IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  2. [00:10:07] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  11. [00:19:23] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  28. [01:55:13] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4783 * Tantek * (+552) write-up started from Photo From Brainstorming Session
  29. [01:55:30] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4784 * Tantek * (+0) Writeup -
  30. [01:59:30] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4785 * Chris Messina * (+744) Service publishing of video -
  31. [02:00:36] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4786 * Chris Messina * (+39) Contributors -
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  35. [02:15:01] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  37. [02:23:58] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4787 * Chris Messina * (+583) Service publishing of photos -
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  42. [02:46:39] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4788 * Tantek * (+2716) more writeup from the brainstorming whiteboard photo
  43. [02:53:35] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4789 * Tantek * (+453) Field details -
  44. [02:57:21] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4790 * Tantek * (+242) Schema -
  45. [02:59:17] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4791 * Tantek * (+84) Photo From Brainstorming Session -
  46. [03:00:24] <tantek> cool. I believe I have written up the relevant contents from the hResume brainstorming session with James Levine of SimplyHired on the resume-brainstorming page. If you'd like to mark up your resume with microformats, take a look at current thinking: http://microformats.org/wiki/resume-brainstorming
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  48. [03:13:08] <tantek> bbiab
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  54. [04:18:44] <jibot> bewest is a student and has nebulous employment and owns siliconllama.com
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  68. [06:29:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  69. [07:15:26] <mfbot> [[blog-description-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-description-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4792 * Tantek * (+43) more "just use hAtom" specifics
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  73. [07:41:17] <mfbot> [[blog-info-formats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-info-formats * Tantek * (+1876) first draft
  74. [07:41:43] <mfbot> [[blog-info-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-formats&diff=0&oldid=4793 * Tantek * (+0) Formats -
  75. [07:44:29] <mfbot> [[blog-info-formats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-formats&diff=0&oldid=4794 * Tantek * (+98)
  76. [07:54:21] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-info-brainstorming * Tantek * (+963) first draft based on examples and formats
  77. [07:58:32] <KevinMarks> you thing 'fn' for a blog?
  78. [07:58:38] <KevinMarks> I thought that was a person thing
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  84. [08:40:00] <jibot> factoryjoe is Chris Messina, works for Flock, Bar Camp & Rhyzomatic & is working towards open source world domination & factorycityblug (http://factoryjoe.com/blog/) & looks like http://www.flickr.com/photos/dotben/70970770/
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  86. [08:51:18] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4795 * Chris Messina * (+657) Contributors -
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  88. [09:05:15] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  89. [09:05:15] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  92. [09:11:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  93. [09:11:35] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  94. [09:17:56] <tantek> 'fn' just means "formatted name" - as in, how you display the name of something
  95. [09:18:07] <tantek> vcard = person or organization
  96. [09:18:19] <tantek> vcard with fn==org -> organization
  97. [09:18:21] <tantek> else person
  98. [09:18:49] <tantek> 'fn' is essentially the building block we have in microformats for the name of something
  99. [09:20:06] <KevinMarks> ah, OK
  100. [09:20:10] <KevinMarks> seems
  101. [09:20:43] <KevinMarks> <title> is natural for the blog-description side
  102. [09:23:23] <tantek> it's close
  103. [09:23:41] <tantek> people use <title> to mean more than the name of the blog
  104. [09:23:50] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4796 * Kevin Marks * (+1217) XHTML Structure -
  105. [09:23:52] <tantek> e.g. they often prefix (or suffix) with the name of the site
  106. [09:23:55] <KevinMarks> eh?
  107. [09:24:07] <tantek> and they sometimes suffix with the date (e.g. Scripting News)
  108. [09:24:16] <KevinMarks> hm, true
  109. [09:24:20] <tantek> obviously the name of the site and the date are not part of the name of the blog
  110. [09:24:39] <tantek> thus <title> is not the name per se, though typically it *contains* the name
  111. [09:25:16] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4797 * Kevin Marks * (+42) Contributors -
  112. [09:25:28] <tantek> the suggestion for hAtom has been to use "fn" for the name of the hfeed
  113. [09:28:28] <tantek> hmm... I don't know about tags for blog-info
  114. [09:28:35] <tantek> at that point, there is no need to reinvent xFolk
  115. [09:29:03] <tantek> the blog-info-examples I have seen in the wild so far do not have tags, especially when seen in lists
  116. [09:31:22] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  117. [09:32:57] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4798 * Tantek * (+411) removed "tags" from code examples
  118. [09:36:26] <KevinMarks> I was following chris
  119. [09:36:32] <tantek> yep, noticed that
  120. [09:36:47] <KevinMarks> did nto liek his dl approach
  121. [09:37:21] <tantek> indeed
  122. [09:37:27] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  123. [09:37:35] <tantek> your explanation made sense
  124. [09:40:15] <KevinMarks> also there is class/rel contention there
  125. [09:40:21] <KevinMarks> DRY violation
  126. [09:40:29] <KevinMarks> rel="home" is a draft
  127. [09:41:09] <tantek> yes
  128. [09:41:27] <tantek> note that DRY refers to *content*, not markup
  129. [09:41:49] <KevinMarks> well, yes
  130. [09:43:10] <KevinMarks> but it is looking cluttered
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  135. [10:39:35] <mfbot> [[xoxo]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo&diff=0&oldid=4799 * Tantek * (+1799) added how to publish XOXO with two variants and notes on content-type
  136. [11:02:02] <trovster> Would <link rel="contents" be correct for the sitemap of the site?
  137. [11:05:16] * rav- (n=rav-@210.84.43.28) has joined #microformats
  138. [11:41:13] <tantek> seems reasonable
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  140. [12:02:18] <mfbot> [[blog-info-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-examples&diff=0&oldid=4800 * Tantek * (-73)
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  144. [12:22:27] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  153. [14:19:10] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  154. [14:44:02] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  155. [14:44:02] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  159. [15:11:25] <mfbot> [[blog-info-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4801 * Chris Messina * (+77) XHTML Structure -
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  161. [16:00:13] <jibot> Ragdoll is learning to use jibot
  162. [16:07:30] <Ragdoll> What happens if a vCard shows up twice for one person? Is this legal?
  163. [16:07:32] <Ragdoll> I have a conference brochure I'm working on, and one speaker has two lectures. Should I just use a vCard once, or is it okay to put it on both sets of information?
  164. [16:09:03] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N133P003.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  165. [16:09:03] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  166. [16:43:01] * Ragdoll is now known as Ragdoll2
  167. [16:44:20] * Ragdoll2 is now known as Ragdoll
  168. [16:55:54] <tantek> ok to put in both
  169. [16:56:05] <tantek> consuming applications (i.e. Address Book) will merge
  170. [16:56:15] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
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  173. [16:56:51] <dglazkov> can you reference an hcard?
  174. [16:57:36] <dglazkov> has this been discussed?
  175. [16:57:54] <dglazkov> suppose you have a page listing all members of a team
  176. [16:59:07] <dglazkov> then, whenever a member is mentioned in a post or comment, instead of emitting a full-blown hcard, can an hcard on the members page be referenced?
  177. [17:03:58] <dglazkov> also: anybody can recommend a good way to search uf-discuss list archives?
  178. [17:05:50] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-212-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  179. [17:06:46] <bewest|work> dglazkov: can't rdf do that?
  180. [17:06:57] <bewest|work> dglazkov: I guess that's something rdf can do that microformats can't?
  181. [17:07:49] <dglazkov> apples and oranges?
  182. [17:07:56] <dglazkov> rdf is a data model
  183. [17:08:39] * izo (n=izo@LNeuilly-152-23-33-39.w193-252.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
  184. [17:08:42] <dglazkov> microformats is a process of identifying commonly-used formats of semantic html
  185. [17:09:06] <bewest|work> ok
  186. [17:09:47] <dglazkov> IMHO rdf and semantic markup are not mutually exclusive
  187. [17:10:03] <dglazkov> but anyways :)
  188. [17:10:35] <dglazkov> what I am looking for is a good way to identify a hyperlink to an hcard
  189. [17:11:33] <bewest|work> I didn't say they were mutually exclusive... I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. I'm obviously having trouble seeing what areas overlap and what the possible consequences of such an overlap might be
  190. [17:11:52] <bewest|work> most _uses_ of rdf I see are almost the exact same as hcard
  191. [17:12:12] <dglazkov> sounds like you need a Crepes on Cole dinner w/microformatters :)
  192. [17:12:13] <bewest|work> including the examples the w3c offers
  193. [17:12:21] <bewest|work> oooOooo
  194. [17:12:26] <bewest|work> you people are in SF though
  195. [17:12:30] <bewest|work> if you ever come to NY lemme know
  196. [17:12:57] <dglazkov> actually I am in alabama. But I did get to eat semantic crepes once
  197. [17:13:05] <bewest|work> neato
  198. [17:13:11] <bewest|work> where in alambama?
  199. [17:13:14] <bewest|work> sheesh
  200. [17:13:15] <bewest|work> alabama
  201. [17:13:22] <dglazkov> birmingham
  202. [17:15:25] <RobertBachmann> regarding hatom: is it allowed to have <abbr class="updated published" title="...">...</abbr>?
  203. [17:15:56] <RobertBachmann> From looking at the opacity rules I would guess it is allowed, but I'm not sure.
  204. [17:17:30] <dglazkov> rdf is nothing but a data model. People keep thinking that the kewl xml markup they write in rdf namespace is RDF, but what they're doing is expressing it. It's similar to expressing a SQL table in Microsoft's DiffGram (XML vocabulary) and calling it relational data.
  205. [17:17:53] <dglazkov> which it is, but it's also much larger than that.
  206. [17:18:59] <bewest|work> I thought rdf was more analogous to a given record in a table
  207. [17:19:16] <bewest|work> since that is the metaphor w3 suggests
  208. [17:19:50] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4802 * RobertBachmann * (+46) Published as default value for atom:updated - +1
  209. [17:20:00] <dglazkov> brb after lunch -- let's continue discussion then?
  210. [17:20:49] <bewest|work> surely
  211. [17:21:09] * bewest|work gets lunch as well
  212. [17:35:58] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@c-69-181-81-22.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
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  217. [18:08:15] * KingDiamond (n=premshre@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  218. [18:13:17] <Ragdoll> What is the best way to use an hCard if someone is listed twice on a page?
  219. [18:14:08] * dglazkov is back
  220. [18:19:38] <dglazkov> do you guys think we need to take "what is RDF and how it compares to microformats?" discussion elsewhere? Is this off-topic?
  221. [18:20:00] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  222. [18:21:22] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=4803 * DrErnie * (+97) Entry Summary (atom:summary) -
  223. [18:24:11] * taare_ is now known as taare
  224. [18:24:28] * bewest|work shrugs
  225. [18:26:00] <dglazkov> :)
  226. [18:27:01] <dglazkov> just want to make sure we play nice
  227. [18:27:07] <bewest|work> yeah
  228. [18:27:42] <dglazkov> .. and since nobody ain't sayin' nuthin', we just keep on keeping on :)
  229. [18:27:50] <dglazkov> anyways
  230. [18:28:41] <dglazkov> imho, RDF data model is an extrapolation of a classic relational model (relational algebra)
  231. [18:28:44] <bewest|work> so the metaphor proposed by the w3 IIRC is that an rdf record is like a record in a db
  232. [18:28:55] <bewest|work> hmmm
  233. [18:29:01] <bewest|work> ok I may need to read up on that
  234. [18:29:11] <dglazkov> so, yes, rdf record can be viewed as a record in a table
  235. [18:29:42] <bewest|work> ok, well as far as the records themselves go
  236. [18:30:04] <dglazkov> in classic relational model, the nature of relationship is implied: A --> B
  237. [18:30:23] <dglazkov> in RDF, relationships are explicit A -- drinks --> B
  238. [18:30:31] <bewest|work> there seems to be quite a bit of redundancy in practice. rdf seems to be typically used for storing meta data similar to that stored in hcard
  239. [18:30:57] <bewest|work> except I suppose rdf also implies who and how that data applies to something else
  240. [18:31:07] <bewest|work> ok, the relational piece
  241. [18:31:21] <dglazkov> of course
  242. [18:31:23] <bewest|work> or maybe where and how
  243. [18:31:37] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  244. [18:31:40] <bewest|work> ok
  245. [18:31:41] <bewest|work> neat
  246. [18:32:22] <dglazkov> the reason for hcard is that of a format.
  247. [18:32:39] <bewest|work> so is it possible for rdf to reference an hcard?
  248. [18:33:01] <dglazkov> umm.. can I answer it with a question?
  249. [18:33:05] <bewest|work> jane -- is --> hcard
  250. [18:33:22] <dglazkov> is it possible for a SQL table to reference an hcard?
  251. [18:33:32] <bewest|work> hmm
  252. [18:33:43] <bewest|work> face value is no
  253. [18:33:51] <dglazkov> of course it's possible! :)
  254. [18:34:02] <dglazkov> you just define a field "hcard" and put a URL there :)
  255. [18:34:07] <bewest|work> yeah
  256. [18:34:16] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2500P027.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  257. [18:34:16] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  258. [18:34:44] <dglazkov> what I am trying to illustrate is that the question spans multiple problem domains
  259. [18:35:11] <dglazkov> RDF (and RDB) are data models, and hcard is a format :)
  260. [18:35:30] * dglazkov is struggling to express himself clearly
  261. [18:36:25] <dglazkov> the answer to your question is "yes", btw :)
  262. [18:36:27] <bewest|work> yeah
  263. [18:36:31] <bewest|work> ok
  264. [18:37:03] <bewest|work> well that bit about the problem domains is what I'm trying to understand, currently
  265. [18:37:16] <bewest|work> formats themselves are worthless without understanding what problem you're solving
  266. [18:37:19] <bewest|work> or what the problem is
  267. [18:37:51] <dglazkov> a lot of people are struggling with this. I see some very smart folks flick their noses at microformats and semantic markup because they don't understand the difference.
  268. [18:37:53] * trovster (n=tr-vs73r@blakesheen.demon.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  269. [18:37:53] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  270. [18:38:23] <bewest|work> dglazkov: I've been searching out TBL essays in hope of enlightenment of some kind
  271. [18:38:47] <dglazkov> if one does not see the value of semantic HTML, one can't grok microformats
  272. [18:38:53] <bewest|work> right
  273. [18:39:21] <bewest|work> I get microformats, but am trying to see beyond it
  274. [18:39:49] <bewest|work> and see some inconsistencies... like my confusion about rdf somehow competing with microformats
  275. [18:40:00] <bewest|work> the terrain is convoluted
  276. [18:40:33] <dglazkov> absolutely.
  277. [18:41:05] <bewest|work> the w3c documents are... not always helpful in seeking this kind of clarity
  278. [18:41:13] <dglazkov> i, for one, don't see how rdf can compete with microformats. If anything, microformats _are_ RDF
  279. [18:41:20] <KevinMarks> bewest|work: that is why we say 'start with a problem'
  280. [18:41:35] <dglazkov> at least, they are closer to RDF than classic relational model
  281. [18:41:38] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  282. [18:41:38] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  283. [18:41:38] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  284. [18:41:40] <KevinMarks> it's a bit like test-driven development
  285. [18:41:52] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit ("Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com")
  286. [18:41:58] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/process
  287. [18:42:09] * dglazkov corrects himself
  288. [18:42:36] * bewest|work has a problem with timesheets
  289. [18:43:07] <dglazkov> semantic markup is RDF. Microformats are a different problem domain entirely
  290. [18:43:41] <bewest|work> why is northwest airlines linked to at the bottom of that process page?
  291. [18:44:13] <dglazkov> 'cause in order to understand microformats process, you've gotta fly NWA
  292. [18:44:22] <dglazkov> damn spammers
  293. [18:44:44] <mfbot> [[process]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process&diff=0&oldid=4804 * RobertBachmann * (-120) Removed spam
  294. [18:51:44] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  295. [18:52:18] <Ragdoll> What is the best way to use an hCard if someone is listed twice on a page?
  296. [18:54:02] <bewest|work> Ragdoll: (12:00:00) tantek: ok to put in both
  297. [18:54:02] <bewest|work> (12:00:12) tantek: consuming applications (i.e. Address Book) will merge
  298. [18:54:18] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  299. [18:54:19] <bewest|work> Ragdoll: it's ok to put it twice on the page
  300. [18:54:21] <tantek> greetings
  301. [18:54:36] <dglazkov> hey Tantek
  302. [18:54:37] <tantek> yes
  303. [18:54:45] <Ragdoll> ah, thank you very much
  304. [18:54:47] <tantek> you should markup every instance of a person or organization as an hCard
  305. [18:54:47] <bewest|work> Ragdoll: it'll be up to the application that is consuming the data to take responsibility for not duplicating it's own internal data
  306. [18:54:57] <tantek> right bewest
  307. [18:55:05] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-1-222.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  308. [18:55:15] <bewest|work> anything else would be exceedingly complex
  309. [18:56:05] <bewest|work> although it would be interesting to send http 304 for embedded chunks of data, such as a given hcard
  310. [18:57:07] <dglazkov> what about linking to an hcard?
  311. [18:57:17] <Ragdoll> What happens, then, if the hCard has a slightly different name: (Dr. Bruce Fraedrich & Bruce Fraedrich); I suppose it'd create two different cards?
  312. [18:58:01] <tantek> you can mark those up explicitly with the "n" property which has sub properties for given-name, last-name, honorable-prefix etc.
  313. [18:58:26] <tantek> and consuming applications would be able to determine that they had the same given-name and family-name
  314. [18:58:30] <tantek> s/last-name/family-name
  315. [18:58:43] * tara (n=tara@64.16.21.10) has joined #microformats
  316. [18:58:43] <jibot> tara is Miss HorsePigCow (http://www.horsepigcow.com/) and the alter-ego of missrogue
  317. [18:59:10] <pnhChris> same thing that happens already.. i've had lots of cases wehre i've had to merge cards after, say, saving an email address from my mail client
  318. [18:59:12] <tantek> dglazkov, we have entertained some though to using rel="canonical" (a proposed microformat) to link from a "mini" or "abbreviated" hCard to a full / complete hCard
  319. [19:00:01] <tantek> more intelligent consuming applications could notice the rel="canonical", on the class="url" inside the mini-hCard and go fetch the canonical hCard which presumably would have more properties filled in etc.
  320. [19:00:46] * rawtext (n=tim@pool-68-160-9-178.bos.east.verizon.net) Quit ()
  321. [19:03:06] * tara (n=tara@64.16.21.10) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  323. [19:05:05] <RobertBachmann> Is there any VCARD to XML mapping?
  324. [19:05:39] <RobertBachmann> oh, found something: http://www.w3.org/TR/2001/NOTE-vcard-rdf-20010222/
  325. [19:06:32] <Ragdoll> Can logos be used in the "org" space? I'm looking at this in Tails and neither the alt nor title attributes come up; but I don't know if Tails just lacks this support.
  326. [19:09:21] <trovster> I do <h1><a href="/" rel="home" class="org">Organisation</a></h1>
  327. [19:10:07] <bewest|work> are hcards given uri's?
  328. [19:10:34] <bewest|work> I suppose that's what canonical would do
  329. [19:11:25] <Ragdoll> trovster: good idea.
  330. [19:11:38] <dglazkov> Tantek, I like it
  331. [19:11:45] <bewest|work> me too
  332. [19:13:21] <trovster> Ragdoll: :D
  333. [19:13:30] * RobertBachmann too
  334. [19:13:42] <trovster> I also run through all the text on a page, an replace Organisation with <strong class="org">Organistation</strong>
  335. [19:13:55] * tara (n=tara@64.16.21.10) Quit ()
  336. [19:14:06] <Ragdoll> trovster: hmm, that still doesn't show up
  337. [19:14:17] <trovster> Que?
  338. [19:16:09] <Ragdoll> The vcard is blank when I use an image for "org".
  339. [19:25:18] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  340. [19:25:19] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  341. [19:25:21] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  342. [19:30:30] <trovster> Ragdoll: I don't understand...
  343. [19:30:38] * edsu is now known as maisonbisson
  344. [19:31:05] * maisonbisson is now known as edsu
  345. [19:33:00] <Ragdoll> I put the "fn org" class on the image, but in Tails, nothing shows up. The vcard is blank. No first name, no organization.
  346. [19:33:02] <Ragdoll> <div class="vcard">
  347. [19:33:04] <Ragdoll> <a href="/" rel="home" class="" title="Organization"><img src="../graphics/nadf-logo-tan.png" width="200" height="29" alt="My Organization" title="My Organization" class="fn org" /></a>
  348. [19:33:05] <Ragdoll> </div>
  349. [19:33:51] <trovster> Well, I don't know why... Also, I use image-replacement for headings like that.
  350. [19:34:01] <trovster> Maybe it doesn't take the alt="" or title=""
  351. [19:34:15] <trovster> How about adding it to the anchor, instead?
  352. [19:39:10] <Ragdoll> I've tried that as well.
  353. [19:39:11] <Ragdoll> Maybe it's perfect and something is wrong with the interpreter.
  354. [19:39:28] <Ragdoll> I just wanted to make sure I wasn't doing something wrong myself.
  355. [19:40:01] <Ragdoll> trovster: What do you mean by "image-replacement"?
  356. [19:40:26] <mfbot> [[Template:SemanticXHTMLDesignPrinciples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:SemanticXHTMLDesignPrinciples&diff=0&oldid=4805 * RyanKing * (+6) entity encoding
  357. [19:41:04] <bewest|work> Ragdoll: use css to put present the image insteaad of the text inside a given tag
  358. [19:41:07] <trovster> <h1><a href="">org</a></h1> then CSS to add the logo
  359. [19:41:32] <mfbot> [[semantic-xhtml-design-principles]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml-design-principles&diff=0&oldid=4806 * RyanKing * (-2159)
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  361. [19:41:59] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  362. [19:41:59] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  363. [19:42:09] * _TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@dsl081-056-047.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  364. [19:43:21] <pnhChris> seems prettry far to go to get something like that working, no?
  365. [19:43:30] <pnhChris> pretty*
  366. [19:44:33] <Ragdoll> trovster: do you have a live example of what you are suggesting?
  367. [19:46:05] <pnhChris> Ragdoll: google sifr for a start
  368. [19:46:16] <trovster> Well, not necessarily sifr.
  369. [19:46:19] <trovster> I use Phark.
  370. [19:46:45] <pnhChris> yes
  371. [19:46:47] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-1-222.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  372. [19:46:57] <pnhChris> it was just the first example i could think of
  373. [19:48:08] <trovster> <h1><a href="/" class="org fn" rel="home">Organisation Name</a><h1> h1 a {display: block; text-indent: -9999px; height: 50px; width: 250px; background: url(path/to/logo.png) no-repeat 0 0;}
  374. [19:49:20] <pnhChris> is the goal to get the logo image picked up as well Ragdoll ?
  375. [19:50:22] * pnhChris wonders if org img is part of the spec
  376. [19:50:35] <trovster> Don't see why it can't use the alt="" or even the title=""
  377. [19:50:47] <Ragdoll> Not necessarily. I wanted the logo to be viewable by humans, and the replacement text to be viewable by machines.
  378. [19:51:05] <trovster> Phark Ir then.
  379. [19:51:48] <Ragdoll> I'll give it a whack.
  380. [19:51:50] <pnhChris> still seems like an ugly solution
  381. [19:51:55] <pnhChris> ultimately
  382. [19:52:04] <Ragdoll> agreed.
  383. [19:52:20] <kingryan> pnhChris, yeah org's can have logos
  384. [19:52:27] <kingryan> if you have an org hcard
  385. [19:53:23] <pnhChris> seems to me you should be able to pull either the title or the alt as the org name and the src as the logo image
  386. [19:54:09] * TheMaecenati (n=TheMaece@adsl-71-132-212-69.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net) Quit (Connection timed out)
  387. [19:54:10] <pnhChris> so you don't have to deal with css replacement.. or hidden elements with display:none; or other remedies
  388. [19:54:23] <trovster> Ragdoll: I'm using phark on this site for the title (and the navigation) http://multipack.trovster.com/
  389. [19:54:41] <trovster> pnhChris: Phark doesn't user display: none;
  390. [19:54:50] <pnhChris> i understand
  391. [19:54:58] <pnhChris> just thinking of other alternatives
  392. [19:54:59] * bluesmoon (n=bluesmoo@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  393. [19:54:59] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  394. [19:55:26] <pnhChris> if you wanted BOTH the logo and the company name you might have to use another element in your markup and then hide it in some way
  395. [19:55:42] <tantek> folks, for <img> tags that are classed with class names for text properties (like fn), hCard parsers use the "alt" attribute, per http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing
  396. [19:55:51] <tantek> if you find an hCard parser that doesn't do that, please report it as a bug
  397. [19:56:08] <tantek> chris, you can do it with one two elements
  398. [19:56:24] * cee-dub (n=cee-dub@adsl-71-132-1-222.dsl.sntc01.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  399. [19:56:31] <tantek> <span class="vcard"><img class="fn org logo" src="logo.png" alt="MyCompany Inc." /></span>
  400. [19:56:50] <pnhChris> tantek: rgr... just following the initial line of conversation here.. which i guess got off on the wrong foot
  401. [19:56:57] <tantek> per hcard-parsing, the 'src' is used for the logo, and the 'alt' is used for the fn and org
  402. [19:56:57] <trovster> I prefer using an image-replacement technique for my headings like that. But I see the argument for both way.
  403. [19:58:57] <pnhChris> Ragdoll: so, where were you failing when you attempted this before?
  404. [20:00:10] <trovster> That site I posted has vevent, vcards and rel="home"
  405. [20:02:54] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  406. [20:03:34] <Ragdoll> So I guess I'll send a bug report to the maker of Tails and tell him <img>'s don't use their alt text at all.
  407. [20:04:06] <Ragdoll> pnhChris: Tails doesn't show the alt text at all.
  408. [20:07:19] <dglazkov> trovster: I am a big fan of IR, but in this case img is the right thing to do.
  409. [20:07:34] <trovster> "this case" ... which is?
  410. [20:07:54] <dglazkov> logo = content. It can't be represented by text without losing information
  411. [20:08:39] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4807 * RyanKing * (+315) Format - added summary example
  412. [20:12:40] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4808 * PigsOTWing * (+1297) Use in tables (my first edit!)
  413. [20:12:42] <factoryjoe> Tantek: get this
  414. [20:12:43] <factoryjoe> http://pod-serve.com/podcasts/feed/barcampdallas
  415. [20:12:50] <factoryjoe> the list of presos from bar camp dallas
  416. [20:13:00] <factoryjoe> we want people to add their presos as links...
  417. [20:13:06] <factoryjoe> (podcasts)
  418. [20:13:11] <factoryjoe> which makes sense as a wiki page
  419. [20:13:33] <factoryjoe> ...which, if we had hPlaylist -- could then be editted safely and then pumped out as a feed...!
  420. [20:13:53] <factoryjoe> so... wikis are apparently a great use for mFs
  421. [20:13:57] <factoryjoe> ok, i'm done
  422. [20:13:59] <factoryjoe> lunch time
  423. [20:19:43] <bluesmoon> I have a question about hreview specific to my restaurant reviews
  424. [20:20:35] <bluesmoon> in my case, I don't have specific ratings for the restaurants, but use terms like
  425. [20:21:10] <bluesmoon> 'leaves your wallet empty', 'affordable', 'won't notice the price', etc.
  426. [20:21:31] <bluesmoon> does it make sense to map these to numbers that can be placed into the hreview?
  427. [20:21:32] <kingryan> bluesmoon, those can just be tags
  428. [20:21:48] <kingryan> no need to introduce artificial numbers
  429. [20:22:00] <bluesmoon> okay, but introducing the numbers makes it sortable right?
  430. [20:22:41] <kingryan> yeah, I suppose
  431. [20:23:45] <kingryan> factoryjoe, you still around?
  432. [20:32:07] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4809 * RyanKing * (+668) added hcard example
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  435. [20:35:31] <dglazkov> bluesmoon, imho your rating system is very much numeric. You just use different names for numbers
  436. [20:35:40] <dglazkov> so, numbers make good sense for this
  437. [20:36:47] <dglazkov> btw, that's for RDF nerds out there. The next iteration of data model: weighted explicitly identified relationships. Heavy crap
  438. [20:37:21] <bluesmoon> dglazkov, that's right, but i'm unable to come up with a good numbering system because i haven't defined all the tags yet
  439. [20:37:39] <bluesmoon> i make up new ratings with every review i write
  440. [20:37:50] <bluesmoon> it's completely based on a gut feeling that I get
  441. [20:38:54] <dglazkov> then maybe your made up ratings aren't the quantifiable ratings. Maybe you need to have both: the euphemistic summary and star rating.
  442. [20:39:05] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  443. [20:39:27] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  444. [20:39:43] <bluesmoon> dglazkov, i think i get you, i'm just not sure i get myself
  445. [20:40:27] <dglazkov> here's an example:
  446. [20:40:45] <dglazkov> Dreamland BBQ
  447. [20:41:11] <dglazkov> summary: "easy on the wallet, unforgettable experience"
  448. [20:41:19] <dglazkov> rating: *****
  449. [20:41:52] <bluesmoon> ok
  450. [20:42:38] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4810 * RyanKing * (+371) added education example
  451. [20:46:26] <Ragdoll> Yeah, if you're associating a star number with a review, it seems like it would stand on its own.
  452. [20:46:53] <bluesmoon> i do have a single overall rating
  453. [20:46:59] <bluesmoon> which would easily map to a number
  454. [20:47:08] <bluesmoon> but i have other dimensions as well
  455. [20:47:09] <Ragdoll> You could rate different aspects of it:
  456. [20:47:11] <Ragdoll> service: **
  457. [20:47:12] <Ragdoll> taste: ***
  458. [20:47:13] <Ragdoll> atmosphere: *****
  459. [20:47:15] <Ragdoll> average: ***
  460. [20:47:15] <bluesmoon> food, price, service, ambience
  461. [20:47:26] <bluesmoon> but i don't give them stars
  462. [20:47:42] <bluesmoon> i give them textual ratings based on how it makes me feel
  463. [20:48:02] <Ragdoll> Then I don't think associating them with a number is going to help anyone.
  464. [20:48:04] <bluesmoon> and while i can qualify my feeling, i can't quantify it
  465. [20:48:42] <bluesmoon> i could give it broad ratings like good, bad and okay, but that's lossy
  466. [20:49:16] <Ragdoll> Otherwise others will glance at your number, say 1, and think it's a bad restaurant, when actually it's supposed to mean: won't break the bank.
  467. [20:53:43] <DanC> I'm re-doing the list of DAWG members... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/#who ... was using IATA codes, but thinking about just using lat/long now...
  468. [20:54:06] <DanC> was wondering what people use for the visible part of lat/long, but the 1st example I find is:
  469. [20:54:12] <DanC> <span class="geo">
  470. [20:54:12] <DanC> <abbr class="latitude" title="34.027864">
  471. [20:54:12] <DanC> </abbr>
  472. [20:54:12] <DanC> <abbr class="longitude" title="-84.360165">
  473. [20:54:12] <DanC> </abbr>
  474. [20:54:13] <DanC> </span>
  475. [20:54:20] <DanC> -- http://blog.codeeg.com/about
  476. [20:54:37] <bluesmoon> DanC, use the degrees/minutes notation
  477. [20:54:52] <bluesmoon> for the visible part
  478. [20:54:56] <DanC> yuk
  479. [20:56:26] <DanC> why is the CSS citation on http://www.microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing informative? the text seems to use the .vcard CSS selector mechanism normatively
  480. [20:56:44] <bluesmoon> DanC, set the display property to none
  481. [20:56:44] <DanC> ah... "just as"
  482. [20:56:59] <DanC> display none is visible data?!?
  483. [20:57:09] <bluesmoon> nope
  484. [20:57:27] <bluesmoon> then you don't have to worry about ugliness of the data
  485. [20:57:44] <bluesmoon> i really can't think of anything better than the actual values
  486. [20:58:20] <DanC> not city names or airport names?
  487. [20:58:26] <DanC> or a (map) link?
  488. [20:59:07] <bluesmoon> DanC, you'd need two coordinates to get to a single city/airport
  489. [20:59:33] <bluesmoon> but in the case of this mf, you've got two separate values, each of which needs a visible representation
  490. [20:59:52] <DanC> two coordinates... hmm... that seems like a bug in hCard. it's one property in vcard
  491. [21:00:20] <bluesmoon> geo is used only to specify lat/lon
  492. [21:00:32] <DanC> yes, but never lat alone nore long alone
  493. [21:00:46] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  494. [21:00:47] <bluesmoon> correct
  495. [21:00:54] <kingryan> danc, in vcard, geo is a list of 2 values
  496. [21:01:04] <kingryan> for clarity, its broken out into two values in hcard
  497. [21:01:15] <bluesmoon> but within geo, lat and lon are defined as separate items
  498. [21:01:27] <kingryan> yes
  499. [21:01:30] <bluesmoon> and each needs a separate visible representation
  500. [21:01:37] <DanC> I'm aware of the facts of the matter. I consider it a bug in hCard
  501. [21:01:46] <kingryan> hmm, ok
  502. [21:01:50] <bluesmoon> i'd agree
  503. [21:01:55] <DanC> no, each does not need separate visible representation
  504. [21:02:03] <kingryan> you'd prefer the semicolon seperated list?
  505. [21:02:06] <bluesmoon> well, you have an <abbr> tag, which is a container
  506. [21:02:18] <DanC> space-separated works for me
  507. [21:02:23] <bluesmoon> and needs something contained within it
  508. [21:03:15] <kingryan> danc, you've got a good point, they're never expressed on their own
  509. [21:03:24] * _psychic_ (n=john@71.32.228.156) Quit ()
  510. [21:04:51] <kingryan> and, I think, they're *always* in the same order, right?
  511. [21:05:41] <DanC> yes
  512. [21:05:51] <DanC> let's see... here's what I used for my XML 2005 talk:
  513. [21:05:52] <bluesmoon> is that specified in the microformat?
  514. [21:05:53] <DanC> <abbr class="geo" title="30.266656,-97.744650">
  515. [21:05:53] <DanC> <a href=
  516. [21:05:53] <DanC> "http://maps.google.com/local?q=Alamo+Drafthouse%2C+Austin%2C+Texas&amp;btnG=Search&amp;sll=30.266656%2C-97.744650&amp;sspn=0.018570%2C0.039053&amp;f=q&amp;hl=en&amp;latlng=30266944,-97742778,338806731981789968">Google
  517. [21:05:55] <DanC> Maps</a></abbr>
  518. [21:06:17] <kingryan> bluesmoon, what are you refering to?
  519. [21:06:24] <bluesmoon> the lat/lon in geo
  520. [21:06:36] <kingryan> what about it?
  521. [21:06:39] <bluesmoon> are they always latitude,longitude
  522. [21:06:46] <kingryan> it is in vcard
  523. [21:06:48] <bluesmoon> or can they be longitude latitude?
  524. [21:06:54] <bluesmoon> okay
  525. [21:07:14] <kingryan> plus, I don't think anyone ever writes long then lat
  526. [21:09:34] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-187-246.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  527. [21:10:26] <bluesmoon> kingryan, the google maps API does
  528. [21:10:41] <bluesmoon> IIRC
  529. [21:10:43] <bluesmoon> let me check
  530. [21:11:03] <bluesmoon> yup: var point = new GPoint(lon,lat);
  531. [21:11:20] <kingryan> wow
  532. [21:11:21] <bluesmoon> OTOH: var point = new YGeoPoint(lat,lon);
  533. [21:11:21] <kingryan> ok
  534. [21:11:34] <DanC> wow indeed
  535. [21:11:42] <kingryan> I'd call that ridiculous
  536. [21:11:46] <bluesmoon> the two APIs are almost identical except for these subtleties
  537. [21:12:06] <bluesmoon> it threw me off at first, because google local's urls have coords in lat,lon
  538. [21:12:21] <bluesmoon> and i was throwing that into the API and getting thrown into the arctic
  539. [21:12:30] <bluesmoon> when i expected to be in india
  540. [21:12:37] <bluesmoon> or something like that
  541. [21:13:04] <KevinMarks> well, url params aren't formally ordered
  542. [21:13:13] <bluesmoon> KevinMarks, the url param is ll
  543. [21:13:16] <jibot> AlthA is our resident testcase maker extraordinare and an all-purpose bugzilla majordomo and living in Nijmegen, The Netherlands
  544. [21:13:17] <bluesmoon> which is lat,lon
  545. [21:13:25] <bluesmoon> ll=lat,lon
  546. [21:13:38] <KevinMarks> aha
  547. [21:14:10] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4811 * PigsOTWing * (-2) References - fix header depth
  548. [21:15:41] * KevinMarks still wants a 'radius of interest' parameter instead off all these per-implemention zoom ones
  549. [21:16:22] <bluesmoon> KevinMarks, doesn't radius of interest also depend on screen size?
  550. [21:16:33] <bluesmoon> or viewport size
  551. [21:17:02] <KevinMarks> not if you express it in meters on the ground
  552. [21:17:49] <bluesmoon> KevinMarks, but to translate that to a zoom value, you need to know how many pixels that maps to
  553. [21:18:21] <bluesmoon> a 500m radius on 800x600 is far less detailed than the same on 1400x1280
  554. [21:18:35] <bluesmoon> IIRMRC
  555. [21:18:39] <kingryan> yeah, bluesmoon, but google and yahoo can do that
  556. [21:18:45] <KevinMarks> of course
  557. [21:19:01] <KevinMarks> but if I am talking about the city of san jose versus my back yard
  558. [21:19:07] <KevinMarks> the radius is helpful
  559. [21:20:11] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4812 * PigsOTWing * (+1) Use in tables - date fix
  560. [21:20:24] <bluesmoon> I understand
  561. [21:20:42] <bluesmoon> so if you maximise your window
  562. [21:20:46] <bluesmoon> it would zoom in
  563. [21:20:51] <bluesmoon> rather than expand the map
  564. [21:20:59] <KevinMarks> yes
  565. [21:21:02] <bluesmoon> ok
  566. [21:21:17] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4813 * RyanKing * (+257) Education - adding experience example
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  579. [23:00:22] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=4814 * Ant * (+563) add Who else offers MD5/SHA-1 checksums with software
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  583. [23:27:59] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=4815 * Ant * (+372) Who else offers MD5/SHA-1 checksums with software -
  584. [23:31:40] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=4816 * Ant * (+112) Who else offers MD5/SHA-1 checksums with software -
  585. [23:40:21] <mfbot> [[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=4817 * Ant * (+164) Who offers MD5/SHA-1 checksums with software -
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  588. [23:47:12] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4818 * RyanKing * (-219) changed hcard to be required
  589. [23:48:38] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4819 * RyanKing * (+1) Experience -
  590. [23:52:26] * kingryan_ is now known as kingryan
  591. [23:52:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  592. [23:56:09] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4820 * RyanKing * (+46) Field details - added note about using hcards for job titles
  593. [23:57:36] <mfbot> [[job-listing-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=job-listing-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4821 * MikeSiekkinen * (+43) Fields from examples -
  594. [23:58:07] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4822 * RyanKing * (+5) Field details -
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