IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:38:04] <TantekC> t1m, you should use the most appropriate semantic XHTML elements that are available for the particular example as well
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  3. [00:40:38] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  4. [00:51:51] <t1m> I'm using <address> for the vcard with a link for the url & fn values
  5. [00:52:02] <t1m> it's ok to omit an org right?
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  9. [01:18:32] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4038 * DrErnie * (+284) Datatypes in HTML -
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  11. [01:27:43] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4039 * DrErnie * (+515) Examples - Java, SQL
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  15. [01:33:27] <tantek> yes, org is not required
  16. [01:34:15] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4040 * DrErnie * (+154) Examples - Python
  17. [01:36:26] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4041 * DrErnie * (+118) Examples - Perl
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  19. [01:39:47] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4042 * DrErnie * (+197) Examples - PHP
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  22. [01:47:08] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  23. [01:47:13] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4043 * DrErnie * (+191) Examples -
  24. [01:48:24] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4044 * DrErnie * (+0) Examples - nil
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  27. [01:57:45] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4045 * DrErnie * (+968) Criteria -
  28. [02:02:21] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4046 * DrErnie * (+100) Datatypes in HTML -
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  43. [06:49:22] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4047 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+185) last-modified currently aspires to partial page update
  44. [06:49:43] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4048 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+18) Add name
  45. [06:51:14] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4049 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+436) last-updated aspires to cover atom:updated
  46. [06:52:30] <mfbot> [[buttons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=4050 * Rohit * (+1095) requests -
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  48. [07:00:36] <mfbot> [[last-modified-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=last-modified-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4051 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+11) last-modified is used by hCalendar
  49. [07:09:33] <cgriego> so the hAtom nomenclature debate is supposed to end the 10th, after that what will need to happen to take hAtom from draft to spec?
  50. [07:24:55] <TantekC> cgriego, in reality it will end when it will end. there is no need for such artificial deadlines.
  51. [07:29:08] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4052 * Tantek * (+261) Nomenclature -
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  53. [08:24:38] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  54. [08:31:32] <Frederic> Hello Karl
  55. [08:58:14] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  56. [08:58:14] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  62. [14:16:07] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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  66. [15:34:42] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4053 * Cgriego * (+30) Added reuses of 'summary' to atom:summary nomenclature
  67. [15:35:17] <cgriego> Tantek, what I meant was "planned to end" instead of "should end"
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  75. [16:30:09] <jibot> t1m is http://tim.textdriven.com/
  76. [16:45:42] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  77. [16:45:43] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  80. [17:01:47] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  81. [17:01:48] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  90. [17:39:35] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  91. [18:03:37] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  92. [18:04:06] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  93. [18:04:06] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  94. [18:37:14] * gregelin (n=chatzill@216-80-120-72.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com) has joined #microformats
  95. [18:39:41] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2445P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  96. [18:39:41] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann (Timezone: +0100)
  97. [18:39:58] <gregelin> /nickserv ACCESS add GregElin
  98. [18:40:49] <RobertBachmann> grettings.
  99. [18:41:11] <RobertBachmann> gregelin: you should use /msg nickserv ...
  100. [18:43:33] <gregelin> thanks.
  101. [18:48:43] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  102. [18:48:44] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  103. [18:49:41] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  104. [18:49:41] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  105. [18:50:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  106. [18:57:03] <mfbot> [[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4054 * RobertBachmann * (+7) Examples - C
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  110. [20:05:16] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4055 * Tantek * (+1259) vcalendar summary IS NOT the same as atom summary in meaning, please don't confuse them
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  114. [20:36:03] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT+1000
  115. [20:37:11] <jibot> MacDome is a WebKit engineer who hacks on XML, XHTML, XSLT and SVG
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  119. [21:04:34] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4056 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+1781) Atom and entry titles should be different things
  120. [21:07:25] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4057 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+0) Fix url formatting
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  126. [21:54:00] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann (Timezone: +0100)
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  129. [22:20:38] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4058 * RyanKing * (+342) Tantek -
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  132. [22:26:30] <jibot> tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  135. [22:36:37] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  136. [22:44:57] <RobertBachmann> Quick thought regarding HTML's lang attribute (xml:lang for XHTML and other XML formats) for denoting the language of some microformated text (especially "text-heavy" microformats like hAtom, hReview, hResume, etc.)
  137. [22:44:57] <RobertBachmann> AFAIK there wasn't much discussion about this but I think we should talk about it and perhaps collect some info somewhere on the wiki.
  138. [22:45:20] <tantek> I believe it is in the FAQ for hReview
  139. [22:45:24] <tantek> in short
  140. [22:45:37] <tantek> use the "lang" attribute in HTML and XHTML as it is the most compatible
  141. [22:46:03] <tantek> if you are publishing XHTML 1.0, then it is harmless to also specify xml:lang, though fewer implementations will consume it
  142. [22:46:28] <tantek> if you are publishing XHTML 1.1 or plain XML on the Web, ask yourself who are you publishing for
  143. [22:49:52] <kingryan> reminder: http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/09/free-pizza/
  144. [22:55:21] <Frederic> Hello Ryan, tantek
  145. [22:55:28] <RobertBachmann> tantek: I found something here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Language But I found no direct recommendation (i.e: authors SHOULD specify the language of the review)
  146. [22:56:43] <kingryan> RobertBachmann: language is handled at a lower layer in "the stack" than µf's
  147. [22:56:51] <kingryan> namely the (x)html layer
  148. [22:56:54] <tantek> yes
  149. [22:57:07] <kingryan> so the problem of language in markup is much bigger than µf's
  150. [22:57:13] <kingryan> it's web-wide
  151. [22:57:49] <tantek> Robert, that's right. hReview says to use the 'lang' attribute if you need to specify language.
  152. [22:57:56] <tantek> there is no reason to *require* 'lang'
  153. [22:58:14] <tantek> all you will get is a bunch of bad data, since templates will almost always have lang="en" to start with
  154. [22:58:20] <tantek> and get reused for all langauges
  155. [22:58:22] <tantek> languages even
  156. [22:59:19] <kingryan> any europeans here have experience with XTech?
  157. [23:00:05] <kingryan> I'm writing a presentation abstract and could use some feedback
  158. [23:01:26] <RobertBachmann> I see the problem with templates and I prefer no information instead of wrong information.
  159. [23:01:26] <RobertBachmann> However, we might want to recommend it?
  160. [23:02:22] <tantek> I don't see any reason to recommend it above and beyond what (X)HTML already says
  161. [23:02:29] <kingryan> RobertBachmann: if we're going to reccomend it, it should be for more than hreview
  162. [23:02:40] <kingryan> its a bigger than hreview
  163. [23:02:48] <tantek> but the bigger question is, why?
  164. [23:02:58] <tantek> why bother recommending it for microformats in particular?
  165. [23:04:06] <kingryan> only under "semantic xhtml" principles which are background to µf's
  166. [23:04:24] <kingryan> btw, if anyone wants to read my xtech proposal and give feedback: http://theryanking.com/xtech.mkd
  167. [23:05:24] <RobertBachmann> >only under "semantic xhtml" principles which are background to µf's< sounds good.
  168. [23:05:56] <kingryan> there's certainly room for more education in semantic xhtml
  169. [23:06:00] <_fil_> "the DRY principle"?
  170. [23:06:02] <kingryan> not sure what form that should take, though
  171. [23:06:07] <tantek> _fil_, yes
  172. [23:06:09] <kingryan> Don't Repeat Yourself
  173. [23:06:34] <_fil_> it should be spelled out
  174. [23:06:50] <_fil_> IMHO
  175. [23:07:01] <_fil_> NSYFWTRWPK
  176. [23:07:38] <_fil_> otherwise it's fully readable for me
  177. [23:07:39] <tantek> it should not be spelled out unless there is a good reason to do so
  178. [23:07:55] <_fil_> well... TTBU is one reason
  179. [23:07:59] <kingryan> I'm looking for a link
  180. [23:08:01] <tantek> there is no need to make the extra work for ourselves of duplicating what (X)HTML says
  181. [23:08:12] <tantek> there is plenty of better work to do
  182. [23:08:16] <kingryan> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself
  183. [23:08:17] <tantek> more important work to do
  184. [23:08:24] <tantek> than just to repeat what it says in other specs
  185. [23:08:41] <_fil_> yeah no problem with the principle in itself
  186. [23:09:07] <kingryan> yeah, and not just specs
  187. [23:09:08] <KevinMarks> I did some notes about language about a year ago
  188. [23:09:13] <_fil_> I'm just mentionong to kingryan that s/he should spell it out, at least for me if I'm in the intended audience
  189. [23:09:14] <kingryan> no need to repeat others arguements
  190. [23:09:22] <KevinMarks> worht moving some of it to microfromats,org perhaps
  191. [23:09:39] <kingryan> _fil_, I added a link
  192. [23:10:33] <KevinMarks> http://epeus.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_epeus_archive.html#110513233021128637
  193. [23:10:42] <_fil_> is it meant for reading or listening to?
  194. [23:11:23] <kingryan> who are you talking to, _fil_?
  195. [23:11:31] <_fil_> to you :)
  196. [23:11:35] <_fil_> that's feedback
  197. [23:11:53] <kingryan> ah, this is just a proposal for doing a presentation
  198. [23:12:01] <kingryan> http://xtech.org/2006/call.asp
  199. [23:12:43] <_fil_> well my feedback is: I've read it and understood all, find it wexll written; one small problem: I had to look up one expression
  200. [23:12:52] <kingryan> cool
  201. [23:13:13] <_fil_> TTBU was meant for "Trying to be understood"
  202. [23:13:33] <_fil_> and NSYFWTRWPK well, I already don't remember :)
  203. [23:13:37] <kingryan> ah, gotcha
  204. [23:13:59] <kingryan> Not So Your Find What To Read When People Know?
  205. [23:14:49] <tantek> Perhaps use the <abbr title="abbreviation">abbr</abbr> element.
  206. [23:15:21] <_fil_> title="Not Something You F** Want To Read Without Prior Knowledge"
  207. [23:16:28] <kingryan> nice accronym
  208. [23:16:43] <kingryan> this is why I ask for feedback :D
  209. [23:17:02] <kingryan> I forget what constitutes "prior knowledge"
  210. [23:17:07] <RobertBachmann> regarding lang: Maybe not in the semantic XHTML design principles but rather in the tutorials for the specific microformats once we have them. (just 1-2 sentences which give a brief introduction and a pointer to the relevant part of the HTML spec)?
  211. [23:18:01] <_fil_> you can suppose a working knowledge of English and computing
  212. [23:18:11] <_fil_> but no knowledge at all of acronyms
  213. [23:18:38] <RobertBachmann> kingryan: (XTech) Maybe you want to include that microformated HTML degrades gracefuly?
  214. [23:19:17] <kingryan> yeah, that's a good point
  215. [23:20:19] <_fil_> that it's easy to µformat a template
  216. [23:20:38] <_fil_> with a few examples
  217. [23:20:43] <kingryan> I'll cover than under the lower-barrier-to-entry section
  218. [23:20:54] <kingryan> remember, this is just an abstract, not the whole presentation/paper
  219. [23:21:00] <_fil_> yes, ok
  220. [23:21:17] <kingryan> I'm just trying to get a presentation accepted at this point
  221. [23:21:32] <_fil_> then, it's not an abstract of your presentation, it's an introduction to µformats
  222. [23:21:50] <_fil_> you could add a list of points you're going to make
  223. [23:22:50] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
  224. [23:23:23] <kingryan> ok
  225. [23:23:29] <_fil_> give a list of case uses (hcard and greasemonkey, hatom and using a page in a feed reader)
  226. [23:23:31] <kingryan> I've only got 500 words to work with
  227. [23:23:58] <_fil_> does DRY count for one or 3 words :)
  228. [23:24:21] <kingryan> 1, if its abbreviated
  229. [23:24:22] <kingryan> :D
  230. [23:24:48] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2456P010.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("g2g. bye")
  231. [23:25:00] <kingryan> ok, I need a better expression than "lower the bar"
  232. [23:25:02] <kingryan> any ideas?
  233. [23:25:09] <tantek> lower the barrier to entry
  234. [23:25:16] <kingryan> I already use that
  235. [23:25:20] <kingryan> something else
  236. [23:25:23] <_fil_> facilitate
  237. [23:25:35] <kingryan> not "democratization" either
  238. [23:26:10] <kingryan> facilitate might work
  239. [23:26:30] <_fil_> NTGTBN (need to go to bed now)
  240. [23:26:37] <_fil_> have fun
  241. [23:27:22] <kingryan> goodnight
  242. [23:30:28] <kingryan> ok, final draft http://theryanking.com/xtech.html
  243. [23:35:45] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  244. [23:37:24] <KevinMarks> 'Enabling this mode of publishing will all people' -> allow people ?
  245. [23:37:44] <KevinMarks> 'in a way by which they gain more benefit' is clumsy
  246. [23:38:10] <KevinMarks> 'microformats attempt enable publishing data' ? to enable
  247. [23:39:12] <KevinMarks> 'more eyes leads to fewer bugs' -> lead
  248. [23:39:36] <KevinMarks> or 'mean' for 'leads to'
  249. [23:40:04] <KevinMarks> 'more ad-hoc manner, which simpler specification' ?
  250. [23:40:28] <KevinMarks> 'Microformats designed for humans ' -> are designed
  251. [23:51:27] * bear (n=bear@pcp01380088pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  252. [23:52:10] * bear (n=bear@pcp01380088pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  253. [23:52:33] <t1m> kingryan, Enabling this mode of publishing will all people
  254. [23:52:44] <t1m> allow all?
  255. [23:54:49] <t1m> sry, should have quoted that, it's from your xtech presentation.

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