IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:09:49] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  2. [00:13:37] <lgonze> looking for examples at the major music sites, but their markup is too godawful. there's not going to be wisdom found here.
  3. [00:15:49] <KevinMarks> still worth linking them to critique
  4. [00:18:17] <lgonze> nothing to critique, I'm afraid. at least so far I haven't found any markup which contains semantics. I'm seeing things like <td class="cell"> ...
  5. [00:19:09] <KevinMarks> well, the mf way is to consider how they could change
  6. [00:19:14] <KevinMarks> do they use links?
  7. [00:19:23] <KevinMarks> if so we can suggest additions
  8. [00:20:11] <lgonze> ok. what would you do with this: <td class="text2boldblue"><b>Gnarls Barkley</b></td> (from walmart)
  9. [00:25:51] <KevinMarks> add a class="artist" I suppose
  10. [00:26:05] <KevinMarks> or whatever we choose as a schemaname for that
  11. [00:26:33] <KevinMarks> gtg
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  45. [06:12:40] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7589 * ChristopheDucamp * (+65) Hors Champ - typo
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  48. [06:18:31] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7590 * ChristopheDucamp * (+77) Métadonnée Item - translation in progress
  49. [06:27:22] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7591 * ChristopheDucamp * (+233) Contenu -
  50. [06:34:04] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7592 * ChristopheDucamp * (+143) Problématiques croisées - translation in progress
  51. [06:34:25] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7593 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Problématiques croisées -
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  53. [06:40:26] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7594 * ChristopheDucamp * (+116) Contextual Defaults: A New Approach? -
  54. [06:42:47] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7595 * ChristopheDucamp * (+28) Exemples (Préliminaire) -
  55. [06:43:18] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal-fr&diff=0&oldid=7596 * ChristopheDucamp * (+21) Discussions -
  56. [06:58:09] <mfbot> [[hreview-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+15267) [fr: this page will be translated later - localization of links]
  57. [07:12:51] <mfbot> [[hreview-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-fr&diff=0&oldid=7597 * ChristopheDucamp * (+206) [fr: this page needs to be reviewed + french exampes to localize]
  58. [07:15:22] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=7598 * ChristopheDucamp * (+15) Voir aussi - add -fr suffix
  59. [07:16:43] <mfbot> [[hreview-faq-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-faq-fr&diff=0&oldid=7599 * ChristopheDucamp * (+24) Q&R - typo
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  61. [07:34:49] <mfbot> [[hreview-issues-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-issues-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4697) [fr: translation]
  62. [07:54:16] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/review-brainstorming-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+4032) [fr:translation ]
  63. [07:59:17] <mfbot> [[reviews-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=reviews-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7600 * ChristopheDucamp * (+53) Formats de Critiques Actuels - typo
  64. [08:03:58] <mfbot> [[review-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7601 * ChristopheDucamp * (+159) [fr: typo]
  65. [08:15:06] * dbaron (n=dbaron@c-24-6-67-73.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("g'night")
  66. [08:16:54] <mfbot> [[book-info-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/book-info-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3496) [fr: translation]
  67. [08:17:46] <mfbot> [[review-formats-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7602 * ChristopheDucamp * (+34) Livres - book-info-examples-fr
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  70. [08:25:52] <mfbot> [[attention-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+792) [fr: index translated]
  71. [08:26:08] <mfbot> [[attention-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=attention-fr&diff=0&oldid=7603 * ChristopheDucamp * (+5) Attention -
  72. [08:34:59] <mfbot> [[attention-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1681) [fr: translated]
  73. [08:38:50] <mfbot> [[attention-formats-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/attention-formats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1489) [fr: translated]
  74. [08:42:01] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
  75. [08:42:06] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  79. [09:12:42] <Whiskey_M> is there a common set of rules over the common types with microformats, or are they defined within each microformats documentation?
  80. [09:15:47] <mfbot> [[attention-brainstorming-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/attention-brainstorming-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3023) [fr:translated]
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  84. [09:21:08] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=include-pattern-fr&diff=0&oldid=7604 * ChristopheDucamp * (+52) typo
  85. [09:22:58] <drewinthehead> there are some common rules, Whiskey_M
  86. [09:23:48] <Whiskey_M> is there a list on the wiki that I missed? I saw the rules about how to propose microformats etc., but not the construction rules
  87. [09:24:22] <drewinthehead> perhaps rules is too strong a word
  88. [09:24:26] <drewinthehead> there are patterns
  89. [09:24:46] <drewinthehead> and conventions
  90. [09:25:35] <Whiskey_M> yeah... I'm still playing with this hcard.xsd thing and seeing where I could go with it
  91. [09:25:57] <drewinthehead> most conventions relate to use of elements like <address> and <abbr>
  92. [09:27:28] <drewinthehead> but there's no set of hard-and-fast technical rules for every microformat, as far as i'm aware
  93. [09:28:40] <Whiskey_M> which is both a good thing and in part a bad thing
  94. [09:31:20] <drewinthehead> the bad bits are swept up amongst the process, i believe
  95. [09:31:56] <Whiskey_M> I guess the trick is to keep the rules loose enough to allow adoption by non-techheads, but have enough in there to allow techheads to work with them
  96. [09:32:51] <drewinthehead> everything is scrutinised heavily enough during the design process
  97. [09:33:16] <Whiskey_M> I wasn't doubting that
  98. [09:33:46] <drewinthehead> i think that's more important than a rule book at this early stage :)
  99. [09:35:24] <Whiskey_M> yeah, I'm just playing around with routes to making microformats easily machine readable. After all (and I may have missed the plot here), what's the point of a semantic standard when the semantics can't logically be picked out through rules
  100. [09:35:38] <Whiskey_M> off for cig
  101. [09:36:09] <drewinthehead> i'm off into town ... back around lunch time
  102. [09:43:00] <mfbot> [[resume-brainstorming-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/resume-brainstorming-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+18605) [fr: structure translated - to be continued]
  103. [09:45:06] <mfbot> [[process-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=process-fr&diff=0&oldid=7605 * ChristopheDucamp * (-55) Patterns -
  104. [09:51:32] <mfbot> [[hresume-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-fr&diff=0&oldid=7606 * ChristopheDucamp * (-7) [fr: typo]
  105. [09:59:43] <mfbot> [[Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2006-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:MicroFormatCopyrightStatement2006-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+84)
  106. [10:13:14] <mfbot> [[hresume-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hresume-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3965) [fr:translation]
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  108. [10:16:01] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=7607 * ChristopheDucamp * (+9) Design Patterns -
  109. [10:31:17] <mfbot> [[include-pattern-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1867)
  110. [10:45:18] <mfbot> [[blog-description-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-description-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3209) [fr:translated]
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  112. [10:51:59] <mfbot> [[blog-description-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-description-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7608 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Contributeurs -
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  115. [11:00:06] <trovster> <dd class="published"><abbr title="2006-07-22" class="dstart">Hammer time</abbr></dd> ??
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  119. [11:02:00] <Whiskey_M> ?
  120. [11:03:16] <mfbot> [[blog-info-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-info-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+3327)
  121. [11:08:07] <mfbot> [[blog-description-formats-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-description-formats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+501)
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  123. [11:14:53] <mfbot> [[blog-description-format-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-description-format-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+823)
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  125. [11:25:04] <mfbot> [[xmdp-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7609 * Richard Conyard * (+1432) XMDP XML Schema -
  126. [11:25:18] <Whiskey_M> any comments on that welcome
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  130. [11:49:21] <mfbot> [[blog-post-examples-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+20740) [fr: first draft translation to be reviewed seriously - + add french examples]
  131. [11:58:12] <mfbot> [[blog-post-formats-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/blog-post-formats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+29936) [translation to be continued]
  132. [12:16:49] <mfbot> [[blog-post-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7610 * ChristopheDucamp * (+397) [fr: translation to be continued]
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  135. [12:30:48] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  136. [12:57:53] * jibot (i=jibot@rdns.97.161.62.64.fre.communitycolo.net) has joined #microformats
  137. [12:58:20] <trovster> Can you have more than one 'role' ?
  138. [13:02:40] <trovster> Anything I can use to mark-up presentations / speakers.... vcard, topic, description?
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  141. [13:37:02] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7611 * Richard Conyard * (+45) People on irc -
  142. [13:38:33] <mfbot> [[User:Richard Conyard]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/User:Richard_Conyard * Richard Conyard * (+159)
  143. [13:39:14] <mfbot> [[User:Richard Conyard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Richard_Conyard&diff=0&oldid=7612 * Richard Conyard * (+39)
  144. [13:39:55] <mfbot> [[User:Richard Conyard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:Richard_Conyard&diff=0&oldid=7613 * Richard Conyard * (+2)
  145. [13:40:26] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7614 * Heretic * (+31) Participants -
  146. [13:47:31] * trovster_ (n=trovster@host81-158-209-205.range81-158.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  147. [13:52:25] <Whiskey_M> wb trovster
  148. [14:03:03] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7615 * Heretic * (+2071) Brainstorming -
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  150. [14:06:59] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7616 * Heretic * (+26) Existing Practices -
  151. [14:07:32] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69D82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  152. [14:07:32] <jibot> amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
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  155. [14:12:59] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  156. [14:12:59] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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  158. [14:16:11] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
  159. [14:16:50] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7617 * Heretic * (+483) The Problem -
  160. [14:26:11] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7618 * Heretic * (+606) The Problem -
  161. [14:34:33] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7619 * Heretic * (+486) Firefox Extension -
  162. [14:37:54] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7620 * Heretic * (+49) The Problem -
  163. [14:39:20] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7621 * Heretic * (+201) Ben Buchanan -
  164. [14:41:26] <mfbot> [[currency-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples&diff=0&oldid=7622 * Heretic * (+0) Ben Buchanan -
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  167. [14:45:11] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  168. [14:48:49] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  169. [14:48:49] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  170. [14:55:11] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  171. [14:56:41] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69D82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit ("keep havin' fun")
  172. [15:19:09] * imajes_ (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  173. [15:32:10] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@cackhanded.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  174. [15:44:27] * Jonna1 is now known as jonnay
  175. [16:09:43] * imajes_ (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  176. [16:10:55] <mn_francis> ?def mn_francis
  177. [16:10:55] <jibot> Nobody has defined mn_francis yet
  178. [16:11:33] <mn_francis> ?def mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
  179. [16:11:33] <jibot> mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
  180. [16:18:30] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@cackhanded.plus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  181. [16:18:32] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69D82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  182. [16:18:33] <jibot> amette is http://alexander-mette.de and a TikiWiki developer
  183. [16:19:31] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@cackhanded.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  184. [16:39:01] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  185. [16:39:01] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  186. [16:46:58] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  187. [16:47:04] <Phae> Evening.
  188. [16:48:13] <Phae> drewinthehead: Luke got back to me and said my hAtom is correct. It was his server having the hiccups.
  189. [16:49:06] <trovster> Oh! hey Phae :)
  190. [16:49:19] <Phae> heh
  191. [16:49:20] <Phae> Hello.
  192. [16:49:45] <Phae> I'm just catching up. I've been on a train for 5 hours. :(
  193. [16:52:57] <Phae> oh man
  194. [16:53:00] <csarven> ?def csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  195. [16:53:01] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca and Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  196. [16:53:18] <csarven> ah.. why is that double
  197. [16:53:24] * bretonslivka (n=bretonsl@c-67-190-186-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  198. [16:53:27] <Phae> My gmail accounts are driving me mad. I think I just replied to you from the wrong address, trovster
  199. [16:53:49] <trovster> csarven: You need to make it forget, I did that :)
  200. [16:54:11] <trovster> Phae: Just replied? I ain't got no email, waiting on something else someone has sent me too.
  201. [16:54:30] <bretonslivka> I just had an interesting idea, and I thought I'd throw it out there to see what anyone thought.
  202. [16:54:31] <Phae> nm
  203. [16:54:38] <Phae> It wasn't important. Just commenting on hAtom
  204. [16:55:37] <csarven> ?forget csarven is Sarven Capadisli can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  205. [16:55:37] <jibot> I now only know that csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  206. [16:55:46] <csarven> okie thanks
  207. [16:56:14] <bretonslivka> What if this widget microformat were developed to a usable state. Then the microformat creators could be written in the widget format.
  208. [16:56:30] <bretonslivka> Then suppose that every major cms/blog had a plugin infrastructure
  209. [16:56:56] <bretonslivka> which accepted microformatted widgets
  210. [16:57:22] <bretonslivka> Then you'd have an easy way to deploy new microformats across all the major blogs..
  211. [16:57:28] <bretonslivka> without a lot of redundant effort
  212. [16:58:41] <trovster> Phae: btw, that's the group email, and not mine :) You can get mine from the information in the admin area
  213. [16:59:36] <mfbot> [[blog-post-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7623 * ChristopheDucamp * (+150) TypePad -
  214. [17:00:52] * imajes_ (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  215. [17:01:24] <Phae> Alright.
  216. [17:01:57] <Phae> Anyway, I gotta shoot. Just arrived at my parents to visit for the week, and the first thing I've done is log on :/ Catch ya later tonight.
  217. [17:01:57] <mfbot> [[picoformats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=picoformats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7624 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
  218. [17:02:04] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  219. [17:06:15] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-137-126-192.range86-137.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  220. [17:25:43] <bretonslivka> Hrmn the widget microformat raises a question
  221. [17:25:51] <bretonslivka> is it possible for a corporation to own a microformat?
  222. [17:28:13] * imajes_ (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  223. [17:31:42] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  224. [17:35:14] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit ("Want lisppaste4 in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net.")
  225. [17:35:34] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  226. [17:36:29] <bretonslivka> I can see corporate copyrighted microformats presenting a number of problems if this is so
  227. [17:37:01] <drewinthehead> bretonslivka: there's licensing information on the wiki .. let be see if i can find it
  228. [17:40:42] <pnhChris> ignoring the issues that arise in talking about owning a markup construct/pattern I can't imagine a scenario where anything coporately controlled could become an "official" microformat
  229. [17:41:17] <pnhChris> microformat-like... or otherwise having a corporation define a markup pattern that they leverage sure
  230. [17:42:25] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  231. [17:43:21] <drewinthehead> i can't lay my hands on it, but in short, it can't happen that anyone owns a microformat, as by contributing you're agreeing to licence your work with a particular license ...
  232. [17:43:53] <bretonslivka> Ah
  233. [17:44:08] <pnhChris> google could tell news sites "mark up your author and dateline like so and we'll be sure to pick it up on google news".. but that wouldn't turn into a google owned "microformat^CM"
  234. [17:44:17] <bretonslivka> So then where does that leave the widgets microformat, AKA AOL modules?
  235. [17:44:47] <bretonslivka> Information about it was certainly contributed to the wiki
  236. [17:44:49] <drewinthehead> widgets is still a proposal, isn't it?
  237. [17:45:35] <drewinthehead> it's not even that, in fact
  238. [17:45:38] <bretonslivka> It's apparently fully specified and currently in use on aimpages.com
  239. [17:45:40] <drewinthehead> just some brainstorming
  240. [17:45:47] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  241. [17:46:17] <drewinthehead> if it's not solving a general problem (i.e. if the problem is specific to AOL) then it's going nowhere
  242. [17:46:17] <bretonslivka> And much of the information about it has aol copyright notices
  243. [17:47:31] <drewinthehead> factoryjoe: do you know where on the wiki it states how contributed work is licensed?
  244. [17:47:37] <bretonslivka> it has the veneer of solving a general problem.
  245. [17:47:43] <factoryjoe> hmm
  246. [17:47:53] <bretonslivka> and how I originally remember seeing the widgets page it seemed like a good idea
  247. [17:48:07] <bretonslivka> Its just now I see all this aol stamping all over it
  248. [17:48:14] <bretonslivka> now I don't know what to make of it
  249. [17:48:18] <factoryjoe> i don't know that they followed the process well -- in terms of being involved in this community
  250. [17:48:36] <factoryjoe> i mean, it's generally open in that anyone can use the same classes
  251. [17:48:46] <factoryjoe> can that stuff really be copyrighted and protected?
  252. [17:48:55] <factoryjoe> seems like an open question
  253. [17:49:05] <factoryjoe> that tantek should weigh in on since he's talked to kevin
  254. [17:49:19] <pnhChris> if its yahoo! vs. little old me... that's certainly defacto protection :P
  255. [17:49:20] <tantek> hello
  256. [17:49:31] <factoryjoe> well, it's AOL
  257. [17:49:33] <pnhChris> ... if it ever came to that
  258. [17:49:40] <pnhChris> or aol.. or anyone else
  259. [17:49:43] <factoryjoe> tantek: what's up w/ the licensing stuff on hWidget?
  260. [17:49:56] <factoryjoe> there's AOL pee all over it it seems
  261. [17:50:00] <drewinthehead> back in 30mins ...
  262. [17:50:06] <factoryjoe> thus the territory has been marked
  263. [17:51:12] * cmessina (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  264. [17:51:19] <tantek> URL?
  265. [17:51:46] <bretonslivka> http://microformats.org/wiki/widget-brainstorming
  266. [17:51:49] <cmessina> drewinthehead was talking about it
  267. [17:51:56] <tantek> all microformats specs are required to follow the copyright/patent licensing templates (roughly: CC, RF)
  268. [17:52:06] <cmessina> and if they don;t?
  269. [17:52:22] <tantek> then they're not a microformat
  270. [17:52:27] <cmessina> ah ha
  271. [17:52:31] <cmessina> that's very clear then
  272. [17:52:37] <tantek> the point is, that if you're dumb enough to put bad licensing terms on your specs, then fewer people will adopt
  273. [17:52:41] <cmessina> has this been discussed w/ kevin?
  274. [17:52:45] <tantek> fewer people adopt = less chance of being a standard
  275. [17:52:47] <cmessina> totally
  276. [17:52:50] <cmessina> of course
  277. [17:53:09] <tantek> we just need to walk Kevin through writing it up as a draft on the microformats wiki
  278. [17:53:24] <tantek> with all the default microformat license template goodness
  279. [17:53:36] * tantek scrolls up
  280. [17:54:13] <bretonslivka> Well the problem as I see it, is that he's fully written a profile, and has it in use, and has licensed it
  281. [17:54:18] <tantek> bretonslivka, your ideas about widget+creator+deployment are very interesting
  282. [17:54:20] <bretonslivka> http://developer.iamalpha.com/profile/
  283. [17:54:28] <tantek> breton, that's perfectly fine
  284. [17:54:32] <bretonslivka> to america online
  285. [17:54:35] <tantek> people are encourage to do their own experiments
  286. [17:54:40] <tantek> and try them out in the wild
  287. [17:54:44] <tantek> it is a good way to gain experience
  288. [17:54:51] <tantek> that can be used to make a better microformat
  289. [17:55:06] <bretonslivka> So my question is, if widgets were to develop as a proper microformat
  290. [17:55:14] <bretonslivka> would it have to go in a significantly different directin from the work that's already been done
  291. [17:55:28] <bretonslivka> since that is in effect copyright aol?
  292. [17:55:33] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  293. [17:57:43] <bretonslivka> what I'm really asking is, do we now have to start from scratch?
  294. [17:59:07] <cmessina> the hwidget is blank
  295. [17:59:11] <cmessina> hwidget page that is
  296. [17:59:16] <cmessina> there's no formal spec
  297. [17:59:22] <cmessina> aol went and implemented what they had
  298. [17:59:33] <cmessina> they may have borrowed ideas from the mF process
  299. [17:59:52] <cmessina> but to my recollection the process they used wasn't entirely open or collaborative
  300. [18:00:40] <bretonslivka> okay. that makes sense.
  301. [18:01:04] <cmessina> it just seems like
  302. [18:01:07] <cmessina> we need more documentation
  303. [18:01:15] <cmessina> like the chat-brainstorming
  304. [18:01:22] <cmessina> we need to document apple dashboard widgets and yahoo widgets
  305. [18:01:26] <cmessina> and now M$ widgets
  306. [18:01:28] <cmessina> etc
  307. [18:01:39] <bretonslivka> So, consider a microformat that is a self contained bundle of functionality...
  308. [18:01:53] <bretonslivka> xslt that can transform it into apple, yahoo, or ms
  309. [18:02:02] <bretonslivka> and has plugins for the major blogs
  310. [18:02:09] <bretonslivka> and cms systems
  311. [18:02:24] <cmessina> well ideally they can all standardize on the same verbs and classes
  312. [18:02:30] <bretonslivka> is it worth while to develop that idea such that mf creators can be implemented in it
  313. [18:02:40] <cmessina> why xslt when the JS stuff should be consistent?
  314. [18:02:43] <bretonslivka> thus aiding the spread of microformats in general?
  315. [18:02:56] <cmessina> eh?
  316. [18:03:01] <cmessina> "is it worth while to develop that idea such that mf creators can be implemented in it"
  317. [18:03:04] <cmessina> i don't understand..
  318. [18:03:16] <bretonslivka> You know the hReview creator
  319. [18:03:21] <bretonslivka> and the hCard creator?
  320. [18:03:25] <bretonslivka> implement those in hWidget
  321. [18:03:42] <bretonslivka> then you've got instant hCard and hReview plugins for all the major CMS
  322. [18:04:09] <bretonslivka> the ones that have implemented hWidget anyway
  323. [18:05:08] <bretonslivka> It could become like a unified plugin structure for all sorts of web apps really
  324. [18:05:23] * missrogue (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  325. [18:05:49] * factoryjoe_ (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  326. [18:06:05] <bretonslivka> Indeed instead of transforming hWidget to the other formats, it could work as hWidget hosts being coded in each of those formats
  327. [18:06:11] <bretonslivka> like wrappers
  328. [18:06:31] <factoryjoe_> ....aaaaand we're back
  329. [18:06:33] <factoryjoe_> the secret trick?
  330. [18:06:35] <factoryjoe_> it's getting it into wordpress
  331. [18:06:37] <factoryjoe_> have you seen wordpress widgets?
  332. [18:06:39] <factoryjoe_> they're already being deployed
  333. [18:07:00] <factoryjoe_> we definitely need to document all of those areas though
  334. [18:07:04] <factoryjoe_> i'll go create the wiki page
  335. [18:07:49] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  336. [18:08:06] <bretonslivka> I have not seen wordpress widgets
  337. [18:08:39] <factoryjoe_> check out the hemingway theme
  338. [18:09:21] <factoryjoe_> http://automattic.com/code/widgets/
  339. [18:09:31] <factoryjoe_> http://automattic.com/code/widgets/plugins/
  340. [18:09:38] <factoryjoe_> http://automattic.com/code/widgets/api/
  341. [18:12:26] <bretonslivka> Hrmn, widgets in an RSS feed?
  342. [18:12:52] <bretonslivka> I wonder what that would be useful for
  343. [18:12:52] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  344. [18:13:27] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  345. [18:13:27] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  346. [18:13:28] <factoryjoe_> who knows... ;)
  347. [18:13:29] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  348. [18:16:11] <tantek> indeed
  349. [18:16:20] <tantek> btw, i'm very optimistic about the AOL widget work
  350. [18:16:32] <tantek> they're the only ones to even *try* to develop a widget format openly first
  351. [18:16:41] <factoryjoe_> sure
  352. [18:16:46] * factoryjoe_ is now known as factoryjoe
  353. [18:16:55] <factoryjoe> it's completely possible that they could come back and really help out
  354. [18:16:58] * drewinthehead returns
  355. [18:16:59] <tantek> and if anything, from my understanding, they would very much like to see a common widget format adopted across the various web widget platforms
  356. [18:17:06] <factoryjoe> i think that they didn't actually get a lot of support initially
  357. [18:17:09] <factoryjoe> and went off on their own
  358. [18:17:11] <tantek> from last time I spoke with Kevin
  359. [18:17:19] <factoryjoe> but if we express interest and do some work
  360. [18:17:29] <tantek> right, it's all about showing interest
  361. [18:17:30] <factoryjoe> i think kevin will rally the troops and bring their work back into the fols
  362. [18:17:31] <tantek> and participating
  363. [18:17:32] <factoryjoe> fold
  364. [18:17:38] <tantek> yes absolutely
  365. [18:17:40] <tantek> Kevin is a good guy
  366. [18:17:42] <factoryjoe> yes
  367. [18:17:46] <tantek> he is all about doing the right thing
  368. [18:17:48] <factoryjoe> he gets it and is behind mF
  369. [18:17:52] <tantek> he is one of the best things to happen to AOL
  370. [18:18:07] <factoryjoe> you mean calacanis isn't ;)
  371. [18:18:42] <tantek> now now, let's keep it nice
  372. [18:18:46] <tantek> no need to be snarky
  373. [18:18:50] <tantek> BTW,
  374. [18:18:54] <tantek> check out http://microformats.org/wiki/widget-examples
  375. [18:19:07] <tantek> Kevin *did* document Apple dashboard, MS widgets, Konfab/Y! etc.
  376. [18:19:16] <tantek> he has done *a lot * of open/public work on this
  377. [18:19:22] <tantek> and deserves credit for that
  378. [18:20:12] <factoryjoe> ah ha
  379. [18:20:16] <factoryjoe> nice
  380. [18:20:30] <factoryjoe> so will the name be hWidget?
  381. [18:20:57] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  382. [18:20:58] <bretonslivka> of course the benefits of an open widget format go beyond making it easiier to deploy mf creator plugins.
  383. [18:21:13] * cmessina (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  384. [18:21:56] <bretonslivka> Modular interface elements come to mind
  385. [18:22:22] <factoryjoe> yup
  386. [18:23:00] <mfbot> [[widget-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=widget-examples&diff=0&oldid=7625 * Chris Messina * (+307)
  387. [18:23:57] <bretonslivka> or even just as a platform for deployment of rich interactive content
  388. [18:24:28] <bretonslivka> If the format can be transformed to work in all the widget/gadget/etc structure.
  389. [18:24:46] <bretonslivka> then that saves authors time on redundant authoring
  390. [18:25:46] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=7626 * Mazso * (-238) Examples with some problems -
  391. [18:26:15] <factoryjoe> ok, gotta go
  392. [18:26:22] <tantek> bretonslivka, yes, there is some impressive potential there
  393. [18:26:23] <factoryjoe> presenting on the future of social browsing @ barcamprdu
  394. [18:26:30] <tantek> feel free to add your thoughts/notes to widget-brainstorming
  395. [18:26:36] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit ()
  396. [18:26:37] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=7627 * Mazso * (+142) New Examples -
  397. [18:28:43] <bretonslivka> Alright. Thanks for the nod. I'll get to that as soon as I can.
  398. [18:40:44] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@cackhanded.plus.com) Quit ()
  399. [18:48:26] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) has joined #microformats
  400. [18:51:26] * horsepigcow_ (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) has joined #microformats
  401. [18:51:48] * missrogue (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  402. [18:53:39] <mfbot> [[semantic-xhtml]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml * Tantek * (+212) draft
  403. [18:56:10] <mfbot> [[Template:semantic-xhtml-design-principles]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:semantic-xhtml-design-principles&diff=0&oldid=7628 * Tantek * (+19)
  404. [18:57:29] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  405. [18:57:29] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky. and Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  406. [18:57:38] <drewinthehead> bother.
  407. [18:58:41] <drewinthehead> ?forgetme
  408. [18:58:41] <jibot> I have expunged drewinthehead from my mind
  409. [18:59:05] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  410. [18:59:06] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  411. [18:59:31] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7629 * DrewMcLellan * (-87) Greetings -
  412. [18:59:44] <tantek> ?def drewinthehead is the author of hKit.
  413. [18:59:45] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky. and the author of hKit.
  414. [18:59:59] <tantek> ?forget drewinthehead is the author of hKit
  415. [18:59:59] <jibot> I did not know drewinthehead was the author of hKit
  416. [19:00:09] <tantek> ?forget drewinthehead is the author of hKit.
  417. [19:00:10] <jibot> I now only know that drewinthehead is Drew McLellan - watch him, he's tricky.
  418. [19:00:34] <drewinthehead> ?forgetme
  419. [19:00:34] <jibot> I have expunged drewinthehead from my mind
  420. [19:01:01] <tantek> drew, leave the period off the end so folks can add stuff to your def.
  421. [19:01:26] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit
  422. [19:01:27] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit
  423. [19:02:13] <drewinthehead> ?def drewinthehead is the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  424. [19:02:13] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  425. [19:02:42] <amette> ?forgetme
  426. [19:02:43] <jibot> I have expunged amette from my mind
  427. [19:02:49] <amette> ?def amette is http://amette.eu
  428. [19:02:50] <jibot> amette is http://amette.eu
  429. [19:02:59] <amette> thanks, jibot
  430. [19:03:23] <drewinthehead> it's nice to have jibot back
  431. [19:04:42] <amette> yeah, it helps kill my site... ;)
  432. [19:04:55] * amette likes jibot too though
  433. [19:05:02] <mfbot> [[semantic-xhtml]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7630 * Tantek * (+601) first draft - incomplete, please add to it and join in the semantic XHTML fun!
  434. [19:05:13] <amette> and you too, mfbot :)
  435. [19:06:03] <mfbot> [[semantic-xhtml]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7631 * Tantek * (+1)
  436. [19:07:04] <mfbot> [[semantic-xhtml]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7632 * Tantek * (+39)
  437. [19:08:00] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  438. [19:10:35] <_fil_> amette: I've just tried hkit; it works, and looks nice
  439. [19:10:48] <_fil_> doesn't do much yet :)
  440. [19:11:02] <drewinthehead> early days .. i'm glad it worked :)
  441. [19:11:16] <amette> I'm surely interested in it, but so far it does only hcard/hcal, right?
  442. [19:11:25] <amette> ah, drewinthehead :)
  443. [19:11:37] <drewinthehead> at the moment it's just hCard
  444. [19:11:47] <amette> drewinthehead : but it should be fairly easy to implement xFolk, I guess?
  445. [19:11:50] <mfbot> [[semantic-class-names]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-class-names * Tantek * (+579) first draft
  446. [19:12:06] <drewinthehead> but it's based around plugins for each microformat
  447. [19:12:13] <_fil_> sorry I mixed drewinthehead w/ amette :-//
  448. [19:12:16] <amette> hCard is much more complex and iirc, then you told or wrote about modularity?
  449. [19:12:28] <amette> ah, right, plugins for each mf :)
  450. [19:12:31] <drewinthehead> right .. xFolk should be easy
  451. [19:12:32] <tantek> drewinthehead, would be cool to see a version of the hCard creator which used hKit
  452. [19:12:43] <amette> _fil_ : ah, ok, I was wondering, but it fit well ;)
  453. [19:12:44] <tantek> to prefill many/most fields
  454. [19:12:48] <tantek> and then you could add more fields
  455. [19:12:50] <tantek> similarly
  456. [19:12:57] <tantek> a version of hReview creator that supported hKit
  457. [19:13:00] <_fil_> too much clicking amette 8-)
  458. [19:13:11] <tantek> so you could simply import the hCard for a business
  459. [19:13:16] <tantek> when reviewing it
  460. [19:13:21] <tantek> rather than having to type it all in again
  461. [19:13:22] <drewinthehead> yes, that could be interesting
  462. [19:13:26] <_fil_> I have a plugin for SPIP that uses hAtom2Atom, could use hkit
  463. [19:14:13] <_fil_> I enjoyed the idea of "proxy tidy"
  464. [19:14:47] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7633 * DrewMcLellan * (+79) Drew McLellan -
  465. [19:15:32] <mfbot> [[mailing-lists]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=mailing-lists&diff=0&oldid=7634 * Tantek * (+45)
  466. [19:16:16] <drewinthehead> i was messing around yesterday converting hAtom to RSS by stringing together hAtom2Atom and atom2rss
  467. [19:16:30] <drewinthehead> and it works ... just about
  468. [19:18:01] <_fil_> it's a pity you need to tidy up the html before feeding it to the h* scripts
  469. [19:18:36] <drewinthehead> yes .. but such is life
  470. [19:18:52] <_fil_> yeah well... you know...
  471. [19:19:20] <_fil_> your ATOM feed left me with visible <p>: need to go upgrade my parser :-/
  472. [19:19:29] <mfbot> [[Template:SemanticXHTMLDesignPrinciples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Template:SemanticXHTMLDesignPrinciples&diff=0&oldid=7635 * Tantek * (+19)
  473. [19:19:33] <drewinthehead> the biggest problem i've found is that tidy sometimes eats big chunks out of pages
  474. [19:19:41] <_fil_> never seen those &#60;p&#62; before
  475. [19:19:54] <drewinthehead> what's that from _fil_ ?
  476. [19:20:05] <_fil_> feed://allinthehead.com/atom/?section=hkit&limit=10
  477. [19:20:17] <_fil_> I meant http://allinthehead.com/atom/?section=hkit&limit=10
  478. [19:20:30] <_fil_> ok bye I'm off
  479. [19:22:21] <drewinthehead> ah, don't put too much weight in my atom feeds ... textpattern isn't particularly solid in that area
  480. [19:24:35] <mfbot> [[namespaces-considered-harmful]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+1142) first draft
  481. [19:25:59] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) has joined #microformats
  482. [19:26:56] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) Quit (Client Quit)
  483. [19:29:01] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful * Tantek * (+1839) first draft
  484. [19:29:32] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=7636 * Tantek * (-93)
  485. [19:31:13] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7637 * DrewMcLellan * (+11) Drew McLellan -
  486. [19:31:19] <mfbot> [[plain-old-xml-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=plain-old-xml-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=7638 * Tantek * (+35)
  487. [19:36:05] <mfbot> [[microformats-easier-than-xml]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats-easier-than-xml * Tantek * (+1204) first draft
  488. [19:36:21] <mfbot> [[namespaces-considered-harmful]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=namespaces-considered-harmful&diff=0&oldid=7639 * Tantek * (+35)
  489. [19:37:00] <tantek> ok, that ought to do it for now
  490. [19:37:09] * horsepigcow_ (n=horsepig@63.148.163.200) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  491. [19:37:31] <tantek> drew, others, would be interested to see your expansion upon those articles
  492. [19:38:29] <drewinthehead> ok, will look.
  493. [19:38:59] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  494. [19:48:14] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) has joined #microformats
  495. [19:49:07] <drewinthehead> just rolled out a new build of hKit: http://allinthehead.com/hkit
  496. [19:52:38] <factoryjoe> drewinthehead++
  497. [20:01:36] <drewinthehead> i like this layout - might be useful on our wiki: http://community.upcoming.org/w/index.php/Main_Page
  498. [20:09:11] <factoryjoe> they have a wiki?!
  499. [20:13:56] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
  500. [20:13:56] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
  501. [20:21:39] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69D82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  502. [20:23:06] <drewinthehead> yup, they have a wiki
  503. [20:23:51] <drewinthehead> and a slightly annoying API which is currently resulting in raised voices in our household ;)
  504. [20:30:04] <factoryjoe> really?
  505. [20:30:12] <factoryjoe> neat!
  506. [20:31:40] <drewinthehead> nothing quite like a API to start an argument.
  507. [20:34:23] <factoryjoe> heh
  508. [20:37:32] <bretonslivka> "considered harmful"
  509. [20:39:54] <tantek> drew and other php familiar folks - have you looked at phpicalendar?
  510. [20:40:09] <tantek> i've wondered how hard it would be to add hCalendar support to it
  511. [20:40:53] <bretonslivka> I've looked at it in a very shallow sort of way
  512. [20:41:05] <bretonslivka> from what I've seen, I think it supports html templating of some sort
  513. [20:42:04] <tantek> would be great to markup the default output with hCalendar
  514. [20:42:27] <bretonslivka> I'll download it and take a look at it
  515. [20:42:34] <bretonslivka> I had the same thought
  516. [20:42:42] <bretonslivka> several months ago,
  517. [20:42:46] <bretonslivka> but I never really took the next step
  518. [20:42:53] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) Quit (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  519. [20:43:37] <bretonslivka> Either that or my head is really playing tricks on me
  520. [20:43:48] <bretonslivka> and I'm really making all this up without realizing it.
  521. [20:44:20] <factoryjoe> omg
  522. [20:44:25] <factoryjoe> http://www.flickr.com/photos/factoryjoe/195492568/
  523. [20:44:27] <factoryjoe> within 4 hours
  524. [20:45:32] <drewinthehead> there weren't many left by the time i got to it ... spotted svnX and iTerm
  525. [20:47:40] <bretonslivka> event.tpl from phpicalendar: http://zenpsycho.kicks-ass.net/event.tpl.txt
  526. [20:47:48] <bretonslivka> from the default template
  527. [20:48:40] <drewinthehead> yuk .. that could use some love
  528. [20:48:43] <bretonslivka> it honestly looks *trivial* to add hcalendar to this
  529. [20:48:52] <bretonslivka> yeah table based, ugh
  530. [20:49:05] <bretonslivka> but luckily hcalendar doesn't require spectacular code
  531. [20:49:14] <bretonslivka> just something good enough for tidy to chew
  532. [20:49:33] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  533. [20:49:33] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  534. [20:49:45] <bretonslivka> From what I understand anyway
  535. [20:50:10] <bretonslivka> And what exactly is a center tag?
  536. [20:50:19] * pnhChris smiles at jibot
  537. [20:50:21] <bretonslivka> I'm not sure I've ever heard of that
  538. [20:51:23] <factoryjoe> heh
  539. [20:51:35] <factoryjoe> yeah they should have also made the <left> and <right> tags
  540. [20:51:41] <factoryjoe> as part of the hcard spec
  541. [20:51:53] <factoryjoe> <right>george bush</right> etc
  542. [20:52:37] <bretonslivka> Could make a fully CSS semantic xhtml template for phpicalendar in the same blow
  543. [20:52:42] <pnhChris> only if you coud put right + left outside of the html tag :P
  544. [20:52:47] <bretonslivka> the templates don't even contain php code, it looks like smarty
  545. [20:53:37] <bretonslivka> Haha new microformat, rel-political-affiliation
  546. [20:54:12] <pnhChris> rel-political-affiliation: great microformat ... or the greatest microformat
  547. [20:54:37] <factoryjoe> i like that you could use it like rel-directory
  548. [20:54:45] <factoryjoe> to profess your membership
  549. [20:55:14] <factoryjoe> <a href=http://commies.com rel=political-affiliation>communist party</a>
  550. [20:55:43] <pnhChris> maybe someone should take it up with XFN :P
  551. [20:55:52] <factoryjoe> heh
  552. [20:55:55] <factoryjoe> hkit output: http://tools.microformatic.com/query/plain/hkit/http://factoryjoe.com/blog/hcard
  553. [20:56:14] <factoryjoe> drewinthehead: you should add support for XFN
  554. [20:56:21] <drewinthehead> yes, it's on the list :)
  555. [20:56:25] <factoryjoe> have you seen http://xfnsearch.joshpeek.com/
  556. [20:56:29] <drewinthehead> does that output look ok?
  557. [20:56:36] <factoryjoe> i think so
  558. [20:56:43] <factoryjoe> but i'd like the rel values on the URLs to be included
  559. [20:57:35] <drewinthehead> sure, i'm planning to make XFN a stock feature
  560. [20:58:31] <drewinthehead> and also to look for <address> elements to identify the author's hCard in a page of hCards (... tantek.com is a good example)
  561. [20:58:46] <factoryjoe> cool
  562. [20:59:48] <bretonslivka> what exactly was it that made address difficult? that it's an inline element and not a block?
  563. [21:01:02] <drewinthehead> difficult for whom?
  564. [21:01:12] <pnhChris> that its a block
  565. [21:01:47] <pnhChris> and can't be used inside some other elements... like <p> for example
  566. [21:02:04] <pnhChris> or li
  567. [21:02:17] <pnhChris> (like you might find in hatom cases)
  568. [21:02:34] <bretonslivka> oh
  569. [21:02:51] <bretonslivka> so you can't have a list of hcards
  570. [21:03:00] <pnhChris> ?
  571. [21:03:39] <bretonslivka> <ul><li><address class="hcard"></address></li></ul>
  572. [21:03:46] <bretonslivka> if you use the address
  573. [21:03:46] <bretonslivka> tag
  574. [21:03:52] <pnhChris> right
  575. [21:04:38] <drewinthehead> factoryjoe: i had you down for older than 25 :)
  576. [21:04:44] <factoryjoe> oh?
  577. [21:04:45] <factoryjoe> like what?
  578. [21:04:52] <pnhChris> well.. no bretonslivka
  579. [21:04:57] <pnhChris> actually li is ok
  580. [21:04:57] <pnhChris> sorry
  581. [21:04:59] <pnhChris> :P
  582. [21:05:03] <drewinthehead> i think i had you as older than me .. but not my much
  583. [21:05:05] <pnhChris> but p is an issue
  584. [21:05:07] <drewinthehead> i'm 26
  585. [21:05:25] <pnhChris> .. also limits the elements inside address
  586. [21:05:29] <pnhChris> in some cases
  587. [21:05:53] <factoryjoe> ah
  588. [21:06:01] <factoryjoe> i thought you'd be older too ;)
  589. [21:06:06] <pnhChris> its just not an easy thing to work with
  590. [21:06:14] * pnhChris thought drew was older as well
  591. [21:06:38] * drewinthehead feels old ;)
  592. [21:07:28] <bretonslivka> address is silly
  593. [21:08:05] <bretonslivka> There should be an html tag for every silly little semantic we can dream up.
  594. [21:08:16] <bretonslivka> and there should be about a 60 percent browser compliance
  595. [21:08:31] <bretonslivka> each browser supporting a different set of tags
  596. [21:08:43] <bretonslivka> And wait that already happened
  597. [21:13:05] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7640 * ChristopheDucamp * (+94) Emphase sur Pratique, Simple et Minimal - translation in progress
  598. [21:15:06] <bretonslivka> I am so happy darwine works on gene pool, but it's such a time waster :9
  599. [21:16:26] <mfbot> [[media-info-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=media-info-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7641 * ChristopheDucamp * (+149) Notes Générales A Propos des Exemples -
  600. [21:31:16] <bretonslivka> There's a french version of mf.org?
  601. [21:31:51] <drewinthehead> mais oui
  602. [21:35:44] <tantek> yes, there is a French translation in progress
  603. [21:35:54] <bretonslivka> that's totally awesome
  604. [21:36:03] <tantek> try adding -fr to the end of any page to see the French version
  605. [21:36:10] <tantek> to the end of the URL that is
  606. [21:36:19] <bretonslivka> I'd be even more impressed if french were the only language I could read.. But as it is, I'm still pretty impressed
  607. [21:37:48] <tantek> factoryjoe, political-affiliation is already handled by the current rel-group proposal
  608. [21:38:53] <factoryjoe> oh?
  609. [21:38:59] <factoryjoe> can you give me an example?
  610. [21:41:15] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  611. [21:42:11] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  612. [21:43:22] <tantek> rel="group"
  613. [21:45:29] <factoryjoe> huh
  614. [21:47:27] <drewinthehead> <a href="http://republicrats.gov" rel="group">Go Team!</a> ?
  615. [21:53:54] <tantek> yeah
  616. [21:54:07] <tantek> I believe Eran Globen first proposed rel="member" and rel="group"
  617. [21:54:10] <tantek> it was a while ago
  618. [21:54:17] <tantek> as extensions to XFN
  619. [21:54:41] <tantek> a simple way for a person to associate with their groups or for a group to associate with their members
  620. [21:54:57] <drewinthehead> i like
  621. [21:55:04] <tantek> links to your org(s) would be appropriate too
  622. [21:55:32] <drewinthehead> <a href="http://www.webstandards.org/" rel="member">WaSP</a>
  623. [21:56:24] <tantek> like for me: <a rel="group" href="http://technorati.com">Technorati</a> <a rel="group" href="http://microformats.org">microformats.org</a> <a rel="group" href="http://webstandards.org">WaSP</a> <a rel="group" href="http://gmpg.org">GMPG</a> <a rel="group" href="http://w3.org">W3C</a> <a rel="group" href="http://w3.org/Style/Group">CSS WG</a> etc.
  624. [21:57:02] <drewinthehead> now you're just showing off ;)
  625. [21:58:58] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7642 * Ant * (+56) Exploratory discussions - add metalink-examples
  626. [21:59:36] <factoryjoe> ok i'm out
  627. [21:59:39] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit ()
  628. [21:59:54] <mfbot> [[group-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=group-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7643 * Tantek * (+286) added rel group member
  629. [22:00:02] <tantek> metalink???
  630. [22:01:12] <tantek> oh that's just alternatives, but misnamed
  631. [22:01:46] <drewinthehead> ah, ok
  632. [22:02:30] <mfbot> [[alternates-formats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=alternates-formats&diff=0&oldid=7644 * Tantek * (+73) added see alsos
  633. [22:03:44] <drewinthehead> i wonder if that could be better achieved with something like rel="somelabel"
  634. [22:04:30] <drewinthehead> or some way to describe that all those links have the same relationship to the current page
  635. [22:05:06] <mfbot> [[metalink-examples]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=metalink-examples&diff=0&oldid=7645 * Tantek * (+117) please incorporate into alternates-examples
  636. [22:08:50] * amette (n=amette@pD9E69D82.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) has joined #microformats
  637. [22:08:50] <jibot> amette is http://amette.eu
  638. [22:09:38] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
  639. [22:17:03] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  640. [22:17:22] <drewinthehead> 'lo Phae
  641. [22:17:31] <Phae> Evening.
  642. [22:18:38] <drewinthehead> i caught your note earlier about your hAtom .. good news.
  643. [22:18:44] <Phae> :)
  644. [22:19:02] <bretonslivka> Tantek, did you get a look at the phpicalendar template I posted?
  645. [22:21:25] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  646. [22:21:34] <drewinthehead> ?def Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  647. [22:21:35] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  648. [22:21:44] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  649. [22:22:51] <Phae> oh
  650. [22:22:56] <Phae> I was thinking i should do that. cheers.
  651. [22:25:07] <Phae> Okay. So, I was thinking about hAtom and how easy/hard it was to implement. I wondered if someone can answer as to why "updated" is required, but "published" isn't, or is used instead of updated. Surely something can't be updated until it's published in the first place?
  652. [22:25:17] <mfbot> [[resume-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7646 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Contact - typo
  653. [22:25:19] <Phae> I'm sure there must be a reasoning, I just don't know what it is. :)
  654. [22:28:14] <mfbot> [[resume-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=resume-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7647 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3) Voir aussi -
  655. [22:29:18] <drewinthehead> i think it must relate to the atom spec
  656. [22:30:14] <Phae> It just seems a little odd to me.
  657. [22:32:14] <tantek> I believe that it means that if there is no published date, then the updated date is used for the published date as well
  658. [22:32:59] <Phae> I thought it was the other way around. If there's no update date, it uses published?
  659. [22:33:20] <drewinthehead> one of those so called optimisations that i love so well
  660. [22:33:33] <Phae> Wiki says, re: updated
  661. [22:33:38] <Phae> if there is no Entry Updated element,
  662. [22:33:38] <Phae> * use the Entry Published element, if present
  663. [22:33:38] <Phae> * otherwise the page is invalid hAtom
  664. [22:33:51] <tantek> you're right Phae I had it backwards ;)
  665. [22:33:54] * horsepigcow (n=horsepig@wireless-nat-pool-rdu.redhat.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  666. [22:34:03] <Phae> So, that's what I'm not getting. You can't update something that was never published.
  667. [22:38:35] <drewinthehead> so is it a case of the spec being contradictory?
  668. [22:39:29] <Phae> I don't know if that's the right term for it, but it just does make simple logical sense.
  669. [22:39:35] <Phae> doesn't*
  670. [22:40:12] <Phae> imo, published should be required, and updated the optional extra
  671. [22:40:54] <drewinthehead> the section you quoted above seems to indicate that published is required and updated in optional
  672. [22:41:01] <drewinthehead> is optional
  673. [22:41:04] * bewes1 (n=ben@67.107.182.2) has joined #microformats
  674. [22:41:33] <Phae> it says that it SHOULD have updated, and if it doesn't, it should take published.
  675. [22:41:47] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) Quit (Nick collision from services.)
  676. [22:41:52] * bewes1 is now known as bewest
  677. [22:42:09] <Phae> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom#Entry_Updated
  678. [22:42:22] * drewinthehead RTFMs
  679. [22:42:30] <Phae> It could be me being a muppet.
  680. [22:43:12] <drewinthehead> i think that's a contradiction
  681. [22:43:39] <Phae> The hAtom hints, which is outdated, but still.. has both elements listed as optional
  682. [22:43:51] <drewinthehead> updated is required, yet it states an entry SHOULD have an updated element .. i think that should be MUST
  683. [22:43:54] <Phae> But I still think published should be prefered over updated, first.
  684. [22:44:26] <drewinthehead> i agree on that point .. but i suspect that may be an atom thing
  685. [22:44:32] <Phae> Okay, fair enough.
  686. [22:44:46] <Phae> But a dating for an entry of some kind should be listed as a *must*, you're right.
  687. [22:44:54] <drewinthehead> i'd like to get some clarification on how a required item only SHOULD exist
  688. [22:44:59] <Phae> Yeah
  689. [22:45:06] <drewinthehead> required = MUST in my book
  690. [22:45:12] <Phae> Agreed.
  691. [22:46:31] <drewinthehead> any thoughts, tantek?
  692. [22:48:04] <tantek> that's right, required = MUST
  693. [22:48:17] <tantek> but the key here is
  694. [22:48:27] <tantek> that lacking an explicitly updated published/updated
  695. [22:48:35] <tantek> we can use the "last-modified" of the page
  696. [22:48:59] * tantek checks what he is doing in his blog
  697. [22:49:20] <Phae> The spec says if something isn't marked as published or updated it's invalid though?
  698. [22:49:31] <Phae> I mean yeah, it'd be cool to use that.
  699. [22:50:27] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@67-40-166-22.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
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  702. [23:05:01] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  703. [23:05:21] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
  704. [23:07:24] <drewinthehead> it seems odd to have something be required and then to prescribe what to do if it's not there
  705. [23:07:48] <Phae> Yeah, that bit does seem contradictory.
  706. [23:17:31] <drewinthehead> i'm done kicking the upcoming.org API for the evening ... time for bed :)
  707. [23:17:56] <Phae> night drew
  708. [23:17:56] <drewinthehead> night
  709. [23:18:05] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthebed
  710. [23:20:36] <pnhChris> night drew
  711. [23:20:44] <pnhChris> as for published vs. updated
  712. [23:20:57] <pnhChris> often first publish may get lost over time
  713. [23:21:29] <pnhChris> so regardless of the atom reasoning, i've found the situation conviented for existing pages I'm modifying to include hatom
  714. [23:22:25] <Phae> So you're using it for the original publish of the actual page then? Rather than individual entries?
  715. [23:22:30] <pnhChris> atoms reasoning, i'm guessing, is part related to freshness of content
  716. [23:22:32] <Phae> Basically, feed publish date.
  717. [23:23:16] <pnhChris> i'm using it for situations that don't fall under a standard blog scenario
  718. [23:24:57] <Phae> I see.
  719. [23:25:05] <pnhChris> do you? :P
  720. [23:25:19] <Phae> :/
  721. [23:25:21] <Phae> cheers.
  722. [23:25:27] <pnhChris> http://chunkysoup.net/extras/zeitgeist/
  723. [23:25:29] <Phae> My point is really that the spec may not be as clear as it should be.
  724. [23:25:35] <pnhChris> with no original publish date
  725. [23:25:42] <pnhChris> because its ages ago and i forgot
  726. [23:25:54] <pnhChris> vs. this ..where i have both
  727. [23:25:54] <pnhChris> http://chunkysoup.net/extras/behindcs/
  728. [23:26:02] <Phae> Yea
  729. [23:26:37] <pnhChris> but when you think about it.. the feed reader or other consumer.. typically having an updated date is more important in all cases wehre updated is newer then published
  730. [23:26:45] <pnhChris> otherwise, you have to guess at changes
  731. [23:27:02] <pnhChris> the hatom spec as written is a bit confusing
  732. [23:27:12] <pnhChris> well.. if you don't read it all and just look at the schema
  733. [23:28:07] <Phae> okay. fine. Given your reasoning, I've misinterpreted. I should be marking my published dates as updates.
  734. [23:28:20] <pnhChris> updated is kinda one of those required w/footnote things and that doesn't come across real well in places
  735. [23:28:55] <pnhChris> well :P
  736. [23:28:58] <Phae> :/
  737. [23:29:09] <pnhChris> i think ii use publish on my blog entries
  738. [23:29:13] <pnhChris> cause that's what the date is
  739. [23:29:29] <pnhChris> and i didn't put both dates in the markup for cases i've edited
  740. [23:29:35] <pnhChris> so
  741. [23:29:38] <pnhChris> yeah
  742. [23:29:42] <Phae> Well, that's what I am using. It seems there are different interpretations. It should be more clear how they ought to be used.
  743. [23:29:48] <pnhChris> you've figured it out tho
  744. [23:30:30] <pnhChris> atom spec requires updated
  745. [23:30:38] <pnhChris> hatom parsers help you out
  746. [23:30:52] <pnhChris> by using published if you haven't specified updated
  747. [23:31:47] <pnhChris> probably bad of an author not to include both in a template when they differ
  748. [23:31:49] <pnhChris> but
  749. [23:32:34] <pnhChris> its not invalid if you don't
  750. [23:32:56] <Phae> Yeah, I get that.
  751. [23:33:15] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC94E4B3.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  752. [23:33:15] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  753. [23:33:16] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  754. [23:45:15] <Phae> Okay, I really need to go to bed now. Night all.
  755. [23:45:26] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  756. [23:46:52] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  757. [23:47:45] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats

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