IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-25
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:03:53] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [00:18:24] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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- [00:22:05] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [00:25:04] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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- [00:40:03] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [00:58:53] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5158 * Mark Mansour * (+1754) Notes for the hCalendar IRC meetup
- [00:58:56] <markmansour>
hello people.
- [00:59:44] <markmansour>
Is there anyone here for the hCalendar IRC meetup? The notes posted (on the 17th of Feb) for the agenda have been added t the hCalendar-issues page
- [01:00:10] <briansuda>
i'm here and reviewing the notes at the moment
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- [01:00:38] <markmansour>
Hi Brian, great to see you could make it
- [01:01:47] <markmansour>
if you are lurking around the channel feel free to say "hi"
- [01:03:06] <briansuda>
have you read or seen the proposal for the <object class="include" data="#">? it might overlap with your fragment post
- [01:03:07] <KevinMarks>
hi
- [01:03:17] <markmansour>
Hi Kevin
- [01:03:25] <markmansour>
brian: no I haven't read that.
- [01:03:30] <markmansour>
I'll have a look now
- [01:03:41] <briansuda>
actually, i don't think it is the same thing, but worth reading anyway
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- [01:05:13] <briansuda>
as for you fragment post, are you referencing the ability to use IDs to extract a single event/person from a list?
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- [01:05:30] <markmansour>
Kevin, what is the usual etiquette for starting these meeting?
- [01:05:52] <markmansour>
wait 5 - 10 mins? or just get into it?
- [01:06:57] <markmansour>
brain: I'm referring to the hcard-parsing spec that says "If the URL has a fragment identifier, then the parser should parse only the node indicated by the fragment identifier and its descendants, looking for hCards, starting with the indicated node, which may itself be a single hCard."
- [01:07:49] <markmansour>
if you look at the example given, which seems to be a typical use of fragments, then there are no decendants to "myfrag"
- [01:08:15] <briansuda>
OK, then the way I handle it is to look for a class="vcard|vevent" on THAT node or a child, not an ancestor.
- [01:09:22] <briansuda>
i'm not sure what you expect to happen with your example?
- [01:09:29] <markmansour>
so the correct way to use a fragment with vcard|event is ... <a name="myfrag" class="vevent"><div class="dtstart">2005-06-23</div></a>?
- [01:09:41] <markmansour>
brian: the example is bad, let me fix it up
- [01:11:19] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5159 * Mark Mansour * (+70)
- [01:11:37] <briansuda>
in my code i first find all class="vcard" then test to see if they have an ID= #fragment, if they do i continue to parse it, otherwise it is skipped
- [01:11:38] <markmansour>
that should make it clearer
- [01:12:36] <briansuda>
well in that case nothing would happen because there is no child elements of hCard, hCard is a sibling in that example
- [01:13:01] <briansuda>
vevent not hCard.
- [01:13:02] <markmansour>
ID=#fragment??? I'm not quite following you... Could you give me an example?
- [01:13:09] <briansuda>
sure
- [01:13:14] <briansuda>
<div class="vevent">
- [01:13:15] <briansuda>
<div class="description">A nice event</div>
- [01:13:15] <briansuda>
<abbr class="dtstart" title="2005-10-05">October 5</abbr>
- [01:13:15] <briansuda>
</div>
- [01:13:27] <briansuda>
sorry, paste didn't work that time...
- [01:13:31] <markmansour>
:)
- [01:13:49] <briansuda>
<div class="vevent" id="myfragment">...</div>
- [01:14:01] <briansuda>
the ref URL would be foobar.html#myfragment
- [01:14:06] <markmansour>
so a fragment is not a HTML fragment, but the id of an element
- [01:14:41] <briansuda>
(some one corret me if i am wrong) but in XHTML name is depricated on everything but form elements
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- [01:15:15] <markmansour>
I'm not 100% sure. Maybe someone else who is here knows
- [01:15:49] <briansuda>
i think "fragment" is in reference to a portion of the DOM Tree which is explicitly referenced by the ID
- [01:16:31] <markmansour>
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/links.html
- [01:16:44] <markmansour>
says "estination anchors in HTML documents may be specified either by the A element (naming it with the name attribute), or by any other element (naming with the id attribute)."
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- [01:17:26] <briansuda>
either way, you will need to wrap the microformat in some sort of "container" be it a DIV or P or something else, if you want to use 'A' then you'd still have to "wrap" the microformat in it (which is not always what is called-for)
- [01:19:09] <kingryan>
name is deprecated on all but form elements
- [01:19:10] <markmansour>
that is how the calendar-fragment.xml test works now.. Would you like to check that it is correct? http://svn.lifelint.com/hcalendar_tests/calendar-fragment.xml
- [01:19:19] <kingryan>
the proper way to do it is to refer to an @id
- [01:19:20] <markmansour>
thanks ryan.
- [01:19:36] <markmansour>
that means the hCal test need to be updated.
- [01:19:44] <kingryan>
yes
- [01:19:57] <kingryan>
we need to get together on the test stuff
- [01:20:02] <kingryan>
I have some I need to add
- [01:20:19] <briansuda>
Yes, that test needs to be changed in two ways... first you can easily swap NAME for ID
- [01:20:42] <markmansour>
If you already have some made up would you like them added to the current collection of hcal tests?
- [01:20:43] <briansuda>
secondly, class="vcard url" needs to be broken up, class="url" needs to be a child of class="vcard"
- [01:21:13] <markmansour>
ryan - that's great
- [01:21:53] <kingryan>
mark, I sent you an email earlier about this, too
- [01:22:04] <briansuda>
Ryan: you know where the sample vevents we marked-up with AXIS/HEADERS are? i don't think they were ever public?
- [01:22:42] <kingryan>
no, they weren't, but I have them
- [01:23:03] <briansuda>
Mark was looking for examples of AXIS/HEADER as well
- [01:23:17] <kingryan>
I'm not sure where they are, but I can find them later
- [01:23:28] <kingryan>
I can't stick around long, I'm about to head out
- [01:23:49] <markmansour>
Is there anything else you want to get through before you head off.. I'm not too limited on time at the moment
- [01:25:28] <markmansour>
brain: the class="vcard url" - what is that in relation to?
- [01:26:16] <briansuda>
the link to the test case you sent
- [01:26:45] <markmansour>
ah... yes... ok.
- [01:27:17] <markmansour>
so what I am hearing from you both is the calendar-fragment tests are just wrong and that ryan has new tests that would be more compliant by using @ids.
- [01:28:01] <briansuda>
the test is incorrect, i can correct it and email it you along with other contributions
- [01:28:15] <markmansour>
thanks brain
- [01:28:18] <markmansour>
brian even :)
- [01:29:32] <markmansour>
ryan has offered to host the hcalendar test at microformats and I would like to take him up on that.
- [01:29:40] <kingryan>
coolio
- [01:29:51] <kingryan>
we can put it in svn there, too
- [01:29:56] <markmansour>
that would be fab
- [01:29:59] <kingryan>
so that collab will be a bit easier
- [01:30:05] <markmansour>
all for it
- [01:30:09] <kingryan>
I've also got some rake scripts for building tests
- [01:30:30] <markmansour>
I'm not familiar with rake scripts. I'm assuming they are some sort of testing harness
- [01:30:42] <kingryan>
"ruby make"
- [01:30:47] <markmansour>
nice
- [01:30:53] <kingryan>
builds source urls and stuff
- [01:30:58] <kingryan>
and prodids
- [01:31:39] <markmansour>
Well, the svn tests at http://svn.lifelint.com/hcalendar_tests/ are easily accessible, so would you just like to rip them off there and add them to a uf svn server?
- [01:31:48] <briansuda>
yeah, if we could get all TESTS on MF that would be great - i know there has always been talk of SVN at MF
- [01:32:00] <markmansour>
they could probably do with some restructing
- [01:32:15] <kingryan>
yeah, we've got a couple kinds of tests...
- [01:32:28] <kingryan>
ones from the rfc's, trivial ones and ones from the wild
- [01:33:12] <markmansour>
I've kinda got the same thing. The component-* events are trivial, the calendar-* events have inter-related fields, and itw-* are "in the wild" :)
- [01:33:40] <briansuda>
OK, so does that help with some of your Q's from the Wiki? which are still outstanding?
- [01:33:47] <markmansour>
I'll freeze my additions to these tests if you can get them into a publically accessible svn server
- [01:34:23] <markmansour>
outstanding are still 1, 2, 3
- [01:34:38] <markmansour>
let's take 1 first. SHould vcalendar be a hCal class
- [01:34:44] <briansuda>
OK lets talk 3, embeded components...
- [01:34:52] <kingryan>
I gotta run
- [01:35:01] <kingryan>
feel free to email if you have any Q's for me
- [01:35:07] <briansuda>
will do.
- [01:35:09] <markmansour>
ok ryan. I'll email you
- [01:35:23] <markmansour>
I'm happy to do embeded components first
- [01:35:27] <markmansour>
lets go for it
- [01:35:48] <markmansour>
I gotta say that I like embedded component, but I understand that it is much easier not allowing them
- [01:36:05] <briansuda>
Part of hCalendar was to be taken from ICAL Basic, which omitted them
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- [01:36:41] <briansuda>
i also know that vFreeBusy is exactly like vevent under a different rootname (vfreebusy instead of vevent)
- [01:36:42] <markmansour>
how much addoption has ical basic had?
- [01:37:24] <briansuda>
i honestly have not had much participation with it... i think the other question should be how much adoption has there been to the FULL iCal spec?
- [01:37:59] <markmansour>
And I don't know the answer to that. I haven't done much testing on Outlook or any other widespread calendar agent
- [01:38:01] <briansuda>
i know apple address book supports ToDo, alarms (not sure if it is valarms) and vevnts
- [01:38:29] <briansuda>
what do you have in mind with Q2's intent?
- [01:38:35] <markmansour>
there are two issues here, there are calendar components, and embedded components
- [01:39:11] <markmansour>
I like the idea of keeping components at the top level and for the moment, not including embedded components
- [01:39:40] <briansuda>
which are which? can you give a quick list of embedded vs. top level?
- [01:40:46] <markmansour>
you can have calendar -> { event, alarm } which is top level
- [01:41:02] <markmansour>
or you can have calendar -> {event -> { alarm } }
- [01:41:07] <markmansour>
(excuse the notation)
- [01:42:14] <briansuda>
you are advocating that each is independant of one another?
- [01:43:01] <markmansour>
From what I can see yes.
- [01:43:09] <markmansour>
a calendar could just have an alarm
- [01:43:17] <markmansour>
or a calendar could have and event/todo with an alarm
- [01:44:19] <briansuda>
OK, i think i understand... can we table that Question? i don't know how much other work has already been done with ICAL Basic.
- [01:44:31] <briansuda>
there is also references in HTML5 to hCalendar http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#scs-calendars
- [01:44:37] <markmansour>
That sounds like a good idea. We can do some research on it...
- [01:45:14] <briansuda>
i think it is certainly a good idea to pursue atleast Todos and Alarms... and possibly vfreebusy because there is no new decisions to be made there
- [01:45:36] <briansuda>
Can you note this on the Wiki afterwards?
- [01:45:55] <briansuda>
after the IRC chat i mean, not after you have done the research
- [01:46:01] <markmansour>
let me clarify
- [01:47:21] <markmansour>
we are saying it would be useful to have valarm, vtodo and vfreebsy as top level and embedded components, but more work needs to be done on this issue.
- [01:47:32] <markmansour>
The next steps should be to research ical basic and write up some tests?
- [01:48:30] <briansuda>
that is certainly needed, but i think more so is that we need to find examples in the wild.
- [01:48:50] <briansuda>
just because we build a valarm, doesn't mean it is used.
- [01:48:53] <markmansour>
I don't think we are going to find hcalendar examples in the wild, we may find ics examples
- [01:49:34] <briansuda>
I think there are a multitude of examples for todo's! take those and make sure they fit vToDos
- [01:50:02] <markmansour>
alright. I'll add that to the wiki - where ever it is appropriate
- [01:50:34] <briansuda>
http://www.tadalist.com/
- [01:51:04] <briansuda>
we don't need to find exact examples of hcalendars, just people publishing calendar type data, what and how they do it.
- [01:51:26] <markmansour>
alright. I'll look at tada and yahoo calendar/todo
- [01:51:45] <briansuda>
recently MF did some work with Resumes, not by hamemring out a spec, but by seeing what/how people already publish their CVs and modeled it off of that
- [01:52:04] <briansuda>
granted we have vToDo which is what our end result wants to be.
- [01:52:28] <markmansour>
I'll try to follow that model - keeping vtodo in mind
- [01:52:55] <markmansour>
shall we move on to 2? axis/headers?
- [01:53:19] <briansuda>
if you want, go ahead and start some wiki pages. there is a brief tutorial about getting started - i'll certainly help as well. This is something that can be rolled into X2V pretty easy
- [01:54:28] <markmansour>
well, that is a reasonable outsome to item 2. I don't really have a huge need for it, so I was hoping someone else with that desire would run with axis/headers
- [01:55:03] <briansuda>
Ryan and I have an example, he will dig-it up for you
- [01:55:29] <markmansour>
great. I guess we can move onto the last item... which is 1 - vcalendars as a class
- [01:55:49] <briansuda>
correct. I don't remember why, but i think we had a reason for not using it
- [01:56:06] <markmansour>
the + side is you can group multiple events into multiple calendars on a single page
- [01:56:17] <markmansour>
and you can add the method and calscale to each calendar
- [01:56:20] <briansuda>
it might be been because some applications do not have two calendars, so if the ics has two cals, it was lumped back onto one....
- [01:56:40] <markmansour>
calscale probably isn't too relevant since everyone is going to be using gregorian
- [01:56:42] <briansuda>
it might has also been our ignorance to the spec? or how people publish them
- [01:56:45] <markmansour>
but method is useful
- [01:56:59] <briansuda>
METHOD is optional unless you use Outlook!
- [01:57:06] <markmansour>
ahhh, outlook
- [01:57:26] <briansuda>
and as it stands without a class="vcalendar" there is no way to reference a method
- [01:57:53] <briansuda>
because class="method" is outside of vevent and is missed by X2V
- [01:57:56] <markmansour>
that is correct
- [01:58:16] <markmansour>
I guess the question is whether it is useful enough to create a vcalendar container for
- [01:58:20] <briansuda>
the HTML5 spec does use class="vcalendar"
- [01:58:56] <markmansour>
It also has a <calendar> tag, which may serve the same purpose
- [01:59:22] <markmansour>
from a
- [01:59:41] <markmansour>
from a 'neatness' point of view, I like vcalendar encapsulating mutliple events... it just seams cleaner
- [01:59:45] <markmansour>
code smells and all that
- [01:59:51] <briansuda>
i'm on the fence about class="vcalendar" making it required would break ALOT of stuff already out there
- [02:00:23] <briansuda>
can you write a pros/cons (we can list them here, now) and put them on the wiki too?
- [02:00:33] <briansuda>
PRO, method can be represented
- [02:00:45] <markmansour>
sure...
- [02:01:13] <briansuda>
PRO: multiple calendars
- [02:01:21] <briansuda>
CON, another element
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- [02:01:34] <markmansour>
CON: probably wont have multiple cals on the same page
- [02:01:38] <briansuda>
CON: implementations already existing could break
- [02:02:05] <briansuda>
we might get away with class="vcalendar" as optional, if it is not present then it is assumed that everything is one calednar
- [02:02:06] <markmansour>
Do you think the best page for all this stuff is the hcalendar-brainstorming page?
- [02:02:16] <markmansour>
I like that
- [02:02:25] <briansuda>
CON: i use the page <title> for calendar title, can't do that with multiple calendars?
- [02:02:51] <markmansour>
it does seems to add more complexity
- [02:02:54] <briansuda>
yeah, the brainstorming page would work
- [02:03:06] <markmansour>
And I'm really stuggling to justify the extra effort for this
- [02:03:15] <markmansour>
it's just the neatness stuff that eats at me
- [02:03:26] <briansuda>
CON/PRO: how many apps support multiple calendars?
- [02:03:53] <briansuda>
vCard does not have a 'root' element, each vCard is seperate just like each vevent is now
- [02:04:29] <markmansour>
it is assumed that all vcards belong in a single adress book then...
- [02:04:34] <briansuda>
pro/con: how would fragments work? can you reach into a calendar and pluck out a single event?
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- [02:05:35] <markmansour>
yup that is enough to get us going and to probably kill vcalendar
- [02:05:39] <markmansour>
:)
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- [02:06:02] <markmansour>
alright.. We've been here for over an hour now. It seems like the decent thing to do is wind it down
- [02:06:03] <briansuda>
Other than METHOD are there other properties of importance? and what really IS method?
- [02:06:18] <markmansour>
there aren't any other properies that are important
- [02:06:31] <briansuda>
at this point i think it is just you and i? and i'm free at the moment.
- [02:06:50] <markmansour>
ok... I'm still free
- [02:06:58] <markmansour>
lemme check on the ical root properties
- [02:07:00] <briansuda>
Then could we make a case to "Hard-code" METHOD to something? just like PRODID is 'hard-coded"
- [02:07:19] <markmansour>
the method values are not specified by the ical spec
- [02:07:40] <markmansour>
so we would have to use common calendar agent values as defaults ... i.e. outlook
- [02:09:05] <markmansour>
section 4.6 of ical (line 2824) mentions that the props are... calscale, method, prodid, version and x-prop
- [02:09:19] <briansuda>
i have read the definition of METHOD, but still don't really understand it
- [02:09:57] <markmansour>
as we've said ealier, prodid, calscale and version are pretty much hard coded (for all intense purposes or not needed)
- [02:10:04] <briansuda>
CALSCALE is not used or has a default, prodid is defined by the transforming application, version is defined by the PROFILE used for the microformat, so that leaves METHOD
- [02:10:09] <markmansour>
x-props are only for implements while testing
- [02:10:34] <briansuda>
i do use an X-PROP to pass the name of the calendar, but that is specific to Apple's iCal
- [02:10:38] <markmansour>
yes, we are down to method whose values are not defined by ical (4.7.2)
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- [02:11:51] <markmansour>
And method is really only needed by outlook
- [02:12:19] <markmansour>
I hard code it to PUBLISH if someone wants an ical for outlook
- [02:12:37] <briansuda>
Yes, so is there a way we can cheat and hard-code this to something... outlook doens't care what it is... we have tested FOOBAR, XYZ, etc and it takes them all
- [02:12:45] <markmansour>
but it is a valid property and user agents may require it
- [02:13:05] <markmansour>
the main issues I think is whether we want to preserve that piece of data
- [02:13:16] <markmansour>
or say it isn't important
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- [02:13:26] <jibot>
bewest is a student and has nebulous employment and owns siliconllama.com
- [02:13:36] <briansuda>
The spec says it is optional... but implementations disagree
- [02:13:54] <bewest>
hrm I should change that
- [02:14:07] <briansuda>
i'm for setting it to something like METHOD: GET (since it is a web service)
- [02:15:04] <markmansour>
I don't have a problem with that. Let's put it into the brainstorming page and test it out on several user agents
- [02:16:58] <markmansour>
I think that covers everything! unless you have anything else you'd like to go over?
- [02:17:11] <briansuda>
that's fine with me. I'm just more than slightly confused going through the spec because METHOD is not document as well as other properties
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- [02:18:02] <briansuda>
nope, so how shall we split the work? do you want to document the wiki. i'll stay on Ryan to get the testing site up on MF.org and i'll tweak X2V with Method
- [02:18:21] <briansuda>
or we can switch?
- [02:18:26] <markmansour>
just read a line that says of METHOD "If this property is not present in the iCalendar object, then a scheduling transaction MUST NOT be assumed"
- [02:18:56] <briansuda>
yes, but then what does "Scheduling transaction" mean?
- [02:19:29] <markmansour>
that phrase only appears in that one sentence... urgh
- [02:19:59] <markmansour>
I think it is saying... if you don't specifiy METHOD, then don't guess it
- [02:21:22] <briansuda>
by transaction i think of things like exchange servers, not importing an iCal file
- [02:21:52] <briansuda>
as if i have the ability to 'schedule' to your calendar
- [02:22:00] <markmansour>
What we are trying to work out (to summarise) is whether vcalendar is needed. If we don't have vcalendar we can't have calendar properties or which METHOD is potentially the only one we care about. And we are not even sure if METHOD is useful
- [02:22:54] <markmansour>
So to find out if METHOD is useful we need to see how calendar agents react if we drop the METHOD property
- [02:23:19] <markmansour>
if they don't care about it, then it means that vcalendar is less needed
- [02:23:39] <briansuda>
exactly, except i already know what happens when the most popular calendar app (outlook) doesn't see it
- [02:24:02] <markmansour>
and you are stating that most calendar agents don't care
- [02:24:09] <briansuda>
http://www.inkdroid.org/journal/2006/01/19/ical-and-outlook/
- [02:24:48] <markmansour>
what about other calendar agents?
- [02:25:10] <briansuda>
the only other big ones i know of are iCal (apple) and the linux one (evolition) i think and Mozilla Sun Bird. Those require a different set of depenancies, randing from UID to DTSTAMP
- [02:25:25] <markmansour>
but not METHOD?
- [02:26:01] <briansuda>
there is a list of mf.org, let me find it
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- [02:26:47] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/icalendar-implementations
- [02:26:57] <briansuda>
the results are pretty weak at the moment
- [02:27:30] <briansuda>
i know Apple iCal does NOT need METHOD, i subscribe to several hCalendars through it dynamically via X2V without METHOD
- [02:28:54] <markmansour>
so... we know METHOD is needed for outlook, the spec says not to guess what METHOD is...
- [02:29:11] <markmansour>
in the current hcal spec there is no way to define METHOD
- [02:29:14] <markmansour>
so...
- [02:29:46] <markmansour>
I reckon we override the ical spec and force the METHOD to a value.
- [02:30:08] <markmansour>
the ical spec is know to be not as precise as some would like, so I think this is a reasonable outcome
- [02:30:35] <markmansour>
GET, as you suggested, is a good value due to the use via web-services
- [02:30:49] <briansuda>
great!
- [02:31:01] <markmansour>
phew
- [02:31:02] <briansuda>
i'm sure alot of Outlook folks will be happy.
- [02:31:43] <markmansour>
do we have the 'authority' to add that to the hcalendar spec page, or is that something we should add to the brainstorming page and wait for a technorati person to move into the actual spec?
- [02:32:04] <briansuda>
um...
- [02:32:32] <markmansour>
I'm happy to put it on the brainstorming page, post to the mailing list and let the mailing list ratify it
- [02:32:38] <briansuda>
lets go ahead and add it straight to the spec and say something like "PENDING" and link to this conversation.
- [02:32:47] <markmansour>
ok
- [02:32:53] <briansuda>
i think we have already fairly strongly brainstormed this...
- [02:33:07] <markmansour>
yup... I agree
- [02:33:29] <briansuda>
i would just mark it as PENDING (note it somehow) so folks know it is still up for some discussion
- [02:33:41] <markmansour>
sure...
- [02:33:42] <briansuda>
and send a message to the list to solicite comments
- [02:34:04] <markmansour>
Now as far as answering item 1 goes, we are almost there... almost...
- [02:34:11] <briansuda>
there is a log of this chat online, you can link to that so people can read the background discussion... let me find the link
- [02:35:08] <markmansour>
we've said that METHOD will be hard coded to GET in .ics files, but we haven't said how/if it will be represented in xhtml.
- [02:35:31] <briansuda>
http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-02-25
- [02:35:43] <markmansour>
which again relies on the need for vcalendar
- [02:36:08] <briansuda>
if we want to represent it in XHTML, yes, vcalendar is somehow also needed
- [02:36:39] <markmansour>
but we have said that the loss of this information doesn't affect events/calendars
- [02:37:12] <briansuda>
you mean Method, or vcalendar
- [02:37:13] <markmansour>
so we could just be 'rude' and always override the METHOD value and therefore we wouldn't need vcalendar
- [02:37:47] <briansuda>
i think rude is ok. we are sort of doing that with the other properties anyway
- [02:37:51] <markmansour>
but we have said that the loss of METHOD information doesn't affect events/calendars
- [02:38:17] <briansuda>
it doesn't according to the spec, no.
- [02:38:32] <markmansour>
that's good. that works for the current scenario.
- [02:38:45] <markmansour>
so... vcalendar adds no value at this point so it isn't needed
- [02:39:12] <briansuda>
i think we have certainly moved far enough along to float it to the general community without problems
- [02:39:46] <briansuda>
correct, vcalendar, at this point, doesn't add much except the way to split into multiple calendars.
- [02:39:52] <markmansour>
the only issue I see coming up is if there are multiple calendars on a single page (especially if we start to mix in valarms and todos)
- [02:39:59] <markmansour>
and that is a future item
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- [02:40:24] <markmansour>
I think that item 1 is resolved.
- [02:40:40] <briansuda>
correct, and i know there are strong ties to 80/20 and multiple calendars might be outside that range
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- [02:41:03] <briansuda>
great, are there any more issues still open?
- [02:41:24] <markmansour>
item 1 - resolved - no vcalendars needed, METHOD to be hardcoded to GET
- [02:41:26] <briansuda>
3 i guess needs more discussion and homework
- [02:41:37] <markmansour>
item 2 - examples to be provided by briansuda and ryanking
- [02:42:18] <markmansour>
item 3 - as you said, for homework. how/are they being used in the wild. see tadalist/yahoo/others?
- [02:43:04] <markmansour>
item 4 - issue with fragment test raised. ryanking to provide better test. current hcalendar tests living at svn.lifelint.com/hcalendar_test/ to be moved to microformats.org
- [02:43:23] <markmansour>
item 5 - see resolution to item 4
- [02:43:33] <markmansour>
can you see anything that I missed?
- [02:43:56] <briansuda>
i think that covers it.
- [02:44:04] <briansuda>
now we can go away, do some work, but
- [02:44:19] <markmansour>
great. As you suggested earlier I'll update the wiki's if you can keep on ryans case.
- [02:44:21] <briansuda>
update the wiki and maybe schedule another IRC chat sometime in the future
- [02:44:41] <markmansour>
sure. does this time work for you, or would another time be better?
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- [02:44:47] <markmansour>
(time of the day that is)
- [02:45:49] <briansuda>
this is OK for me, but we might pick a different time for a better turn-out, i know there are a few conferences ending now, so people are probably otherwise engaged at the moment
- [02:46:19] <markmansour>
Not being in the right part of the world, I don't always know when conferences are on. Would you like to schedule the next meeting?
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- [02:46:40] <briansuda>
we can schedule things as needed, no need to pick a day now
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- [02:46:47] <markmansour>
alright then
- [02:47:50] <markmansour>
Well, I think we've done pretty well (if I do say so myself). I enjoyed working through these issues with the uF mob (even if there was only a handfull of us)
- [02:48:22] <briansuda>
it was enjoyable on this side as well, if anything pops-up feel free to email or grab me on IM
- [02:49:24] <markmansour>
brillant. It is a nice 25.7C (about 78F) here, so I'm going to go out and enjoy the day (after updating the wiki).
- [02:49:25] <markmansour>
bye
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- [04:09:10] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5160 * Mark Mansour * (+18)
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- [05:43:14] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-issues]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-issues&diff=0&oldid=5161 * Mark Mansour * (+62)
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- [06:43:46] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-irc-meetup-20060225]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-irc-meetup-20060225 * Mark Mansour * (+3347)
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- [07:41:19] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-03-01-w3c-plenary-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-03-01-w3c-plenary-microformats&diff=0&oldid=5162 * DanC * (+147) linked my slides
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- [08:42:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [08:42:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [08:42:59] <tantek>
btw, in case folks are listening, the we05.com program.cfm example uses AXIS and HEADERS in the wild
- [08:43:11] <tantek>
re: hCalendar questions from 6+ hours ago
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- [13:08:44] <mfbot>
[[hatom-hints]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints&diff=0&oldid=5163 * RobertBachmann * (+17) Added out-of-date marker
- [13:23:41] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5164 * DavidJanes * (+7) Moved heading levels, as per hReview
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[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5165 * DavidJanes * (-15) Format -
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- [13:25:57] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [13:29:48] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5166 * DavidJanes * (-262) Categories and Tags -
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[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5167 * DavidJanes * (+1077) Added Feed Category and Entry Category
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[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5168 * DavidJanes * (+20) Field and Element Details -
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amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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[[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5169 * RobertBachmann * (-435) Recent Changes - Removed, because it's outdated
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- [16:24:54] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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[[presentations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=5170 * Tantek * (+55) this year -
- [17:01:17] <amanuel>
has anyone thought of an interview microformat?
- [17:02:59] <amanuel>
it would allow the gathering of all interviews, and statements made by someone about something
- [17:03:10] <tantek>
amanuel, does any publish such things on the web today?
- [17:03:20] <tantek>
see if you can find some examples in the wild of what you are talking about
- [17:03:42] <amanuel>
lots of news articles have interviews
- [17:03:50] <amanuel>
emily chang's site for example
- [17:04:44] * amanuel interviews have a distinct pattern
- [17:04:57] <tantek>
are you talking about press interviews in particular?
- [17:05:22] <amanuel>
no a story where someone has posted Q & A session with someone
- [17:05:39] <tantek>
well that's kind of what a press interview is
- [17:05:48] <tantek>
or perhaps a "public interview"
- [17:05:51] <amanuel>
yes iit is
- [17:06:24] <amanuel>
the point is there is a structure to that form of writing
- [17:06:41] <tantek>
it is more than just <ol> + <li> + <cite> + <blockquote> ?
- [17:06:49] <tantek>
s/it is/is it
- [17:07:01] <amanuel>
no not much more than that
- [17:07:10] <tantek>
plus perhaps hCards to identify the people/speakers
- [17:07:18] <tantek>
<cite class="vcard"> etc.
- [17:07:22] <amanuel>
yes that's what I was thinking
- [17:07:46] <tantek>
seems like a good pattern to write up, just use of existing semantic XHTML and hCard
- [17:07:48] <amanuel>
and the include thing you were talking about could bring in the references of the interview
- [17:08:14] <tantek>
i'm not sure i understand what you mean by references in this context
- [17:08:25] <tantek>
seems like plain hyperlinks would be sufficient for that
- [17:09:50] <amanuel>
well if the person mentioned in the interview like AJAX or something, an include could be added to bring in glossary terms or reference
- [17:10:13] <amanuel>
to specific article or document
- [17:10:50] <tantek>
a hyperlink to the glossary term / reference should be sufficient
- [17:11:09] <amanuel>
yeah i suppose
- [17:11:13] <tantek>
it's not like you're trying to get that glossary definition parsed by a microformat
- [17:11:40] <tantek>
the include is only for cases where the microformat requires the data be there, but authors don't author it that way because the data is somewhere else on the page
- [17:11:53] <tantek>
stick with the simplest solution/tool you can use
- [17:12:05] <amanuel>
i see
- [17:12:07] <tantek>
in this case, the standard hyperlink is sufficient
- [17:12:22] <tantek>
probably in most cases
- [17:13:10] <amanuel>
yeah, I can also see case where hInterview could be used to format irc transcripts
- [17:13:30] <amanuel>
what do you think of that?
- [17:13:33] <tantek>
only if the irc transcript is an interview
- [17:13:54] <tantek>
there's much more to an irc transcript than an interview
- [17:14:09] <amanuel>
right keep it simple, and focused.
- [17:14:12] <tantek>
if you want to look at marking up irc transcripts, take a look at chat-examples
- [17:14:26] <tantek>
there's been a bunch of work done on trying to research and figure that out
- [17:15:53] <amanuel>
yeah I have followed some of that....when I thought of hInterview was to handle official 'interviews' which usaually are a part of a news story or something.
- [17:17:20] <amanuel>
so you think it's worth pursuing?
- [17:18:29] <amanuel>
I gotta go we talk later.
- [17:18:46] <tantek>
not sure if it is worth pursuing
- [17:18:51] <tantek>
what problem are you trying to solve?
- [17:19:14] <tantek>
what user benefit / feature would be enabled if the interview were marked up with more details?
- [17:19:19] <mfbot>
[[xfolk-profile]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-profile&diff=0&oldid=5171 * RobertBachmann * (+32) Repaced "extended" w/ <code>description</code>
- [17:20:09] <amanuel>
I want to search all cases where someone has said something
- [17:20:15] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=5172 * Tantek * (-156) undo corruption from vandal Serginandr on 07:53, 6 Jan 2006
- [17:20:18] <amanuel>
about a topic
- [17:20:26] <tantek>
ah good
- [17:20:45] <tantek>
but people say things outside of the context of interviews
- [17:21:00] <tantek>
in fact, to solve the problem of looking where people say things
- [17:21:08] <tantek>
it seems the only thing you need is <cite> + hCard
- [17:21:11] <amanuel>
yes but in case of interviews it is what they actually said
- [17:21:23] <tantek>
<cite> meaning a reference to someone saying something
- [17:21:31] <tantek>
and hCard telling you who
- [17:21:53] <amanuel>
yep that is enough almost.
- [17:21:58] <tantek>
amanuel, on the web, interviews are no different than any other kinds of quotes
- [17:22:16] <tantek>
"what they actually said" is left up to the quality of the site
- [17:22:22] <tantek>
or publication
- [17:22:36] <amanuel>
true
- [17:22:55] <tantek>
but even "high quality" publications such as newspapers, and popular print magazines take quotes out of context, or "approximate" what people say
- [17:22:56] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:search-results-example": Spammer created
- [17:23:30] <tantek>
thus an "interview" is no more trustworthy than just a random quote by someone published somewhere
- [17:23:52] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:Main Page-fr": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:why-are-content-standards-hard": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:rest/examples": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:xmdp-faq": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:wiki-formats": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:chat-examples": Spammer created
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[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:rel-directory": Spammer created
- [17:25:04] <amanuel>
I have been reading a lot of news lately and in most cases you have quotes, and interviews that are structures or patterns that could be detected
- [17:25:06] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/delete]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/delete&diff=0&oldid=0 * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "hbib": Spammer created
- [17:25:39] <amanuel>
i suppose <cite> would suffice
- [17:25:47] <amanuel>
with <hcard>
- [17:26:35] <amanuel>
tantek: I'll think about it some more but will be back later...wife is gonna kill me if I stay any longer
- [17:27:20] <tantek>
the one challenge is finding the associated <q> or <blockquote> for the <cite>
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- [17:32:44] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [17:46:22] <RobertBachmann>
Tantek, currently links to implemenations are scattered accross the wiki.
- [17:46:22] <RobertBachmann>
Maybe we could collect them on one page (wiki/implementations) and let the spec pages point to the apropriate section (e.g: wiki/implementations#hCard)?
- [17:46:51] <tantek>
i'm not sure the duplication is a bad thing
- [17:47:03] <tantek>
i think it makes sense for each spec to list the implementations of it
- [17:47:18] <tantek>
but i also think it makes sense to list the implementations as a whole in one place
- [17:47:21] <RobertBachmann>
why, duplicating?
- [17:47:25] <tantek>
but not broken up by spec
- [17:47:30] <tantek>
the reason is two different presentations
- [17:47:41] <tantek>
think of implementations that implement 3 different microformats
- [17:47:58] <tantek>
people working on one of those microformats in particular will want to know about just the implementations for that microformat
- [17:48:03] <tantek>
without having to go hunt for it
- [17:48:04] <tantek>
OTOH
- [17:48:17] <tantek>
people also want to look for implementations "in general"
- [17:48:41] <tantek>
on the implementations page, such an implementation would only be listed once, with the microformats it supports following it perhaps as a list
- [17:49:12] <tantek>
basically, people look for the same information differently depending on what they are in particular looking for
- [17:52:18] <RobertBachmann>
I see.
- [17:52:38] <tantek>
if anything, we need to make it *easier* for folks to find stuff on the wiki
- [17:52:44] <tantek>
which can be done somewhat with links
- [17:52:48] <tantek>
but sometimes requires duplication
- [17:52:57] <tantek>
it is worth reevaluating from time to time
- [17:53:08] <tantek>
see the whole thread on suggestions for wiki redesign etc.
- [17:53:16] <tantek>
(on microformats-discuss)
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- [18:00:48] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=5173 * DavidJanes * (-3) Entry -
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- [18:03:59] <RobertBachmann>
A big problem with duplication is that if the description of an implemenation is to be changed we must change it on all places, maybee Mediawiki templates could help us out.
- [18:04:15] <tantek>
if templates weren't such a PITA to use
- [18:04:29] <tantek>
the effort to use templates is FAR greater than duplicating information once
- [18:04:53] <tantek>
and the duplication in this instance is not subject to the problem you mention
- [18:05:05] <tantek>
if an implementation implements hCard and hCalendar for example
- [18:05:18] <tantek>
then the implemeter should list in the implementations sections in both those specs
- [18:05:35] <tantek>
and on the implementations page, listing hCard and hCalendar as the technologies supported
- [18:05:57] <tantek>
if that implementation now adds hReview support (a change in description)
- [18:06:08] <tantek>
then the information does not need to change on the hCard page
- [18:06:11] <tantek>
nor on the hCalendar page
- [18:06:20] <tantek>
only on the implementations page
- [18:06:37] <tantek>
and a *new* entry must be entered on the hReview page, in its implementations section
- [18:07:05] <tantek>
thus your generalization about "big problem with duplication", though may in theory be possible, in practice in the examples we have, is not a problem
- [18:19:22] <RobertBachmann>
I was thinking about the cases were something like ''This does not work with FireFox 1.5+/GreaseMonkey 0.6.4+.'' is used as part of the description, in that case
- [18:19:22] <RobertBachmann>
all descriptions of that implemtation would have to be changed.
- [18:19:23] <RobertBachmann>
Unfortunalty, as you said, templates are quite laborious to use.
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- [18:28:17] <tantek>
I think descriptions like that are to be avoided, except perhaps on the implementations page
- [18:28:25] <tantek>
on the spec pages, simply linking to the
- [18:28:46] <tantek>
naming/linking to the implementations is sufficient (with perhaps a link to the blog post where they were found or announced)
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- [18:47:29] <jibot>
blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at swarthmore.edu and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
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- [18:51:01] <mfbot>
[[presentations]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=presentations&diff=0&oldid=5174 * Tantek * (+6) this year -
- [18:56:26] <tantek>
greetings folks
- [18:56:49] <tantek>
anyone here available to help out with adding hCard and hCalendar to the speakers/session/agenda pages of some upcoming conferences?
- [18:59:12] <tantek>
e.g. let's start with this one page: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html
- [19:04:22] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@M2426P029.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [19:04:22] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [19:04:40] <tantek>
hi Robert
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- [19:19:56] <jibot>
limbo_ is Eran and blogs at http://hellonline.com/blog/
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- [19:42:27] <RobertBachmann>
hi Tantek. Is Mashup camp already over?
- [19:42:44] <RobertBachmann>
our does it last more than one day?
- [19:48:12] <tantek>
heh, indeed
- [19:48:30] <tantek>
robert, would you like to try adding hCard and hCalendar to some pages?
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- [19:49:46] <RobertBachmann>
yes, what pages?
- [19:49:57] <tantek>
let's start with this one page: http://www.w3.org/2006/03/01-TechPlenAgenda.html
- [19:50:23] <tantek>
bbiab
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- [20:19:59] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
- [20:20:15] <RobertBachmann>
ok I'm starting with adding hcards
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- [21:04:43] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [21:09:18] * bkdelong (n=bkdelong@h-67-102-164-116.cmbrmaor.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [21:09:18] <jibot>
bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - http://www.haloworldwide.com. Web: http://www.brain-stream.com. Email: bkdelong@pobox.com and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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- [22:09:02] <RobertBachmann>
Tantek, I've added hcards to 01-TechPlenAgenda.html
- [22:09:03] <RobertBachmann>
Diff: <http://pastebin.com/572398> XHTML: <http://pastebin.com/572402>
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- [22:22:16] <RobertBachmann>
ah cool, pastbin has built in support for diffs <http://uf.pastebin.com/pastebin.php?diff=572417>
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- [23:22:23] <jibot>
andyhume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at http://thedredge.org/ and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see http://thedredge.org/2005/06/using-hcards-in-your-blog/ for details)
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- [23:45:16] <Jonnay>
Hello everyone.
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