IRC Log for #openid on 2009-10-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [12:28:05] <papucho>
hi
- [12:28:40] <papucho>
I'm thinking in using openid as the only authentication methods for a web app, what do you think?
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- [17:26:17] <Brend>
LaunchPad is an openid provider
- [17:26:21] <Brend>
But ... not a relying party :(
- [17:26:36] <Brend>
I need more places I can login with OpenIDs, not more places that give me OpenIDs. I have a billion already
- [17:30:26] <samsm>
This is the chicken/egg problem.
- [17:31:02] <Brend>
I can understand existing services having issues being RPs, given that they have a bunch of auth stuff in place already
- [17:31:13] <Brend>
I have trouble understanding new services not doing it
- [17:31:30] <samsm>
It's work for little payoff.
- [17:31:53] <Brend>
Less work than writing all the auth stuff oneself, I reckon
- [17:32:20] <samsm>
Well, you still need to support email based auth for people who are baffled by OpenID.
- [17:32:41] <Brend>
No you don't. You just need to give them at least one easy option -- Google, say, or Yahoo
- [17:32:50] <Brend>
Preferably offer a bunch of them, like StackOverflow does
- [17:33:11] <samsm>
That's fine for more technical users.
- [17:33:16] <Brend>
Let those guys worry about the confirmation emails and "forgot your password?" screens and so on
- [17:35:50] <samsm>
Ultimately I hope what you are describing is exactly what happens, I just don't think we are there yet.
- [17:37:13] <Brend>
I think if we start being RPs, users will catch on -- they have to everything else
- [17:37:41] <Brend>
At any rate, we're going OpenID for all our stuff -- mostly because writing an OpenID client seemed like way more fun than writing yet another email signup page
- [17:38:00] * MrTopf (n=cs@p5B396003.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit ()
- [17:39:49] <samsm>
Could be ... but a fairly low percentage of sites go to the trouble to be RPs due to relatively low payoff.
- [17:40:32] <samsm>
Something like Facebook Connect is a better deal for a small site owner in the short term.
- [17:41:06] <samsm>
I think OpenID will win out eventually, but it'll take time.
- [17:41:14] <Brend>
I think things like OAuth will become a big payoff eventually
- [17:41:23] <samsm>
Totally
- [17:43:45] <Brend>
LaunchPad remains ridiculous though -- their userbase is entirely technical, and I bet every single Launchpad user has at least one openid already
- [17:43:51] <Brend>
They have no good excuse for not being a RP
- [17:45:57] <samsm>
Github too for that matter.
- [17:46:06] <Brend>
Is github an OP?
- [17:46:28] <samsm>
No, neither.
- [17:46:51] <Brend>
That's actually slightly less annoying
- [17:48:49] <samsm>
I agree that RP support would be better.
- [17:49:53] <samsm>
It's possible their OP support was developed for some internal use and made public because "why not?".
- [17:53:16] <Brend>
So I'm reading https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad-foundations/+bug/1169
- [17:53:28] <Brend>
And I see this:
- [17:53:37] <Brend>
"For the record, the provider authentication policy extension only has value when there is a pre-existing trust relationship between the relying party and OpenID provider."
- [17:53:38] <Brend>
"I can set up my own OpenID provider and have it assert that it authenticated me with physical two-factor authentication when it does not in fact do so. Any site that acts on that assertion without knowing the details of my OP is broken."
- [17:53:59] <Brend>
Is that true? I'm not sure.
- [17:54:28] <Brend>
Certainly for the user it would be a problem if their OP was insecure, but I'm not sure that makes it a problem for the RP
- [17:56:27] <samsm>
You are correct.
- [17:57:38] <samsm>
(Looks like) Launchpad is presently supporting username/password based auth, with no sort of image-based phishing protectiion or anything like that.
- [17:58:15] <samsm>
So I don't think they get to be sanctimonious about security policies.
- [17:59:26] <yangman>
all that security stuff is a red herring
- [17:59:33] <Brend>
And then this: "That said, we still feel it is important that a user's identity URL be immutable (since changing the URL cuts you off from accounts on RPs you've previously logged in to) and never recycled (since that would let someone else assume your identity)."
- [17:59:38] <yangman>
it's no different than users using a weakly protected email provider
- [17:59:43] <Brend>
The 2.0 spec has specific provisions for the latter case, via URL fragments
- [17:59:44] <Brend>
Grrr.
- [18:00:34] <Brend>
yangman: Right. The user makes an assertion to the RP: "This OP speaks for me". There isn't, won't be, never has been, and never will be any way to test that assertion, whatever the mechanism.
- [18:01:06] <Brend>
Whether it's an OpenID OP, an email account, or some guy typing a password in.
- [18:03:03] * Brend drinks more
- [18:03:16] <yangman>
OpenID is just another, very thin layer on top of everything that's already an issue with authentication
- [18:03:25] <yangman>
all this stalling really ticks me off
- [18:03:44] <Brend>
In fairness, OpenID is fairly hard to understand
- [18:04:05] <yangman>
I can count at least 5 instances in the last year where I chose not to contribute to a bug report or forum because I didn't have an account, and they weren't a RP
- [18:05:17] <samsm>
That's more my frustration ... I get not sticking OpenID in front of my mom, but support for sites with technical audiences seems like a really good idea.
- [18:05:18] <Brend>
I feel like there should be a technical overview somewhere. openid.net pretty much just links to the spec, and it took me three days of implementing it before I understood what was going on
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- [23:29:47] <sfuentes>
what is an openid relying party?
- [23:40:12] <samsm>
A site that accepts logins using OpenID would be an example.
- [23:40:45] <samsm>
It's the side that is looking for confirmation of an identity, not the side that confirms it.
- [23:42:35] * karstensrage (n=chatzill@70.42.238.2) Quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.31 [Mozilla rv:1.4.3/20040924]")
- [23:43:37] <sfuentes>
so what is a site that confirms identity called?
- [23:46:05] <samsm>
OpenID Provider, it's all in here: http://openid.net/specs/openid-authentication-2_0.html#terminology
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