IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:01:03] * amanuel__ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  3. [00:01:28] <jibot> amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
  4. [00:08:13] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  7. [00:25:13] <bewest|symphony> hey
  8. [00:26:07] <bewest|symphony> who was talking about lazyweb?
  9. [00:26:24] <mfbot> [[media-info-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4279 * Mary Hodder * (+925)
  10. [00:26:25] <bewest|symphony> http://www.43things.com/ is a remakably similar idea
  11. [00:28:55] <mfbot> [[media-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4280 * Mary Hodder * (+113)
  12. [00:29:56] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  13. [00:45:51] <bewest|symphony> oh I saw someone mistakenly posted it already
  14. [00:48:04] * kingryan|away is now known as kingryan
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  16. [00:53:07] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
  17. [00:53:09] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  19. [00:54:29] <bkdelong> I miss anything exciting today?
  20. [00:54:53] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  21. [00:55:22] <bewest|symphony> yeah, tantek and factoryjoe were talkign about a lazyweb
  22. [00:55:27] * rawtext (n=rawtext@pool-68-160-8-234.bos.east.verizon.net) has joined #microformats
  23. [00:55:29] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  24. [00:55:36] <bewest|symphony> and then I stumbled upon http://www.43things.com/ which I thought was remarkably similar
  25. [00:56:31] <bkdelong> A bit different....43things is more general brainstorming, thoughts and ideas and lazyweb.org is specifically for "laziness-induced ideas"
  26. [00:57:22] <kingryan> lazyweb is also, "this should be done, but not by me"
  27. [00:57:34] <kingryan> 43things is "I want to do these things, just not today"
  28. [00:57:42] <bkdelong> right
  29. [00:58:02] <bkdelong> I am KING of LazyWeb....or at least it's Robbie Rotten. ;)
  30. [00:58:35] <bewest|symphony> kingryan: I see little difference in practical day to day life
  31. [00:59:19] <bewest|symphony> both desires would be satisfied by someone else doing it sooner than you in most instances
  32. [00:59:20] <bkdelong> semantics is everything
  33. [00:59:35] <bewest|symphony> with the obvious exception of things you wish to experience
  34. [01:29:42] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
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  36. [01:44:35] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|away
  37. [02:35:51] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  38. [02:46:41] * kingryan|away is now known as kingryan
  39. [03:18:21] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.16.141) Quit ()
  40. [03:30:23] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|out
  41. [04:48:01] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  42. [04:52:17] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ("via the nearest exit")
  43. [04:56:33] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  44. [04:56:33] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  45. [06:21:19] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  46. [06:47:31] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4281 * Yamahige * (+235) Conversion and consumption -
  47. [06:52:52] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4282 * Yamahige * (-1) Conversion and consumption -
  48. [07:02:59] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ()
  49. [07:08:44] <mfbot> [[Template:NewMarker]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:NewMarker&diff=0&oldid=4283 * MarkRickerby * (-6) restyled to match colors from uf identity swatch
  50. [07:09:15] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4284 * MarkRickerby * (-2) del ( braces ) from hatom link
  51. [07:25:21] <mfbot> [[rel-bookmark]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-bookmark&diff=0&oldid=4285 * MarkRickerby * (-7) removed spam links, added redirect to rel-design-pattern
  52. [07:42:43] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-brainstorming * StephanieBooth * (+691)
  53. [07:44:24] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4286 * StephanieBooth * (+326)
  54. [07:44:40] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4287 * StephanieBooth * (+27)
  55. [07:48:16] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4288 * StephanieBooth * (+101)
  56. [07:50:37] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4289 * StephanieBooth * (+187)
  57. [07:53:03] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples * StephanieBooth * (+341)
  58. [07:54:14] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4290 * StephanieBooth * (+29)
  59. [07:54:45] <KevinMarks> evening
  60. [07:54:50] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4291 * StephanieBooth * (+3)
  61. [07:55:51] <KevinMarks> just to note I'm encoraging some multilingual bloggers to walk through the mf process for specifying langauge
  62. [07:58:36] <mfbot> [[User:StephanieBooth]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:StephanieBooth * StephanieBooth * (+132)
  63. [07:59:02] <mfbot> [[User:StephanieBooth]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:StephanieBooth&diff=0&oldid=4292 * StephanieBooth * (+47)
  64. [08:00:33] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4293 * StephanieBooth * (+649)
  65. [08:04:50] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4294 * StephanieBooth * (+594)
  66. [08:12:38] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-14-62.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
  67. [08:12:42] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
  68. [08:12:48] <bunnywabbit_> *boing*
  69. [08:13:03] <bunnywabbit_> probably should be here, huh, KevinMarks and patfm ?
  70. [08:13:21] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4295 * Patfm * (+239) Research - added a few links
  71. [08:13:32] <KevinMarks> especially as the last 20 things in this channel have been your edits, bunny
  72. [08:13:48] <bunnywabbit_> in this channel?
  73. [08:13:50] <bunnywabbit_> oh heck
  74. [08:13:54] <bunnywabbit_> edits appear in here?
  75. [08:13:56] <bunnywabbit_> ew
  76. [08:13:59] <bunnywabbit_> had I known...
  77. [08:14:09] <bunnywabbit_> thanks patfm :-)
  78. [08:14:22] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: I'm still not sure how relevant our whole thing is to "microformats"
  79. [08:14:42] <bunnywabbit_> in what way is the multilingual problem a microformat issue? (apart for the markup side of things, of course)
  80. [08:14:46] <KevinMarks> I think it is very much so
  81. [08:14:58] <bunnywabbit_> then maybe I don't get what a microformat is
  82. [08:15:00] <KevinMarks> getting the markup right is a good foundation
  83. [08:15:01] <bunnywabbit_> could you explain?
  84. [08:15:03] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  85. [08:15:34] <patfm> i think it's related, but i see one potential problem:
  86. [08:15:45] <KevinMarks> the poitn fo microformats is to express meaning in HTML in a way that is both simple to author and parsable by machine
  87. [08:16:02] <patfm> it's hard to think of a whole blog post as a microformat
  88. [08:16:09] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: so should we create a multilingual-markup page?
  89. [08:16:52] <KevinMarks> no thats missing the point, pat
  90. [08:17:08] <KevinMarks> the markup that defiens the raltionships between posts can be a microformat
  91. [08:17:30] <bunnywabbit_> patfm: is the way I try to state the problem clear, or not?
  92. [08:17:38] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: I agree
  93. [08:18:00] <patfm> okay, it's just something i've thought about, because if you think about something like the vcard microformat or whatever, it seems like a self-contained entity
  94. [08:18:18] <KevinMarks> well, that is, but rel="tag" isn't
  95. [08:18:31] <patfm> and in literal (markup) terms, thinking of ablog post led me to think hmm, this isn't going to end up as a big div is it, because people won't do it
  96. [08:18:32] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4296 * StephanieBooth * (+114) Trying to formulate the problem again -
  97. [08:18:34] <KevinMarks> the poitn is clarity of meaning
  98. [08:18:35] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: for the language why don't you use xml:lang="xx" ?
  99. [08:18:49] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: not as simple
  100. [08:18:55] <KevinMarks> because lang and hreflang are HTML
  101. [08:18:56] <bunnywabbit_> we want to define relationships too
  102. [08:19:06] <KevinMarks> xml:lang is a subset
  103. [08:19:16] <bunnywabbit_> and say A is an abstract in lang xx of B which is in lang yy
  104. [08:19:40] <Frederic> hmmmm
  105. [08:19:54] <bunnywabbit_> A and B can be at different URIs or at the same URI - then we're in a mess
  106. [08:19:59] <bunnywabbit_> or we need to id them
  107. [08:20:09] <KevinMarks> require differet URLs
  108. [08:20:14] <KevinMarks> fragment IDs are legit
  109. [08:20:24] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: so how would you deal with my blog?
  110. [08:20:35] <bunnywabbit_> my other-language-abstracts are at the same URL
  111. [08:20:47] <bunnywabbit_> what does "fragment IDs are legit" mean?
  112. [08:20:52] <KevinMarks> well, give them a distinct anchor
  113. [08:20:56] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  114. [08:21:16] <KevinMarks> we are iterating on that issue in hAtom
  115. [08:21:23] * valmont (n=chrishol@dsl092-043-004.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  116. [08:21:25] <KevinMarks> excerpts vs abstracts
  117. [08:21:25] <bunnywabbit_> something like
  118. [08:21:35] <bunnywabbit_> post-slug-xx
  119. [08:21:37] <bunnywabbit_> xx being the language
  120. [08:21:41] <bunnywabbit_> and we could have
  121. [08:21:44] <bunnywabbit_> post-slug-xx-post
  122. [08:21:50] <bunnywabbit_> and post-slug-xx-post
  123. [08:21:56] <bunnywabbit_> and post-slug-xx-excerpt
  124. [08:22:05] <bunnywabbit_> how would you define excerpts vs. abstracts?
  125. [08:22:34] <patfm> maybe it would be better to think in terms of actual tags than more content-oriented terms
  126. [08:22:48] <patfm> because we have span and blockquote, for instance
  127. [08:23:01] <patfm> that could be used to side step excerpts vs abstracts
  128. [08:23:10] <KevinMarks> class="abstract" lang="en"
  129. [08:23:41] <bunnywabbit_> blockquote is for quotations
  130. [08:23:55] <bunnywabbit_> I don't consider an abstract (in the sense I use it on my blog) like a quotation
  131. [08:23:58] <patfm> there's also q, which no one seems to use
  132. [08:24:05] <bunnywabbit_> q is inline
  133. [08:24:13] * bunnywabbit_ uses q
  134. [08:24:22] <bunnywabbit_> wrote a post on q vs. cite at one point
  135. [08:24:31] <KevinMarks> blockquote has a cite attribute for referring to the source
  136. [08:24:40] <patfm> KevinMarks: do you guys have stats on what tags people actually use?
  137. [08:25:01] <KevinMarks> hTML tags?
  138. [08:25:15] <KevinMarks> no, we mung the text out and index that
  139. [08:25:21] <patfm> maybe a blockquote + cite + language attributes would be a good place to start
  140. [08:25:28] <patfm> i see
  141. [08:25:49] <patfm> s/attributes/attributes combination/
  142. [08:26:21] <patfm> so having these conventional class names is part of microformats, right
  143. [08:26:51] <bunnywabbit_> http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2001/04/21/html-et-linguistique/
  144. [08:27:38] <KevinMarks> well a microformat principle is nto to invent stuff if HTML already has a way to say it
  145. [08:27:40] * patfm reaches for dictionary :)
  146. [08:27:42] <bunnywabbit_> <div id="post-slug-fr-abstract" lang="fr" rel="??">This is my french abstract.</div>
  147. [08:28:02] <KevinMarks> you can't use rel on a div
  148. [08:28:06] <KevinMarks> you cna use class though
  149. [08:28:07] <bunnywabbit_> aha
  150. [08:28:09] <bunnywabbit_> true
  151. [08:28:17] <KevinMarks> and class is multivalued
  152. [08:28:18] <bunnywabbit_> so where can you use rel?
  153. [08:28:24] <KevinMarks> on a link
  154. [08:28:25] <Frederic> in a link
  155. [08:28:29] <bunnywabbit_> dam
  156. [08:28:30] <bunnywabbit_> n
  157. [08:28:33] <bunnywabbit_> is that all?
  158. [08:28:56] <KevinMarks> rel defines the relationship fo the destination to the source
  159. [08:29:00] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: to define relationship you have to point on something, don't you?
  160. [08:29:08] <KevinMarks> you do
  161. [08:29:11] <patfm> so maybe like, (blockquote (cite (a) ) )
  162. [08:29:16] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: you also have ref
  163. [08:29:22] <KevinMarks> rev
  164. [08:29:29] <KevinMarks> for reverse relationship
  165. [08:29:29] <Frederic> rev
  166. [08:29:41] <Frederic> check Ryan's post about it on mf blog
  167. [08:29:48] <bunnywabbit_> so I could have <a href="#post-slug-fr-abstract" rel="abstract" hreflang="fr" title="Résumé en français.">Résumé français</a> at the end of my english post
  168. [08:29:51] <bunnywabbit_> but then
  169. [08:30:02] <bunnywabbit_> we wouldn't know what english content relates to that french abstract
  170. [08:30:09] <bunnywabbit_> see the problem?
  171. [08:30:11] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-faq
  172. [08:30:21] <bunnywabbit_> patfm: I do't like the blockquote
  173. [08:30:26] <bunnywabbit_> what are we quoting?
  174. [08:30:45] <bunnywabbit_> quoting is "I'm reproducing here something that has been printed elsewhere"
  175. [08:31:08] <KevinMarks> quoting and translating is a bit tricky, yes
  176. [08:31:42] <bunnywabbit_> if I stick my english content in an id-ed div, then could I set a relationship between source and abstract saying
  177. [08:31:52] <bunnywabbit_> here is the source of the abstract I'm pointing to?
  178. [08:31:58] <bunnywabbit_> let me read the faq
  179. [08:31:59] <patfm> yeah actually i don't really either... (blockquote|div|?? (cite (a hreflang=fr rel=abstract ) ) )
  180. [08:32:58] <bunnywabbit_> The rel values in HTML follow a consistent pattern which at a minimum *implies* a deliberate design. rel describes the relationship of a hyperlink in terms of what the destination (href) is, to the source, or from the source's perspective. <-- what is the source? the source PAGE? that's problematic on multi-post pages
  181. [08:33:47] <patfm> i think you could think of it as a post, any reason why not?
  182. [08:34:15] <bunnywabbit_> ah!
  183. [08:34:16] <bunnywabbit_> Are "rel" attributes, and linktypes in general, just document to document?
  184. [08:35:13] <KevinMarks> ish
  185. [08:35:19] <KevinMarks> there is soem hadnwaving
  186. [08:35:37] <KevinMarks> about partial documenst that we use to support them in posts
  187. [08:35:50] <bunnywabbit_> "Thus linktypes in general may be either from a whole document or part of a document to a whole document or a part of a document."
  188. [08:36:48] <patfm> and to be anal i could aska bout whether it counts for one part of a document to another part of the same document... but i won't. :)
  189. [08:37:23] * bunnywabbit_ feels out of her depth
  190. [08:38:41] <patfm> so the point of a microformat here is to establish some conventional markup for indicating where to find translation, right
  191. [08:39:02] <patfm> *a translation
  192. [08:39:07] <bunnywabbit_> or the other-language-version which is not necessarily a translation
  193. [08:39:21] <bunnywabbit_> remember our discussions some months back
  194. [08:39:35] <patfm> right... in that conversatoin that kevin had with tim oren they even mentioned linking ot machine translation, for instance
  195. [08:39:39] <bunnywabbit_> it's often more practical to "say something again in another language" rather than really translate it
  196. [08:39:44] <patfm> yeah
  197. [08:39:49] <bunnywabbit_> so machine translation is very different
  198. [08:40:05] <bunnywabbit_> machine translation concentrates on the surface of wordds
  199. [08:40:22] <bunnywabbit_> "saying again" concentrates on meaning and intention, sometimes very loosely
  200. [08:40:41] <patfm> i guess i tend to think in terms of closer translation since that's what we're working on in our project but i think you're right that many people translate loosely
  201. [08:40:41] <KevinMarks> alternate is vague enough
  202. [08:40:59] <bunnywabbit_> how would you define the relationship between my post and the "other language excerpt" here http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/22/requirements-for-a-multilingual-wordpress-plugin/ ?
  203. [08:41:06] <KevinMarks> we could add nuance by having more rels later
  204. [08:41:15] <bunnywabbit_> or here? http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/16/etre-madame-blogs/
  205. [08:41:16] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  206. [08:41:22] <bunnywabbit_> so rel="alternate"
  207. [08:41:26] <bunnywabbit_> but the thing is
  208. [08:41:34] <bunnywabbit_> I don't link to my abstracts
  209. [08:41:35] <KevinMarks> rel="abstract" hreflang="fr" ?
  210. [08:41:37] <bunnywabbit_> or from my abstracts
  211. [08:41:45] <KevinMarks> or
  212. [08:41:51] <bunnywabbit_> the link only makes sense if they're on a different page, right?
  213. [08:42:12] <bunnywabbit_> the html spec seems to say it should be rel=alternate lang="fr" but hreflang would make more sense
  214. [08:42:21] <bunnywabbit_> oh.... we can invent new rel terms, right?
  215. [08:42:46] * chryss (n=chris@82.98.3.22) has joined #microformats
  216. [08:42:48] <KevinMarks> <div lang="fr" class="abstract">Quelques r�flexions concernant un plugin multilingue pour WordPress.</div><div lang="en" class="entry">My blog has been bilingual for a long time now. [...]
  217. [08:42:50] <KevinMarks> maybe
  218. [08:43:18] <KevinMarks> we can to some extent; it requires a bit mroe justification than inventing classes
  219. [08:43:25] <bunnywabbit_> that means you impose class names?
  220. [08:43:37] <KevinMarks> I have invented some rel values
  221. [08:43:37] <bunnywabbit_> how about people who like writing their class names in their mother tongue? :-)
  222. [08:43:39] <patfm> or: : <div lang="fr" class="abstract">Quelques r?flexions concernant un plugin multilingue pour WordPress.</div><cite lang="en" class="entry">My blog has been bilingual for a long time now.</cite></div>
  223. [08:43:41] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  224. [08:43:54] <bunnywabbit_> euh
  225. [08:43:56] <bunnywabbit_> cite?!
  226. [08:43:56] <KevinMarks> better not to, but you cna have multiple class names
  227. [08:43:59] <bunnywabbit_> why on earth cite?
  228. [08:44:05] <patfm> heh, is cite evil?
  229. [08:44:09] <KevinMarks> but the point is to converge
  230. [08:44:10] <chryss> actually, those class names would be fine to impose in a blogging plugin, i think. they might well interface with the develompent of multilingual-ready themes
  231. [08:44:12] <bunnywabbit_> but what good does the class name do?
  232. [08:44:20] <bunnywabbit_> patfm: not evil, but it seems out of context here
  233. [08:44:34] <patfm> well there has to be a link in there somewhere doesn't there?
  234. [08:44:36] <bunnywabbit_> I mean... I wouldn't use cite here
  235. [08:44:38] <bunnywabbit_> yeah but
  236. [08:44:39] <bunnywabbit_> cite
  237. [08:44:42] <chryss> patfm, hum, i don't think cite is appropriate here
  238. [08:44:44] <bunnywabbit_> is for journal names, etc
  239. [08:44:47] <bunnywabbit_> people names
  240. [08:44:47] <KevinMarks> cite is wrong
  241. [08:44:49] <patfm> i'm just trying to think of a place to hang the lang tags
  242. [08:44:50] <bunnywabbit_> not for original text
  243. [08:44:51] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  244. [08:44:58] <bunnywabbit_> well you can hang the lang tags anywehre
  245. [08:45:01] <patfm> heh
  246. [08:45:08] <bunnywabbit_> but I agree with patfm we need to stick a url somewhere
  247. [08:45:13] <bunnywabbit_> couldn't the url go in the rel ?
  248. [08:45:23] <bunnywabbit_> ah no... rel can't go anywhere, just on links
  249. [08:45:29] <bunnywabbit_> how about a cite attribute?
  250. [08:45:35] <bunnywabbit_> can that only go on blockquote and q tags?
  251. [08:45:43] <patfm> i'm not hung up on cite, it just seems to me that cite is supposed to indicate an author
  252. [08:45:55] <patfm> is there a cite attribute?
  253. [08:46:10] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues#Entry_Summary_.28atom:summary.29
  254. [08:46:26] <KevinMarks> there is a cite attribute on blockquote which is a url iirc
  255. [08:46:36] <bunnywabbit_> yes
  256. [08:46:41] <bunnywabbit_> we'd need something like that
  257. [08:46:45] <bunnywabbit_> only not on blockquote
  258. [08:46:49] <bunnywabbit_> because we're not citing anything
  259. [08:46:51] <bunnywabbit_> ideally
  260. [08:47:00] <patfm> i confess that i find hAtom confusing
  261. [08:47:31] <bunnywabbit_> <div class="abstract" cite="http://mybloguri.com/#my-post">abstract</div> (not good, but this kind of idea)
  262. [08:48:09] <KevinMarks> biab
  263. [08:48:27] <patfm> what about the minimalist tack: the microformat "is" the way that you link to translated stuff, not necessarily how you mark up your actually translated content
  264. [08:50:09] <patfm> bunnywabbit_: shall we go back to finding a bunch of examples?
  265. [08:50:39] <patfm> we could start a delicious tag and then i couuld convert them to the wiki markup en masse
  266. [08:50:51] <bunnywabbit_> gosh, cute kittens: http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2648/379/1600/stinking%20kittens.0.jpg
  267. [08:51:07] <bunnywabbit_> ok
  268. [08:51:09] <patfm> "polyblog", maybe? heh, wait. that has... overtones. heh.
  269. [08:51:14] <bunnywabbit_> good
  270. [08:51:18] <bunnywabbit_> polyblog is nice
  271. [08:51:21] <patfm> freaky eyes :)
  272. [08:51:31] <bunnywabbit_> they have nice markup (the kittens)
  273. [08:51:33] <bunnywabbit_> er
  274. [08:51:35] <bunnywabbit_> markings ;-)
  275. [08:51:38] <patfm> haha
  276. [08:51:43] <patfm> tmblian slip ;)
  277. [08:52:00] <patfm> *timblian. o whatever heh
  278. [09:07:56] <Frederic> I wonder how reliable techcrunch news are
  279. [09:08:02] <kingryan|out> omg, kittens
  280. [09:08:37] <Frederic> I have a post saying that Amazon is topping the tag experience but it only appears in bloglines and shows me a 404 on the site
  281. [09:08:41] <kingryan|out> Frederic, techcrunch? why do you say that?
  282. [09:08:41] <Frederic> Hi kingryan|out
  283. [09:08:48] * kingryan|out is now known as kingryan
  284. [09:09:07] <kingryan> hi Frederic
  285. [09:09:23] <Frederic> Amazon Tags, which were announced on November 11, 2005, have been quietly removed from the site.
  286. [09:09:26] <Frederic> The example I used in my previous post clearly shows a tagging area at the bottom of the item description. A look at the same item on Amazon now shows that the feature has been removed. A new comment to that post alerted me to the change.
  287. [09:09:30] <Frederic> No word from Amazon on the reason for the removal.
  288. [09:09:34] <Frederic> That's what I read in bloglines
  289. [09:09:55] <Frederic> http://www.techcrunch.com/2006/01/21/amazon-ends-tags-experiment/
  290. [09:12:04] <kingryan> that url is a 404 for me
  291. [09:12:07] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  292. [09:12:08] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  293. [09:12:10] <patfm> amazon pages have become bewildering
  294. [09:12:45] <kingryan> yes, patfm
  295. [09:12:53] <Frederic> kingryan: that page is 404 for me too, but I have it in bloglines anyway
  296. [09:12:58] <kingryan> I only pay attention to 2 things on the whole page
  297. [09:13:18] <Frederic> The price?
  298. [09:13:26] <patfm> i imagine it would take 5 or 6 decimal places to specify the percentage of users who noticed the tag stuff :)
  299. [09:13:27] <kingryan> and "add to wishlist"
  300. [09:13:28] <kingryan> :D
  301. [09:14:02] <Frederic> yeah too
  302. [09:14:32] <Frederic> Been a long time since no one offered me something. They use my paypal link now. I think it's because my wishlist is in french
  303. [09:15:10] <kingryan> Fredric, I'll have to bug michael about the techcrunch ting
  304. [09:15:12] <kingryan> thing*
  305. [09:15:18] <kingryan> he's not online now, though
  306. [09:15:48] <kingryan> otherwise, I'd pester him now
  307. [09:17:32] <Frederic> OK
  308. [09:17:46] <Frederic> I don't know him, otherwise I would have done it myself
  309. [09:18:08] <Frederic> I wanted to relay the info in French, but I'll have to way I guess
  310. [09:20:28] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
  311. [09:22:14] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
  312. [09:23:32] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: well at least they do give you something
  313. [09:23:46] <bunnywabbit_> only person who got me something is KevinMarks ;-)
  314. [09:24:05] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: you've separated your two language blogs now, right?
  315. [09:26:33] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: actually I don't have the time and the motivation to translate my posts
  316. [09:26:42] <Frederic> But I need to restart
  317. [09:26:58] <kingryan> you could have mechanical turk to it
  318. [09:27:07] <Frederic> I don't even have a class to display English posts
  319. [09:27:09] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: which is why i don't translate mine
  320. [09:27:18] <bunnywabbit_> but you know that already ;-)
  321. [09:27:22] <bunnywabbit_> I just do excerpts
  322. [09:27:57] <Frederic> kingryan: I was more thinking about underpaid chinese guys living in my basement and coding stuffs for pizza
  323. [09:28:24] <kingryan> Frederic, I'm not sure that scales well
  324. [09:30:22] <Frederic> I wonder why my bloglines is one day in Japanese and the other day in Spanish while my settings say it must be in English
  325. [09:30:52] <bunnywabbit_> haha
  326. [09:32:23] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: people give me cash for the themes
  327. [09:32:32] <KevinMarks> back
  328. [09:32:34] <Frederic> which helps me to pay the server
  329. [09:34:26] <KevinMarks> we coudl do with some underpaid chines guys to explain what all those chiense blogs in the top 100 are about
  330. [09:36:31] * KevinMarks wonders if he shoudl still be up if he can misspell chinese twice differently in the same sentence
  331. [09:37:09] <bunnywabbit_> the ten commandments of bilingual blogging don't sound very nice to me
  332. [09:37:13] <bunnywabbit_> they start really badly
  333. [09:37:16] <bunnywabbit_> "Language change. There should be a button, link, or pulldown menu to click or select, present in every page. That's the way to turn from reading content in one language to the other in a bilingual blog. Mixtures of languages in individual pages, no, that's not OK. Langauge change behaviour could vary: the distinction between symmetrical and asymmetrical blogs that I describe here is a key issue."
  334. [09:37:27] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: that's good
  335. [09:37:36] <bunnywabbit_> KevinMarks: what time is it?
  336. [09:38:24] <bunnywabbit_> this guy (the one who wrote the 10 commandments) thinks he has monolingual readers.
  337. [09:42:22] <KevinMarks> 1.40am
  338. [09:42:37] <Frederic> bunnywabbit_: I was once thinking about using a javascript and some display none css to show / hide the English part
  339. [09:45:08] <KevinMarks> so, examples shoudl be extended to show what amrkup is currently used to indicate languages
  340. [09:46:12] <bunnywabbit_> Frederic: problem with that is search engines
  341. [09:46:19] <bunnywabbit_> and bandwidth can be an issue
  342. [09:46:23] <bunnywabbit_> how about ajaxifying it?
  343. [09:46:31] <KevinMarks> simpler than that
  344. [09:46:46] <KevinMarks> can't you do a css selector on lang ?
  345. [09:46:47] <bunnywabbit_> ahahifying
  346. [09:46:50] <bunnywabbit_> you can
  347. [09:46:55] <bunnywabbit_> I'm already doing it
  348. [09:47:10] <bunnywabbit_> daniel put the code for it on his blog (with js) in 2002
  349. [09:47:13] <KevinMarks> so you could show/hide the other lang
  350. [09:47:16] <bunnywabbit_> to show-hide
  351. [09:47:17] <bunnywabbit_> yep
  352. [09:47:21] <KevinMarks> good, precedents!
  353. [09:47:22] <bunnywabbit_> that's what Frederic is thinking about
  354. [09:47:33] <bunnywabbit_> so Frederic: you'll find the code on daniel glazman's blog
  355. [09:47:42] <bunnywabbit_> (if you need it)
  356. [09:47:44] <KevinMarks> so let me refactor this problem statement
  357. [09:47:58] <bunnywabbit_> I had it briefly on CTTS but gave up because of lack of browser support at the time
  358. [09:48:08] <kingryan> you can't select on language in IE
  359. [09:48:24] <bunnywabbit_> well, ffox is more present than it was 4 years ago
  360. [09:48:24] <KevinMarks> 1) indicating language of sub-sections (use lang="xx") - enables CSS-fu and parsing
  361. [09:48:33] <bunnywabbit_> yes
  362. [09:48:44] * bunnywabbit_ is now known as bunny_RSI
  363. [09:48:47] <bunny_RSI> *ouch* :-(
  364. [09:49:25] <KevinMarks> 2) indicating alternative versions in other languages (use rel="alternate" hreflang="xx")
  365. [09:49:33] <bunny_RSI> yes
  366. [09:49:40] <chryss> KevinMarks, ok, i'll set a precedent ... but not sure if i finish my redesign today
  367. [09:50:09] <bunny_RSI> I updated my blog post: http://climbtothestars.org/archives/2006/01/22/requirements-for-a-multilingual-wordpress-plugin/
  368. [09:50:10] <KevinMarks> 3) indicating the various kinds of alternatives - translation, abstract, original
  369. [09:50:20] <bunny_RSI> or... reformulation ?
  370. [09:50:26] <bunny_RSI> how do you say that in english?
  371. [09:50:36] <chryss> KevinMarks, what's "translation"? "translator"?
  372. [09:50:38] <KevinMarks> 3 is the one where we need to work out the significance
  373. [09:50:41] <chryss> and all these optional...
  374. [09:50:58] <bunny_RSI> translation, abstract, original and reformulation seems to cover it
  375. [09:51:07] <bunny_RSI> if reformulation is english
  376. [09:51:11] <chryss> "reformulations"... don't like it
  377. [09:51:39] <KevinMarks> I'm thinking rel="alternate original" lang="fr" for my link to a post of yours I translated
  378. [09:51:43] <KevinMarks> paraphrase?
  379. [09:52:02] <chryss> yes, but bear in mind that in many cases there won't be an "original" and a "translated version"
  380. [09:52:17] <KevinMarks> well, in that case alternate alone is OK
  381. [09:52:26] <chryss> otoh, that case is important, too.
  382. [09:52:38] <chryss> my "that case" is your case
  383. [09:52:39] <chryss> :)
  384. [09:52:44] <chryss> not mine
  385. [09:53:21] <KevinMarks> the case that patfm and Tim Oren were interested in was an attempted faithful translation of another post (whetehr by the same author or not)
  386. [09:54:13] <KevinMarks> chryss, if you write 2 versions yourself on the same topic in different languages, is 'alternate' OK or not?
  387. [09:54:16] <chryss> yes, ... what i said meant to convey that this _is_ a very important case
  388. [09:54:21] <chryss> yes
  389. [09:54:22] <KevinMarks> I agree
  390. [09:54:37] <chryss> it's what i use, and it think it's fine to keep it so loose
  391. [09:55:09] <KevinMarks> I think "alternate" is the broad case; the question is if we can add useful meaning by coming up wiht some more specific ones where they apply
  392. [09:55:16] <chryss> ACTION is currently listening to
  393. [09:55:19] <chryss> hm
  394. [09:55:23] <KevinMarks> which does mean looking for examples
  395. [09:55:56] <chryss> look at the current state of my markup http://serendipity.lascribe.net/
  396. [09:56:03] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  397. [09:56:03] <chryss> a better version is being worked on
  398. [09:56:12] <chryss> what does wikipedia do?
  399. [09:56:17] * chryss goes looking
  400. [09:56:17] <KevinMarks> eg all formal EU documents are supposed to be equivalently translated in many languages
  401. [09:56:26] <KevinMarks> wikipedia forks
  402. [09:56:35] <chryss> ah, you mean that
  403. [09:56:41] <KevinMarks> compare the English and French articles on Napoleon
  404. [09:56:43] <chryss> canada
  405. [09:56:52] <chryss> yes, but wrt markup i mean
  406. [09:57:22] <chryss> but that _is_ a relevant example: there are cases of faithful translations, and other with big multilingual reference sites
  407. [09:58:00] <KevinMarks> right
  408. [09:58:19] <bunny_RSI> paraphrase is good
  409. [09:58:24] <KevinMarks> your use of lang looks good
  410. [09:58:45] * KevinMarks massages bunny's wrists
  411. [09:58:50] <chryss> paraphrase is pretty restrictive, though
  412. [09:58:53] <chryss> <li class="interwiki-ar"><a href="http://ar.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D8%A3%D9%88%D9%84%D9%88%D9%85%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B3">العربية</a></li>
  413. [09:58:53] <chryss> <li class="interwiki-bg"><a href="http://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%83%D1%86">Български</a></li>
  414. [09:58:53] <chryss> <li class="interwiki-cs"><a href="http://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc">Česky</a></li>
  415. [09:58:53] <chryss> <li class="interwiki-en"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomouc">English</a></li>
  416. [09:58:58] <chryss> wikipedia does... nothing
  417. [09:59:09] <chryss> except the classes
  418. [09:59:18] <bunny_RSI> rel="alternate original" rev="paraphrase" hreflang="fr" for me saying in other words in english what was said elsewhere in french
  419. [09:59:21] <KevinMarks> so, room for improvement there
  420. [09:59:39] <KevinMarks> yes
  421. [10:00:05] <KevinMarks> we shoudl drag _sj_ into this, he's the wikipedia polyglot guru
  422. [10:00:30] <bunny_RSI> oh right
  423. [10:00:37] <bunny_RSI> where is he?
  424. [10:00:47] <bunny_RSI> is he up?
  425. [10:00:49] <KevinMarks> I think he's east coast US so likely asleep
  426. [10:00:53] <bunny_RSI> damn.
  427. [10:03:06] <chryss> ok, the canadian covernment uses "lang" but no "alternate... attention, slight flood
  428. [10:03:09] <chryss> <td valign="bottom" width="150"><table width="150" summary="Our tables are used for the page layout. Nos tables sont utilis&eacute;es pour la mise en page." border="0" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="0">
  429. [10:03:10] <chryss> <tr>
  430. [10:03:10] <chryss> <td width="75" align="center"><a title="English" href="/main_e.html"><img src="/images/englishbt.gif" alt="English" height="27" border="0" width="91"></a></td>
  431. [10:03:10] <chryss> <td></td>
  432. [10:03:10] <chryss> <td width="75" align="center"><a title="Fran&ccedil;ais" href="/main_f.html" lang="fr"><img src="/images/francaisbt.gif" alt="Fran&ccedil;ais" height="27" border="0" width="91"></a></td>
  433. [10:03:13] <chryss> </tr>
  434. [10:03:20] <chryss> i left the first bit in for your amusement
  435. [10:03:58] <chryss> there's a "lang=en" at the top of the page, so only "lang=fr" is indicated. "hreflang" would be a good idea, too....
  436. [10:04:20] <bunny_RSI> ew
  437. [10:04:21] <bunny_RSI> haha
  438. [10:04:22] <KevinMarks> chryss, can you put these markup fragments in http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples
  439. [10:04:31] <chryss> ok KevinMarks
  440. [10:05:18] <chryss> uh, do you mind if i add my "better" multilingual blog? dangereusetrilingue is a hack job, no attributes or hardly
  441. [10:05:26] <KevinMarks> this kind fo thing is really helpful in convincing people that it is worthwhile
  442. [10:05:40] <KevinMarks> of course - best practices are encouraged
  443. [10:06:43] <KevinMarks> the closest I get to multilingual blogging is http://epeus.blogspot.com/2003_04_01_epeus_archive.html#200186448
  444. [10:06:53] <chryss> uh, what kind of "valid username" does microformats.org want?
  445. [10:07:04] <KevinMarks> WikiFriendly
  446. [10:07:11] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4297 * StephanieBooth * (+677)
  447. [10:07:17] <bunny_RSI> just added a sample from my site
  448. [10:07:21] <chryss> You have not specified a valid user name.
  449. [10:07:47] <bunny_RSI> ouch
  450. [10:08:02] <bunny_RSI> how do I insert code, KevinMarks ?
  451. [10:08:12] <KevinMarks> er, let me check
  452. [10:08:17] <chryss> maybe i need someone to sign me up? or should i do it anonymously?
  453. [10:08:42] <bunny_RSI> they say start with a space
  454. [10:08:50] <bunny_RSI> chryss: no no you can sign up yourself
  455. [10:09:06] <chryss> with a _space_?
  456. [10:09:48] <chryss> ah, ok, it's fine with ChrisFW
  457. [10:10:23] <KevinMarks> put <pre><nowiki> </nowiki></pre>
  458. [10:10:23] <KevinMarks> around it bunny
  459. [10:11:09] <KevinMarks> there are otehr ways but that is simplest
  460. [10:12:27] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4298 * StephanieBooth * (+11) Code Samples -
  461. [10:12:27] <bunny_RSI> ah
  462. [10:12:29] <bunny_RSI> got it
  463. [10:13:25] <bunny_RSI> KevinMarks: still refactoring the problem statement?
  464. [10:13:30] <KevinMarks> if you use <pre> adding extra newlines is good
  465. [10:14:12] <KevinMarks> let me remap what I said here into the wiki
  466. [10:14:58] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4299 * StephanieBooth * (+33) Code Samples -
  467. [10:17:09] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4300 * Kevin Marks * (+134) Managing multilingual blogs and sites -
  468. [10:23:40] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4301 * ChrisFW * (+585)
  469. [10:23:53] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  470. [10:23:53] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  471. [10:25:16] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4302 * ChrisFW * (+10) From http://serendipity.lascribe.net/ -
  472. [10:29:17] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4303 * Kevin Marks * (+916) refactor order; add summary of approaches
  473. [10:29:26] <KevinMarks> how's that bunny?
  474. [10:29:48] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4304 * ChrisFW * (+684)
  475. [10:30:04] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has left #microformats
  476. [10:31:35] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  477. [10:33:45] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4305 * ChrisFW * (+1522)
  478. [10:36:13] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
  479. [10:36:30] <patfm> hi
  480. [10:36:41] <bunny_RSI> I'm in the newspapeer again
  481. [10:36:47] <bunny_RSI> just learnt it from somebody else
  482. [10:37:50] <bunny_RSI> http://www.lematin.ch/nwmatinhome/nwmatinheadactu/actu_suisse/les_romands_s_y_mettent.html
  483. [10:39:44] <KevinMarks> they slipped up with that photo instead of using your ones
  484. [10:40:04] <bunny_RSI> which ones?
  485. [10:40:09] <bunny_RSI> it's one of the flickr ones
  486. [10:40:17] <bunny_RSI> but they obviously needed one that looked wintery
  487. [10:40:25] <bunny_RSI> oh wait
  488. [10:40:28] <bunny_RSI> you can't see the photo online
  489. [10:40:28] <KevinMarks> I see a bloke
  490. [10:40:34] <bunny_RSI> yeah, that's Laurent
  491. [10:40:37] <KevinMarks> laurent Haug
  492. [10:40:41] <bunny_RSI> (Haug, not Brunetti)
  493. [10:40:44] <bunny_RSI> friend of mine
  494. [10:40:51] <bunny_RSI> and organiser of lift06.org
  495. [10:41:05] <bunny_RSI> it's a one-page article
  496. [10:41:12] <bunny_RSI> with the blogs down the right and left
  497. [10:41:15] <bunny_RSI> and a phtoo for each blog
  498. [10:41:24] <KevinMarks> aha
  499. [10:41:41] <KevinMarks> so in the real paper peopel will look at you first
  500. [10:41:51] <bunny_RSI> oh weird
  501. [10:41:54] <bunny_RSI> it's not on flickr
  502. [10:42:04] <bunny_RSI> no, he's 3 times as big as me
  503. [10:42:28] <patfm> i found a couple more formats to think about:
  504. [10:42:30] <patfm> http://web.archive.org/web/20050206173408/http://jej.notatnik.net/
  505. [10:42:38] <patfm> (formats in a loose sense)
  506. [10:43:01] <patfm> http://merdeinfrance.blogspot.com/ (rather unpleasant tone, this one)
  507. [10:43:13] <bunny_RSI> it is
  508. [10:43:17] <bunny_RSI> yucky site
  509. [10:43:22] <bunny_RSI> patfm: I thought you werew sleeping
  510. [10:43:36] <patfm> anyway, they're interesting examples -- the first one is essentially two unrelated blogs on a single page, the second is actually one-to-one
  511. [10:43:50] <patfm> made coffee O.o
  512. [10:44:00] <bunny_RSI> emmanuelle.net
  513. [10:44:02] * chryss is out of milk
  514. [10:44:07] <bunny_RSI> paragraph by paragraph translation
  515. [10:44:14] <chryss> should take that as a sign :) ... rooi bush tea for me
  516. [10:44:25] <patfm> hmm interesting
  517. [10:44:29] <KevinMarks> add them in to http://microformats.org/wiki/multilingual-examples
  518. [10:44:35] <patfm> wow, even within a single post
  519. [10:44:54] <bunny_RSI> painful to read
  520. [10:44:57] <bunny_RSI> for bilingual people
  521. [10:45:03] <bunny_RSI> because I tend to read both languages at a time
  522. [10:45:04] <patfm> yep, i'm making a list
  523. [10:45:09] <bunny_RSI> and get everything twice
  524. [10:45:09] <bunny_RSI> annoying
  525. [10:45:14] <patfm> tyhat format is kind of illogical imho
  526. [10:47:18] <KevinMarks> well, thats where a lang="xx" on the blocks and a js/CSS show/hide would work well
  527. [10:48:36] * felipe (n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se) has joined #microformats
  528. [10:49:01] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4306 * ChrisFW * (+181) Examples of multilingual blogs -
  529. [10:49:12] <chryss> added http://www.nakedtranslations.com/
  530. [10:49:24] <chryss> i think these are two separate MT blogs
  531. [10:50:59] <patfm> http://www.margaret-marks.com/Transblawg/ multilingual, but not translation (despite the fact that it's by a translator!) (good blog, too)
  532. [10:51:23] <chryss> yes, i thought of adding margaret...
  533. [10:51:33] <chryss> but she rarely does text in german
  534. [10:52:16] <patfm> interesting how she does the titles-- "Interpreting error / Fehler beim Dolmetschen"
  535. [10:52:19] <patfm> same tag.
  536. [10:52:28] <patfm> er, element.
  537. [10:52:34] <patfm> er, .... you know what i mean.
  538. [10:53:19] <patfm> she just freely mixes, no markup distinction at all
  539. [10:53:43] <chryss> same at céline's blog (naked translations)
  540. [10:54:01] <chryss> no attributes whatsoever that encode language metadata
  541. [10:54:27] <patfm> right, and they're pretty tech-savvy
  542. [10:55:10] <patfm> well, i haven't read céline's blog but margaret marks talks about xml on occasion, etc
  543. [10:55:33] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  544. [10:58:01] <bunny_RSI> 91-year-old blogger: http://serendip.epfl.ch/Chevilly1/
  545. [10:58:31] <KevinMarks> bunnym that paper has 5 blokes and you
  546. [10:58:39] <KevinMarks> I'm betting on your picture
  547. [10:58:43] <bunny_RSI> 7 blokes and me
  548. [10:58:45] <patfm> wow, and an impressive list of categories for a 91-year-old
  549. [10:58:58] <bunny_RSI> and I'm titled "the woman"
  550. [10:59:05] <bunny_RSI> they needed one
  551. [10:59:17] <bunny_RSI> phd in arts
  552. [11:00:19] <patfm> wow, when you start digging into the options for multilingual blogging, there are tons
  553. [11:01:40] <chryss> here's one i'll add http://www.metameat.net/kafka/index.php kafka's diaries
  554. [11:01:50] <chryss> oh, yes... i'm mainly filing through my own brain for memories of interesting sites
  555. [11:03:09] <KevinMarks> excellent - this is just what we need - mroe exampels of approaches
  556. [11:03:22] <KevinMarks> "the woman" is ratehr unsubtle
  557. [11:04:22] * chryss is throwing a bunch of frozen beans, peas and mushrooms in a frying pan... HUNGER
  558. [11:04:25] <chryss> i'm unsubtle?
  559. [11:05:22] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4307 * ChrisFW * (+72) Examples of multilingual blogs -
  560. [11:05:38] <KevinMarks> no, the subeditor at the swiss newspaper is
  561. [11:06:10] <chryss> oh
  562. [11:07:47] <patfm> heh, one guy labels his english/french blog "Lang(u)age"
  563. [11:07:54] <KevinMarks> la femme token
  564. [11:07:58] <patfm> try marking up that word heh
  565. [11:08:36] <KevinMarks> whats the iso code for franglais?
  566. [11:09:14] <chryss> fr_GB
  567. [11:09:25] <chryss> oh, and technologies du langage of course
  568. [11:11:24] * conann (n=conann@host81-129-70-243.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  569. [11:11:36] <patfm> http://frenchfragfactory.net/ozh/index.php is interesting, it has js to toggle en/fr, but only if there is a post in that language, so if you're set to en you might see en(fr), en, fr, en(fr)
  570. [11:11:43] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4308 * ChrisFW * (+129) Examples of multilingual blogs -
  571. [11:12:02] <KevinMarks> I should write up the chat I had with wk and om at lunch marked up with lang="en-uk" and "en-za" and "en-us"
  572. [11:12:10] <patfm> chryss: you mean fr_US :)
  573. [11:13:19] <chryss> demends
  574. [11:13:21] <chryss> er
  575. [11:13:22] <chryss> pends
  576. [11:14:01] <KevinMarks> franglais is a UK think mostly
  577. [11:14:31] <KevinMarks> we should add a 'for goodness sake don't use flags' clause somewhere
  578. [11:17:08] <KevinMarks> http://www.fva.org/vnflag/vc-flag.htm
  579. [11:19:24] <chryss> patfm has a good post on that
  580. [11:22:06] <patfm> argh site's down again
  581. [11:22:09] <patfm> i cry
  582. [11:26:43] <chryss> patfm, i can access it
  583. [11:26:50] <bunny_RSI> yes, KevinMarks
  584. [11:26:52] <bunny_RSI> very true
  585. [11:27:17] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  586. [11:27:37] <patfm> o.. hmm
  587. [11:37:25] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4309 * Patfm * (+1078) first stab at some labels (hello irc channel.)
  588. [11:40:07] <patfm> so if someone asks "what's the benefit of making the effort to add markup to my translated content?", what's the reply
  589. [11:40:31] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4310 * ChrisFW * (+63) markup cleanup ... hi pat
  590. [11:41:02] <patfm> heh, thanks chryss
  591. [11:41:10] <chryss> uh, patfm that's still a bit unfinished there...
  592. [11:41:11] <patfm> i left it a bit of a disaster didn't i
  593. [11:41:21] <chryss> and put in link text. i just did that for mine
  594. [11:41:41] <patfm> but my clever disaster resulted in you fixing my crummy markup. hehe
  595. [11:42:03] <chryss> sorry, your categorisation is more like tags
  596. [11:42:08] <chryss> no, i didn't fix all of it yet
  597. [11:42:13] <chryss> i don't understand your titles
  598. [11:42:20] <patfm> i'm just trying to describe the layout
  599. [11:42:58] <chryss> look those blogs are sometimes in several categories...
  600. [11:43:01] <patfm> maybe we shouuldh ave short text descriptions for different styles
  601. [11:43:17] <chryss> like "language choice passed through urls" ... that's the case of mine, but also naked translations, where it's two separate blogs
  602. [11:44:10] <patfm> yeah
  603. [11:44:24] <chryss> i'll give it a onceover
  604. [11:45:17] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4311 * Patfm * (+77) Side-by-side (not translated) -
  605. [11:45:40] <patfm> argh, i didn't mean to save that. jeeze, this bot makes me self conscious
  606. [11:46:38] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4312 * Patfm * (-610) One language per post - move this bit.
  607. [11:51:33] <chryss> patfm, i'm refactoring this totally
  608. [11:52:24] <chryss> patfm, i don't understand jej ... is this a polish blog with an english sidebar?
  609. [11:54:24] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4313 * Patfm * (+618) Completely separate blogs -
  610. [11:54:46] <patfm> chryss: yeah, that's a good way to describe it
  611. [11:54:57] <patfm> i was just trying to point out that the posts have no relation to each other
  612. [11:55:12] <chryss> well, that's true for loads of other blogs we've listed in other categories
  613. [11:55:43] <chryss> "separate blogs" means, for us, "separate installs of blogging tools"
  614. [11:55:44] <patfm> in a single view?
  615. [11:56:04] <patfm> i guess we're parsing them in different ways
  616. [11:56:18] <chryss> you're coming from the user experience, mostly, but we had been looking at how it was achieved tool wise
  617. [11:56:19] <patfm> maybe it wasn't worth my adding the categories
  618. [11:56:19] <chryss> yeah
  619. [11:56:29] <chryss> give me 10 min
  620. [11:56:31] <patfm> right
  621. [11:56:48] <patfm> perhaps we should have separate pages
  622. [11:56:52] <patfm> ah ok
  623. [12:01:08] <patfm> what if you don't know which blogging tools were used?
  624. [12:03:54] <patfm> interesting that there are no hreflang attributes on the wikipedia interwiki links
  625. [12:10:27] <chryss> most of the time you can tell from the source code. others are handcrafted
  626. [12:11:14] <patfm> brb, gotta reboot my modem
  627. [12:11:19] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
  628. [12:13:56] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4314 * ChrisFW * (-442) reorganized listing
  629. [12:19:04] * bunny_RSI is now known as bunny_wants_CSS
  630. [12:22:40] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
  631. [12:22:40] <jibot> patfm is a ?forgetme fiend and http://blogamundo.net/dev and will eventually be destroyed by character encodings and oftentimes clueless
  632. [12:23:02] <patfm> oh, much better
  633. [12:23:24] <bunny_wants_CSS> wb patfm
  634. [12:23:36] <bunny_wants_CSS> has KevinMarks gone to bed?
  635. [12:24:43] <chryss> patfm, have a look
  636. [12:24:49] <chryss> bunny_wants_CSS, i imagine
  637. [12:25:00] <chryss> he's probably killed over and died
  638. [12:25:38] <bunny_wants_CSS> keeled over
  639. [12:25:46] <bunny_wants_CSS> eggcorn?
  640. [12:28:48] <chryss> yess
  641. [12:29:54] * patf1 (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has joined #microformats
  642. [12:30:20] <chryss> hm, the author of the polyglot plugin has a trilingual blog, but i can't see them using it :)
  643. [12:31:04] <patf1> heh
  644. [12:31:08] <patf1> where is it?
  645. [12:33:03] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4315 * ChrisFW * (+109) One language per post, language varies -
  646. [12:33:04] <chryss> just added it http://fredfred.net/skriker/
  647. [12:41:09] * patfm (n=pat@69.251.250.77) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  648. [12:41:47] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  649. [12:41:47] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  650. [12:43:22] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.112.64.123.bbplus.ptn-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  651. [12:44:55] <bunny_wants_CSS> chryss: that's a bad sign... if a plugin developer doesn't use his plugin
  652. [12:45:47] * danja (i=DannyAye@host101-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  653. [13:02:21] * bunny_wants_CSS is now known as bunnywabbit_
  654. [13:28:16] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4316 * Patfm * (+113) One language per post, language varies - add Polinesia
  655. [13:29:11] <mfbot> [[multilingual-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-examples&diff=0&oldid=4317 * Patfm * (+11) One language per post, language varies - oops, it's trilingual
  656. [13:31:47] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4318 * Patfm * (+93) Previous discussions - another discussion in French
  657. [13:34:40] * patf1 (n=pat@69.251.250.77) has left #microformats
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  659. [15:16:26] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  660. [15:16:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00).
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  666. [16:47:16] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  668. [17:30:00] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  669. [17:30:00] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  670. [17:45:14] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78242134.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  671. [17:48:06] * noocx (n=noocx@caracas-0253.adsl.interware.hu) has joined #microformats
  672. [17:48:15] <noocx> hi
  673. [17:52:54] * noocx (n=noocx@caracas-0253.adsl.interware.hu) Quit (Client Quit)
  674. [18:00:37] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  675. [18:00:37] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  676. [19:09:41] * chryss is now known as chrys_resting
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  679. [19:58:46] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  680. [20:21:19] <mfbot> [[s5-tools]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4319 * Downes * (+1170) Added list of S5 editors
  681. [20:21:40] <mfbot> [[s5-tools]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4320 * Downes * (-2)
  682. [20:24:50] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  683. [20:24:50] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  684. [21:02:53] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) Quit ()
  685. [21:11:32] <mfbot> [[s5-tools]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=s5-tools&diff=0&oldid=4321 * RyanKing * (+230) cleanup up formatting, adding some explanatory text
  686. [21:16:13] * conann (n=conann@host81-129-70-243.range81-129.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  687. [21:24:03] * bunny (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-76-39.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
  688. [21:36:39] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4322 * Tim White * (-1525) Types and Roles -
  689. [21:36:45] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4323 * Tim White * (+1476)
  690. [21:38:41] <mfbot> [[cite-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4324 * Tim White * (+12) Contributors -
  691. [21:39:27] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4325 * Tim White * (+25) Types and Roles -
  692. [21:44:28] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4326 * Brian * (-5) Comparison chart -
  693. [21:45:01] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  694. [21:52:34] <mfbot> [[cite-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=cite-formats&diff=0&oldid=4327 * Brian * (-15) Comparison chart -
  695. [21:53:56] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4328 * EranGloben * (+39)
  696. [21:57:37] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/distributed-conversation-examples * EranGloben * (+1915) created basic page for distributed conversation examples.
  697. [22:00:18] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4329 * EranGloben * (-61)
  698. [22:01:19] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4330 * EranGloben * (+104)
  699. [22:12:21] <factoryjoe> http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/89880590/
  700. [22:13:55] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4331 * EranGloben * (+1035) added details and discussion of TDL
  701. [22:15:41] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4332 * EranGloben * (+43) Examples -
  702. [22:23:27] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4333 * EranGloben * (+466) Examples of Use -
  703. [22:23:38] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4334 * EranGloben * (+2) Authors -
  704. [22:23:59] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4335 * EranGloben * (+1)
  705. [23:00:48] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  706. [23:30:13] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  707. [23:37:44] <factoryjoe> http://www.torresburriel.com/weblog/?p=859
  708. [23:40:40] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  709. [23:41:01] <Enric> ?def Enric
  710. [23:41:01] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  711. [23:51:46] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) has joined #microformats
  712. [23:55:23] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4336 * DannyAyers * (+316) ref to IBIS
  713. [23:56:58] * danja (i=DannyAye@host101-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")
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  715. [23:59:50] * drumm has a question about XMDP

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