IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:10:24] <tantek>
heh, yeah, that's more like a pre-existing format
- [00:11:32] <bewest>
well
- [00:11:36] <bewest>
it's blurry :-)
- [00:17:31] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewinthebed
- [00:21:06] <drewinthebed>
tantek - a search for 'superman returns' works well for me. all seems good.
- [00:23:11] <deanero>
tantek: point taken
- [00:24:08] <deanero>
isrcs are actually encoded in the audio in pre-mastering for all the major label stuff
- [00:37:21] <deanero>
if i were to mark up an (musical) artists with hcard, would notes be an appropriate place to stash a bio or description?
- [00:46:31] <mfbot>
[[music-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=music-examples&diff=0&oldid=7082 * DeanEro * (+113) Artist pages - spin.com artist of the day
- [01:00:42] <mfbot>
[[media-info-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7083 * DeanEro * (-111) Elements that come up often in practice - removed ISRC until there's better justification
- [01:00:58] <deanero>
happy weekend
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- [01:07:52] <tantek>
yes, notes would be appropriate for that
- [01:08:39] <tantek>
remi, drew, thanks for the tests, glad to hear it's working
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- [01:12:14] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [05:00:47] <jibot>
xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
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- [06:26:28] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [06:50:09] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [06:51:31] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [08:53:19] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [09:33:09] * drewinthehead wonders if he's still connected
- [09:33:19] <drewinthehead>
yay ... works from the garden :)
- [09:45:59] <drewinthehead>
does it make sense to enclose a user review description in a <blockquote> ?
- [09:58:28] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7084 * ChristopheDucamp * (+259)
- [09:58:54] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7085 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
- [09:59:35] <mfbot>
[[hcard-singular-properties-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-singular-properties-fr&diff=0&oldid=7086 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) typo
- [10:02:21] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7087 * ChristopheDucamp * (+31) Schéma - entry-content (translation sync)
- [10:02:57] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7088 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1) Schéma - typo
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- [10:04:28] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7089 * ChristopheDucamp * (+18) exemples hatom to be translated form hatom-examples
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- [10:18:14] <mfbot>
[[hatom-examples-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+20942) structure translated, to be cont'd
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- [10:23:31] <mfbot>
[[hcard-examples-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7090 * ChristopheDucamp * (+625) MSN Messenger - synchro with original answer form User:Chucker
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- [10:32:04] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [10:55:52] <mfbot>
[[rel-design-pattern-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-design-pattern-fr&diff=0&oldid=7091 * ChristopheDucamp * (+47) typo
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- [10:57:48] <mfbot>
[[rel-bookmark-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-bookmark-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+48) #REDIRECT [[rel-design-pattern-fr#rel-bookmark]]
- [10:59:14] <mfbot>
[[rel-bookmark-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=rel-bookmark-fr&diff=0&oldid=7092 * ChristopheDucamp * (-13) #REDIRECT [[rel-design-pattern-fr]]
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- [13:57:18] <davecardwell>
tantek: if http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info is in effect, would it not make sense for parsers to treat values like the tel and adr as type: work?
- [13:57:32] <davecardwell>
without having to define them explicitly
- [13:58:08] <davecardwell>
that would save having to do things like "<span class="type">Work</span> Tel", when just "Tel" would probably suffice
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- [14:20:07] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [15:20:58] <jibot>
xtof is Christophe Ducamp you could find me on http://www.communitywiki.org/odd/Xtof/HomePage
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- [16:11:54] <mfbot>
[[adr-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/adr-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+8888) [fr: structure translated ]
- [16:15:20] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-issues-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+16236) [fr: structure translated]
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- [16:27:07] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [16:32:34] <drewinthehead>
afternoon phnChris
- [16:33:13] <tantek>
hello drew and chris
- [16:33:27] <tantek>
drew, yes, blockquote makes sense for a review by someone else on your site
- [16:33:34] <pnhChris>
heya all
- [16:33:36] <tantek>
for the description that is
- [16:33:42] <drewinthehead>
hey tantek ... thanks, settled on the conclusion too
- [16:33:50] <tantek>
i believe the hReview creator creates a blockquote for the description
- [16:34:31] <drewinthehead>
you're right, it does.
- [16:34:59] * drewinthehead is skilfully avoiding the England v Portugal soccer match by hiding behind his computer
- [16:35:51] <tantek>
heh
- [16:36:16] <tantek>
i know some folks here who got up and went to the bar at 8am (PDT) to watch that
- [16:37:12] <drewinthehead>
kickoff time was 4pm local for us, so we took the opportunity to go to the supermarket while the roads were quiet ;)
- [16:45:16] <drewinthehead>
which prompts the question ... would a sports report be an hReview of an event?
- [16:45:27] <drewinthehead>
reports aren't really reviews, are they
- [16:46:01] <tantek>
they kind of are actually
- [16:46:17] <tantek>
certainly that would make sense
- [16:48:54] <drewinthehead>
a review implies that the subject matter is subjective
- [16:49:02] <tantek>
does it?
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- [16:49:49] <drewinthehead>
i think it does ... if we're using the 'critical review' definition of the word
- [16:50:45] <drewinthehead>
the rating implies subjectiveness, also
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- [16:51:51] <drewinthehead>
a sports report is an account of fact, in the same way a traffic report or news report is
- [16:52:13] <drewinthehead>
you wouldn't report on a road traffic accident and give it a rating 4/5 :)
- [16:54:33] <pnhChris>
why not? :P
- [16:54:45] <drewinthehead>
there's always one ;)
- [16:55:16] <drewinthehead>
"I rate this accident 4 out of a possible 5 stars. There should be more like these."
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- [16:59:06] <drewinthehead>
perhaps this is a use-case for hReview, but I do wonder if the difference between a review and a report is enough to render hReview semantically inappropriate
- [17:00:22] <tantek>
reports / summaries are nearly always subjective though, so I think the semantics work, even if you require subjectiveness
- [17:00:45] <tantek>
perhaps the only exception might be a scientific report of the results of an experiment where only the measured facts are reported
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- [17:00:59] <tantek>
or perhaps a sports summary where only the score and other statistics are reported
- [17:01:34] <tantek>
that might make sense as a different microformat, some sort of "game result" microformat
- [17:03:05] <pnhChris_>
... if you can resolve differences between sports and conventions for presenting scores / records used
- [17:03:31] <tantek>
rather, if you can document any common publishing patterns for publishing such things
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- [17:04:34] <tantek>
after a simple game result microformat is figured out, then you might attempt a longer game actions microformat which could represent say, all the moves in a chess game along with times on the chess clocks, or all the innings/runs/outs/strikes etc. in a baseball game
- [17:04:50] <tantek>
there is no shortage of data for either of those
- [17:05:19] <tantek>
but, getting back to drew's question, as long as it is a POV prose description, I think it qualifies as a review
- [17:06:40] <drewinthehead>
so you might say that it's appropriate for CNN.com to mark up each news story as an hReview?
- [17:07:03] <tantek>
as long as there is an *item* being reviewed
- [17:07:30] <tantek>
in your example of a sports report, the item is the sporting event
- [17:07:44] <drewinthehead>
or a car bomb
- [17:08:33] <tantek>
that would certainly be pretty creepy to see such things marked up as hCalendar events
- [17:09:04] <drewinthehead>
perhaps i'm letting the creepy influence my grasp on the semantics
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- [17:30:24] <mfbot>
[[adr-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=adr-fr&diff=0&oldid=7093 * ChristopheDucamp * (+195) Format - translation to be reviewed
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- [17:48:31] <jibot>
Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
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- [18:29:14] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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- [19:04:38] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=7094 * ChristopheDucamp * (+341) fr : structure translated
- [19:12:59] <mfbot>
[[hcard-issues-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-issues-fr&diff=0&oldid=7095 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) typo
- [19:21:08] * drewinthehead is still kicking the tyres of hReview
- [19:25:06] <drewinthehead>
i keep coming back to this problem of not being able to generate a valid hCard without explicitly asking the user for the component parts of their name
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- [19:28:35] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
- [20:03:46] <drewinthehead>
am I correct in saying an hReview has 3 possible scenarios for authorship - 1: an author vcard, 2: an anonymous author, 3: the author of the page ?
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- [20:06:44] <drewinthehead>
for the reviews i'm publishing, only the first of those is acceptable to me - the author/reviewer hCard, but I can't form a valid hCard because my name data is all in one field
- [20:08:10] <drewinthehead>
and as the hCard is MUSTed by the hReview spec, no hCard means no hReview, which means my data dies
- [20:08:34] <tantek>
not quite
- [20:08:54] <tantek>
if you specify a reviewer, THEN you MUST use an hCard for the reviewer
- [20:08:56] <tantek>
make sense?
- [20:09:19] <drewinthehead>
yes, but I have a reviewer
- [20:09:31] <tantek>
and you are unable to make an hCard for him/her?
- [20:09:52] <tantek>
do you have a reviewer name? or just a nickname?
- [20:10:02] <drewinthehead>
i'm unable to do so with certainty
- [20:10:09] <tantek>
and do you have a URL to a page for the reviewer?
- [20:10:13] <drewinthehead>
it's a name "as they wish it to appear"
- [20:10:24] <drewinthehead>
one field, could contain anything
- [20:10:41] <tantek>
yes, this is a larger challenge than just hReview
- [20:10:49] <tantek>
it's a UI problem
- [20:11:22] <tantek>
or rather, it's an impedance mismatch between typical user interfaces which provide only a single "name" field, and the structure of vCard/hCard names
- [20:11:41] <drewinthehead>
yes. and it's very very common.
- [20:11:57] <tantek>
I've been wondering if look-up tables could be used to solve this
- [20:12:07] <tantek>
in cases where the person enters more than two words
- [20:12:16] <tantek>
I bet the 90% case is either just first name or first + last
- [20:12:24] <tantek>
which can be FN'd just fine
- [20:12:43] <tantek>
but if the person enters *three* words then I think you have to start applying some heuristics
- [20:13:02] <tantek>
*three or more words* that is
- [20:13:09] <tantek>
perhaps consider the following algorithm:
- [20:13:20] <tantek>
or rather, grammar
- [20:13:22] <tantek>
given-name additional-name(s) family-name
- [20:13:33] <tantek>
I bet that would solve 99% of those cases as well
- [20:13:46] <tantek>
and then you simply include a look-up table for the exceptions you know about
- [20:13:52] <tantek>
e.g. Thomas Vander Wal
- [20:14:08] <tantek>
that ought to work
- [20:15:07] <drewinthehead>
should the fail case result in no hCard or an invalid hCard?
- [20:15:17] <tantek>
what fail case?
- [20:15:27] <tantek>
I thought I handled all cases in the above algorithm
- [20:15:51] <drewinthehead>
sorry, yes you did.
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- [20:16:20] <drewinthehead>
hmm
- [20:18:25] <drewinthehead>
i guess a valid hCard with potentially mis-categorised best-guess names is better than no hCard or a broken hCard
- [20:18:39] <tantek>
right
- [20:18:59] <tantek>
and if the user doesn't like it, they can enter less data and get an hCard that probably works better
- [20:19:15] <tantek>
in practice I don't see that many cases of miscategorized additional-name(s) occuring
- [20:19:21] <drewinthehead>
"if you don't like it, get a proper name!" ;)
- [20:19:35] <tantek>
I could also imagine a slight evolution / iteration of user interfaces
- [20:19:42] <tantek>
for entering names
- [20:20:02] <tantek>
with one field that would then auto-indicate which word it is treating as part of the name
- [20:20:03] <drewinthehead>
sure, that's ultimately the best solution
- [20:20:07] <tantek>
which you could edit if you wanted to
- [20:20:07] * briansuda wonders if we are thinking too european centric...
- [20:20:24] <tantek>
no imaginary problems here
- [20:20:40] <tantek>
if there is a specific real world problem, then let's hear it
- [20:20:52] <tantek>
and besides, this is for an *implementation*
- [20:21:02] <tantek>
I'm not suggesting the above heuristic for the spec itself
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- [20:28:47] <drewinthehead>
candidate for hcard-faq?
- [20:30:40] <tantek>
not sure drew
- [20:30:58] <tantek>
i think this is the kind of thing that implementations should experiment with
- [20:31:04] <tantek>
rather than have any definitive answer
- [20:31:10] <tantek>
maybe hcard-brainstorming
- [20:33:08] <drewinthehead>
it certainly needs some real-world hashing out before we have an answer, but the page is frequently asked questions, not frequently given answers
- [20:33:33] <drewinthehead>
the question is coming up in my own work frequently
- [20:35:10] <drewinthehead>
that aside, I'll summarise to hcard-brainstorming
- [20:37:39] <tantek>
thanks drew!
- [20:38:07] <tantek>
it would be ok to add an entry to hcard-faq which simply said this is unresolved, and linked to "some ideas on the brainstorming page"
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- [20:48:10] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [21:11:43] <mfbot>
[[hcard-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7096 * DrewMcLellan * (+993) Other Implementations/Ideas -
- [21:13:45] <drewinthehead>
not perfect, I know. but documented in some way. :)
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edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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Remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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