IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  89. [11:30:27] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  94. [12:09:29] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  96. [12:19:46] <jibot> WildFox is Mr. KDOM. Co-author of kdom, ksvg and kcanvas.
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  102. [13:47:16] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
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  107. [14:02:27] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  109. [14:16:01] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  110. [14:21:47] * dglazkov is reading mflogs
  111. [14:22:20] <dglazkov> ooh, comments on cocomments
  112. [14:22:32] * dglazkov once invented coblogging. The idea didn't catch on
  113. [14:23:29] <dglazkov> too bad
  114. [14:23:47] <dglazkov> but you get to read about it anyway: http://glazkov.com/archive/2004/08/12/214.aspx
  115. [14:33:24] <trovster> You know what really annoys me... Technorati's integration of ads.
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  118. [15:16:32] <dglazkov> hey, anybody here going to mix06?
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  123. [16:11:30] <mfbot> [[User:DanC]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DanC&diff=0&oldid=4994 * DanC * (+101) oh for openID!
  124. [16:12:06] <mfbot> [[User:DanC]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DanC&diff=0&oldid=4995 * DanC * (-12)
  125. [16:22:08] <DanC> I'm trying to make an outline, XOXO style
  126. [16:22:12] <DanC> I can't get http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-compact-sample to work
  127. [16:22:24] <DanC> I saved the stuff there in a file.
  128. [16:22:33] <DanC> (fixed a comment markup bug, which made me suspicious)
  129. [16:22:45] <DanC> I see the triangles, but nothing happens when I click on them.
  130. [16:23:15] <DanC> hmm... "This code will currently only work in Safari and other WebKit-based browsers."
  131. [16:24:03] <DanC> ah... I see... you don't click on the arrows; you click on the text of the item
  132. [16:27:10] <DanC> hm... this one works nicely... http://www.decafbad.com/2005/07/map-test/tree2.html
  133. [16:28:29] <DanC> I don't see class="xoxo" anywhere in there, though
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  136. [16:37:50] <markp> hmm, rel=sidebar http://help.opera.com/Mac/8.0/en/panels.html
  137. [16:37:55] <markp> works in firefox too
  138. [16:52:00] <TantekC> DanC, class="xoxo" is optional
  139. [16:52:08] <TantekC> dglazkov, I'm planning on going to mix06
  140. [16:52:36] <dglazkov> cool
  141. [16:52:55] <DanC> optional. hm. so all lists are xoxo outlines? hmm.
  142. [16:53:13] <TantekC> yes! that's the beauty of it. there's tons of XOXO out there for processing.
  143. [16:53:24] <TantekC> XOXO was very much designed based on existing practice.
  144. [16:53:40] <TantekC> e.g. there are far more XOXO blogrolls in the wild, than there are "feed lists" in random XML formats.
  145. [16:54:16] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  146. [16:55:12] <TantekC> DanC, the CSS and javascript required for the xoxo-compact-example exposes bugs in other browsers. See the "Notes" section which describes precisely what those other browsers are missing: http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo-compact-sample#Notes
  147. [16:55:16] <DanC> xoxo is more and more slippery all the time. I don't get in what sense it was "designed". Is it possible to test anything about xoxo? I saw a DTD somewhere.
  148. [16:55:46] * markp (n=markp@12.145.0.2) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  149. [16:55:54] <TantekC> DanC, it's literally just a subset of (X)HTML. Thus you can find samples of it embedded in (X)HTML everywhere.
  150. [16:56:00] <DanC> yes, saw #Notes
  151. [16:56:43] <mfbot> [[xoxo-compact-sample]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-compact-sample&diff=0&oldid=4996 * Tantek * (+9) XOXO 'compact' sample -
  152. [16:57:08] <DanC> reading http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo#The_XOXO_Document_Type , it seems that if I put a <blockquote> in a <li>, then that list is not XOXO. true?
  153. [16:59:18] <DanC> hmm... http://homepage.mac.com/ctholland/thelab/outlines/ works in ff
  154. [17:05:41] <DanC> tantek, did you see "Re: W3C TP Session Organizer's Progress Report Due on Friday 17 Feb" that I sent you?
  155. [17:09:47] <DanC> TantekC?
  156. [17:11:12] <TantekC> hmm..
  157. [17:11:52] <TantekC> DanC, got it. Will be sending out list of speakers/talks today.
  158. [17:12:09] <DanC> so you don't need anything from me?
  159. [17:12:17] <TantekC> speaking of which, do you have a title/summary for your 5-10 min. talk/demo?
  160. [17:12:47] <DanC> oh. you do need something.
  161. [17:12:52] <TantekC> email me the title/summary/description of your 5-10 min talk for the microformats panel for the W3C plenary day.
  162. [17:12:56] <TantekC> yes
  163. [17:12:57] <TantekC> thanks!
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  165. [17:14:19] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  168. [17:28:23] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  170. [17:31:53] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  175. [17:47:25] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
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  179. [18:27:12] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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  185. [18:35:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  189. [18:53:31] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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  195. [19:26:38] <factoryjoe> bad joke of the day:
  196. [19:26:47] <factoryjoe> htink: the microformat for thinking!
  197. [19:29:28] <kingryan> yeah, but it only covers the 80/20 of thinking
  198. [19:29:38] <factoryjoe> ooo true dat
  199. [19:30:56] <dglazkov> and only original thoughts
  200. [19:31:37] <kingryan> and is based on a well established schema for thoughts
  201. [19:31:47] <kingryan> that dates back centuries
  202. [19:32:03] <dglazkov> is it a religious thinking?
  203. [19:32:21] <kingryan> dunno, is that the 80% case?
  204. [19:33:11] <dglazkov> depends on a religion, I guess
  205. [19:36:58] <factoryjoe> yeah, and whether your thinking validates or not
  206. [19:37:37] <dglazkov> ooh, online thought validator, I like that
  207. [19:39:54] <kingryan> we should make it easier to publish *well-formed* thoughts
  208. [19:46:00] <TantekC> everyone knows that well-formed thoughts are not necessarily valid.
  209. [19:47:05] <kingryan> and valid thoughts are not necessarily well-formed?
  210. [19:47:19] <factoryjoe> totally true
  211. [19:47:37] <kingryan> sometimes you have to use quirks-mode to interpret them
  212. [19:47:49] <factoryjoe> and then there's the lying factor... opacity: 80% true, etc
  213. [19:48:30] <kingryan> of course, its tough to seperate out the the style from the content, too
  214. [19:49:03] <factoryjoe> how powerful presentation is on how convincing the content is
  215. [19:53:24] <dglazkov> anybody up to setting up http://www.microformats.org/wiki/htink-examples ?
  216. [19:54:07] <factoryjoe> heh
  217. [19:54:23] <factoryjoe> it would be fun to index everyone's thoughts
  218. [19:54:32] <kingryan> don't we already have irc logs?
  219. [19:54:35] <factoryjoe> i mean, the other problem
  220. [19:54:38] <kingryan> and blogs for that?
  221. [19:54:49] <factoryjoe> is that google will come out with thoughtbase and steal all our ideas
  222. [19:55:04] <factoryjoe> we need a baseless solution!
  223. [20:04:51] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  229. [20:13:00] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  237. [21:02:18] <dglazkov> http://glazkov.com/resources/code/mf/xoxo-example.html
  238. [21:03:21] * BenjaminCarlyle (n=fuzzy@c210-49-75-79.rochd2.qld.optusnet.com.au) has joined #microformats
  239. [21:03:22] <jibot> BenjaminCarlyle is http://soundadvice.id.au/blog/, GMT 1000
  240. [21:11:16] <dglazkov> works on gecko, webkit, and opera engines, degrades gracefully in IE
  241. [21:11:32] <dglazkov> the only fun part: no graphics
  242. [21:12:29] <dglazkov> oh, and arrows scale with fonts (try increasing font size)
  243. [21:15:42] <factoryjoe> cool...
  244. [21:16:10] <dglazkov> as usual, I am late to the game -- DanC wanted help w/this :)
  245. [21:16:13] * bewest|work (n=bewest@c-69-138-89-146.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ("Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/")
  246. [21:16:26] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@h-67-103-44-6.snfccasy.covad.net) Quit ()
  247. [21:17:32] <DanC> way cool...
  248. [21:17:44] * DanC utsls...
  249. [21:18:36] <DanC> hmm... "li.collapsed > div.arrow"? not ul.collapsed?
  250. [21:19:11] <DanC> oh... div.arrow is the little arrow
  251. [21:19:18] <dglazkov> yup
  252. [21:20:22] <DanC> where does the arrow graphic come from? I don't see any gifs or anything
  253. [21:20:34] <dglazkov> that's the trick :)
  254. [21:20:40] <dglazkov> I am using borders
  255. [21:21:17] <dglazkov> look at * div.arrow selectors
  256. [21:21:18] <DanC> huh? how do... OOOOH. I get it. wow. that's brilliant.
  257. [21:21:39] <dglazkov> tantek does this on his home page. I just steal it and pimp it
  258. [21:22:07] <DanC> he did triangles like this on his home page?
  259. [21:22:26] <dglazkov> http://tantek.com/map.html
  260. [21:22:30] <DanC> if so, you definitely owe an ack in the sources...
  261. [21:23:03] <DanC> ah. similar.
  262. [21:23:32] <dglazkov> the technique is the same. There are people who went really wild with this:
  263. [21:24:11] <dglazkov> http://www.tanfa.co.uk/css/borders/
  264. [21:26:45] <DanC> hmm... trying it with the xoxo projects list I'm working on... it sorta works but sorta doesn't.
  265. [21:26:56] <DanC> my projects list is in XHTML
  266. [21:27:01] <DanC> and it uses the compact attribute
  267. [21:27:54] <DanC> when I click, the triangles change, but the stuff underneath doesn't go away
  268. [21:28:40] <DanC> hmm... I'm using ul, not ol...
  269. [21:29:05] <DanC> ah... s/ol/ul/ in the .css did it!
  270. [21:29:07] <DanC> cool.
  271. [21:30:02] * cee-dub is now known as cee-dub|lunch
  272. [21:30:10] <DanC> wicked cool. My gtd projects list, which I've been keeping in XHTML for a little while, is now an interactive outline.
  273. [21:30:48] <DanC> hmm... I'd like to have some visual indication that there's something hidden
  274. [21:31:14] <DanC> ah... I see... there's no triangle if there's nothing hidden. cool.
  275. [21:31:28] <dglazkov> yes, like OS X, I think
  276. [21:33:01] * DanC is tempted to use this for http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/lc-status-report.html
  277. [21:33:27] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
  278. [21:34:38] <dglazkov> certainly would be a test of scale :)
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  284. [21:53:20] * ChanServ sets mode -o rohit
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  286. [22:05:44] * kingryan read scrollback
  287. [22:05:52] <kingryan> for more crazy CSS from tantek, see http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/
  288. [22:12:19] <dglazkov> is there a need for a public xoxo server?
  289. [22:14:20] <Hixie> TantekC: did you have any ideas of things for me to datamine for the presentation?
  290. [22:14:34] <Hixie> what microformat thingies do people want to know about the web?
  291. [22:14:48] <Hixie> most commonly used title attribute values on <abbr> elements, e.g.?
  292. [22:21:00] * hlb (i=hlb@CCCA.NCTU.edu.tw) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  294. [22:21:06] <Frederic> kingryan: totally agree with you on the wtf is textmate mac os only issue
  295. [22:31:39] <hober> Fortunately, Emacs runs under everything. :)
  296. [22:32:21] <tantek> Hixie, perhaps it would be interesting to look explicitly for current microformat root class names
  297. [22:32:40] <tantek> a lot of this is changing quickly
  298. [22:32:55] <tantek> e.g. judysbook.com flipped on hReview markup for ALL their reviews
  299. [22:33:28] <Hixie> with proper profile="" attributes? ;-)
  300. [22:33:43] <Hixie> but yeah, good idea
  301. [22:33:56] <Hixie> could you send me a list of element/class pairs to look for?
  302. [22:34:52] * Hixie wonders why judysbook.com isn't loading
  303. [22:35:27] <tantek> Hixie, any element
  304. [22:35:43] <kingryan> Hixie, judysbook publishes reviews to other places, people's blogs, so they can't do the profile attribute
  305. [22:35:47] <tantek> for the class names, things like vcard, vcalendar, vevent, hreview, xfolk, hresume, hlisting
  306. [22:36:02] <tantek> Hixie, judysbook does *both*
  307. [22:36:07] <tantek> they publish reviews on their own site
  308. [22:36:18] <tantek> as well as enable members to publish reviews on blogs anywhere
  309. [22:36:22] <kingryan> hober, does emacs run *inside* your browser?
  310. [22:37:35] <hober> kingryan: actually, (one of) my browser(s) runs in Emacs. Insert obligatory soviet russia joke here.
  311. [22:37:45] <hober> For other browsers, their's mozex or equivalent
  312. [22:38:20] <Hixie> tantek: yeah the problem is that since (for technical reasons) i can only look up the top 1000 classes, so if i do it for all elements, i won't get any hits (none of those classes are in the top1000 most used classes in the billion page sample i used in december)
  313. [22:38:41] <Hixie> s/since//
  314. [22:39:22] <hober> I know there's been some work recently to support XEmbed, so X11 browsers might be able to embed Emacs for their textareas
  315. [22:40:13] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  316. [22:43:34] * cee-dub|lunch is now known as cee-dub
  317. [22:43:45] <kingryan> hober, that'd be cool
  318. [22:46:12] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  319. [22:47:08] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  320. [22:48:21] <hober> kingryan: http://edward.oconnor.cx/tmp/emacs-w3m.png
  321. [22:48:38] <tantek> Hixie, do you have that top1000 most used classes published somewhere?
  322. [22:48:54] <hober> Web browsing in Emacs is surprisingly usable, though the rendering leaves a whole hell of a lot to be desired. :)
  323. [22:48:56] <Hixie> i have the top20 published on the google site
  324. [22:49:02] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.1/2006011112]")
  325. [22:49:08] <tantek> right, I was hoping we could see all 1000
  326. [22:49:15] <kingryan> cool, hober
  327. [22:49:26] * kingryan has editor-envy
  328. [22:50:20] <hober> Camino is the worst offender, of the OS X textareas / input @type="text"
  329. [22:50:55] <hober> both firefox and safari handle Emacs-style navigation of the textareas (C-a, C-n, etc.)
  330. [22:51:17] <hober> Camino's textareas are beyond unusable
  331. [22:52:24] <kingryan> yeah
  332. [22:52:40] <kingryan> camino's bad, though the rest of it is very mac-ish
  333. [22:54:00] <hober> yeah, I'd love to switch from Safari, but the combination of saft and somewhat usable textareas keeps me from switching
  334. [22:54:57] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  335. [22:55:20] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  336. [22:56:00] * Hixie gets an idea for his talk
  337. [22:59:07] <tantek> http://decafbad.com/blog/2006/02/16/just-put-on-your-xoxo-colored-glasses
  338. [23:38:56] * pnhChris thinks about marking up a template with class="content atom-content entry-content description" just to be safe
  339. [23:40:09] <amanuel> tantek: that is nice
  340. [23:40:32] <amanuel> clean and transparent
  341. [23:58:32] <DanC> tantek, I've got 3 minutes to family time; I spent the whole afternoon working on a SPARQL LCWD publication
  342. [23:58:46] <DanC> meanwhile, I told Steve we'd have something today. ugh.
  343. [23:59:04] <DanC> not to mention the workshop paper for IRW@WWW2006 that's due today that I haven't even started on

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