IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:56] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4649 * RyanKing * (+6) Feed - cleared up the verbiage re: classnames
  2. [00:01:57] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4650 * RyanKing * (-39) Entry -
  3. [00:02:48] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4651 * RyanKing * (+6) Entry Title - cleaning up verbiage re: classname
  4. [00:04:35] <mfbot> [[using-utf-8]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/using-utf-8 * Tantek * (+2107) first draft
  5. [00:04:56] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4652 * RyanKing * (+13) Entry Title - changing verbiage re: class names
  6. [00:05:17] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4653 * RyanKing * (+1)
  7. [00:06:18] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4654 * Ant * (+15353) added Trillian & Google Talk formats
  8. [00:07:44] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4655 * RyanKing * (-1) Implementations - just some whitespace cleaning
  9. [00:09:25] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4656 * Ant * (-9511) revert to before I duplicated the page
  10. [00:10:31] <cks> does the wiki do merges?
  11. [00:10:37] <TantekC> no
  12. [00:11:17] <TantekC> who is Ant?
  13. [00:11:34] <TantekC> it looks like we're seeing a problem with chat-examples that has occured with other -examples pages
  14. [00:11:53] <TantekC> namely, that *formats* are being added, rather than discrete examples
  15. [00:12:07] <kingryan> uh yeah
  16. [00:12:20] <cks> not sure i totally get the difference, is there a good rundown on what's meant by that?
  17. [00:12:29] <kingryan> examples = html
  18. [00:12:33] <kingryan> formats = other stuff
  19. [00:12:35] <TantekC> cks, see http://microformats.org/wiki/examples
  20. [00:12:44] <TantekC> here is one good litmus test:
  21. [00:13:02] <TantekC> Can you paste in a URL which points to the actual chat example *content*?
  22. [00:13:03] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  23. [00:13:17] <TantekC> If so, you have an example. If not, you're probably documenting somebody's format.
  24. [00:13:33] <TantekC> Nothing wrong with documenting a format, but do so in the proper place, in a *-formats page, not *-examples
  25. [00:14:04] <cks> will move the chatzilla one over until it's proven somebody actually publishes it
  26. [00:14:06] <mfbot> [[examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples&diff=0&oldid=4657 * RyanKing * (+68) Current - added note about formats
  27. [00:15:00] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  28. [00:16:25] <cks> the rdf ones get a little weird, they're definitely published, plenty or urls, but by the spirit of the rule seem more like a format
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  30. [00:19:27] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4658 * ChristopherStJohn * (+31)
  31. [00:20:48] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  32. [00:21:28] <mfbot> [[chat-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/chat-formats * ChristopherStJohn * (+2003)
  33. [00:21:34] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4659 * ChristopherStJohn * (-1972)
  34. [00:22:25] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4660 * RyanKing * (-122) Nomenclature - cleaning up some language
  35. [00:22:55] <kingryan> cks, the idea behind -examples is to see emergent patterns of what people do on their own
  36. [00:23:27] <kingryan> people are certainly influenced by formats and will publish in formats, but we really want to now, "when left to their own devices, what do people publish?"
  37. [00:23:39] <kingryan> we can then analyze those examples for 'implied schemas'
  38. [00:24:11] <cks> sure, it gets a little weird for irc logs, though, since people don't actually ever create them without help from a program
  39. [00:24:18] <cks> there is no manual authoring
  40. [00:24:26] <kingryan> right, but what about conversations in general?
  41. [00:25:00] <kingryan> what about this: http://kitta.net/2006/02/01/i-am-heartbroken/
  42. [00:25:15] <kingryan> where she re-created the irc conversation in html
  43. [00:25:25] <cks> well, revisting the "why" is probably useful, but the original mailing list discussion in the archives (appeared-to) validate that irc logs in particular were their own problem space
  44. [00:25:36] <mfbot> [[examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples&diff=0&oldid=4661 * Tantek * (-3) Good Examples of Examples -
  45. [00:26:34] <cks> in any case, i'm moving the clearly-formats stuff over into a chat-formats page referenced off the examples page, i assume that's the correct thing to do?
  46. [00:26:43] <kingryan> yes, thanks
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  49. [00:28:42] <TantekC> kingryan, perhaps add the kitta example to the chat-examples page
  50. [00:29:05] * kingryan was hoping to lazy-irc that one
  51. [00:29:05] <kingryan> :D
  52. [00:29:29] <kingryan> I'll do it once cks is done moving stuff around
  53. [00:29:32] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4662 * ChristopherStJohn * (-4125)
  54. [00:29:43] <mfbot> [[chat-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-formats&diff=0&oldid=4663 * ChristopherStJohn * (+4243)
  55. [00:30:10] <kingryan> so, TantekC, I'm looking at http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom, trying to see what can be improved
  56. [00:30:14] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5/2005111116]")
  57. [00:30:21] <kingryan> and I'm tempted to move some of it out into a faq
  58. [00:30:36] <kingryan> there's too much illustrative stuff buried deep in the page
  59. [00:31:17] <cks> i have to go grab a bite to eat, there's still some stuff that neads to be moved and i suspect i'll have a couple more questions, but i won't be returning to edit for about an hour
  60. [00:31:18] <kingryan> and I wish we could kill most of the opacity stuff
  61. [00:31:25] <kingryan> cool
  62. [00:31:50] <TantekC> kingryan, i think most of the opacity stuff is unnecessary
  63. [00:32:08] * kingryan agreed
  64. [00:32:15] <TantekC> though i'd rather see us discuss it on the list and form a consensus rather than do any "executive editing"
  65. [00:32:18] <kingryan> let's pow-wow on it asap
  66. [00:32:24] <kingryan> k
  67. [00:32:31] <TantekC> i remember DavidJanes feeling pretty strongly about it
  68. [00:32:34] <kingryan> for now, I'm just trying to de-cruft the spec and clean it up
  69. [00:32:43] <TantekC> yes, definitely a good thing to do
  70. [00:33:31] <kingryan> I'm making sure the proper terms are used and such
  71. [00:33:40] <kingryan> and taking out speculative aside comments
  72. [00:35:49] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=4664 * RyanKing * (-314) Entry Permalink - removing some cruft
  73. [00:39:28] <TantekC> kingryan, based on the utility of sharing UTF-8 tips, specifically in the context of microformats and moving/parsing/processing microformatted data, i've added a using-utf-8 page
  74. [00:39:46] <kingryan> url?
  75. [00:40:51] <mfbot> [[examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=examples&diff=0&oldid=4665 * Tantek * (+57) moved "not formats" to "not" section under "Behavior"
  76. [00:40:58] <TantekC> http://microformats.org/wiki/using-utf-8
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  78. [00:41:26] <TantekC> I figured perhaps you could add some of what you have discovered with UTF-8 handling with PHP/XSLT and Tidy.
  79. [00:41:37] <TantekC> including perhaps warnings of problems found/encountered
  80. [00:42:09] <TantekC> (in the MIddleware section - feel free to rename)
  81. [00:54:54] <KevinMarks> heh
  82. [00:55:12] <KevinMarks> I wodner how much cursing at perl and mysql I should add there
  83. [00:56:46] <TantekC> KevinMarks, as much as you like ;)
  84. [00:57:02] <TantekC> with hopefully helpful suggestions as to how to avoid the curse-inducing situations
  85. [00:59:08] <KevinMarks> avoid perl, avoid Java ;)
  86. [00:59:32] <KevinMarks> avoid PHP
  87. [00:59:43] <KevinMarks> poke MySQL wiht a large stick
  88. [00:59:58] <kingryan> avoid the web?
  89. [01:00:42] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  90. [01:13:01] * danja (i=DannyAye@host231-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  91. [01:19:10] <kingryan> wow, json got mentioned in at TAG finding
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  94. [01:36:38] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4666 * Tantek * (+362) use tags for stocks also
  95. [01:37:36] <cks> about to start doing some editing on the chat-examples. one thing, given the previous conclusion that irc logs were their own thing, and the new suspicion that they are part of a more general problem, it's probably worth nailing down what exactly the problem is
  96. [01:39:04] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4667 * ChristopherStJohn * (-1019)
  97. [01:39:10] <mfbot> [[chat-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-formats&diff=0&oldid=4668 * ChristopherStJohn * (+1019)
  98. [01:39:39] <kingryan> cks, yes its worth nailing down the problem
  99. [01:39:47] <kingryan> but don't ask me, 'cause I don't have any problems :D
  100. [01:40:16] <cks> i'll post where i'm coming from on the mailing list, see if people care enough to follow up...
  101. [01:43:46] <mfbot> [[chat-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-formats&diff=0&oldid=4669 * ChristopherStJohn * (+2342)
  102. [01:45:47] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4670 * ChristopherStJohn * (-1174)
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  104. [01:46:17] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  106. [01:51:47] <TantekC> cks, yes, the clearer the problem statement you can provide the better.
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  115. [02:47:03] <mfbot> [[using-utf-8]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=using-utf-8&diff=0&oldid=4671 * Tantek * (+136) HTML -
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  119. [03:04:22] <mfbot> [[chat-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-formats&diff=0&oldid=4672 * ChristopherStJohn * (+1461)
  120. [03:04:53] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4673 * ChristopherStJohn * (-1179)
  121. [03:13:49] <mfbot> [[chat-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=chat-examples&diff=0&oldid=4674 * ChristopherStJohn * (+239)
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  124. [03:17:52] <cks> atamido: http://barcamp.org/BarCampAustin?
  125. [03:18:34] <kingryan> go barcamp, go
  126. [03:19:51] <kingryan> !
  127. [03:22:55] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4675 * MarkRickerby * (+27) Alternatives -
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  130. [03:27:14] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  135. [03:41:24] <Atamido> cks: I don't drink, can I still have fun? :P
  136. [03:56:44] <cks> atamido: bar = foo++, not bar=drink
  137. [03:58:00] <cks> although, from what whurley was saying, you may have a point
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  139. [04:06:13] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4676 * MarkRickerby * (+257) New Person 2 -
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  142. [04:30:50] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4677 * ChristopherStJohn * (+18)
  143. [04:39:06] <mfbot> [[start-simple]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=start-simple&diff=0&oldid=4678 * MarkRickerby * (+1004) draft content
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  151. [08:54:01] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  152. [08:54:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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  155. [09:03:56] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  162. [12:04:01] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  167. [14:12:07] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
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  172. [15:16:06] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4679 * Atamido * (+30) Implied "FN and N" Optimization (proposal) - +1 NICKNAME
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  174. [15:29:57] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  176. [15:51:52] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2475P012.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  177. [15:51:52] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  178. [16:09:50] <cks> RobertBachman : doesn't look like your script format is up on chat-examples, i'll add it now unless you planned to...
  179. [16:09:59] <cks> isn't
  180. [16:13:52] <RobertBachmann> I'm not sure if it makes sense to list it there ... as I'm the only one who uses it
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  183. [16:27:41] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  184. [16:27:57] <cks> hmm, you actually publish stuff already using it?
  185. [16:29:17] <cks> the baroque details of "THE PROCESS" sometimes confuse me, might need to bring in a referee :-)
  186. [16:33:25] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  187. [16:33:26] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  188. [16:34:31] <RobertBachmann> cks: The format is used (AFAIK exclusively) by the logs for this IRC channel. http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-02-02 -> View Source
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  192. [17:31:02] <TantekC> greetings
  193. [17:31:13] <TantekC> could someone verify that they can see this URL: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html
  194. [17:31:44] <hober> TantekC: I can see it
  195. [17:32:13] <TantekC> check out the 10:30 session :)
  196. [17:32:35] <hober> indeed
  197. [17:32:37] <hober> very nice
  198. [17:33:16] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=4680 * Tantek * (+90)
  199. [17:37:07] <Atamido> Yay, I can connect to the software now!
  200. [17:37:09] <Atamido> Wooo!
  201. [17:37:18] <Atamido> Oops, wrong channel. :P
  202. [17:37:53] <cks> atamido: care to share the joy?
  203. [17:38:55] <Atamido> A $50,000 hardware/software package from Motorola.
  204. [17:39:24] <Atamido> Turns out the default permissions they ship with don't allow any external connections, which is how you use the software.
  205. [17:40:05] <Atamido> Of course there is absolutely nothing to indicate this anywhere in the software or documentation.
  206. [17:40:12] <cks> heh
  207. [17:40:13] <Atamido> You have to look at the database itself.
  208. [17:40:31] <Atamido> Or use Ethereal and look at the contents of the packes it is sending back and forth.
  209. [17:40:34] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  210. [17:40:34] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  211. [17:40:40] <Atamido> ^ what I did.
  212. [17:40:51] <cks> ?help
  213. [17:42:00] <Atamido> Actually, the documentation is basically worthless.
  214. [17:42:16] <Atamido> It is horribly incomplete and full of errors.
  215. [17:42:31] <Atamido> Apparently the software requires an SVGA soundcard. :P
  216. [17:43:18] <cks> *cough* your joy in actually getting it working is understandable :-)
  217. [17:46:00] <jcgregorio> Atamido: It seems every $50,000 package of hardware/software is an undocumented piece of crud. I'm suprised you could connect over ethernet and weren't forced to use GPIB :)
  218. [17:46:24] <cks> ?def cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
  219. [17:46:24] <jibot> cks is Christopher St. John and has a brain filled with inane drivel from irc chat logs
  220. [17:57:57] <KevinMarks> nice one tantek
  221. [17:58:19] <KevinMarks> no get them to mark it up with hcalendar
  222. [18:06:44] * TantekC pokes DanC to see if he has write access to that page.
  223. [18:10:47] * DanC tunes in, wondering which page
  224. [18:20:31] <TantekC> hi DanC, this page: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html
  225. [18:21:46] <DanC> at a technical level, yes. but I don't know what tool steve is using or whether any edits I made would be preserved
  226. [18:22:10] <DanC> let alone whether the times are stable. (and I'm sure he wouldn't update title="YYYY-MM-DDTHH:MM:SS+0100" stuff)
  227. [18:22:33] * DanC has been noodling on XSLT ways to automate the title stuff
  228. [18:23:45] <DanC> to turn <span class="start">8am</span> to <span class="dtstart start" title="2006-03-01T08:00:00+0100">8am</span>
  229. [18:24:24] <KevinMarks> well, there is the tabular stuff too
  230. [18:24:55] <DanC> TR/html4/loose.dtd . it's not even XML. I'd have to tidy it. I'd need to coordinate that closely.
  231. [18:25:52] <DanC> tabulator stuff?
  232. [18:26:48] <KevinMarks> the way of using table head for columnar info
  233. [18:27:44] * DanC read "tabular" as "tabulator", a la http://dig.csail.mit.edu/breadcrumbs/node/62
  234. [18:28:15] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-brainstorming#Tabular_Data
  235. [18:28:28] <KevinMarks> don't think the parser does that yet
  236. [18:28:32] <TantekC> DanC, "headers" attribute in HTML4
  237. [18:28:41] <TantekC> X2V supports it
  238. [18:28:49] <KevinMarks> oh, it does?
  239. [18:28:51] <KevinMarks> nice
  240. [18:28:56] <TantekC> it has since September!
  241. [18:28:59] <TantekC> live example:
  242. [18:29:03] <DanC> i still haven't seen an example of using headers attributes that makes sense to me
  243. [18:29:19] <TantekC> http://we05.com/program.cfm
  244. [18:29:21] <KevinMarks> you should update the main hCalendar page to say so
  245. [18:29:34] <TantekC> Kevin, yes, that is on my hCalendar to-do list
  246. [18:30:32] <KevinMarks> very cool that you got it in
  247. [18:30:51] <DanC> I don't see anything on program.cfm that calls for header attributes. each <tr> is a vevent, no?
  248. [18:30:51] <TantekC> DanC, e.g. this works: http://feeds.technorati.com/events/http://we05.com/program.cfm
  249. [18:30:59] <TantekC> no
  250. [18:31:04] <KevinMarks> location
  251. [18:31:05] <TantekC> some <tr>s have multiple events
  252. [18:31:11] <TantekC> some don't
  253. [18:31:16] <DanC> ah... location
  254. [18:31:25] <TantekC> and time
  255. [18:31:28] <KevinMarks> oh and time on the oterh axis
  256. [18:31:56] <DanC> ugh... more repeated data: <th axis="location" id="mcfarlane">Stream 2 (<span class="location">McFarlane</span>)</th>
  257. [18:32:44] <DanC> ugh... and even more: <td class="vevent" colspan="2" headers="guthrie t1615">
  258. [18:33:27] <DanC> how is this better than putting all the data in each cell? it's even *more* redundant than that
  259. [18:34:16] * DanC grabs lunch...
  260. [18:35:25] <TantekC> DanC, it is better because it preserved the visual layout that the page author created
  261. [18:35:52] <TantekC> those id's could have been id="L1", id="L2" instead of id="mcfarlane" etc.
  262. [18:36:38] <TantekC> same thing with t1615 - it could have simply been "slot4" or something abstract like that. just because it *looks* like data, don't assume that it is.
  263. [18:36:59] <TantekC> the actual data is only there *once*, in the respective <th>
  264. [18:38:42] <qid> TantekC: BTW, you broke that page
  265. [18:39:19] <DanC> but L1 and L2 are still data that have to be maintained
  266. [18:39:28] <qid> your last name causes "escaping malformed URI reference" warnings
  267. [18:40:11] <KevinMarks> whihc page?
  268. [18:40:20] <KevinMarks> http://weblog.burningbird.net/2006/02/02/a-story-of-cane-and-able-and-the-browser-that-rode-chariots/
  269. [18:40:56] <TantekC> qid, which page?
  270. [18:42:55] <qid> the program.cfm you were just talking about
  271. [18:43:05] <TantekC> Kevin is that yet-another-burningbird-url-that-has-nothing-to-do-with-microformats or am I missing something?
  272. [18:43:39] <qid> if I read RFC 2396 correctly (and if it's still normative), "&Ccedil;elik" would be a valid fragment identifier
  273. [18:43:44] <TantekC> qid, that page works just fine for me, in my browser(s), in iCal.app using the feeds.technorati.com link etc.
  274. [18:44:07] <TantekC> what application gave you an error?
  275. [18:44:34] <qid> Html Validator 0.7.7 firefox extension, and it's a warning, not an error
  276. [18:46:06] <TantekC> qid, W3C thinks it is fine: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwe05.com%2Fprogram.cfm&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&verbose=1
  277. [18:46:16] <TantekC> maybe that's a problem with the firefox extension
  278. [18:47:05] <qid> apparently it claims "&Ccedil;elik" as the fragment identifier is a malformed URI sequence, except I believe it is not according to the RFC
  279. [18:47:11] <KevinMarks> looks legit to me
  280. [18:47:37] <TantekC> then it is forgetting to do entity resolution on attribute values
  281. [18:47:40] <qid> however, the element they are trying to link to actually has an id of "celik", so the link is broken
  282. [18:47:42] <TantekC> that's a pretty big bug
  283. [18:47:56] <KevinMarks> well, it depends how it does it too
  284. [18:48:04] <TantekC> no it doesn't depend
  285. [18:48:09] <TantekC> you have to resolve the entities *first*
  286. [18:48:13] <TantekC> per HTML/SGML parsing rules
  287. [18:48:20] <TantekC> then you apply any attribute specific semantics
  288. [18:48:27] <TantekC> i.e. the fact that it is an href and thus a URL
  289. [18:48:58] <KevinMarks> if it does entity resolution into docunement encoding, then it can become awkward
  290. [18:50:48] * DanC recommends /TR/charmod to all ;-)
  291. [18:51:26] <qid> the warning references RFC 1738, which says nothing about fragment identifiers, although it does claim that the & and ; characters are reserved
  292. [18:51:54] <TantekC> qid, it shouldn't be trying to parse the & and ; as part of the URL - that's its bug
  293. [18:52:11] <qid> ah, ok
  294. [18:52:16] <TantekC> by the time it is trying to parse it as a URL, the HTML parser is supposed to have already resolve the character entity into a single character
  295. [18:52:54] <TantekC> anyway, back on topic
  296. [18:53:12] <TantekC> DanC, what do you think of your chances of adding hCalendar to that page and having it "stick"?
  297. [18:55:07] <DanC> not good, today, due to my own priorities and the volatility of the page. In a week or two, odds are better
  298. [18:55:35] <DanC> I can imagine coralie might be interested to learn how to do it
  299. [18:56:25] * DanC wanders off to an appointment
  300. [18:56:59] * TantekC will ping DanC about it in a week or two
  301. [19:04:49] <qid> TantekC: actually... I think that is in fact an error, as U+00C7 isn't one of the allowed characters in RFC 2396
  302. [19:06:11] <qid> it should have been URL-encoded, not turned into an entity
  303. [19:06:40] <KevinMarks> thats what I was getting at on order of resolution
  304. [19:06:55] <KevinMarks> in practice, lots of sites do have urls in doucment encoding
  305. [19:07:01] <KevinMarks> *document
  306. [19:07:17] <KevinMarks> but the %-escaped utf8 is a better way moving forward
  307. [19:07:18] <qid> I can't fathom why their page that claims to be UTF-8 doesn't just use UTF-8 characters, instead of turning them into entities
  308. [19:09:44] <qid> so perhaps they *are* resolving entities, and thus the warning is correct
  309. [19:11:35] <TantekC> if it is claiming that & and ; characters are reserved, then no, it is not resolving the entity
  310. [19:12:08] <TantekC> but Kevin is right, non-ASCII7 chars in URLs should be %escaped
  311. [19:12:41] <TantekC> (until we get to a version of HTML that uses IRIs)
  312. [19:12:48] <qid> it doesn't explicity say what it doesn't like
  313. [19:13:06] <TantekC> ah, ok, that was just your inference from RFC1738
  314. [19:13:32] <qid> but if it resolves &Ccedil; to the U+00C7 character, then it would indeed be a malformed URI, since that character needs to be %encoded
  315. [19:14:20] <KevinMarks> well, no, it weasels a bit on tht
  316. [19:14:37] <qid> this is slightly more difficult to explain without being able to paste the character in question
  317. [19:14:59] <TantekC> but then shouldn't be saying that "�..." as the fragment id is malformed rather than saying that "&Ccedil;..." as the fragment id is malformed?
  318. [19:15:08] <KevinMarks> http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3986.html is the canonical URL spec now
  319. [19:15:17] <KevinMarks> and it just says 'future URL tyeps'
  320. [19:15:19] <qid> it says "error: <...> escaping malformed URI reference"
  321. [19:15:57] <qid> "&Ccedil;elik" is a valid fragment identifier
  322. [19:16:47] <qid> if you resolve the entity to the actual unicode character C with little curly tail thingy, as far as I can tell the specs say that is invalid and should be encoded as %C7
  323. [19:21:22] <qid> if you wanted to use "&Ccedil;elik" as a fragment identifier, you would have to write it as "&amp;Ccedil;elik"
  324. [19:21:33] <KevinMarks> well, that is the question - that get to the browser's internal representtion, whcih is not instntiated until someone clicks on it and sends it to the host
  325. [19:27:03] <qid> to validate HTML, you have to resolve the entities. when you resolve the entity, you wind up with a URI that violates the RFCs. HTML 4.01 refers to the RFCs to define what a URI is.
  326. [19:27:42] * danja (i=DannyAye@host64-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  327. [19:28:14] <qid> it's not a significant issue, but it seems fairly clear to me that the document is thus not valid
  328. [19:29:07] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2434P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  329. [19:29:08] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  330. [19:29:31] <KevinMarks> robert, looking at your markup for the channel transcript
  331. [19:29:50] <KevinMarks> I liek it except that there is only an id per time, not per line
  332. [19:32:22] <RobertBachmann> yes that might be a problem in some cases. Other options?
  333. [19:36:37] <KevinMarks> maybe a monotonically increasing ID?
  334. [19:38:55] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  335. [19:40:30] <RobertBachmann> thought about a monotonic id back in november when I started hacking on LogBot, but timestamps looked nicer to me.
  336. [19:45:50] * robertbachman1 (n=RobertBa@M2434P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  337. [19:46:31] * robertbachman1 is now known as RobertBachman1
  338. [19:46:46] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2434P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  339. [19:47:01] * RobertBachman1 is now known as RobertBachmann
  340. [19:47:36] <RobertBachmann> s/monotonic id/monotonically increasing ID/
  341. [19:52:06] <RobertBachmann> maybe I could use "HHMMSS.SSS" instead of "HHMMSS". Of course I would need some naughty hack to ensure that ID's are unique: if (last_id == current_id) current_id += 0.001;
  342. [19:55:15] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  343. [19:55:15] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  344. [20:01:16] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
  345. [20:15:10] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) Quit ()
  346. [20:25:29] <KevinMarks> well, I'm thinking about a use case where this is dynmically updated by AHAH
  347. [20:25:58] <KevinMarks> so you'd effectively be passing an 'ack up to' back to the server
  348. [20:26:20] <KevinMarks> re the timestamps time of receipt? I forget in IRC
  349. [20:34:02] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  350. [20:46:44] <cks> RobertBachman: what would be lost if there were no unique id's on the chat events?
  351. [20:49:18] <KevinMarks> ability to reference, and the use case I mention
  352. [20:49:42] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4681 * DrErnie * (+960) Wiki-Thon Proposal
  353. [20:50:23] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4682 * DrErnie * (+0) Agenda (Wishlist) -
  354. [20:50:31] <Atamido> Anyone want to move to Texas and work with me?
  355. [20:50:41] <cks> i'm already in texas, and sort of want to move away
  356. [20:51:09] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2434P008.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  357. [20:51:11] <Atamido> :O
  358. [20:51:19] <Atamido> Are you in Austin?
  359. [20:51:44] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4683 * DrErnie * (+181) Wiki-Thon Proposal -
  360. [20:53:47] <cks> kevinmarks: well, hmm, querying for time ranges works too, right? as long as the edges are well defined, bad case would be duplicate stamps (which is legit) where you get the first of the duplicates on one query, then the duplicate time stamp comes in, then you do the next query and miss it. some sort of count param?
  361. [20:54:21] <KevinMarks> the case i'm thinking of is a dynamicly updated page
  362. [20:54:40] <KevinMarks> (I have doen soem of this with greg elin before)
  363. [20:55:09] <cks> unique id's in a mircoformat seem particularly evil, all sorts of authorability and scoping issues
  364. [20:55:33] <Atamido> Indeed.
  365. [20:55:34] <KevinMarks> what you want is the client to send an async HTTP request saying in effect 'I have everything up to id 1234'
  366. [20:56:00] <cks> kevinmarks: or.. i have everything up to timestamp 00:00:03, with 2 entries at that last time stamp
  367. [20:56:04] <KevinMarks> and the server can block until it sees somethign new, or return everythign from 1234 up to current
  368. [20:56:28] <cks> and the server can block until it sees something new, or return everything from 00:00:03 onwards (except the first 2)
  369. [20:56:33] <KevinMarks> this is why I'm asking who makes the timestamps
  370. [20:56:49] <KevinMarks> if the server does using arrival time, that works
  371. [20:57:12] <KevinMarks> if the senders timestamp and out-of order arrival is repaired in the client, it is different
  372. [20:57:24] <KevinMarks> nd I don't remeber how IRC works in that respect
  373. [20:58:06] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2493P006.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  374. [21:00:36] <cks> looks like mflogbot does it on the server
  375. [21:01:29] <cks> but i'm not sure that it matters
  376. [21:01:59] <RobertBachmann> cks: ">RobertBachman: what would be lost if there were no unique id's on the chat events?" ID's must be uniqe in (X)HTML
  377. [21:02:42] <cks> hmm, that is, what if there were no id's at all? i see that there's an issue with update protocols, anything else?
  378. [21:02:44] <KevinMarks> so timestamps aren't in the protocol, therefore clients are manufacturing them
  379. [21:03:02] <cks> there are many possible chat protocols
  380. [21:05:07] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  381. [21:05:15] <RobertBachmann> regarding timestamps: for mflogbot the date of the server is used. (Date now = new Date();)
  382. [21:05:15] <RobertBachmann> cks: If added the ID's because I wanted users to be able to link to a specific part of the chat log.
  383. [21:06:25] <cks> it means if you combine logs you have to regenerate all the id's, which is sort of hostile
  384. [21:06:45] <cks> also pretty much impossible to author by hand (although that might be less of an issue here?)
  385. [21:07:33] <KevinMarks> well, roberts IDs are derived from timestamps, so by hand isn't hard
  386. [21:07:40] <KevinMarks> though automation is esier
  387. [21:07:56] <cks> not if you're combining multiple streams that might have similiar timestamps
  388. [21:08:57] <cks> but... i suspect there are some good ways around the issues without forcing unique id's
  389. [21:10:55] <KevinMarks> well, roberts model works there, in that all with the same second shwo up at once
  390. [21:11:13] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  391. [21:11:17] <KevinMarks> when I did syncing irc to mp3's that was how I did it too.
  392. [21:11:31] <KevinMarks> realistically, a 1-second lag is OK
  393. [21:14:40] <cks> is the stuff you did synching irc to mp3's online? chrism said something about the infamous backchannel incident...
  394. [21:17:51] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=4684 * RyanKing * (+72) added netsquared
  395. [21:18:02] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=4685 * RyanKing * (+1) fixing typo
  396. [21:22:58] <cks> ok, so two reasons for unique ids: (1) makes some kinds of procotols easier to write and (2) people might want to refer to certain bits of the conversation via fragment identifiers
  397. [21:26:15] <cks> a couple of queries on the backend would do it for the protocol, even with retro-timestamps for some theoretical chat systems:
  398. [21:26:25] <cks> (a) give me this particular range, whatever you got at this point in time
  399. [21:26:38] <Atamido> I don't think this should be a part of the format.
  400. [21:26:49] <Atamido> There is way to big of a chance for collisions.
  401. [21:27:32] <cks> (b) give me some point in the past forward to the present, plus anything that came in "late" from the point backwards
  402. [21:27:47] <cks> yeah, and you don't need to for (1), i think
  403. [21:28:11] <cks> (2) is harder, because it really is a human-related thing
  404. [21:28:42] <cks> and a practical one, in that frag-id's are really the only way the browsers support to get inside the docs
  405. [21:28:58] <KevinMarks> cks: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2004_10_01_epeus_archive.html#109776385870386881
  406. [21:29:19] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-81-161-155.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  407. [21:30:26] <KevinMarks> well, if you can have out-of-order arrival, time range doesn't work
  408. [21:30:46] <cks> right, so you have a second query with slightly different semantics
  409. [21:30:56] <cks> and then it does
  410. [21:31:33] <KevinMarks> Atamido: I'm not saying it should be a MUST, but it is something useful, and worth formulating good practice at least
  411. [21:32:19] <cks> it's not needed for the protocol stuff, but the human-related "i want to link to that comment" thing is harder
  412. [21:33:16] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@67.188.37.174) has joined #microformats
  413. [21:35:57] <KevinMarks> well, it makes the protocol stuff easier to do in a DRY way, but there are otehr ways, yes
  414. [21:38:52] * TantekC (n=Tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  415. [21:41:28] <cks> unique id's suck unless there's some expectation that they're really identifying something unique in the universe, which doesn't seem to be the case for anything except maybe timestamp + nick + channel + server + hash-of-entire-comment
  416. [21:42:32] <cks> but circling around to the "want to reference bits of the conversation via a url", does that actually happen right now in practice?
  417. [21:42:54] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) Quit ()
  418. [21:44:42] <cks> hmm, the ILRT Bot RDF format spits out RDF:ID's
  419. [21:44:54] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  420. [21:45:11] <cks> which are just the timestamps
  421. [21:45:52] <cks> but rdf has well defined semantics for merging set of files with file-unique id's
  422. [21:55:54] <danja> what kind of conversation are you talking about?
  423. [21:56:08] * danja thinks of Purple Numbers
  424. [21:56:57] <danja> ah. IRC
  425. [22:01:00] <danja> the id's in :
  426. [22:01:07] <qid> pink numbers were better
  427. [22:01:31] <danja> <foaf:chatEvent rdf:ID="T00-14-11">
  428. [22:01:37] <danja> are in fact URIs
  429. [22:02:11] <danja> e.g. http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2006-02-02.rdf#T00-14-11
  430. [22:07:28] <cks> using the implicit base uri of the doc is kind of a hack (there's not a base uri specified explicitly in the example on the chat-formats page)
  431. [22:14:48] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  432. [22:17:21] <KevinMarks> no it isn't in the microformt context
  433. [22:17:30] <KevinMarks> URLs are globlly unique
  434. [22:18:16] <KevinMarks> so that whole issue is solved, and an id is defiend to be locally unique, so you re using both in their most natural way
  435. [22:18:39] <cks> using the implicit base uri in rdf is problematic, because if you move the document it changes, probably there should be an xml:base in there
  436. [22:19:09] <KevinMarks> well, thats because RDF likes URIs not URLs
  437. [22:30:10] * karlUshi (n=karl@sd1u209254.ocv.ne.jp) Quit ("Mooooo in another space")
  438. [22:33:00] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4686 * Chris Messina * (+87) Implied "FN and N" Optimization (proposal) -
  439. [22:33:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4687 * Chris Messina * (+13) Implied "FN and N" Optimization (proposal) -
  440. [22:35:56] <cks> anyway, the other thing it means is that you need to use a toolchain to merge documents, you can't just paste them together. that's ok for rdf, as it's expected, maybe not so good for microformats
  441. [22:37:03] <Atamido> I doubt there is a good way to create meaningful ID's that are surely unique, even within a single document..
  442. [22:37:18] <Atamido> Remember, ID's can't begin with a number.
  443. [22:37:51] <Atamido> And any writer becomes more complex if you have to ensure that two timecodes aren't the same.
  444. [22:40:02] <Atamido> (if you are using timecodes for the ID)
  445. [22:40:48] <cks> but, ok, that opens a question: if you'd like to point to part of a chat from the outside, what's a good way?
  446. [22:41:07] <cks> id in the doc, plus url#frag, is pretty slick...
  447. [22:42:30] <Atamido> Perhaps creating random 64bit IDs?
  448. [22:42:43] <Atamido> If you just need something to point at I mean.
  449. [22:43:13] <Atamido> "message-5f68a2e8
  450. [22:46:46] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
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  453. [22:55:11] <KevinMarks> rnadom is stupid
  454. [22:55:24] <KevinMarks> incrementing with each message is fine
  455. [22:55:40] <KevinMarks> timestamps have wrapping issues
  456. [22:56:14] <cks> datestamps would be appropriate then (can ignore wrapping issues for the purposes of the diiscussion :-) )
  457. [22:58:10] <cks> that is, they wrap at the end of the universe...
  458. [22:58:40] * danja (i=DannyAye@host64-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ("Ciao!")
  459. [23:05:13] * keithalexander (n=keithale@87.113.9.115.bbplus.pte-ag1.dyn.plus.net) has joined #microformats
  460. [23:18:27] * bluesmoon (n=bluesmoo@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ("Leaving")
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  462. [23:51:19] * blake (n=blake@dsl093-240-087.ral1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.