IRC Log for #openid on 2008-03-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  29. [05:26:44] <FAJALOU4197> but flaccid we obviously can't talk civilly,
  30. [05:26:48] <FAJALOU4197> i'll pray for you flaccid
  31. [05:27:20] <FAJALOU4197> b/c i know you're there.
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  33. [05:28:03] <flaccid> lol
  34. [05:28:20] <flaccid> sweet maybe i'll get a million dollars from god
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  69. [13:15:29] <jibot> TedThibodeauJr is a Technology Evangelist from http://www.openlinksw.com/ and a Troublemaker from Way Back
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  71. [13:45:25] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> One account, multiple openids is a bad idea.
  72. [13:46:20] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> It makes implementation less straightforward, creating a more intimidating process for developers.
  73. [13:47:41] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Email suffers from nearly the exact same issues and sites rarely implement more than one email address per account there.
  74. [13:47:56] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Email can be a fallback in the event of a lost url.
  75. [13:48:40] <Makenshi> I disagree. Users may have multiple OpenIDs; at the very least they might want to change their OpenID.
  76. [13:49:03] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Sure, do that like you'd change an email address.
  77. [13:49:11] <Makenshi> It is covered in Plaxo's implementation recipe anyway, it's not difficult to implement.
  78. [13:50:20] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Yes it is. It's a many to one where a column in a table used to be.
  79. [13:50:21] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> There's already enough barriers to uptake, we don't need more, even if they are small.
  80. [13:50:54] <Makenshi> That's not difficult at all!
  81. [13:53:09] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Debatable, it is less straightforward.
  82. [13:53:43] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> You are asking people who don't care as much as we do to swallow a lot at once.
  83. [13:54:35] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Additionally, I'm not sure it makes sense. Part of the glory of openid is that you can use one id everywhere ... how does multiple ids on one account fit in there?
  84. [13:56:05] <Makenshi> The reason is if one provider fails you can still use the other. I don't consider email as a fallback acceptable.
  85. [13:56:28] <Makenshi> At present a lot of consumers do not even associate email addresses with openid accounts.
  86. [13:58:04] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Delegation + XRDS can solve the fallback problem.
  87. [13:58:50] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> I think it is great that an email isn't associated with openid accounts. I mainly use email as a metaphor.
  88. [14:01:39] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> I guess what mainly bugs me is that a url is supposed to reflect an identity ... "me", "me at work".
  89. [14:02:00] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Don't mix those, assert who you are and stick with it.
  90. [14:03:12] <Makenshi> That is not the reason I use multiple OpenIDs. As I said.. I /do/ delegate one of my OpenID urls with XRDS, but that isn't much help when the provider goes down.
  91. [14:03:36] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> You can delegate to multiple providers.
  92. [14:03:50] <Makenshi> And when your delegation host goes down?
  93. [14:04:44] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Get a new delegation host.
  94. [14:04:45] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Delegation is easy enough to have super high uptime.
  95. [14:05:11] <Makenshi> Even the most robust systems will fail due to unforseen circumstances.
  96. [14:05:34] <Makenshi> As has already been shown, it's not difficult to break portions of the internet.
  97. [14:05:49] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Ok, all the decent openid providers are up practically all the time.
  98. [14:06:09] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> But sure, they may go down occasionally.
  99. [14:06:31] <Makenshi> By having two diverse delegations and providers I can reasonably assure that there will be slim chance of losing access to my accounts
  100. [14:06:40] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> But I'd bet that is so infrequent that a user isn't going to remember their alternate openid.
  101. [14:07:13] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> You are reasonably assured of that with simple delegation.
  102. [14:07:18] <Makenshi> That is also why I use x.509 in addition to OpenID where possible
  103. [14:07:26] <Makenshi> (hopefully U-Prove will take of soon too)
  104. [14:07:39] <Makenshi> s/of/off/
  105. [14:08:15] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Openid will work when people make long term commitments to identites instead of dabbling their toes with a dozen different urls.
  106. [14:08:58] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> x.509 will tell you what additional identity you used for the account you can't log into?
  107. [14:09:07] <Makenshi> Heh, I don't "dabble". I carefully chose two providers having assessed the available providers.
  108. [14:09:28] <Makenshi> No, x.509 is a completely separate authentication method which does not rely on a third party.
  109. [14:09:35] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> I'm not really meaning you, I mean a civilian. :)
  110. [14:09:41] <Makenshi> *nodnods*
  111. [14:10:16] <Makenshi> (unless ocsp is used..)
  112. [14:10:29] <Makenshi> Which it really ought to be, but few sites seem to bother with.
  113. [14:12:41] <Makenshi> On a related note, StartCom is offering an OpenID iDP and SSL certificates with a $10,000 guarantee for free
  114. [14:12:47] <TedThibodeauJr> personally, I have several legacy accounts, which are now also OpenIDs ... I want to be able to make them all universally reflective -- so I can remember *any* of them and log in to *any* of them
  115. [14:13:16] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Why not just one?
  116. [14:13:26] <TedThibodeauJr> "because they go down"
  117. [14:13:45] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Ok :)\
  118. [14:13:56] <TedThibodeauJr> there's no such thing as 100% reliability, companies go under, are acquired, etc.
  119. [14:14:27] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> The domain name system is what has to fail for a domain I own to be taken over.
  120. [14:14:57] <TedThibodeauJr> I think adding support for 1 OpenID is not much easier than adding support for many, given you're starting from a legacy system
  121. [14:15:14] <Makenshi> samsm, I hope you use a registrar not under the jurisdiction of the USA then :o)
  122. [14:15:17] <TedThibodeauJr> if OpenID were being built like DNS, it would be a different question -- but it's not
  123. [14:16:33] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> :)
  124. [14:17:23] <Makenshi> I am so glad I don't live in the UK any more
  125. [14:17:38] <Makenshi> I am looking forward to the day I can renounce my citizenship
  126. [14:18:41] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Another thing is that good practice or not, some sites will support just one, so if you are using a variety of openids, you can get stuck trying to remember which is the one you used on Basecamp or something.
  127. [14:19:25] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> By and large, the usage pattern is going to be one identity per account, other accounts will serve for backup purposes. I don't think people will actually go to the trouble of setting those up on all the sites they use until it is too late.
  128. [14:19:54] <Makenshi> For the most part, i use http://id.mydomain.com
  129. [14:20:11] <Makenshi> If it's possible on the site i add a second one, id.myotherdomain.com
  130. [14:28:35] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Yeah, I don't think people at large will actually do that.
  131. [14:29:42] <TedThibodeauJr> thing is, by-and-large, many people are going to be in my boat -- lots of existing accounts suddenly become OpenID sources
  132. [14:29:59] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> That's a fair point.
  133. [14:30:22] <TedThibodeauJr> I can pick one to "standardize" on -- but I don't just want the new places to know I'm the same as that "standard" -- I want all the sites to know I'm the same as all the others
  134. [14:30:49] <Makenshi> Yadis helps here
  135. [14:34:39] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by all the sites knowing you're the same.
  136. [14:35:31] <TedThibodeauJr> this quickly gets bigger than OpenID, and into Data Portability ... along the lines of I want my "friends" lists to be transferrable/importable
  137. [14:35:54] <TedThibodeauJr> so it's not just *my* identity I want to be equated, but all my *friends* identities
  138. [14:35:59] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> If you standardized on one url, then used that one everywhere, they'd all know you as the same identity.
  139. [14:36:16] <TedThibodeauJr> so I want fred@livejournal and freedy@flickr and frederick@gmail to map to each other
  140. [14:36:20] <Makenshi> TedThibodeauJr, foaf helps there, but there's a lot of work that needs to be done
  141. [14:36:24] <TedThibodeauJr> *nods*
  142. [14:36:32] <TedThibodeauJr> no argument, *lots* of work to go
  143. [14:36:37] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Mmm, like your myspace friends or whatever.
  144. [14:36:43] <Makenshi> There's some neat things involving foaf and sparql
  145. [14:36:44] <TedThibodeauJr> but it's too late to standardize on one URL)
  146. [14:37:10] <TedThibodeauJr> #dataportability, #foaf, #swig ... many open conversations :-)
  147. [14:37:46] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> That's something that could be spidered and published too.
  148. [14:37:58] <Makenshi> I was hoping to use openid and foaf for a wireless captive portal, the use case being to allow my friends to automatically use my wireless networks
  149. [14:38:26] <PibbRelay`> <samsm> Sounds cool.
  150. [14:48:25] <TedThibodeauJr> that's a good one
  151. [14:49:11] <TedThibodeauJr> the most popular use-case I know for FOAF to date is as an automatic blog-comment whitelist, but it's still of limited utility lacking critical FOAF mass
  152. [15:01:51] <donomo> rel=me is a good way to tie all your 'home' pages or profile pages together.
  153. [15:04:32] <donomo> http://doncam.livejournal.com/328343.html
  154. [15:05:46] * danieljohnlewis (n=danieljo@cpc5-oxfd2-0-0-cust8.oxfd.cable.ntl.com) Quit ()
  155. [15:06:12] <Makenshi> donomo, http://www.oreillynet.com/onjava/blog/2005/08/visualizing_the_oreilly_connec.html
  156. [15:08:07] <donomo> Makenshi: nice.
  157. [15:08:26] <Makenshi> I don't know where to store my foaf data right now
  158. [15:15:12] <Makenshi> I notice livejournal doesn't generate foaf data for openid accounts
  159. [15:18:00] <donomo> ive been converted to XFN
  160. [15:18:52] * a9913 (n=a9913@unaffiliated/a9913) has joined #openid
  161. [15:20:12] <Makenshi> XFN instead of foaf?
  162. [15:20:47] <donomo> i liked keeping a profile in a seperate xml document (foaf)
  163. [15:20:59] <donomo> but adding rel="me" to <a> tags is really easy and suprizingly useful
  164. [15:30:03] <TedThibodeauJr> they're both useful ... fortunately, they're not mutually exclusive :-)
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  176. [17:29:01] <e_s_p> "Warning: this site has not confirmed its identity with Yahoo! and might be fraudulent."
  177. [17:29:07] <e_s_p> What the hell is that about?
  178. [17:29:22] <e_s_p> Also, Yahoo's OpenID server seems to not support sreg -- right?
  179. [17:32:12] <e_s_p> Argh - RP discovery
  180. [17:32:14] <e_s_p> Harrumph
  181. [17:32:18] <e_s_p> Guess I better get on that
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  187. [18:37:37] * Makenshi (n=chaz@pix.vendia-kollegiet.dk) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
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  189. [18:43:48] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #openid
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  195. [19:55:11] <jbond> Trying to do the OpenID Consumer RP yadis.xrdf thing. And failing to get Yahoo to drop their warning.
  196. [20:08:57] <jbond> Would anyone like to help? Or offer advice?
  197. [20:15:19] * ascarter_ (n=andrewc@outbound.gettyimages.com) has joined #openid
  198. [20:23:43] <e_s_p> I got nothin'
  199. [20:23:48] <e_s_p> I find it pretty annoying, actually
  200. [20:24:20] <e_s_p> Is it known that Yahoo! does the RP discovery at OpenID login time?
  201. [20:24:32] <e_s_p> Are you getting a hit from them on your server?
  202. [20:34:03] * plindner (n=plindner@71.5.1.212.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
  203. [20:36:01] * rebel_leader (n=Horst@X6836.x.pppool.de) has joined #openid
  204. [20:43:41] * rebel_leader (n=Horst@X6836.x.pppool.de) Quit ("Verlassend")
  205. [20:44:22] * illustir (n=alper@s55912056.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit ()
  206. [20:44:46] <jbond> running a grep now
  207. [20:45:50] <jbond> http://groups.google.com/group/openid4java/browse_frm/thread/b777fae19cac1529/e273170c59e57576#e273170c59e57576 suggests their yadis discovery may only be using the http header and not the <meta as well. Still can't make it work though
  208. [20:47:56] <jbond> Yup. Yahoo have been reading the yadis file. Which I guess means I've coded it wrong.
  209. [20:58:59] * Mitsurugi (n=Nightmar@201.Red-81-44-39.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  210. [21:01:43] * TedThibodeauJr (n=Thud@ws2.openlinksw.com) Quit ()
  211. [21:16:41] * Mitsurugi (n=Nightmar@80.31.76.95) has joined #openID
  212. [21:22:38] * illustir (n=alper@c537520a8.cable.wanadoo.nl) has joined #openid
  213. [21:23:00] * abstractwater (n=ep@adsl-67-121-146-148.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #openid
  214. [21:23:29] * abstractwater (n=ep@adsl-67-121-146-148.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has left #openid
  215. [21:23:46] <_keturn> jbond: I looked over your xrds, nothing stands out as being that different from the one for e.g. jyte.com. Perhaps the :80 is confusing it.
  216. [21:39:48] * illustir (n=alper@c537520a8.cable.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  217. [21:39:56] * illustir (n=alper@s55911e61.adsl.wanadoo.nl) has joined #openid
  218. [21:50:25] * SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) has joined #openid
  219. [21:52:34] * SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  220. [22:07:22] * SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) has joined #openid
  221. [22:07:23] <jbond> The returnTo passed to yahoo includes the port. So I figure it should be in the yadis file as well.
  222. [22:17:44] * Navarr (n=navarr@adsl-75-53-193-248.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net) Quit ("Yeah.. I'll see ya around...")
  223. [22:26:02] * MrTopf (i=hidden-u@oecher.info) Quit ()
  224. [22:50:06] * idnar_ (i=mithrand@dsl-243-101-134.telkomadsl.co.za) has joined #openid
  225. [22:50:09] * idnar (i=mithrand@unaffiliated/idnar) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  226. [22:50:17] * idnar_ is now known as idnar
  227. [22:54:05] * jbond (n=Julian_B@cpc3-ware3-0-0-cust389.lutn.cable.ntl.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  228. [22:58:13] * plindner (n=plindner@71.5.1.212.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #openid
  229. [23:14:50] * illustir (n=alper@s55911e61.adsl.wanadoo.nl) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  230. [23:17:51] * e_s_p (n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  231. [23:29:12] * SvenDowideit_ (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) has joined #openid
  232. [23:32:09] * forsaken_ (n=eric@c-71-62-234-185.hsd1.va.comcast.net) has joined #openid
  233. [23:35:00] * singpolyma (n=singpoly@bas8-kitchener06-1242386583.dsl.bell.ca) Quit ()
  234. [23:46:12] * SvenDowideit (n=SvenDowi@twiki/developer/SvenDowideit) Quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  235. [23:51:43] * Leonidas (n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas) Quit (Remote closed the connection)

These logs were automatically created by OpenIDlogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.