IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:15:11] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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- [01:04:34] <factoryjoe>
tantek: ping
- [01:35:30] <yakk>
we need irc ping-o-matic
- [01:50:35] <tantek>
yakk, what do you mean by that?
- [01:51:41] <evanpro>
if you ping tantek, then you also ping everyone who's interested in what tantek thinks
- [01:51:45] <evanpro>
it's a pub-sub model
- [01:51:58] <evanpro>
B-)
- [01:58:09] <yakk>
or it could ping across all the networks
- [01:58:20] <yakk>
or it could proxy pings to other protocols
- [01:58:27] <yakk>
we don't actually need this - it was just a silly idea :)
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- [02:09:02] <evanpro>
<yakk> or it could proxy pings to other protocols
- [02:09:06] * hendry_ (n=hendry@222.106.128.78) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [02:09:10] <evanpro>
Like poke-in-the-arm protocol
- [02:09:47] <evanpro>
Are ya busy? Hmm? How about now? Can you talk? Hey?
- [02:10:02] <evanpro>
poke poke poke poke poke poke poke
- [02:11:24] <factoryjoe>
yakk: talk to termie
- [02:11:28] <factoryjoe>
he has already built that
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- [02:11:34] <factoryjoe>
synced w/ his cell phone
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- [04:48:09] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [04:57:20] <mfbot>
[[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=6522 * JoeAndrieu * (+0) Schema -
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- [05:30:59] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [05:46:38] <mfbot>
[[picoformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats * Chris Messina * (+575)
- [05:47:14] <mfbot>
[[picoformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=6523 * Chris Messina * (+48)
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- [06:20:26] <mfbot>
[[Talk:Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6524 * Rrrrrrrrr * (+16135)
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- [06:46:38] <mfbot>
[[Talk:Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6525 * Tantek * (-16135) Reverted edit of Rrrrrrrrr, changed back to last version by RobertBachmann
- [06:47:03] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Rrrrrrrrr" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
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- [07:05:39] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [07:18:07] <KevinMarks>
http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/CommentView.aspx?guid=96747D35-9190-483B-95E2-5B1CCAB48DF2#ab1f016e-400c-409c-9ea2-71a7bf9b2f60
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- [08:24:07] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
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- [10:56:13] <jibot>
Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
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- [11:49:16] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [12:13:42] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [12:15:24] <mfbot>
[[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6526 * DrewMcLellan * (+120) this year -
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- [12:33:54] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [13:46:56] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [13:59:44] <pnhChris>
oh look.. cork'd has hcards in their profiles
- [14:02:07] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:02:07] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [14:14:06] <pnhChris>
KevinMarks: dupes in the flickr listings? http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/casciano
- [14:20:18] <briansuda>
but not for this one: http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/quincejam
- [14:21:47] <pnhChris>
oh you know what
- [14:21:54] <pnhChris>
hmmm
- [14:22:03] <pnhChris>
is it picking up on changes to friends lists
- [14:22:18] <pnhChris>
or other content
- [14:22:37] <pnhChris>
and relisting
- [14:22:39] <pnhChris>
i wonder
- [14:22:56] <pnhChris>
that would explain that difference briansuda ... recently added contact
- [14:23:37] <briansuda>
yeah, the search is conducted over the WHOLE document, but ONLY the Microformat content is presented in the results
- [14:23:48] <briansuda>
not exactly how i'd do it, but it's not my company
- [14:24:17] <pnhChris>
yeah.. it really could use some more advanced search options
- [14:24:23] <pnhChris>
but some of that gets real messy
- [14:24:36] <pnhChris>
"search for chris in fields 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7"
- [14:25:10] <pnhChris>
but i'm not sure how to resolve the update to a card and re-ping issue
- [14:25:31] <pnhChris>
i guess delete all old ones at that url... can't really rely on fragment identifiers
- [14:25:44] <pnhChris>
but its not my problem either
- [14:25:56] <pnhChris>
directly at least
- [14:26:32] <pnhChris>
the more interesting question is how can we publish data to make results like this -- http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/chris -- be smarter
- [14:26:40] <pnhChris>
and more useful
- [14:27:37] <briansuda>
the other issue which will start to pop-up is the flooding of invalid data. I can add an hCard about you and put loads of false information.
- [14:29:18] * amette__ is now known as amette
- [14:29:21] <pnhChris>
which is a nearly impossible task... at least that's the answer i get after thinking about it for 30 seconds
- [14:31:04] <tantek>
pnhChris, you're right that it's picking up any change to your hCard contents
- [14:31:23] <pnhChris>
tantek: no, i think it is.. with multiple pings
- [14:31:36] <pnhChris>
but storing / displaying them as multiple records
- [14:31:39] <tantek>
we're being a bit liberal with showing changed content
- [14:31:46] <tantek>
yes
- [14:32:10] * pnhChris nods
- [14:32:18] <tantek>
we'll likely start collapsing some of that relatively soon, but for now found have left it in to help with debugging etc.
- [14:32:42] <tantek>
it is definitely a bit more of an "open" technology preview in that regard
- [14:33:01] <pnhChris>
.. but espeecially with sites like flickr that hold some info private.. there really isn't anyhting stopping me from registering as bria suda with public info X,Y + Z that correlates to the same attributes as your "real" data
- [14:33:04] <tantek>
we really wanted to give the community something to play with soon and iterate based on feedback from the community
- [14:33:25] <pnhChris>
.. flickr being benign... unless you're posting goatse
- [14:33:32] <tantek>
the problem of spoofing content on the web is certainly not a new one
- [14:33:57] <pnhChris>
but s/flickr/a white power friendster/ or something else you wouldn't want to be assoicated with "you"
- [14:34:01] <pnhChris>
nope
- [14:34:17] <pnhChris>
but making assumptions during aggrigation in a bit newer
- [14:34:19] <pnhChris>
or at least
- [14:34:28] <pnhChris>
requires understanding that
- [14:34:37] <tantek>
hence why there is very little aggregation in the results right now
- [14:35:46] <tantek>
one of the big reasons I developed XFN with Matt and Eric was to provide at least the beginnings of a building block for various forms of distributed implied trust and recognition
- [14:36:13] <pnhChris>
even then, you'd have to control all the points... or a list of all the valid points
- [14:36:20] * ichigo (n=ichigo@80.123.59.119) Quit ()
- [14:36:32] <tantek>
no, you don't have to control "all the points"
- [14:36:41] <tantek>
it's more about raising some results above others
- [14:36:50] <tantek>
due to greater implied trust/recognition
- [14:37:00] <tantek>
rel="me" let's you explicitly indicate that various different profiles are the same person for example
- [14:37:07] <tantek>
those can obviously be strongly preferred in any aggregation
- [14:37:47] <pnhChris>
so the white power friendseter adds XFN
- [14:38:06] <pnhChris>
and you're back to an identical record as the one on friendster
- [14:38:14] <tantek>
See http://gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation for more
- [14:38:24] <tantek>
no, you're back to an island
- [14:39:24] <tantek>
the point is that by other folks indicating that you are a colleague etc., that information is implied to be more trusted
- [14:40:18] <tantek>
the first occurrences of such bad data will likely be spam rather than any kind of overtly negative stuff as you suggest
- [14:40:42] <tantek>
at least if present behavior on blogs is any indication
- [14:41:04] <pnhChris>
sure
- [14:41:55] <pnhChris>
but the implications on aggrigating for less spam-worthy results/names .. and common names in general (chris) are there as well
- [14:41:57] <briansuda>
but pingerati doesn't do just blogs
- [14:42:12] <tantek>
right
- [14:42:17] <tantek>
but the fact remains the same
- [14:42:27] <tantek>
economically spam provides more incentive than hate
- [14:42:41] <tantek>
before blogs people spammed meta keywords etc.
- [14:43:30] <pnhChris>
its definitely a wider data problem
- [14:44:25] <pnhChris>
i dunno
- [14:44:52] <pnhChris>
but from a publisher standpoint i'm not looking to solve /that/ problem as much
- [14:45:06] <pnhChris>
as i am providing enough info to correlate records
- [14:45:14] <dglazkov>
need some sort of voting/karma system for microformats search :)
- [14:45:22] <pnhChris>
and that's where spoofing on an individual leve becomes a problem
- [14:45:36] <pnhChris>
.. or linking valid recods
- [14:46:10] <dglazkov>
the beauty of decentralized database is that the aggregator has control of what to include or not
- [14:46:23] <dglazkov>
instead of needing to control what to store or not
- [14:47:53] <pnhChris>
... and doing so for people / contacts that don't neccesarily have a "home page" where they can house a list of all their mentions with rel=me
- [14:48:23] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [14:48:24] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [14:48:59] <pnhChris>
just rambling at this point, i know.. but its what hits me when i see the search results starting to build records wise
- [14:50:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [14:50:57] <tantek>
dglazkov - XFN provides sufficient information to imply some sort of karma
- [14:52:03] <pnhChris>
though I'd have to think hcard would imply some of that karma
- [14:52:53] <pnhChris>
vcard class="url" says "them" just as directly
- [14:53:35] <pnhChris>
(as in my chunkysoup.net vcard.. with url of placenamehere.com but no xfn)
- [14:53:47] <tantek>
no, hcard does not imply any karma - it only self-describes
- [14:54:18] <tantek>
hyperlinks to *other* folks imply some karma, as modern search engines have already taken into account
- [14:54:32] <tantek>
hyperlinks+XFN take it one more step and imply even more
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- [14:56:06] <pnhChris>
so is address class="vcard" class="url" not descriptive enough to make assumptions about connectedness.. .to say its soemthing that the thing at the url that wrote?
- [14:56:12] <pnhChris>
seems silly to me
- [14:56:50] <dglazkov>
does your current search do anything w/XFN?
- [14:56:51] <pnhChris>
i'm not sure what it "says" sematically if that's not it
- [14:57:07] <briansuda>
be aware that the current proposal to include IM accounts is class="url" href="aim:foobar"
- [14:57:15] <tantek>
it says that is one of the urls associated with that hCard
- [14:57:44] <tantek>
dglazkov, we're indexing some XFN but we're not surfacing it yet
- [14:57:50] <pnhChris>
but what do you do with that on aggrigation
- [14:57:52] <dglazkov>
cool
- [14:57:59] <pnhChris>
certainly more then any old link to that URL
- [14:58:01] <pnhChris>
no?
- [14:58:06] <pnhChris>
if not, why?
- [14:58:15] <dglazkov>
btw, tantek, are you fully parsing HTML (tidy, etc.) or pattern-matching until you see what you're interested in?
- [14:58:25] <tantek>
Chris, perhaps. It will take some more analysis.
- [14:58:47] <tantek>
dglazkov, we're using a combination of checking the fields and doing some relevance as well
- [14:59:00] <pnhChris>
just because XFN is an established way to make that connection, i don't think that leaves hcard implying nothing
- [14:59:01] <tantek>
the first cut was to make it as easy as possible for people to search
- [14:59:15] * dglazkov is setting out to build uf parser for ASP.NET
- [14:59:25] <dglazkov>
watch this space for project announcement
- [14:59:32] <pnhChris>
i mean any aggrigator can certainly decide on their own how they want to use that information
- [14:59:33] <tantek>
dglakov, great!
- [14:59:41] <tantek>
I'm not saying it implies nothing Chris, I'm just saying it doesn't imply karma
- [14:59:50] <tantek>
it is not a measure *between* individuals
- [15:00:02] <tantek>
whereas XFN is
- [15:00:51] <tantek>
the 'url' property in hCard/hCalendar etc. *does* imply a greater association for aggregation, but does not imply any karma, or any kind of "recommendation" of one individual by another
- [15:00:56] <pnhChris>
then we're talking past each other.. becuase i'm talking about linking records from a publishers standpoint so that aggrigators can work with the records better
- [15:01:35] <pnhChris>
and making that connection between, say, placenamehere and chunkysoup
- [15:01:47] <tantek>
you're not talking about any form of "karma" or reputation as classically discussed then
- [15:01:48] <pnhChris>
or joe smith at lfickr and jo smith at corkd
- [15:01:55] <tantek>
that's identity consolidation
- [15:02:03] <tantek>
and accomplished with bidirectional rel="me" links
- [15:02:33] <tantek>
for one, we've been using rel="me" with Technorati profiles and embeds for quite some time
- [15:02:47] <tantek>
so when you claim a blog, it links your profile to your blog with rel="me"
- [15:03:07] <tantek>
and if you include the embed code in your blog and have it link to your profile, then it does so with rel="me" as well
- [15:03:10] <pnhChris>
but as i said.. if one doesn't have a "home page" where they can provide the corresponding rel me
- [15:03:17] <pnhChris>
or hasn't
- [15:03:32] <tantek>
then you have no place to put the hCard right?
- [15:03:55] <tantek>
the "if one doesn't have a home page" argument is basically akin to the "if one doesn't have an email address" argument of about 20 years ago
- [15:04:12] <tantek>
it's effectively a non-problem, or will soon be so
- [15:04:37] <pnhChris>
the reciprical linking requires a place where i can keep links to 30 sites I have profiles with and keep up with whichs ones hav epublic or private profiles as i subscribe to them on a whim
- [15:04:40] <tantek>
with 70m+ people with their own myspace profiles etc., this is not a problem
- [15:05:23] <pnhChris>
though most of those proviles, in the context of your new search.. if they get listed will have the one way hcard class=url
- [15:05:39] <pnhChris>
and what do you do with that.. or how does that factor in
- [15:05:42] <pnhChris>
was all i was going for
- [15:05:48] <pnhChris>
you were working on a different problem
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- [15:06:30] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [15:06:50] <pnhChris>
anyway
- [15:07:09] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [15:07:11] <pnhChris>
as i stated.. its mostly just rambling from me... and .. well.. don't have much more time for that
- [15:07:14] <pnhChris>
:/
- [15:07:26] <pnhChris>
not today anywa
- [15:07:28] <pnhChris>
way
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- [15:13:45] <pnhChris>
i guess to me the question is what is the goal of searching for hcards.. its to get a specific peice of information on someone, to build a big profile/consolidated vcard, or to see where what they touch (profiles, comments, blog posts, mentions)... xfn only helps with some of that... and relying on xfn hurts some other (e.g. hcard'd blog comments that will never have xfn, and thus may drop in certain search output that relies o
- [15:13:56] <pnhChris>
and with that
- [15:14:01] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
- [15:15:53] <tantek>
xfn is for indicating the social ties from which you can infer other facets of trust
- [15:16:17] <tantek>
publishing and searching hCards essentially enables a world wide distributed addressbook
- [15:18:37] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N086P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [15:18:38] <jibot>
RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
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- [15:24:06] * tantek sets mode +o briansuda
- [15:24:16] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
- [15:24:48] <pnhAway>
but i'm having trouble seeing that jump from publishing individual snippits of contact information makes individual consumption on an individual basis easier as well as offering some context clues to something that is the basis for a world wide address book
- [15:27:02] <pnhAway>
especially with short hcards in blog posts, comments, mentions, etc. that have little value to add to that global address book, but might have more value in identifying connections
- [15:28:48] <pnhAway>
if netflix goes behind my back and makes a public profile page that gets indexed.. its certainly me
- [15:29:41] <pnhAway>
that doesn't change that its a prfile that can be connected (via email or url or whatever else) back to me, or not
- [15:30:01] <pnhAway>
so how do you aggrigate anything with that level of detail
- [15:30:05] <pnhAway>
or do you not
- [15:30:16] <pnhAway>
and if you dont', what benefit is searching the web
- [15:30:20] <pnhAway>
for contact info
- [15:31:36] <pnhAway>
or you get a subset of data for one or two promeinet people with lots of friends and the rest gets lots
- [15:31:39] <pnhAway>
lost
- [15:31:51] <pnhAway>
.. becuase you just can't aggrigate the rest
- [15:33:29] <pnhAway>
stuff that works on the individual level... i can go to my friend jo smith's web page and import their data to my address book and know i have that information.. but i don't know how searching the web for hcard'd info would be a useful alternative
- [15:34:32] <pnhAway>
particularly if they weren't my friend where i'd konw their home page already but someone that i needed to chase down
- [15:34:34] <tantek>
searching the web for hcard'd info may be how you would find your friend's contact info web page in the first place
- [15:34:38] <tantek>
that's the point
- [15:35:08] <tantek>
people use traditional search engines right now to search for other people
- [15:35:30] <tantek>
and you get tons more false positives
- [15:35:56] <tantek>
hCard improves upon that experience significantly
- [15:36:34] <tantek>
and not only that, but eliminates the "copy paste each piece of info about the person one property at a time" tediousness once you *do* find that contact info
- [15:36:57] <tantek>
it certainly won't be perfect or solve all possible problems
- [15:37:28] <tantek>
but then again, that's not the point, nor is it a goal of microformats
- [15:38:16] <tantek>
we leave perfection and solving all possible problems to smarter people with more time on their hands ;)
- [15:39:21] <briansuda>
tantek, if i search for you i get my flickr page because you are a contact of mine, and my hCard appears. That's pretty close to a false positive
- [15:39:33] <tantek>
not really brian
- [15:39:43] <tantek>
it does indicate some relevance which is acurate
- [15:39:47] <tantek>
accurate even ;)
- [15:40:07] <tantek>
of course we'll continue to tweak the algorithms and improve them as the dataset grows and we gain more experience
- [15:40:32] <tantek>
you can imagine how when those contact lists/links are marked up with XFN, then it becomes even easier to do so
- [15:40:42] * briansuda should complain since it is still the kinks are still being worked out
- [15:41:26] <tantek>
and think about it this way brian, if someone were to search for me, and all they found was your flickr page, at least now they may have potentially found a way to contact me
- [15:42:13] <tantek>
so I don't think it is a false positive at all, it's just of less relevance than my flickr page
- [15:43:25] <briansuda>
true, but as the index grows it might become overwheling to get 12,000 results for 'john'
- [15:43:50] <tantek>
how is that any different than looking up "Smith" in the white pages phone directory?
- [15:43:58] <tantek>
and yes, the world is a big place with lots of people
- [15:44:01] <briansuda>
although you might be able to do some really interesting 6-degrees of seperation with the results
- [15:44:10] <tantek>
right - that's where the XFN will come in
- [15:44:26] <briansuda>
The difference is that you KNOW 'smith' is the last name, where as with your search 'smith' is on the page
- [15:44:41] <briansuda>
the difference is semantics versus occurance
- [15:45:18] <tantek>
right, so you'll want to list results with the first or last name of "smith" before those with additional-name, before those with mentions or nearby text etc. -- that's the point of relevance ranking
- [15:45:35] <briansuda>
agreed.
- [15:45:57] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
- [15:46:14] <tantek>
and when we do end up with hundreds of millions (or even billions) of hCards on the web, it will present a very interesting challenge to user interface designers
- [15:46:26] <tantek>
how to build a UI for an addressbook of that many people?
- [15:46:27] * EliasT_ is now known as EliasT
- [15:46:37] <tantek>
even today's social networking sites have problems with that
- [15:47:28] <tantek>
even *personal* address books are growing - it is not unheard of for people to have thousands of contacts in their address book, and current address book UIs just don't cut it
- [15:48:12] <tantek>
(these numbers are true despite many so-called experts clinging to the overly hyped "150" number etc.)
- [15:48:37] <tantek>
but these are good challenges to have
- [15:48:51] <tantek>
good opportunities for people to figure out new applications, new services, new interfaces
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- [15:52:41] <pnhAway>
the problem isn't just that there are billions of hcards out there.. its that 500 of them are "me" because of the way hcard is used outside of profile pages that I directly have a hand in creating
- [15:53:08] <pnhAway>
and all have various levels of detail and quality
- [15:54:35] <tantek>
well, both are challenges
- [15:55:55] <tantek>
think about it this way, computers and PDAs are just barely getting to the point where they can sync the contacts of *one person* somewhat reasonably - even now, all cases that I know have some data loss due to inconsistent feature support
- [15:56:42] <tantek>
syncing (or merging/aggregating, same difference) the contacts from *multiple sources* is even more challenging
- [15:56:46] <tantek>
yet not impossible
- [15:56:54] <tantek>
it's just going to take more clever code etc.
- [15:57:04] <pnhAway>
which is why i can see the use on an individual import basis of hcard
- [15:57:10] <pnhAway>
but i can't make that leap in context
- [15:57:27] <tantek>
and to some extent, again your problem of "hcard used outside of your own profile pages" is the same as web pages today
- [15:57:37] <tantek>
you're not stating a new problem at all
- [15:57:49] <pnhAway>
or that leap in application from extracting info on something you have, to getting info from an object you don't konw about
- [15:57:59] <tantek>
you're stating an old problem, which hCard does a better job at than preexisting solutions
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- [15:58:11] <pnhAway>
no, i'm just thinking very literally about the problem
- [15:58:39] <pnhAway>
with the things and uses i see infront of me and that i know are being published about one data item, me
- [15:58:51] <pnhAway>
and thinking of how to better manage that
- [15:58:59] <tantek>
they were being published about you before hCard even existed
- [15:59:03] <tantek>
and the mess was even worse
- [15:59:04] <pnhAway>
just not abstracting that into a broader content
- [15:59:07] <tantek>
that's easy to forget
- [15:59:07] <pnhAway>
sure
- [15:59:12] <tantek>
that's my larger point
- [15:59:18] <tantek>
we're not solving all the problems with just this one step
- [15:59:23] <tantek>
but we are making things better
- [15:59:30] <tantek>
of course there is still much to do
- [15:59:38] <pnhAway>
but i worry that there isn't enough definition to do much more then we did before
- [15:59:47] <tantek>
there's plenty
- [15:59:55] <tantek>
you know which hCards have more details
- [16:00:06] <tantek>
and which are merely tokens of your presence, like comment authorship
- [16:01:07] <pnhAway>
on an individual occuracne and with me looking it over, yes, i can see that
- [16:01:27] <tantek>
and similarly, search engines can tell that too, now that those details are marked up with hCard
- [16:01:47] <tantek>
whereas before, that was *much* more difficult (if possible at all), and of very poor accuracy
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- [17:37:14] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6527 * PatRamsey * (+202) Examples in the wild -
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- [18:10:46] <bewest>
yay... looks like I convinced a developer to index microformats from our crawls
- [18:10:55] <bewest>
if they don't I"
- [18:10:59] <bewest>
I'll work on it on my own time
- [18:11:32] <bewest>
it'll be nifty since no ping is needed
- [18:11:51] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
- [18:11:51] <jibot>
hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
- [18:18:13] <KevinMarks>
what are you crawling?
- [18:23:46] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
- [18:23:47] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
- [18:24:00] <KevinMarks>
ah, Alexa. we could feed you page pings if you want them
- [18:26:25] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
- [18:26:52] <bewest>
hmmm
- [18:27:03] <bewest>
that might come later
- [18:27:18] <bewest>
dunno if you know about our new product
- [18:27:20] <bewest>
called AWSP
- [18:27:25] <bewest>
we are developing some samle apps
- [18:27:35] <bewest>
and I think I've convinced them to do a microformats search
- [18:27:53] <bewest>
dunno if it'll be all uf though or just hcard
- [18:28:54] <bewest>
I'm excited about it
- [18:29:10] <bewest>
I was going to start on it myself last night but I forgot my password
- [18:29:13] <bewest>
speaking of which
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- [18:42:15] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [19:30:44] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
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- [19:55:44] <rVidia>
Excuse me, I have a question. Someone told me to go to freenode because I want to make IRC for my website but I cannot understand how to.
- [19:56:48] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
- [19:57:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
- [19:58:37] <rVidia>
Could anyone possibly help me with this?
- [20:00:27] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:00:28] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:00:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [20:01:19] <rVidia>
Excuse me could you possibly help me with something? I was told to go to freenode because I want to make IRC for my website but I cannot understand how.
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- [20:07:14] <knowprose>
question: Is there a place that plainly defines what a microformat is supposed to do without all the buzzwords? :-)
- [20:09:51] <bewest>
microformats allow you to encode useful information in a zero-sum kind of way
- [20:10:08] <bewest>
the technology that does it is already available, it takes advantage of pre-existing standards
- [20:10:26] <knowprose>
right, I grok that. I guess what I'm trying to do is explain to someone how they differ from pre-existing Technorati tags.
- [20:10:32] <bewest>
but allows you to manipulate complex data-types in an way that is atomic from a user inteface perspective
- [20:10:53] <knowprose>
standards driven, like XML?
- [20:11:07] <bewest>
actually microformats encodes all data in xhtml
- [20:11:30] <bewest>
so it's really a formalized convention for authoring xhtml
- [20:11:52] <bewest>
although you can use html
- [20:12:12] <bewest>
the reason behind that is because html/xhtml is already consumed with decent support
- [20:12:15] <knowprose>
ok. So, for common things there will be common microformats - like the hcard example. But for particular things, there will be other tags that can be derived.
- [20:12:22] <knowprose>
yeah, makes sense.
- [20:13:00] <tantek>
knowprose, note that Technorati tags use a microformat themselves called rel-tag
- [20:13:17] <knowprose>
aha! that's what I was wondering!
- [20:13:25] <bewest>
technorati employs people that work on microformats
- [20:13:31] <bewest>
so there is a tight integration thre :-)
- [20:13:32] <bewest>
there
- [20:13:42] <knowprose>
ok :-) Now I'm learning something.
- [20:14:11] <tantek>
the interesting thing is, I think Yahoo now employs more people that work on/with microformats than Technorati
- [20:14:32] <bewest>
knowprose: yeah, tantek is the connection there... tantek is a major force behind microformats, and also the cto at technorat
- [20:15:10] <knowprose>
Well, I'm just someone trying to negotiate meaning so I can explain it to NGOs. Gotta know it to write it, that sort of thing.
- [20:16:05] <knowprose>
NGO-folk have a tendency to ask for things that they don't need, and have a tendency to do things that they do need.
- [20:16:07] <tantek>
think of microformats as the way to publish and share information on the web with higher fidelity
- [20:16:34] <knowprose>
yeah, you see - that's the kind of phrase that gets NGOs drooling and causes me headaches. :-)
- [20:16:34] <tantek>
for example, if an NGO wanted their contact information to be easily found and shared, they would publish it with hCard
- [20:16:40] <knowprose>
Right.
- [20:17:13] <tantek>
or if an NGO is planning a series of events and wants more people to know about them and add them to their calendars, then they would publish their events listing with hCard
- [20:17:16] <tantek>
hCalendar that is
- [20:17:54] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
- [20:18:05] <bewest>
or use eventDB to take care of it for them
- [20:18:18] <tantek>
for "issue" NGOs, whenever they take a position on some political leader, some piece of legislation etc., if they wanted their evaluation/review/rating of those people/laws to be more easily found and passed around, they would publish such reviews with hReview
- [20:18:30] <tantek>
bewest, right
- [20:18:32] <knowprose>
Makes sense. So now I understand the ground level. My disconnect was understanding the difference between technorati tags (which I already use) and microformats. That's solved.
- [20:18:44] <knowprose>
Now I'm grokking this.
- [20:18:45] <tantek>
for all of these, to make it easier, the NGO should just use a tool or service that supports microformats
- [20:19:07] <knowprose>
right. That's where I come in. :-)
- [20:19:14] <bewest>
:-)
- [20:19:17] <tantek>
but they key here is that microformats are simple/easy enough that the NGO's own web authors/designers can easily add them in themselves
- [20:19:51] <tantek>
adding microformats is easier than publishing an RSS feed for example
- [20:19:57] <tantek>
you don't have to be a programmer
- [20:20:19] <tantek>
anyone with decent (X)HTML+CSS authoring/writing skills can use microformats
- [20:20:35] <knowprose>
That rules out most people within international NGOs. :-D
- [20:20:48] <knowprose>
but it's closer, and they're learning.
- [20:21:23] <knowprose>
considering disaster standards now. I'm on the WorldWideHelp team as well.
- [20:21:36] <tantek>
knowprose, the point is, pretty much anyone who is literate can be taught how to author HTML+CSS
- [20:21:39] <knowprose>
Angelo and I worked out a consistent set of tags to use...
- [20:21:46] <tantek>
and thus microformats makes use of very widely available skill sets
- [20:22:07] <knowprose>
tantek, I understand that, but anyone who is literate can pump their own gas. Some people choose not to. :-)
- [20:22:42] <tantek>
i like that. using microformats is as easy as pumping gas (or plugging in your electric car ;) )
- [20:22:46] <knowprose>
but I do see the potential. :-)
- [20:23:32] <knowprose>
don't say that! I had a Chief in the Navy who didn't know what the black round thing under his hood was! :o
- [20:23:35] <bewest>
in NJ you can't pump you own gs :-)
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- [20:26:29] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [20:26:32] <knowprose>
thanks. I'll stew on it and write about it later... I think now I can browse the Wiki and not get confuffled. :-)
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- [21:12:21] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [21:27:46] <mfbot>
[[what-are-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6528 * Tantek * (+1693) Add Yours Here -
- [21:28:20] * tantek added some of the explanation he gave to knowprose to the wiki so hopefully it helps more folks out.
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- [23:30:48] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
- [23:30:59] <kingryan>
hey briansuda
- [23:31:27] <briansuda>
hello
- [23:31:53] <kingryan>
so, I was working with the hcard tests earlier, and x2v doesn't seem to be working on test #35
- [23:31:58] <kingryan>
not sure why
- [23:32:09] * briansuda is having a look
- [23:32:12] <kingryan>
cool
- [23:32:30] * briansuda is on Dial-up, so please be patient
- [23:36:52] <briansuda>
OK, what version of X2V are you using?
- [23:37:06] <kingryan>
latest from hg
- [23:38:59] <briansuda>
what is the error? because it seems to work for me?
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- [23:40:03] <kingryan>
I have:
- [23:40:04] <kingryan>
changeset: 42:12f6926962c2
- [23:40:04] <kingryan>
tag: tip
- [23:40:04] <kingryan>
parent: 41:2f8763a2bbca
- [23:40:04] <kingryan>
parent: 38:77cef3da3046
- [23:40:07] <kingryan>
user: unknown@t-lva-suda-co-uk.local
- [23:40:09] <kingryan>
date: Mon Apr 24 10:20:09 2006 -0500
- [23:40:12] <kingryan>
summary: merged with Ryan
- [23:41:44] <kingryan>
you have the lastest version of the tests?
- [23:42:26] <briansuda>
probably not... let me check
- [23:42:40] <kingryan>
here's the error I get:
- [23:42:41] <kingryan>
~/microformats/tests ryan$ bin/test-xsltproc.pl hcard/35-include-pattern
- [23:42:41] <kingryan>
FAIL hcard/35-include-pattern
- [23:42:41] <kingryan>
10,11d9
- [23:42:41] <kingryan>
< FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:James Levine
- [23:42:43] <kingryan>
< N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Levine;James;;;
- [23:43:03] <briansuda>
oh, i was looking at test #5 not #35
- [23:43:15] <briansuda>
reset, start again
- [23:43:19] <kingryan>
and the web version doesn't work either: http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://microformats.org/test/hcard/35-include-pattern.html
- [23:43:38] <kingryan>
you know you can run just one test, right?
- [23:43:56] <kingryan>
bin/test-xstlproc.pl hcard/35-include-pattern
- [23:44:36] <briansuda>
yes
- [23:44:40] <kingryan>
k
- [23:45:04] <briansuda>
ok, i know what this is.
- [23:45:34] <kingryan>
yeah?
- [23:45:35] <briansuda>
this is an unresolved issue with the include pattern
- [23:46:19] <kingryan>
what's the issue?
- [23:46:23] <briansuda>
the IDREF, i was advocating that the CHILDREN of that be included, but in the test it is one the same element as class="fn" and NOT a child and therefore ignored
- [23:46:33] <kingryan>
ah, gotcha
- [23:47:18] <briansuda>
The easy fix in XSLT would then allow class="vcard fn ..." which we are avoiding.
- [23:47:38] <briansuda>
i never got around to seeing there was another way, all these confernces got in the way
- [23:48:00] <briansuda>
DanC, tantek and I all emailed about it, i'm not sure if it was on the list or not.
- [23:48:04] <kingryan>
well, let's air the issue out and resolve it first
- [23:48:17] <kingryan>
I don't think so
- [23:48:29] <kingryan>
we should email the list and see if we can get consensus
- [23:49:25] <briansuda>
i think it is on the mf-dev list
- [23:49:30] * briansuda looks for a link
- [23:50:06] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2006-April/000091.html
- [23:50:08] <kingryan>
you're right, I found it
- [23:51:14] <briansuda>
DanC's suggestion of changing .//* to descendant-or-self::* opens abit of a pandora's box
- [23:51:39] <kingryan>
well, let's ignore x2v for the time being
- [23:51:51] <kingryan>
'cause its not always going to be the only parser
- [23:51:55] <kingryan>
(and its already not)
- [23:57:46] <mfbot>
[[include-pattern-issues]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-issues * RyanKing * (+122) added link to issues email
- [23:58:06] * bear is now known as bear_dinner
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