IRC Log for #microformats on 2005-12-15
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:07:51] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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- [00:34:48] <mfbot>
[[requirements-testing-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/requirements-testing-examples * MarkRickerby * (+3182) moved test language examples to separate page
- [00:42:30] <mfbot>
[[requirements-testing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3302 * MarkRickerby * (-3710)
- [00:44:00] <mfbot>
[[requirements-testing]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=requirements-testing&diff=0&oldid=3303 * MarkRickerby * (-57)
- [00:44:57] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3304 * MarkRickerby * (+35) Exploratory discussions: requirements-testing-examples
- [01:05:05] * tantek (n=tantek@66.114.246.42) has joined #microformats
- [01:05:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [01:05:05] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [01:08:01] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@66.114.246.47) has joined #microformats
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- [01:13:51] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-141-166.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
- [01:16:08] <tantek>
regarding people using microformats for to-do lists, check this out: http://markbernstein.org/Dec0501.html#note_36673
- [01:21:03] <karlUshi>
tantek will you be at the Technical Plenary in March?
- [01:27:54] <mfbot>
[[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3305 * Tantek * (+1) Attention Formats -
- [01:31:37] <karlUshi>
http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/blog/4
- [01:36:42] * KentBye (n=chatzill@pool-70-105-243-160.port.east.verizon.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [01:37:14] <kingryan>
uh oh, tbl has a blog
- [01:46:26] <factoryjoe>
oh man
- [01:46:28] <factoryjoe>
where?
- [01:46:42] <factoryjoe>
oh
- [01:46:43] <factoryjoe>
duh
- [01:46:58] <karlUshi>
;)
- [01:47:02] <factoryjoe>
on drupal!
- [01:47:08] <factoryjoe>
hey, i themed his calendar!
- [01:47:10] <factoryjoe>
w00t!
- [01:47:36] <karlUshi>
sorry for the slightly off-topic, I hope I will not be burnt
- [01:51:14] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [01:51:35] <kingryan>
tbl's not off topic
- [01:51:35] <kingryan>
:D
- [01:52:10] <mfbot>
[[attention]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention * Tantek * (+654)
- [01:53:11] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=3306 * Tantek * (+52) Exploratory discussions -
- [01:58:21] <tantek>
Karl, very cool. Who finally pushed TBL over the edge to starting a blog?
- [01:59:37] <mfbot>
[[attention-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-examples&diff=0&oldid=3307 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Examples -
- [01:59:53] <mfbot>
[[attention-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3308 * Tantek * (+81) Attention Formats -
- [02:02:05] <mfbot>
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3309 * Tantek * (+80) Attention Brainstorming -
- [02:03:06] <mfbot>
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3310 * Tantek * (+13) Definite -
- [02:19:22] <karlUshi>
tantek: a few of us inside the W3C Team. There is more to come ;) you will see
- [02:19:53] <karlUshi>
http://www.w3.org/2005/06/poak/
- [02:22:14] <factoryjoe>
Tantek: what's the relationship between XOXO and definition lists?
- [02:26:17] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [02:26:47] <tantek>
hey factoryjoe
- [02:26:59] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [02:27:05] <factoryjoe>
so does XOXO relate to DLs?
- [02:27:15] <tantek>
yes
- [02:27:22] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [02:27:26] <factoryjoe>
how?
- [02:27:29] <tantek>
XOXO uses DL for arbitrary properties on items
- [02:27:42] <factoryjoe>
ah ha
- [02:27:42] <factoryjoe>
ij
- [02:27:44] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [02:27:47] <factoryjoe>
that sounds right
- [02:29:13] * drumm (n=drumm@c-71-198-78-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [02:29:14] <jibot>
drumm is Neil and blogs at http://delocalizedham.com/ and is the lead developer for CivicSpace (its like DeanSpace, but better) and a crankypants
- [02:29:22] <drumm>
jibot: thats still all wrong
- [02:29:28] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [02:29:33] <factoryjoe>
?forget drumm
- [02:29:34] <jibot>
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
- [02:29:37] <factoryjoe>
damn
- [02:29:46] <tantek>
factoryjoe, see: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#Properties_of_Outline_Items
- [02:30:18] <factoryjoe>
mm
- [02:30:20] <drumm>
tantek: my connections to microformats.org are timing out
- [02:30:22] <factoryjoe>
this was a drumm question
- [02:30:27] <factoryjoe>
mine aren't
- [02:31:38] <drumm>
tantek: basically I'm trying to get a generic label/data themable function into Drupal. The last couple times I tried using <dl> people said that wasn't a valid use of those tags
- [02:32:07] <factoryjoe>
drumm: don't listen to other people
- [02:32:17] <factoryjoe>
it's the most semantic thing you've got in xhtml
- [02:32:28] <factoryjoe>
obviously you'd use a label in there too
- [02:33:09] <drumm>
factoryjoe: open source is all about consensus. sometimes you have to listen to people to get that.
- [02:33:28] <drumm>
label?
- [02:33:47] <drumm>
<dt><label>foo</label></dt>?
- [02:34:21] <factoryjoe>
right
- [02:34:36] <drumm>
factoryjoe: aren't labels only for forms?
- [02:34:45] <factoryjoe>
drumm: while i agree in principal, design by committee fails
- [02:34:56] <factoryjoe>
but regardless
- [02:35:02] <mfbot>
[[attention-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3311 * Tantek * (+115) See Also -
- [02:35:03] <factoryjoe>
i think using dls is fine
- [02:35:55] <drumm>
right, but I want something better to cite than "factoryjoe says so"
- [02:36:02] <tantek>
no, can't use <label> like that
- [02:36:05] <tantek>
i tried but it's wrong
- [02:36:06] <factoryjoe>
?!
- [02:36:08] <factoryjoe>
really?
- [02:36:10] <tantek>
<label> is only for form elements
- [02:36:11] <tantek>
yes
- [02:36:16] <tantek>
can't even use it for <img/>
- [02:36:18] <factoryjoe>
well yeah
- [02:36:22] <tantek>
like as an image caption etc.
- [02:36:23] <drumm>
I knew it! design by comittee works.
- [02:36:29] <factoryjoe>
you use the label inside a dt inside a form for an input
- [02:36:31] <tantek>
drumm is right
- [02:36:42] <factoryjoe>
drumm, this is for a form, n'est-ce pas?
- [02:36:48] <tantek>
drumm, what is the problem with using DLs?
- [02:36:53] <tantek>
what is the specific objection?
- [02:36:56] <drumm>
factoryjoe: nope, just plain old data
- [02:37:20] <drumm>
tantek: just want something strong t cite since the w3c spec is unclear on this
- [02:37:34] <drumm>
I know someone will disagree
- [02:37:49] <tantek>
actually W3C spec is clear if you read it very carefully
- [02:38:10] <tantek>
W3C spec gives precise definition for DL/DT/DD
- [02:38:20] <tantek>
and then throws in a completely random example from left-field
- [02:38:21] <factoryjoe>
oh alright
- [02:38:23] <factoryjoe>
that's fine then
- [02:38:23] <drumm>
heh, need a clear interpretation
- [02:38:26] <factoryjoe>
i presumed it was a form
- [02:38:28] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [02:38:28] <tantek>
and people remember the random example unfortunately
- [02:38:30] <tantek>
the trick is
- [02:38:38] <tantek>
that examples in W3C specs are *informative* only
- [02:38:41] <tantek>
not *normative*
- [02:38:52] <tantek>
and thus if the example disagrees or otherwise violates the other part of the spec
- [02:38:56] <tantek>
then the example is wrong
- [02:39:04] <tantek>
and the definitions in the spec are right
- [02:39:35] * karlUshi agrees with tantek on that.
- [02:39:42] <DanC>
I find that's sort of pissing-in-the-wind. As you say, people pay attention to the examples, so it's important to get them right
- [02:39:50] * tantek needs to write a short essay about how to read W3C specs.
- [02:40:14] <tantek>
DanC, true, it is important to get them right.
- [02:40:18] <karlUshi>
DanC: yes but the specs should specifically identified what is normative and what is not :)
- [02:40:29] <tantek>
But *when* mistakes are made, we need to be up front about how to interpret them. ;)
- [02:40:38] <tantek>
karlUshi++
- [02:40:51] <karlUshi>
and pissing in the wind ;) is fine if you have the wind in your back btw ;)
- [02:40:56] <DanC>
normative shmormative. What matters is the understanding that people take away
- [02:41:32] <DanC>
the question is whether it's more cost-effective to fix old specs or write "how to decode W3C specs" articles
- [02:42:03] <karlUshi>
http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#norm-informative-gp
- [02:42:17] <drumm>
now what about factoryjoe's forms marked up with <dl>? I remember him being very excited about doing that in his theme a long time ago. During that phase where he saw everything as a <dl>
- [02:42:42] <karlUshi>
dl = definition list
- [02:42:48] <karlUshi>
dt = definition term
- [02:42:53] <DanC>
I find the "Why care?" rationale for #norm-informative-gp completely un-persuasive
- [02:42:56] <karlUshi>
dd = definition description
- [02:44:43] <karlUshi>
DanC: You can't cover all examples cases in a specification :) It's why I wish that there was with each specification a kind of Good Practices guide. That would help a lot to have a non normative reference of accumulated use cases
- [02:44:51] <karlUshi>
And that could be updated time to time
- [02:45:00] <DanC>
rather than saying "make sure people can tell the normative from the informative", I'd just say "be careful to make your spec consistent. Consider making test cases out of all your examples so that they'll be checked by machine."
- [02:45:15] <jcgregorio>
implementers-guide++
- [02:45:38] <jcgregorio>
that was actually done for Atom
- [02:45:51] <karlUshi>
yep joe :)
- [02:46:00] <factoryjoe>
yeah, what about that?
- [02:46:02] <DanC>
oh? I don't recall seeing the Atom implemetor's guide...
- [02:46:04] <factoryjoe>
was i off my rocker?
- [02:46:05] * DanC googles...
- [02:46:08] <factoryjoe>
and not able to read specs?
- [02:46:20] <jcgregorio>
no, not the implementers guide
- [02:46:30] <karlUshi>
DanC: And you requirement is covered here too ;) http://www.w3.org/TR/qaframe-spec/#write-sample-gp
- [02:46:34] <jcgregorio>
the automatic checking of spec examples against the RNC
- [02:46:55] <karlUshi>
QA Frame Spec is not a law, but a tool for people to help write specifications. It's the cool aspect of it
- [02:47:13] <DanC>
but what's cool about #norm-informative-gp ?
- [02:47:18] <DanC>
how does it help?
- [02:47:52] <jcgregorio>
it doesn't, it reads like an excuse, do as we say not as we do...
- [02:48:34] <DanC>
quite
- [02:48:39] <karlUshi>
it helps people to not stay in a square box. I call it the "first time syndrome"
- [02:49:06] <karlUshi>
You give an example or something which is done in one way, and everyone will stay in the limit of this example
- [02:49:23] <karlUshi>
even if there's more than one way of doing or using it
- [02:49:49] <jcgregorio>
the first time someone reads a spec they scan from beginning to end looking for charts, diagrams and examples
- [02:50:05] <karlUshi>
yes joe.
- [02:50:14] <DanC>
yup. I skip over all the crud before the hello-world example
- [02:50:28] <factoryjoe>
karlUshi: yes joe, i was off my rocker?
- [02:50:36] <factoryjoe>
ok
- [02:50:42] <DanC>
for lots of specs, I hit the end of the spec before i find hello-world. :(
- [02:50:46] <jcgregorio>
if you're lucky they'll actually read some of the spec text, but only after their their first pass fails the validator
- [02:50:51] <karlUshi>
I hate the hello world example ;) as much as the FOAF example for RDF ;)
- [02:51:18] <DanC>
you hate the hello world example? I think that disqualifies you from helping people read specs
- [02:51:34] <DanC>
the RDF primer is an example in HOW NOT TO WRITE SPECS
- [02:51:42] <jcgregorio>
people learn by examples
- [02:51:58] <jcgregorio>
the spec text is for lawyering when implementations don't interop
- [02:52:55] <DanC>
interestingly, I've had this very debate (about the successive-elaboration-by-example style vs exhaustive enumeration) with the SPARQL editors...
- [02:52:57] <karlUshi>
DanC: agreed for RDF Primer. I tried to translate it in French. Very very very bad
- [02:53:08] <jcgregorio>
there is an unfortunate trend towards making specs dry, lifeless and rigid
- [02:53:18] <jcgregorio>
is Kendall an editor of that?
- [02:53:30] <jcgregorio>
editor of Sparql, that is...
- [02:53:39] <DanC>
I convinced the editor of http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/ but for http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-protocol/ , I only got the editor to put lots of examples at the end
- [02:53:49] <karlUshi>
"Hello world" example hate: explanation -> Because it's always the same boring example, no variations, no imagination, putting people in Boxes. It's why.
- [02:54:01] <jcgregorio>
A good spec should read like the old RFC's
- [02:54:03] <karlUshi>
at least, if it was written "Bonjour le monde"
- [02:54:36] <jcgregorio>
you read them and they're like sitting across from Jon Postel and he's explaining to you how to implement the protocol
- [02:54:55] <jcgregorio>
and occastionally scribbling a diagram on the back of an envelope during the discussion
- [02:55:07] <DanC>
really, jcgregorio ? I don't recall any/many RFCs like that. I find RFCs to be the other extremem, by and large. Can you think of an example?
- [02:55:29] <jcgregorio>
the really oooold ones, like TCP/IP
- [02:55:34] * jcgregorio searching...
- [02:56:12] <karlUshi>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2005Jul/0006.html
- [02:56:25] <karlUshi>
that was an interesting thread too.
- [02:57:03] * DanC takes another look at http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc793.html
- [02:57:06] <karlUshi>
jcgregorio: many of the specs are indeed too dry they don't tell stories, they don't give the idea of what is the value of the language
- [02:59:42] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Success)
- [02:59:42] <DanC>
my mantra is "story telling and test cases". some days I think the spec is hardly worth writing down
- [02:59:58] <jcgregorio>
yes
- [03:00:10] <jcgregorio>
793 is a good example
- [03:00:36] <jcgregorio>
"""At a gateway between networks, the internet datagram is "unwrapped"
- [03:00:38] <jcgregorio>
from its local packet and examined to determine through which network
- [03:00:40] <jcgregorio>
the internet datagram should travel next. The internet datagram is
- [03:00:42] <jcgregorio>
then "wrapped" in a local packet suitable to the next network and
- [03:00:44] * tantek (n=tantek@66.114.246.42) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [03:00:44] <jcgregorio>
routed to the next gateway, or to the final destination.
- [03:00:46] <jcgregorio>
"""
- [03:01:27] <jcgregorio>
now you couldn't write that today without a having to include a thesis on the definition of "unwrapped" and "wrapped"
- [03:01:29] <DanC>
There clearly aren't enough Postels to go around. I like Guy Steele's Java spec too.
- [03:02:37] <DanC>
note that RFC793 wasn't the 1st draft of a TCP spec; it cites a 1974 design document
- [03:03:17] <DanC>
Maybe every spec should be re-written 7 years after the original design/deployment ;-)
- [03:03:33] <jcgregorio>
I like that rule
- [03:03:50] <DanC>
RFC793 has diagrams with ftp and such on top; i.e. they had lots of experience with TCP in context
- [03:04:35] <jcgregorio>
yeah, rough concensus and running code goes a loooong way
- [03:04:50] <DanC>
hmm... the HTML 4 spec was largely a rewrite by a professional tech writer, but it almost feels like it's time to do it again
- [03:05:36] <karlUshi>
DanC: spec fixed, and there should be a perpetual guide of implementation and recipes. Somehow I like the way PHP site has done it. Far to be perfect, but there's an idea I like about it. A part of the spec of the language and a forum under it. It could be even a wiki and/or a list of weblog post aggregation
- [03:05:40] * DanC wonders how many man-hours go into something like technical review of the Steves book(s)
- [03:06:23] <karlUshi>
html 4.01 spec rewriting ++
- [03:06:31] <DanC>
well, one perspective is that there *is* a perpetual guide of implementation and recipies for HTML; visit your local bookstore.
- [03:07:00] <DanC>
the question is: how much of that should W3C try to... organize/control/steer
- [03:07:17] <karlUshi>
not control, put the platform for it
- [03:07:30] <DanC>
er... platform... like the web?
- [03:07:30] <karlUshi>
a bit like esw.w3.org
- [03:07:33] <jcgregorio>
yes, let's not cut into the money I make writing for XML.com :)
- [03:07:41] <karlUshi>
ahaha joe ;)
- [03:07:56] <DanC>
but why esw.W3.ORG? why not xml.com and ora.com and the like?
- [03:08:07] <DanC>
W3C owns/controls esw.w3.org
- [03:08:18] <karlUshi>
Danc: very simple answer
- [03:09:01] <karlUshi>
people wants a point of reference, no matter what you do they want to find a reference information
- [03:09:03] * DanC presumes, given lack of objections or other topics arising, that nobody minds using this channel for something only tangentially related to microformats
- [03:09:16] <karlUshi>
see the discussion which has happened before between joe and drum
- [03:09:20] <karlUshi>
:)
- [03:09:48] <karlUshi>
DanC: I'm surprised Tantek didn't cut off the discussion yet ;)
- [03:10:06] <karlUshi>
There's a #w3c channel on freenode as well
- [03:10:28] <DanC>
yes, people would like W3C to give them a handy and correct answer to every question that they have. But is it realistic for us to try? Isn't it *better* to do a good job for a smaller audience, and make it clear that the larger audience should try google or their local bookstore/user-group/classroom?
- [03:10:58] <karlUshi>
DanC have you seen the number of books which tells crap
- [03:11:15] <jcgregorio>
so the Atom Syndication Format doc should have just been an RNC?
- [03:11:19] <DanC>
no, really? there are crappy books? I had _no idea_.
- [03:11:30] <karlUshi>
At least once a month I go to a bookstore to the computing section and starts to look at the books
- [03:11:43] <karlUshi>
For HTML, it's like banging the head on the table
- [03:11:53] <karlUshi>
DanC: ;)
- [03:12:10] <DanC>
karlUshi, are you familiar with Sturgeon's Law? http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/s/SturgeonsLaw.html why would you expect your local bookstore to be exempt?
- [03:12:12] <karlUshi>
And university/class curriculum is even worse
- [03:12:33] * karlUshi knows Esturgeon for the caviar
- [03:12:40] <karlUshi>
A good gastronomy law
- [03:12:51] <factoryjoe>
ok, i'm out
- [03:12:53] <factoryjoe>
cya
- [03:12:55] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [03:13:10] * DanC wonders if we should count that as an objection
- [03:13:20] * edsu (n=esummers@c-24-12-123-215.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [03:13:29] <jcgregorio>
I go the bookstore to the computing section and get scared by all the people on the covers of wrox books looking out at me
- [03:13:41] <karlUshi>
ahaha
- [03:13:42] <karlUshi>
:D
- [03:14:21] <DanC>
just an RNC... hmm... good question... in some sense, yes... but... the rest of the spec is there for social reasons... it's an artifact that is the result of the consensus process.
- [03:15:23] <jcgregorio>
hmm, maybe I should come up with an RNC like grammar for HTTP transactions
- [03:15:29] <DanC>
well... I suppose a really excellent spec is all three: (1) the facts/RNC (2) the words that demonstrate consent of the governed (3) an effective teaching artifact
- [03:15:41] <karlUshi>
http://www.google.com/search?q=rnc
- [03:15:44] <karlUshi>
hmmm
- [03:15:52] * karlUshi wonders what RNC is
- [03:15:53] <jcgregorio>
that plus RNC and I could boil the Atom Publishing Protocol down into a single page
- [03:16:01] <jcgregorio>
Relax-NG compact
- [03:16:03] <jcgregorio>
sorry
- [03:16:11] <karlUshi>
oooh thanks
- [03:17:24] * DanC is conflicted... I'm really borrowing from family time here, but this is an interesting discussion
- [03:17:55] <karlUshi>
DanC: family time is more important
- [03:18:11] <DanC>
a part of me is always searching for the most concise formal description of something... but (2) and (3) are important too
- [03:18:26] <jcgregorio>
yeah, we'll always be here
- [03:39:59] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [03:39:59] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [03:40:13] <amanuel_>
delicious is still down :(
- [03:40:14] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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- [03:53:29] <karlUshi>
amanuel_: try blogmarks.net :)
- [03:54:02] <amanuel_>
heh perhaps after I get my data off them :)
- [03:54:53] <drumm>
amanuel_: hey. are we done with that drupal-devel theme debate yet? :)
- [03:55:46] <amanuel_>
?
- [03:56:02] <amanuel_>
drumm: theme?
- [03:56:49] <amanuel_>
hey we are talking in microformats :) didn't know you hang here too
- [03:56:59] <drumm>
amanuel_: nevermind. wrong drupal person. was just suprised to find you here too
- [03:57:25] <amanuel_>
well there is cools stuff happening here too :)
- [03:57:32] * drumm will prolly leave soon. idling in 6 irc rooms is too much
- [03:58:36] <karlUshi>
drumm: ??? :) Right now I have 15 IRC channels open on my xchat
- [03:58:50] <amanuel_>
I usually top out at 3-4 anymore than that, the universe tends to get everyone to start talking stuff of interest at the same time.
- [03:59:23] <karlUshi>
ahaha ;) because you actually read them ;)
- [04:00:25] <amanuel_>
;)
- [04:01:17] <karlUshi>
http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/wlg/8715
- [04:01:22] <karlUshi>
Are we getting stupid?
- [04:04:02] <drumm>
I don't think simplicity makes you dumb
- [04:04:55] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [04:06:35] * jcgregorio points at the 'interface' to Google...
- [04:07:53] <jcgregorio>
which is for all intents and purposes is a single text box
- [04:08:15] <drumm>
I wonder if google will ever go with a giant text box and button
- [04:08:28] <jcgregorio>
from which i can find any document on the web, look up an address, find pizza, or even do math
- [04:08:56] <jcgregorio>
it takes *a lot* of effort to make an interface that simple and effortless
- [04:09:56] <drumm>
and a small army of deveopers, computer scientists, linguists, etc
- [04:10:25] * Atamido (n=Atamido@user-0ccsqt9.cable.mindspring.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5 [Firefox 1.0.6/20050716]")
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- [04:47:48] <karlUshi>
jcgregorio: Google is not anymore one web site either. But many Web site. But the search box is indeed simple. These days I have started to try using Altavista again
- [05:49:58] <neuro`>
hello
- [05:59:06] <karlUshi>
http://www.coolweblog.com/bilodeau/archives/001707.html
- [05:59:10] <karlUshi>
hello neuro`
- [06:02:51] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-88-162.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:05:02] <neuro`>
Hello Karl
- [06:25:12] * karlUshi is looking for a rfc822 to hatom :) I might finished to write it myself ;)
- [06:26:38] <karlUshi>
ooops
- [06:26:39] <karlUshi>
:)
- [06:34:14] * neuro` is refrshing his poor memory on rfceditor.org
- [06:37:34] <amanuel_>
karlUshi: that link you just posted.... the man has a point
- [06:38:02] <neuro`>
was faqs.org finally
- [06:40:01] <karlUshi>
amanuel_: definitely, structured information is good, but for the benefits of who? More marketing profiling? I'm pretty sure all of us don't want that.
- [06:40:54] <amanuel_>
well we here dont however the masses could be swayed easily with such simplistic view....it happens all the time
- [06:41:14] <karlUshi>
I like microformats in the way that they could help to get better indexes for my information, that locally I can find more stuff or with my friends, sharing content in a more intelligent, but not at the price of being yet another *consumers* filling a form for free for a marketing profiler.
- [06:42:21] <karlUshi>
for now the benefit is clearly and strongly bent towards aggregators and search engines
- [06:42:26] <karlUshi>
not that much toward users
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- [06:43:09] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [11:14:07] <mfbot>
[[attention-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-formats&diff=0&oldid=3312 * Kevin Marks * (+74) Explicit Attention Formats -
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- [14:56:36] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [14:56:36] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [15:15:10] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
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- [15:41:09] <jibot>
rtomayko is tracking the free culture movement http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/freeculture/
- [16:38:51] <mfbot>
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3313 * Charles * (+381) Added another strawman model
- [16:44:38] <mfbot>
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3314 * Charles * (+129) updated Orthogonal Concepts
- [16:45:19] <mfbot>
[[show-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3315 * Charles * (+1) added a bit more spacing
- [16:54:46] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [16:54:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [16:54:47] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [16:56:50] <mfbot>
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3316 * Charles * (+273) Added more to strawman #9
- [17:02:49] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [17:03:26] <mfbot>
[[show-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=show-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=3317 * Charles * (+136) Added more to strawman #9
- [17:05:14] <neuro`>
Hello
- [17:09:14] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:09:14] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com - Is At ApacheCon
- [17:27:08] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-24-6-66-197.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:27:08] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp and Rhyzomatic and is working towards open source world domination
- [17:27:30] <bkdelong>
Morning, Chris
- [17:27:54] <factoryjoe>
mornin
- [17:27:57] <factoryjoe>
;)
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- [18:35:08] <factoryjoe>
http://paul.kedrosky.com/archives/002215.html
- [18:36:43] * trv (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:36:43] <jibot>
trv is a web-standards developer from the UK and writes at www.trovster.com
- [18:43:30] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [18:43:30] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [19:26:20] * neuro` is now known as fdevillamil
- [19:26:38] * fdevillamil is now known as neuro`
- [19:27:11] * neuro` is now known as fdevillamil
- [19:27:59] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
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- [19:59:12] <jibot>
t1m is http://tim.textdriven.com
- [20:11:43] * valmont (n=chrishol@men75-2-82-66-215-76.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:14:43] <amanuel_>
factoryjoe: that is a sad link you posted about SB flopping
- [20:15:00] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [20:15:06] <factoryjoe>
figured we ought respond
- [20:16:14] <amanuel_>
I think the we have to find a way to have people doing SB for selfish reasons.
- [20:18:01] <factoryjoe>
well it's just gotta be really really easy
- [20:18:01] <fdevillamil>
SB?
- [20:18:08] * amanuel_ structured blogging
- [20:18:15] <fdevillamil>
oh OK
- [20:18:48] <amanuel_>
factoryjoe: no it has to go beyond easy.
- [20:19:05] <amanuel_>
it has to benefit the blogger in some way
- [20:19:35] <factoryjoe>
yes, of course
- [20:19:47] <factoryjoe>
it's a chicken and egg problem
- [20:19:52] <factoryjoe>
(as usual)
- [20:19:55] <amanuel_>
yup. :)
- [20:19:58] <factoryjoe>
however
- [20:20:02] <factoryjoe>
flock is helping build the egg
- [20:20:19] <amanuel_>
so flock is the chicken ? :)
- [20:20:22] <amanuel_>
:P
- [20:20:32] <factoryjoe>
hehehehe
- [20:20:34] <factoryjoe>
we'll see
- [20:20:37] <factoryjoe>
ok, lunch time
- [20:20:42] <amanuel_>
k
- [20:20:45] <factoryjoe>
bbiab
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- [22:40:01] <dmose>
tantek: is there any particular reason hCalendar is specifically XHTML ?
- [22:40:33] <dmose>
(as opposed to being applicable to HTML also)
- [22:42:01] <tantek>
it's all compatible XHTML
- [22:42:15] <tantek>
per XHTML 1.0 Appendix C
- [22:42:27] <tantek>
thus usable in both XHTML and HTML
- [22:43:43] <Hixie_>
seems like it should just be defined in terms of the DOM
- [22:51:17] <tantek>
humans first, programmers second
- [22:51:30] <tantek>
it's easier for content authors if we define things in terms of (X)HTML
- [22:51:41] <tantek>
that matters more than defining it precisely in terms of the DOM for programmers
- [22:51:50] <Hixie_>
the content authoring requirements should be in terms of HTML, sure
- [22:51:53] <Hixie_>
i meant the parsing requirements
- [22:52:38] <tantek>
Hixie_, consider adding to the Issues section on the hcard-parsing spec
- [22:52:40] <Hixie_>
(fwiw, if it gets embedded into HTML5 it'll all be defined in terms of the DOM, since HTML5 is being defined in terms of the DOM, with a section on how to go DOM<->text serialisation)
- [22:52:46] <Hixie_>
k
- [22:54:09] <dmose>
tantek: you might want to call out the fact that's it usable as HTML specifically in the spec
- [22:54:57] <dmose>
tantek: otherwise folks such as me who aren't standards experts are likely to feel constrained to actually write out XHTML
- [22:56:39] <Hixie_>
uh
- [22:56:47] <Hixie_>
the wiki won't let me create a user
- [22:57:04] <Hixie_>
it's said "invalid username" for "hixie", "ian.hickson", and "hixiedapixie"
- [22:57:12] <tantek>
Hixie_ see faq ;)
- [22:57:34] <Hixie_>
there is no faq link on this page
- [22:57:34] <dmose>
heh "hixiedapixie"
- [22:58:09] <kingryan>
Hixie_, UserNames MuSt be WikiWords
- [22:58:19] <tantek>
dmose, you should feel pressured to write out XHTML
- [22:58:48] * Hixie_ stares at the multi-page description of a valid username
- [22:58:59] <Hixie_>
couldn't someone just give me a plain regexp i have to match :-P
- [22:59:12] <tantek>
HixieDaPixie should work
- [22:59:24] <dmose>
tantek: boy, another standards expert i know recently told me that that's not the case
- [22:59:29] <Hixie_>
man, that was much harder than it should have been
- [22:59:33] * dmose looks at Hixie
- [22:59:33] <tantek>
dmose, name names
- [22:59:47] <dmose>
just did :-)
- [23:00:15] <kingryan>
how about /[A-Z][a-z]+([A-Z][a-z]*)*/
- [23:00:29] <kingryan>
?
- [23:00:59] <Hixie_>
aaaah, much better
- [23:01:06] <Hixie_>
so much simpler than that faq :-P
- [23:01:24] <amanuel_>
that will fail aXskdfjksdjf
- [23:01:50] <kingryan>
WikiWords must start with [A-Z]
- [23:02:06] <mfbot>
[[hcard-parsing]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-parsing&diff=0&oldid=3318 * IanHickson * (+145) Outstanding Issues - Define in terms of the DOM.
- [23:02:32] <amanuel_>
oh capitals? then it is fine
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- [23:13:01] <tantek>
thx hixie
- [23:13:10] <Hixie_>
np
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- [23:58:04] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=3319 * DavidJanes * (+197) Implementations -
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