IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-09
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:45:55] <mfbot>
[[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=4871 * RyanKing * (-7) Normative References - fixed rel-tag link
- [00:46:46] <mfbot>
[[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=4872 * RyanKing * (-110) Draft Specification - collapsed redundant editor and authors sections
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- [01:03:38] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [01:03:53] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4873 * Tantek * (+214) Goals -
- [01:04:09] <mfbot>
[[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=4874 * Tantek * (+16) Goals -
- [01:04:45] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=4875 * GrantYoung * (+122) added WWF-Australia examples
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[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=4876 * GrantYoung * (+79) Added WWF-Australia example
- [01:12:38] <tantek>
DanC, that's awesome. Now how about the plenary page? http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html
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- [01:45:08] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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- [01:55:03] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [01:59:15] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [03:18:02] <TantekC>
greetings
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- [03:18:27] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
- [03:20:57] <TantekC>
greetings
- [03:21:10] <TantekC>
@SDForum Search Sig on Classifieds
- [03:21:26] <TantekC>
do people mind if I take notes here from the SIG?
- [03:21:53] <_psychic_>
go for it
- [03:22:05] <TantekC>
first question was...
- [03:22:10] <TantekC>
What are classifieds?
- [03:22:36] <TantekC>
Google/Bindu - online advertising and classified advertising are becoming the same
- [03:22:55] <TantekC>
Oodle/Craig - disagree. Very different kinds of things. Very different behaviors.
- [03:23:53] <TantekC>
Bindu - when you type stuff into a search box, it should give you all the matching things, whether classified, or on sale somewhere etc.
- [03:27:25] <TantekC>
Keith Teare: Classifieds online are growing very fast, whereas classifieds offline (newspapers) are not growing at all.
- [03:28:02] <TantekC>
Craig: classifieds business model is shifting. Change is being held back by companies that are extremely scared. A lot of people make a lot of money from classifieds.
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- [03:29:21] <TantekC>
Craig: I thought that Craigslist was going to be the forcing function for change. But outside the bay area, it's only really taken business from other classifieds.
- [03:29:34] <TantekC>
Craig: Forcing function will probably be Google because of Adsense.
- [03:29:57] <TantekC>
Craig: This is going to be a very big year in terms of classifieds, business model shifting.
- [03:30:15] <TantekC>
Bindu: In general if you think about classifieds, the most important thing to focus on is local, and the second is social interaction.
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- [03:33:19] <TantekC>
Craig: Are classifieds going to be free? Classifieds are already free. What you're paying for is delivery of leads.
- [03:33:42] <TantekC>
Craig: Need to change mindset: how am I getting prospects rather than just eyeballs.
- [03:38:09] <TantekC>
Bindu: How many vertical search engines are going to come out?
- [03:38:35] <TantekC>
Bindu: How can you keep track of all these sites?
- [03:40:08] <TantekC>
moderator: An entrypoint for the advertiser, and then a entrypoint for the consumer, a place where they start their process.
- [03:40:18] <TantekC>
moderator: in some ways you are representing this...
- [03:40:45] <TantekC>
Craig: When the internet becomes the marketplace, the platforms divide. if you are sell side focussed, you have to be vertically focussed. e.g. cars.com
- [03:41:02] <TantekC>
Craig: buying platforms are horizontally organized.
- [03:43:15] <TantekC>
Keith: Craig and I have agreed that we can take each others data and republish them.
- [03:43:28] <TantekC>
Keith: We don't see each other as repositories of the data per se.
- [03:46:01] <TantekC>
Keith: I think geocoding and tagging give you the ability to know where something is, and what it is. Publishing gives you the when.
- [03:46:21] <TantekC>
Keith: Given those, it should be possible to filter the data with vertical search.
- [03:46:52] <TantekC>
Keith: But there is a marketing problem, do people go to a generic place, or a specific place. E.g. digital photography and go to DPReview rather than Yahoo.
- [03:47:00] <TantekC>
Might be an 80/20 problem.
- [03:47:18] <TantekC>
... /Keith
- [03:49:07] <TantekC>
Keith: Everyone can become a publisher. As soon as the data is mobile.
- [03:49:33] <TantekC>
Keith: The data becomes more valuable as it is distributed more.
- [03:50:53] <TantekC>
moderator: I want to challenge that a little bit. If I have a blog, and I can put my comic book collection on that blog, and it can be picked up by another news reader, where is the business model?
- [03:51:05] <TantekC>
Keith: I'm purposely not being specific, but you are forcing me to be.
- [03:51:15] <TantekC>
[ note: URL about talk: http://searchsig.wordpress.com/2006/01/21/feb-8th-search-sig/ ]
- [03:52:19] <TantekC>
Keith: Circuit City sends out a catalog. But if they sent out a feed, then they would get a lot more value by redistributing it. That is qualified leads. If in addition to that, I have 10k people who are looing for an LCD TV, and they have a query on Edgeio that as soon as one becomes available, that's monetizable.
- [03:52:43] <TantekC>
moderator: that's a beautiful thing for circuit city, and for the consumer, but where is the business model?
- [03:52:54] <TantekC>
Bindu: Let's suppose for a moment that we have Google Classifieds.
- [03:53:34] <TantekC>
Bindu: Because a lot of people believe in the Google brand.
- [03:53:50] <TantekC>
Bindu: People are not going to subscribe to the feeds of all the sellers, they will subscribe to a few only.
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- [03:54:15] <TantekC>
moderator: The consumer is not going to pay for anything in classifieds.
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- [03:56:52] <TantekC>
Keith: Craigslist is free, and anyone can republish as long as they link back to Craigslist.
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- [04:00:52] * TantekC is getting bored
- [04:01:03] * TantekC is getting distracted and switching to other apps.
- [04:02:41] <TantekC>
Bindu: We are very much a consumer focused company.
- [04:03:08] <TantekC>
Bindu: How do you organize that information so you can get to what you want quickly?
- [04:03:44] <TantekC>
audience question: you have been mixing together many things. small ads, large ads.
- [04:06:15] <TantekC>
... in Germany they are called "small ads"
- [04:06:20] <TantekC>
Keith: In England also.
- [04:11:13] <TantekC>
Keith: Edgeio is founded on the premise that self-publishing will replace the need for centralized publishing.
- [04:11:49] <TantekC>
Keith: ... that self-publishing will not limit your audience. The thing you publish will be aggregated into a centralized distribution system without you having to publish in a centralized system. So that eBays and Craigslists become unnecessary.
- [04:12:01] <TantekC>
Keith: ... that is the vision that we have.
- [04:12:53] <TantekC>
Dave McClure: Google is crawling other sites. But GoogleBase is different in that it is hosting the data. SimplyHired would like to index GoogleBase. Is GoogleBase going to stay a walled garden?
- [04:13:15] <TantekC>
Bindu: We intend to make it crawlable. We do not want to be a walled garden.
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- [04:13:47] <TantekC>
Bindu: Our whole point is, let's get all the world's information and organize it.
- [04:14:58] <TantekC>
Bindu: We are not going to charge for the process of giving us content. The one thing that might happen and we might consider, is a nominal charge to combat spam.
- [04:15:22] <TantekC>
Bindu: This is going to be content that you submit for Google for free and we will distribute to as many users as possible.
- [04:17:10] * bewest bouts confusion
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- [04:24:57] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [04:32:13] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
- [04:36:51] <TantekC>
first part of the session is done
- [04:36:56] <TantekC>
they're doing demos now
- [04:37:00] <TantekC>
note to self: always do demos first
- [04:37:21] <TantekC>
Keith Teare demos Edgeio
- [04:37:29] <TantekC>
http://edgeio.com
- [04:37:39] <TantekC>
says to email matt@edgeio.com to get the alpha password
- [04:40:16] <TantekC>
Craig demos Oodle
- [04:45:15] <TantekC>
Craig pitches microformats!
- [04:45:28] <TantekC>
to get the conversation going
- [04:45:41] <TantekC>
we've put a proposal with research on microformats.org
- [04:46:16] <TantekC>
for an hListing microformat
- [04:46:28] <TantekC>
Wordpress plugin that supports the draft hListing
- [04:46:41] <TantekC>
http://blog.oodle.com/
- [04:46:51] <TantekC>
did a test hListing post earlier tonight
- [04:47:08] <TantekC>
http://blog.oodle.com/?p=25
- [04:48:24] <TantekC>
[ note from notetaker: experimentation in the wild is always a good thing, trying out microformata experiments to see how they work with real data is a good way to get experience, even with drafts or things that will change. ]
- [04:49:14] <TantekC>
(applause for Craig)
- [04:49:25] <TantekC>
Bindu demos Google Base
- [04:49:38] <TantekC>
(someone asks for the font to be made bigger)
- [04:49:51] <TantekC>
Bindu: GoogleBase is about three things
- [04:50:06] <TantekC>
Bindu: 1. to complement how Google acquires content
- [04:50:18] <TantekC>
Bindu: For individuals to post something who don't have a website of their own
- [04:50:26] <TantekC>
Bindu: Also for small businesses to give us data with feeds
- [04:50:49] <TantekC>
Bindu: We want to organize all the world's information, but some of this info is offline, or in databases
- [04:51:10] <TantekC>
Bindu: GoogleBase is a place for you to come give us that content, and then Google decides what to do with that content.
- [04:51:21] <TantekC>
Bindu: 2. It is taking and experimenting with a different type of search.
- [04:51:37] <TantekC>
Bindu: This is a totally new kind of experiment. Trying this on base.
- [04:51:51] <TantekC>
Bindu: 3rd thing is taking some of the data we have and pushing it into different properties.
- [04:52:31] <TantekC>
Bindu: in terms of accepting content, all the content we accept can be, all the content we accept can be classified into an item type.
- [04:52:48] <TantekC>
Bindu: We have all sorts of content types. We see recipes, we see protein databases.
- [04:53:26] <TantekC>
Bindu: (pulls down drop down menu with about 15 items: Course Schedules, Events and Activities, Housing, Jobs, News and Articles, ... )
- [04:53:35] <TantekC>
Bindu: for example I can upload a simple podcast
- [04:54:19] <TantekC>
Bindu: We are looking at all the content submitted to base and looking to see how we can enhance our core search properties with content from base.
- [04:54:31] <TantekC>
Bindu: Tagging. Get the content provider to tag their content.
- [04:55:06] <TantekC>
Bindu: We took tagging one step further. Tagging is nothing but simple values. Why don't we take that one step further and have name value pairs. Anybody can create any number of attributes.
- [04:55:54] <TantekC>
Bindu: The idea behind base is trying to get this data, which is not necessarily classified items, get this data into Google, and have it show up in other search results.
- [04:58:03] <TantekC>
audience question: what will google do with this content?
- [04:58:09] <TantekC>
Bindu: We need to make sure it is not spam.
- [04:58:29] <TantekC>
Bindu: Some feeds into Froogle. Some feeds into Local. Some into different properties based on relevance and item type.
- [05:00:31] <TantekC>
Bindu: Googlebase is a platform for us to get this data. Our next step is to create a bunch of applications on this data, and create features in our core properties which will take this data and surface it.
- [05:00:51] <TantekC>
Bindu: The idea is how do you surface that data in the right place when people are looking for it.
- [05:09:54] <TantekC>
Tantek asked Bindu if Google would work with the community to develop standards.
- [05:10:05] <TantekC>
Bindu said they are working with XAPI for Atom extensions.
- [05:12:52] <limbo_>
oooh
- [05:13:05] <limbo_>
wrong window :)
- [05:14:14] * TantekC googles for XAPI
- [05:14:24] * TantekC fails to find a community that does standards.
- [05:15:05] <MarkB>
XML DB API - not sure how you do Atom extensions with it
- [05:19:32] <TantekC>
MarkB, agreed, I think she dodged my question.
- [05:20:11] <MarkB>
they're at least participating in Atom... though not very actively any more IIRC
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- [06:04:13] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [06:50:08] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [06:50:18] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
- [06:51:08] <limbo_>
hey ryan, finally managed to get assaf's parser running
- [06:51:14] <kingryan>
cool
- [06:51:14] <limbo_>
i can read XFN now!
- [06:51:17] <kingryan>
what was the problem?
- [06:51:24] <limbo_>
there were many
- [06:51:29] <limbo_>
mainly the lack of a clear howto
- [06:51:35] <kingryan>
ah
- [06:51:48] <kingryan>
the classic documentation bug
- [06:51:55] <limbo_>
there's some nasty pitfalls...
- [06:51:57] <limbo_>
yep
- [06:52:13] <limbo_>
but it seems to be working ok
- [06:52:30] <limbo_>
moving on to reading posts and parsing cite-rel
- [06:53:17] <limbo_>
but it seems like the approach of using css selectors to read uformats is a good way to go
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- [06:55:52] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
- [06:56:56] <limbo_>
btw, i was looking for feed readers in ruby and found this guy: http://sporkmonger.com/projects/feedtools/
- [06:57:17] <limbo_>
who seems to be working on something he calls microformat tools
- [06:57:17] <limbo_>
http://rubyforge.org/projects/mftools/
- [06:57:37] <limbo_>
not much info but who knows...
- [07:03:44] <kingryan>
that name sounds familiar
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- [07:03:57] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [07:04:21] <limbo_>
dunno
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- [07:19:57] <mfbot>
[[resume-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=4877 * RyanKing * (+280) added affiliation idea
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- [07:57:49] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=4878 * RyanKing * (+2568) added format
- [07:58:55] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=4879 * RyanKing * (+3581) added examples
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- [08:47:21] <limbo_>
http://hellonline.com/blog/?p=73
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- [09:07:22] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [09:26:00] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:29:29] <trovster>
http://www.multipack.co.uk/members/ what is wrong with the vcards on this page/
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- [12:38:03] <jibot>
karlUshi is karlcow
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- [13:21:14] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [13:34:44] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [13:42:46] <trovster>
Anyone 'bout? Got an vcard problem (with a validator)
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- [15:07:32] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [15:13:14] <jibot>
waglo is a supybot - ~[list|help] for more info. and also belong to oqp
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- [15:22:52] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [15:30:16] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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- [17:22:35] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [17:49:51] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [17:51:01] <trovster>
Anyone 'bout? Got an vcard problem (with a validator)
- [17:51:24] <TantekC>
hello trovster
- [17:51:32] <TantekC>
did you get my IRC last night
- [17:55:48] <trovster>
No... I wasn't online yesterday, I was at a conference in London!
- [17:58:32] <trovster>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http%3A//www.multipack.co.uk/members/ "no FN property was found" ...
- [17:59:41] <trovster>
<li class="vcard"><a href="http://www.trovster.com" class="fn url">Trevor Morris</a></li> -- clearly have FN and URL
- [18:13:52] * ryan|unconscious (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [18:15:56] <TantekC>
trovster
- [18:16:00] <TantekC>
this hCard:
- [18:16:01] <TantekC>
<dl class="vcard vevent">
- [18:16:03] <TantekC>
has no fn
- [18:19:48] <trovster>
Aha, thanks, fixed.
- [18:20:07] <TantekC>
also, you have naked "fn"s
- [18:20:26] <TantekC>
which should be inside something with class name of "vcard"
- [18:20:41] <TantekC>
e.g. this: <li class="fn">Oli Walker</li>
- [18:20:42] <TantekC>
should be
- [18:20:56] <TantekC>
<li class="vcard"><span class="fn">Oli Walker</span></li>
- [18:21:11] <trovster>
Ok, I understand that. But it's a bit pointless for just a name, isn't it?
- [18:23:58] <pnhChris>
is there any danger in using fn outside of a microformat context?
- [18:24:28] <pnhChris>
(or more likely, summary, content, etc.)
- [18:25:19] <trovster>
I don't see why... I'm using it outside whereever the company name is mentioned.
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- [18:37:43] <TantekC>
trovster, not pointless, in that often times you get other information about the person from other channels, private channels, etc.
- [18:38:06] <TantekC>
plus what you are doing is semantically marking up that string of text as a "person"
- [18:38:20] <trovster>
Ok. I'll add it.
- [18:38:53] <TantekC>
pnhChris, it depends. if you set proper context with class names, it shouldn't be a problem.
- [18:39:05] <TantekC>
note that "fn" is being reused for the "name" field in other microformats
- [18:39:22] <TantekC>
and will probably see more re-use in the future in microformats like media-info, citation, blog-info etc.
- [18:40:28] <trovster>
I create that list with this > http://pastebin.com/546997
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- [18:51:49] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4880 * JonathanFeinberg * (+662)
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- [18:55:54] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:07:21] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [19:13:30] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
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- [19:13:53] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:14:10] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4881 * Tantek * (+893) rejected a bunch of previously discussed issues.
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- [19:32:59] <trovster>
Is <li class="vcard fn">Dominic Gonsalves</li> wrong?
- [19:33:22] <mfbot>
[[hash-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hash-examples&diff=0&oldid=4882 * Ant * (+109) Real-World Examples -
- [19:33:53] <RobertBachmann>
yes, AFAIK
- [19:34:13] <RobertBachmann>
you may not collapse the root class name (vcard) with sub-class names
- [19:34:18] * RobertBachmann checks the spec
- [19:37:38] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-feedback&diff=0&oldid=4883 * JonathanFeinberg * (+494) General Comments -
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- [19:52:13] <RobertBachmann>
trovsert, have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#finding_hCard_properties
- [19:52:24] <RobertBachmann>
trovster*
- [19:57:05] <trovster>
So that's a no :S hmm. I'll remove them then.
- [20:01:12] <RobertBachmann>
write it like this <li class="vcard"><span class="fn">Dominic Gonsalves</span></li>
- [20:02:33] <trovster>
No point. I originally just had <li class="fn"> but tantek said to add vcard.
- [20:02:39] <trovster>
I'll add them when/if they provide a URL
- [20:04:12] <trovster>
I use a function to generate it, I can add the span in manually, I'd rather not
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- [20:20:50] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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- [21:09:37] <mfbot>
[[faq]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=4884 * Brian * (+414) Added FAQ about indicating the presence of a microformat
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dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [21:21:08] <mfbot>
[[ap-feedback]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/ap-feedback * Tantek * (+1147)
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- [21:26:14] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4885 * Robert Yates * (+903)
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- [21:37:28] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [23:15:33] <mfbot>
[[faq]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=faq&diff=0&oldid=4886 * Tantek * (+111)
- [23:21:14] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4887 * RyanKing * (+109)
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karlUshi is karlcow
- [23:47:36] <tantek>
hello Karl
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- [23:57:16] <mfbot>
[[rel-tag-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-tag-issues&diff=0&oldid=4888 * Robert Yates * (+47)
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