IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-22
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:01:03] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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- [00:01:28] <jibot>
amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
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- [00:25:13] <bewest|symphony>
hey
- [00:26:07] <bewest|symphony>
who was talking about lazyweb?
- [00:26:24] <mfbot>
[[media-info-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4279 * Mary Hodder * (+925)
- [00:26:25] <bewest|symphony>
http://www.43things.com/ is a remakably similar idea
- [00:28:55] <mfbot>
[[media-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4280 * Mary Hodder * (+113)
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- [00:45:51] <bewest|symphony>
oh I saw someone mistakenly posted it already
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- [00:53:07] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
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- [00:54:29] <bkdelong>
I miss anything exciting today?
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- [00:55:22] <bewest|symphony>
yeah, tantek and factoryjoe were talkign about a lazyweb
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- [00:55:36] <bewest|symphony>
and then I stumbled upon http://www.43things.com/ which I thought was remarkably similar
- [00:56:31] <bkdelong>
A bit different....43things is more general brainstorming, thoughts and ideas and lazyweb.org is specifically for "laziness-induced ideas"
- [00:57:22] <kingryan>
lazyweb is also, "this should be done, but not by me"
- [00:57:34] <kingryan>
43things is "I want to do these things, just not today"
- [00:57:42] <bkdelong>
right
- [00:58:02] <bkdelong>
I am KING of LazyWeb....or at least it's Robbie Rotten. ;)
- [00:58:35] <bewest|symphony>
kingryan: I see little difference in practical day to day life
- [00:59:19] <bewest|symphony>
both desires would be satisfied by someone else doing it sooner than you in most instances
- [00:59:20] <bkdelong>
semantics is everything
- [00:59:35] <bewest|symphony>
with the obvious exception of things you wish to experience
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- [04:56:33] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [06:47:31] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4281 * Yamahige * (+235) Conversion and consumption -
- [06:52:52] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4282 * Yamahige * (-1) Conversion and consumption -
- [07:02:59] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [07:08:44] <mfbot>
[[Template:NewMarker]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:NewMarker&diff=0&oldid=4283 * MarkRickerby * (-6) restyled to match colors from uf identity swatch
- [07:09:15] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4284 * MarkRickerby * (-2) del ( braces ) from hatom link
- [07:25:21] <mfbot>
[[rel-bookmark]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-bookmark&diff=0&oldid=4285 * MarkRickerby * (-7) removed spam links, added redirect to rel-design-pattern
- [07:42:43] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-brainstorming * StephanieBooth * (+691)
- [07:44:24] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4286 * StephanieBooth * (+326)
- [07:44:40] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4287 * StephanieBooth * (+27)
- [07:48:16] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4288 * StephanieBooth * (+101)
- [07:50:37] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4289 * StephanieBooth * (+187)
- [07:53:03] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples * StephanieBooth * (+341)
- [07:54:14] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4290 * StephanieBooth * (+29)
- [07:54:45] <KevinMarks>
evening
- [07:54:50] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4291 * StephanieBooth * (+3)
- [07:55:51] <KevinMarks>
just to note I'm encoraging some multilingual bloggers to walk through the mf process for specifying langauge
- [07:58:36] <mfbot>
[[User:StephanieBooth]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:StephanieBooth * StephanieBooth * (+132)
- [07:59:02] <mfbot>
[[User:StephanieBooth]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:StephanieBooth&diff=0&oldid=4292 * StephanieBooth * (+47)
- [08:00:33] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4293 * StephanieBooth * (+649)
- [08:04:50] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4294 * StephanieBooth * (+594)
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- [08:12:42] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
- [08:12:48] <bunnywabbit_>
*boing*
- [08:13:03] <bunnywabbit_>
probably should be here, huh, KevinMarks and patfm ?
- [08:13:21] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4295 * Patfm * (+239) Research - added a few links
- [08:13:32] <KevinMarks>
especially as the last 20 things in this channel have been your edits, bunny
- [08:13:48] <bunnywabbit_>
in this channel?
- [08:13:50] <bunnywabbit_>
oh heck
- [08:13:54] <bunnywabbit_>
edits appear in here?
- [08:13:56] <bunnywabbit_>
ew
- [08:13:59] <bunnywabbit_>
had I known...
- [08:14:09] <bunnywabbit_>
thanks patfm :-)
- [08:14:22] <bunnywabbit_>
KevinMarks: I'm still not sure how relevant our whole thing is to "microformats"
- [08:14:42] <bunnywabbit_>
in what way is the multilingual problem a microformat issue? (apart for the markup side of things, of course)
- [08:14:46] <KevinMarks>
I think it is very much so
- [08:14:58] <bunnywabbit_>
then maybe I don't get what a microformat is
- [08:15:00] <KevinMarks>
getting the markup right is a good foundation
- [08:15:01] <bunnywabbit_>
could you explain?
- [08:15:03] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:15:34] <patfm>
i think it's related, but i see one potential problem:
- [08:15:45] <KevinMarks>
the poitn fo microformats is to express meaning in HTML in a way that is both simple to author and parsable by machine
- [08:16:02] <patfm>
it's hard to think of a whole blog post as a microformat
- [08:16:09] <bunnywabbit_>
KevinMarks: so should we create a multilingual-markup page?
- [08:16:52] <KevinMarks>
no thats missing the point, pat
- [08:17:08] <KevinMarks>
the markup that defiens the raltionships between posts can be a microformat
- [08:17:30] <bunnywabbit_>
patfm: is the way I try to state the problem clear, or not?
- [08:17:38] <bunnywabbit_>
KevinMarks: I agree
- [08:18:00] <patfm>
okay, it's just something i've thought about, because if you think about something like the vcard microformat or whatever, it seems like a self-contained entity
- [08:18:18] <KevinMarks>
well, that is, but rel="tag" isn't
- [08:18:31] <patfm>
and in literal (markup) terms, thinking of ablog post led me to think hmm, this isn't going to end up as a big div is it, because people won't do it
- [08:18:32] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4296 * StephanieBooth * (+114) Trying to formulate the problem again -
- [08:18:34] <KevinMarks>
the poitn is clarity of meaning
- [08:18:35] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: for the language why don't you use xml:lang="xx" ?
- [08:18:49] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: not as simple
- [08:18:55] <KevinMarks>
because lang and hreflang are HTML
- [08:18:56] <bunnywabbit_>
we want to define relationships too
- [08:19:06] <KevinMarks>
xml:lang is a subset
- [08:19:16] <bunnywabbit_>
and say A is an abstract in lang xx of B which is in lang yy
- [08:19:40] <Frederic>
hmmmm
- [08:19:54] <bunnywabbit_>
A and B can be at different URIs or at the same URI - then we're in a mess
- [08:19:59] <bunnywabbit_>
or we need to id them
- [08:20:09] <KevinMarks>
require differet URLs
- [08:20:14] <KevinMarks>
fragment IDs are legit
- [08:20:24] <bunnywabbit_>
KevinMarks: so how would you deal with my blog?
- [08:20:35] <bunnywabbit_>
my other-language-abstracts are at the same URL
- [08:20:47] <bunnywabbit_>
what does "fragment IDs are legit" mean?
- [08:20:52] <KevinMarks>
well, give them a distinct anchor
- [08:20:56] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:21:16] <KevinMarks>
we are iterating on that issue in hAtom
- [08:21:23] * valmont (n=chrishol@dsl092-043-004.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [08:21:25] <KevinMarks>
excerpts vs abstracts
- [08:21:25] <bunnywabbit_>
something like
- [08:21:35] <bunnywabbit_>
post-slug-xx
- [08:21:37] <bunnywabbit_>
xx being the language
- [08:21:41] <bunnywabbit_>
and we could have
- [08:21:44] <bunnywabbit_>
post-slug-xx-post
- [08:21:50] <bunnywabbit_>
and post-slug-xx-post
- [08:21:56] <bunnywabbit_>
and post-slug-xx-excerpt
- [08:22:05] <bunnywabbit_>
how would you define excerpts vs. abstracts?
- [08:22:34] <patfm>
maybe it would be better to think in terms of actual tags than more content-oriented terms
- [08:22:48] <patfm>
because we have span and blockquote, for instance
- [08:23:01] <patfm>
that could be used to side step excerpts vs abstracts
- [08:23:10] <KevinMarks>
class="abstract" lang="en"
- [08:23:41] <bunnywabbit_>
blockquote is for quotations
- [08:23:55] <bunnywabbit_>
I don't consider an abstract (in the sense I use it on my blog) like a quotation
- [08:23:58] <patfm>
there's also q, which no one seems to use
- [08:24:05] <bunnywabbit_>
q is inline
- [08:24:13] * bunnywabbit_ uses q
- [08:24:22] <bunnywabbit_>
wrote a post on q vs. cite at one point
- [08:24:31] <KevinMarks>
blockquote has a cite attribute for referring to the source
- [08:24:40] <patfm>
KevinMarks: do you guys have stats on what tags people actually use?
- [08:25:01] <KevinMarks>
hTML tags?
- [08:25:15] <KevinMarks>
no, we mung the text out and index that
- [08:25:21] <patfm>
maybe a blockquote + cite + language attributes would be a good place to start
- [08:25:28] <patfm>
i see
- [08:25:49] <patfm>
s/attributes/attributes combination/
- [08:26:21] <patfm>
so having these conventional class names is part of microformats, right
- [08:26:51] <bunnywabbit_>
http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2001/04/21/html-et-linguistique/
- [08:27:38] <KevinMarks>
well a microformat principle is nto to invent stuff if HTML already has a way to say it
- [08:27:40] * patfm reaches for dictionary :)
- [08:27:42] <bunnywabbit_>
<div id="post-slug-fr-abstract" lang="fr" rel="??">This is my french abstract.</div>
- [08:28:02] <KevinMarks>
you can't use rel on a div
- [08:28:06] <KevinMarks>
you cna use class though
- [08:28:07] <bunnywabbit_>
aha
- [08:28:09] <bunnywabbit_>
true
- [08:28:17] <KevinMarks>
and class is multivalued
- [08:28:18] <bunnywabbit_>
so where can you use rel?
- [08:28:24] <KevinMarks>
on a link
- [08:28:25] <Frederic>
in a link
- [08:28:29] <bunnywabbit_>
dam
- [08:28:30] <bunnywabbit_>
n
- [08:28:33] <bunnywabbit_>
is that all?
- [08:28:56] <KevinMarks>
rel defines the relationship fo the destination to the source
- [08:29:00] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: to define relationship you have to point on something, don't you?
- [08:29:08] <KevinMarks>
you do
- [08:29:11] <patfm>
so maybe like, (blockquote (cite (a) ) )
- [08:29:16] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: you also have ref
- [08:29:22] <KevinMarks>
rev
- [08:29:29] <KevinMarks>
for reverse relationship
- [08:29:29] <Frederic>
rev
- [08:29:41] <Frederic>
check Ryan's post about it on mf blog
- [08:29:48] <bunnywabbit_>
so I could have <a href="#post-slug-fr-abstract" rel="abstract" hreflang="fr" title="Résumé en français.">Résumé français</a> at the end of my english post
- [08:29:51] <bunnywabbit_>
but then
- [08:30:02] <bunnywabbit_>
we wouldn't know what english content relates to that french abstract
- [08:30:09] <bunnywabbit_>
see the problem?
- [08:30:11] <KevinMarks>
http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
- [08:30:21] <bunnywabbit_>
patfm: I do't like the blockquote
- [08:30:26] <bunnywabbit_>
what are we quoting?
- [08:30:45] <bunnywabbit_>
quoting is "I'm reproducing here something that has been printed elsewhere"
- [08:31:08] <KevinMarks>
quoting and translating is a bit tricky, yes
- [08:31:42] <bunnywabbit_>
if I stick my english content in an id-ed div, then could I set a relationship between source and abstract saying
- [08:31:52] <bunnywabbit_>
here is the source of the abstract I'm pointing to?
- [08:31:58] <bunnywabbit_>
let me read the faq
- [08:31:59] <patfm>
yeah actually i don't really either... (blockquote|div|?? (cite (a hreflang=fr rel=abstract ) ) )
- [08:32:58] <bunnywabbit_>
The rel values in HTML follow a consistent pattern which at a minimum *implies* a deliberate design. rel describes the relationship of a hyperlink in terms of what the destination (href) is, to the source, or from the source's perspective. <-- what is the source? the source PAGE? that's problematic on multi-post pages
- [08:33:47] <patfm>
i think you could think of it as a post, any reason why not?
- [08:34:15] <bunnywabbit_>
ah!
- [08:34:16] <bunnywabbit_>
Are "rel" attributes, and linktypes in general, just document to document?
- [08:35:13] <KevinMarks>
ish
- [08:35:19] <KevinMarks>
there is soem hadnwaving
- [08:35:37] <KevinMarks>
about partial documenst that we use to support them in posts
- [08:35:50] <bunnywabbit_>
"Thus linktypes in general may be either from a whole document or part of a document to a whole document or a part of a document."
- [08:36:48] <patfm>
and to be anal i could aska bout whether it counts for one part of a document to another part of the same document... but i won't. :)
- [08:37:23] * bunnywabbit_ feels out of her depth
- [08:38:41] <patfm>
so the point of a microformat here is to establish some conventional markup for indicating where to find translation, right
- [08:39:02] <patfm>
*a translation
- [08:39:07] <bunnywabbit_>
or the other-language-version which is not necessarily a translation
- [08:39:21] <bunnywabbit_>
remember our discussions some months back
- [08:39:35] <patfm>
right... in that conversatoin that kevin had with tim oren they even mentioned linking ot machine translation, for instance
- [08:39:39] <bunnywabbit_>
it's often more practical to "say something again in another language" rather than really translate it
- [08:39:44] <patfm>
yeah
- [08:39:49] <bunnywabbit_>
so machine translation is very different
- [08:40:05] <bunnywabbit_>
machine translation concentrates on the surface of wordds
- [08:40:22] <bunnywabbit_>
"saying again" concentrates on meaning and intention, sometimes very loosely
- [08:40:41] <patfm>
i guess i tend to think in terms of closer translation since that's what we're working on in our project but i think you're right that many people translate loosely
- [08:40:41] <KevinMarks>
alternate is vague enough
- [08:40:59] <bunnywabbit_>
how would you define the relationship between my post and the "other language excerpt" here http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/22/requirements-for-a-multilingual-wordpress-plugin/ ?
- [08:41:06] <KevinMarks>
we could add nuance by having more rels later
- [08:41:15] <bunnywabbit_>
or here? http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/16/etre-madame-blogs/
- [08:41:16] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:41:22] <bunnywabbit_>
so rel="alternate"
- [08:41:26] <bunnywabbit_>
but the thing is
- [08:41:34] <bunnywabbit_>
I don't link to my abstracts
- [08:41:35] <KevinMarks>
rel="abstract" hreflang="fr" ?
- [08:41:37] <bunnywabbit_>
or from my abstracts
- [08:41:45] <KevinMarks>
or
- [08:41:51] <bunnywabbit_>
the link only makes sense if they're on a different page, right?
- [08:42:12] <bunnywabbit_>
the html spec seems to say it should be rel=alternate lang="fr" but hreflang would make more sense
- [08:42:21] <bunnywabbit_>
oh.... we can invent new rel terms, right?
- [08:42:46] * chryss (n=chris@82.98.3.22) has joined #microformats
- [08:42:48] <KevinMarks>
<div lang="fr" class="abstract">Quelques r�flexions concernant un plugin multilingue pour WordPress.</div><div lang="en" class="entry">My blog has been bilingual for a long time now. [...]
- [08:42:50] <KevinMarks>
maybe
- [08:43:18] <KevinMarks>
we can to some extent; it requires a bit mroe justification than inventing classes
- [08:43:25] <bunnywabbit_>
that means you impose class names?
- [08:43:37] <KevinMarks>
I have invented some rel values
- [08:43:37] <bunnywabbit_>
how about people who like writing their class names in their mother tongue? :-)
- [08:43:39] <patfm>
or: : <div lang="fr" class="abstract">Quelques r?flexions concernant un plugin multilingue pour WordPress.</div><cite lang="en" class="entry">My blog has been bilingual for a long time now.</cite></div>
- [08:43:41] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:43:54] <bunnywabbit_>
euh
- [08:43:56] <bunnywabbit_>
cite?!
- [08:43:56] <KevinMarks>
better not to, but you cna have multiple class names
- [08:43:59] <bunnywabbit_>
why on earth cite?
- [08:44:05] <patfm>
heh, is cite evil?
- [08:44:09] <KevinMarks>
but the point is to converge
- [08:44:10] <chryss>
actually, those class names would be fine to impose in a blogging plugin, i think. they might well interface with the develompent of multilingual-ready themes
- [08:44:12] <bunnywabbit_>
but what good does the class name do?
- [08:44:20] <bunnywabbit_>
patfm: not evil, but it seems out of context here
- [08:44:34] <patfm>
well there has to be a link in there somewhere doesn't there?
- [08:44:36] <bunnywabbit_>
I mean... I wouldn't use cite here
- [08:44:38] <bunnywabbit_>
yeah but
- [08:44:39] <bunnywabbit_>
cite
- [08:44:42] <chryss>
patfm, hum, i don't think cite is appropriate here
- [08:44:44] <bunnywabbit_>
is for journal names, etc
- [08:44:47] <bunnywabbit_>
people names
- [08:44:47] <KevinMarks>
cite is wrong
- [08:44:49] <patfm>
i'm just trying to think of a place to hang the lang tags
- [08:44:50] <bunnywabbit_>
not for original text
- [08:44:51] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:44:58] <bunnywabbit_>
well you can hang the lang tags anywehre
- [08:45:01] <patfm>
heh
- [08:45:08] <bunnywabbit_>
but I agree with patfm we need to stick a url somewhere
- [08:45:13] <bunnywabbit_>
couldn't the url go in the rel ?
- [08:45:23] <bunnywabbit_>
ah no... rel can't go anywhere, just on links
- [08:45:29] <bunnywabbit_>
how about a cite attribute?
- [08:45:35] <bunnywabbit_>
can that only go on blockquote and q tags?
- [08:45:43] <patfm>
i'm not hung up on cite, it just seems to me that cite is supposed to indicate an author
- [08:45:55] <patfm>
is there a cite attribute?
- [08:46:10] <KevinMarks>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues#Entry_Summary_.28atom:summary.29
- [08:46:26] <KevinMarks>
there is a cite attribute on blockquote which is a url iirc
- [08:46:36] <bunnywabbit_>
yes
- [08:46:41] <bunnywabbit_>
we'd need something like that
- [08:46:45] <bunnywabbit_>
only not on blockquote
- [08:46:49] <bunnywabbit_>
because we're not citing anything
- [08:46:51] <bunnywabbit_>
ideally
- [08:47:00] <patfm>
i confess that i find hAtom confusing
- [08:47:31] <bunnywabbit_>
<div class="abstract" cite="http://mybloguri.com/#my-post">abstract</div> (not good, but this kind of idea)
- [08:48:09] <KevinMarks>
biab
- [08:48:27] <patfm>
what about the minimalist tack: the microformat "is" the way that you link to translated stuff, not necessarily how you mark up your actually translated content
- [08:50:09] <patfm>
bunnywabbit_: shall we go back to finding a bunch of examples?
- [08:50:39] <patfm>
we could start a delicious tag and then i couuld convert them to the wiki markup en masse
- [08:50:51] <bunnywabbit_>
gosh, cute kittens: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2648/379/1600/stinking%20kittens.0.jpg
- [08:51:07] <bunnywabbit_>
ok
- [08:51:09] <patfm>
"polyblog", maybe? heh, wait. that has... overtones. heh.
- [08:51:14] <bunnywabbit_>
good
- [08:51:18] <bunnywabbit_>
polyblog is nice
- [08:51:21] <patfm>
freaky eyes :)
- [08:51:31] <bunnywabbit_>
they have nice markup (the kittens)
- [08:51:33] <bunnywabbit_>
er
- [08:51:35] <bunnywabbit_>
markings ;-)
- [08:51:38] <patfm>
haha
- [08:51:43] <patfm>
tmblian slip ;)
- [08:52:00] <patfm>
*timblian. o whatever heh
- [09:07:56] <Frederic>
I wonder how reliable techcrunch news are
- [09:08:02] <kingryan|out>
omg, kittens
- [09:08:37] <Frederic>
I have a post saying that Amazon is topping the tag experience but it only appears in bloglines and shows me a 404 on the site
- [09:08:41] <kingryan|out>
Frederic, techcrunch? why do you say that?
- [09:08:41] <Frederic>
Hi kingryan|out
- [09:08:48] * kingryan|out is now known as kingryan
- [09:09:07] <kingryan>
hi Frederic
- [09:09:23] <Frederic>
Amazon Tags, which were announced on November 11, 2005, have been quietly removed from the site.
- [09:09:26] <Frederic>
The example I used in my previous post clearly shows a tagging area at the bottom of the item description. A look at the same item on Amazon now shows that the feature has been removed. A new comment to that post alerted me to the change.
- [09:09:30] <Frederic>
No word from Amazon on the reason for the removal.
- [09:09:34] <Frederic>
That's what I read in bloglines
- [09:09:55] <Frederic>
http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/01/21/amazon-ends-tags-experiment/
- [09:12:04] <kingryan>
that url is a 404 for me
- [09:12:07] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [09:12:08] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [09:12:10] <patfm>
amazon pages have become bewildering
- [09:12:45] <kingryan>
yes, patfm
- [09:12:53] <Frederic>
kingryan: that page is 404 for me too, but I have it in bloglines anyway
- [09:12:58] <kingryan>
I only pay attention to 2 things on the whole page
- [09:13:18] <Frederic>
The price?
- [09:13:26] <patfm>
i imagine it would take 5 or 6 decimal places to specify the percentage of users who noticed the tag stuff :)
- [09:13:27] <kingryan>
and "add to wishlist"
- [09:13:28] <kingryan>
:D
- [09:14:02] <Frederic>
yeah too
- [09:14:32] <Frederic>
Been a long time since no one offered me something. They use my paypal link now. I think it's because my wishlist is in french
- [09:15:10] <kingryan>
Fredric, I'll have to bug michael about the techcrunch ting
- [09:15:12] <kingryan>
thing*
- [09:15:18] <kingryan>
he's not online now, though
- [09:15:48] <kingryan>
otherwise, I'd pester him now
- [09:17:32] <Frederic>
OK
- [09:17:46] <Frederic>
I don't know him, otherwise I would have done it myself
- [09:18:08] <Frederic>
I wanted to relay the info in French, but I'll have to way I guess
- [09:20:28] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
- [09:22:14] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
- [09:23:32] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: well at least they do give you something
- [09:23:46] <bunnywabbit_>
only person who got me something is KevinMarks ;-)
- [09:24:05] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: you've separated your two language blogs now, right?
- [09:26:33] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: actually I don't have the time and the motivation to translate my posts
- [09:26:42] <Frederic>
But I need to restart
- [09:26:58] <kingryan>
you could have mechanical turk to it
- [09:27:07] <Frederic>
I don't even have a class to display English posts
- [09:27:09] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: which is why i don't translate mine
- [09:27:18] <bunnywabbit_>
but you know that already ;-)
- [09:27:22] <bunnywabbit_>
I just do excerpts
- [09:27:57] <Frederic>
kingryan: I was more thinking about underpaid chinese guys living in my basement and coding stuffs for pizza
- [09:28:24] <kingryan>
Frederic, I'm not sure that scales well
- [09:30:22] <Frederic>
I wonder why my bloglines is one day in Japanese and the other day in Spanish while my settings say it must be in English
- [09:30:52] <bunnywabbit_>
haha
- [09:32:23] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: people give me cash for the themes
- [09:32:32] <KevinMarks>
back
- [09:32:34] <Frederic>
which helps me to pay the server
- [09:34:26] <KevinMarks>
we coudl do with some underpaid chines guys to explain what all those chiense blogs in the top 100 are about
- [09:36:31] * KevinMarks wonders if he shoudl still be up if he can misspell chinese twice differently in the same sentence
- [09:37:09] <bunnywabbit_>
the ten commandments of bilingual blogging don't sound very nice to me
- [09:37:13] <bunnywabbit_>
they start really badly
- [09:37:16] <bunnywabbit_>
"Language change. There should be a button, link, or pulldown menu to click or select, present in every page. That's the way to turn from reading content in one language to the other in a bilingual blog. Mixtures of languages in individual pages, no, that's not OK. Langauge change behaviour could vary: the distinction between symmetrical and asymmetrical blogs that I describe here is a key issue."
- [09:37:27] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: that's good
- [09:37:36] <bunnywabbit_>
KevinMarks: what time is it?
- [09:38:24] <bunnywabbit_>
this guy (the one who wrote the 10 commandments) thinks he has monolingual readers.
- [09:42:22] <KevinMarks>
1.40am
- [09:42:37] <Frederic>
bunnywabbit_: I was once thinking about using a javascript and some display none css to show / hide the English part
- [09:45:08] <KevinMarks>
so, examples shoudl be extended to show what amrkup is currently used to indicate languages
- [09:46:12] <bunnywabbit_>
Frederic: problem with that is search engines
- [09:46:19] <bunnywabbit_>
and bandwidth can be an issue
- [09:46:23] <bunnywabbit_>
how about ajaxifying it?
- [09:46:31] <KevinMarks>
simpler than that
- [09:46:46] <KevinMarks>
can't you do a css selector on lang ?
- [09:46:47] <bunnywabbit_>
ahahifying
- [09:46:50] <bunnywabbit_>
you can
- [09:46:55] <bunnywabbit_>
I'm already doing it
- [09:47:10] <bunnywabbit_>
daniel put the code for it on his blog (with js) in 2002
- [09:47:13] <KevinMarks>
so you could show/hide the other lang
- [09:47:16] <bunnywabbit_>
to show-hide
- [09:47:17] <bunnywabbit_>
yep
- [09:47:21] <KevinMarks>
good, precedents!
- [09:47:22] <bunnywabbit_>
that's what Frederic is thinking about
- [09:47:33] <bunnywabbit_>
so Frederic: you'll find the code on daniel glazman's blog
- [09:47:42] <bunnywabbit_>
(if you need it)
- [09:47:44] <KevinMarks>
so let me refactor this problem statement
- [09:47:58] <bunnywabbit_>
I had it briefly on CTTS but gave up because of lack of browser support at the time
- [09:48:08] <kingryan>
you can't select on language in IE
- [09:48:24] <bunnywabbit_>
well, ffox is more present than it was 4 years ago
- [09:48:24] <KevinMarks>
1) indicating language of sub-sections (use lang="xx") - enables CSS-fu and parsing
- [09:48:33] <bunnywabbit_>
yes
- [09:48:44] * bunnywabbit_ is now known as bunny_RSI
- [09:48:47] <bunny_RSI>
*ouch* :-(
- [09:49:25] <KevinMarks>
2) indicating alternative versions in other languages (use rel="alternate" hreflang="xx")
- [09:49:33] <bunny_RSI>
yes
- [09:49:40] <chryss>
KevinMarks, ok, i'll set a precedent ... but not sure if i finish my redesign today
- [09:50:09] <bunny_RSI>
I updated my blog post: http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/22/requirements-for-a-multilingual-wordpress-plugin/
- [09:50:10] <KevinMarks>
3) indicating the various kinds of alternatives - translation, abstract, original
- [09:50:20] <bunny_RSI>
or... reformulation ?
- [09:50:26] <bunny_RSI>
how do you say that in english?
- [09:50:36] <chryss>
KevinMarks, what's "translation"? "translator"?
- [09:50:38] <KevinMarks>
3 is the one where we need to work out the significance
- [09:50:41] <chryss>
and all these optional...
- [09:50:58] <bunny_RSI>
translation, abstract, original and reformulation seems to cover it
- [09:51:07] <bunny_RSI>
if reformulation is english
- [09:51:11] <chryss>
"reformulations"... don't like it
- [09:51:39] <KevinMarks>
I'm thinking rel="alternate original" lang="fr" for my link to a post of yours I translated
- [09:51:43] <KevinMarks>
paraphrase?
- [09:52:02] <chryss>
yes, but bear in mind that in many cases there won't be an "original" and a "translated version"
- [09:52:17] <KevinMarks>
well, in that case alternate alone is OK
- [09:52:26] <chryss>
otoh, that case is important, too.
- [09:52:38] <chryss>
my "that case" is your case
- [09:52:39] <chryss>
:)
- [09:52:44] <chryss>
not mine
- [09:53:21] <KevinMarks>
the case that patfm and Tim Oren were interested in was an attempted faithful translation of another post (whetehr by the same author or not)
- [09:54:13] <KevinMarks>
chryss, if you write 2 versions yourself on the same topic in different languages, is 'alternate' OK or not?
- [09:54:16] <chryss>
yes, ... what i said meant to convey that this _is_ a very important case
- [09:54:21] <chryss>
yes
- [09:54:22] <KevinMarks>
I agree
- [09:54:37] <chryss>
it's what i use, and it think it's fine to keep it so loose
- [09:55:09] <KevinMarks>
I think "alternate" is the broad case; the question is if we can add useful meaning by coming up wiht some more specific ones where they apply
- [09:55:16] <chryss>
ACTION is currently listening to
- [09:55:19] <chryss>
hm
- [09:55:23] <KevinMarks>
which does mean looking for examples
- [09:55:56] <chryss>
look at the current state of my markup http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
- [09:56:03] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [09:56:03] <chryss>
a better version is being worked on
- [09:56:12] <chryss>
what does wikipedia do?
- [09:56:17] * chryss goes looking
- [09:56:17] <KevinMarks>
eg all formal EU documents are supposed to be equivalently translated in many languages
- [09:56:26] <KevinMarks>
wikipedia forks
- [09:56:35] <chryss>
ah, you mean that
- [09:56:41] <KevinMarks>
compare the English and French articles on Napoleon
- [09:56:43] <chryss>
canada
- [09:56:52] <chryss>
yes, but wrt markup i mean
- [09:57:22] <chryss>
but that _is_ a relevant example: there are cases of faithful translations, and other with big multilingual reference sites
- [09:58:00] <KevinMarks>
right
- [09:58:19] <bunny_RSI>
paraphrase is good
- [09:58:24] <KevinMarks>
your use of lang looks good
- [09:58:45] * KevinMarks massages bunny's wrists
- [09:58:50] <chryss>
paraphrase is pretty restrictive, though
- [09:58:53] <chryss>
<li class="interwiki-ar"><a href="http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%88%D9%84%D9%88%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B3">العربية</a></li>
- [09:58:53] <chryss>
<li class="interwiki-bg"><a href="http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%83%D1%86">Български</a></li>
- [09:58:53] <chryss>
<li class="interwiki-cs"><a href="http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc">Česky</a></li>
- [09:58:53] <chryss>
<li class="interwiki-en"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc">English</a></li>
- [09:58:58] <chryss>
wikipedia does... nothing
- [09:59:09] <chryss>
except the classes
- [09:59:18] <bunny_RSI>
rel="alternate original" rev="paraphrase" hreflang="fr" for me saying in other words in english what was said elsewhere in french
- [09:59:21] <KevinMarks>
so, room for improvement there
- [09:59:39] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [10:00:05] <KevinMarks>
we shoudl drag _sj_ into this, he's the wikipedia polyglot guru
- [10:00:30] <bunny_RSI>
oh right
- [10:00:37] <bunny_RSI>
where is he?
- [10:00:47] <bunny_RSI>
is he up?
- [10:00:49] <KevinMarks>
I think he's east coast US so likely asleep
- [10:00:53] <bunny_RSI>
damn.
- [10:03:06] <chryss>
ok, the canadian covernment uses "lang" but no "alternate... attention, slight flood
- [10:03:09] <chryss>
<td valign="bottom" width="150"><table width="150" summary="Our tables are used for the page layout. Nos tables sont utilisées pour la mise en page." border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0">
- [10:03:10] <chryss>
<tr>
- [10:03:10] <chryss>
<td width="75" align="center"><a title="English" href="/main_e.html"><img src="/images/englishbt.gif" alt="English" height="27" border="0" width="91"></a></td>
- [10:03:10] <chryss>
<td></td>
- [10:03:10] <chryss>
<td width="75" align="center"><a title="Français" href="/main_f.html" lang="fr"><img src="/images/francaisbt.gif" alt="Français" height="27" border="0" width="91"></a></td>
- [10:03:13] <chryss>
</tr>
- [10:03:20] <chryss>
i left the first bit in for your amusement
- [10:03:58] <chryss>
there's a "lang=en" at the top of the page, so only "lang=fr" is indicated. "hreflang" would be a good idea, too....
- [10:04:20] <bunny_RSI>
ew
- [10:04:21] <bunny_RSI>
haha
- [10:04:22] <KevinMarks>
chryss, can you put these markup fragments in http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples
- [10:04:31] <chryss>
ok KevinMarks
- [10:05:18] <chryss>
uh, do you mind if i add my "better" multilingual blog? dangereusetrilingue is a hack job, no attributes or hardly
- [10:05:26] <KevinMarks>
this kind fo thing is really helpful in convincing people that it is worthwhile
- [10:05:40] <KevinMarks>
of course - best practices are encouraged
- [10:06:43] <KevinMarks>
the closest I get to multilingual blogging is http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_epeus_archive.html#200186448
- [10:06:53] <chryss>
uh, what kind of "valid username" does microformats.org want?
- [10:07:04] <KevinMarks>
WikiFriendly
- [10:07:11] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4297 * StephanieBooth * (+677)
- [10:07:17] <bunny_RSI>
just added a sample from my site
- [10:07:21] <chryss>
You have not specified a valid user name.
- [10:07:47] <bunny_RSI>
ouch
- [10:08:02] <bunny_RSI>
how do I insert code, KevinMarks ?
- [10:08:12] <KevinMarks>
er, let me check
- [10:08:17] <chryss>
maybe i need someone to sign me up? or should i do it anonymously?
- [10:08:42] <bunny_RSI>
they say start with a space
- [10:08:50] <bunny_RSI>
chryss: no no you can sign up yourself
- [10:09:06] <chryss>
with a _space_?
- [10:09:48] <chryss>
ah, ok, it's fine with ChrisFW
- [10:10:23] <KevinMarks>
put <pre><nowiki> </nowiki></pre>
- [10:10:23] <KevinMarks>
around it bunny
- [10:11:09] <KevinMarks>
there are otehr ways but that is simplest
- [10:12:27] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4298 * StephanieBooth * (+11) Code Samples -
- [10:12:27] <bunny_RSI>
ah
- [10:12:29] <bunny_RSI>
got it
- [10:13:25] <bunny_RSI>
KevinMarks: still refactoring the problem statement?
- [10:13:30] <KevinMarks>
if you use <pre> adding extra newlines is good
- [10:14:12] <KevinMarks>
let me remap what I said here into the wiki
- [10:14:58] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4299 * StephanieBooth * (+33) Code Samples -
- [10:17:09] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4300 * Kevin Marks * (+134) Managing multilingual blogs and sites -
- [10:23:40] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4301 * ChrisFW * (+585)
- [10:23:53] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:23:53] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [10:25:16] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4302 * ChrisFW * (+10) From http://serendipity.lascribe.net/ -
- [10:29:17] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4303 * Kevin Marks * (+916) refactor order; add summary of approaches
- [10:29:26] <KevinMarks>
how's that bunny?
- [10:29:48] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4304 * ChrisFW * (+684)
- [10:30:04] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #microformats
- [10:31:35] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [10:33:45] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4305 * ChrisFW * (+1522)
- [10:36:13] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
- [10:36:30] <patfm>
hi
- [10:36:41] <bunny_RSI>
I'm in the newspapeer again
- [10:36:47] <bunny_RSI>
just learnt it from somebody else
- [10:37:50] <bunny_RSI>
http://www.lematin.ch/nwmatinhome/nwmatinheadactu/actu_suisse/les_romands_s_y_mettent.html
- [10:39:44] <KevinMarks>
they slipped up with that photo instead of using your ones
- [10:40:04] <bunny_RSI>
which ones?
- [10:40:09] <bunny_RSI>
it's one of the flickr ones
- [10:40:17] <bunny_RSI>
but they obviously needed one that looked wintery
- [10:40:25] <bunny_RSI>
oh wait
- [10:40:28] <bunny_RSI>
you can't see the photo online
- [10:40:28] <KevinMarks>
I see a bloke
- [10:40:34] <bunny_RSI>
yeah, that's Laurent
- [10:40:37] <KevinMarks>
laurent Haug
- [10:40:41] <bunny_RSI>
(Haug, not Brunetti)
- [10:40:44] <bunny_RSI>
friend of mine
- [10:40:51] <bunny_RSI>
and organiser of lift06.org
- [10:41:05] <bunny_RSI>
it's a one-page article
- [10:41:12] <bunny_RSI>
with the blogs down the right and left
- [10:41:15] <bunny_RSI>
and a phtoo for each blog
- [10:41:24] <KevinMarks>
aha
- [10:41:41] <KevinMarks>
so in the real paper peopel will look at you first
- [10:41:51] <bunny_RSI>
oh weird
- [10:41:54] <bunny_RSI>
it's not on flickr
- [10:42:04] <bunny_RSI>
no, he's 3 times as big as me
- [10:42:28] <patfm>
i found a couple more formats to think about:
- [10:42:30] <patfm>
http://web.archive.org/web/20050206173408/http://jej.notatnik.net/
- [10:42:38] <patfm>
(formats in a loose sense)
- [10:43:01] <patfm>
http://merdeinfrance.blogspot.com/ (rather unpleasant tone, this one)
- [10:43:13] <bunny_RSI>
it is
- [10:43:17] <bunny_RSI>
yucky site
- [10:43:22] <bunny_RSI>
patfm: I thought you werew sleeping
- [10:43:36] <patfm>
anyway, they're interesting examples -- the first one is essentially two unrelated blogs on a single page, the second is actually one-to-one
- [10:43:50] <patfm>
made coffee O.o
- [10:44:00] <bunny_RSI>
emmanuelle.net
- [10:44:02] * chryss is out of milk
- [10:44:07] <bunny_RSI>
paragraph by paragraph translation
- [10:44:14] <chryss>
should take that as a sign :) ... rooi bush tea for me
- [10:44:25] <patfm>
hmm interesting
- [10:44:29] <KevinMarks>
add them in to http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples
- [10:44:35] <patfm>
wow, even within a single post
- [10:44:54] <bunny_RSI>
painful to read
- [10:44:57] <bunny_RSI>
for bilingual people
- [10:45:03] <bunny_RSI>
because I tend to read both languages at a time
- [10:45:04] <patfm>
yep, i'm making a list
- [10:45:09] <bunny_RSI>
and get everything twice
- [10:45:09] <bunny_RSI>
annoying
- [10:45:14] <patfm>
tyhat format is kind of illogical imho
- [10:47:18] <KevinMarks>
well, thats where a lang="xx" on the blocks and a js/CSS show/hide would work well
- [10:48:36] * felipe (n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se) has joined #microformats
- [10:49:01] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4306 * ChrisFW * (+181) Examples of multilingual blogs -
- [10:49:12] <chryss>
added http://www.nakedtranslations.com/
- [10:49:24] <chryss>
i think these are two separate MT blogs
- [10:50:59] <patfm>
http://www.margaret-marks.com/Transblawg/ multilingual, but not translation (despite the fact that it's by a translator!) (good blog, too)
- [10:51:23] <chryss>
yes, i thought of adding margaret...
- [10:51:33] <chryss>
but she rarely does text in german
- [10:52:16] <patfm>
interesting how she does the titles-- "Interpreting error / Fehler beim Dolmetschen"
- [10:52:19] <patfm>
same tag.
- [10:52:28] <patfm>
er, element.
- [10:52:34] <patfm>
er, .... you know what i mean.
- [10:53:19] <patfm>
she just freely mixes, no markup distinction at all
- [10:53:43] <chryss>
same at céline's blog (naked translations)
- [10:54:01] <chryss>
no attributes whatsoever that encode language metadata
- [10:54:27] <patfm>
right, and they're pretty tech-savvy
- [10:55:10] <patfm>
well, i haven't read céline's blog but margaret marks talks about xml on occasion, etc
- [10:55:33] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [10:58:01] <bunny_RSI>
91-year-old blogger: http://serendip.epfl.ch/Chevilly1/
- [10:58:31] <KevinMarks>
bunnym that paper has 5 blokes and you
- [10:58:39] <KevinMarks>
I'm betting on your picture
- [10:58:43] <bunny_RSI>
7 blokes and me
- [10:58:45] <patfm>
wow, and an impressive list of categories for a 91-year-old
- [10:58:58] <bunny_RSI>
and I'm titled "the woman"
- [10:59:05] <bunny_RSI>
they needed one
- [10:59:17] <bunny_RSI>
phd in arts
- [11:00:19] <patfm>
wow, when you start digging into the options for multilingual blogging, there are tons
- [11:01:40] <chryss>
here's one i'll add http://www.metameat.net/kafka/index.php kafka's diaries
- [11:01:50] <chryss>
oh, yes... i'm mainly filing through my own brain for memories of interesting sites
- [11:03:09] <KevinMarks>
excellent - this is just what we need - mroe exampels of approaches
- [11:03:22] <KevinMarks>
"the woman" is ratehr unsubtle
- [11:04:22] * chryss is throwing a bunch of frozen beans, peas and mushrooms in a frying pan... HUNGER
- [11:04:25] <chryss>
i'm unsubtle?
- [11:05:22] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4307 * ChrisFW * (+72) Examples of multilingual blogs -
- [11:05:38] <KevinMarks>
no, the subeditor at the swiss newspaper is
- [11:06:10] <chryss>
oh
- [11:07:47] <patfm>
heh, one guy labels his english/french blog "Lang(u)age"
- [11:07:54] <KevinMarks>
la femme token
- [11:07:58] <patfm>
try marking up that word heh
- [11:08:36] <KevinMarks>
whats the iso code for franglais?
- [11:09:14] <chryss>
fr_GB
- [11:09:25] <chryss>
oh, and technologies du langage of course
- [11:11:24] * conann (n=conann@host81-129-70-243.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [11:11:36] <patfm>
http://frenchfragfactory.net/ozh/index.php is interesting, it has js to toggle en/fr, but only if there is a post in that language, so if you're set to en you might see en(fr), en, fr, en(fr)
- [11:11:43] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4308 * ChrisFW * (+129) Examples of multilingual blogs -
- [11:12:02] <KevinMarks>
I should write up the chat I had with wk and om at lunch marked up with lang="en-uk" and "en-za" and "en-us"
- [11:12:10] <patfm>
chryss: you mean fr_US :)
- [11:13:19] <chryss>
demends
- [11:13:21] <chryss>
er
- [11:13:22] <chryss>
pends
- [11:14:01] <KevinMarks>
franglais is a UK think mostly
- [11:14:31] <KevinMarks>
we should add a 'for goodness sake don't use flags' clause somewhere
- [11:17:08] <KevinMarks>
http://www.fva.org/vnflag/vc-flag.htm
- [11:19:24] <chryss>
patfm has a good post on that
- [11:22:06] <patfm>
argh site's down again
- [11:22:09] <patfm>
i cry
- [11:26:43] <chryss>
patfm, i can access it
- [11:26:50] <bunny_RSI>
yes, KevinMarks
- [11:26:52] <bunny_RSI>
very true
- [11:27:17] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [11:27:37] <patfm>
o.. hmm
- [11:37:25] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4309 * Patfm * (+1078) first stab at some labels (hello irc channel.)
- [11:40:07] <patfm>
so if someone asks "what's the benefit of making the effort to add markup to my translated content?", what's the reply
- [11:40:31] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4310 * ChrisFW * (+63) markup cleanup ... hi pat
- [11:41:02] <patfm>
heh, thanks chryss
- [11:41:10] <chryss>
uh, patfm that's still a bit unfinished there...
- [11:41:11] <patfm>
i left it a bit of a disaster didn't i
- [11:41:21] <chryss>
and put in link text. i just did that for mine
- [11:41:41] <patfm>
but my clever disaster resulted in you fixing my crummy markup. hehe
- [11:42:03] <chryss>
sorry, your categorisation is more like tags
- [11:42:08] <chryss>
no, i didn't fix all of it yet
- [11:42:13] <chryss>
i don't understand your titles
- [11:42:20] <patfm>
i'm just trying to describe the layout
- [11:42:58] <chryss>
look those blogs are sometimes in several categories...
- [11:43:01] <patfm>
maybe we shouuldh ave short text descriptions for different styles
- [11:43:17] <chryss>
like "language choice passed through urls" ... that's the case of mine, but also naked translations, where it's two separate blogs
- [11:44:10] <patfm>
yeah
- [11:44:24] <chryss>
i'll give it a onceover
- [11:45:17] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4311 * Patfm * (+77) Side-by-side (not translated) -
- [11:45:40] <patfm>
argh, i didn't mean to save that. jeeze, this bot makes me self conscious
- [11:46:38] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4312 * Patfm * (-610) One language per post - move this bit.
- [11:51:33] <chryss>
patfm, i'm refactoring this totally
- [11:52:24] <chryss>
patfm, i don't understand jej ... is this a polish blog with an english sidebar?
- [11:54:24] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4313 * Patfm * (+618) Completely separate blogs -
- [11:54:46] <patfm>
chryss: yeah, that's a good way to describe it
- [11:54:57] <patfm>
i was just trying to point out that the posts have no relation to each other
- [11:55:12] <chryss>
well, that's true for loads of other blogs we've listed in other categories
- [11:55:43] <chryss>
"separate blogs" means, for us, "separate installs of blogging tools"
- [11:55:44] <patfm>
in a single view?
- [11:56:04] <patfm>
i guess we're parsing them in different ways
- [11:56:18] <chryss>
you're coming from the user experience, mostly, but we had been looking at how it was achieved tool wise
- [11:56:19] <patfm>
maybe it wasn't worth my adding the categories
- [11:56:19] <chryss>
yeah
- [11:56:29] <chryss>
give me 10 min
- [11:56:31] <patfm>
right
- [11:56:48] <patfm>
perhaps we should have separate pages
- [11:56:52] <patfm>
ah ok
- [12:01:08] <patfm>
what if you don't know which blogging tools were used?
- [12:03:54] <patfm>
interesting that there are no hreflang attributes on the wikipedia interwiki links
- [12:10:27] <chryss>
most of the time you can tell from the source code. others are handcrafted
- [12:11:14] <patfm>
brb, gotta reboot my modem
- [12:11:19] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
- [12:13:56] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4314 * ChrisFW * (-442) reorganized listing
- [12:19:04] * bunny_RSI is now known as bunny_wants_CSS
- [12:22:40] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
- [12:22:40] <jibot>
patfm is a ?forgetme fiend and http://blogamundo.net/dev and will eventually be destroyed by character encodings and oftentimes clueless
- [12:23:02] <patfm>
oh, much better
- [12:23:24] <bunny_wants_CSS>
wb patfm
- [12:23:36] <bunny_wants_CSS>
has KevinMarks gone to bed?
- [12:24:43] <chryss>
patfm, have a look
- [12:24:49] <chryss>
bunny_wants_CSS, i imagine
- [12:25:00] <chryss>
he's probably killed over and died
- [12:25:38] <bunny_wants_CSS>
keeled over
- [12:25:46] <bunny_wants_CSS>
eggcorn?
- [12:28:48] <chryss>
yess
- [12:29:54] * patf1 (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
- [12:30:20] <chryss>
hm, the author of the polyglot plugin has a trilingual blog, but i can't see them using it :)
- [12:31:04] <patf1>
heh
- [12:31:08] <patf1>
where is it?
- [12:33:03] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4315 * ChrisFW * (+109) One language per post, language varies -
- [12:33:04] <chryss>
just added it http://fredfred.net/skriker/
- [12:41:09] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [12:41:47] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
- [12:41:47] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [12:43:22] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.64.123.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
- [12:44:55] <bunny_wants_CSS>
chryss: that's a bad sign... if a plugin developer doesn't use his plugin
- [12:45:47] * danja (i=DannyAye@host101-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
- [13:02:21] * bunny_wants_CSS is now known as bunnywabbit_
- [13:28:16] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4316 * Patfm * (+113) One language per post, language varies - add Polinesia
- [13:29:11] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4317 * Patfm * (+11) One language per post, language varies - oops, it's trilingual
- [13:31:47] <mfbot>
[[multilingual-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4318 * Patfm * (+93) Previous discussions - another discussion in French
- [13:34:40] * patf1 (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
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- [15:16:26] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00).
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- [17:30:00] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:30:00] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [17:45:14] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [17:48:06] * noocx (n=noocx@caracas-0253.adsl.interware.hu) has joined #microformats
- [17:48:15] <noocx>
hi
- [17:52:54] * noocx (n=noocx@caracas-0253.adsl.interware.hu) Quit (Client Quit)
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- [18:00:37] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [19:58:46] <jibot>
factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
- [20:21:19] <mfbot>
[[s5-tools]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4319 * Downes * (+1170) Added list of S5 editors
- [20:21:40] <mfbot>
[[s5-tools]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4320 * Downes * (-2)
- [20:24:50] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:24:50] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [21:11:32] <mfbot>
[[s5-tools]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4321 * RyanKing * (+230) cleanup up formatting, adding some explanatory text
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- [21:36:39] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4322 * Tim White * (-1525) Types and Roles -
- [21:36:45] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4323 * Tim White * (+1476)
- [21:38:41] <mfbot>
[[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4324 * Tim White * (+12) Contributors -
- [21:39:27] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4325 * Tim White * (+25) Types and Roles -
- [21:44:28] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4326 * Brian * (-5) Comparison chart -
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- [21:52:34] <mfbot>
[[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4327 * Brian * (-15) Comparison chart -
- [21:53:56] <mfbot>
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4328 * EranGloben * (+39)
- [21:57:37] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/distributed-conversation-examples * EranGloben * (+1915) created basic page for distributed conversation examples.
- [22:00:18] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4329 * EranGloben * (-61)
- [22:01:19] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4330 * EranGloben * (+104)
- [22:12:21] <factoryjoe>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/89880590/
- [22:13:55] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4331 * EranGloben * (+1035) added details and discussion of TDL
- [22:15:41] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4332 * EranGloben * (+43) Examples -
- [22:23:27] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4333 * EranGloben * (+466) Examples of Use -
- [22:23:38] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4334 * EranGloben * (+2) Authors -
- [22:23:59] <mfbot>
[[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4335 * EranGloben * (+1)
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- [23:37:44] <factoryjoe>
http://www.torresburriel.com/weblog/?p=859
- [23:40:40] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:41:01] <Enric>
?def Enric
- [23:41:01] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [23:55:23] <mfbot>
[[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4336 * DannyAyers * (+316) ref to IBIS
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- [23:59:50] * drumm has a question about XMDP
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