IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-06-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:15:11] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  2. [00:15:55] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  3. [00:16:23] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  4. [00:16:34] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  5. [00:20:20] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-226-145-189.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  6. [00:33:59] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  7. [00:39:47] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Success)
  8. [01:01:05] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  9. [01:03:20] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  10. [01:04:34] <factoryjoe> tantek: ping
  11. [01:35:30] <yakk> we need irc ping-o-matic
  12. [01:50:35] <tantek> yakk, what do you mean by that?
  13. [01:51:41] <evanpro> if you ping tantek, then you also ping everyone who's interested in what tantek thinks
  14. [01:51:45] <evanpro> it's a pub-sub model
  15. [01:51:58] <evanpro> B-)
  16. [01:58:09] <yakk> or it could ping across all the networks
  17. [01:58:20] <yakk> or it could proxy pings to other protocols
  18. [01:58:27] <yakk> we don't actually need this - it was just a silly idea :)
  19. [02:05:24] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit ("->home")
  20. [02:05:27] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  21. [02:09:02] <evanpro> <yakk> or it could proxy pings to other protocols
  22. [02:09:06] * hendry_ (n=hendry@222.106.128.78) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  23. [02:09:10] <evanpro> Like poke-in-the-arm protocol
  24. [02:09:47] <evanpro> Are ya busy? Hmm? How about now? Can you talk? Hey?
  25. [02:10:02] <evanpro> poke poke poke poke poke poke poke
  26. [02:11:24] <factoryjoe> yakk: talk to termie
  27. [02:11:28] <factoryjoe> he has already built that
  28. [02:11:28] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  29. [02:11:34] <factoryjoe> synced w/ his cell phone
  30. [02:13:15] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  31. [02:20:37] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  32. [02:20:52] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  33. [02:23:31] * Remi (n=remi@c66.110.146-231.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  34. [02:46:30] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-073-002.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  35. [03:00:01] * bear_dinner is now known as bear_afk
  36. [04:12:19] * amette__ (n=amette@p54B89E1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  37. [04:13:33] * amette_ (n=amette@p54B8A19D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  38. [04:16:23] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  39. [04:25:21] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  40. [04:28:15] * Zeo (n=zeo@60.50.247.214) has joined #microformats
  41. [04:39:05] * schepers (n=schepers@Ottawa-HSE-ppp260794.sympatico.ca) has joined #microformats
  42. [04:48:09] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  43. [04:48:09] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  44. [04:57:20] <mfbot> [[citation-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=citation-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=6522 * JoeAndrieu * (+0) Schema -
  45. [05:04:06] * DanC (n=connolly@pdpc/supporter/active/DanC) Quit ("Client exiting")
  46. [05:13:02] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@c-24-63-36-43.hsd1.ma.comcast.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  47. [05:29:27] * josh (n=josh@c-67-176-175-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  48. [05:30:02] * josh is now known as joshp
  49. [05:30:58] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  50. [05:30:59] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  51. [05:37:02] * joshp (n=josh@c-67-176-175-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit ()
  52. [05:38:01] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  53. [05:42:13] * joshp (n=josh@c-67-176-175-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  54. [05:42:42] * joshp (n=josh@c-67-176-175-6.hsd1.il.comcast.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  55. [05:46:34] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-91-220.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  56. [05:46:38] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/picoformats * Chris Messina * (+575)
  57. [05:47:14] <mfbot> [[picoformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats&diff=0&oldid=6523 * Chris Messina * (+48)
  58. [05:53:39] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  59. [06:00:44] * bear_afk (n=bear@c-71-230-109-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  60. [06:05:31] * _bear_ (n=bear@c-71-230-109-9.hsd1.pa.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  61. [06:06:09] * _bear_ is now known as bear_afk
  62. [06:09:12] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  63. [06:18:12] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  64. [06:20:26] <mfbot> [[Talk:Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6524 * Rrrrrrrrr * (+16135)
  65. [06:26:15] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  66. [06:29:54] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  67. [06:39:12] * valmont (n=chrishol@dsl092-043-004.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  68. [06:46:35] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  69. [06:46:38] <mfbot> [[Talk:Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=6525 * Tantek * (-16135) Reverted edit of Rrrrrrrrr, changed back to last version by RobertBachmann
  70. [06:47:03] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:Rrrrrrrrr" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  71. [07:05:38] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  72. [07:05:39] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  73. [07:18:07] <KevinMarks> http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/CommentView.aspx?guid=96747D35-9190-483B-95E2-5B1CCAB48DF2#ab1f016e-400c-409c-9ea2-71a7bf9b2f60
  74. [07:43:04] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  75. [07:51:07] * znarfor (n=znarf@nor75-17-82-67-199-96.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  76. [08:01:53] * schepers (n=schepers@Ottawa-HSE-ppp260794.sympatico.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  77. [08:18:17] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  78. [08:24:07] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  79. [08:24:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and runs www.csslounge.co.uk
  80. [08:29:20] * iwaim_ (i=iwai@reah.alib.jp) has joined #microformats
  81. [08:30:57] * iwaim (i=iwai@reah.alib.jp) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  82. [08:49:45] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  83. [08:51:03] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  84. [08:53:13] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  85. [08:53:54] * Zeo (n=zeo@60.50.247.214) Quit ("What the ...")
  86. [09:04:40] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  87. [10:54:30] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  88. [10:56:12] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) has joined #microformats
  89. [10:56:13] <jibot> Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
  90. [10:57:46] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  91. [11:49:15] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  92. [11:49:16] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  93. [11:59:52] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ()
  94. [12:01:33] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  95. [12:13:42] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  96. [12:13:42] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  97. [12:14:46] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ()
  98. [12:15:24] <mfbot> [[screencasts]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=screencasts&diff=0&oldid=6526 * DrewMcLellan * (+120) this year -
  99. [12:33:53] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  100. [12:33:54] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  101. [13:02:27] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  102. [13:23:03] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-13-29.rmo.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  103. [13:35:16] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  104. [13:35:21] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) has joined #microformats
  105. [13:36:06] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  106. [13:37:35] * ichigo (n=ichigo@80.123.59.119) has joined #microformats
  107. [13:41:45] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  108. [13:46:55] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  109. [13:46:56] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  110. [13:51:27] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  111. [13:53:16] * danja (n=danja@host141-220.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Client Quit)
  112. [13:59:44] <pnhChris> oh look.. cork'd has hcards in their profiles
  113. [14:02:07] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  114. [14:02:07] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  115. [14:14:06] <pnhChris> KevinMarks: dupes in the flickr listings? http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/casciano
  116. [14:20:18] <briansuda> but not for this one: http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/quincejam
  117. [14:21:47] <pnhChris> oh you know what
  118. [14:21:54] <pnhChris> hmmm
  119. [14:22:03] <pnhChris> is it picking up on changes to friends lists
  120. [14:22:18] <pnhChris> or other content
  121. [14:22:37] <pnhChris> and relisting
  122. [14:22:39] <pnhChris> i wonder
  123. [14:22:56] <pnhChris> that would explain that difference briansuda ... recently added contact
  124. [14:23:37] <briansuda> yeah, the search is conducted over the WHOLE document, but ONLY the Microformat content is presented in the results
  125. [14:23:48] <briansuda> not exactly how i'd do it, but it's not my company
  126. [14:24:17] <pnhChris> yeah.. it really could use some more advanced search options
  127. [14:24:23] <pnhChris> but some of that gets real messy
  128. [14:24:36] <pnhChris> "search for chris in fields 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7"
  129. [14:25:10] <pnhChris> but i'm not sure how to resolve the update to a card and re-ping issue
  130. [14:25:31] <pnhChris> i guess delete all old ones at that url... can't really rely on fragment identifiers
  131. [14:25:44] <pnhChris> but its not my problem either
  132. [14:25:56] <pnhChris> directly at least
  133. [14:26:32] <pnhChris> the more interesting question is how can we publish data to make results like this -- http://kitchen.technorati.com/contact/search/chris -- be smarter
  134. [14:26:40] <pnhChris> and more useful
  135. [14:27:37] <briansuda> the other issue which will start to pop-up is the flooding of invalid data. I can add an hCard about you and put loads of false information.
  136. [14:29:18] * amette__ is now known as amette
  137. [14:29:21] <pnhChris> which is a nearly impossible task... at least that's the answer i get after thinking about it for 30 seconds
  138. [14:31:04] <tantek> pnhChris, you're right that it's picking up any change to your hCard contents
  139. [14:31:23] <pnhChris> tantek: no, i think it is.. with multiple pings
  140. [14:31:36] <pnhChris> but storing / displaying them as multiple records
  141. [14:31:39] <tantek> we're being a bit liberal with showing changed content
  142. [14:31:46] <tantek> yes
  143. [14:32:10] * pnhChris nods
  144. [14:32:18] <tantek> we'll likely start collapsing some of that relatively soon, but for now found have left it in to help with debugging etc.
  145. [14:32:42] <tantek> it is definitely a bit more of an "open" technology preview in that regard
  146. [14:33:01] <pnhChris> .. but espeecially with sites like flickr that hold some info private.. there really isn't anyhting stopping me from registering as bria suda with public info X,Y + Z that correlates to the same attributes as your "real" data
  147. [14:33:04] <tantek> we really wanted to give the community something to play with soon and iterate based on feedback from the community
  148. [14:33:25] <pnhChris> .. flickr being benign... unless you're posting goatse
  149. [14:33:32] <tantek> the problem of spoofing content on the web is certainly not a new one
  150. [14:33:57] <pnhChris> but s/flickr/a white power friendster/ or something else you wouldn't want to be assoicated with "you"
  151. [14:34:01] <pnhChris> nope
  152. [14:34:17] <pnhChris> but making assumptions during aggrigation in a bit newer
  153. [14:34:19] <pnhChris> or at least
  154. [14:34:28] <pnhChris> requires understanding that
  155. [14:34:37] <tantek> hence why there is very little aggregation in the results right now
  156. [14:35:46] <tantek> one of the big reasons I developed XFN with Matt and Eric was to provide at least the beginnings of a building block for various forms of distributed implied trust and recognition
  157. [14:36:13] <pnhChris> even then, you'd have to control all the points... or a list of all the valid points
  158. [14:36:20] * ichigo (n=ichigo@80.123.59.119) Quit ()
  159. [14:36:32] <tantek> no, you don't have to control "all the points"
  160. [14:36:41] <tantek> it's more about raising some results above others
  161. [14:36:50] <tantek> due to greater implied trust/recognition
  162. [14:37:00] <tantek> rel="me" let's you explicitly indicate that various different profiles are the same person for example
  163. [14:37:07] <tantek> those can obviously be strongly preferred in any aggregation
  164. [14:37:47] <pnhChris> so the white power friendseter adds XFN
  165. [14:38:06] <pnhChris> and you're back to an identical record as the one on friendster
  166. [14:38:14] <tantek> See http://gmpg.org/xfn/and/#idconsolidation for more
  167. [14:38:24] <tantek> no, you're back to an island
  168. [14:39:24] <tantek> the point is that by other folks indicating that you are a colleague etc., that information is implied to be more trusted
  169. [14:40:18] <tantek> the first occurrences of such bad data will likely be spam rather than any kind of overtly negative stuff as you suggest
  170. [14:40:42] <tantek> at least if present behavior on blogs is any indication
  171. [14:41:04] <pnhChris> sure
  172. [14:41:55] <pnhChris> but the implications on aggrigating for less spam-worthy results/names .. and common names in general (chris) are there as well
  173. [14:41:57] <briansuda> but pingerati doesn't do just blogs
  174. [14:42:12] <tantek> right
  175. [14:42:17] <tantek> but the fact remains the same
  176. [14:42:27] <tantek> economically spam provides more incentive than hate
  177. [14:42:41] <tantek> before blogs people spammed meta keywords etc.
  178. [14:43:30] <pnhChris> its definitely a wider data problem
  179. [14:44:25] <pnhChris> i dunno
  180. [14:44:52] <pnhChris> but from a publisher standpoint i'm not looking to solve /that/ problem as much
  181. [14:45:06] <pnhChris> as i am providing enough info to correlate records
  182. [14:45:14] <dglazkov> need some sort of voting/karma system for microformats search :)
  183. [14:45:22] <pnhChris> and that's where spoofing on an individual leve becomes a problem
  184. [14:45:36] <pnhChris> .. or linking valid recods
  185. [14:46:10] <dglazkov> the beauty of decentralized database is that the aggregator has control of what to include or not
  186. [14:46:23] <dglazkov> instead of needing to control what to store or not
  187. [14:47:53] <pnhChris> ... and doing so for people / contacts that don't neccesarily have a "home page" where they can house a list of all their mentions with rel=me
  188. [14:48:23] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  189. [14:48:24] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  190. [14:48:59] <pnhChris> just rambling at this point, i know.. but its what hits me when i see the search results starting to build records wise
  191. [14:50:27] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  192. [14:50:57] <tantek> dglazkov - XFN provides sufficient information to imply some sort of karma
  193. [14:52:03] <pnhChris> though I'd have to think hcard would imply some of that karma
  194. [14:52:53] <pnhChris> vcard class="url" says "them" just as directly
  195. [14:53:35] <pnhChris> (as in my chunkysoup.net vcard.. with url of placenamehere.com but no xfn)
  196. [14:53:47] <tantek> no, hcard does not imply any karma - it only self-describes
  197. [14:54:18] <tantek> hyperlinks to *other* folks imply some karma, as modern search engines have already taken into account
  198. [14:54:32] <tantek> hyperlinks+XFN take it one more step and imply even more
  199. [14:54:33] * EliasT_ (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  200. [14:56:06] <pnhChris> so is address class="vcard" class="url" not descriptive enough to make assumptions about connectedness.. .to say its soemthing that the thing at the url that wrote?
  201. [14:56:12] <pnhChris> seems silly to me
  202. [14:56:50] <dglazkov> does your current search do anything w/XFN?
  203. [14:56:51] <pnhChris> i'm not sure what it "says" sematically if that's not it
  204. [14:57:07] <briansuda> be aware that the current proposal to include IM accounts is class="url" href="aim:foobar"
  205. [14:57:15] <tantek> it says that is one of the urls associated with that hCard
  206. [14:57:44] <tantek> dglazkov, we're indexing some XFN but we're not surfacing it yet
  207. [14:57:50] <pnhChris> but what do you do with that on aggrigation
  208. [14:57:52] <dglazkov> cool
  209. [14:57:59] <pnhChris> certainly more then any old link to that URL
  210. [14:58:01] <pnhChris> no?
  211. [14:58:06] <pnhChris> if not, why?
  212. [14:58:15] <dglazkov> btw, tantek, are you fully parsing HTML (tidy, etc.) or pattern-matching until you see what you're interested in?
  213. [14:58:25] <tantek> Chris, perhaps. It will take some more analysis.
  214. [14:58:47] <tantek> dglazkov, we're using a combination of checking the fields and doing some relevance as well
  215. [14:59:00] <pnhChris> just because XFN is an established way to make that connection, i don't think that leaves hcard implying nothing
  216. [14:59:01] <tantek> the first cut was to make it as easy as possible for people to search
  217. [14:59:15] * dglazkov is setting out to build uf parser for ASP.NET
  218. [14:59:25] <dglazkov> watch this space for project announcement
  219. [14:59:32] <pnhChris> i mean any aggrigator can certainly decide on their own how they want to use that information
  220. [14:59:33] <tantek> dglakov, great!
  221. [14:59:41] <tantek> I'm not saying it implies nothing Chris, I'm just saying it doesn't imply karma
  222. [14:59:50] <tantek> it is not a measure *between* individuals
  223. [15:00:02] <tantek> whereas XFN is
  224. [15:00:51] <tantek> the 'url' property in hCard/hCalendar etc. *does* imply a greater association for aggregation, but does not imply any karma, or any kind of "recommendation" of one individual by another
  225. [15:00:56] <pnhChris> then we're talking past each other.. becuase i'm talking about linking records from a publishers standpoint so that aggrigators can work with the records better
  226. [15:01:35] <pnhChris> and making that connection between, say, placenamehere and chunkysoup
  227. [15:01:47] <tantek> you're not talking about any form of "karma" or reputation as classically discussed then
  228. [15:01:48] <pnhChris> or joe smith at lfickr and jo smith at corkd
  229. [15:01:55] <tantek> that's identity consolidation
  230. [15:02:03] <tantek> and accomplished with bidirectional rel="me" links
  231. [15:02:33] <tantek> for one, we've been using rel="me" with Technorati profiles and embeds for quite some time
  232. [15:02:47] <tantek> so when you claim a blog, it links your profile to your blog with rel="me"
  233. [15:03:07] <tantek> and if you include the embed code in your blog and have it link to your profile, then it does so with rel="me" as well
  234. [15:03:10] <pnhChris> but as i said.. if one doesn't have a "home page" where they can provide the corresponding rel me
  235. [15:03:17] <pnhChris> or hasn't
  236. [15:03:32] <tantek> then you have no place to put the hCard right?
  237. [15:03:55] <tantek> the "if one doesn't have a home page" argument is basically akin to the "if one doesn't have an email address" argument of about 20 years ago
  238. [15:04:12] <tantek> it's effectively a non-problem, or will soon be so
  239. [15:04:37] <pnhChris> the reciprical linking requires a place where i can keep links to 30 sites I have profiles with and keep up with whichs ones hav epublic or private profiles as i subscribe to them on a whim
  240. [15:04:40] <tantek> with 70m+ people with their own myspace profiles etc., this is not a problem
  241. [15:05:23] <pnhChris> though most of those proviles, in the context of your new search.. if they get listed will have the one way hcard class=url
  242. [15:05:39] <pnhChris> and what do you do with that.. or how does that factor in
  243. [15:05:42] <pnhChris> was all i was going for
  244. [15:05:48] <pnhChris> you were working on a different problem
  245. [15:05:53] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  246. [15:06:29] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  247. [15:06:30] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  248. [15:06:50] <pnhChris> anyway
  249. [15:07:09] * izo (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Client Quit)
  250. [15:07:11] <pnhChris> as i stated.. its mostly just rambling from me... and .. well.. don't have much more time for that
  251. [15:07:14] <pnhChris> :/
  252. [15:07:26] <pnhChris> not today anywa
  253. [15:07:28] <pnhChris> way
  254. [15:08:43] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
  255. [15:13:34] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  256. [15:13:45] <pnhChris> i guess to me the question is what is the goal of searching for hcards.. its to get a specific peice of information on someone, to build a big profile/consolidated vcard, or to see where what they touch (profiles, comments, blog posts, mentions)... xfn only helps with some of that... and relying on xfn hurts some other (e.g. hcard'd blog comments that will never have xfn, and thus may drop in certain search output that relies o
  257. [15:13:56] <pnhChris> and with that
  258. [15:14:01] * pnhChris is now known as pnhAway
  259. [15:15:53] <tantek> xfn is for indicating the social ties from which you can infer other facets of trust
  260. [15:16:17] <tantek> publishing and searching hCards essentially enables a world wide distributed addressbook
  261. [15:18:37] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N086P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
  262. [15:18:38] <jibot> RobertBachmann is Robert Bachmann <http://rbach.priv.at/> and lives in Austria (Timezone: UTC 02)
  263. [15:19:19] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  264. [15:23:03] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  265. [15:24:06] * tantek sets mode +o briansuda
  266. [15:24:16] * tantek sets mode +o RobertBachmann
  267. [15:24:48] <pnhAway> but i'm having trouble seeing that jump from publishing individual snippits of contact information makes individual consumption on an individual basis easier as well as offering some context clues to something that is the basis for a world wide address book
  268. [15:27:02] <pnhAway> especially with short hcards in blog posts, comments, mentions, etc. that have little value to add to that global address book, but might have more value in identifying connections
  269. [15:28:48] <pnhAway> if netflix goes behind my back and makes a public profile page that gets indexed.. its certainly me
  270. [15:29:41] <pnhAway> that doesn't change that its a prfile that can be connected (via email or url or whatever else) back to me, or not
  271. [15:30:01] <pnhAway> so how do you aggrigate anything with that level of detail
  272. [15:30:05] <pnhAway> or do you not
  273. [15:30:16] <pnhAway> and if you dont', what benefit is searching the web
  274. [15:30:20] <pnhAway> for contact info
  275. [15:31:36] <pnhAway> or you get a subset of data for one or two promeinet people with lots of friends and the rest gets lots
  276. [15:31:39] <pnhAway> lost
  277. [15:31:51] <pnhAway> .. becuase you just can't aggrigate the rest
  278. [15:33:29] <pnhAway> stuff that works on the individual level... i can go to my friend jo smith's web page and import their data to my address book and know i have that information.. but i don't know how searching the web for hcard'd info would be a useful alternative
  279. [15:34:32] <pnhAway> particularly if they weren't my friend where i'd konw their home page already but someone that i needed to chase down
  280. [15:34:34] <tantek> searching the web for hcard'd info may be how you would find your friend's contact info web page in the first place
  281. [15:34:38] <tantek> that's the point
  282. [15:35:08] <tantek> people use traditional search engines right now to search for other people
  283. [15:35:30] <tantek> and you get tons more false positives
  284. [15:35:56] <tantek> hCard improves upon that experience significantly
  285. [15:36:34] <tantek> and not only that, but eliminates the "copy paste each piece of info about the person one property at a time" tediousness once you *do* find that contact info
  286. [15:36:57] <tantek> it certainly won't be perfect or solve all possible problems
  287. [15:37:28] <tantek> but then again, that's not the point, nor is it a goal of microformats
  288. [15:38:16] <tantek> we leave perfection and solving all possible problems to smarter people with more time on their hands ;)
  289. [15:39:21] <briansuda> tantek, if i search for you i get my flickr page because you are a contact of mine, and my hCard appears. That's pretty close to a false positive
  290. [15:39:33] <tantek> not really brian
  291. [15:39:43] <tantek> it does indicate some relevance which is acurate
  292. [15:39:47] <tantek> accurate even ;)
  293. [15:40:07] <tantek> of course we'll continue to tweak the algorithms and improve them as the dataset grows and we gain more experience
  294. [15:40:32] <tantek> you can imagine how when those contact lists/links are marked up with XFN, then it becomes even easier to do so
  295. [15:40:42] * briansuda should complain since it is still the kinks are still being worked out
  296. [15:41:26] <tantek> and think about it this way brian, if someone were to search for me, and all they found was your flickr page, at least now they may have potentially found a way to contact me
  297. [15:42:13] <tantek> so I don't think it is a false positive at all, it's just of less relevance than my flickr page
  298. [15:43:25] <briansuda> true, but as the index grows it might become overwheling to get 12,000 results for 'john'
  299. [15:43:50] <tantek> how is that any different than looking up "Smith" in the white pages phone directory?
  300. [15:43:58] <tantek> and yes, the world is a big place with lots of people
  301. [15:44:01] <briansuda> although you might be able to do some really interesting 6-degrees of seperation with the results
  302. [15:44:10] <tantek> right - that's where the XFN will come in
  303. [15:44:26] <briansuda> The difference is that you KNOW 'smith' is the last name, where as with your search 'smith' is on the page
  304. [15:44:41] <briansuda> the difference is semantics versus occurance
  305. [15:45:18] <tantek> right, so you'll want to list results with the first or last name of "smith" before those with additional-name, before those with mentions or nearby text etc. -- that's the point of relevance ranking
  306. [15:45:35] <briansuda> agreed.
  307. [15:45:57] * cgriego_ (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
  308. [15:46:14] <tantek> and when we do end up with hundreds of millions (or even billions) of hCards on the web, it will present a very interesting challenge to user interface designers
  309. [15:46:26] <tantek> how to build a UI for an addressbook of that many people?
  310. [15:46:27] * EliasT_ is now known as EliasT
  311. [15:46:37] <tantek> even today's social networking sites have problems with that
  312. [15:47:28] <tantek> even *personal* address books are growing - it is not unheard of for people to have thousands of contacts in their address book, and current address book UIs just don't cut it
  313. [15:48:12] <tantek> (these numbers are true despite many so-called experts clinging to the overly hyped "150" number etc.)
  314. [15:48:37] <tantek> but these are good challenges to have
  315. [15:48:51] <tantek> good opportunities for people to figure out new applications, new services, new interfaces
  316. [15:52:39] * EliasT_ (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  317. [15:52:41] <pnhAway> the problem isn't just that there are billions of hcards out there.. its that 500 of them are "me" because of the way hcard is used outside of profile pages that I directly have a hand in creating
  318. [15:53:08] <pnhAway> and all have various levels of detail and quality
  319. [15:54:35] <tantek> well, both are challenges
  320. [15:55:55] <tantek> think about it this way, computers and PDAs are just barely getting to the point where they can sync the contacts of *one person* somewhat reasonably - even now, all cases that I know have some data loss due to inconsistent feature support
  321. [15:56:42] <tantek> syncing (or merging/aggregating, same difference) the contacts from *multiple sources* is even more challenging
  322. [15:56:46] <tantek> yet not impossible
  323. [15:56:54] <tantek> it's just going to take more clever code etc.
  324. [15:57:04] <pnhAway> which is why i can see the use on an individual import basis of hcard
  325. [15:57:10] <pnhAway> but i can't make that leap in context
  326. [15:57:27] <tantek> and to some extent, again your problem of "hcard used outside of your own profile pages" is the same as web pages today
  327. [15:57:37] <tantek> you're not stating a new problem at all
  328. [15:57:49] <pnhAway> or that leap in application from extracting info on something you have, to getting info from an object you don't konw about
  329. [15:57:59] <tantek> you're stating an old problem, which hCard does a better job at than preexisting solutions
  330. [15:58:03] * RobertBachmann (n=RobertBa@N086P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  331. [15:58:11] <pnhAway> no, i'm just thinking very literally about the problem
  332. [15:58:39] <pnhAway> with the things and uses i see infront of me and that i know are being published about one data item, me
  333. [15:58:51] <pnhAway> and thinking of how to better manage that
  334. [15:58:59] <tantek> they were being published about you before hCard even existed
  335. [15:59:03] <tantek> and the mess was even worse
  336. [15:59:04] <pnhAway> just not abstracting that into a broader content
  337. [15:59:07] <tantek> that's easy to forget
  338. [15:59:07] <pnhAway> sure
  339. [15:59:12] <tantek> that's my larger point
  340. [15:59:18] <tantek> we're not solving all the problems with just this one step
  341. [15:59:23] <tantek> but we are making things better
  342. [15:59:30] <tantek> of course there is still much to do
  343. [15:59:38] <pnhAway> but i worry that there isn't enough definition to do much more then we did before
  344. [15:59:47] <tantek> there's plenty
  345. [15:59:55] <tantek> you know which hCards have more details
  346. [16:00:06] <tantek> and which are merely tokens of your presence, like comment authorship
  347. [16:01:07] <pnhAway> on an individual occuracne and with me looking it over, yes, i can see that
  348. [16:01:27] <tantek> and similarly, search engines can tell that too, now that those details are marked up with hCard
  349. [16:01:47] <tantek> whereas before, that was *much* more difficult (if possible at all), and of very poor accuracy
  350. [16:03:48] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  351. [16:04:30] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  352. [16:07:07] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  353. [16:09:52] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  354. [16:13:13] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  355. [16:18:59] * pnhAway (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  356. [16:20:58] * amette (n=amette@p54B89E1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  357. [16:22:10] * amette (n=amette@pD9E6AC83.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  358. [16:47:15] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable017.43-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  359. [16:52:31] * EliasT_ (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  360. [17:22:46] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  361. [17:23:19] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  362. [17:26:02] * Zeo (n=zeo@60.51.126.227) has joined #microformats
  363. [17:29:25] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  364. [17:37:14] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=6527 * PatRamsey * (+202) Examples in the wild -
  365. [17:39:52] * valmont_ (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
  366. [17:44:58] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  367. [18:03:06] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  368. [18:04:27] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit (Excess Flood)
  369. [18:05:28] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  370. [18:10:46] <bewest> yay... looks like I convinced a developer to index microformats from our crawls
  371. [18:10:55] <bewest> if they don't I"
  372. [18:10:59] <bewest> I'll work on it on my own time
  373. [18:11:32] <bewest> it'll be nifty since no ping is needed
  374. [18:11:51] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  375. [18:11:51] <jibot> hober is Edward O'Connor and works for EVDB on http://eventful.com/ and lives in San Diego, CA (-08:00)
  376. [18:18:13] <KevinMarks> what are you crawling?
  377. [18:23:46] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  378. [18:23:47] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  379. [18:24:00] <KevinMarks> ah, Alexa. we could feed you page pings if you want them
  380. [18:26:25] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  381. [18:26:52] <bewest> hmmm
  382. [18:27:03] <bewest> that might come later
  383. [18:27:18] <bewest> dunno if you know about our new product
  384. [18:27:20] <bewest> called AWSP
  385. [18:27:25] <bewest> we are developing some samle apps
  386. [18:27:35] <bewest> and I think I've convinced them to do a microformats search
  387. [18:27:53] <bewest> dunno if it'll be all uf though or just hcard
  388. [18:28:54] <bewest> I'm excited about it
  389. [18:29:10] <bewest> I was going to start on it myself last night but I forgot my password
  390. [18:29:13] <bewest> speaking of which
  391. [18:29:14] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  392. [18:41:14] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  393. [18:42:14] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  394. [18:42:15] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
  395. [18:42:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  396. [18:42:28] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  397. [18:42:57] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  398. [18:49:38] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  399. [18:53:59] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  400. [18:54:02] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  401. [18:57:43] * markp (n=markp@adsl-221-13-29.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  402. [18:58:50] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  403. [19:01:14] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  404. [19:19:09] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) has joined #microformats
  405. [19:30:43] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  406. [19:30:44] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00)
  407. [19:31:24] * bear is now known as bear_lunch
  408. [19:40:45] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  409. [19:48:14] * EliasT (n=EliasT_@bi01pt1.ct.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  410. [19:54:59] * rVidia (n=chatzill@adsl-074-229-047-019.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  411. [19:55:44] <rVidia> Excuse me, I have a question. Someone told me to go to freenode because I want to make IRC for my website but I cannot understand how to.
  412. [19:56:48] * bear_lunch is now known as bear
  413. [19:57:09] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  414. [19:58:37] <rVidia> Could anyone possibly help me with this?
  415. [20:00:27] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  416. [20:00:28] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  417. [20:00:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  418. [20:01:19] <rVidia> Excuse me could you possibly help me with something? I was told to go to freenode because I want to make IRC for my website but I cannot understand how.
  419. [20:06:08] * knowprose (n=chatzill@cuscon22606.tstt.net.tt) has joined #microformats
  420. [20:06:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) has joined #Microformats
  421. [20:06:41] * LTjake (n=brian@h64-5-219-130.gtcust.grouptelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  422. [20:07:07] * rVidia (n=chatzill@adsl-074-229-047-019.sip.bct.bellsouth.net) has left #microformats
  423. [20:07:14] <knowprose> question: Is there a place that plainly defines what a microformat is supposed to do without all the buzzwords? :-)
  424. [20:09:51] <bewest> microformats allow you to encode useful information in a zero-sum kind of way
  425. [20:10:08] <bewest> the technology that does it is already available, it takes advantage of pre-existing standards
  426. [20:10:26] <knowprose> right, I grok that. I guess what I'm trying to do is explain to someone how they differ from pre-existing Technorati tags.
  427. [20:10:32] <bewest> but allows you to manipulate complex data-types in an way that is atomic from a user inteface perspective
  428. [20:10:53] <knowprose> standards driven, like XML?
  429. [20:11:07] <bewest> actually microformats encodes all data in xhtml
  430. [20:11:30] <bewest> so it's really a formalized convention for authoring xhtml
  431. [20:11:52] <bewest> although you can use html
  432. [20:12:12] <bewest> the reason behind that is because html/xhtml is already consumed with decent support
  433. [20:12:15] <knowprose> ok. So, for common things there will be common microformats - like the hcard example. But for particular things, there will be other tags that can be derived.
  434. [20:12:22] <knowprose> yeah, makes sense.
  435. [20:13:00] <tantek> knowprose, note that Technorati tags use a microformat themselves called rel-tag
  436. [20:13:17] <knowprose> aha! that's what I was wondering!
  437. [20:13:25] <bewest> technorati employs people that work on microformats
  438. [20:13:31] <bewest> so there is a tight integration thre :-)
  439. [20:13:32] <bewest> there
  440. [20:13:42] <knowprose> ok :-) Now I'm learning something.
  441. [20:14:11] <tantek> the interesting thing is, I think Yahoo now employs more people that work on/with microformats than Technorati
  442. [20:14:32] <bewest> knowprose: yeah, tantek is the connection there... tantek is a major force behind microformats, and also the cto at technorat
  443. [20:15:10] <knowprose> Well, I'm just someone trying to negotiate meaning so I can explain it to NGOs. Gotta know it to write it, that sort of thing.
  444. [20:16:05] <knowprose> NGO-folk have a tendency to ask for things that they don't need, and have a tendency to do things that they do need.
  445. [20:16:07] <tantek> think of microformats as the way to publish and share information on the web with higher fidelity
  446. [20:16:34] <knowprose> yeah, you see - that's the kind of phrase that gets NGOs drooling and causes me headaches. :-)
  447. [20:16:34] <tantek> for example, if an NGO wanted their contact information to be easily found and shared, they would publish it with hCard
  448. [20:16:40] <knowprose> Right.
  449. [20:17:13] <tantek> or if an NGO is planning a series of events and wants more people to know about them and add them to their calendars, then they would publish their events listing with hCard
  450. [20:17:16] <tantek> hCalendar that is
  451. [20:17:54] * bear is now known as bear_mtg
  452. [20:18:05] <bewest> or use eventDB to take care of it for them
  453. [20:18:18] <tantek> for "issue" NGOs, whenever they take a position on some political leader, some piece of legislation etc., if they wanted their evaluation/review/rating of those people/laws to be more easily found and passed around, they would publish such reviews with hReview
  454. [20:18:30] <tantek> bewest, right
  455. [20:18:32] <knowprose> Makes sense. So now I understand the ground level. My disconnect was understanding the difference between technorati tags (which I already use) and microformats. That's solved.
  456. [20:18:44] <knowprose> Now I'm grokking this.
  457. [20:18:45] <tantek> for all of these, to make it easier, the NGO should just use a tool or service that supports microformats
  458. [20:19:07] <knowprose> right. That's where I come in. :-)
  459. [20:19:14] <bewest> :-)
  460. [20:19:17] <tantek> but they key here is that microformats are simple/easy enough that the NGO's own web authors/designers can easily add them in themselves
  461. [20:19:51] <tantek> adding microformats is easier than publishing an RSS feed for example
  462. [20:19:57] <tantek> you don't have to be a programmer
  463. [20:20:19] <tantek> anyone with decent (X)HTML+CSS authoring/writing skills can use microformats
  464. [20:20:35] <knowprose> That rules out most people within international NGOs. :-D
  465. [20:20:48] <knowprose> but it's closer, and they're learning.
  466. [20:21:23] <knowprose> considering disaster standards now. I'm on the WorldWideHelp team as well.
  467. [20:21:36] <tantek> knowprose, the point is, pretty much anyone who is literate can be taught how to author HTML+CSS
  468. [20:21:39] <knowprose> Angelo and I worked out a consistent set of tags to use...
  469. [20:21:46] <tantek> and thus microformats makes use of very widely available skill sets
  470. [20:22:07] <knowprose> tantek, I understand that, but anyone who is literate can pump their own gas. Some people choose not to. :-)
  471. [20:22:42] <tantek> i like that. using microformats is as easy as pumping gas (or plugging in your electric car ;) )
  472. [20:22:46] <knowprose> but I do see the potential. :-)
  473. [20:23:32] <knowprose> don't say that! I had a Chief in the Navy who didn't know what the black round thing under his hood was! :o
  474. [20:23:35] <bewest> in NJ you can't pump you own gs :-)
  475. [20:26:28] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-79-212.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  476. [20:26:29] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  477. [20:26:32] <knowprose> thanks. I'll stew on it and write about it later... I think now I can browse the Wiki and not get confuffled. :-)
  478. [20:27:10] * knowprose (n=chatzill@cuscon22606.tstt.net.tt) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.67+ [SeaMonkey 1.0.2/2006051612]")
  479. [20:40:20] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  480. [20:48:16] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  481. [20:48:16] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  482. [20:48:16] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Connection reset by peer)
  483. [20:55:54] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  484. [20:56:09] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  485. [20:56:21] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  486. [20:56:49] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  487. [20:58:57] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  488. [21:01:24] * bear_mtg is now known as bear
  489. [21:04:44] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  490. [21:12:01] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@66.83.191.30.nw.nuvox.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.70 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  491. [21:12:20] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  492. [21:12:21] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  493. [21:17:10] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  494. [21:18:06] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  495. [21:19:32] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  496. [21:22:53] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit (Client Quit)
  497. [21:24:39] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit (Excess Flood)
  498. [21:25:24] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  499. [21:27:33] * gsnedders (n=geoffrey@host86-139-126-254.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  500. [21:27:46] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=6528 * Tantek * (+1693) Add Yours Here -
  501. [21:28:20] * tantek added some of the explanation he gave to knowprose to the wiki so hopefully it helps more folks out.
  502. [21:31:21] * tantek sets mode +o briansuda
  503. [21:31:26] * tantek sets mode +o KevinMarks
  504. [21:36:52] * dmose (n=dmose@dsl081-050-187.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ("Leaving")
  505. [21:39:06] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) Quit ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  506. [21:48:38] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  507. [21:49:48] * bear is now known as bear_afk
  508. [21:52:04] * markp (n=markp@bi01p1.nc.us.ibm.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  509. [22:14:23] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@63-226-145-189.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  510. [22:22:16] * znarfor (n=znarf@nor75-17-82-67-199-96.fbx.proxad.net) has joined #microformats
  511. [22:26:02] * bear_afk is now known as bear
  512. [22:27:12] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  513. [22:27:30] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  514. [22:29:58] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  515. [22:37:05] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  516. [22:38:05] * valmont_ is now known as valmont
  517. [22:49:06] * kingryan sets mode +o tantek_
  518. [22:55:29] * cgriego (n=cgriego@out-02.hotels.com) Quit ()
  519. [22:56:34] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  520. [23:19:19] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  521. [23:19:49] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  522. [23:19:59] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  523. [23:20:09] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  524. [23:20:17] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  525. [23:20:57] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-243.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  526. [23:21:13] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  527. [23:30:47] * briansuda (i=briansud@AC873D73.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  528. [23:30:48] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of X2V fame
  529. [23:30:59] <kingryan> hey briansuda
  530. [23:31:27] <briansuda> hello
  531. [23:31:53] <kingryan> so, I was working with the hcard tests earlier, and x2v doesn't seem to be working on test #35
  532. [23:31:58] <kingryan> not sure why
  533. [23:32:09] * briansuda is having a look
  534. [23:32:12] <kingryan> cool
  535. [23:32:30] * briansuda is on Dial-up, so please be patient
  536. [23:36:52] <briansuda> OK, what version of X2V are you using?
  537. [23:37:06] <kingryan> latest from hg
  538. [23:38:59] <briansuda> what is the error? because it seems to work for me?
  539. [23:39:31] * LTjake (n=brian@CPE0011506c8049-CM0013711405ec.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  540. [23:40:03] <kingryan> I have:
  541. [23:40:04] <kingryan> changeset: 42:12f6926962c2
  542. [23:40:04] <kingryan> tag: tip
  543. [23:40:04] <kingryan> parent: 41:2f8763a2bbca
  544. [23:40:04] <kingryan> parent: 38:77cef3da3046
  545. [23:40:07] <kingryan> user: unknown@t-lva-suda-co-uk.local
  546. [23:40:09] <kingryan> date: Mon Apr 24 10:20:09 2006 -0500
  547. [23:40:12] <kingryan> summary: merged with Ryan
  548. [23:41:44] <kingryan> you have the lastest version of the tests?
  549. [23:42:26] <briansuda> probably not... let me check
  550. [23:42:40] <kingryan> here's the error I get:
  551. [23:42:41] <kingryan> ~/microformats/tests ryan$ bin/test-xsltproc.pl hcard/35-include-pattern
  552. [23:42:41] <kingryan> FAIL hcard/35-include-pattern
  553. [23:42:41] <kingryan> 10,11d9
  554. [23:42:41] <kingryan> < FN;CHARSET=UTF-8:James Levine
  555. [23:42:43] <kingryan> < N;CHARSET=UTF-8:Levine;James;;;
  556. [23:43:03] <briansuda> oh, i was looking at test #5 not #35
  557. [23:43:15] <briansuda> reset, start again
  558. [23:43:19] <kingryan> and the web version doesn't work either: http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcard.php?uri=http://microformats.org/test/hcard/35-include-pattern.html
  559. [23:43:38] <kingryan> you know you can run just one test, right?
  560. [23:43:56] <kingryan> bin/test-xstlproc.pl hcard/35-include-pattern
  561. [23:44:36] <briansuda> yes
  562. [23:44:40] <kingryan> k
  563. [23:45:04] <briansuda> ok, i know what this is.
  564. [23:45:34] <kingryan> yeah?
  565. [23:45:35] <briansuda> this is an unresolved issue with the include pattern
  566. [23:46:19] <kingryan> what's the issue?
  567. [23:46:23] <briansuda> the IDREF, i was advocating that the CHILDREN of that be included, but in the test it is one the same element as class="fn" and NOT a child and therefore ignored
  568. [23:46:33] <kingryan> ah, gotcha
  569. [23:47:18] <briansuda> The easy fix in XSLT would then allow class="vcard fn ..." which we are avoiding.
  570. [23:47:38] <briansuda> i never got around to seeing there was another way, all these confernces got in the way
  571. [23:48:00] <briansuda> DanC, tantek and I all emailed about it, i'm not sure if it was on the list or not.
  572. [23:48:04] <kingryan> well, let's air the issue out and resolve it first
  573. [23:48:17] <kingryan> I don't think so
  574. [23:48:29] <kingryan> we should email the list and see if we can get consensus
  575. [23:49:25] <briansuda> i think it is on the mf-dev list
  576. [23:49:30] * briansuda looks for a link
  577. [23:50:06] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-dev/2006-April/000091.html
  578. [23:50:08] <kingryan> you're right, I found it
  579. [23:51:14] <briansuda> DanC's suggestion of changing .//* to descendant-or-self::* opens abit of a pandora's box
  580. [23:51:39] <kingryan> well, let's ignore x2v for the time being
  581. [23:51:51] <kingryan> 'cause its not always going to be the only parser
  582. [23:51:55] <kingryan> (and its already not)
  583. [23:57:46] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-issues]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-issues * RyanKing * (+122) added link to issues email
  584. [23:58:06] * bear is now known as bear_dinner

These logs were automatically created by mflogbot on chat.freenode.net using a modified version of the Java IRC LogBot.

See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.