IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-01-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:11:54] * dustym_ (n=dustym@office.cavoksolutions.com) Quit ()
  2. [00:15:39] <factoryjoe> huh, memoryminer should use hcard and hcalendar: http://www.memoryminer.com/software/video.html
  3. [00:16:05] * therealdam is now known as therealadam
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  5. [00:25:15] * kingryan|away is now known as kingryan
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  9. [00:46:03] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com
  10. [00:47:43] * limbo_ is now known as limbo_gone
  11. [00:48:52] <bkdelong> Is it me or is this channel getting bigger?
  12. [00:54:14] * bkdelong_ (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  13. [00:56:34] <kingryan> bkdelong, yeah, we have scope creep
  14. [00:56:53] <bkdelong_> hehe. scope creep? In what way?
  15. [00:58:55] <kingryan> people in more areas are getting interested, we're having more diverse discussions
  16. [00:58:59] <kingryan> anyway, gotta run
  17. [00:59:19] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  18. [01:02:40] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
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  24. [01:40:40] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  25. [01:55:31] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@A17-207-14-244.apple.com) has joined #microformats
  26. [02:12:42] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4394 * Brian * (+12) Exploratory discussions -
  27. [02:17:08] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=4395 * Brian * (+263) Modularity -
  28. [02:18:14] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4396 * Brian * (+12) See also -
  29. [02:18:45] <mfbot> [[citation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4397 * Brian * (+15) Cite Examples -
  30. [02:19:01] <mfbot> [[citation-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-formats&diff=0&oldid=4398 * Brian * (+12) Citation Formats -
  31. [02:19:27] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=4399 * Brian * (+4) Known Citation Formats -
  32. [02:20:18] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=4400 * Brian * (+4) Example Citations -
  33. [02:20:34] <mfbot> [[citation]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation&diff=0&oldid=4401 * Brian * (+4) Citation Brainstorming Ideas -
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  39. [03:15:36] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
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  43. [03:49:46] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
  44. [04:23:31] * karlUshi (n=karl@tea06.w3.mag.keio.ac.jp) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  45. [04:28:58] * Enric (n=chatzill@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  46. [04:30:29] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  47. [04:30:29] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  48. [04:30:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  49. [04:37:47] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  50. [04:37:47] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  51. [04:51:25] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-66-134-200-194.snvacaid.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  52. [04:51:25] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  53. [04:57:25] * amanuel_ (n=amanuel@d150-138-173.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  54. [04:57:25] <jibot> amanuel_ is running The Intentional Web Initiative http://intentionalweb.org
  55. [05:08:11] * Snowden (n=some@c-67-171-198-120.hsd1.or.comcast.net) Quit ()
  56. [05:22:23] * karlUshi (n=karl@133.27.228.236) has joined #microformats
  57. [05:22:23] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  65. [05:52:56] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  66. [05:53:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  70. [07:05:41] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  71. [07:05:43] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  72. [07:08:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  73. [07:08:27] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  74. [07:08:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  77. [07:38:48] * tara (n=tara@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  78. [07:38:48] <jibot> tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
  79. [07:41:27] <KevinMarks> evening tara
  80. [07:41:42] <tara> kevinmarks: evening!
  81. [07:41:48] * limbo_gone is now known as limbo_
  82. [07:44:00] * tara (n=tara@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  84. [07:48:13] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  85. [07:48:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  86. [07:49:29] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-66-134-200-194.snvacaid.covad.net) Quit ()
  87. [07:51:44] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-tag-faq * Singpolyma * (+257) URL format question
  88. [07:58:11] * cgriego (n=cgriego@c-67-166-246-170.hsd1.tx.comcast.net) has joined #Microformats
  89. [07:58:11] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00).
  90. [07:59:38] * cgriego is now known as cgriego|home
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  92. [08:24:26] * limbo_ is now known as limbo_goned
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  94. [09:08:59] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  95. [09:08:59] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  96. [09:23:14] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  97. [09:25:50] * bergie (n=bergie@proton.idasact.org.za) has joined #microformats
  98. [09:25:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  99. [09:45:54] <trovster> What head profile do I need for microformats.
  100. [09:53:28] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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  106. [11:55:01] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=4402 * Sbonzix * (+95) Examples in the wild -
  107. [11:56:57] * jibot (i=jibot@rdns.97.161.62.64.fre.communitycolo.net) Quit ("Planned Shutdown")
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  116. [12:24:58] <mfbot> [[multilingual-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=multilingual-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4403 * Patfm * (-35) Previous discussions - luistxo's site is up again
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  124. [13:53:05] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
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  134. [15:48:25] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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  140. [16:26:55] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  141. [16:36:24] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  142. [16:36:24] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  143. [16:36:34] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  152. [17:08:45] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  153. [17:10:52] <bewest|work> neat. google mentions microformats at http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html
  154. [17:11:09] <bkdelong_> oooh
  155. [17:11:31] <bkdelong_> Hopefully Chris et al will start indexing them all.
  156. [17:15:36] <bkdelong_> indexing them contextually, that is
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  159. [17:34:21] <jibot> zacker is working at CivicSpace Labs : www.civicspacelabs.org
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  162. [17:45:50] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  171. [18:20:24] <tantek> bewest - very interesting about those Google studies
  172. [18:22:10] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  173. [18:22:10] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  174. [18:22:29] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@pcp01381199pcs.levtwn01.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  178. [18:31:55] * limbo_goned is now known as limbo_
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  183. [18:46:28] <tantek> kingryan, did you see the Google study of markup?
  184. [18:46:44] <kingryan> just saw it, haven't had a chance to read it yet
  185. [18:48:00] <_fil_> can you share the document (url)?
  186. [18:48:55] <kingryan> http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html
  187. [18:50:54] <pnhChris> its interesting, but i haven't had time to digest it yet either
  188. [18:51:37] <kingryan> holy shit, they link to us
  189. [18:52:19] <pnhChris> i saw XFN mentioned when i was poking around befre
  190. [18:52:26] <tantek> right
  191. [18:53:24] <kingryan> tantek, do you know who's behind this?
  192. [18:53:45] <limbo_> "persuit of bite-sized reusable semantics"
  193. [18:53:49] <limbo_> good one
  194. [18:54:20] <tantek> i don't know, but judging from the writing and topics, i'd say there is a good chance that Hixie was involved (let's see if that wakes him up)
  195. [18:54:26] <kingryan> yeah, seems like they get it, limbo_
  196. [18:54:54] <kingryan> yeah, this stuff could be useful for Hixie's whatwg work
  197. [18:55:38] <tantek> the linkrels page links to my blog post on rel="bookmark"! http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/linkrels.html
  198. [18:56:00] <kingryan> talk about some pagerank boosting!
  199. [18:56:25] * tantek resists temptation to *ping* that linkrels.html page.
  200. [18:56:41] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  201. [18:56:41] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
  202. [18:56:58] <kingryan> only 23 referals from it so far
  203. [18:57:10] <tantek> According to http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/pageheaders.html XFN is "the most popular HTML metadata profile"!
  204. [18:57:12] <factoryjoe> ...from what?
  205. [18:57:37] <kingryan> http://code.google.com/webstats/index.html
  206. [18:57:46] * kingryan read it, factoryjoe
  207. [18:57:58] * factoryjoe trots off to read "it"
  208. [18:58:08] <kingryan> tantek, I bet wp alone would do it
  209. [18:58:09] <pnhChris> yeah. that's the comment i saw before
  210. [18:58:09] <bewest|work> yeah, I mentioned that earlier today microformats is favorably mentioned by google
  211. [18:58:30] <tantek> kingryan, could be, but still amazing that XFN outdid Dublin Core
  212. [18:58:37] <bewest|work> and tantek is mentioned favorably in the discussion on "rel"
  213. [18:58:44] <tantek> yes bewest, we're riffing on your thread
  214. [18:58:58] <kingryan> affrg, SVG is slow
  215. [18:59:00] <kingryan> arrrg*
  216. [18:59:16] * bewest|work pipes down
  217. [18:59:19] <_psychic_> it doesn't seem to work at all on my machine :(
  218. [18:59:31] <tantek> oh, is that what is causing my Firefox 1.5 to lag and sometimes crash? SVG?
  219. [18:59:37] <kingryan> _psychic_, did you try it with FireFox?
  220. [18:59:40] <tantek> (while reading these google pages)
  221. [18:59:51] <_psychic_> kingryan: good call - I'll try that
  222. [18:59:56] <kingryan> yeah, these graphs are all svg
  223. [19:00:05] <kingryan> FF has, arguably the best svg support
  224. [19:00:09] <kingryan> but it still sucks
  225. [19:00:10] <bewest|work> ah I was wondering if svg was slow for just me
  226. [19:00:21] <bewest|work> very slow
  227. [19:00:30] * tantek needs to update his CSS polygons hacks
  228. [19:00:32] <limbo_> FF stabilty gets worse from version to version (at least on pc)
  229. [19:00:45] <tantek> CSS polygons are ironically much faster than the SVG implementation in FF.
  230. [19:01:17] * kingryan needs to look at tantek's css polygons
  231. [19:01:40] <kingryan> yeah, they could probably have done most of these graphs (at least the bar graphs) w/ just html+css
  232. [19:01:50] <tantek> precisely
  233. [19:01:50] <limbo_> tag is a big part of the recent "Web 2.0 collaborative remixability social tagging" trend.
  234. [19:01:54] <limbo_> go meme go!
  235. [19:01:54] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-194-113.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  236. [19:02:05] <tantek> ooh, my polygons page is #10 on Google for "polygons"
  237. [19:02:26] <tantek> http://www.google.com/search?q=polygons
  238. [19:02:42] <tantek> http://www.tantek.com/CSS/Examples/polygons.html
  239. [19:03:14] <kingryan> wow, it appears that most people use presentational classnames: http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html
  240. [19:03:48] <kingryan> "footer", "small", "header", "smalltext"
  241. [19:03:52] <limbo_> yeah, the state of the sematic-markup-o'sphere is bad bad bad
  242. [19:03:59] <limbo_> there's at least two microsoftisms in there
  243. [19:04:07] <kingryan> of course, the pages surveyed may have been created long ago
  244. [19:04:21] <kingryan> pre-semantic markup revolution
  245. [19:04:23] <limbo_> the mso.... one and the style1 i think would also be ms related
  246. [19:04:25] <tantek> footer and header are semantic
  247. [19:04:38] <limbo_> ryan, that's still the overwhelming majority of content
  248. [19:04:46] <kingryan> true, limbo_
  249. [19:04:49] <kingryan> which is fine
  250. [19:04:50] <pnhChris> knowing that many MS Office publish docs are out there is a bit scary :P
  251. [19:05:06] <kingryan> tantek, I could put the same info in either a footer or a sidebar
  252. [19:05:10] <kingryan> and might want to move it
  253. [19:05:24] <limbo_> yeah, i tried publishing with word once. then i looked at the html source and never did it again.
  254. [19:05:38] <kingryan> ok, this is definitely Hixie's work
  255. [19:05:46] <tantek> yeah, that's my impression as well
  256. [19:05:46] <kingryan> "This actually maps very well to the elements that are being proposed in HTML5:"
  257. [19:05:52] <kingryan> from http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html
  258. [19:06:24] <tantek> woohoo! top two <a rel> values are microformats!
  259. [19:06:25] <tantek> http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/element-a.html
  260. [19:06:29] <tantek> rel="nofollow"
  261. [19:06:32] <tantek> rel="license"
  262. [19:06:39] <kingryan> hells yes
  263. [19:06:42] <tantek> #5 is rel-tag!
  264. [19:07:09] <kingryan> rel has been pwned
  265. [19:08:37] <trovster> I wanna know what footer and header are classes!!! I mean, how many per page do people need.
  266. [19:08:38] <kingryan> pnhChris, at least there are more text/plain documents than application/msword
  267. [19:09:02] <kingryan> trovster, I don't understand?
  268. [19:09:02] <trovster> I created my first site in word. Kickass!
  269. [19:09:13] <kingryan> I don't think it says there are more than one per page
  270. [19:09:27] * kingryan created his first website in clarisworks
  271. [19:09:38] <trovster> kingryan: So why not use an ID.
  272. [19:09:50] <kingryan> ah, good point, trovster
  273. [19:09:53] <trovster> classes are used so they can be repeated on the page...
  274. [19:09:58] <kingryan> I think that's what I usually do
  275. [19:10:10] <pnhChris> yeah.. but then you can't use id for something else
  276. [19:10:27] <trovster> I'm using an Id naming scheme that Andy Clarke proposed.
  277. [19:10:31] <pnhChris> (think more along the liens of a site wide style sheet)
  278. [19:10:45] <trovster> pnhChris: eh?
  279. [19:10:46] <kingryan> right, but each page will have only one footer, no?
  280. [19:11:12] <trovster> I've always wanted a standard on id naming convention for general block elements. Could that be in the scope of microformats?
  281. [19:11:26] <kingryan> trovster, have you seen webpatterns.org?
  282. [19:11:33] <trovster> Nope
  283. [19:11:39] <hober> I imagine wordpress' default theme is what bumped xfn up so high
  284. [19:11:54] <kingryan> they're doing something similar to µf's, but a much higher-level, interaction focused view
  285. [19:13:17] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  286. [19:15:53] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@64-172-16-242.ded.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  287. [19:16:56] <kingryan> in the survey, anytime microsoft office and HTML are mentioned together, HTML is in quotes
  288. [19:17:01] <kingryan> I like that
  289. [19:17:15] <bewest|work> yeah
  290. [19:17:20] <_psychic_> haha
  291. [19:17:51] <kingryan> example: "Most (all?) of the xmlns:foo attributes are artefacts of Microsoft Office's creative "HTML""
  292. [19:18:57] <bewest|work> how is a footer class non-semantic?
  293. [19:19:07] <bewest|work> or rather, what makes footer so presentational
  294. [19:19:20] <trovster> It's not.
  295. [19:19:23] <bewest|work> btw the style1 class is a macromedia dreamweaver
  296. [19:19:26] <trovster> We were talking about using an ID.
  297. [19:19:32] <kingryan> I admit, there's a fine line here, but I prefer to think of it as presentational
  298. [19:19:36] <kingryan> but that's just me
  299. [19:19:53] <tantek> it's semantic with heavy implication of default presentation
  300. [19:19:59] <kingryan> 'cause I know that I've called things "footer" before, then decided to restyle them as a sidebar
  301. [19:20:01] <tantek> similar to <tfoot>
  302. [19:20:12] <kingryan> and thead?
  303. [19:20:17] <tantek> yes
  304. [19:20:23] <trovster> What'd you call it? id="supplementary-information-you-don't-need-to-read" ?
  305. [19:20:49] <kingryan> depends on what I put there
  306. [19:21:11] <kingryan> recently I had one that I called "colophon," 'cause that's what it really was
  307. [19:21:18] <trovster> Maybe "footnote" is better, but "foot" still means the bottom.
  308. [19:21:48] <kingryan> it's not a big deal, just a personal preference
  309. [19:21:54] <trovster> Aye.
  310. [19:22:00] <trovster> But I think semantics can be taken tooo far.
  311. [19:22:28] <kingryan> indeed
  312. [19:22:31] <tantek> remember that ordering is part of semantics
  313. [19:22:49] <tantek> thus header implies it comes before, and footer implies it comes after
  314. [19:22:52] <kingryan> but the document structure can do that already
  315. [19:23:00] * bewest|work always wondered why there was no "foot" element in html
  316. [19:23:02] <tantek> whether that is left to right or top to bottom is presentational
  317. [19:23:08] <factoryjoe> <table><thead><tbody><tfoot></table>
  318. [19:23:13] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2491P014.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  319. [19:23:13] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  320. [19:23:14] <bewest|work> you have root html and then head, and body as children... why no foot?
  321. [19:23:35] <factoryjoe> interesting that table has these elements and body doesn't map the same
  322. [19:23:38] <kingryan> there might be something in html5
  323. [19:23:42] <trovster> factoryjoe: <tfoot> come before <tbody>
  324. [19:23:45] <bewest|work> if they had made a foot element, I bet we'd see a lot less of id and class attributes labeled "foot" or footer
  325. [19:23:59] <factoryjoe> better might have been (don't hate me) <html><meta><head><body><foot></html>
  326. [19:24:13] <factoryjoe> trovster: oh yeah, true
  327. [19:24:31] <factoryjoe> bewest|work: of course
  328. [19:24:36] <pnhChris> would foot be rendered in the browser window? would head?
  329. [19:24:45] <pnhChris> (to factoryjoe )
  330. [19:25:18] * bewest|work checks if SOAP has a foot
  331. [19:25:29] <kingryan> pnhChris, you wouldn't have to give them any special default presentation
  332. [19:25:30] <tantek> factoryjoe, except that <head> doesn't render
  333. [19:25:32] <tantek> typicaly
  334. [19:25:41] <tantek> thus <html> only really has <body>
  335. [19:25:56] <factoryjoe> tantek: that's a browser default
  336. [19:26:00] <factoryjoe> you can make head render
  337. [19:26:09] <factoryjoe> pnhChris: yes, both would render
  338. [19:26:12] <tantek> but you can't put paragraphs and such in it
  339. [19:26:18] <factoryjoe> tantek: i'm just saying
  340. [19:26:21] <factoryjoe> ignore the existing spec
  341. [19:26:21] <tantek> it certainly wasn't designed to render
  342. [19:26:24] <factoryjoe> of course
  343. [19:26:32] <factoryjoe> hence my suggestion for <meta>
  344. [19:26:34] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  345. [19:26:34] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com)
  346. [19:26:41] <bewest|work> soap has no foot
  347. [19:26:44] <factoryjoe> as a renaming of the *current* <head> tag
  348. [19:26:57] <tantek> yeah, i'm not sure of <meta>
  349. [19:27:16] <factoryjoe> well, that's how <head> is used
  350. [19:27:18] <tantek> all the human readable/relevant stuff should go in the visible content
  351. [19:27:24] <factoryjoe> i don't care what you call it, only how it's used
  352. [19:27:32] <tantek> there's very little meta that is actually useful/necessary
  353. [19:27:36] <factoryjoe> agreed
  354. [19:27:45] <factoryjoe> what about feed alternate links?
  355. [19:27:50] <factoryjoe> guess those are the orange chicklets?
  356. [19:27:58] <tantek> yep
  357. [19:27:59] <factoryjoe> instead of <link rel /> etc?
  358. [19:28:06] <kingryan> factoryjoe, those are usually repeated, anyway
  359. [19:28:13] <tantek> think <a rel> instead of <link rel> typically
  360. [19:28:23] <tantek> stylesheets are about the only legitimate use there
  361. [19:28:24] <factoryjoe> right
  362. [19:28:26] <factoryjoe> yeah
  363. [19:28:31] <factoryjoe> what about script tags?
  364. [19:28:33] <tantek> sometimes alternate language versions
  365. [19:28:33] <kingryan> and script?
  366. [19:28:38] <tantek> script tags go anywhere already
  367. [19:28:43] <factoryjoe> sure but...
  368. [19:28:45] <trovster> Oh, is there a microformat for RSS then? <a href="" rel="rss"> ?
  369. [19:28:53] <factoryjoe> wouldn't it be nice if you could rely on <body> to contain just content?
  370. [19:29:15] <tantek> that assume you agree on what "just content" means
  371. [19:29:15] <hober> trovster: rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"
  372. [19:29:17] <kingryan> trovster, a@type
  373. [19:29:17] <trovster> It annoys me with sites that only have <link> to their RSS. As I don't want to use FF live bookmarks, but another program.
  374. [19:29:22] <pnhChris> it really be nice if browsers were smart enough that feeds and such didn't have to be "content"
  375. [19:29:27] <factoryjoe> tantek: visible content
  376. [19:29:27] <trovster> hober: Not in <link> in <a href="">
  377. [19:29:34] <trovster> kingryan: ?
  378. [19:29:40] <factoryjoe> pnhChris: man, I can't wait
  379. [19:29:41] <pnhChris> trovster: sounds like FF needs more options :P
  380. [19:29:41] <kingryan> what hober said
  381. [19:29:43] <hober> trovster: <link/> and <a/> take all the same args
  382. [19:29:44] <factoryjoe> ;)
  383. [19:29:48] <hober> so just s/link/a/
  384. [19:29:54] <factoryjoe> if only we had another browser...
  385. [19:30:03] <kingryan> safari works pretty well
  386. [19:30:07] <tantek> btw, the existing use of class="content" may be a reason to reconsider using it in hAtom
  387. [19:30:20] <trovster> pnhChris: Yes, tell me about it. AND that when you save them livebookmark, it takes the page name you were on, and not the title attribute of the <link> which is annoying.
  388. [19:30:20] <kingryan> tantek, yes
  389. [19:30:43] <tantek> warning: slow loading page: http://code.google.com/webstats/2005-12/classes.html
  390. [19:30:50] <trovster> hober: So, <a href="" rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml"> would be valid?
  391. [19:31:03] <hober> trovster: yes
  392. [19:31:17] <pnhChris> tantek: camino seems to be loading all of those pretty speedily
  393. [19:31:17] <hober> though it would be better with s/rss/atom/ :)
  394. [19:31:23] <trovster> hober: Interesting.
  395. [19:31:31] <tantek> how do i turn off SVG in FF 1.5?
  396. [19:31:36] <trovster> hober: Well, I'd have both ;) maybe
  397. [19:31:44] <factoryjoe> tantek: build from source
  398. [19:31:58] <kingryan> tantek: you need svg for this survey
  399. [19:32:08] <kingryan> camino++
  400. [19:32:11] <hober> trovster: only give people one feed. their feed reader can handle the format.
  401. [19:32:45] <tantek> kingryan, this is dumb, they should at least provide PNG fallback images
  402. [19:32:53] <kingryan> trovster, the only problem with type="application/rss+xml" is that I don't believe that rss has a registered type
  403. [19:33:06] <kingryan> tantek, talk to hixie
  404. [19:33:30] <trovster> hober: hmm, that's a good point, but I'm not sure over RSS2.0 and Atom. I have a script for both.
  405. [19:33:34] <kingryan> I tried looking at it with safari and it couldn't do the svg and there was no fallback
  406. [19:33:48] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.69.3 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  407. [19:34:16] * tantek wonders if we could come up with a barchart microformat that could be styled with CSS to *look* like a barchart
  408. [19:34:35] <factoryjoe> safari choked
  409. [19:34:51] <kingryan> tantek, people have already experimented with this
  410. [19:34:52] <factoryjoe> tantek: someone posted CSS for doing bar charts teh other day from definition lists
  411. [19:35:05] <factoryjoe> http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/barchart.html
  412. [19:35:08] <kingryan> eric meyer's done some work with it
  413. [19:35:11] <tantek> i know there have been experiments
  414. [19:35:18] <factoryjoe> http://apples-to-oranges.com/blog/article.aspx?id=55
  415. [19:35:52] <tantek> but the markup sucks frankly
  416. [19:36:05] <tantek> that first example violates DRY
  417. [19:37:12] <tantek> actually both do
  418. [19:37:13] <bewest|work> anyone have a preferred way to markup a form such that it presents like a table? unordered list? definition list?
  419. [19:37:16] <tantek> that's the problem
  420. [19:37:28] <trovster> DRY?
  421. [19:37:37] <RobertBachmann> don't repeat yourself
  422. [19:37:44] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  423. [19:37:44] <trovster> bewest|work: I use DLs
  424. [19:37:49] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  425. [19:38:22] <factoryjoe> tantek: indeed
  426. [19:38:29] <factoryjoe> tantek: did you ever see my stars?
  427. [19:38:41] <kingryan> factoryjoe, I showed them to him
  428. [19:38:54] <kingryan> you might not like the reaction :D
  429. [19:38:57] <trovster> What stars? Rating system?
  430. [19:39:03] <factoryjoe> oh
  431. [19:39:06] <factoryjoe> doh
  432. [19:39:11] <factoryjoe> trovster: yeah
  433. [19:39:15] <factoryjoe> semantic using forms
  434. [19:39:29] <kingryan> and personally, after I dug into it, it seems quite kludgy
  435. [19:39:30] <trovster> I'd be interested in seeing, I've read a few.
  436. [19:39:35] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@A17-207-14-244.apple.com) has joined #microformats
  437. [19:39:39] <kingryan> there may not be a better way, though
  438. [19:39:45] <factoryjoe> http://factorycity.net/demos/drupal/rating/default.html
  439. [19:39:53] <bewest|work> so you don't think wrapping a label in a dt is a bit excessive?
  440. [19:39:53] <factoryjoe> kingryan: of course
  441. [19:40:11] <trovster> bewest|work: That's what some people argue.
  442. [19:40:21] <factoryjoe> basically i was trying to replicate the amazon star system
  443. [19:40:25] <factoryjoe> in doing so
  444. [19:40:28] <bewest|work> factoryjoe: nice... netflicks has something similar
  445. [19:40:31] <factoryjoe> i realized they were using an iframe and a table
  446. [19:40:50] <factoryjoe> so i decided to do it w/ labels and radio buttons
  447. [19:40:56] <factoryjoe> check it w/o styles in firefox
  448. [19:41:00] <trovster> factoryjoe: I suggest you look at this, I like that. http://komodomedia.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/09/css-star-rating-part-deux/
  449. [19:41:05] <trovster> Prefer that, even
  450. [19:41:12] <factoryjoe> trovster: i've seen that
  451. [19:41:18] <factoryjoe> but it's not semantic from what i recall
  452. [19:41:22] <factoryjoe> it doesn't use labels
  453. [19:41:36] <kingryan> yeah, trovster, that one isn't very semantic markup
  454. [19:41:40] <factoryjoe> yeah, that's not a form
  455. [19:41:44] <factoryjoe> those are links
  456. [19:41:53] <kingryan> they use a list of <a href>'s
  457. [19:41:58] <trovster> Ah, ok yeh.
  458. [19:42:07] <factoryjoe> trovster: did you check my markup?
  459. [19:42:20] <kingryan> it should really be a select or a radio group
  460. [19:42:27] <factoryjoe> radio group?
  461. [19:42:33] <factoryjoe> kingryan: it is
  462. [19:42:39] <trovster> I saw the radio buttons, yes, with ???? by them ;)
  463. [19:42:42] <factoryjoe> turn off yoru firefox styles!
  464. [19:42:49] <factoryjoe> trovster: on mac, those are stars
  465. [19:42:59] <trovster> Yes, on FF there are too.
  466. [19:43:02] <trovster> Oh.
  467. [19:43:11] <trovster> Sorry, I understand now.... wierd.
  468. [19:43:20] <trovster> Using a different font then.
  469. [19:43:28] <factoryjoe> yeah
  470. [19:43:31] <trovster> I think a select is more appropriate. But radios are also good.
  471. [19:43:34] <factoryjoe> obviously you could change it
  472. [19:43:49] <trovster> Yup.
  473. [19:44:04] <factoryjoe> and the javascript is not necessary
  474. [19:44:12] <trovster> It requires JS, so why to replace the select with the list and use the one I posted. I think that's the best solution.
  475. [19:44:15] <factoryjoe> since the labels trigger the value setting of the radio buttons
  476. [19:44:24] <factoryjoe> trovster: it doesn't require it
  477. [19:44:31] <factoryjoe> that's only to show the value is recorded
  478. [19:44:41] <factoryjoe> you can remove the js and it will still work
  479. [19:44:46] <factoryjoe> in browsers that support the label tag
  480. [19:45:24] <trovster> Nice.
  481. [19:45:40] <trovster> Wonder how difficult it would be to do from a select box..
  482. [19:46:58] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  483. [19:46:58] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda and brian suda of X2V fame
  484. [19:47:13] <kingryan> hi briansuda
  485. [19:47:18] <briansuda> afternoon
  486. [19:48:27] <factoryjoe> hey briansuda
  487. [19:48:35] <factoryjoe> ok, back to the salt mine for me
  488. [19:52:08] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) has left #microformats
  489. [19:56:49] <kingryan> it would be interesting to segment this google research by age of the document
  490. [19:59:30] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  491. [20:00:22] <limbo_> i think the study should have had a section for the last year
  492. [20:00:38] <limbo_> especially if they wanna use it to justify HTML 5 changes
  493. [20:01:07] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) has joined #microformats
  494. [20:01:09] <briansuda> with the HTTP Headers you should be able to get Last-Modified
  495. [20:02:15] <kingryan> yeah
  496. [20:02:28] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ()
  497. [20:02:34] <kingryan> that may not be 100% reliable, but it'd be interesting to plot the changes in some element/attributes
  498. [20:05:36] <kingryan> I just realized the google survey uses the HTML5 doctype: "<!DOCTYPE HTML>"
  499. [20:07:19] <Hixie> so, er, i see y'all found our recently published research :-D
  500. [20:09:41] <kingryan> yes, Hixie
  501. [20:09:46] <kingryan> very interesting stuff
  502. [20:10:00] <Hixie> thought you'd like it
  503. [20:10:26] <Hixie> hopefully tantek won't complain about me not having done any research now :-P
  504. [20:10:33] <Hixie> over a billion documents! :-P
  505. [20:11:18] <Hixie> btw the stats are all "nuwber of pages that mention", not "number of mentions per page", so e.g. <p><p><p> counts the same number of <p>s as just one <p>.
  506. [20:11:19] <kingryan> wow
  507. [20:11:29] <kingryan> I wish I had the support to do a study that big
  508. [20:12:10] <Hixie> google's great for things like this, people really rally around projects like this
  509. [20:12:48] <kingryan> nice
  510. [20:14:14] <trovster> Hixie: So what about limiting it to recent information ;)
  511. [20:14:38] <Hixie> you mean, like, only pages that have recent Last-Modified-Since headers?
  512. [20:14:49] <limbo_> or to information published by microformats advocates...
  513. [20:14:55] <trovster> Yeh, like limbo_ mentioned.
  514. [20:15:17] <Hixie> don't see how to do that
  515. [20:15:25] <Hixie> could limit it to L-M-S headers relatively easily
  516. [20:15:30] <Hixie> i was thinking of doing that at one point
  517. [20:15:43] <kingryan> how about limiting it just to tantek's blog?
  518. [20:15:51] <kingryan> :D
  519. [20:15:55] <limbo_> hehe
  520. [20:16:16] <kingryan> I'd be really interested in seeing trends over time
  521. [20:16:21] <Hixie> yeah, me too
  522. [20:16:26] <limbo_> thing is, there's tons of cruft on the internet. trying to look at more recent trends would be more informative
  523. [20:16:27] <kingryan> especially with presentational elements/attributes
  524. [20:16:35] <kingryan> yeah, limbo_
  525. [20:17:08] <Hixie> i wouldn't be surprised if a lot of recent pages suck too :-)
  526. [20:17:09] <Hixie> but yeah
  527. [20:17:26] <limbo_> even if you only come up with some heuristic to filter newer docs that's not 100% accurate it would be very interesting
  528. [20:17:59] <kingryan> yeah, Hixie, but we could hope that they suck less
  529. [20:18:03] <kingryan> or suck in different ways
  530. [20:18:37] <limbo_> it's not so much about the sucking as about the differences in what people do
  531. [20:18:45] <Hixie> but do you want to see your dreams shattered, that's the question :-)
  532. [20:18:49] <Hixie> i agree it would be interesting
  533. [20:18:58] <limbo_> hehe good point
  534. [20:19:27] <kingryan> Hixie, I don't have dreams, only nightmares
  535. [20:21:07] * taare (i=taare@ti100710a081-3363.bb.online.no) has joined #microformats
  536. [20:21:24] <trovster> 'lo taare
  537. [20:21:29] <taare> Hi
  538. [20:21:35] <Hixie> where is tantek, anyway
  539. [20:21:45] <briansuda> obviously google has a large data set already, but with the same code you COULD grep the files from tthe internet archive, then you could possibly do more trend analysis because you know the dates the files were saved
  540. [20:22:10] <kingryan> tantek's been sick lately
  541. [20:22:22] <kingryan> good point, briansuda
  542. [20:22:47] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  543. [20:23:36] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-87-129.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  544. [20:23:36] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  545. [20:24:08] <KevinMarks> i have a db of rel values in blogs
  546. [20:24:32] <trovster> I've added the XFN ones for a few sites in to a DB. How many are ther?
  547. [20:25:00] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  548. [20:25:16] <pnhChris> age is tough too though.. have a lot of stuff that may have been designed 4 years ago, but due to copy changes or other things as small as changing the copyright date or destroying the date stamps moving hosts in the modified dates wouldn't be very representative of the markup
  549. [20:28:14] <kingryan> pnhChris, presumably, that situation could be avoided by using the internet archive
  550. [20:28:45] <bkdelong_> But in my experience the IA is "hella incomplete"
  551. [20:29:50] <bkdelong_> very hard to rely on.
  552. [20:29:56] <kingryan> yes, bkdelong_
  553. [20:30:13] <kingryan> they're still reliant on alexa data, though they're trying to get away from that
  554. [20:30:35] <kingryan> they're doing specialized crawls for certain, historically significant topics
  555. [20:30:50] <kingryan> and are looking towards doing their own interweb-wide crawling
  556. [20:31:04] <bkdelong_> which makes sense. And Heritrix looks pretty good and robust.
  557. [20:34:08] <kingryan> yeah, heretrix is good
  558. [20:34:25] <kingryan> but, I believe, the engineer who's built most of it has left
  559. [20:34:46] <bkdelong_> Who? Gordon Mohr?
  560. [20:35:14] <bkdelong_> (My Heritrix history knowledge is limited)
  561. [20:35:18] <kingryan> no, uh, I can't remember his name now
  562. [20:35:33] <kingryan> but I've met him before and some of my classmates have worked on it
  563. [20:35:40] <bkdelong_> gotcha
  564. [20:35:54] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  565. [20:36:42] <kingryan> their project - http://chronica.cs.usfca.edu/
  566. [20:37:38] <bkdelong_> Nice, thanks. Anyway....we're off topic. What were we using IA to search for?
  567. [20:38:02] <kingryan> have you seen the google report? code.google.com/webstats/index.html
  568. [20:38:37] <kingryan> oh and the heretrix engineer's name was Igor Ranitovic
  569. [20:39:25] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  570. [20:39:46] * _psychic_ (n=john@c-24-2-78-210.hsd1.ut.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  571. [20:41:10] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|afk
  572. [20:42:39] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  573. [20:46:04] * tantek returns
  574. [20:46:11] * tantek scrolls up
  575. [20:46:17] <tantek> oh hey Hixie, nice to see you drop by
  576. [20:46:29] <Hixie> hey tantek
  577. [20:46:37] <Hixie> a billion pages! :-D
  578. [20:46:41] <tantek> i'm probably going to be in/out of here as I try to rest/recuperate today
  579. [20:46:44] <tantek> yeah, nice
  580. [20:46:49] <Hixie> hope you get better soon, dude
  581. [20:46:54] <Hixie> sorry to hear you're under the weather
  582. [20:46:55] <tantek> definitely an impressive set of research!
  583. [20:46:59] <tantek> yeah, being sick sucks
  584. [20:47:11] <tantek> it really cuts down on productivity
  585. [20:47:16] * dglazkov didn't know tantek was sick
  586. [20:47:19] <Hixie> yeah, really
  587. [20:47:21] <dglazkov> you don't sound sick
  588. [20:47:24] <trovster> Tell me 'bout it. Moving my eyes hurts !
  589. [20:47:28] <trovster> dglazkov: Hehe.
  590. [20:47:41] <tantek> hrgmmgm, gurgle, cough cough
  591. [20:47:45] <_fil_> I have a ridiculous question: how do you do "feed autodiscovery" on yourself when you're an hAtom "feed"?
  592. [20:48:07] <tantek> you autodiscover to an XSLT which converts the hAtom into Atom
  593. [20:48:14] <_fil_> I was sick yesterday, enjoyed being "non-productive"
  594. [20:48:19] <_fil_> no no
  595. [20:48:30] <dglazkov> get well, tantek, get better
  596. [20:48:39] <tantek> thx dglazkov
  597. [20:48:43] <_fil_> I mean, how does a (future) web browser "find out" that my page is hatom
  598. [20:49:03] <tantek> well once we have an hAtom profile, at a URL
  599. [20:49:15] <tantek> then your page references that profile in the <head profile="">
  600. [20:49:21] <_fil_> okay
  601. [20:49:41] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  602. [20:49:47] <tantek> and then it presumably looks for the hAtom root class(es)
  603. [20:49:54] <tantek> like hfeed and hentry presumably
  604. [20:50:11] <_fil_> so it's not going to be feed/entry after all?
  605. [20:50:36] <_fil_> I've got all the parts working, just waiting for "final draft" :)
  606. [20:51:07] <_fil_> or takeoff
  607. [20:56:50] <BenjaminCarlyle> _fil_: The latest hAtom2Atom.xsl hosted by RobertBachmann uses the new nomenclature. I'm not sure whether or not the current version is considered the 0.1 draft or not at this stage. It hasn't changed since the 10th, and still defines opacity rules.
  608. [20:58:17] <BenjaminCarlyle> <http://rbach.priv.at/repos/hatom/hatom2atom.xsl/trunk/>
  609. [20:59:32] <tantek> i am still convinced that any of the opacity rules are necessary at all
  610. [20:59:39] <tantek> (for hAtom that is)
  611. [20:59:59] <_fil_> I think opacity is too complicated
  612. [21:00:11] <tantek> worse, it is unnecessary
  613. [21:00:11] <_fil_> you need to apply the 80/20 rule here too :)
  614. [21:00:24] <tantek> sorry
  615. [21:00:26] <tantek> i meant
  616. [21:00:36] <tantek> i am still NOT convinced that any of the opacity rules are necessary at all
  617. [21:00:53] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-1-222.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  618. [21:01:02] <_fil_> no, you meant: "i am still convinced opacity rules are NOT necessary at all" :)
  619. [21:01:28] <BenjaminCarlyle> I think that's probably the case. Opacity makes it hard to do excerpts, tagging... a number of useful things. I think it's probably too big a hammer to apply to the root problem (not wanting to pick up another microformat's elements as it's own).
  620. [21:01:42] <tantek> right
  621. [21:01:54] <tantek> if necessary, the mfo approach is much gentler
  622. [21:01:58] <tantek> and more targeted
  623. [21:02:00] <_fil_> shudder
  624. [21:03:27] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has left #microformats
  625. [21:03:58] <tantek> now, what hAtom *could* say is that hAtom parsers should not look inside any hCards, hCalendar events, or hReviews
  626. [21:04:11] <tantek> sort of a limited, case-specific opacity
  627. [21:04:30] <tantek> though even then, I could see utility for overlapping an hentry and an hreview
  628. [21:05:29] * BenjaminCarlyle nods
  629. [21:06:09] <BenjaminCarlyle> mfo would allow authors to put up parser barriers wherever the liked.
  630. [21:09:49] <BenjaminCarlyle> I'm still struggling for clarity on what the citation microformat is trying to achieve. Is it a citation of another person's blog entry or online paper, or a citation of a print media? Is it both? Isn't that too broad? Is it trying to give a quote (or blockquote) context (Fred Bloggs wrote...), or is it trying to describe an article in more detail?
  631. [21:15:05] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  632. [21:15:40] <drumm> why wouldn't hatom parsers ignore other microformats?
  633. [21:15:48] <drumm> *would
  634. [21:16:21] <BenjaminCarlyle> Ahh.. (finally gets to Ryan King's citations vs conversations email) :)
  635. [21:17:09] <tantek> drumm, not ignore, just not look inside for their own properties
  636. [21:17:33] <BenjaminCarlyle> drum: If another microformat used a term that hAtom uses to mean the same thing, but in a different context... then hAtom would do well to ignore it. It doesn't apply to the hAtom, instead it applies to the microformat within the hAtom content.
  637. [21:18:20] <BenjaminCarlyle> Actually, I don't think there are any such terms at the moment... (checks...) Except for the rel-bookmark everything in hAtom is new, I think.
  638. [21:18:35] <tantek> rel-tag
  639. [21:19:51] <drumm> ah okay
  640. [21:21:35] <BenjaminCarlyle> tantek: Oh, I missed that. It must have been added in the early January mods.
  641. [21:22:43] <BenjaminCarlyle> In fact, I think one of David's ideas was that hAtom might be able to be embedded in hAtom. If that were to be possible some form of opacity may apply, but it could be limited easily to hfeed and hentry. That's not to even say it is a good idea to permit such a thing :)
  642. [21:23:23] <_fil_> keep it simple, my friends
  643. [21:23:38] <tantek> yes
  644. [21:24:27] * kingryan|afk is now known as kingryan
  645. [21:24:48] * izo_ (n=izo@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  646. [21:24:55] <RobertBachmann> regarding hatom2atom.xsl: It's currently not fully compilant with the current draft. I'm planning to make it compilant when I have some spare time at hand. Having a day job realy cuts down on productivity. ;-)
  647. [21:27:31] <RobertBachmann> s/day job/serve your country/
  648. [21:28:29] <dglazkov> guys, I have a quick implementor question...
  649. [21:29:00] <dglazkov> anybody knows of a good LGPL/MIT SGML parser?
  650. [21:29:40] <RobertBachmann> why SGML and not XML?
  651. [21:29:46] <dglazkov> something that could convert real-life (read "crappy") HTML into XML
  652. [21:30:46] <RobertBachmann> what about HTML Tidy -asxml and a XML parser of your choise?
  653. [21:31:49] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4404 * BenjaminCarlyle * (+1239) Add examples from my blog
  654. [21:32:01] <dglazkov> that sounds good. I didn't realize it was on such an open license.
  655. [21:34:39] <BenjaminCarlyle> Robert: What are the comliance issues you are aware of?
  656. [21:35:21] * BenjaminCarlyle is celebrating his nation's national day
  657. [21:37:00] <trovster> Scottish or Irish?
  658. [21:37:41] <trovster> I mean Welsh! heh
  659. [21:37:54] <trovster> Burns or St. Dwynwen ?
  660. [21:38:14] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  661. [21:38:32] <BenjaminCarlyle> The 26th of January is Australia day :)
  662. [21:38:50] <trovster> Oh, heh, you're a day ahead of yourself ;)
  663. [21:39:01] <RobertBachmann> The class="hfeed hentry" special case, which we already talked about and I gues there will be some more minor problems.
  664. [21:39:32] <RobertBachmann> guess*
  665. [21:42:11] <BenjaminCarlyle> Ryan King was on microformats-discuss the other day saying that locality and adr should not both be on the same element because we would lose the ability to disambiguate the locality term. [subject Re: [uf-discuss] locality sans adr;abbr for state/country etc?] [date Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:29:57 -0800]
  666. [21:42:17] <kingryan> why even do class="hfeed hentry" ?
  667. [21:42:24] <kingryan> yes, BenjaminCarlyle
  668. [21:42:25] <BenjaminCarlyle> Does that recommendation apply more generally?
  669. [21:42:26] <BenjaminCarlyle> :)
  670. [21:42:34] <BenjaminCarlyle> Morning, kingryan :)
  671. [21:42:38] <kingryan> we don't have much hierarchy in mf's
  672. [21:42:48] <kingryan> but the cases where we do are important
  673. [21:42:52] <kingryan> so, we can't collapse them
  674. [21:43:04] <kingryan> (without creating ambiguities)
  675. [21:43:24] <kingryan> for example, hcard has a property, AGENT, which is another hcard
  676. [21:43:25] <kingryan> :D
  677. [21:44:08] <kingryan> so <span class="hcard"><span class="agent fn">ryan king</span></span> is ambiguous
  678. [21:45:05] * BenjaminCarlyle nods
  679. [21:47:11] <kingryan> so the rule is pretty much universal with mf's
  680. [21:47:34] <kingryan> in other words, I don't think we've seen a case where it was reasonable to relax it
  681. [21:49:19] <RobertBachmann> we should add this to hatom-issues
  682. [21:49:30] <kingryan> why hatom specifically?
  683. [21:51:13] <kingryan> RobertBachmann?
  684. [21:51:53] <RobertBachmann> yes, one moment please. I'm currently searching the wiki.
  685. [21:52:00] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-93-45.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  686. [21:54:47] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  687. [21:55:06] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  688. [21:55:21] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4405 * RyanKing * (+2019) Casey Conroy - adding analysis
  689. [21:55:42] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4406 * RyanKing * (-47) Brian Suda -
  690. [21:55:53] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  691. [21:58:49] <RobertBachmann> kingryan: AFAIK hatom is the only draft which uses this exotic class="container-class-name child-class-name" construct
  692. [21:59:12] <kingryan> what about hcalendar?
  693. [21:59:17] <kingryan> and xfolk?
  694. [22:00:00] <kingryan> are there hatom examples which collapse the two?
  695. [22:00:33] <tantek> not afaik
  696. [22:00:37] <tantek> there shouldn't be
  697. [22:01:37] <RobertBachmann> IIRC someone (Brian Suda) once mentioned somewhere that this caused major problems with parsing and was therefore forbidden.
  698. [22:02:30] <BenjaminCarlyle> There isn't a lot of hAtom out there, a this stage. There should be no need to use class="hfeed hentry", even for a single-entry feed. The html body can carry the hfeed class. If worst comes to worst separatig the two may mean placing a div where there was previously no div.
  699. [22:03:57] <BenjaminCarlyle> In terms of general standardisation practice it is probably best to prohibit things that may not be used. You can always relax a spec later once you have more data to base your decisions on, but prohibiting bad things that were once permitted is harder.
  700. [22:06:55] <_fil_> when you write a single article page as a hfeed you are (I am) tempted to write class="hfeed hentry", for the beauty of it
  701. [22:07:04] <_fil_> so please forbid this
  702. [22:09:55] <kingryan> why even use hfeed?
  703. [22:10:19] <kingryan> I know we don't have it defined yet in hatom, but atom allows for entry documents (ie, not part of a feed)
  704. [22:12:03] <RobertBachmann> Does that mean using only class="hentry" w/o class="hfeed" for single entry feeds?
  705. [22:12:34] * bewest|work (n=bewest@pcp0011022684pcs.midltn01.nj.comcast.net) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  706. [22:13:00] <BenjaminCarlyle> That would be a fair parallel.
  707. [22:13:56] <RobertBachmann> IIRC this is what David Janes proposed orginaly.
  708. [22:14:29] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  709. [22:14:33] <kingryan> yes, RobertBachmann, but I think we deferred it to future work
  710. [22:15:16] <RobertBachmann> I see.
  711. [22:15:38] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4407 * RyanKing * (+1417) added brian suda + analysis
  712. [22:15:52] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2491P014.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit ("bye")
  713. [22:16:39] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4408 * RyanKing * (+20) Brian Suda - cleaning up formatting
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  715. [22:26:50] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
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  718. [22:27:45] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  719. [22:29:30] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  720. [22:33:01] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit (Client Quit)
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  722. [22:36:06] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=4409 * RyanKing * (-257)
  723. [22:37:11] <trovster> If any ones on efnet, join the same channel name. Cheers.
  724. [22:40:11] * therealadam (n=adam@66.196.247.89) has joined #microformats
  725. [22:46:03] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  726. [22:46:32] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4410 * RyanKing * (+277) responding to some issues
  727. [22:49:28] <mfbot> [[resume-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples&diff=0&oldid=4411 * RyanKing * (+8) just moving the TOC down
  728. [23:03:49] * Tantek (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  729. [23:21:55] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4412 * RyanKing * (+4) ISBN:// Protocol - fixing link that was broken in the rearranging yesterday
  730. [23:28:04] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  731. [23:31:01] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  732. [23:42:37] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4413 * EranGloben * (+5) Authors -
  733. [23:42:44] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
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  736. [23:54:24] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  737. [23:54:24] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  738. [23:56:03] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4414 * EranGloben * (+2214) added SIOC info
  739. [23:56:40] <limbo_> SIOC is pretty cool. an RDF implementation of the "distributed social anything" i wrote about
  740. [23:58:24] <mfbot> [[distributed-conversation-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=distributed-conversation-examples&diff=0&oldid=4415 * EranGloben * (+25) formatting Author, href and blockquote -
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