IRC Log for #microformats on 2009-09-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  26. [01:17:51] <benward_> Would appreciate thoughts on using category to indicate the languages supported by a product (or person): http://microformats.org/wiki/category-brainstorming
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  29. [01:19:07] <tantek> benward - there shouldn't be a need for it
  30. [01:19:14] <tantek> in the case of content, "lang" handles it
  31. [01:19:37] <tantek> in the case of a link to content in another language, a rel="alternate" hreflang=".." handles it
  32. [01:20:10] <benward> OK, here's our use case:
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  35. [01:20:13] <tantek> so if e.g. an hReview is published in multiple languages
  36. [01:20:21] <benward> We have the Yahoo Application Platform.
  37. [01:20:22] <tantek> "consumable" as it were
  38. [01:20:38] <tantek> then links to those instances should be marked up with hreflang="..." rel="alternate"
  39. [01:20:43] <benward> So we have a directory of applications you can run on Yahoo (each app is a product -> hProduct)
  40. [01:20:45] <tantek> (per HTML4.01)
  41. [01:21:36] <benward> Each hProduct describes the app, and the properties of it.
  42. [01:21:45] <benward> The available/supported languages in question are some of those properties
  43. [01:21:45] <tantek> benward - best to document those real world examples on a "language-examples" page
  44. [01:22:21] <tantek> but what does that even mean? "available/supported" languages
  45. [01:22:36] <tantek> need links to real world examples to better understand
  46. [01:22:37] <benward> As in, an app may support English, French and German.
  47. [01:23:04] <benward> As documented o the category-brainstorming page: An app can be localized into multiple languages.
  48. [01:23:04] <tantek> what of the app? the UI? the content model?
  49. [01:23:07] <benward> The UI
  50. [01:23:16] <tantek> so this is *localizations* then
  51. [01:23:45] <tantek> for apps that may be localized in a number of different languages
  52. [01:23:55] <tantek> start localization-examples to document this
  53. [01:24:09] <tantek> I don't think jumping to "category-brainstorming" is the right thing to do here
  54. [01:24:32] <tantek> better to proceed with localization-examples, localization-formats, and then localization-brainstorming
  55. [01:24:54] <tantek> because you're coming up with a way of marking up the localization(s) that is/are being expressed
  56. [01:25:01] <tantek> and "category" is only one possible solution
  57. [01:25:16] <tantek> whereas I'd expect a category-brainstorming page to be about brainstorming how to markup a category
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  60. [01:28:00] <benward> Hmm. It's not a microformat for the app itself. It's about describing the app — which is already within the context of hProduct. Will add additional documentation.
  61. [01:28:36] <tantek> microformats are always about text content describing something
  62. [01:28:49] <tantek> sometimes the text content *is* the something, e.g. hAtom, hReview
  63. [01:29:00] <tantek> but often it is *about* something, e.g. hCard, hCalenar
  64. [01:29:04] <tantek> hCalendar even
  65. [01:29:30] <tantek> thus the distinction you make, not for the app itself, but for describing the app - is not a useful/relevant distinction - as the same reasoning will apply in both cases.
  66. [01:29:46] <tantek> localization as an aspect of hProduct may make sense yes
  67. [01:30:03] <tantek> thus perhaps add localization examples within that context to product-examples
  68. [01:30:06] <tantek> etc.
  69. [01:31:10] <benward> k
  70. [01:31:35] <tantek> benward - is this an example of the kind of thing you are talking about?
  71. [01:31:35] <tantek> http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/firefox/all.html
  72. [01:31:49] <tantek> product downloads listed by localization
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  74. [01:32:06] <tantek> note the heading text "Fully *Localized* Versions"
  75. [01:32:08] <tantek> :)
  76. [01:32:26] <benward> In so far as it's a page for a single product that lists languages, yes. But in this context, there's no concept of a per-language download link.
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  78. [01:32:48] <tantek> need URL for what you mean by "this context"
  79. [01:32:55] <benward> Don't have one yet. Internal.
  80. [01:33:08] <tantek> then it doesn't deserve a microformat - we've been down that road before
  81. [01:33:24] <benward> OK, http://apps.yahoo.com/-yqRaUQ7k/
  82. [01:33:27] <tantek> no public examples of content to be marked up, not important enough (80/20) to merit a microformat
  83. [01:33:51] <benward> Imagine that underneath the text description is some text that says ‘Supported Languages: English, Français, Deutsch’
  84. [01:35:25] <benward> Anyway. I'll expand document/examples when I can
  85. [01:35:53] <tantek> but again - that's ambiguous
  86. [01:36:02] <tantek> "Supported Languages" could mean UI or content or both
  87. [01:36:11] <tantek> if it's UI - it's *localization*
  88. [01:36:22] <tantek> if it's content - it's *internationalization*
  89. [01:36:36] <tantek> in either case is it "language" is imprecise/ambiguous
  90. [01:37:44] <benward> Supported Languages, in the context or advertizing an application, means localization.
  91. [01:38:30] <benward> It refers explicitly to a user preference for the language in which content (that is, page content, which includes YAP UI) will be displayed where available
  92. [01:39:09] <tantek> I understand the desire to mark this up with POSH (or even just plain categories/tagging), but I don't see what problem is being solved per se
  93. [01:39:26] <tantek> i.e. what data sharing does this enable that has an actual use case
  94. [01:39:52] <tantek> (and just "publishing" is not a use case, that's an example useful for research, but not for a problem statement)
  95. [01:40:51] <benward> That's somewhat fair. It would allow search engines to only display applications available in a certain language. Which this being Open Social, there's cross-network interop going to happen for apps like these.
  96. [01:41:27] <tantek> that's a much better problem / use-case statement
  97. [01:42:02] <benward> But yes, likelihood is that our ship date will involve POSH in the initial version anyway, just through production reality. But I'm keen to have documentation iteration here and in the open as early as possible, obviosuly
  98. [01:42:05] <benward> Anyway, gotta run home
  99. [01:42:11] <benward> Back online later.
  100. [01:42:39] <tantek> k
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  191. [09:51:22] <seengee> hi all, anyone familiar with google's implementation of microformats for their "rich snippets" ?
  192. [09:52:40] <seengee> especially interested in their rich snippets testing tool - http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets - which appears to not be following the relevant standards
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  194. [09:55:45] <adactio> seengee: It does have some issues. People have been giving feedback to the Google guys on the list so hopefully it will get updated soon.
  195. [10:02:19] <seengee> what i'm unsure of at the moment is whether the preview I am seeing is actually accurate to how my results will be shown because how its misinterpreting - for example - dtreviewed means that a user will see a timestamp instead of a nicely formatted date
  196. [10:02:25] <seengee> thanks btw
  197. [10:20:43] <seengee> adactio: which list are these issues being reported on? would be interested to make some additions
  198. [10:24:05] <adactio> seengee: you can find the emails in the list archive (check for activity in the past few days).
  199. [10:26:22] <seengee> adactio: thanks, i'll have a read through
  200. [10:28:45] <seengee> one other thing while i'm in here - is it possible to prevent accidental class clashes within a microformat, i can understand why namespacing is not used but especially when enhancing legacy code its not always possible to update css and html
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  204. [10:46:11] <adactio> seengee: the root class (e.g. vcard, vevent) effectively acts like a name space. Clashes can't occur with a class of, say, "url" inside an hcard and a class of "url" elsewhere on the same page.
  205. [10:52:32] <seengee> adactio: the problem we have seen is in using hproduct for example, we are using classes nested within the hproduct container that make semantic sense being called what they are called but are storing data that is not suitable for the microformat. this clash seems unavoidable to me
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  207. [10:54:44] <adactio> seengee: but where's the problem? You can use your own class names and the microformats class names.
  208. [10:56:15] <seengee> adaction: an example of this is a class "availability" which stores a system configurable label that represents what that specific site wants to call availability, we cannot rename the class and , although nested within the container , it is not storing data that the mircoformat would expect
  209. [10:57:10] <seengee> adactio: an example of this is a class "availability" which stores a system configurable label that represents what that specific site wants to call availability, we cannot rename the class and , although nested within the container , it is not storing data that the mircoformat would expect
  210. [10:57:48] <adactio> seengee: but why is that a problem>
  211. [10:57:49] <adactio> ?
  212. [10:58:27] <adactio> Are you saying that what you call availability matches to a different class name in the microformat?
  213. [10:59:35] <seengee> adactio: because the microformat parser thinks that the phrase stored within that class is a reference to the item's availability which it isnt, its just the label representing Availability
  214. [11:00:10] <adactio> ah, I see.
  215. [11:01:01] <adactio> I must admit, I don't know much about hproduct. It's a draft microformat so it could well be that the class names end up changing.
  216. [11:03:50] <seengee> I would assume though that this issue would exist within other microformats too, its not inconceivable that a class within a microformat container could need to be ignored by the parser, or is it?
  217. [11:07:31] <adactio> seengee: I think it's pretty unlikely but I guess it's certainly possible.
  218. [11:09:36] <seengee> adactio: i guess this is only going to be an issue with legacy code but this is the bread and butter for a lot of developers and it would be a shame if there were potential barriers to adoption for these people
  219. [11:10:17] <adactio> seengee: I would agree but I think it's an edge case. Yours is the first instance I've heard.
  220. [11:11:53] <seengee> adactio: my mum always said i was "unique"
  221. [11:12:02] <adactio> :-)
  222. [11:14:16] <seengee> as much as it is an edge case, would you say there's any value in me pursuing this?
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  258. [15:41:11] <adactio> Quick question for anyone...
  259. [15:41:21] <adactio> Are "fuzzy" dates valid in hResume?
  260. [15:41:32] <adactio> e.g. 2009-09 rather than 2009-09-01
  261. [15:41:38] <adactio> for work history/experience?
  262. [15:42:36] <gsnedders> It uses hCalendar, so all ISO 8601 should be fine
  263. [15:42:57] <gsnedders> (Which I guess technically allows even 21, just giving century)
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  273. [16:23:55] <hober> although "Microformats /should/ use RFC 3339." -- /wiki/iso-8601
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  277. [16:45:17] <tobyink> gsnedders, in ISO 8601 terms, the 21st century is "20".
  278. [16:45:25] * tobyink (n=tai@77.89.160.246) has left #microformats
  279. [16:50:24] <gsnedders> Yeah, right, duh
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  281. [16:52:14] * gsnedders typed "20" then realized, wait, this is the 21st cent., and changed it to 21, even though he knew what ISO 8601 said (which is why he got it right before)
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