IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:20] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  2. [00:13:46] <tantek> pnhChris, qid, regarding the whole parsers/ambiguitiy issue, please see http://microformats.org/wiki/mfo-examples
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  4. [00:15:33] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  8. [00:55:56] <pnhChris> Tantek: thanks.. that has most of my concerns accounted for.. though i can certainly think of cases where i wouldn't necessarily want something opaque
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  10. [01:03:56] <pnhChris> dunno what the resolution there is aside from simply not reusing elements
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  18. [01:50:54] <tantek> chris, we actually *want* to reuse elements, so we have to come up with such opacity rules, either per format, or a more general solution like "mfo"
  19. [01:51:26] <tantek> though my architectural hat says the mfo solution is the way to go, I've been resisting it because it doesn't follow any particular microformat need itself
  20. [01:51:34] <tantek> human-based microformat need that is
  21. [01:52:02] <tantek> it may turn out that we need mfo as just a bit of structural support, just as we have xmdp to formally define microformat vocabularies
  22. [01:53:05] <tantek> qid and pnhChris, I'd very much like to hear your thoughts on mfo. feel free to comment on the mfo-examples page and I'll figure out how to organize the content
  23. [01:53:51] <bewest> mfo?
  24. [01:58:55] <pnhChris> i'll have to think about it
  25. [01:59:36] * bewest found url
  26. [01:59:57] <pnhChris> my concern is the cases again of embedding microformats in long form text passages and the potential need to overlap formats
  27. [02:00:08] <pnhChris> but i can't think of a case that already isn't a problem
  28. [02:00:29] <pnhChris> or would really be a problem
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  34. [02:19:05] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
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  55. [03:55:11] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  59. [04:04:33] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  61. [04:08:23] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4847 * Rohit * (+47) Exploratory discussions -
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  63. [04:09:09] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-proposal * Rohit * (+16413)
  64. [04:10:05] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-feedback * Rohit * (+7275)
  65. [04:10:56] <mfbot> [[hListing Extended Examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hListing_Extended_Examples * Rohit * (+8979)
  66. [04:11:42] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=4848 * Rohit * (+20) Challenge Problems -
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  68. [04:12:33] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-challenges * Rohit * (+3038)
  69. [04:13:14] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4849 * Rohit * (+0)
  70. [04:16:40] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=4850 * Rohit * (+27) Extended Examples -
  71. [04:18:06] <mfbot> [[hlisting-extended-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-extended-examples * Rohit * (+9108)
  72. [04:22:07] <mfbot> [[hListing Extended Examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hListing_Extended_Examples&diff=0&oldid=4851 * Rohit * (-8912)
  73. [04:24:53] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=4852 * Rohit * (+14) Exploratory discussions -
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  77. [04:29:00] <jibot> _fil_ is co-author of SPIP (www.spip.net) and works on implementing microformats in it
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  82. [05:05:23] <jibot> _fil_ is co-author of SPIP (www.spip.net) and works on implementing microformats in it
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  90. [05:25:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  91. [05:36:26] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=4853 * Rohit * (-4) Schema -
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  96. [06:14:13] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=4854 * Rohit * (+80) Schema -
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  110. [06:57:00] <jibot> KevinMarks is a writer of code, limericks, weblogs & syllepses & his blog is at http://epeus.blogspot.com & he explains how to get Creators paid at http://mediagora.com & originally from London, UK & living in Willow Glen, San Jose, CA & working at Technorati & is WikipediaWorthy & part of http://microformats.org & PST (UTC-8) & also in every time zone ever created, for KevinMarks is everpresent & the Podfather
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  112. [07:12:36] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4855 * Rohit * (+0) Structured CFP -
  113. [07:16:32] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=4856 * Rohit * (-1) Simple Listing -
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  116. [07:30:58] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  117. [07:35:24] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4857 * Rohit * (+4) Minimal Classified Ad -
  118. [07:39:35] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4858 * Rohit * (+4) hListing Challenge Problems -
  119. [07:40:01] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4859 * Rohit * (+18) hListing Challenge Problems -
  120. [07:42:02] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4860 * Rohit * (+223) '''Desire to Inherit Context''' -
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  122. [08:00:28] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4861 * Rohit * (+425) Donations -
  123. [08:07:00] <mfbot> [[hlisting-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4862 * Rohit * (+0) Default Action -
  124. [08:07:21] <mfbot> [[hlisting-challenges]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-challenges&diff=0&oldid=4863 * Rohit * (-6) Minimal Classified Ad -
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  135. [09:31:43] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  150. [13:07:09] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4864 * Singpolyma * (+52)
  151. [13:10:10] <mfbot> [[rel-tag-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-faq&diff=0&oldid=4865 * Singpolyma * (+143)
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  153. [13:33:50] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  154. [13:36:35] * bluesmoon (n=bluesmoo@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  155. [13:36:35] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  156. [13:43:55] * premshree_ (n=premshre@nat-fw.bangalore.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  157. [13:44:35] <bluesmoon> good morning premshree_
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  159. [13:57:45] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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  164. [15:05:14] <dglazkov> has anybody bugged Google on making this a xoxo list?
  165. [15:05:21] <dglazkov> http://www.google.com/webmasters/sitemaps/docs/en/protocol.html
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  168. [15:33:33] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  189. [17:53:54] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  195. [18:47:10] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  196. [19:19:01] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4866 * RyanKing * (+32)
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  198. [19:22:20] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
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  200. [19:23:31] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  205. [19:59:06] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  208. [20:09:17] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  209. [20:13:39] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4867 * RyanKing * (+0) Basic -
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  216. [21:30:38] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq&diff=0&oldid=4869 * Tantek * (+83)
  217. [21:31:14] <tantek> pnhChris re: the potential need to overlap formats
  218. [21:31:19] <tantek> that's whole point of mfo
  219. [21:31:22] <tantek> to make it explicit
  220. [21:31:27] <tantek> so that the content author can choose
  221. [21:31:38] <tantek> whether something is "opaque" or "overlapping"
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  224. [21:54:00] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4870 * RyanKing * (+29)
  225. [21:54:35] <pnhChris> like i mentioned last night, i'd just like to sit on it for a bit and see if i can come up with any real scenarios that wouldn't fit thsoe cases
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  228. [21:56:18] <pnhChris> Tantek: i keep going back to the case of embedding formats in long form writing... and thinking there's gotta be some gotchas there
  229. [21:58:03] <pnhChris> essentially blowing out the example drew used 10x and seeing a need for cases of locations, events, relationships etc. all defined while you have one or more page wide or content wide tags already open.. http://24ways.org/advent/practical-microformats-with-hcard
  230. [22:01:46] <tantek> yes, that should be fine
  231. [22:02:36] <tantek> the idea is, we can both have formats explicitly define their opacity (e.g. hCard needs to do this with the "agent" property which itself is an hCard)
  232. [22:02:47] <tantek> (but we should keep that to a minimum in general)
  233. [22:02:56] <tantek> and then, we also have "mfo" to allow for explicit opacity
  234. [22:03:10] <tantek> so you could have an hentry overlap with an hreview, or not
  235. [22:03:25] <tantek> depending on the content authors choice
  236. [22:03:58] <pnhChris> yeah.. i just want to try and break it.. but i don't have the time right now, maybe later in the week
  237. [22:04:15] <pnhChris> things like sharing locations or summaries
  238. [22:04:30] <pnhChris> or really odd nestings
  239. [22:08:26] <pnhChris> "john doe shares his house with his wife jane and their two dogs, in addition to this site he writes books about xml and microformats and produces event xyz in nyc"
  240. [22:08:37] <pnhChris> got events, tags, 2 hcards
  241. [22:08:43] <pnhChris> etc.etc.
  242. [22:09:08] <pnhChris> location shared between 3 of them
  243. [22:09:17] <pnhChris> with unrelrated tags in the middle
  244. [22:10:59] <pnhChris> .. and then you come up with a pet microformat 9 months after publication
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  246. [22:14:53] <pnhChris> a bit extreme, but broaden the passage to a full page biography and its more likely to happen
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  251. [22:30:55] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  252. [22:42:35] <tantek> pnhChris - sounds like a theoretical edgecase :)
  253. [22:43:30] <tantek> let's get the simple cases to work well that actually reflect what people are publishing on the web today
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  256. [23:06:18] <KevinMarks> also it degrades gracefully - the page (which is a natural unit on the web) is about all those things
  257. [23:06:28] <pnhChris> i hear where you're coming from .. thats why i need to sit on it and see if there are any simpler cases that come out of that
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  267. [23:44:32] <jibot> karlUshi is karlcow
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  269. [23:53:18] <DanC> Dom just added hCard markup to the W3C team internal phone list. :)
  270. [23:54:48] <DanC> a wish for vcards hit the mailing list at 20:13 +0100 and Dom granted it at 00:32:29 +0100
  271. [23:55:02] <DanC> granted it using hCard markup, that is

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