IRC Log for #openid on 2007-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:19] <pisi> probly. We need a new release more than we need a website fixup :P
  2. [00:00:29] <chowells79> Yeah, it's not important, especially. :)
  3. [00:01:27] <chowells79> Anyway, in summary: After understanding your goal, I'm pretty sure it's technically feasible. And I look forward to seeing it done. :)
  4. [00:01:46] <pisi> ok, It seems really straightforward as well (searching the doc for the keyword)
  5. [00:02:04] <chowells79> It should be.. But I'm not sure it's been well-tested.
  6. [00:02:05] <pisi> it's 3am so it has to wait until... next week or so.
  7. [00:02:18] <pisi> somebody has to do it anyway. might aswell be me.
  8. [00:02:30] <pisi> (testing)
  9. [00:02:32] <chowells79> Hehe. Hope it goes well for you, when you get around to it. :)
  10. [00:02:58] <pisi> Now if there was a nice and ReallyWorking WSGI/openid middleware as well.. Managed to get authkit working after some hacking.
  11. [00:03:08] <pisi> paste.auth is broken (last time i checked)
  12. [00:03:35] <chowells79> Hmm. OpenID doesn't seem to fit into a lot of existing auth frameworks.. The two-part request thing isn't something most of them were designed for.
  13. [00:03:46] <chowells79> err, rather, two-request thing
  14. [00:04:37] <chowells79> Also, using URLs as identifiers (even internally) isn't something a lot of apps are capable of.
  15. [00:04:42] <pisi> paste.auth.openid is just built for a very old version of openid libs. authkit is generally greenish and the code path is not 100% clear for me. But It functioned.
  16. [00:04:48] <pisi> that's the biggest problem i guess.
  17. [00:05:40] <pisi> that's like smart cards and pinpad readers - most apps are built with 'well, if we do RSA then yes we support smart cards - instead of asking a key file and a password we ask for a pin and then send it to some libraries to do the work'
  18. [00:05:54] <pisi> hardcoded understandig that 'identity this is a username and password pair'
  19. [00:07:54] <pisi> chowells79: I'd like to see what i could do with simple registration.
  20. [00:08:50] <chowells79> I can certainly see how that will fit in with your goals, especially the "per-site profile" portion of them.
  21. [00:09:05] <pisi> I think the first person to actually use openid in Estonia was Jaanus from skype (http://www.jaanuskase.com/en/2006/12/now_using_openid_for_commenter.html, check some comments about my experiments)
  22. [00:09:15] <chowells79> It should be pretty simple, too. It was designed to be. We even put "simple" in the name. :)
  23. [00:09:16] * aconbere_ (n=aconbere@mail.geonerco.com) Quit ("Lost terminal")
  24. [00:09:17] <pisi> and how it already then managed to pick up my foaf profile and my nickname from there.
  25. [00:10:42] <chowells79> From LJ, in particular?
  26. [00:11:13] <pisi> I have solved the webapps problem by having a separate 'REMOTE_IDENTITY_URL' environment variable and a bunch of mappers that either generate something uniq and hard coded (like a hash) or fetch a REMOTE_USER that suits for a given application
  27. [00:11:57] <pisi> chowells79: LJ what ? No. His blog picked up my foaf profile from my openid url (martin.paljak.pri.ee) and used the nickname from my foaf profile as my name for the comment
  28. [00:12:09] <chowells79> Oh.. I see.
  29. [00:12:10] <pisi> or was it my real name, can't remember
  30. [00:12:18] <pisi> and that was not intentional.
  31. [00:12:23] <pisi> it just happened to work like this.
  32. [00:15:56] <chowells79> Indeed. You can use public information at the URL, either from foaf, xfn, or some other microformat, or you can use simple registration (or in the hopefully near future, attribute exchange) to collect additional information, possibly beyond what people are willing to publish publically on their pages.
  33. [00:16:53] <pisi> and if you have not heard about Estonian e-voting, be sure to check this: http://www.jaanuskase.com/en/2007/02/evoting_in_estonias_2007_parli.html
  34. [00:17:30] <pisi> (well, don't take our comments as objective ones, we've both worked for the eID project... have to do some PR as well ;)
  35. [00:17:47] <chowells79> So, that uses eID for authN and authZ?
  36. [00:18:38] <pisi> authN and Z? please explain ?
  37. [00:18:43] <chowells79> Sorry
  38. [00:19:09] <chowells79> abbreviations for authentication and authorization
  39. [00:19:21] <chowells79> Since just saying "auth" is ambiguous
  40. [00:19:52] <chowells79> And, indeed, the blog post confirms that it does.
  41. [00:20:31] <pisi> eID is for *authentication only* (well, the biggest job of eID is authentication, authorization depends on whatever system you're using)
  42. [00:21:24] <chowells79> Ah.. I see. The fact that it's a government system means that authorization is done against databases the government has.
  43. [00:22:54] <pisi> or non-govt.
  44. [00:23:09] <chowells79> Err. Yes. I was talking about the e-voting system in particular, there.
  45. [00:23:29] <chowells79> More generically, of course, authZ is done against the databases of whoever runs the service.
  46. [00:23:36] <pisi> yup. depends on elections (local authorities, parliament, EU etc)
  47. [00:23:44] <pisi> yes.
  48. [00:25:08] <chowells79> Hmm. Having watched all the horrible mistakes my country's made with various attempts at just getting electronic voting machines to work, I am curious about the backend on that system.
  49. [00:25:50] <pisi> www.vvk.ee/elektr
  50. [00:26:13] <pisi> http://www.vvk.ee/elektr/docs/Yldkirjeldus-eng.pdf
  51. [00:26:18] <pisi> pretty technical.
  52. [00:26:19] <chowells79> ah, thanks.
  53. [00:28:02] <pisi> ok, time to sleep. until next time. I'll come back begging for help if the identifier_select thing happens to fail..
  54. [00:28:20] <pisi> thanks for hints!
  55. [00:28:31] <chowells79> ok. Hope to see it working soon. :)
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  87. [09:07:12] <marcusramberg> gah
  88. [09:07:19] <marcusramberg> still getting support mails from claimid users :-/
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  93. [10:10:22] <kwijibo> would an openID server know when a web app is accessing it to create a new account?
  94. [10:53:16] <j3h> It'd be easy to define an extension to tell the OpenID provider if this request would result in account creation. Why would it need to know?
  95. [10:54:45] <kwijibo> I was just thinking it'd be nice to be able to have an openid server that could list (using FOAF for example) the different account profiles created under that user's uri
  96. [10:56:18] <kwijibo> so I sign up to your app, and then my openid page can automatically update to say that I have an account with your app at this uri
  97. [10:57:28] <kwijibo> it could be used by apps to share user profile data, and for humans to remember what apps they have an account with
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  101. [11:40:12] <johill> "openid2.provider" and "openid.server" may appear in the same "rel" attribute.
  102. [11:40:42] <johill> does that mean I should put rel="openid.server openid2.provider"?
  103. [11:41:35] <johill> oh, found the example, n/m
  104. [11:45:15] <johill> uh
  105. [11:45:21] <johill> "the URL is retrieved and HTML-Based discovery (HTML-Based Discovery) SHALL be attempted."
  106. [11:45:24] <johill> and later
  107. [11:45:29] <johill> "HTML-Based discovery MUST be supported by Relying Parties."
  108. [12:23:55] <pisi> Hi. again. Question. How should one communicate different authentication methods to RP? If there are several (all strong enough) methods but I'd like to warn the RP 'We guarantee security, but please keep in mind that this given transaction used authentication method XXX isntead of ZZZ' ? Attribute exchange ?
  109. [12:25:02] <j3h> there's an extension being defined called the Assertion Quality Extension that is supposed to help communicate that information
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  116. [13:56:43] <dUstBYTeR> Hi to all, after doing some debugging of my PHP-Server 1.1 installation, i have come up with the following error DB Error: extension not found any ideas?
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  126. [18:21:13] <pisi> Hi. I'm lost. If I want to feed a specific OP server url together with identifier_select to a Consumer instance I shoudl be sugin beginWithoutDiscovery, right ?
  127. [18:21:39] <pisi> But I'm not sure what should give me the service instance that method requires.
  128. [18:22:34] * lucasvo (n=lucasvo@wservices.ch) has joined #openid
  129. [18:23:44] <lucasvo> how can I use openid to prepopulate fields such as email, nickname, realname etc.?
  130. [18:24:02] <pisi> lucasvo: simple registration should do it.
  131. [18:24:15] <lucasvo> I have managed to implement the basic implementation with the python api for django
  132. [18:24:21] <lucasvo> (version 1.2)
  133. [18:24:34] <lucasvo> pisi: I am talking about the consumer
  134. [18:24:36] <pisi> lucasvo: tahe the latest rc, it has an example
  135. [18:24:58] <pisi> 2.0 has a very clean example about simple registration in the django context
  136. [18:25:03] <lucasvo> pisi: is it a lot different than 1.2?
  137. [18:25:20] <pisi> nope.
  138. [18:25:58] <lucasvo> thanks
  139. [18:28:45] <lucasvo> what is the immediate option?
  140. [18:29:34] <_keturn> pisi: I think the normal begin method will work okay
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  142. [18:30:14] <chowells79> lucasvo, the immediate option uses openid immediate mode.
  143. [18:30:27] <lucasvo> chowells79: what is this?
  144. [18:30:45] <_keturn> I mean, I guess if you know the server endpoint and you want to skip a discovery request, you could use beginWithoutDiscovery ...
  145. [18:30:56] <chowells79> It tells the OP to return an answer without interacting with the user.
  146. [18:31:25] <pisi> _keturn: yes, but I don't know how to generate the right service object to pass to the beginWithoutDiiscovery
  147. [18:31:41] <lucasvo> chowells79: do you suggest to use it?
  148. [18:31:46] <lucasvo> for a blog
  149. [18:31:51] <chowells79> In general, no.
  150. [18:31:53] <pisi> something from openid.consumer.discover i assume.
  151. [18:32:09] <chowells79> You should only use immediate mode if you have a reason to.
  152. [18:32:21] <lucasvo> pisi: the example calls SRegRequest but I can't find this in the docs
  153. [18:34:34] <_keturn> pisi: the general way to do it is to make sure the OP serves XRDS with what the 2.0 spec terms an "OP Identifier Element"
  154. [18:34:56] <_keturn> and then use the normal begin method
  155. [18:36:36] <_keturn> if you're sure that you never need to do discovery because the endpoint URL will never change, you could build a discover.OpenIDServiceEndpoint
  156. [18:37:44] <pisi> yup, figured it out now.
  157. [18:37:48] <lucasvo> is the registration function implemented in the library version 1.2?
  158. [18:37:57] <_keturn> however, your OP should publish that discovery information anyway, so people can still use it that way even on RPs that don't have your endpoint built-in
  159. [18:38:44] <_keturn> lucasvo: not explicitly like it is in the 2.0. you have to add the parameters to the request, there's not a class that does it for you.
  160. [18:40:06] <lucasvo> when will 2.0 be released?
  161. [18:41:36] <_keturn> as soon as either Johnny or I (or someone else) get around to testing with each others' code so that I know we actually have compatible implementations of "2.0" ;-)
  162. [18:41:38] <pisi> _keturn: I think the endpoint should be built in.
  163. [18:42:26] <_keturn> pisi: that probably makes sense for you in many cases
  164. [18:42:34] <pisi> I managed to make the consumer django demo redirect with the identifier_select url after i press the button.
  165. [18:42:49] <pisi> what is a good start. Especially over gprs.
  166. [18:47:55] <lucasvo> damn it. I just worked a couple of hours to understand and implement 1.2 and now there's already 2.0 on the way...
  167. [18:48:44] <pisi> IMHO the difference is subtle
  168. [18:49:14] <_keturn> particularly as a library user, there are _very_ few differences
  169. [18:49:42] <_keturn> you can't _quite_ just drop in the new library, but it's pretty close
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  171. [18:57:54] <pisi> nice. Seems to work :)
  172. [18:58:29] <pisi> At least current code answers This request uses IdP-driven identifier selection.You must supply an identifier in the response. what means it understand the situation.
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  174. [18:59:34] <pisi> When could the php library be available ? python is nice but the few real life users I could get to this solution all use php on the web frontend
  175. [19:01:33] <_keturn> there's 2.0rc2 for php already, I think
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  177. [19:02:48] * rgl waves
  178. [19:03:47] <pisi> OK. Last time I checked it was older version. Or maybe I was not paying enough attention.
  179. [19:05:12] <pisi> No matching endpoint found after discovering https://ideelabor.ee/openid/mailto:martin.paljak@eesti.ee What does thi error mean ?
  180. [19:05:24] <pisi> (from the django demo consumer)
  181. [19:08:07] <_keturn> means that it did discovery on that identifier and it decided the OP that sent the message wasn't authoratative for it
  182. [19:08:49] <_keturn> make sure that identifier publishes a v2 server endpoint
  183. [19:13:19] <pisi> nice nice nice. green picture and my nickname is pisi.
  184. [19:14:10] <pisi> thanks for a nice piece of software :)
  185. [19:15:21] <pisi> I'll polish and document and try to implement a demo in php ad after that I can guarantee a bunch of new openid enabled services in Estonia.
  186. [19:16:22] <pisi> Not bad for a few nights. I thought last autumn about implementig CAS or something similar but I'm pretty confident that with all the buzz openid is generating it is much more vital.
  187. [19:18:31] <pisi> http://www.openidenabled.com/openid/libraries/php/ still lists 1.2.2
  188. [19:20:28] <chowells79> Hmm.
  189. [19:20:32] <chowells79> Seems plone wasn't updated
  190. [19:20:58] <chowells79> But... http://www.openidenabled.com/resources/downloads/php-openid/PHP-openid-2.0.0-rc2.tar.gz
  191. [19:30:35] <pisi> What is the reasoning behind the javascript redirect and a normal redirect and different openid versions ? Whatever the case, using a javascript redirect doesn't look nice
  192. [19:32:52] <chowells79> Mainly that the length of an HTTP get is limited, and extensions like Attribute Exchange can easily want to transmit more data than that.
  193. [19:37:28] <pisi> ok, thanks again. Enjoy the weekend!
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  199. [20:18:22] <ffm> How do I set up my site for openid?
  200. [20:18:26] <ffm> I want to be my own provider.
  201. [20:24:55] <gregh_> see http://openid.net/wiki/index.php/Run_your_own_identity_server
  202. [20:25:19] <ffm> Thanks.
  203. [20:26:51] <ianloic> ffm, delegating to an existing provider is an easy alternative
  204. [20:27:10] <ianloic> ffm, I just use my livejournal account, but I can use my vanity domain as my openid
  205. [20:29:50] <ffm> So, How do I setup id.ffman.info to be my id?
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  207. [20:50:50] <ffm> Can I set up a redirect?
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  210. [20:57:13] <trel1023> you just need delegation
  211. [20:57:16] <trel1023> ffm:
  212. [20:58:08] <trel1023> http://simonwillison.net/2006/Dec/19/openid/
  213. [21:01:03] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  214. [21:01:47] <ffm> thx
  215. [21:02:33] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) has joined #openid
  216. [21:03:22] * mmealling (n=michael@c-69-180-6-105.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #openid
  217. [21:25:14] <mmealling> I can't imagine this rule actually existing, but is there any reason why something other than a human being could not have an openid?
  218. [21:29:00] <_keturn> not really, no. Market research reports that at least thirty-seven percent of all OpenIDs are actually owned by raccoons.
  219. [21:30:09] <PatF> lol
  220. [21:30:31] <PatF> that explains so much
  221. [21:31:50] <mmealling> heh.... cool.... back when I was playing with the PIN idea we bifurcated the namespace between people and organizations/entities but I soon figured that putting the difference in the namespace was silly....
  222. [21:33:25] <mmealling> anyone from verisign here?
  223. [21:37:23] <_keturn> I don't frequently see verisign folk here, no.
  224. [21:38:16] <mmealling> I figured with their PIP project that someone on that team would be here..... at least em0ry...
  225. [21:39:18] <_keturn> there are sometimes EastMedia guys around, they're the ones who coded most of PIP
  226. [21:40:06] * ffm (n=805778@wikipedia/firefoxman) has left #openid
  227. [21:47:10] * pisi (n=pisi@isabel.offline.ee) has joined #openid
  228. [21:50:20] <GabeW> mmealling: I don't think em0ry has anything to do with that stuff
  229. [21:50:23] <GabeW> i asked him about it
  230. [21:50:56] <GabeW> the problem with machines having openid's is that they can't defeat botbouncer
  231. [21:51:05] <GabeW> machines are indistinguishable from bots
  232. [21:51:10] <GabeW> ;-)
  233. [21:52:53] <pisi> I need domxml for the php opend library. I run php 4.3.10 and php.net suggests to get it from pecl. pecl download link tells 'File Not Found ..'
  234. [21:56:32] * punter (n=punter@ipa234.33.91.tellas.gr) Quit ()
  235. [21:57:27] <mmealling> Gabe, true, but over time you may end up automating human actions which will require authentication.... I'm mostly thinking of lots of B2B activity where its systems talking to systems.... having openid for people running along side something different for collections of humans and processes will get tedious...
  236. [21:57:44] <GabeW> sure
  237. [21:58:00] * Brylie (n=brylie@CPE-75-81-108-73.kc.res.rr.com) Quit ("Bye.")
  238. [21:58:11] <GabeW> i'm just pointing out that the assumption being made now by botbouncer, jyte, etc is that machines-as-clients are bad actors
  239. [21:58:27] <GabeW> someone needs to stand up for the rights of machines, dammit!
  240. [22:00:06] <mmealling> I hope so becuase I assume we'll keep on bluring the line enough that it'll be hard to tell the difference.... I'd hate for half of my brain to not be able to participate in something becuase it was classified as a 'machine'.
  241. [22:00:08] <mmealling> ;-)
  242. [22:01:14] <GabeW> mmealling: your cybernetic secret is safe with me (and google, which indexes the archives of this channel)
  243. [22:20:50] * fajro (n=fajro@OL104-24.fibertel.com.ar) has joined #openid
  244. [22:35:39] * Prometheus^ (n=Promethe@cs181170022.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  245. [23:09:40] * hundleyj (n=hundleyj@128-193-136-231.public.oregonstate.edu) has joined #openid
  246. [23:23:56] * j3h (n=j3h@c-71-236-228-127.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  247. [23:27:56] * epeus (i=KevinMar@nat/google/x-8173a758f94fd5cd) has joined #openid
  248. [23:28:31] * [e]zZz is now known as elliottcable
  249. [23:31:47] * Cody` (n=Cody@74-129-165-175.dhcp.insightbb.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  250. [23:45:15] * hundleyj (n=hundleyj@128-193-136-231.public.oregonstate.edu) Quit ("Leaving")
  251. [23:51:57] * PatF (i=Patrick@nat/novell/x-2df1765e90a562f6) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

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