IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:07:51] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  2. [00:32:14] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@cpe-24-166-51-26.neo.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  3. [00:34:48] <mfbot> [[requirements-testing-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requirements-testing-examples * MarkRickerby * (+3182) moved test language examples to separate page
  4. [00:42:30] <mfbot> [[requirements-testing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3302 * MarkRickerby * (-3710)
  5. [00:44:00] <mfbot> [[requirements-testing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3303 * MarkRickerby * (-57)
  6. [00:44:57] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3304 * MarkRickerby * (+35) Exploratory discussions: requirements-testing-examples
  7. [01:05:05] * tantek (n=tantek@66.114.246.42) has joined #microformats
  8. [01:05:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  9. [01:05:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  10. [01:08:01] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@66.114.246.47) has joined #microformats
  11. [01:08:10] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-141-166.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  12. [01:10:39] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  13. [01:13:51] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-141-166.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  14. [01:16:08] <tantek> regarding people using microformats for to-do lists, check this out: http://markbernstein.org/Dec0501.html#note_36673
  15. [01:21:03] <karlUshi> tantek will you be at the Technical Plenary in March?
  16. [01:27:54] <mfbot> [[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3305 * Tantek * (+1) Attention Formats -
  17. [01:31:37] <karlUshi> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/blog/4
  18. [01:36:42] * KentBye (n=chatzill@pool-70-105-243-160.port.east.verizon.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  19. [01:37:14] <kingryan> uh oh, tbl has a blog
  20. [01:46:26] <factoryjoe> oh man
  21. [01:46:28] <factoryjoe> where?
  22. [01:46:42] <factoryjoe> oh
  23. [01:46:43] <factoryjoe> duh
  24. [01:46:58] <karlUshi> ;)
  25. [01:47:02] <factoryjoe> on drupal!
  26. [01:47:08] <factoryjoe> hey, i themed his calendar!
  27. [01:47:10] <factoryjoe> w00t!
  28. [01:47:36] <karlUshi> sorry for the slightly off-topic, I hope I will not be burnt
  29. [01:51:14] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  30. [01:51:35] <kingryan> tbl's not off topic
  31. [01:51:35] <kingryan> :D
  32. [01:52:10] <mfbot> [[attention]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention * Tantek * (+654)
  33. [01:53:11] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3306 * Tantek * (+52) Exploratory discussions -
  34. [01:58:21] <tantek> Karl, very cool. Who finally pushed TBL over the edge to starting a blog?
  35. [01:59:37] <mfbot> [[attention-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-examples&diff=0&oldid=3307 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Examples -
  36. [01:59:53] <mfbot> [[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3308 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Formats -
  37. [02:02:05] <mfbot> [[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3309 * Tantek * (+80) Attention Brainstorming -
  38. [02:03:06] <mfbot> [[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3310 * Tantek * (+13) Definite -
  39. [02:19:22] <karlUshi> tantek: a few of us inside the W3C Team. There is more to come ;) you will see
  40. [02:19:53] <karlUshi> http://www.w3.org/2005/06/poak/
  41. [02:22:14] <factoryjoe> Tantek: what's the relationship between XOXO and definition lists?
  42. [02:26:17] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  43. [02:26:47] <tantek> hey factoryjoe
  44. [02:26:59] <factoryjoe> ;)
  45. [02:27:05] <factoryjoe> so does XOXO relate to DLs?
  46. [02:27:15] <tantek> yes
  47. [02:27:22] <factoryjoe> ok
  48. [02:27:26] <factoryjoe> how?
  49. [02:27:29] <tantek> XOXO uses DL for arbitrary properties on items
  50. [02:27:42] <factoryjoe> ah ha
  51. [02:27:42] <factoryjoe> ij
  52. [02:27:44] <factoryjoe> ok
  53. [02:27:47] <factoryjoe> that sounds right
  54. [02:29:13] * drumm (n=drumm@c-71-198-78-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  55. [02:29:14] <jibot> drumm is Neil and blogs at http://delocalizedham.com/ and is the lead developer for CivicSpace (its like DeanSpace, but better) and a crankypants
  56. [02:29:22] <drumm> jibot: thats still all wrong
  57. [02:29:28] <factoryjoe> heh
  58. [02:29:33] <factoryjoe> ?forget drumm
  59. [02:29:34] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  60. [02:29:37] <factoryjoe> damn
  61. [02:29:46] <tantek> factoryjoe, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Properties_of_Outline_Items
  62. [02:30:18] <factoryjoe> mm
  63. [02:30:20] <drumm> tantek: my connections to microformats.org are timing out
  64. [02:30:22] <factoryjoe> this was a drumm question
  65. [02:30:27] <factoryjoe> mine aren't
  66. [02:31:38] <drumm> tantek: basically I'm trying to get a generic label/data themable function into Drupal. The last couple times I tried using <dl> people said that wasn't a valid use of those tags
  67. [02:32:07] <factoryjoe> drumm: don't listen to other people
  68. [02:32:17] <factoryjoe> it's the most semantic thing you've got in xhtml
  69. [02:32:28] <factoryjoe> obviously you'd use a label in there too
  70. [02:33:09] <drumm> factoryjoe: open source is all about consensus. sometimes you have to listen to people to get that.
  71. [02:33:28] <drumm> label?
  72. [02:33:47] <drumm> <dt><label>foo</label></dt>?
  73. [02:34:21] <factoryjoe> right
  74. [02:34:36] <drumm> factoryjoe: aren't labels only for forms?
  75. [02:34:45] <factoryjoe> drumm: while i agree in principal, design by committee fails
  76. [02:34:56] <factoryjoe> but regardless
  77. [02:35:02] <mfbot> [[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3311 * Tantek * (+115) See Also -
  78. [02:35:03] <factoryjoe> i think using dls is fine
  79. [02:35:55] <drumm> right, but I want something better to cite than "factoryjoe says so"
  80. [02:36:02] <tantek> no, can't use <label> like that
  81. [02:36:05] <tantek> i tried but it's wrong
  82. [02:36:06] <factoryjoe> ?!
  83. [02:36:08] <factoryjoe> really?
  84. [02:36:10] <tantek> <label> is only for form elements
  85. [02:36:11] <tantek> yes
  86. [02:36:16] <tantek> can't even use it for <img/>
  87. [02:36:18] <factoryjoe> well yeah
  88. [02:36:22] <tantek> like as an image caption etc.
  89. [02:36:23] <drumm> I knew it! design by comittee works.
  90. [02:36:29] <factoryjoe> you use the label inside a dt inside a form for an input
  91. [02:36:31] <tantek> drumm is right
  92. [02:36:42] <factoryjoe> drumm, this is for a form, n'est-ce pas?
  93. [02:36:48] <tantek> drumm, what is the problem with using DLs?
  94. [02:36:53] <tantek> what is the specific objection?
  95. [02:36:56] <drumm> factoryjoe: nope, just plain old data
  96. [02:37:20] <drumm> tantek: just want something strong t cite since the w3c spec is unclear on this
  97. [02:37:34] <drumm> I know someone will disagree
  98. [02:37:49] <tantek> actually W3C spec is clear if you read it very carefully
  99. [02:38:10] <tantek> W3C spec gives precise definition for DL/DT/DD
  100. [02:38:20] <tantek> and then throws in a completely random example from left-field
  101. [02:38:21] <factoryjoe> oh alright
  102. [02:38:23] <factoryjoe> that's fine then
  103. [02:38:23] <drumm> heh, need a clear interpretation
  104. [02:38:26] <factoryjoe> i presumed it was a form
  105. [02:38:28] <factoryjoe> ok
  106. [02:38:28] <tantek> and people remember the random example unfortunately
  107. [02:38:30] <tantek> the trick is
  108. [02:38:38] <tantek> that examples in W3C specs are *informative* only
  109. [02:38:41] <tantek> not *normative*
  110. [02:38:52] <tantek> and thus if the example disagrees or otherwise violates the other part of the spec
  111. [02:38:56] <tantek> then the example is wrong
  112. [02:39:04] <tantek> and the definitions in the spec are right
  113. [02:39:35] * karlUshi agrees with tantek on that.
  114. [02:39:42] <DanC> I find that's sort of pissing-in-the-wind. As you say, people pay attention to the examples, so it's important to get them right
  115. [02:39:50] * tantek needs to write a short essay about how to read W3C specs.
  116. [02:40:14] <tantek> DanC, true, it is important to get them right.
  117. [02:40:18] <karlUshi> DanC: yes but the specs should specifically identified what is normative and what is not :)
  118. [02:40:29] <tantek> But *when* mistakes are made, we need to be up front about how to interpret them. ;)
  119. [02:40:38] <tantek> karlUshi++
  120. [02:40:51] <karlUshi> and pissing in the wind ;) is fine if you have the wind in your back btw ;)
  121. [02:40:56] <DanC> normative shmormative. What matters is the understanding that people take away
  122. [02:41:32] <DanC> the question is whether it's more cost-effective to fix old specs or write "how to decode W3C specs" articles
  123. [02:42:03] <karlUshi> http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#norm-informative-gp
  124. [02:42:17] <drumm> now what about factoryjoe's forms marked up with <dl>? I remember him being very excited about doing that in his theme a long time ago. During that phase where he saw everything as a <dl>
  125. [02:42:42] <karlUshi> dl = definition list
  126. [02:42:48] <karlUshi> dt = definition term
  127. [02:42:53] <DanC> I find the "Why care?" rationale for #norm-informative-gp completely un-persuasive
  128. [02:42:56] <karlUshi> dd = definition description
  129. [02:44:43] <karlUshi> DanC: You can't cover all examples cases in a specification :) It's why I wish that there was with each specification a kind of Good Practices guide. That would help a lot to have a non normative reference of accumulated use cases
  130. [02:44:51] <karlUshi> And that could be updated time to time
  131. [02:45:00] <DanC> rather than saying "make sure people can tell the normative from the informative", I'd just say "be careful to make your spec consistent. Consider making test cases out of all your examples so that they'll be checked by machine."
  132. [02:45:15] <jcgregorio> implementers-guide++
  133. [02:45:38] <jcgregorio> that was actually done for Atom
  134. [02:45:51] <karlUshi> yep joe :)
  135. [02:46:00] <factoryjoe> yeah, what about that?
  136. [02:46:02] <DanC> oh? I don't recall seeing the Atom implemetor's guide...
  137. [02:46:04] <factoryjoe> was i off my rocker?
  138. [02:46:05] * DanC googles...
  139. [02:46:08] <factoryjoe> and not able to read specs?
  140. [02:46:20] <jcgregorio> no, not the implementers guide
  141. [02:46:30] <karlUshi> DanC: And you requirement is covered here too ;) http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#write-sample-gp
  142. [02:46:34] <jcgregorio> the automatic checking of spec examples against the RNC
  143. [02:46:55] <karlUshi> QA Frame Spec is not a law, but a tool for people to help write specifications. It's the cool aspect of it
  144. [02:47:13] <DanC> but what's cool about #norm-informative-gp ?
  145. [02:47:18] <DanC> how does it help?
  146. [02:47:52] <jcgregorio> it doesn't, it reads like an excuse, do as we say not as we do...
  147. [02:48:34] <DanC> quite
  148. [02:48:39] <karlUshi> it helps people to not stay in a square box. I call it the "first time syndrome"
  149. [02:49:06] <karlUshi> You give an example or something which is done in one way, and everyone will stay in the limit of this example
  150. [02:49:23] <karlUshi> even if there's more than one way of doing or using it
  151. [02:49:49] <jcgregorio> the first time someone reads a spec they scan from beginning to end looking for charts, diagrams and examples
  152. [02:50:05] <karlUshi> yes joe.
  153. [02:50:14] <DanC> yup. I skip over all the crud before the hello-world example
  154. [02:50:28] <factoryjoe> karlUshi: yes joe, i was off my rocker?
  155. [02:50:36] <factoryjoe> ok
  156. [02:50:42] <DanC> for lots of specs, I hit the end of the spec before i find hello-world. :(
  157. [02:50:46] <jcgregorio> if you're lucky they'll actually read some of the spec text, but only after their their first pass fails the validator
  158. [02:50:51] <karlUshi> I hate the hello world example ;) as much as the FOAF example for RDF ;)
  159. [02:51:18] <DanC> you hate the hello world example? I think that disqualifies you from helping people read specs
  160. [02:51:34] <DanC> the RDF primer is an example in HOW NOT TO WRITE SPECS
  161. [02:51:42] <jcgregorio> people learn by examples
  162. [02:51:58] <jcgregorio> the spec text is for lawyering when implementations don't interop
  163. [02:52:55] <DanC> interestingly, I've had this very debate (about the successive-elaboration-by-example style vs exhaustive enumeration) with the SPARQL editors...
  164. [02:52:57] <karlUshi> DanC: agreed for RDF Primer. I tried to translate it in French. Very very very bad
  165. [02:53:08] <jcgregorio> there is an unfortunate trend towards making specs dry, lifeless and rigid
  166. [02:53:18] <jcgregorio> is Kendall an editor of that?
  167. [02:53:30] <jcgregorio> editor of Sparql, that is...
  168. [02:53:39] <DanC> I convinced the editor of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ but for http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ , I only got the editor to put lots of examples at the end
  169. [02:53:49] <karlUshi> "Hello world" example hate: explanation -> Because it's always the same boring example, no variations, no imagination, putting people in Boxes. It's why.
  170. [02:54:01] <jcgregorio> A good spec should read like the old RFC's
  171. [02:54:03] <karlUshi> at least, if it was written "Bonjour le monde"
  172. [02:54:36] <jcgregorio> you read them and they're like sitting across from Jon Postel and he's explaining to you how to implement the protocol
  173. [02:54:55] <jcgregorio> and occastionally scribbling a diagram on the back of an envelope during the discussion
  174. [02:55:07] <DanC> really, jcgregorio ? I don't recall any/many RFCs like that. I find RFCs to be the other extremem, by and large. Can you think of an example?
  175. [02:55:29] <jcgregorio> the really oooold ones, like TCP/IP
  176. [02:55:34] * jcgregorio searching...
  177. [02:56:12] <karlUshi> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2005Jul/0006.html
  178. [02:56:25] <karlUshi> that was an interesting thread too.
  179. [02:57:03] * DanC takes another look at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc793.html
  180. [02:57:06] <karlUshi> jcgregorio: many of the specs are indeed too dry they don't tell stories, they don't give the idea of what is the value of the language
  181. [02:59:42] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Success)
  182. [02:59:42] <DanC> my mantra is "story telling and test cases". some days I think the spec is hardly worth writing down
  183. [02:59:58] <jcgregorio> yes
  184. [03:00:10] <jcgregorio> 793 is a good example
  185. [03:00:36] <jcgregorio> """At a gateway between networks, the internet datagram is "unwrapped"
  186. [03:00:38] <jcgregorio> from its local packet and examined to determine through which network
  187. [03:00:40] <jcgregorio> the internet datagram should travel next. The internet datagram is
  188. [03:00:42] <jcgregorio> then "wrapped" in a local packet suitable to the next network and
  189. [03:00:44] * tantek (n=tantek@66.114.246.42) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  190. [03:00:44] <jcgregorio> routed to the next gateway, or to the final destination.
  191. [03:00:46] <jcgregorio> """
  192. [03:01:27] <jcgregorio> now you couldn't write that today without a having to include a thesis on the definition of "unwrapped" and "wrapped"
  193. [03:01:29] <DanC> There clearly aren't enough Postels to go around. I like Guy Steele's Java spec too.
  194. [03:02:37] <DanC> note that RFC793 wasn't the 1st draft of a TCP spec; it cites a 1974 design document
  195. [03:03:17] <DanC> Maybe every spec should be re-written 7 years after the original design/deployment ;-)
  196. [03:03:33] <jcgregorio> I like that rule
  197. [03:03:50] <DanC> RFC793 has diagrams with ftp and such on top; i.e. they had lots of experience with TCP in context
  198. [03:04:35] <jcgregorio> yeah, rough concensus and running code goes a loooong way
  199. [03:04:50] <DanC> hmm... the HTML 4 spec was largely a rewrite by a professional tech writer, but it almost feels like it's time to do it again
  200. [03:05:36] <karlUshi> DanC: spec fixed, and there should be a perpetual guide of implementation and recipes. Somehow I like the way PHP site has done it. Far to be perfect, but there's an idea I like about it. A part of the spec of the language and a forum under it. It could be even a wiki and/or a list of weblog post aggregation
  201. [03:05:40] * DanC wonders how many man-hours go into something like technical review of the Steves book(s)
  202. [03:06:23] <karlUshi> html 4.01 spec rewriting ++
  203. [03:06:31] <DanC> well, one perspective is that there *is* a perpetual guide of implementation and recipies for HTML; visit your local bookstore.
  204. [03:07:00] <DanC> the question is: how much of that should W3C try to... organize/control/steer
  205. [03:07:17] <karlUshi> not control, put the platform for it
  206. [03:07:30] <DanC> er... platform... like the web?
  207. [03:07:30] <karlUshi> a bit like esw.w3.org
  208. [03:07:33] <jcgregorio> yes, let's not cut into the money I make writing for XML.com :)
  209. [03:07:41] <karlUshi> ahaha joe ;)
  210. [03:07:56] <DanC> but why esw.W3.ORG? why not xml.com and ora.com and the like?
  211. [03:08:07] <DanC> W3C owns/controls esw.w3.org
  212. [03:08:18] <karlUshi> Danc: very simple answer
  213. [03:09:01] <karlUshi> people wants a point of reference, no matter what you do they want to find a reference information
  214. [03:09:03] * DanC presumes, given lack of objections or other topics arising, that nobody minds using this channel for something only tangentially related to microformats
  215. [03:09:16] <karlUshi> see the discussion which has happened before between joe and drum
  216. [03:09:20] <karlUshi> :)
  217. [03:09:48] <karlUshi> DanC: I'm surprised Tantek didn't cut off the discussion yet ;)
  218. [03:10:06] <karlUshi> There's a #w3c channel on freenode as well
  219. [03:10:28] <DanC> yes, people would like W3C to give them a handy and correct answer to every question that they have. But is it realistic for us to try? Isn't it *better* to do a good job for a smaller audience, and make it clear that the larger audience should try google or their local bookstore/user-group/classroom?
  220. [03:10:58] <karlUshi> DanC have you seen the number of books which tells crap
  221. [03:11:15] <jcgregorio> so the Atom Syndication Format doc should have just been an RNC?
  222. [03:11:19] <DanC> no, really? there are crappy books? I had _no idea_.
  223. [03:11:30] <karlUshi> At least once a month I go to a bookstore to the computing section and starts to look at the books
  224. [03:11:43] <karlUshi> For HTML, it's like banging the head on the table
  225. [03:11:53] <karlUshi> DanC: ;)
  226. [03:12:10] <DanC> karlUshi, are you familiar with Sturgeon's Law? http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SturgeonsLaw.html why would you expect your local bookstore to be exempt?
  227. [03:12:12] <karlUshi> And university/class curriculum is even worse
  228. [03:12:33] * karlUshi knows Esturgeon for the caviar
  229. [03:12:40] <karlUshi> A good gastronomy law
  230. [03:12:51] <factoryjoe> ok, i'm out
  231. [03:12:53] <factoryjoe> cya
  232. [03:12:55] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  233. [03:13:10] * DanC wonders if we should count that as an objection
  234. [03:13:20] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  235. [03:13:29] <jcgregorio> I go the bookstore to the computing section and get scared by all the people on the covers of wrox books looking out at me
  236. [03:13:41] <karlUshi> ahaha
  237. [03:13:42] <karlUshi> :D
  238. [03:14:21] <DanC> just an RNC... hmm... good question... in some sense, yes... but... the rest of the spec is there for social reasons... it's an artifact that is the result of the consensus process.
  239. [03:15:23] <jcgregorio> hmm, maybe I should come up with an RNC like grammar for HTTP transactions
  240. [03:15:29] <DanC> well... I suppose a really excellent spec is all three: (1) the facts/RNC (2) the words that demonstrate consent of the governed (3) an effective teaching artifact
  241. [03:15:41] <karlUshi> http://www.google.com/search?q=rnc
  242. [03:15:44] <karlUshi> hmmm
  243. [03:15:52] * karlUshi wonders what RNC is
  244. [03:15:53] <jcgregorio> that plus RNC and I could boil the Atom Publishing Protocol down into a single page
  245. [03:16:01] <jcgregorio> Relax-NG compact
  246. [03:16:03] <jcgregorio> sorry
  247. [03:16:11] <karlUshi> oooh thanks
  248. [03:17:24] * DanC is conflicted... I'm really borrowing from family time here, but this is an interesting discussion
  249. [03:17:55] <karlUshi> DanC: family time is more important
  250. [03:18:11] <DanC> a part of me is always searching for the most concise formal description of something... but (2) and (3) are important too
  251. [03:18:26] <jcgregorio> yeah, we'll always be here
  252. [03:39:59] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  253. [03:39:59] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  254. [03:40:13] <amanuel_> delicious is still down :(
  255. [03:40:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  256. [03:41:23] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit ("leaving")
  257. [03:41:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  258. [03:53:29] <karlUshi> amanuel_: try blogmarks.net :)
  259. [03:54:02] <amanuel_> heh perhaps after I get my data off them :)
  260. [03:54:53] <drumm> amanuel_: hey. are we done with that drupal-devel theme debate yet? :)
  261. [03:55:46] <amanuel_> ?
  262. [03:56:02] <amanuel_> drumm: theme?
  263. [03:56:49] <amanuel_> hey we are talking in microformats :) didn't know you hang here too
  264. [03:56:59] <drumm> amanuel_: nevermind. wrong drupal person. was just suprised to find you here too
  265. [03:57:25] <amanuel_> well there is cools stuff happening here too :)
  266. [03:57:32] * drumm will prolly leave soon. idling in 6 irc rooms is too much
  267. [03:58:36] <karlUshi> drumm: ??? :) Right now I have 15 IRC channels open on my xchat
  268. [03:58:50] <amanuel_> I usually top out at 3-4 anymore than that, the universe tends to get everyone to start talking stuff of interest at the same time.
  269. [03:59:23] <karlUshi> ahaha ;) because you actually read them ;)
  270. [04:00:25] <amanuel_> ;)
  271. [04:01:17] <karlUshi> http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/wlg/8715
  272. [04:01:22] <karlUshi> Are we getting stupid?
  273. [04:04:02] <drumm> I don't think simplicity makes you dumb
  274. [04:04:55] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  275. [04:06:35] * jcgregorio points at the 'interface' to Google...
  276. [04:07:53] <jcgregorio> which is for all intents and purposes is a single text box
  277. [04:08:15] <drumm> I wonder if google will ever go with a giant text box and button
  278. [04:08:28] <jcgregorio> from which i can find any document on the web, look up an address, find pizza, or even do math
  279. [04:08:56] <jcgregorio> it takes *a lot* of effort to make an interface that simple and effortless
  280. [04:09:56] <drumm> and a small army of deveopers, computer scientists, linguists, etc
  281. [04:10:25] * Atamido (n=Atamido@user-0ccsqt9.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]")
  282. [04:38:51] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.7/20051010]")
  283. [04:47:48] <karlUshi> jcgregorio: Google is not anymore one web site either. But many Web site. But the search box is indeed simple. These days I have started to try using Altavista again
  284. [05:49:58] <neuro`> hello
  285. [05:59:06] <karlUshi> http://www.coolweblog.com/bilodeau/archives/001707.html
  286. [05:59:10] <karlUshi> hello neuro`
  287. [06:02:51] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-88-162.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  288. [06:05:02] <neuro`> Hello Karl
  289. [06:25:12] * karlUshi is looking for a rfc822 to hatom :) I might finished to write it myself ;)
  290. [06:26:38] <karlUshi> ooops
  291. [06:26:39] <karlUshi> :)
  292. [06:34:14] * neuro` is refrshing his poor memory on rfceditor.org
  293. [06:37:34] <amanuel_> karlUshi: that link you just posted.... the man has a point
  294. [06:38:02] <neuro`> was faqs.org finally
  295. [06:40:01] <karlUshi> amanuel_: definitely, structured information is good, but for the benefits of who? More marketing profiling? I'm pretty sure all of us don't want that.
  296. [06:40:54] <amanuel_> well we here dont however the masses could be swayed easily with such simplistic view....it happens all the time
  297. [06:41:14] <karlUshi> I like microformats in the way that they could help to get better indexes for my information, that locally I can find more stuff or with my friends, sharing content in a more intelligent, but not at the price of being yet another *consumers* filling a form for free for a marketing profiler.
  298. [06:42:21] <karlUshi> for now the benefit is clearly and strongly bent towards aggregators and search engines
  299. [06:42:26] <karlUshi> not that much toward users
  300. [06:42:52] * izo__ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  301. [06:43:09] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  302. [06:43:09] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  303. [06:43:54] * izo__ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  304. [07:28:12] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit (""Happy Commuting to Tokyo - and hop 2 hours"")
  305. [08:09:48] * valmont (n=chrishol@men75-2-82-66-215-76.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
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  312. [11:14:07] <mfbot> [[attention-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3312 * Kevin Marks * (+74) Explicit Attention Formats -
  313. [13:44:59] * izo__ (n=izo@efas.allhost.fupl.asso.fr) Quit ()
  314. [13:56:40] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  315. [14:24:58] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  316. [14:56:36] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  317. [14:56:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  318. [15:15:10] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  319. [15:35:14] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  320. [15:41:08] * rtomayko (n=rtomayko@cpe-24-166-51-26.neo.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  321. [15:41:09] <jibot> rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
  322. [16:38:51] <mfbot> [[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3313 * Charles * (+381) Added another strawman model
  323. [16:44:38] <mfbot> [[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3314 * Charles * (+129) updated Orthogonal Concepts
  324. [16:45:19] <mfbot> [[show-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3315 * Charles * (+1) added a bit more spacing
  325. [16:54:46] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  326. [16:54:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  327. [16:54:47] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  328. [16:56:50] <mfbot> [[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3316 * Charles * (+273) Added more to strawman #9
  329. [17:02:49] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  330. [17:03:26] <mfbot> [[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3317 * Charles * (+136) Added more to strawman #9
  331. [17:05:14] <neuro`> Hello
  332. [17:09:14] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  333. [17:09:14] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
  334. [17:27:08] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  335. [17:27:08] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
  336. [17:27:30] <bkdelong> Morning, Chris
  337. [17:27:54] <factoryjoe> mornin
  338. [17:27:57] <factoryjoe> ;)
  339. [17:50:38] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  340. [18:18:32] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  341. [18:21:23] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  342. [18:35:08] <factoryjoe> http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/002215.html
  343. [18:36:43] * trv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  344. [18:36:43] <jibot> trv is a web-standards developer from the UK and writes at www.trovster.com
  345. [18:43:30] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  346. [18:43:30] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  347. [18:52:53] * t1m (n=t1m@pool-141-149-178-64.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  348. [19:10:27] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  349. [19:10:42] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  350. [19:26:20] * neuro` is now known as fdevillamil
  351. [19:26:38] * fdevillamil is now known as neuro`
  352. [19:27:11] * neuro` is now known as fdevillamil
  353. [19:27:59] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  354. [19:41:18] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  355. [19:59:12] * t1m (n=t1m@pool-151-203-42-88.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  356. [19:59:12] <jibot> t1m is http://tim.textdriven.com
  357. [20:11:43] * valmont (n=chrishol@men75-2-82-66-215-76.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  358. [20:14:43] <amanuel_> factoryjoe: that is a sad link you posted about SB flopping
  359. [20:15:00] <factoryjoe> yeah
  360. [20:15:06] <factoryjoe> figured we ought respond
  361. [20:16:14] <amanuel_> I think the we have to find a way to have people doing SB for selfish reasons.
  362. [20:18:01] <factoryjoe> well it's just gotta be really really easy
  363. [20:18:01] <fdevillamil> SB?
  364. [20:18:08] * amanuel_ structured blogging
  365. [20:18:15] <fdevillamil> oh OK
  366. [20:18:48] <amanuel_> factoryjoe: no it has to go beyond easy.
  367. [20:19:05] <amanuel_> it has to benefit the blogger in some way
  368. [20:19:35] <factoryjoe> yes, of course
  369. [20:19:47] <factoryjoe> it's a chicken and egg problem
  370. [20:19:52] <factoryjoe> (as usual)
  371. [20:19:55] <amanuel_> yup. :)
  372. [20:19:58] <factoryjoe> however
  373. [20:20:02] <factoryjoe> flock is helping build the egg
  374. [20:20:19] <amanuel_> so flock is the chicken ? :)
  375. [20:20:22] <amanuel_> :P
  376. [20:20:32] <factoryjoe> hehehehe
  377. [20:20:34] <factoryjoe> we'll see
  378. [20:20:37] <factoryjoe> ok, lunch time
  379. [20:20:42] <amanuel_> k
  380. [20:20:45] <factoryjoe> bbiab
  381. [20:25:59] * izo__ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
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  388. [22:38:29] * dmose (n=dmose@w002.z065106067.sjc-ca.dsl.cnc.net) has joined #microformats
  389. [22:40:01] <dmose> tantek: is there any particular reason hCalendar is specifically XHTML ?
  390. [22:40:33] <dmose> (as opposed to being applicable to HTML also)
  391. [22:42:01] <tantek> it's all compatible XHTML
  392. [22:42:15] <tantek> per XHTML 1.0 Appendix C
  393. [22:42:27] <tantek> thus usable in both XHTML and HTML
  394. [22:43:43] <Hixie_> seems like it should just be defined in terms of the DOM
  395. [22:51:17] <tantek> humans first, programmers second
  396. [22:51:30] <tantek> it's easier for content authors if we define things in terms of (X)HTML
  397. [22:51:41] <tantek> that matters more than defining it precisely in terms of the DOM for programmers
  398. [22:51:50] <Hixie_> the content authoring requirements should be in terms of HTML, sure
  399. [22:51:53] <Hixie_> i meant the parsing requirements
  400. [22:52:38] <tantek> Hixie_, consider adding to the Issues section on the hcard-parsing spec
  401. [22:52:40] <Hixie_> (fwiw, if it gets embedded into HTML5 it'll all be defined in terms of the DOM, since HTML5 is being defined in terms of the DOM, with a section on how to go DOM<->text serialisation)
  402. [22:52:46] <Hixie_> k
  403. [22:54:09] <dmose> tantek: you might want to call out the fact that's it usable as HTML specifically in the spec
  404. [22:54:57] <dmose> tantek: otherwise folks such as me who aren't standards experts are likely to feel constrained to actually write out XHTML
  405. [22:56:39] <Hixie_> uh
  406. [22:56:47] <Hixie_> the wiki won't let me create a user
  407. [22:57:04] <Hixie_> it's said "invalid username" for "hixie", "ian.hickson", and "hixiedapixie"
  408. [22:57:12] <tantek> Hixie_ see faq ;)
  409. [22:57:34] <Hixie_> there is no faq link on this page
  410. [22:57:34] <dmose> heh "hixiedapixie"
  411. [22:58:09] <kingryan> Hixie_, UserNames MuSt be WikiWords
  412. [22:58:19] <tantek> dmose, you should feel pressured to write out XHTML
  413. [22:58:48] * Hixie_ stares at the multi-page description of a valid username
  414. [22:58:59] <Hixie_> couldn't someone just give me a plain regexp i have to match :-P
  415. [22:59:12] <tantek> HixieDaPixie should work
  416. [22:59:24] <dmose> tantek: boy, another standards expert i know recently told me that that's not the case
  417. [22:59:29] <Hixie_> man, that was much harder than it should have been
  418. [22:59:33] * dmose looks at Hixie
  419. [22:59:33] <tantek> dmose, name names
  420. [22:59:47] <dmose> just did :-)
  421. [23:00:15] <kingryan> how about /[A-Z][a-z]+([A-Z][a-z]*)*/
  422. [23:00:29] <kingryan> ?
  423. [23:00:59] <Hixie_> aaaah, much better
  424. [23:01:06] <Hixie_> so much simpler than that faq :-P
  425. [23:01:24] <amanuel_> that will fail aXskdfjksdjf
  426. [23:01:50] <kingryan> WikiWords must start with [A-Z]
  427. [23:02:06] <mfbot> [[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=3318 * IanHickson * (+145) Outstanding Issues - Define in terms of the DOM.
  428. [23:02:32] <amanuel_> oh capitals? then it is fine
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  430. [23:08:57] * trovv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  431. [23:13:01] <tantek> thx hixie
  432. [23:13:10] <Hixie_> np
  433. [23:20:26] * tundraH (i=r@adsl-83-100-150-86.karoo.KCOM.COM) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69 [XULRunner 1.8/2005110309]")
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  437. [23:42:03] * dustym (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  438. [23:58:04] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3319 * DavidJanes * (+197) Implementations -

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