IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-21

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:29] <bkdelong> So Mike - what brings you here? Or are you always here and I never noticed?
  2. [00:02:03] <tantek> yes, welcome mlinksva
  3. [00:02:36] <mlinksva> i've decided to hang out on irc more, cause i have nothing better to do, and 'microformats' sounds rad. what kind of music do they play?
  4. [00:03:49] <mlinksva> no, really, i am hanging out on irc more, and have been meaning to dig into microformats a bit more, so i'm just lurking here for the time being as a consequence
  5. [00:05:02] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  6. [00:05:35] <tantek> mike, perhaps you can help brainstorm with us on how to apply rel-license to *portions* of a page (like a single blog post) and external resources (like photos).
  7. [00:06:03] <mlinksva> yeah, that's one of the things i'm interested in
  8. [00:06:14] <mlinksva> rel=license should be an officious atom extension rsn
  9. [00:06:18] <tantek> a point raised at last nights media-info / fotonotes brainstorming dinner
  10. [00:06:19] <mlinksva> i need to look at hAtom
  11. [00:06:26] <tantek> ah interesting
  12. [00:06:38] <bkdelong> I wonder if we could include license information in a longdesc
  13. [00:06:45] <tantek> perhaps hAtom should include use of rel-license on hentry as well as the top level feed?
  14. [00:06:59] <mfbot> [[photo-note-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=photo-note-examples&diff=0&oldid=4265 * GregElin * (+291) Examples - - added fotonotes
  15. [00:06:59] <tantek> bk, longdesc is typically invisible right?
  16. [00:07:04] <tantek> i'd rather go with existing practice
  17. [00:07:20] <tantek> which is people actually putting visible license hyperlinks on their blog and blog posts
  18. [00:08:19] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  19. [00:08:33] <bkdelong> hyperlinling the img elements you mean?
  20. [00:08:54] <bkdelong> Yeah, longdesc is almost never used except for additional information about an image.
  21. [00:09:07] <tantek> ah, i see what you mean
  22. [00:09:15] <tantek> using longdesc to link to more info about the image
  23. [00:09:19] <tantek> which could include the license!
  24. [00:09:28] <bkdelong> right
  25. [00:09:38] <gregelin> (tuning out for a meeting...)
  26. [00:09:43] * gregelin (n=gregelin@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit ()
  27. [00:10:12] <bkdelong> So we'd be using the longdesc correctly
  28. [00:10:52] <tantek> does <object> have longdesc also?
  29. [00:11:43] <bkdelong> I think so.
  30. [00:11:50] <mlinksva> fwiw see http://www.snellspace.com/wp/?p=249 (several atom extensions) and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-snell-atompub-feed-license-04.txt
  31. [00:12:29] <bkdelong> blast - no: http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/index/attributes.html
  32. [00:12:50] <bkdelong> http://www.w3.org/TR/html40/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT
  33. [00:12:58] <bkdelong> However we could use the data attribute
  34. [00:13:09] <tantek> but data points to the src
  35. [00:13:17] <bkdelong> hrm...
  36. [00:13:31] <bkdelong> right...duh
  37. [00:14:15] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("I'll be right back.")
  38. [00:16:26] <bkdelong> What child elements can be used under object?
  39. [00:19:24] <Enric> ping
  40. [00:21:03] <mlinksva> so if you use longdesc to point to info about an image/object, that just pushes the problem to another url, which has to contain some statements about the image url ... i won't say what that's reinventing. using longdesc specifically for license seems like a terrible narrowing of its intention
  41. [00:23:17] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  42. [00:23:54] <bkdelong> you're right
  43. [00:24:10] <bkdelong> I forgot that Longdesc wasn't text
  44. [00:24:20] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4266 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+775) When is a bare href (not) a citation?
  45. [00:26:48] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  46. [00:27:45] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  47. [00:30:48] <mlinksva> i'm dtd-rusty, but afaict object can contain just about any html
  48. [00:32:03] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  49. [00:32:03] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  50. [00:37:07] <tantek> but the contents of an <object> are defined to be *fallback* for the object in the case that the browser doesn't support the <object> itself
  51. [00:37:15] <tantek> so that semantic is already defined
  52. [00:37:41] <tantek> there seems to be a lot of overlap BTW between citations and media-info
  53. [00:37:53] <tantek> is media-info just a special citation?
  54. [00:38:01] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit ()
  55. [00:38:11] <tantek> do we need to solve the cite problem first and then use that as a building block for other microformats?
  56. [00:38:12] <mlinksva> very true, it would be stretching to use fallback markup to describe the preferred object
  57. [00:38:59] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  58. [00:39:49] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  59. [00:39:49] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  60. [00:40:33] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  61. [00:44:41] <bkdelong> re: cite....seems to make sense.
  62. [00:44:55] * gregelin (n=gregelin@adsl-69-226-238-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  63. [00:45:23] <bkdelong> It looks like hAtom is being used as a building block as well.
  64. [00:54:42] * gregelin (n=gregelin@adsl-69-226-238-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  65. [00:55:10] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  66. [00:56:59] <tantek> who here is interested in the cite microformat efforts?
  67. [00:57:14] <bkdelong> meeeeee
  68. [00:57:21] <tantek> cool
  69. [00:57:27] <bkdelong> sorry...overzealous enthusiasm is mah name.
  70. [00:57:52] <tantek> do we have sufficient examples and formats research to start brainstorming?
  71. [00:58:21] <bkdelong> Not sure. Need to look em over again
  72. [00:58:51] <factoryjoe> i'm not!
  73. [00:59:03] <bkdelong> heh
  74. [00:59:21] <tantek> it seems to me that an hCite could serve as a core building block for numerous other microformats
  75. [00:59:27] <tantek> i'm seeing patterns of commonality all around
  76. [00:59:32] <factoryjoe> as long as hFigure shows up
  77. [00:59:44] <bkdelong> hFigure?
  78. [00:59:52] <factoryjoe> ask tantek
  79. [01:00:07] <tantek> factoryjoe, could you point to a URL that shows an example of what you would call a "figure"?
  80. [01:00:13] <factoryjoe> yes
  81. [01:00:16] <factoryjoe> factoryjoe.com/blog
  82. [01:00:36] <factoryjoe> any image with something like class="alignleft | aligncenter | alignright"
  83. [01:00:45] <factoryjoe> those aren't semantic tags
  84. [01:00:56] <factoryjoe> i would like something like class="hfigure alignright"
  85. [01:01:06] <factoryjoe> i can find others
  86. [01:01:08] <tantek> but what does figure mean?
  87. [01:01:11] <tantek> other than "image"
  88. [01:01:29] <tantek> or "object"
  89. [01:02:02] <bkdelong> damn....where are all the cite examples?
  90. [01:02:37] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  91. [01:02:54] <tantek> http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-examples
  92. [01:02:57] <mlinksva> it might make sense to think of atom entries outside of the context of atom feeds -- the container would be superfluous for things at aren't actually feeds. any atom rel extension could be directly supported. any block you wanted to annotate would need to be wrapped in <div class="hentry">, the block itself being class="content". of course this is a super-generic annotation mechanism, not particularly using any xhtml sema
  93. [01:02:57] <mlinksva> ntics.
  94. [01:03:08] <factoryjoe> figure means "a representative illustration of this document | post | content"
  95. [01:03:14] <factoryjoe> btw, on send_pings: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2847/tracking-click-pings-phpmysql
  96. [01:03:55] <tantek> so a figure is a rel="alternate" type="image/*" ?
  97. [01:03:57] <factoryjoe> mm: http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/19/technology/futureboy/index.htm
  98. [01:04:08] <factoryjoe> tantek: sort of...
  99. [01:04:15] <tantek> what else is it then?
  100. [01:04:19] <mlinksva> i looked at the cite pages on the wiki briefly and didn't really get the overall intent. bibliographic info? apropos to what's in a blockquote?
  101. [01:04:26] <factoryjoe> though it could also be those woodcut illustrations in .... the WSJ
  102. [01:04:37] <tantek> those are just images
  103. [01:04:40] <tantek> that's what i mean
  104. [01:04:48] <bkdelong> yeah...they are
  105. [01:04:50] <tantek> i don't see the semantic distinction of a figure above and beyond an image/object
  106. [01:04:53] <tantek> if it is just a synonym
  107. [01:04:57] <tantek> then we don't need any new format
  108. [01:05:13] <tantek> mlinksva - visible citations
  109. [01:05:31] <tantek> blockquote lets you link to a cite via its cite attribute which is a url
  110. [01:06:21] <bkdelong> as does "q" for inline citations
  111. [01:06:22] <factoryjoe> what about this: http://marketwatch.nytimes.com/custom/nyt-com/html-industryfocus.asp?ind_abbr=isv&ind_sid=980703
  112. [01:06:33] <factoryjoe> (the graph)
  113. [01:06:44] <bkdelong> an image
  114. [01:07:00] <bkdelong> that can be described in detail through longdesc ;P
  115. [01:07:14] <factoryjoe> or maybe: http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/20/technology/google_stock/index.htm
  116. [01:07:27] <factoryjoe> the google rollercoaster vs the big technology block..
  117. [01:07:31] <bkdelong> Now.....a collection of images to make up a figure....
  118. [01:07:50] <factoryjoe> basically you could use an hFigure as a way to leave certain things in a post if you wanted to just see the article + hfigures
  119. [01:08:02] <factoryjoe> i.e. it could be used in the content of hAtom descriptions...
  120. [01:08:08] <factoryjoe> bkdelong: right, that too
  121. [01:08:15] <factoryjoe> or, an image with a caption
  122. [01:08:20] <factoryjoe> like tables have captions
  123. [01:08:42] <factoryjoe> i mean, my point is really that "alignright" doesn't tell me anything semantic
  124. [01:08:54] <factoryjoe> besides where something should be rendered in flowed text
  125. [01:08:55] <tantek> my point is HTML already has everything you have mentioned for a figure
  126. [01:08:56] <bkdelong> I see what you're saying
  127. [01:09:02] <factoryjoe> but it doesn't tell me that it's related to the post
  128. [01:09:09] <tantek> the context tells you that
  129. [01:09:13] <factoryjoe> hmm
  130. [01:09:15] <factoryjoe> no
  131. [01:09:18] <tantek> simply be embedding the image in the context of the entry
  132. [01:09:19] <factoryjoe> again
  133. [01:09:22] <tantek> you are saying it is realted
  134. [01:09:26] <factoryjoe> look at that google stock page
  135. [01:09:28] <tantek> related even
  136. [01:09:42] <factoryjoe> that big "technology" rectangle adds nothing to my understanding of the article
  137. [01:09:58] <factoryjoe> so i wanted to, for example, grab that article and move into a scrapbook
  138. [01:10:06] <factoryjoe> i would only want to extract the related hFigures
  139. [01:10:11] <factoryjoe> not the extra stupid stuff
  140. [01:10:20] <factoryjoe> i need a better example
  141. [01:10:25] <factoryjoe> lemme keep looking
  142. [01:11:03] <tantek> by default all nested images/objects are related content
  143. [01:11:15] <tantek> if it is only decorative, it should be presented via CSS
  144. [01:11:44] <factoryjoe> ??
  145. [01:11:49] <factoryjoe> that's so not what happens
  146. [01:11:56] <factoryjoe> http://www.slate.com/id/2134461/
  147. [01:12:05] <factoryjoe> look at the big honkin ad in the middle of the text
  148. [01:12:08] <factoryjoe> that is NOT an hFigure
  149. [01:12:13] <factoryjoe> nor is presented via CSS
  150. [01:12:17] <factoryjoe> (as far as I can tell)
  151. [01:12:53] <factoryjoe> yet if i want to ONLY select the article (including illiustrative images, figures, formulas, etc) that ad will be contained in the selection
  152. [01:13:13] <factoryjoe> am i wrong?
  153. [01:14:02] <factoryjoe> perfect: http://www.usatoday.com/money/markets/us/2006-01-20-stocks-daily_x.htm
  154. [01:14:04] <bkdelong> Basically you're saying you want to add more context to images within an article or blog posting
  155. [01:14:13] <tantek> factoryjoe, we can't control what people do wrong
  156. [01:14:16] <factoryjoe> scroll down to the green box: "HOW STOCKS PERFORMED"
  157. [01:14:33] <tantek> if they are using XHTML wrong, then there is no reason to expect that they would make use of microformats
  158. [01:14:35] <factoryjoe> bkdelong: yeah, like make it explicit that certain content is part of a post or article
  159. [01:14:44] <factoryjoe> tantek: of course
  160. [01:14:47] <tantek> hence there is no reason to invent a microformat for something that just requires proper use of XHTML
  161. [01:14:49] <factoryjoe> i'm looking for my own standard
  162. [01:14:52] <factoryjoe> for my blog
  163. [01:15:02] <factoryjoe> you asked for general examples in the wild why this would be useful
  164. [01:15:03] <tantek> my points, just following proper XHTML, you don't need another standard
  165. [01:15:15] <tantek> unless there is something i am missing
  166. [01:15:28] <tantek> again, how is figure not just a synonym for image - in your blog for example
  167. [01:15:32] <factoryjoe> well, i'm not articulating it quite well enough
  168. [01:15:36] <factoryjoe> you're mostly right
  169. [01:15:45] <factoryjoe> tantek: in that last example
  170. [01:15:47] <tantek> you need to explain why figure is *special*
  171. [01:15:55] <factoryjoe> you've got text AND images
  172. [01:15:57] <tantek> how it implies additional semantics above and beyond just an image
  173. [01:16:01] <factoryjoe> together they combine to make a FIGURE
  174. [01:16:23] <factoryjoe> and that figure is related to the context of the article in which its founds
  175. [01:16:26] <factoryjoe> found
  176. [01:16:37] <factoryjoe> ok, like imagine this
  177. [01:16:44] <factoryjoe> let's say i have a greasemonkey script
  178. [01:16:56] <factoryjoe> "magic erase everything else so i can read just the content" script
  179. [01:17:04] <factoryjoe> like adblock on roids
  180. [01:17:15] <factoryjoe> it would look for hatom content
  181. [01:17:26] <factoryjoe> and hfigures embedded in the hatom content
  182. [01:17:38] <factoryjoe> everything else w/o hfigure would get blown away
  183. [01:17:44] <factoryjoe> i could then print that, save it, send it... etc
  184. [01:17:57] <factoryjoe> if it's just an image, how do i know it's not an ad?
  185. [01:18:04] <factoryjoe> hfigure would make it explicit
  186. [01:18:45] <factoryjoe> i could be totally wrong in my approach here -- that's known to happen -- but it makes sense to me...
  187. [01:19:00] <factoryjoe> maybe not as a Tantek-sanctioned-microformat.. but maybe just as a convention
  188. [01:19:08] <factoryjoe> certainly better than "alignfoo"
  189. [01:19:24] <mlinksva> tantek, i did not know about the cite attribute of blockquote and q. this seems trivial to use. what would a potential hcite mf add? and how would it be a building block for other mf's -- cite seems very specific -- "URI that designates a source document or message", only applicable to blockquote and q.
  190. [01:20:46] <factoryjoe> anyway, i'll let ya stew on that for a bit
  191. [01:20:47] <factoryjoe> ;)
  192. [01:21:19] <bkdelong> wiki it in brainstorm / discussion
  193. [01:27:14] <tantek> um, alignfoo is orthogonal AFAIK
  194. [01:27:38] <tantek> mlinksva, yes a cite link *is* very specific
  195. [01:27:49] <tantek> an hCite would be used to markup and actual citation's components
  196. [01:27:50] <tantek> e.g
  197. [01:30:23] <tantek> Çelik T. "CSS3 Basic User Interface Module" W3C Technical Reports and Publications <http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511> (2004)
  198. [01:30:35] <tantek> currently HTML has the <cite> element
  199. [01:30:44] <tantek> so you can markup that whole thing as a <cite>
  200. [01:30:59] <tantek> but the question is, could we come up with a microformat to markup the individual pieces
  201. [01:31:12] <tantek> author, title, publication, URL, date
  202. [01:31:21] <tantek> which are all *part* of the citation
  203. [01:32:02] <tantek> factoryjoe, how about marking up the ads as such instead?
  204. [01:32:23] <tantek> the "collection of stuff makes a figure" is an interesting line of thinking
  205. [01:32:40] <tantek> something like: photo + media-info = figure ?
  206. [01:32:52] <tantek> I'm not sure that is compatible with "common" use of the term figure
  207. [01:33:00] <tantek> e.g. in a text book the figure is usually *just* the image
  208. [01:33:16] <tantek> and it is often labeled as "figure 5.7" or something
  209. [01:33:22] <tantek> and then referenced as such
  210. [01:34:50] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  211. [01:34:53] <factoryjoe> i dunno about that
  212. [01:35:09] <factoryjoe> i think figures are often illustration + title + description
  213. [01:35:19] <factoryjoe> or in a newspaper: photo + credit + caption
  214. [01:35:26] <factoryjoe> it's a group of related items
  215. [01:35:46] <factoryjoe> and for marking up the ads.. i think there'd be more stuff you'd want to exclude than include...
  216. [01:36:48] <factoryjoe> tantek: going to be @ cttp much longer?
  217. [01:36:55] <factoryjoe> i think i'd like to return
  218. [01:39:08] <tantek> yes
  219. [01:39:14] <tantek> mj & eran r here
  220. [01:39:16] <tantek> amber is coming by
  221. [01:40:18] <factoryjoe> ah nice
  222. [01:40:18] <factoryjoe> ok
  223. [01:40:22] <factoryjoe> be there in 12
  224. [01:41:01] <tantek> mlinksva, did my example make sense?
  225. [01:41:45] <factoryjoe> bbiaf
  226. [01:41:48] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  227. [01:44:03] <mlinksva> tantek, ok i understand the desire to markup the contents of <cite>. that doesn't seem to have anything to do with the cite attribute, unless the intention is for a cite attribute to point to a named anchor, which would precede the <cite>. in any case, i don't see the commonality with media-info. hcite would be markup up the contents of an element -- <cite>, the problem with marking up an img, object, or similar is one
  228. [01:44:03] <mlinksva> of annotating an external thing, not a block self-annotating itself.
  229. [01:46:03] * jay (n=james@82.26.28.219) has joined #microformats
  230. [01:46:03] <jibot> jay is in San Francisco & found at http://icite.net/blog/ & likes to learn IRC bot tricks & Jay Fienberg & blogs at http://icite.net/blog/
  231. [01:46:29] <jay> hmm not sure about that
  232. [01:46:39] <jay> hello all
  233. [01:47:49] <tantek> mlinksva, yes, there is the distinction of annotating an external thing vs. a thing inline
  234. [01:47:56] <tantek> but they seem to have A LOT of overlap
  235. [01:53:57] <jay> tantek, can i ask a question?
  236. [01:55:36] <tantek> yes
  237. [01:58:44] <jay> do you think there could be any future in developing a microformat for the higher education sector, i.e. creating a standardised way of tagging course information, such as course titles, descriptions, entry req's etc
  238. [02:05:34] <tantek> are such things published on the web in any sort of common pattern?
  239. [02:06:35] <jay> well from a UK perspective most of them do
  240. [02:06:52] * tara (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  241. [02:06:52] <jibot> tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
  242. [02:07:41] <jay> i'm not sure about the US, i guess they might not have all the same variables for each course, i suppose that is part of the challengem getting a "buy in" from institutions
  243. [02:08:29] <jay> i'm just thinking that in terms of potential students, if courses are available in common formats, it would open up a multitude of search opportunities
  244. [02:10:41] <mlinksva> tantek, could you be explicit about what overlap you see? my guess is 1) you might want to make some of the same annotations about both and 2) in the case of <cite> you're actually annotating an externing thing -- the thing being cited. so the super generic way to handle both would be to say "here's a block that annotates something" and "here's the thing being annotated", e.g., class="annotation-container" on the former
  245. [02:10:42] <mlinksva> and rel="annotation-subject" on the <a> to the thing being cited (<http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/CR-css3-ui-20040511> in your example) or class="annotation-subject" on the img/object -- not meant to be anything close to the correct syntax, just illustrative -- but that seems perilously close to reinventing you know what
  246. [02:10:48] <jay> i work for the www.port.ac.uk webteam and am starting a recode of html 3.2/4.0 in our CMS to xhtml and was wondering about any added extras
  247. [02:16:09] * tara (n=tara@h-66-134-141-205.snvacaid.covad.net) Quit ()
  248. [02:17:46] * gregelin (n=gregelin@adsl-69-226-238-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  249. [02:21:03] * gregelin (n=gregelin@adsl-69-226-238-180.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Client Quit)
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  252. [02:38:31] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  253. [02:38:31] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  254. [02:44:58] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  255. [02:45:54] <Enric> I'm also in the futuresalon channel and watching the video stream of it...
  256. [02:46:32] <Enric> http://mfile.akamai.com/14947/sdp/accelerating.org/salon_01_2006.mov
  257. [02:46:46] <factoryjoe> nice
  258. [02:47:21] <Enric> :) people eating at SAP...before they talk with Douglas Engelbart
  259. [02:47:26] <Enric> http://www.socialtext.net/futuresalon/index.cgi?large_scale_collective_iq
  260. [02:49:01] <Enric> still at cftp?
  261. [02:50:18] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  262. [02:52:19] <bkdelong> I miss all the fun events.
  263. [02:52:38] <Enric> looks like healthy veggies
  264. [03:07:32] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-8-234.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  265. [03:17:04] <factoryjoe> http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/01/20/build-me-a-distributed-lazyweb/
  266. [03:17:34] <tantek> <a href="http://technorati.com/tag/lazyweb" rel="tag">lazyweb</a>
  267. [03:17:38] <tantek> next. :)
  268. [03:32:38] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  269. [03:34:01] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4267 * Tantek * (+395) XHTML Structure -
  270. [03:37:07] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4268 * Tantek * (+79) Citation Brainstroming -
  271. [03:37:37] <factoryjoe> dude you so know my lazyweb idea rockz0r
  272. [03:37:46] <tantek> mlinksva, your distinction makes sense. i have added it to the cite-brainstorming
  273. [03:38:04] <factoryjoe> tantek: my hFigure makes sense, you know it
  274. [03:38:15] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  275. [03:38:25] <tantek> factoryjoe needs to cut back on the joe
  276. [03:38:32] <factoryjoe> i'm drinking apple juice
  277. [03:38:59] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  278. [03:40:08] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  279. [03:42:13] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4269 * Tantek * (-1) Some Thoughts -
  280. [03:43:55] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  281. [03:45:13] * tantek (n=tantek@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit ()
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  284. [03:51:33] * Enric_ (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.1 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  285. [03:51:58] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  286. [04:08:35] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
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  288. [04:40:03] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.0.7/20051010]")
  289. [04:43:07] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  290. [04:43:27] * zeno- (n=zn-@c-24-98-133-252.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  291. [04:47:59] <BenjaminCarlyle> I'm not yet of the opinion that hCite needs to be anything more than <a rel="cite" href="...">description or name</a>. Other potential data fields such as author initially seem appealing and appear to have examples, but I'm not sure it is possible to treat any data marked up in such a citation as authorative.
  292. [04:49:41] <BenjaminCarlyle> If I claim that <http://microformats.org/blog/2005/12/31/new-xoxo-blog/> was written by Tantek Seliac an aggregator could pick up that and treat it as fact, when in fact I have horribly mispelled the author's name. Instead, and aggregator should use the author it finds at the url as authorative.
  293. [04:53:00] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-180-141-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  294. [04:58:16] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  295. [05:31:05] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-67-102-17-155.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  296. [05:31:05] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  297. [05:47:52] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-80-222.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  298. [05:52:26] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  299. [05:52:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego and a college student studying to supplement web scripting skills with an understanding of interactive design. and is on hiatus until March to find work in the Dallas area.
  300. [05:55:16] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  301. [05:59:46] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  302. [06:03:35] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-67-102-17-155.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit ()
  303. [06:20:03] * Iron_Monk (i=Iron_Mon@24-176-84-145.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com) has joined #microformats
  304. [06:27:42] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  305. [07:15:50] <Frederic> hello
  306. [07:20:23] <Iron_Monk> hi
  307. [07:26:16] <Atamido> ?learn
  308. [07:26:16] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  309. [07:34:20] <Iron_Monk> how do you mean "middle"
  310. [07:34:28] <Iron_Monk> dead-center?
  311. [07:34:35] <Iron_Monk> or within 1st and last char?
  312. [07:35:12] <Frederic> learn foo is bar
  313. [07:36:55] <Iron_Monk> transistory
  314. [07:37:22] <Iron_Monk> nonisobar
  315. [07:41:09] <Atamido> I just needed to make sure
  316. [07:41:18] <Atamido> Chatzilla was still sending messages. :P
  317. [07:48:11] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4270 * Mary Hodder * (+94)
  318. [08:12:02] * Iron_Monk (i=Iron_Mon@24-176-84-145.dhcp.hckr.nc.charter.com) has left #microformats
  319. [08:13:08] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  320. [08:13:08] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  321. [08:13:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  322. [08:52:54] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-74-125.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  323. [09:01:26] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-74-125.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  324. [09:39:41] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-74-125.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  326. [10:34:18] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  327. [11:12:35] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  328. [11:12:35] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  329. [11:20:53] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  330. [11:33:07] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  331. [11:33:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  332. [11:42:04] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  333. [12:28:11] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  334. [13:17:28] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  335. [13:17:29] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  336. [13:34:12] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  337. [13:39:14] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  338. [14:04:12] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  339. [14:04:12] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00).
  340. [14:10:53] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues&diff=0&oldid=4271 * BBoyle * (+991) Issues -
  341. [14:21:28] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  342. [14:21:28] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  343. [14:46:28] * jay (n=james@82.26.28.219) Quit (Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable))
  344. [14:51:52] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  345. [15:04:50] <cgriego> http://www.43things.com/things/view/485114 :D
  346. [15:04:58] <cgriego> I'm preachin it to the peoples
  347. [15:05:15] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.16.141) has joined #microformats
  348. [15:05:23] <cgriego> oops, wrong channel...
  349. [15:33:11] * danja (i=DannyAye@host166-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  350. [15:58:00] * zeno- (n=zn-@c-24-98-133-252.hsd1.ga.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  352. [16:34:27] * _psychic_ (n=john@128.187.149.226) has joined #microformats
  353. [16:52:29] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  354. [16:54:12] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  355. [16:54:12] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  356. [16:54:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  357. [16:58:35] <Enric> ?karma
  358. [16:58:36] <jibot> Karma Dump available at: http://an9.org/~jibot
  359. [16:59:06] <Enric> ?def microformats
  360. [16:59:06] <jibot> Nobody has defined microformats yet
  361. [16:59:41] <Enric> ?def factoryjoe
  362. [16:59:41] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  363. [17:00:54] <Enric> ?learn Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
  364. [17:00:54] <jibot> Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
  365. [17:01:09] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  366. [17:01:51] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  367. [17:02:17] <Enric> ?def Enric
  368. [17:02:17] <jibot> Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com
  369. [17:03:01] <Enric> ?def Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  370. [17:03:01] <jibot> Enric is Media Software Developer and videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  371. [17:03:12] <Enric> ?forget Enric
  372. [17:03:12] <jibot> I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
  373. [17:03:52] <Enric> ?forget Enric is Media Software Developer
  374. [17:03:53] <jibot> I now only know that Enric is videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  375. [17:04:15] <Enric> ?forget Enric is videoblogger at http://www.cirne.com and a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  376. [17:04:16] <jibot> I no longer know anything about Enric
  377. [17:04:31] <Enric> ?def Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  378. [17:04:31] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  379. [17:24:00] * _psychic_ (n=john@128.187.149.226) Quit ()
  380. [17:26:49] <Enric> ?cool Enric
  381. [17:26:50] <jibot> ice forms on Enric's upper slopes
  382. [17:27:12] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  383. [18:10:46] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #microformats
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  388. [18:48:52] * tantek changes topic to 'cite / media-info / photo-notes / resume discussion || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
  389. [18:50:57] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  390. [19:01:43] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  391. [19:01:52] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  392. [20:04:01] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
  393. [20:42:01] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-74-125.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  394. [20:42:02] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  395. [20:45:03] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
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  397. [20:51:24] <BenjaminCarlyle> I have not yet come around to thinking that a citation needs to have anything but a hyperlink and short description (i.e. an anchor). Even if other data can be pulled out of a citation, should it be used? Can it be considered authorative? It seems to me that even when you are identifying offline media, best pratice would be to point to some official site for the book or to a retail outlet description of the book. A m
  398. [21:02:24] <TantekC> Ben, yes, ideally everything would have a canonical representation on the Web at a permanent URL and we could simply reference it as such.
  399. [21:02:29] <TantekC> But we are not there yet.
  400. [21:03:18] <TantekC> And more importantly, that doesn't represent what people publish today on the Web.
  401. [21:04:06] <TantekC> The point of microformats is not to model some future ideal, but rather, to model *today's* *real-world* publishing behavior on the Web.
  402. [21:06:10] <TantekC> So the point remains, as documented at http://microformats.org/wiki/cite-examples people publish citations with various amounts of semi-structured content.
  403. [21:10:20] * bear42 (n=bear@pcp0011946162pcs.pwayne01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  406. [21:20:15] * bear42 is now known as bear
  407. [21:37:35] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4272 * EranGloben * (+117) Problem -
  408. [21:37:53] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  409. [21:40:25] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
  410. [21:41:07] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4273 * EranGloben * (+340) Problem -
  411. [21:41:18] * bewest|symphony wonders if it would be interesting to see how closely web publishers follow the established styles from APA, MLA, et cet....
  412. [21:41:26] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
  413. [21:49:43] <mfbot> [[User:EranGloben]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:EranGloben * EranGloben * (+436)
  414. [21:56:52] <rawtext> I know this is unrelated to microformats, but you guys seem like a knowledgable, successfull group of guys. What are your thoughts on CIS assoc degree (non programming) or Art & Graphic design assoc degree. I'm coming from a fairly experienced web design background (css, html, photoshop, etc.) Which degree would you consider more valuable, or what job market is easier to get in to, I love web design, but I also like informati
  415. [21:58:17] <rawtext> it's just the CIS degree is easier to get as the college is easier to get to, the Graphic Design is a little more of a hike, and my car may not survive the highway all the time.
  416. [22:08:14] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4274 * EranGloben * (+209) Additional Resources -
  417. [22:20:06] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4275 * Mary Hodder * (+6617) added examples of rich media, descriptions of elements commonly found, and number estimates to examples
  418. [22:25:22] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4276 * EranGloben * (+1005) Additional Resources -
  419. [22:29:26] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-8-234.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  420. [22:31:50] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  421. [22:31:50] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  422. [22:31:53] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  423. [22:33:56] * conann (n=conann@host81-129-70-243.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  424. [22:51:49] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  425. [22:51:49] <jibot> amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
  426. [22:53:15] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-8-234.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  427. [22:54:11] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-74-125.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  428. [22:55:54] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  429. [23:04:14] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  430. [23:05:24] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  431. [23:05:35] * conann (n=conann@host81-129-70-243.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  432. [23:05:45] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  433. [23:10:15] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  434. [23:14:08] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  435. [23:14:32] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  436. [23:20:30] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  437. [23:20:30] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  438. [23:22:04] <mfbot> [[rel-license]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-license&diff=0&oldid=4277 * ChrisCasciano * (+245) Implementations - txp plugin -
  439. [23:23:35] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  440. [23:23:45] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  441. [23:24:30] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=4278 * ChrisCasciano * (+42) People on irc -
  442. [23:29:31] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-8-234.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
  443. [23:36:32] <mfbot> [[media-info-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/media-info-brainstorming * Mary Hodder * (+2118)
  444. [23:37:55] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|away
  445. [23:50:42] * danja (i=DannyAye@host166-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.