IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-02-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  3. [00:03:53] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - Web: Email: and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
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  7. [00:18:24] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
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  10. [00:22:05] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  14. [00:25:04] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at
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  18. [00:40:03] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at
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  21. [00:53:15] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <>
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  23. [00:58:53] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] * Mark Mansour * (+1754) Notes for the hCalendar IRC meetup
  24. [00:58:56] <markmansour> hello people.
  25. [00:59:44] <markmansour> Is there anyone here for the hCalendar IRC meetup? The notes posted (on the 17th of Feb) for the agenda have been added t the hCalendar-issues page
  26. [01:00:10] <briansuda> i'm here and reviewing the notes at the moment
  27. [01:00:27] * bkdelong ( Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  28. [01:00:38] <markmansour> Hi Brian, great to see you could make it
  29. [01:01:47] <markmansour> if you are lurking around the channel feel free to say "hi"
  30. [01:03:06] <briansuda> have you read or seen the proposal for the <object class="include" data="#">? it might overlap with your fragment post
  31. [01:03:07] <KevinMarks> hi
  32. [01:03:17] <markmansour> Hi Kevin
  33. [01:03:25] <markmansour> brian: no I haven't read that.
  34. [01:03:30] <markmansour> I'll have a look now
  35. [01:03:41] <briansuda> actually, i don't think it is the same thing, but worth reading anyway
  36. [01:05:06] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
  37. [01:05:13] <briansuda> as for you fragment post, are you referencing the ability to use IDs to extract a single event/person from a list?
  38. [01:05:21] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  39. [01:05:30] <markmansour> Kevin, what is the usual etiquette for starting these meeting?
  40. [01:05:52] <markmansour> wait 5 - 10 mins? or just get into it?
  41. [01:06:57] <markmansour> brain: I'm referring to the hcard-parsing spec that says "If the URL has a fragment identifier, then the parser should parse only the node indicated by the fragment identifier and its descendants, looking for hCards, starting with the indicated node, which may itself be a single hCard."
  42. [01:07:49] <markmansour> if you look at the example given, which seems to be a typical use of fragments, then there are no decendants to "myfrag"
  43. [01:08:15] <briansuda> OK, then the way I handle it is to look for a class="vcard|vevent" on THAT node or a child, not an ancestor.
  44. [01:09:22] <briansuda> i'm not sure what you expect to happen with your example?
  45. [01:09:29] <markmansour> so the correct way to use a fragment with vcard|event is ... <a name="myfrag" class="vevent"><div class="dtstart">2005-06-23</div></a>?
  46. [01:09:41] <markmansour> brian: the example is bad, let me fix it up
  47. [01:11:19] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] * Mark Mansour * (+70)
  48. [01:11:37] <briansuda> in my code i first find all class="vcard" then test to see if they have an ID= #fragment, if they do i continue to parse it, otherwise it is skipped
  49. [01:11:38] <markmansour> that should make it clearer
  50. [01:12:36] <briansuda> well in that case nothing would happen because there is no child elements of hCard, hCard is a sibling in that example
  51. [01:13:01] <briansuda> vevent not hCard.
  52. [01:13:02] <markmansour> ID=#fragment??? I'm not quite following you... Could you give me an example?
  53. [01:13:09] <briansuda> sure
  54. [01:13:14] <briansuda> <div class="vevent">
  55. [01:13:15] <briansuda> <div class="description">A nice event</div>
  56. [01:13:15] <briansuda> <abbr class="dtstart" title="2005-10-05">October 5</abbr>
  57. [01:13:15] <briansuda> </div>
  58. [01:13:27] <briansuda> sorry, paste didn't work that time...
  59. [01:13:31] <markmansour> :)
  60. [01:13:49] <briansuda> <div class="vevent" id="myfragment">...</div>
  61. [01:14:01] <briansuda> the ref URL would be foobar.html#myfragment
  62. [01:14:06] <markmansour> so a fragment is not a HTML fragment, but the id of an element
  63. [01:14:41] <briansuda> (some one corret me if i am wrong) but in XHTML name is depricated on everything but form elements
  64. [01:14:43] * kingryan|away is now known as kingryan
  65. [01:15:15] <markmansour> I'm not 100% sure. Maybe someone else who is here knows
  66. [01:15:49] <briansuda> i think "fragment" is in reference to a portion of the DOM Tree which is explicitly referenced by the ID
  67. [01:16:31] <markmansour>
  68. [01:16:44] <markmansour> says "estination anchors in HTML documents may be specified either by the A element (naming it with the name attribute), or by any other element (naming with the id attribute)."
  69. [01:17:00] * factoryjoe ( has joined #microformats
  70. [01:17:26] <briansuda> either way, you will need to wrap the microformat in some sort of "container" be it a DIV or P or something else, if you want to use 'A' then you'd still have to "wrap" the microformat in it (which is not always what is called-for)
  71. [01:19:09] <kingryan> name is deprecated on all but form elements
  72. [01:19:10] <markmansour> that is how the calendar-fragment.xml test works now.. Would you like to check that it is correct?
  73. [01:19:19] <kingryan> the proper way to do it is to refer to an @id
  74. [01:19:20] <markmansour> thanks ryan.
  75. [01:19:36] <markmansour> that means the hCal test need to be updated.
  76. [01:19:44] <kingryan> yes
  77. [01:19:57] <kingryan> we need to get together on the test stuff
  78. [01:20:02] <kingryan> I have some I need to add
  79. [01:20:19] <briansuda> Yes, that test needs to be changed in two ways... first you can easily swap NAME for ID
  80. [01:20:42] <markmansour> If you already have some made up would you like them added to the current collection of hcal tests?
  81. [01:20:43] <briansuda> secondly, class="vcard url" needs to be broken up, class="url" needs to be a child of class="vcard"
  82. [01:21:13] <markmansour> ryan - that's great
  83. [01:21:53] <kingryan> mark, I sent you an email earlier about this, too
  84. [01:22:04] <briansuda> Ryan: you know where the sample vevents we marked-up with AXIS/HEADERS are? i don't think they were ever public?
  85. [01:22:42] <kingryan> no, they weren't, but I have them
  86. [01:23:03] <briansuda> Mark was looking for examples of AXIS/HEADER as well
  87. [01:23:17] <kingryan> I'm not sure where they are, but I can find them later
  88. [01:23:28] <kingryan> I can't stick around long, I'm about to head out
  89. [01:23:49] <markmansour> Is there anything else you want to get through before you head off.. I'm not too limited on time at the moment
  90. [01:25:28] <markmansour> brain: the class="vcard url" - what is that in relation to?
  91. [01:26:16] <briansuda> the link to the test case you sent
  92. [01:26:45] <markmansour> ah... yes... ok.
  93. [01:27:17] <markmansour> so what I am hearing from you both is the calendar-fragment tests are just wrong and that ryan has new tests that would be more compliant by using @ids.
  94. [01:28:01] <briansuda> the test is incorrect, i can correct it and email it you along with other contributions
  95. [01:28:15] <markmansour> thanks brain
  96. [01:28:18] <markmansour> brian even :)
  97. [01:29:32] <markmansour> ryan has offered to host the hcalendar test at microformats and I would like to take him up on that.
  98. [01:29:40] <kingryan> coolio
  99. [01:29:51] <kingryan> we can put it in svn there, too
  100. [01:29:56] <markmansour> that would be fab
  101. [01:29:59] <kingryan> so that collab will be a bit easier
  102. [01:30:05] <markmansour> all for it
  103. [01:30:09] <kingryan> I've also got some rake scripts for building tests
  104. [01:30:30] <markmansour> I'm not familiar with rake scripts. I'm assuming they are some sort of testing harness
  105. [01:30:42] <kingryan> "ruby make"
  106. [01:30:47] <markmansour> nice
  107. [01:30:53] <kingryan> builds source urls and stuff
  108. [01:30:58] <kingryan> and prodids
  109. [01:31:39] <markmansour> Well, the svn tests at are easily accessible, so would you just like to rip them off there and add them to a uf svn server?
  110. [01:31:48] <briansuda> yeah, if we could get all TESTS on MF that would be great - i know there has always been talk of SVN at MF
  111. [01:32:00] <markmansour> they could probably do with some restructing
  112. [01:32:15] <kingryan> yeah, we've got a couple kinds of tests...
  113. [01:32:28] <kingryan> ones from the rfc's, trivial ones and ones from the wild
  114. [01:33:12] <markmansour> I've kinda got the same thing. The component-* events are trivial, the calendar-* events have inter-related fields, and itw-* are "in the wild" :)
  115. [01:33:40] <briansuda> OK, so does that help with some of your Q's from the Wiki? which are still outstanding?
  116. [01:33:47] <markmansour> I'll freeze my additions to these tests if you can get them into a publically accessible svn server
  117. [01:34:23] <markmansour> outstanding are still 1, 2, 3
  118. [01:34:38] <markmansour> let's take 1 first. SHould vcalendar be a hCal class
  119. [01:34:44] <briansuda> OK lets talk 3, embeded components...
  120. [01:34:52] <kingryan> I gotta run
  121. [01:35:01] <kingryan> feel free to email if you have any Q's for me
  122. [01:35:07] <briansuda> will do.
  123. [01:35:09] <markmansour> ok ryan. I'll email you
  124. [01:35:23] <markmansour> I'm happy to do embeded components first
  125. [01:35:27] <markmansour> lets go for it
  126. [01:35:48] <markmansour> I gotta say that I like embedded component, but I understand that it is much easier not allowing them
  127. [01:36:05] <briansuda> Part of hCalendar was to be taken from ICAL Basic, which omitted them
  128. [01:36:10] * kingryan is now known as kingryan|afk
  129. [01:36:41] <briansuda> i also know that vFreeBusy is exactly like vevent under a different rootname (vfreebusy instead of vevent)
  130. [01:36:42] <markmansour> how much addoption has ical basic had?
  131. [01:37:24] <briansuda> i honestly have not had much participation with it... i think the other question should be how much adoption has there been to the FULL iCal spec?
  132. [01:37:59] <markmansour> And I don't know the answer to that. I haven't done much testing on Outlook or any other widespread calendar agent
  133. [01:38:01] <briansuda> i know apple address book supports ToDo, alarms (not sure if it is valarms) and vevnts
  134. [01:38:29] <briansuda> what do you have in mind with Q2's intent?
  135. [01:38:35] <markmansour> there are two issues here, there are calendar components, and embedded components
  136. [01:39:11] <markmansour> I like the idea of keeping components at the top level and for the moment, not including embedded components
  137. [01:39:40] <briansuda> which are which? can you give a quick list of embedded vs. top level?
  138. [01:40:46] <markmansour> you can have calendar -> { event, alarm } which is top level
  139. [01:41:02] <markmansour> or you can have calendar -> {event -> { alarm } }
  140. [01:41:07] <markmansour> (excuse the notation)
  141. [01:42:14] <briansuda> you are advocating that each is independant of one another?
  142. [01:43:01] <markmansour> From what I can see yes.
  143. [01:43:09] <markmansour> a calendar could just have an alarm
  144. [01:43:17] <markmansour> or a calendar could have and event/todo with an alarm
  145. [01:44:19] <briansuda> OK, i think i understand... can we table that Question? i don't know how much other work has already been done with ICAL Basic.
  146. [01:44:31] <briansuda> there is also references in HTML5 to hCalendar
  147. [01:44:37] <markmansour> That sounds like a good idea. We can do some research on it...
  148. [01:45:14] <briansuda> i think it is certainly a good idea to pursue atleast Todos and Alarms... and possibly vfreebusy because there is no new decisions to be made there
  149. [01:45:36] <briansuda> Can you note this on the Wiki afterwards?
  150. [01:45:55] <briansuda> after the IRC chat i mean, not after you have done the research
  151. [01:46:01] <markmansour> let me clarify
  152. [01:47:21] <markmansour> we are saying it would be useful to have valarm, vtodo and vfreebsy as top level and embedded components, but more work needs to be done on this issue.
  153. [01:47:32] <markmansour> The next steps should be to research ical basic and write up some tests?
  154. [01:48:30] <briansuda> that is certainly needed, but i think more so is that we need to find examples in the wild.
  155. [01:48:50] <briansuda> just because we build a valarm, doesn't mean it is used.
  156. [01:48:53] <markmansour> I don't think we are going to find hcalendar examples in the wild, we may find ics examples
  157. [01:49:34] <briansuda> I think there are a multitude of examples for todo's! take those and make sure they fit vToDos
  158. [01:50:02] <markmansour> alright. I'll add that to the wiki - where ever it is appropriate
  159. [01:50:34] <briansuda>
  160. [01:51:04] <briansuda> we don't need to find exact examples of hcalendars, just people publishing calendar type data, what and how they do it.
  161. [01:51:26] <markmansour> alright. I'll look at tada and yahoo calendar/todo
  162. [01:51:45] <briansuda> recently MF did some work with Resumes, not by hamemring out a spec, but by seeing what/how people already publish their CVs and modeled it off of that
  163. [01:52:04] <briansuda> granted we have vToDo which is what our end result wants to be.
  164. [01:52:28] <markmansour> I'll try to follow that model - keeping vtodo in mind
  165. [01:52:55] <markmansour> shall we move on to 2? axis/headers?
  166. [01:53:19] <briansuda> if you want, go ahead and start some wiki pages. there is a brief tutorial about getting started - i'll certainly help as well. This is something that can be rolled into X2V pretty easy
  167. [01:54:28] <markmansour> well, that is a reasonable outsome to item 2. I don't really have a huge need for it, so I was hoping someone else with that desire would run with axis/headers
  168. [01:55:03] <briansuda> Ryan and I have an example, he will dig-it up for you
  169. [01:55:29] <markmansour> great. I guess we can move onto the last item... which is 1 - vcalendars as a class
  170. [01:55:49] <briansuda> correct. I don't remember why, but i think we had a reason for not using it
  171. [01:56:06] <markmansour> the + side is you can group multiple events into multiple calendars on a single page
  172. [01:56:17] <markmansour> and you can add the method and calscale to each calendar
  173. [01:56:20] <briansuda> it might be been because some applications do not have two calendars, so if the ics has two cals, it was lumped back onto one....
  174. [01:56:40] <markmansour> calscale probably isn't too relevant since everyone is going to be using gregorian
  175. [01:56:42] <briansuda> it might has also been our ignorance to the spec? or how people publish them
  176. [01:56:45] <markmansour> but method is useful
  177. [01:56:59] <briansuda> METHOD is optional unless you use Outlook!
  178. [01:57:06] <markmansour> ahhh, outlook
  179. [01:57:26] <briansuda> and as it stands without a class="vcalendar" there is no way to reference a method
  180. [01:57:53] <briansuda> because class="method" is outside of vevent and is missed by X2V
  181. [01:57:56] <markmansour> that is correct
  182. [01:58:16] <markmansour> I guess the question is whether it is useful enough to create a vcalendar container for
  183. [01:58:20] <briansuda> the HTML5 spec does use class="vcalendar"
  184. [01:58:56] <markmansour> It also has a <calendar> tag, which may serve the same purpose
  185. [01:59:22] <markmansour> from a
  186. [01:59:41] <markmansour> from a 'neatness' point of view, I like vcalendar encapsulating mutliple events... it just seams cleaner
  187. [01:59:45] <markmansour> code smells and all that
  188. [01:59:51] <briansuda> i'm on the fence about class="vcalendar" making it required would break ALOT of stuff already out there
  189. [02:00:23] <briansuda> can you write a pros/cons (we can list them here, now) and put them on the wiki too?
  190. [02:00:33] <briansuda> PRO, method can be represented
  191. [02:00:45] <markmansour> sure...
  192. [02:01:13] <briansuda> PRO: multiple calendars
  193. [02:01:21] <briansuda> CON, another element
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  195. [02:01:34] <markmansour> CON: probably wont have multiple cals on the same page
  196. [02:01:38] <briansuda> CON: implementations already existing could break
  197. [02:02:05] <briansuda> we might get away with class="vcalendar" as optional, if it is not present then it is assumed that everything is one calednar
  198. [02:02:06] <markmansour> Do you think the best page for all this stuff is the hcalendar-brainstorming page?
  199. [02:02:16] <markmansour> I like that
  200. [02:02:25] <briansuda> CON: i use the page <title> for calendar title, can't do that with multiple calendars?
  201. [02:02:51] <markmansour> it does seems to add more complexity
  202. [02:02:54] <briansuda> yeah, the brainstorming page would work
  203. [02:03:06] <markmansour> And I'm really stuggling to justify the extra effort for this
  204. [02:03:15] <markmansour> it's just the neatness stuff that eats at me
  205. [02:03:26] <briansuda> CON/PRO: how many apps support multiple calendars?
  206. [02:03:53] <briansuda> vCard does not have a 'root' element, each vCard is seperate just like each vevent is now
  207. [02:04:29] <markmansour> it is assumed that all vcards belong in a single adress book then...
  208. [02:04:34] <briansuda> pro/con: how would fragments work? can you reach into a calendar and pluck out a single event?
  209. [02:04:54] * kingryan|afk ( Quit ()
  210. [02:05:35] <markmansour> yup that is enough to get us going and to probably kill vcalendar
  211. [02:05:39] <markmansour> :)
  212. [02:05:43] * foolswisdom (n=lloyd@ Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  213. [02:06:02] <markmansour> alright.. We've been here for over an hour now. It seems like the decent thing to do is wind it down
  214. [02:06:03] <briansuda> Other than METHOD are there other properties of importance? and what really IS method?
  215. [02:06:18] <markmansour> there aren't any other properies that are important
  216. [02:06:31] <briansuda> at this point i think it is just you and i? and i'm free at the moment.
  217. [02:06:50] <markmansour> ok... I'm still free
  218. [02:06:58] <markmansour> lemme check on the ical root properties
  219. [02:07:00] <briansuda> Then could we make a case to "Hard-code" METHOD to something? just like PRODID is 'hard-coded"
  220. [02:07:19] <markmansour> the method values are not specified by the ical spec
  221. [02:07:40] <markmansour> so we would have to use common calendar agent values as defaults ... i.e. outlook
  222. [02:09:05] <markmansour> section 4.6 of ical (line 2824) mentions that the props are... calscale, method, prodid, version and x-prop
  223. [02:09:19] <briansuda> i have read the definition of METHOD, but still don't really understand it
  224. [02:09:57] <markmansour> as we've said ealier, prodid, calscale and version are pretty much hard coded (for all intense purposes or not needed)
  225. [02:10:04] <briansuda> CALSCALE is not used or has a default, prodid is defined by the transforming application, version is defined by the PROFILE used for the microformat, so that leaves METHOD
  226. [02:10:09] <markmansour> x-props are only for implements while testing
  227. [02:10:34] <briansuda> i do use an X-PROP to pass the name of the calendar, but that is specific to Apple's iCal
  228. [02:10:38] <markmansour> yes, we are down to method whose values are not defined by ical (4.7.2)
  229. [02:10:38] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  230. [02:11:35] * tantek ( Quit ()
  231. [02:11:51] <markmansour> And method is really only needed by outlook
  232. [02:12:19] <markmansour> I hard code it to PUBLISH if someone wants an ical for outlook
  233. [02:12:37] <briansuda> Yes, so is there a way we can cheat and hard-code this to something... outlook doens't care what it is... we have tested FOOBAR, XYZ, etc and it takes them all
  234. [02:12:45] <markmansour> but it is a valid property and user agents may require it
  235. [02:13:05] <markmansour> the main issues I think is whether we want to preserve that piece of data
  236. [02:13:16] <markmansour> or say it isn't important
  237. [02:13:26] * bewest ( has joined #microformats
  238. [02:13:26] <jibot> bewest is a student and has nebulous employment and owns
  239. [02:13:36] <briansuda> The spec says it is optional... but implementations disagree
  240. [02:13:54] <bewest> hrm I should change that
  241. [02:14:07] <briansuda> i'm for setting it to something like METHOD: GET (since it is a web service)
  242. [02:15:04] <markmansour> I don't have a problem with that. Let's put it into the brainstorming page and test it out on several user agents
  243. [02:16:58] <markmansour> I think that covers everything! unless you have anything else you'd like to go over?
  244. [02:17:11] <briansuda> that's fine with me. I'm just more than slightly confused going through the spec because METHOD is not document as well as other properties
  245. [02:17:48] * limbo_ ( Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  246. [02:18:02] <briansuda> nope, so how shall we split the work? do you want to document the wiki. i'll stay on Ryan to get the testing site up on and i'll tweak X2V with Method
  247. [02:18:21] <briansuda> or we can switch?
  248. [02:18:26] <markmansour> just read a line that says of METHOD "If this property is not present in the iCalendar object, then a scheduling transaction MUST NOT be assumed"
  249. [02:18:56] <briansuda> yes, but then what does "Scheduling transaction" mean?
  250. [02:19:29] <markmansour> that phrase only appears in that one sentence... urgh
  251. [02:19:59] <markmansour> I think it is saying... if you don't specifiy METHOD, then don't guess it
  252. [02:21:22] <briansuda> by transaction i think of things like exchange servers, not importing an iCal file
  253. [02:21:52] <briansuda> as if i have the ability to 'schedule' to your calendar
  254. [02:22:00] <markmansour> What we are trying to work out (to summarise) is whether vcalendar is needed. If we don't have vcalendar we can't have calendar properties or which METHOD is potentially the only one we care about. And we are not even sure if METHOD is useful
  255. [02:22:54] <markmansour> So to find out if METHOD is useful we need to see how calendar agents react if we drop the METHOD property
  256. [02:23:19] <markmansour> if they don't care about it, then it means that vcalendar is less needed
  257. [02:23:39] <briansuda> exactly, except i already know what happens when the most popular calendar app (outlook) doesn't see it
  258. [02:24:02] <markmansour> and you are stating that most calendar agents don't care
  259. [02:24:09] <briansuda>
  260. [02:24:48] <markmansour> what about other calendar agents?
  261. [02:25:10] <briansuda> the only other big ones i know of are iCal (apple) and the linux one (evolition) i think and Mozilla Sun Bird. Those require a different set of depenancies, randing from UID to DTSTAMP
  262. [02:25:25] <markmansour> but not METHOD?
  263. [02:26:01] <briansuda> there is a list of, let me find it
  264. [02:26:30] * LTjake ( has joined #microformats
  265. [02:26:47] <briansuda>
  266. [02:26:57] <briansuda> the results are pretty weak at the moment
  267. [02:27:30] <briansuda> i know Apple iCal does NOT need METHOD, i subscribe to several hCalendars through it dynamically via X2V without METHOD
  268. [02:28:54] <markmansour> so... we know METHOD is needed for outlook, the spec says not to guess what METHOD is...
  269. [02:29:11] <markmansour> in the current hcal spec there is no way to define METHOD
  270. [02:29:14] <markmansour> so...
  271. [02:29:46] <markmansour> I reckon we override the ical spec and force the METHOD to a value.
  272. [02:30:08] <markmansour> the ical spec is know to be not as precise as some would like, so I think this is a reasonable outcome
  273. [02:30:35] <markmansour> GET, as you suggested, is a good value due to the use via web-services
  274. [02:30:49] <briansuda> great!
  275. [02:31:01] <markmansour> phew
  276. [02:31:02] <briansuda> i'm sure alot of Outlook folks will be happy.
  277. [02:31:43] <markmansour> do we have the 'authority' to add that to the hcalendar spec page, or is that something we should add to the brainstorming page and wait for a technorati person to move into the actual spec?
  278. [02:32:04] <briansuda> um...
  279. [02:32:32] <markmansour> I'm happy to put it on the brainstorming page, post to the mailing list and let the mailing list ratify it
  280. [02:32:38] <briansuda> lets go ahead and add it straight to the spec and say something like "PENDING" and link to this conversation.
  281. [02:32:47] <markmansour> ok
  282. [02:32:53] <briansuda> i think we have already fairly strongly brainstormed this...
  283. [02:33:07] <markmansour> yup... I agree
  284. [02:33:29] <briansuda> i would just mark it as PENDING (note it somehow) so folks know it is still up for some discussion
  285. [02:33:41] <markmansour> sure...
  286. [02:33:42] <briansuda> and send a message to the list to solicite comments
  287. [02:34:04] <markmansour> Now as far as answering item 1 goes, we are almost there... almost...
  288. [02:34:11] <briansuda> there is a log of this chat online, you can link to that so people can read the background discussion... let me find the link
  289. [02:35:08] <markmansour> we've said that METHOD will be hard coded to GET in .ics files, but we haven't said how/if it will be represented in xhtml.
  290. [02:35:31] <briansuda>
  291. [02:35:43] <markmansour> which again relies on the need for vcalendar
  292. [02:36:08] <briansuda> if we want to represent it in XHTML, yes, vcalendar is somehow also needed
  293. [02:36:39] <markmansour> but we have said that the loss of this information doesn't affect events/calendars
  294. [02:37:12] <briansuda> you mean Method, or vcalendar
  295. [02:37:13] <markmansour> so we could just be 'rude' and always override the METHOD value and therefore we wouldn't need vcalendar
  296. [02:37:47] <briansuda> i think rude is ok. we are sort of doing that with the other properties anyway
  297. [02:37:51] <markmansour> but we have said that the loss of METHOD information doesn't affect events/calendars
  298. [02:38:17] <briansuda> it doesn't according to the spec, no.
  299. [02:38:32] <markmansour> that's good. that works for the current scenario.
  300. [02:38:45] <markmansour> so... vcalendar adds no value at this point so it isn't needed
  301. [02:39:12] <briansuda> i think we have certainly moved far enough along to float it to the general community without problems
  302. [02:39:46] <briansuda> correct, vcalendar, at this point, doesn't add much except the way to split into multiple calendars.
  303. [02:39:52] <markmansour> the only issue I see coming up is if there are multiple calendars on a single page (especially if we start to mix in valarms and todos)
  304. [02:39:59] <markmansour> and that is a future item
  305. [02:40:23] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Connection timed out)
  306. [02:40:24] <markmansour> I think that item 1 is resolved.
  307. [02:40:40] <briansuda> correct, and i know there are strong ties to 80/20 and multiple calendars might be outside that range
  308. [02:40:42] * edsu (n=esummers@ has joined #microformats
  309. [02:41:03] <briansuda> great, are there any more issues still open?
  310. [02:41:24] <markmansour> item 1 - resolved - no vcalendars needed, METHOD to be hardcoded to GET
  311. [02:41:26] <briansuda> 3 i guess needs more discussion and homework
  312. [02:41:37] <markmansour> item 2 - examples to be provided by briansuda and ryanking
  313. [02:42:18] <markmansour> item 3 - as you said, for homework. how/are they being used in the wild. see tadalist/yahoo/others?
  314. [02:43:04] <markmansour> item 4 - issue with fragment test raised. ryanking to provide better test. current hcalendar tests living at to be moved to
  315. [02:43:23] <markmansour> item 5 - see resolution to item 4
  316. [02:43:33] <markmansour> can you see anything that I missed?
  317. [02:43:56] <briansuda> i think that covers it.
  318. [02:44:04] <briansuda> now we can go away, do some work, but
  319. [02:44:19] <markmansour> great. As you suggested earlier I'll update the wiki's if you can keep on ryans case.
  320. [02:44:21] <briansuda> update the wiki and maybe schedule another IRC chat sometime in the future
  321. [02:44:41] <markmansour> sure. does this time work for you, or would another time be better?
  322. [02:44:43] * bear_dinner is now known as bear
  323. [02:44:47] <markmansour> (time of the day that is)
  324. [02:45:49] <briansuda> this is OK for me, but we might pick a different time for a better turn-out, i know there are a few conferences ending now, so people are probably otherwise engaged at the moment
  325. [02:46:19] <markmansour> Not being in the right part of the world, I don't always know when conferences are on. Would you like to schedule the next meeting?
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  328. [02:46:40] <briansuda> we can schedule things as needed, no need to pick a day now
  329. [02:46:41] * LTjake ( has joined #microformats
  330. [02:46:47] <markmansour> alright then
  331. [02:47:50] <markmansour> Well, I think we've done pretty well (if I do say so myself). I enjoyed working through these issues with the uF mob (even if there was only a handfull of us)
  332. [02:48:22] <briansuda> it was enjoyable on this side as well, if anything pops-up feel free to email or grab me on IM
  333. [02:49:24] <markmansour> brillant. It is a nice 25.7C (about 78F) here, so I'm going to go out and enjoy the day (after updating the wiki).
  334. [02:49:25] <markmansour> bye
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  341. [04:09:10] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] M * Mark Mansour * (+18)
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  345. [05:43:14] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-issues]] M * Mark Mansour * (+62)
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  347. [06:20:37] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  348. [06:43:46] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-irc-meetup-20060225]] N * Mark Mansour * (+3347)
  349. [06:55:48] * markmansour ( Quit ()
  350. [07:41:19] <mfbot> [[events/2006-03-01-w3c-plenary-microformats]] * DanC * (+147) linked my slides
  351. [08:42:22] * tantek ( has joined #microformats
  352. [08:42:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <>
  353. [08:42:32] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  354. [08:42:59] <tantek> btw, in case folks are listening, the program.cfm example uses AXIS and HEADERS in the wild
  355. [08:43:11] <tantek> re: hCalendar questions from 6+ hours ago
  356. [08:43:27] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
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  360. [13:08:44] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints]] M * RobertBachmann * (+17) Added out-of-date marker
  361. [13:23:41] <mfbot> [[hatom]] * DavidJanes * (+7) Moved heading levels, as per hReview
  362. [13:24:11] <mfbot> [[hatom]] * DavidJanes * (-15) Format -
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  364. [13:25:57] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  365. [13:29:48] <mfbot> [[hatom]] * DavidJanes * (-262) Categories and Tags -
  366. [13:34:59] <mfbot> [[hatom]] * DavidJanes * (+1077) Added Feed Category and Entry Category
  367. [13:38:55] <mfbot> [[hatom]] * DavidJanes * (+20) Field and Element Details -
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  371. [14:28:18] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at
  372. [14:42:13] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M * RobertBachmann * (-435) Recent Changes - Removed, because it's outdated
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  378. [16:24:54] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - Web: Email: and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  379. [16:51:24] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  380. [16:52:07] <mfbot> [[presentations]] M * Tantek * (+55) this year -
  381. [17:01:17] <amanuel> has anyone thought of an interview microformat?
  382. [17:02:59] <amanuel> it would allow the gathering of all interviews, and statements made by someone about something
  383. [17:03:10] <tantek> amanuel, does any publish such things on the web today?
  384. [17:03:20] <tantek> see if you can find some examples in the wild of what you are talking about
  385. [17:03:42] <amanuel> lots of news articles have interviews
  386. [17:03:50] <amanuel> emily chang's site for example
  387. [17:04:44] * amanuel interviews have a distinct pattern
  388. [17:04:57] <tantek> are you talking about press interviews in particular?
  389. [17:05:22] <amanuel> no a story where someone has posted Q & A session with someone
  390. [17:05:39] <tantek> well that's kind of what a press interview is
  391. [17:05:48] <tantek> or perhaps a "public interview"
  392. [17:05:51] <amanuel> yes iit is
  393. [17:06:24] <amanuel> the point is there is a structure to that form of writing
  394. [17:06:41] <tantek> it is more than just <ol> + <li> + <cite> + <blockquote> ?
  395. [17:06:49] <tantek> s/it is/is it
  396. [17:07:01] <amanuel> no not much more than that
  397. [17:07:10] <tantek> plus perhaps hCards to identify the people/speakers
  398. [17:07:18] <tantek> <cite class="vcard"> etc.
  399. [17:07:22] <amanuel> yes that's what I was thinking
  400. [17:07:46] <tantek> seems like a good pattern to write up, just use of existing semantic XHTML and hCard
  401. [17:07:48] <amanuel> and the include thing you were talking about could bring in the references of the interview
  402. [17:08:14] <tantek> i'm not sure i understand what you mean by references in this context
  403. [17:08:25] <tantek> seems like plain hyperlinks would be sufficient for that
  404. [17:09:50] <amanuel> well if the person mentioned in the interview like AJAX or something, an include could be added to bring in glossary terms or reference
  405. [17:10:13] <amanuel> to specific article or document
  406. [17:10:50] <tantek> a hyperlink to the glossary term / reference should be sufficient
  407. [17:11:09] <amanuel> yeah i suppose
  408. [17:11:13] <tantek> it's not like you're trying to get that glossary definition parsed by a microformat
  409. [17:11:40] <tantek> the include is only for cases where the microformat requires the data be there, but authors don't author it that way because the data is somewhere else on the page
  410. [17:11:53] <tantek> stick with the simplest solution/tool you can use
  411. [17:12:05] <amanuel> i see
  412. [17:12:07] <tantek> in this case, the standard hyperlink is sufficient
  413. [17:12:22] <tantek> probably in most cases
  414. [17:13:10] <amanuel> yeah, I can also see case where hInterview could be used to format irc transcripts
  415. [17:13:30] <amanuel> what do you think of that?
  416. [17:13:33] <tantek> only if the irc transcript is an interview
  417. [17:13:54] <tantek> there's much more to an irc transcript than an interview
  418. [17:14:09] <amanuel> right keep it simple, and focused.
  419. [17:14:12] <tantek> if you want to look at marking up irc transcripts, take a look at chat-examples
  420. [17:14:26] <tantek> there's been a bunch of work done on trying to research and figure that out
  421. [17:15:53] <amanuel> yeah I have followed some of that....when I thought of hInterview was to handle official 'interviews' which usaually are a part of a news story or something.
  422. [17:17:20] <amanuel> so you think it's worth pursuing?
  423. [17:18:29] <amanuel> I gotta go we talk later.
  424. [17:18:46] <tantek> not sure if it is worth pursuing
  425. [17:18:51] <tantek> what problem are you trying to solve?
  426. [17:19:14] <tantek> what user benefit / feature would be enabled if the interview were marked up with more details?
  427. [17:19:19] <mfbot> [[xfolk-profile]] M * RobertBachmann * (+32) Repaced "extended" w/ <code>description</code>
  428. [17:20:09] <amanuel> I want to search all cases where someone has said something
  429. [17:20:15] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] M * Tantek * (-156) undo corruption from vandal Serginandr on 07:53, 6 Jan 2006
  430. [17:20:18] <amanuel> about a topic
  431. [17:20:26] <tantek> ah good
  432. [17:20:45] <tantek> but people say things outside of the context of interviews
  433. [17:21:00] <tantek> in fact, to solve the problem of looking where people say things
  434. [17:21:08] <tantek> it seems the only thing you need is <cite> + hCard
  435. [17:21:11] <amanuel> yes but in case of interviews it is what they actually said
  436. [17:21:23] <tantek> <cite> meaning a reference to someone saying something
  437. [17:21:31] <tantek> and hCard telling you who
  438. [17:21:53] <amanuel> yep that is enough almost.
  439. [17:21:58] <tantek> amanuel, on the web, interviews are no different than any other kinds of quotes
  440. [17:22:16] <tantek> "what they actually said" is left up to the quality of the site
  441. [17:22:22] <tantek> or publication
  442. [17:22:36] <amanuel> true
  443. [17:22:55] <tantek> but even "high quality" publications such as newspapers, and popular print magazines take quotes out of context, or "approximate" what people say
  444. [17:22:56] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:search-results-example": Spammer created
  445. [17:23:30] <tantek> thus an "interview" is no more trustworthy than just a random quote by someone published somewhere
  446. [17:23:52] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "Talk:Main Page-fr": Spammer created
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  455. [17:25:04] <amanuel> I have been reading a lot of news lately and in most cases you have quotes, and interviews that are structures or patterns that could be detected
  456. [17:25:06] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/delete]] * RobertBachmann * (+0) deleted "hbib": Spammer created
  457. [17:25:39] <amanuel> i suppose <cite> would suffice
  458. [17:25:47] <amanuel> with <hcard>
  459. [17:26:35] <amanuel> tantek: I'll think about it some more but will be back later...wife is gonna kill me if I stay any longer
  460. [17:27:20] <tantek> the one challenge is finding the associated <q> or <blockquote> for the <cite>
  461. [17:32:44] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  462. [17:32:44] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  463. [17:46:22] <RobertBachmann> Tantek, currently links to implemenations are scattered accross the wiki.
  464. [17:46:22] <RobertBachmann> Maybe we could collect them on one page (wiki/implementations) and let the spec pages point to the apropriate section (e.g: wiki/implementations#hCard)?
  465. [17:46:51] <tantek> i'm not sure the duplication is a bad thing
  466. [17:47:03] <tantek> i think it makes sense for each spec to list the implementations of it
  467. [17:47:18] <tantek> but i also think it makes sense to list the implementations as a whole in one place
  468. [17:47:21] <RobertBachmann> why, duplicating?
  469. [17:47:25] <tantek> but not broken up by spec
  470. [17:47:30] <tantek> the reason is two different presentations
  471. [17:47:41] <tantek> think of implementations that implement 3 different microformats
  472. [17:47:58] <tantek> people working on one of those microformats in particular will want to know about just the implementations for that microformat
  473. [17:48:03] <tantek> without having to go hunt for it
  474. [17:48:04] <tantek> OTOH
  475. [17:48:17] <tantek> people also want to look for implementations "in general"
  476. [17:48:41] <tantek> on the implementations page, such an implementation would only be listed once, with the microformats it supports following it perhaps as a list
  477. [17:49:12] <tantek> basically, people look for the same information differently depending on what they are in particular looking for
  478. [17:52:18] <RobertBachmann> I see.
  479. [17:52:38] <tantek> if anything, we need to make it *easier* for folks to find stuff on the wiki
  480. [17:52:44] <tantek> which can be done somewhat with links
  481. [17:52:48] <tantek> but sometimes requires duplication
  482. [17:52:57] <tantek> it is worth reevaluating from time to time
  483. [17:53:08] <tantek> see the whole thread on suggestions for wiki redesign etc.
  484. [17:53:16] <tantek> (on microformats-discuss)
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  488. [18:03:59] <RobertBachmann> A big problem with duplication is that if the description of an implemenation is to be changed we must change it on all places, maybee Mediawiki templates could help us out.
  489. [18:04:15] <tantek> if templates weren't such a PITA to use
  490. [18:04:29] <tantek> the effort to use templates is FAR greater than duplicating information once
  491. [18:04:53] <tantek> and the duplication in this instance is not subject to the problem you mention
  492. [18:05:05] <tantek> if an implementation implements hCard and hCalendar for example
  493. [18:05:18] <tantek> then the implemeter should list in the implementations sections in both those specs
  494. [18:05:35] <tantek> and on the implementations page, listing hCard and hCalendar as the technologies supported
  495. [18:05:57] <tantek> if that implementation now adds hReview support (a change in description)
  496. [18:06:08] <tantek> then the information does not need to change on the hCard page
  497. [18:06:11] <tantek> nor on the hCalendar page
  498. [18:06:20] <tantek> only on the implementations page
  499. [18:06:37] <tantek> and a *new* entry must be entered on the hReview page, in its implementations section
  500. [18:07:05] <tantek> thus your generalization about "big problem with duplication", though may in theory be possible, in practice in the examples we have, is not a problem
  501. [18:19:22] <RobertBachmann> I was thinking about the cases were something like ''This does not work with FireFox 1.5+/GreaseMonkey 0.6.4+.'' is used as part of the description, in that case
  502. [18:19:22] <RobertBachmann> all descriptions of that implemtation would have to be changed.
  503. [18:19:23] <RobertBachmann> Unfortunalty, as you said, templates are quite laborious to use.
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  505. [18:28:17] <tantek> I think descriptions like that are to be avoided, except perhaps on the implementations page
  506. [18:28:25] <tantek> on the spec pages, simply linking to the
  507. [18:28:46] <tantek> naming/linking to the implementations is sufficient (with perhaps a link to the blog post where they were found or announced)
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  509. [18:46:07] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
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  511. [18:47:29] <jibot> blake is allegedly human. Blake, also known as Cortland M. Setlow, studies at and enjoys building things, exploring buildings, and physics. He currently sleeps during the day.
  512. [18:48:20] * blake ( Quit (Client Quit)
  513. [18:49:43] * RobertBachmann ( Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  514. [18:51:01] <mfbot> [[presentations]] M * Tantek * (+6) this year -
  515. [18:56:26] <tantek> greetings folks
  516. [18:56:49] <tantek> anyone here available to help out with adding hCard and hCalendar to the speakers/session/agenda pages of some upcoming conferences?
  517. [18:59:12] <tantek> e.g. let's start with this one page:
  518. [19:04:22] * RobertBachmann ( has joined #microformats
  519. [19:04:22] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  520. [19:04:40] <tantek> hi Robert
  521. [19:04:54] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  522. [19:19:55] * limbo_ ( has joined #microformats
  523. [19:19:56] <jibot> limbo_ is Eran and blogs at
  524. [19:34:30] * Snowden ( has joined #microformats
  525. [19:42:27] <RobertBachmann> hi Tantek. Is Mashup camp already over?
  526. [19:42:44] <RobertBachmann> our does it last more than one day?
  527. [19:48:12] <tantek> heh, indeed
  528. [19:48:30] <tantek> robert, would you like to try adding hCard and hCalendar to some pages?
  529. [19:48:52] * TantekC ( has joined #microformats
  530. [19:49:00] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  531. [19:49:23] * TantekC changes topic to 'add yourself to || | Channel is logged:'
  532. [19:49:46] <RobertBachmann> yes, what pages?
  533. [19:49:57] <tantek> let's start with this one page:
  534. [19:50:23] <tantek> bbiab
  535. [20:05:39] * RobertBachmann ( Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  536. [20:19:59] * RobertBachmann ( has joined #microformats
  537. [20:19:59] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <> and lives in Austria (Timezone: 01:00)
  538. [20:20:15] <RobertBachmann> ok I'm starting with adding hcards
  539. [20:29:00] * bkdelong ( Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  540. [20:30:45] * KevinMarks ( has joined #microformats
  541. [20:45:13] * keithale1ander ( has joined #microformats
  542. [21:01:02] * keithalexander ( Quit (No route to host)
  543. [21:04:42] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  544. [21:04:43] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  545. [21:09:18] * bkdelong ( has joined #microformats
  546. [21:09:18] <jibot> bkdelong is B.K. DeLong, Head Research Analyst for HALO Worldwide - Web: Email: and lives in Salem, MA, USA (-5:00 GMT)
  547. [21:24:40] * RobertBachmann ( Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  548. [21:26:14] * RobertBachmann ( has joined #microformats
  549. [21:40:56] * _psychic_ ( has joined #microformats
  550. [22:06:46] * danath333 ( has joined #microformats
  551. [22:09:02] <RobertBachmann> Tantek, I've added hcards to 01-TechPlenAgenda.html
  552. [22:09:03] <RobertBachmann> Diff: <> XHTML: <>
  553. [22:16:45] * Snowden ( Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  554. [22:22:16] <RobertBachmann> ah cool, pastbin has built in support for diffs <>
  555. [22:26:20] * danath333 ( Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  556. [22:36:58] * TantekC ( Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  557. [22:53:34] * danja ( Quit ("Ciao!")
  558. [22:54:08] * _psychic_ ( has left #microformats
  559. [23:22:22] * andyhume ( has joined #microformats
  560. [23:22:23] <jibot> andyhume is Andrew D. Hume and blogs at and has a wonderful use of hCards for commenters (see for details)
  561. [23:44:59] * Jonnay ( has joined #microformats
  562. [23:45:16] <Jonnay> Hello everyone.
  563. [23:45:39] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  564. [23:45:46] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  565. [23:46:02] * TantekC ( has joined #microformats
  566. [23:46:40] * tantek sets mode +o TantekC
  567. [23:57:46] * tantek ( Quit ()

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