IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:38:04] <TantekC>
t1m, you should use the most appropriate semantic XHTML elements that are available for the particular example as well
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- [00:40:38] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [00:51:51] <t1m>
I'm using <address> for the vcard with a link for the url & fn values
- [00:52:02] <t1m>
it's ok to omit an org right?
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- [01:18:32] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4038 * DrErnie * (+284) Datatypes in HTML -
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- [01:27:43] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4039 * DrErnie * (+515) Examples - Java, SQL
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- [01:33:27] <tantek>
yes, org is not required
- [01:34:15] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4040 * DrErnie * (+154) Examples - Python
- [01:36:26] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4041 * DrErnie * (+118) Examples - Perl
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- [01:39:47] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4042 * DrErnie * (+197) Examples - PHP
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- [01:47:08] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [01:47:13] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4043 * DrErnie * (+191) Examples -
- [01:48:24] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4044 * DrErnie * (+0) Examples - nil
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- [01:57:45] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4045 * DrErnie * (+968) Criteria -
- [02:02:21] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4046 * DrErnie * (+100) Datatypes in HTML -
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- [06:49:22] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4047 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+185) last-modified currently aspires to partial page update
- [06:49:43] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4048 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+18) Add name
- [06:51:14] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4049 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+436) last-updated aspires to cover atom:updated
- [06:52:30] <mfbot>
[[buttons]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=buttons&diff=0&oldid=4050 * Rohit * (+1095) requests -
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- [07:00:36] <mfbot>
[[last-modified-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=last-modified-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4051 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+11) last-modified is used by hCalendar
- [07:09:33] <cgriego>
so the hAtom nomenclature debate is supposed to end the 10th, after that what will need to happen to take hAtom from draft to spec?
- [07:24:55] <TantekC>
cgriego, in reality it will end when it will end. there is no need for such artificial deadlines.
- [07:29:08] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4052 * Tantek * (+261) Nomenclature -
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- [08:24:38] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
- [08:31:32] <Frederic>
Hello Karl
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- [08:58:14] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [14:16:07] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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- [15:34:42] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4053 * Cgriego * (+30) Added reuses of 'summary' to atom:summary nomenclature
- [15:35:17] <cgriego>
Tantek, what I meant was "planned to end" instead of "should end"
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- [16:30:09] <jibot>
t1m is http://tim.textdriven.com/
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- [16:45:43] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [17:01:48] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:39:35] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [18:04:06] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [18:37:14] * gregelin (n=chatzill@216-80-120-72.mart-bsr1.chi-mart.il.cable.rcn.com) has joined #microformats
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- [18:39:41] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann (Timezone: +0100)
- [18:39:58] <gregelin>
/nickserv ACCESS add GregElin
- [18:40:49] <RobertBachmann>
grettings.
- [18:41:11] <RobertBachmann>
gregelin: you should use /msg nickserv ...
- [18:43:33] <gregelin>
thanks.
- [18:48:43] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:48:44] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [18:49:41] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [18:57:03] <mfbot>
[[rest/datatypes]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rest/datatypes&diff=0&oldid=4054 * RobertBachmann * (+7) Examples - C
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- [20:05:16] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4055 * Tantek * (+1259) vcalendar summary IS NOT the same as atom summary in meaning, please don't confuse them
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- [20:36:03] <jibot>
BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT+1000
- [20:37:11] <jibot>
MacDome is a WebKit engineer who hacks on XML, XHTML, XSLT and SVG
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- [21:04:34] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4056 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+1781) Atom and entry titles should be different things
- [21:07:25] <mfbot>
[[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4057 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+0) Fix url formatting
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- [21:54:00] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann (Timezone: +0100)
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- [22:20:38] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4058 * RyanKing * (+342) Tantek -
- [22:26:30] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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- [22:26:30] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek Çelik and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [22:36:37] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
- [22:44:57] <RobertBachmann>
Quick thought regarding HTML's lang attribute (xml:lang for XHTML and other XML formats) for denoting the language of some microformated text (especially "text-heavy" microformats like hAtom, hReview, hResume, etc.)
- [22:44:57] <RobertBachmann>
AFAIK there wasn't much discussion about this but I think we should talk about it and perhaps collect some info somewhere on the wiki.
- [22:45:20] <tantek>
I believe it is in the FAQ for hReview
- [22:45:24] <tantek>
in short
- [22:45:37] <tantek>
use the "lang" attribute in HTML and XHTML as it is the most compatible
- [22:46:03] <tantek>
if you are publishing XHTML 1.0, then it is harmless to also specify xml:lang, though fewer implementations will consume it
- [22:46:28] <tantek>
if you are publishing XHTML 1.1 or plain XML on the Web, ask yourself who are you publishing for
- [22:49:52] <kingryan>
reminder: http://theryanking.com/blog/archives/2006/01/09/free-pizza/
- [22:55:21] <Frederic>
Hello Ryan, tantek
- [22:55:28] <RobertBachmann>
tantek: I found something here: http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview#Language But I found no direct recommendation (i.e: authors SHOULD specify the language of the review)
- [22:56:43] <kingryan>
RobertBachmann: language is handled at a lower layer in "the stack" than µf's
- [22:56:51] <kingryan>
namely the (x)html layer
- [22:56:54] <tantek>
yes
- [22:57:07] <kingryan>
so the problem of language in markup is much bigger than µf's
- [22:57:13] <kingryan>
it's web-wide
- [22:57:49] <tantek>
Robert, that's right. hReview says to use the 'lang' attribute if you need to specify language.
- [22:57:56] <tantek>
there is no reason to *require* 'lang'
- [22:58:14] <tantek>
all you will get is a bunch of bad data, since templates will almost always have lang="en" to start with
- [22:58:20] <tantek>
and get reused for all langauges
- [22:58:22] <tantek>
languages even
- [22:59:19] <kingryan>
any europeans here have experience with XTech?
- [23:00:05] <kingryan>
I'm writing a presentation abstract and could use some feedback
- [23:01:26] <RobertBachmann>
I see the problem with templates and I prefer no information instead of wrong information.
- [23:01:26] <RobertBachmann>
However, we might want to recommend it?
- [23:02:22] <tantek>
I don't see any reason to recommend it above and beyond what (X)HTML already says
- [23:02:29] <kingryan>
RobertBachmann: if we're going to reccomend it, it should be for more than hreview
- [23:02:40] <kingryan>
its a bigger than hreview
- [23:02:48] <tantek>
but the bigger question is, why?
- [23:02:58] <tantek>
why bother recommending it for microformats in particular?
- [23:04:06] <kingryan>
only under "semantic xhtml" principles which are background to µf's
- [23:04:24] <kingryan>
btw, if anyone wants to read my xtech proposal and give feedback: http://theryanking.com/xtech.mkd
- [23:05:24] <RobertBachmann>
>only under "semantic xhtml" principles which are background to µf's< sounds good.
- [23:05:56] <kingryan>
there's certainly room for more education in semantic xhtml
- [23:06:00] <_fil_>
"the DRY principle"?
- [23:06:02] <kingryan>
not sure what form that should take, though
- [23:06:07] <tantek>
_fil_, yes
- [23:06:09] <kingryan>
Don't Repeat Yourself
- [23:06:34] <_fil_>
it should be spelled out
- [23:06:50] <_fil_>
IMHO
- [23:07:01] <_fil_>
NSYFWTRWPK
- [23:07:38] <_fil_>
otherwise it's fully readable for me
- [23:07:39] <tantek>
it should not be spelled out unless there is a good reason to do so
- [23:07:55] <_fil_>
well... TTBU is one reason
- [23:07:59] <kingryan>
I'm looking for a link
- [23:08:01] <tantek>
there is no need to make the extra work for ourselves of duplicating what (X)HTML says
- [23:08:12] <tantek>
there is plenty of better work to do
- [23:08:16] <kingryan>
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DontRepeatYourself
- [23:08:17] <tantek>
more important work to do
- [23:08:24] <tantek>
than just to repeat what it says in other specs
- [23:08:41] <_fil_>
yeah no problem with the principle in itself
- [23:09:07] <kingryan>
yeah, and not just specs
- [23:09:08] <KevinMarks>
I did some notes about language about a year ago
- [23:09:13] <_fil_>
I'm just mentionong to kingryan that s/he should spell it out, at least for me if I'm in the intended audience
- [23:09:14] <kingryan>
no need to repeat others arguements
- [23:09:22] <KevinMarks>
worht moving some of it to microfromats,org perhaps
- [23:09:39] <kingryan>
_fil_, I added a link
- [23:10:33] <KevinMarks>
http://epeus.blogspot.com/2005_01_01_epeus_archive.html#110513233021128637
- [23:10:42] <_fil_>
is it meant for reading or listening to?
- [23:11:23] <kingryan>
who are you talking to, _fil_?
- [23:11:31] <_fil_>
to you :)
- [23:11:35] <_fil_>
that's feedback
- [23:11:53] <kingryan>
ah, this is just a proposal for doing a presentation
- [23:12:01] <kingryan>
http://xtech.org/2006/call.asp
- [23:12:43] <_fil_>
well my feedback is: I've read it and understood all, find it wexll written; one small problem: I had to look up one expression
- [23:12:52] <kingryan>
cool
- [23:13:13] <_fil_>
TTBU was meant for "Trying to be understood"
- [23:13:33] <_fil_>
and NSYFWTRWPK well, I already don't remember :)
- [23:13:37] <kingryan>
ah, gotcha
- [23:13:59] <kingryan>
Not So Your Find What To Read When People Know?
- [23:14:49] <tantek>
Perhaps use the <abbr title="abbreviation">abbr</abbr> element.
- [23:15:21] <_fil_>
title="Not Something You F** Want To Read Without Prior Knowledge"
- [23:16:28] <kingryan>
nice accronym
- [23:16:43] <kingryan>
this is why I ask for feedback :D
- [23:17:02] <kingryan>
I forget what constitutes "prior knowledge"
- [23:17:07] <RobertBachmann>
regarding lang: Maybe not in the semantic XHTML design principles but rather in the tutorials for the specific microformats once we have them. (just 1-2 sentences which give a brief introduction and a pointer to the relevant part of the HTML spec)?
- [23:18:01] <_fil_>
you can suppose a working knowledge of English and computing
- [23:18:11] <_fil_>
but no knowledge at all of acronyms
- [23:18:38] <RobertBachmann>
kingryan: (XTech) Maybe you want to include that microformated HTML degrades gracefuly?
- [23:19:17] <kingryan>
yeah, that's a good point
- [23:20:19] <_fil_>
that it's easy to µformat a template
- [23:20:38] <_fil_>
with a few examples
- [23:20:43] <kingryan>
I'll cover than under the lower-barrier-to-entry section
- [23:20:54] <kingryan>
remember, this is just an abstract, not the whole presentation/paper
- [23:21:00] <_fil_>
yes, ok
- [23:21:17] <kingryan>
I'm just trying to get a presentation accepted at this point
- [23:21:32] <_fil_>
then, it's not an abstract of your presentation, it's an introduction to µformats
- [23:21:50] <_fil_>
you could add a list of points you're going to make
- [23:22:50] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:23:23] <kingryan>
ok
- [23:23:29] <_fil_>
give a list of case uses (hcard and greasemonkey, hatom and using a page in a feed reader)
- [23:23:31] <kingryan>
I've only got 500 words to work with
- [23:23:58] <_fil_>
does DRY count for one or 3 words :)
- [23:24:21] <kingryan>
1, if its abbreviated
- [23:24:22] <kingryan>
:D
- [23:24:48] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2456P010.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("g2g. bye")
- [23:25:00] <kingryan>
ok, I need a better expression than "lower the bar"
- [23:25:02] <kingryan>
any ideas?
- [23:25:09] <tantek>
lower the barrier to entry
- [23:25:16] <kingryan>
I already use that
- [23:25:20] <kingryan>
something else
- [23:25:23] <_fil_>
facilitate
- [23:25:35] <kingryan>
not "democratization" either
- [23:26:10] <kingryan>
facilitate might work
- [23:26:30] <_fil_>
NTGTBN (need to go to bed now)
- [23:26:37] <_fil_>
have fun
- [23:27:22] <kingryan>
goodnight
- [23:30:28] <kingryan>
ok, final draft http://theryanking.com/xtech.html
- [23:35:45] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
- [23:37:24] <KevinMarks>
'Enabling this mode of publishing will all people' -> allow people ?
- [23:37:44] <KevinMarks>
'in a way by which they gain more benefit' is clumsy
- [23:38:10] <KevinMarks>
'microformats attempt enable publishing data' ? to enable
- [23:39:12] <KevinMarks>
'more eyes leads to fewer bugs' -> lead
- [23:39:36] <KevinMarks>
or 'mean' for 'leads to'
- [23:40:04] <KevinMarks>
'more ad-hoc manner, which simpler specification' ?
- [23:40:28] <KevinMarks>
'Microformats designed for humans ' -> are designed
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- [23:52:33] <t1m>
kingryan, Enabling this mode of publishing will all people
- [23:52:44] <t1m>
allow all?
- [23:54:49] <t1m>
sry, should have quoted that, it's from your xtech presentation.
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