IRC Log for #openid on 2007-04-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  43. [10:54:18] <rgl> mooo
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  51. [11:37:24] <punter> Is anyone here involved in making the openid spec?
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  93. [23:14:15] <pisi> Hi. Without digging the docs or hacking something together: If the openid provider always knows without any information from the client who the client is and what kind of openid url should he/she use, can I have only a simple 'log in' link for those users ?
  94. [23:14:43] <pisi> something like 'click here to log in via service X or specify any other openid here: [ ] and client login' ?
  95. [23:15:10] <pisi> click login -> client login
  96. [23:15:21] <pisi> (vice versa, it's late already)
  97. [23:17:14] <GabeW> try restating your question with the standard terms: OP, RP, and browser ;)
  98. [23:17:23] <GabeW> client is ambiguous
  99. [23:17:25] <GabeW> ;)
  100. [23:19:03] <gregh_> BP? Browsing Party? :)
  101. [23:19:12] <GabeW> he
  102. [23:21:07] <pisi> umm. Anyway. I want to have a user experience like I described: 'Click here to log in with OP X or specify any openid and log in' The OP in question knows how to figure out an OpenID for the request without asking the user (as the request would go over HTTPS and would use client certificates that contain the user identity)
  103. [23:21:27] <GabeW> the RP doesn't get to pick the OP
  104. [23:21:33] <GabeW> the user picks the OP
  105. [23:21:43] <GabeW> and tells the RP (via dereferencing their OpenID URI/XRI)
  106. [23:22:57] <pisi> I'm not that fluent in openid jargon. But I'd like to avoid any user input.
  107. [23:23:10] <GabeW> the user has to enter their openid
  108. [23:23:11] <GabeW> to the RP
  109. [23:23:17] <GabeW> thats the way it works
  110. [23:23:21] <pisi> The idea here is that you either press a button OR enter any openid
  111. [23:23:37] <GabeW> how would the user identify themselves in pressing a button?
  112. [23:23:45] <chowells79> Well, if you're willing to supply a browser extension which will cause the browser to enter it for the user...
  113. [23:24:05] <GabeW> and get the RPs of the world to agree to some sort of standard for a field to enter your openid in
  114. [23:24:07] <chowells79> Sxip has browser extensions that try to do that.
  115. [23:24:15] <GabeW> sxipper
  116. [23:24:19] <chowells79> Yep
  117. [23:24:27] <GabeW> (for the logs)
  118. [23:25:25] <pisi> GabeW: I was hoping there would be a way to say 'I don't really know my openid right now but i know that this provider can figure it out'
  119. [23:25:32] <GabeW> oh
  120. [23:25:33] <GabeW> hmm
  121. [23:26:03] <chowells79> Well, that's supposed to be in OpenID 2
  122. [23:26:07] <GabeW> not really - but there are provisions to provide the identifier of only the OP
  123. [23:26:11] <chowells79> I don't know if it got much testing.
  124. [23:26:17] <GabeW> chowells79: yes, but you are still providing an identifier
  125. [23:26:22] <GabeW> (of the OP, in that case)
  126. [23:27:07] <pisi> chowells79: can you point me to some reading and some python code maybe ?
  127. [23:27:08] <chowells79> That sounds to me like saying "but i know that this provider can figure it out"
  128. [23:27:34] <GabeW> python, YAY!
  129. [23:27:40] <GabeW> yah, chowells79 and crew have written python
  130. [23:27:42] <GabeW> libs
  131. [23:27:57] <chowells79> It's been a while since I've gone through the lib code. I'm assuming it's in there somewhere.
  132. [23:27:57] <GabeW> chowells79: yes, it does, but I'm not sure how thats a "button press"
  133. [23:28:08] <GabeW> you guys just released 2.0.0 code, right?
  134. [23:28:13] <chowells79> Yep
  135. [23:28:24] <GabeW> rightoues
  136. [23:28:26] <chowells79> http://www.openidenabled.com/openid/libraries/python/python-openid-2-0-0-rc-1
  137. [23:28:26] <GabeW> righteous
  138. [23:28:33] <chowells79> Looks like it's officially RC status..
  139. [23:29:08] <pisi> (For the record: I'm talking about https://ideelabor.ee/openid and national eID that automagically encodes the RealIdentity (not just some random url) of every request to the SSL site into the certificate
  140. [23:29:16] <GabeW> wow
  141. [23:30:03] <pisi> So my idea is to bring people closer to openid, with security. Anything extra one would have to do would be a no go at this stage as an average person just doesn't understand the technology
  142. [23:30:23] <chowells79> People are still used to entering *something* in a text box.
  143. [23:30:36] <pisi> they know their pin1 and want to enter the pin1 when they register to whateverforum or whateversite. And then later on they want to log back on
  144. [23:30:47] <pisi> chowells79: not really. with eID you don't need it.
  145. [23:31:07] <pisi> you just click a button like this one: http://digidoc.sk.ee/entry_splash.html
  146. [23:31:07] <chowells79> Err... Then everyone has to install something.
  147. [23:31:23] <pisi> chowells79: that's out of the scope of openid problem.
  148. [23:32:00] <chowells79> I suppose so.
  149. [23:33:34] <chowells79> But... What you're asking is beyond the basic ability of a browser.
  150. [23:33:47] <pisi> smart cards ?
  151. [23:34:05] <chowells79> Unless the smart card contains a custom browser... No help.
  152. [23:34:18] <pisi> I don't really get you now..
  153. [23:34:28] <pisi> smart cards don't need browsers.
  154. [23:34:51] <chowells79> Browsers, without some extra software, just don't automatically know that they need to put a special value into some form element and automatically submit it.
  155. [23:35:36] <chowells79> When you come across a web site that contains an openid login field, that's what the browser will have to do, in your scenario.
  156. [23:36:14] <pisi> well, I was hoping that the openid infrastructure can be directed to say instead of 'dereference this url and talk to that server' 'talk to that server and get the openid' in a reply of 'successfully authenticated as XXX'
  157. [23:36:40] <chowells79> It can.
  158. [23:36:45] <chowells79> But that's not what I'm talking about.
  159. [23:37:25] <chowells79> I'm talking about, when you go to http://www.jyte.com/ and click "sign in with OpenID"...
  160. [23:37:39] <chowells79> It gives you a big text box, and a submit button.
  161. [23:37:55] <chowells79> If you're not willing to type *something* into that box, you need the browser to do it for you.
  162. [23:38:06] <chowells79> And that's not something browsers do, without extensions.
  163. [23:38:36] <pisi> Maybe you've misunderstood me then. If a site wants to use the eID generated openid, it will include a link (besides a casual openid entry field, like on jyte.com) AND in small letters below it (or press this link to talk to http://ideelabor.ee/openid that will provide your openid automagically)
  164. [23:39:12] <pisi> why so? because everybody in Estonia automatically has an URL already.
  165. [23:39:21] <pisi> it is a mailto: url but still an URL.
  166. [23:39:39] <chowells79> Well, if you think the subset of openID-enabled sites that eID users will care about will all implement that solution...
  167. [23:39:43] <chowells79> (I don't, by the way)
  168. [23:39:49] <pisi> every request done with eID contains that URL.
  169. [23:39:51] <chowells79> It can be done with OpenID 2
  170. [23:40:16] <pisi> chowells79: can you point me to some reading please ?
  171. [23:40:46] <chowells79> Give me a couple minuutes...
  172. [23:40:54] <pisi> chowells79: I bet it might be hard to believe that almost every site wants security and not all can use SSL to get rid of passwords.
  173. [23:41:09] <pisi> and as 90% of Estonians have eID cards..
  174. [23:41:57] <chowells79> I'm just saying... You're restricting this to working only with eID sites. And if that's the case, why bother with OpenID?
  175. [23:42:03] <pisi> I guess we still rule as biggest percentual smartcard rollout. no passwords, no usernames either (if you don't want) just pure security and a PIN.
  176. [23:42:17] <GabeW> you should be rolling out an OP with smartcards
  177. [23:42:28] <GabeW> the problem you have is that you don't want your users to have to know about OpenID
  178. [23:42:35] <GabeW> but you want them to take advantage of the openid network of RPs
  179. [23:42:46] <pisi> those who want to know about it already know or will know
  180. [23:42:50] <pisi> those who don't ...
  181. [23:43:02] <GabeW> i understand what you are trying to do pisi
  182. [23:43:27] <pisi> basically the key issue here is that openid is THE technology currently that allows one important thing: the ability to jump onto the eID wagon without having to have a spare IP/port pair to run your ssl host.
  183. [23:43:56] <GabeW> yah, so I get it
  184. [23:43:59] <pisi> you still get the 'just have to remember my pin' usability AND you get the new shiny fancy openid
  185. [23:44:11] <pisi> what opens up a heap of other possibilities
  186. [23:44:17] <GabeW> i don't have a quick answer
  187. [23:44:21] <GabeW> but its an interesting issue
  188. [23:44:22] <chowells79> Ok... Here's some documentation on the identifier_select feature: http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0-11.html
  189. [23:44:29] <chowells79> Well, that's the full OpenID 2 spec
  190. [23:44:42] <chowells79> But search for the text "identifier_select"
  191. [23:44:48] <GabeW> in some sense, the choice of openid provider doesn't matter - so long as they know how to interact with the smart card, right?
  192. [23:45:33] <chowells79> Actually, come to think of it.. That won't work with mailto: urls, as they can't be resolved to content that provides proof of ownership.
  193. [23:45:39] <pisi> GabeW: that's not that simple. smart card interaction, in the best case, is as simple as reading SSL_CLIENT_CERT in your cgi program
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  195. [23:45:46] <pisi> PKI is about infrastructure mostly
  196. [23:45:57] <GabeW> i gotta run - but this is interesting
  197. [23:46:04] <GabeW> this channel is logged
  198. [23:46:30] <pisi> http://ideelabor.ee/opensource/wiki/OpenID (Estonian only, sorry)
  199. [23:46:55] <chowells79> Sorry, I'm pitifully monolingual (aka, American).
  200. [23:47:02] <GabeW> chowells79++
  201. [23:47:08] <pisi> my example: I automagically get an e-mail address from the state for official notices and stuff like that: martin.paljak@eesti.ee
  202. [23:47:43] <pisi> http://ideelabor.ee/openid/<put the mailto url here, or if you don't want mailto put foaf-style mbox_sha1sum here)
  203. [23:47:50] <chowells79> Oh, cool.
  204. [23:47:53] <chowells79> Then it will work.
  205. [23:47:59] <pisi> this way you get anonymous openids
  206. [23:48:25] <pisi> anonymous for random sites. openid provider with SSL always knows who you REALLY are and what's your mailto: URL
  207. [23:48:46] <chowells79> Assuming the ID url is, in fact something like http://ideelabor.ee/openid/mailto:martin.paljak@eesti.ee
  208. [23:48:49] <pisi> you can (not yet, TBD) select the profile used for a specific site.
  209. [23:49:01] <pisi> yes, that's me
  210. [23:49:08] <chowells79> (Not that the user ever *knows* that they have that url, but it's what's reported)
  211. [23:49:08] <_keturn> pisi: oh, hey there. Thanks for your message the other day. Sounds like you're working on some cool stuff.
  212. [23:49:13] <pisi> or, if you check martin.paljak.pri.ee you get the one I use in real life currently
  213. [23:49:26] <chowells79> Oh, that resolves?
  214. [23:49:39] <pisi> chowells79: sure it does.
  215. [23:49:52] <chowells79> Do all eIDs resolve in the same way?
  216. [23:50:06] <pisi> chowells79: all 1000000 or so
  217. [23:50:13] <chowells79> That's a very cool system.
  218. [23:50:23] <pisi> I bet it is
  219. [23:50:36] <chowells79> Were you involved in the development at all, or just coming in to do the openid part?
  220. [23:51:06] <pisi> I'm pretty deeply involved with estonian eID. and opensc-project.org
  221. [23:51:19] <chowells79> Cool. Then I can say "nice job" to you. :)
  222. [23:51:28] <GabeW> oooh
  223. [23:51:31] <GabeW> opensc-project.org
  224. [23:51:48] <GabeW> nice
  225. [23:52:08] <pisi> I also provide software for 3 platforms (windows/firefox, mac, linux-whateverx) whereas current official rollout is only for windows.
  226. [23:52:14] <chowells79> So, for sites that are willing to put in an extra "log in with eID" link, you can have that utilize OpenID relatively transparently.
  227. [23:52:15] <GabeW> i used to be at visa and smartcards is/are/were all the rage
  228. [23:52:30] <pisi> (software for eID and browser integration, pkcs11 mostly and some stuff on apple as well)
  229. [23:52:49] <pisi> chowells79: all sites in Estonia want to have 'log in with eID'
  230. [23:53:29] <pisi> and most sites don't have any other means but openid - as random joe just doesn't have ssl capabilities
  231. [23:53:41] <chowells79> If those sites support openid fully, it's trivial to add that link.
  232. [23:54:01] <chowells79> That link is nothing more than a shortcut to perform a particular openid request.
  233. [23:54:04] <pisi> and random joe should not even get my full identity - like gender, name etc
  234. [23:54:09] <pisi> ok.
  235. [23:54:31] <chowells79> Look into the identifier_select stuff.
  236. [23:54:47] <pisi> chowells79: now, the fun part for openid crowd - By providing example code, all sites enabling eID login will naturally support whatever openid available :)
  237. [23:54:50] <chowells79> It's basically a way to tell an OP that it may choose the identifier that gets returned.
  238. [23:55:06] <chowells79> Which is exactly what you want.
  239. [23:56:23] <pisi> If all goes well and openid gets some more traction it won't be impossible to make estonia into an 'openid contry' where everybody would get something like 'eesti.ee/id/martin.paljak'
  240. [23:57:16] <chowells79> Wow. My browser setting on this computer don't agree with opensc-project.org. :)
  241. [23:57:33] <pisi> chowells79: ?
  242. [23:57:36] <chowells79> The latest news box overflows, and gets clipped.
  243. [23:57:50] <chowells79> I think it's something to do with my default font sizes and screen resolution.
  244. [23:58:13] <pisi> yeah. what ar you using ? I guess obody has the time or interest to deal with website.
  245. [23:58:21] <chowells79> I'm using firefox..
  246. [23:58:27] <chowells79> Well, Iceweasel.
  247. [23:58:38] <chowells79> Bah, stupid debian/mozilla disagreement
  248. [23:59:11] <chowells79> My display resolution is really high, so I have default font sizes up somewhat to account for that.
  249. [23:59:12] <pisi> I remember it had some ugly elements with safari/20" whereas it looks nice on smaller screens
  250. [23:59:38] <chowells79> I bet the box is sized in pixels, or something.
  251. [23:59:45] <chowells79> So it overflows because my fonts are bigger.

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