IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:10:24] <tantek> heh, yeah, that's more like a pre-existing format
  2. [00:11:32] <bewest> well
  3. [00:11:36] <bewest> it's blurry :-)
  4. [00:17:31] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthebed
  5. [00:21:06] <drewinthebed> tantek - a search for 'superman returns' works well for me. all seems good.
  6. [00:23:11] <deanero> tantek: point taken
  7. [00:24:08] <deanero> isrcs are actually encoded in the audio in pre-mastering for all the major label stuff
  8. [00:37:21] <deanero> if i were to mark up an (musical) artists with hcard, would notes be an appropriate place to stash a bio or description?
  9. [00:46:31] <mfbot> [[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7082 * DeanEro * (+113) Artist pages - spin.com artist of the day
  10. [01:00:42] <mfbot> [[media-info-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7083 * DeanEro * (-111) Elements that come up often in practice - removed ISRC until there's better justification
  11. [01:00:58] <deanero> happy weekend
  12. [01:01:01] * deanero (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
  13. [01:07:52] <tantek> yes, notes would be appropriate for that
  14. [01:08:39] <tantek> remi, drew, thanks for the tests, glad to hear it's working
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  16. [01:12:14] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  40. [05:00:47] <jibot> xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
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  44. [06:26:28] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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  49. [06:50:09] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  53. [06:51:31] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  54. [06:52:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  68. [08:53:19] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  69. [09:33:09] * drewinthehead wonders if he's still connected
  70. [09:33:19] <drewinthehead> yay ... works from the garden :)
  71. [09:45:59] <drewinthehead> does it make sense to enclose a user review description in a <blockquote> ?
  72. [09:58:28] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7084 * ChristopheDucamp * (+259)
  73. [09:58:54] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7085 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
  74. [09:59:35] <mfbot> [[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7086 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) typo
  75. [10:02:21] <mfbot> [[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7087 * ChristopheDucamp * (+31) Schéma - entry-content (translation sync)
  76. [10:02:57] <mfbot> [[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7088 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Schéma - typo
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  78. [10:04:28] <mfbot> [[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7089 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18) exemples hatom to be translated form hatom-examples
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  82. [10:18:14] <mfbot> [[hatom-examples-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+20942) structure translated, to be cont'd
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  85. [10:23:31] <mfbot> [[hcard-examples-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7090 * ChristopheDucamp * (+625) MSN Messenger - synchro with original answer form User:Chucker
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  88. [10:32:04] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  89. [10:55:52] <mfbot> [[rel-design-pattern-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern-fr&diff=0&oldid=7091 * ChristopheDucamp * (+47) typo
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  91. [10:57:48] <mfbot> [[rel-bookmark-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-bookmark-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+48) #REDIRECT [[rel-design-pattern-fr#rel-bookmark]]
  92. [10:59:14] <mfbot> [[rel-bookmark-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-bookmark-fr&diff=0&oldid=7092 * ChristopheDucamp * (-13) #REDIRECT [[rel-design-pattern-fr]]
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  96. [13:57:18] <davecardwell> tantek: if http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info is in effect, would it not make sense for parsers to treat values like the tel and adr as type: work?
  97. [13:57:32] <davecardwell> without having to define them explicitly
  98. [13:58:08] <davecardwell> that would save having to do things like "<span class="type">Work</span> Tel", when just "Tel" would probably suffice
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  101. [14:20:07] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  104. [15:20:58] <jibot> xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
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  108. [16:11:54] <mfbot> [[adr-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+8888) [fr: structure translated ]
  109. [16:15:20] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+16236) [fr: structure translated]
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  111. [16:27:07] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  112. [16:32:34] <drewinthehead> afternoon phnChris
  113. [16:33:13] <tantek> hello drew and chris
  114. [16:33:27] <tantek> drew, yes, blockquote makes sense for a review by someone else on your site
  115. [16:33:34] <pnhChris> heya all
  116. [16:33:36] <tantek> for the description that is
  117. [16:33:42] <drewinthehead> hey tantek ... thanks, settled on the conclusion too
  118. [16:33:50] <tantek> i believe the hReview creator creates a blockquote for the description
  119. [16:34:31] <drewinthehead> you're right, it does.
  120. [16:34:59] * drewinthehead is skilfully avoiding the England v Portugal soccer match by hiding behind his computer
  121. [16:35:51] <tantek> heh
  122. [16:36:16] <tantek> i know some folks here who got up and went to the bar at 8am (PDT) to watch that
  123. [16:37:12] <drewinthehead> kickoff time was 4pm local for us, so we took the opportunity to go to the supermarket while the roads were quiet ;)
  124. [16:45:16] <drewinthehead> which prompts the question ... would a sports report be an hReview of an event?
  125. [16:45:27] <drewinthehead> reports aren't really reviews, are they
  126. [16:46:01] <tantek> they kind of are actually
  127. [16:46:17] <tantek> certainly that would make sense
  128. [16:48:54] <drewinthehead> a review implies that the subject matter is subjective
  129. [16:49:02] <tantek> does it?
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  131. [16:49:49] <drewinthehead> i think it does ... if we're using the 'critical review' definition of the word
  132. [16:50:45] <drewinthehead> the rating implies subjectiveness, also
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  134. [16:51:51] <drewinthehead> a sports report is an account of fact, in the same way a traffic report or news report is
  135. [16:52:13] <drewinthehead> you wouldn't report on a road traffic accident and give it a rating 4/5 :)
  136. [16:54:33] <pnhChris> why not? :P
  137. [16:54:45] <drewinthehead> there's always one ;)
  138. [16:55:16] <drewinthehead> "I rate this accident 4 out of a possible 5 stars. There should be more like these."
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  140. [16:59:06] <drewinthehead> perhaps this is a use-case for hReview, but I do wonder if the difference between a review and a report is enough to render hReview semantically inappropriate
  141. [17:00:22] <tantek> reports / summaries are nearly always subjective though, so I think the semantics work, even if you require subjectiveness
  142. [17:00:45] <tantek> perhaps the only exception might be a scientific report of the results of an experiment where only the measured facts are reported
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  144. [17:00:59] <tantek> or perhaps a sports summary where only the score and other statistics are reported
  145. [17:01:34] <tantek> that might make sense as a different microformat, some sort of "game result" microformat
  146. [17:03:05] <pnhChris_> ... if you can resolve differences between sports and conventions for presenting scores / records used
  147. [17:03:31] <tantek> rather, if you can document any common publishing patterns for publishing such things
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  149. [17:04:34] <tantek> after a simple game result microformat is figured out, then you might attempt a longer game actions microformat which could represent say, all the moves in a chess game along with times on the chess clocks, or all the innings/runs/outs/strikes etc. in a baseball game
  150. [17:04:50] <tantek> there is no shortage of data for either of those
  151. [17:05:19] <tantek> but, getting back to drew's question, as long as it is a POV prose description, I think it qualifies as a review
  152. [17:06:40] <drewinthehead> so you might say that it's appropriate for CNN.com to mark up each news story as an hReview?
  153. [17:07:03] <tantek> as long as there is an *item* being reviewed
  154. [17:07:30] <tantek> in your example of a sports report, the item is the sporting event
  155. [17:07:44] <drewinthehead> or a car bomb
  156. [17:08:33] <tantek> that would certainly be pretty creepy to see such things marked up as hCalendar events
  157. [17:09:04] <drewinthehead> perhaps i'm letting the creepy influence my grasp on the semantics
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  165. [17:30:24] <mfbot> [[adr-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-fr&diff=0&oldid=7093 * ChristopheDucamp * (+195) Format - translation to be reviewed
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  174. [17:48:31] <jibot> Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
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  186. [18:29:14] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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  191. [19:04:38] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=7094 * ChristopheDucamp * (+341) fr : structure translated
  192. [19:12:59] <mfbot> [[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=7095 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
  193. [19:21:08] * drewinthehead is still kicking the tyres of hReview
  194. [19:25:06] <drewinthehead> i keep coming back to this problem of not being able to generate a valid hCard without explicitly asking the user for the component parts of their name
  195. [19:28:35] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC8275E4.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  196. [19:28:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  197. [19:28:35] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  198. [19:34:54] * bookwyrm (n=matt@user-11fa488.dsl.mindspring.com) Quit ()
  199. [19:45:53] * tantek (n=tantek@c-24-6-174-147.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  200. [19:45:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  201. [19:46:34] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  202. [19:54:59] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  203. [19:55:00] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  204. [20:03:46] <drewinthehead> am I correct in saying an hReview has 3 possible scenarios for authorship - 1: an author vcard, 2: an anonymous author, 3: the author of the page ?
  205. [20:06:00] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@70-59-79-117.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  206. [20:06:44] <drewinthehead> for the reviews i'm publishing, only the first of those is acceptable to me - the author/reviewer hCard, but I can't form a valid hCard because my name data is all in one field
  207. [20:08:10] <drewinthehead> and as the hCard is MUSTed by the hReview spec, no hCard means no hReview, which means my data dies
  208. [20:08:34] <tantek> not quite
  209. [20:08:54] <tantek> if you specify a reviewer, THEN you MUST use an hCard for the reviewer
  210. [20:08:56] <tantek> make sense?
  211. [20:09:19] <drewinthehead> yes, but I have a reviewer
  212. [20:09:31] <tantek> and you are unable to make an hCard for him/her?
  213. [20:09:52] <tantek> do you have a reviewer name? or just a nickname?
  214. [20:10:02] <drewinthehead> i'm unable to do so with certainty
  215. [20:10:09] <tantek> and do you have a URL to a page for the reviewer?
  216. [20:10:13] <drewinthehead> it's a name "as they wish it to appear"
  217. [20:10:24] <drewinthehead> one field, could contain anything
  218. [20:10:41] <tantek> yes, this is a larger challenge than just hReview
  219. [20:10:49] <tantek> it's a UI problem
  220. [20:11:22] <tantek> or rather, it's an impedance mismatch between typical user interfaces which provide only a single "name" field, and the structure of vCard/hCard names
  221. [20:11:41] <drewinthehead> yes. and it's very very common.
  222. [20:11:57] <tantek> I've been wondering if look-up tables could be used to solve this
  223. [20:12:07] <tantek> in cases where the person enters more than two words
  224. [20:12:16] <tantek> I bet the 90% case is either just first name or first + last
  225. [20:12:24] <tantek> which can be FN'd just fine
  226. [20:12:43] <tantek> but if the person enters *three* words then I think you have to start applying some heuristics
  227. [20:13:02] <tantek> *three or more words* that is
  228. [20:13:09] <tantek> perhaps consider the following algorithm:
  229. [20:13:20] <tantek> or rather, grammar
  230. [20:13:22] <tantek> given-name additional-name(s) family-name
  231. [20:13:33] <tantek> I bet that would solve 99% of those cases as well
  232. [20:13:46] <tantek> and then you simply include a look-up table for the exceptions you know about
  233. [20:13:52] <tantek> e.g. Thomas Vander Wal
  234. [20:14:08] <tantek> that ought to work
  235. [20:15:07] <drewinthehead> should the fail case result in no hCard or an invalid hCard?
  236. [20:15:17] <tantek> what fail case?
  237. [20:15:27] <tantek> I thought I handled all cases in the above algorithm
  238. [20:15:51] <drewinthehead> sorry, yes you did.
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  240. [20:16:20] <drewinthehead> hmm
  241. [20:18:25] <drewinthehead> i guess a valid hCard with potentially mis-categorised best-guess names is better than no hCard or a broken hCard
  242. [20:18:39] <tantek> right
  243. [20:18:59] <tantek> and if the user doesn't like it, they can enter less data and get an hCard that probably works better
  244. [20:19:15] <tantek> in practice I don't see that many cases of miscategorized additional-name(s) occuring
  245. [20:19:21] <drewinthehead> "if you don't like it, get a proper name!" ;)
  246. [20:19:35] <tantek> I could also imagine a slight evolution / iteration of user interfaces
  247. [20:19:42] <tantek> for entering names
  248. [20:20:02] <tantek> with one field that would then auto-indicate which word it is treating as part of the name
  249. [20:20:03] <drewinthehead> sure, that's ultimately the best solution
  250. [20:20:07] <tantek> which you could edit if you wanted to
  251. [20:20:07] * briansuda wonders if we are thinking too european centric...
  252. [20:20:24] <tantek> no imaginary problems here
  253. [20:20:40] <tantek> if there is a specific real world problem, then let's hear it
  254. [20:20:52] <tantek> and besides, this is for an *implementation*
  255. [20:21:02] <tantek> I'm not suggesting the above heuristic for the spec itself
  256. [20:24:02] * bookwyrm (n=matt@user-11fa488.dsl.mindspring.com) has joined #microformats
  257. [20:28:47] <drewinthehead> candidate for hcard-faq?
  258. [20:30:40] <tantek> not sure drew
  259. [20:30:58] <tantek> i think this is the kind of thing that implementations should experiment with
  260. [20:31:04] <tantek> rather than have any definitive answer
  261. [20:31:10] <tantek> maybe hcard-brainstorming
  262. [20:33:08] <drewinthehead> it certainly needs some real-world hashing out before we have an answer, but the page is frequently asked questions, not frequently given answers
  263. [20:33:33] <drewinthehead> the question is coming up in my own work frequently
  264. [20:35:10] <drewinthehead> that aside, I'll summarise to hcard-brainstorming
  265. [20:37:39] <tantek> thanks drew!
  266. [20:38:07] <tantek> it would be ok to add an entry to hcard-faq which simply said this is unresolved, and linked to "some ideas on the brainstorming page"
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  268. [20:48:10] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  272. [21:11:43] <mfbot> [[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7096 * DrewMcLellan * (+993) Other Implementations/Ideas -
  273. [21:13:45] <drewinthehead> not perfect, I know. but documented in some way. :)
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  283. [22:08:03] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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  291. [23:14:09] <jibot> Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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