thorough (and interesting) would be hCard or hCalendar.
  263. [22:17:33] <JonathanMalek_> composing news stories using a range of tools, from simplest to the kind of change that impacts your authoring system.
  264. [22:18:10] <JonathanMalek_> on your statement: "a special kind of hAtom entry", I think that's exactly what we're doing.
  265. [22:19:12] <JonathanMalek_> though maybe I need to understand that point a bit better--my thought is that, using DavidJanes' suggestion, "hentry [some-other-root]" as the right way to express "specialized" instances of hatom.
  266. [22:19:45] <JonathanMalek_> Benefit to parsers and authors alike--if you can't parse or produce the specialization, you can still benefit by parsing/emitting hentry.
  267. [22:20:49] <csarven> I think Comments may be another good example for specialized hAtom.. It is not fully sorted out yet though
  268. [22:21:19] <tantek> JonathanMalek - I agree that's what you're conceptually doing with the news work, but I think the documentation does not currently reflect that viewpoint / positioning - and could be updated to improve that.
  269. [22:21:30] <tantek> csarven - comments could also be marked up as hReview
  270. [22:21:37] <tantek> as a comment is often feedback/review of a post
  271. [22:22:03] <tantek> now a *time ordered list* of comments could *also* be marked up as hAtom
  272. [22:22:42] <csarven> Could stretch it even to hCalendar I suppose
  273. [22:25:07] <JonathanMalek_> tantek: will look at the docs to express that clearer. It's become fairly obvious that the intent to define a root class "hnews" that *will not* parse without including "hentry" is not an immediately graspable concept. I would have thought that class="hnews hentry" would be immediately clear as to objective, but that's not the case.
  274. [22:27:56] <tantek> csarven - no, not hCalendar, because they're not "events" in the human event sense
  275. [22:28:28] <csarven> I realise that. It is a stretch
  276. [22:28:35] <tantek> JonathanMalek, maybe class="hentry hnews" may be better understood (though it is semantically identically)
  277. [22:28:47] <tantek> csarven - it's worse than a stretch, it's a dilutionary abuse
  278. [22:29:00] <tantek> we made the mistake of doing this with issues on the wiki
  279. [22:29:06] <tantek> the template used to use hCalendar
  280. [22:29:15] <JonathanMalek_> I'll make sure the examples use that--that's a great clarification
  281. [22:29:17] <tantek> but that made little sense, both semantically, and practically
  282. [22:29:24] <tantek> nobody views issues in a calendar program!
  283. [22:29:31] <tantek> it's nonsensical
  284. [22:29:59] <tantek> JonathanMalek, for similar examples see hCalendar e.g. "location vcard", and hReview, e.g. "item vevent"
  285. [22:30:35] <JonathanMalek_> "hentry [specialized-root]" while only playing with order and nothing else, just makes it clearer
  286. [22:30:37] <csarven> What about microblogging notices? Would you see them as events?
  287. [22:31:18] <tantek> activity stream type stuff? no
  288. [22:31:29] <tantek> hCalendar events are for *human* events, not machine events
  289. [22:31:42] <tantek> machine events are essentially *anything* that has a timestamp
  290. [22:31:51] <tantek> in the context of human calendars, that's not useful
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  292. [22:35:29] <csarven> Must sleep. Later all
  293. [22:36:26] <tantek> later csarven!
  294. [22:36:39] <csarven> Thanks
  295. [22:38:14] <csarven> I've been having an on/off internal debate with myself about using hCalendar in StatusNet (formerly aka Laconica updates. Good that I've put that off :)
  296. [22:38:24] <tantek> thanks csarven
  297. [22:38:31] <tantek> StatusNet definitely hAtom :)
  298. [22:39:39] <csarven> Bye
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