IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:31:03] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  2. [00:31:04] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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  10. [00:58:01] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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  21. [02:21:39] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  23. [02:21:55] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  28. [03:36:19] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  38. [04:18:37] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  39. [04:52:57] <mfbot> [[xoxo-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-fr&diff=0&oldid=7674 * ChristopheDucamp * (+4) Implémentations -
  40. [05:02:08] <mfbot> [[blog-post-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7675 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) Entrées Individuelles -
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  45. [05:15:31] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
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  49. [05:39:46] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7676 * ChristopheDucamp * (+595)
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  51. [05:44:49] <bretonslivka> Mariokart DS microformat!
  52. [05:44:52] <bretonslivka> http://www.merkwelt.com/people/stan/marioKartDSMicroformat.html
  53. [05:48:22] <vant> hmm looks quite domain specific
  54. [05:49:36] <vant> http://bulknews.typepad.com/blog/2006/05/tetris_ds_id_mi.html there's another for tetris ds..
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  62. [07:06:00] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  63. [07:06:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  64. [07:06:50] <bretonslivka> tantek!
  65. [07:07:07] <tantek> greetings
  66. [07:07:42] <bretonslivka> Ah yes, I'm not sure you got my messages before but I looked into phpicalendar, and the templating system makes hcalendar implementation trivial
  67. [07:08:10] <bretonslivka> Just in case you wanted to know ;)
  68. [07:08:32] <tantek> oh very cool
  69. [07:08:41] <bretonslivka> I'd do it myself if I weren't bogged down this very moment.
  70. [07:08:53] <bretonslivka> It looks like a fun project actually
  71. [07:09:02] <tantek> hopefully there is a chance of contributing improved default templates to the core phpicalendar code
  72. [07:09:20] <tantek> so that folks that use phpicalendar automatically publish valid hCalendar
  73. [07:09:49] <bretonslivka> indeed. The trick is selling something like microformats to a team that apparently thinks that table tags and *uhg* center tags are still really useful!
  74. [07:09:53] <bretonslivka> inline styles..
  75. [07:10:07] <tantek> yes
  76. [07:10:10] <bretonslivka> all kinds xhtml sins abound in the default template
  77. [07:10:34] <tantek> it is interesting how the open source programming world is a bit behind the web design world in terms of understanding of proper use of (X)HTML
  78. [07:11:29] <bretonslivka> Yeah I find it a bit confounding myself
  79. [07:12:12] <bretonslivka> Brilliantly complex peices of software that spit out inept xhtml, it's really wierd
  80. [07:12:41] <bretonslivka> Oh well, thought you'd like the good news anyway
  81. [07:12:48] <bretonslivka> it's all smarty based
  82. [07:12:58] <bretonslivka> so most of the code you'd have to modify doesn't even contain php
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  85. [07:18:10] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  86. [07:18:11] <jibot> mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
  87. [07:18:54] <mfbot> [[geo]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=geo&diff=0&oldid=7677 * Tantek * (+26) copy/paste bug fix, forgotten word
  88. [07:19:42] <tantek> bretonslivka, that is good to know. does anyone here have any experience with smarty?
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  91. [07:22:27] <bretonslivka> There's not a lot to know really. It's just xhtml with a .tpl extension.. .and wherever dynamic data goes you get something like {date}
  92. [07:23:47] <bretonslivka> i have an example here http://zenpsycho.kicks-ass.net/event.tpl.txt
  93. [07:27:17] * ibretonslvka (n=bretonsl@c-67-190-186-46.hsd1.co.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  94. [07:27:29] <ibretonslvka> sorry about the link.
  95. [07:27:31] <ibretonslvka> doesn't work
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  99. [07:46:51] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
  100. [07:47:02] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  101. [07:49:00] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  102. [07:49:01] <jibot> mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
  103. [07:49:25] <Whiskey_M> morning francis
  104. [07:49:31] <mn_francis> hola!
  105. [07:49:58] <Whiskey_M> need coffee - bbiab
  106. [07:53:16] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  107. [07:53:17] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  108. [08:00:42] <Whiskey_M> just a quick one since I have to wander into a meeting - do either of you know if there were any thoughts about sticking an XSD behind XMDP?
  109. [08:03:54] <Whiskey_M> I guess not then ;)
  110. [08:07:46] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  111. [08:07:46] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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  115. [08:19:24] * boneill (i=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  116. [08:19:24] <jibot> boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
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  119. [08:59:44] <trovster> http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-vcal.php?uri=http://www.geekinthepark.co.uk -- why won't this open in Outlook?
  120. [09:01:05] <Whiskey_M> I guess you're getting this error: This error can appear if you have attempted to save a recurring Lunar appointment in iCalendar format.
  121. [09:01:05] <Whiskey_M> To avoid this error, set the appointment option to Gregorian instead of Lunar.
  122. [09:01:05] <Whiskey_M> More information about this error message online.
  123. [09:05:23] <boneill> opens in outlook 2007 fine for me
  124. [09:07:07] <trovster> Heh, someone got that yesterday, when it came out of the Technorati service!
  125. [09:14:09] * McNulty thinks 'nice site'
  126. [09:15:02] <McNulty> trovster - you maintain that?
  127. [09:15:07] <trovster> Maintain what?
  128. [09:15:11] <McNulty> geekinthepark
  129. [09:15:29] <trovster> Heh, yeh, it's not 'live' yet, as some things need finishing, like IE!
  130. [09:15:41] <McNulty> you should probably specify a charset too
  131. [09:16:00] <McNulty> I'll seeing lots of mangled chars
  132. [09:16:13] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  133. [09:16:29] <trovster> McNulty: Damn stupid Dreamweaver, not saving it correctly.
  134. [09:16:56] <McNulty> it's saved as UTF-8 but because there's no encoding specified anywhere my firefox was guessing ISO8859-1
  135. [09:17:05] <McNulty> If you put the headers in it'll all work fine
  136. [09:17:11] <trovster> Oh, hmm, I thought it was. OK
  137. [09:17:55] <trovster> $charset = 'utf-8'; header('Content-Type: '.$mime.'; charset='.$charset);
  138. [09:18:09] <McNulty> Content-Type: text/html
  139. [09:18:14] <McNulty> is what the server's sending
  140. [09:18:18] <trovster> $mime = 'text/html';
  141. [09:18:22] <trovster> Yes, I know.
  142. [09:18:27] <trovster> It's HTML.. :)
  143. [09:18:34] <McNulty> no charset after it, is my point ;-)
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  146. [09:22:47] <trovster> what the hell, I don't need this. This is bullshit. It's there, and works on all my other sites!
  147. [09:23:12] <McNulty> mod_gzip might be interfering?
  148. [09:23:15] * McNulty shrugs
  149. [09:23:44] <McNulty> just put a meta http-equiv in and forget about it ;-)
  150. [09:25:05] <trovster> no. it should be frickin' working!
  151. [09:25:23] <McNulty> other sites on the same server work?
  152. [09:26:14] <trovster> http://www.multipack.co.uk/ - yup
  153. [09:26:46] <McNulty> oh yeah
  154. [09:27:29] <McNulty> WEIRD
  155. [09:27:52] <trovster> What the hell, I've just enabled XHTML, it's XHML content, but text/html content-type, the script on this page is screwed :(
  156. [09:29:30] <trovster> oh oh, it's decided to be UTF8 now :D
  157. [09:29:37] <McNulty> oh good
  158. [09:29:40] <McNulty> what did you change
  159. [09:29:52] <trovster> I enabled XHTML, then I went back to HTML...
  160. [09:30:11] <McNulty> I'm still not getting that in the header
  161. [09:31:58] <trovster> It's gone back now... what.the.fuck.
  162. [09:36:14] <trovster> header('Content-Type: '.$mime.'; charset='.$charset); echo 'header(\'Content-Type: '.$mime.'; charset=\''.$charset.');';
  163. [09:37:40] <McNulty> I would guess Apache is rewriting your headers for you somehow
  164. [09:38:13] <McNulty> just put a meta in
  165. [09:38:55] <trovster> meta == bad (for that)
  166. [09:39:14] <McNulty> I like having the meta because it survives pages being saved etc.
  167. [09:39:22] <McNulty> I set the headers as well when I can.
  168. [09:39:47] <trovster> this should be setting ;@
  169. [09:41:05] <McNulty> I've seen all sorts of weird quirks with FastCGI and PHP
  170. [09:41:27] <McNulty> Our server at work rewrites the status code to OK no matter what you set
  171. [09:41:37] <McNulty> So we have lots of pages saying HTTP/1.1 404 OK
  172. [09:43:17] <trovster> Okily dokily, try now...
  173. [09:44:16] <McNulty> nope
  174. [09:45:50] <trovster> It is here in FF, but not in IE.
  175. [09:45:58] <McNulty> ?!
  176. [09:46:12] <McNulty> I'm doing View Response Headers in the web developers' toolbar
  177. [09:46:37] <trovster> I'm under general in FF, Encoding: UTF-8;
  178. [09:46:57] <McNulty> general?
  179. [09:47:14] <trovster> Page Info (click the tick!)
  180. [09:47:41] <McNulty> That's just FF's guess
  181. [09:48:15] <McNulty> If you change it in View->character encoding it'll change in the page info window too
  182. [09:48:33] <trovster> Headers, I get some registration crap
  183. [09:49:07] <McNulty> where's a good place to pastebin stuff
  184. [09:49:58] <trovster> pastebin.ca ? paste.css-standards.org
  185. [09:50:24] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  186. [09:50:24] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  187. [09:51:14] <McNulty> trovster - here are the headers
  188. [09:51:17] <McNulty> http://paste.css-standards.org/1670
  189. [09:52:06] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Connection timed out)
  190. [09:53:05] <trovster> grr, how can I get to see these headers
  191. [09:53:36] <McNulty> get the web developers toolbar
  192. [09:53:40] <trovster> I have it.
  193. [09:53:58] <McNulty> Information -> View Response Headers
  194. [09:53:58] <trovster> aha, got it
  195. [09:54:45] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  196. [09:54:45] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  197. [09:54:47] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has left #microformats
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  199. [09:54:59] <trovster> header('Content-Type: fuck-you'); -- not takign that all, so it seems :D
  200. [09:55:24] <drewinthehead> mornin'
  201. [09:56:27] <McNulty> morning drew
  202. [09:58:30] <McNulty> trovster - if you change the content-type to text/plain does that work
  203. [09:59:16] <trovster> negative.
  204. [10:00:00] <McNulty> what level is your error reporting at? You might be accidentally outputting something before the header and the warning is being surpressed
  205. [10:00:07] <trovster> utf-8 => header('Content-Type: '.$mime.'; charset='.$charset); echo $charset; -- the PHP is correct, it's being overwritten somewhere
  206. [10:02:10] <drewinthehead> what's the url, trovster?
  207. [10:02:21] <trovster> www.geekinthepark.co.uk
  208. [10:02:37] <McNulty> trovster - there's definitely no PHP output prior to that?
  209. [10:02:46] <trovster> Definitely 100%
  210. [10:03:01] <McNulty> no linebreaks at the end of includes etc
  211. [10:04:42] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  212. [10:04:42] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  213. [10:08:09] <trovster> McNulty: Try now/
  214. [10:08:17] * McNulty crosses his fingers
  215. [10:08:30] <McNulty> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
  216. [10:08:32] <McNulty> ace
  217. [10:08:34] <McNulty> what changed?
  218. [10:08:46] <McNulty> the chars on the page have fixed themselves too
  219. [10:08:58] <trovster> function mark_up($n) { -- does this look familiar to anyone?
  220. [10:09:32] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@h-68-164-89-20.snvacaid.dynamic.covad.net) has joined #microformats
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  222. [10:10:26] <McNulty> nnope
  223. [10:10:55] * trovster looks at drewinthehead
  224. [10:11:11] <McNulty> what was breaking your headers?
  225. [10:11:29] <trovster> Yes, after that it had header,text/html
  226. [10:11:52] <McNulty> mark_up has some echos in then
  227. [10:12:04] <drewinthehead> trovster: ?
  228. [10:13:14] <drewinthehead> ah, right yes ... i set content types
  229. [10:13:33] * trovster bills drewinthehead for 1 hours work
  230. [10:13:35] <drewinthehead> but you're the one running it .. you need to know and take responsibility for what you're running :)
  231. [10:13:58] * drewinthehead bills trovster for 12 hours development work
  232. [10:14:13] * trovster bills drewinthehead
  233. [10:20:48] <Phae> heh
  234. [10:21:04] <Whiskey_M> busy on here today :-)
  235. [10:21:46] <trovster> It's only been me banging my head about a content-type!
  236. [10:22:04] <Phae> Your header all error free now?
  237. [10:22:23] <McNulty> trovster - header($whatever, true);
  238. [10:22:43] <McNulty> *should* replace existing headers
  239. [10:23:04] <McNulty> may depend on your version though
  240. [10:27:16] <trovster> <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"> -- added that now too
  241. [10:28:09] <McNulty> course it'd be a non-issue if you entity-ized the funny chars in the text!
  242. [10:28:32] <drewinthehead> shouldn't need to .. utf-8 is awesome
  243. [10:28:37] <trovster> Exactly.
  244. [10:28:45] <McNulty> fair enough.
  245. [10:29:02] <trovster> All that I've got left to do is... loads :(
  246. [10:41:22] <Whiskey_M> whilst there are people alive on here - anyone have any thoughts about the XMDP / XSD stuff I've been playing with?
  247. [10:44:17] <drewinthehead> what's your goal with it Whiskey_M?
  248. [10:45:50] <Whiskey_M> Kinda here: http://microformats.org/wiki/xmdp-brainstorming#Follow_up
  249. [10:46:50] <Whiskey_M> basically a little work which people implementing microformats will never need to know about, but would be a bridging layer between microformats and other definitions
  250. [10:54:33] <Whiskey_M> I guess it's a naff idea then :-S
  251. [10:54:47] <McNulty> What's the problem that it solves?
  252. [10:55:04] <McNulty> It's an interesting idea, I'd worry it was a little academic
  253. [10:55:18] <Whiskey_M> at the present time microformats are not easily machine readable - this would make them easy for machines to read
  254. [10:55:43] <McNulty> you mean unfamiliar microformats right
  255. [10:55:49] <Whiskey_M> yup
  256. [10:56:06] <McNulty> what is my parser going to do with an unfamiliar microformat?
  257. [10:56:45] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  258. [10:56:46] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  259. [10:58:03] <Whiskey_M> at present (I may have this wrong - sorry), for each familiar microformat your parser needs to understand what's in there and how to parse it from the HTML?
  260. [10:59:16] <drewinthehead> that's right
  261. [10:59:36] <drewinthehead> it needs to know what to look for
  262. [10:59:46] <Whiskey_M> what I'm suggesting is that even unfamiliar microformats can be parsed from HTML without having to rewrite the parser for the specific microformat
  263. [11:01:16] <Whiskey_M> what is then done with them is then upto the author of the microformat -- perhaps link to a remote XSL for accessible browsing, perhaps link to a resource that can then turn the microformat into an RDF or OWL datasource.
  264. [11:01:39] <Whiskey_M> perhaps do a stylesheet to allow them to be viewed nicely in tails
  265. [11:02:18] <Whiskey_M> the author of the HTML page need not know / care about the technical gubbins as long as they produce the microformat correctly
  266. [11:03:05] <McNulty> hm
  267. [11:03:50] <Whiskey_M> sorry, I've got to run to what will be a boring meeting where I'd rather poke at my eyes with a sharp pencil :(
  268. [11:04:30] <drewinthehead> Whiskey_M, I'd be interested to see how all the processing rules could be expressed in a machine readable format
  269. [11:04:48] * chucker_ (n=chucker@p5489F709.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  270. [11:05:57] <Whiskey_M> XSD can provide the data format and nesting (geo, lat, long) - I'd propose a microformat namespace that is able to provide parsing hints for html (there seem only to be about a dozen rules), XSD allows custom attributes to be bound to xsd elements
  271. [11:13:41] * chucker (n=chucker@p5489F155.dip.t-dialin.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  272. [11:18:17] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  273. [11:39:02] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  274. [12:09:37] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  275. [12:09:37] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  276. [12:14:41] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  277. [12:18:54] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
  278. [12:24:41] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  279. [12:24:42] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  280. [12:24:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  281. [12:32:41] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("Free at last!")
  282. [12:35:27] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  283. [12:35:28] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  284. [12:45:57] * paolo (n=paolo@tor/session/external/x-33de39e9080e0b4f) has joined #microformats
  285. [13:01:41] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  286. [13:01:42] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  287. [13:09:27] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit ()
  288. [13:09:30] <dglazkov> http://www.plagiarismtoday.com/?p=290
  289. [13:10:20] <trovster> Think I saw that yesterday, :S
  290. [13:11:07] <McNulty> missing the point somewhat isn't it?
  291. [13:11:28] <McNulty> I mean... screen scraping isn't a problem with microformats, it's part of the point isn't it?
  292. [13:11:53] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  293. [13:12:48] <trovster> Yeh, kinda.
  294. [13:13:50] <McNulty> OMFG my data's going to be machine readable!
  295. [13:26:26] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-issues&diff=0&oldid=7678 * ChrisCasciano * (+1283) 'MAY have multiple Feed elements' -- details and viability of multiple feeds -
  296. [13:28:13] <pnhChris> so someones worried about content appearing elsewhere.. but they're content is CC'd, has 30 buttons to push their content elsewhere, has 3 different feeds available... etc. etc :P
  297. [13:28:45] <pnhChris> (yeah.. i know that's got nothing to do with the arguments basis.. just find in humorous)
  298. [13:32:53] <mfbot> [[Help:Contents]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Help:Contents&diff=0&oldid=7679 * ChristopheDucamp * (+160)
  299. [13:37:14] <trovster> woah, technorati has changed!!
  300. [13:39:00] <pnhChris> indeed!
  301. [13:39:08] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  302. [13:39:09] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  303. [13:39:41] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  304. [13:39:52] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  305. [13:39:55] <pnhChris> feels a bit busy
  306. [13:40:06] <trovster> Feels Web2.0 ;)
  307. [13:40:14] <mn_francis> can't be
  308. [13:40:17] <mn_francis> no rounded corners
  309. [13:40:30] <pnhChris> theres rounded corners
  310. [13:40:33] <pnhChris> just not enough
  311. [13:40:34] <pnhChris> :P
  312. [13:40:39] <mn_francis> they're too small
  313. [13:40:43] <mn_francis> don't count :D
  314. [13:41:02] <pnhChris> http://technorati.com/faves/placenamehere
  315. [13:41:08] <qid> you also need pastel colors and giant fonts
  316. [13:41:09] <pnhChris> the one around my id isn't too small
  317. [13:41:12] <trovster> Also, shades
  318. [13:41:27] <pnhChris> i just think the sidebar is kinda.. i dunno.. busy
  319. [13:41:37] * pnhChris shrugs
  320. [13:41:51] <dglazkov> it's yahoo!
  321. [13:42:36] <mn_francis> oops, found a bug already
  322. [13:42:52] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) has joined #microformats
  323. [13:43:04] * pnhChris needs more links for more blogs
  324. [13:43:24] * pnhChris should post some silly rant about something silly and meaningless just to be a link ho
  325. [13:43:33] <pnhChris> :P
  326. [13:45:09] * pnhChris starts drafting "microformats suck" post
  327. [13:46:05] <dglazkov> you need an easier target. Like Dvorak's CSS sucks post
  328. [13:46:15] * dglazkov suggests "Internet Sucks" post
  329. [13:46:20] <trovster> Lies.
  330. [13:46:40] * chucker_ (n=chucker@p5489F709.dip.t-dialin.net) has left #microformats
  331. [13:46:44] <trovster> Total lies. The internet can't suck. I just ordered a Aerobie, with free deliver! You can't beat that!
  332. [13:46:54] <pnhChris> css does suck.. see!!!! :) http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/examples/toomanycooks_dvorakspecial.html
  333. [13:47:28] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  334. [13:47:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  335. [13:47:29] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  336. [13:50:15] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  337. [13:51:12] <pnhChris> i should do an OS X sucks
  338. [13:51:32] <pnhChris> i KNOW that'll get em coming out of the woodwork linking to me
  339. [13:51:39] <trovster> hehe
  340. [13:53:46] <pnhChris> speaking of evil.. (and totally OT) http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BRF_FALLING_MIRROR?SITE=7219&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-07-23-18-50-40
  341. [14:02:06] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  342. [14:08:35] <mfbot> [[recipe-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=recipe-examples&diff=0&oldid=7680 * DrewMcLellan * (+225) Perfect Flank Steak -
  343. [14:08:56] <drewinthehead> gotta love those example recipes
  344. [14:09:12] * drewinthehead has no idea what a flank steak is
  345. [14:10:16] <pnhChris> nice link name there :P
  346. [14:11:29] <pnhChris> see this one yet? *looks for link*
  347. [14:11:47] <pnhChris> http://flickr.com/photos/ioerror/196450968/
  348. [14:13:40] <drewinthehead> haha
  349. [14:15:06] <mfbot> [[currency-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=currency-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7681 * ChristopheDucamp * (+4399)
  350. [14:19:00] * tantek_ (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  351. [14:20:20] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  352. [14:20:43] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  353. [14:20:43] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  354. [14:20:54] * paolo (n=paolo@tor/session/external/x-33de39e9080e0b4f) Quit ("No one will drive us from the paradise that Cantor has created. (D.Hilbert)")
  355. [14:36:22] <drewinthehead> the HP ad on technorati.com at the moment is hopeless ... you can't click through on it.
  356. [14:39:01] <drewinthehead> catch a geek's attention with a sexy looking laptop, and then don't let him click through to find out more. (and i almost *never* click on ads)
  357. [14:39:48] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7682 * ChristopheDucamp * (+251) Entrée Contenu -
  358. [14:39:52] * drewinthehead hopes technorati are being paid CPM on that one ;)
  359. [14:40:14] <McNulty> hp AD?
  360. [14:40:37] * McNulty can't see any ads
  361. [14:41:12] <McNulty> oh got it
  362. [14:41:16] <McNulty> Wow that's irritating
  363. [14:42:09] <mfbot> [[blog-post-examples-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-examples-fr&diff=0&oldid=7683 * ChristopheDucamp * (+6) Entré Permaliens - typo
  364. [14:42:52] <drewinthehead> looking at it again (and actually reading the ad) it would seem that it's entirely intentional.
  365. [14:43:27] <trovster> Getting unstyled and JS errors in IE!
  366. [14:43:42] <trovster> I don't see the ad. I want to see the ad!
  367. [14:43:43] <drewinthehead> i'm now too irritated by it to bother to go search for whatever model it might be
  368. [14:45:42] <McNulty> maybe they've realised that clickthroughs aren't the be all and end all
  369. [14:46:59] <drewinthehead> yes, they've moved on to pissing people off through not letting them find out more about sexy looking laptops.
  370. [14:47:06] <drewinthehead> :P
  371. [14:47:23] <trovster> HP sell Macs now?
  372. [14:47:55] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7684 * ChristopheDucamp * (+198) Entrée Permalink -
  373. [14:50:49] <McNulty> they sell iPods...
  374. [14:51:29] <drewinthehead> sorry .. dragged the conversation off-topic ;)
  375. [14:53:56] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7685 * ChristopheDucamp * (+167) Entrée Datetimes - Création et Modified -
  376. [14:55:17] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7686 * ChristopheDucamp * (+12) Entrée Auteur -
  377. [14:56:12] <Whiskey_M> off topic is more interesting ;)
  378. [14:57:20] * Whiskey_M loves listening to local gov bods talking about things they have not the vaguest idea about, deciding to change sites which they have no ownership of and having to sit through it all
  379. [15:02:55] * briansud1 (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  380. [15:02:55] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  381. [15:04:19] <mfbot> [[xfolk]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk&diff=0&oldid=7687 * Mattsches * (+224) Implementations -
  382. [15:06:40] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7688 * ChristopheDucamp * (+385) Atom Possible vers mapping microformat(s) -
  383. [15:07:34] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  384. [15:08:02] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
  385. [15:08:02] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
  386. [15:09:12] <pnhChris> really? and all this time I thought DanC's lap had some brain of its own
  387. [15:10:57] <drewinthehead> and there was me thinking it was a rabbit, but of course that would've been DanC_lop
  388. [15:12:13] <trovster> And I thought it was DanC_lob .. actually, I won't go there.
  389. [15:12:31] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7689 * ChristopheDucamp * (+227) Possible Uses -
  390. [15:12:47] <drewinthehead> have we drained the last ounce of available humour yet? :)
  391. [15:14:04] <Whiskey_M> I am sure there could be more
  392. [15:14:10] <drewinthehead> i saw a presentation by Mark Shuttleworth yesterday about the biggest problems facing open source
  393. [15:15:15] <McNulty> was one of them 'bad puns?'
  394. [15:15:16] <drewinthehead> one of the biggies was about communication between projects and how everyone has their own bugbase, so bugs for e.g. Firefox might get logged with Mozilla, with Ubuntu, with Fedora and so on
  395. [15:16:04] <drewinthehead> and there's no way to search them all or keep track
  396. [15:17:54] <drewinthehead> so i was chatting about this with simon willison over lunch, about whether there might be a call for a microformat for bugs
  397. [15:18:14] <drewinthehead> simon had ideas about how the existing Atom spec might fit the problem more closely
  398. [15:18:49] <drewinthehead> i don't know atom too well
  399. [15:19:32] <mfbot> [[blog-post-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=blog-post-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7690 * ChristopheDucamp * (+179) Obstacles -
  400. [15:19:38] <McNulty> I suppose bug reports have subjects, authors, content and relevant tags
  401. [15:19:45] <McNulty> and then tend to have a comment thread
  402. [15:19:50] <Whiskey_M> surely the problem with community led bug reporting is the different descriptions of a bug? Even on small projects we might get the same bug reported several times which is the same bug, just reported in a completely different manner
  403. [15:20:22] <drewinthehead> i think the primary problem was just aggregating data .. knowing that a bug, any bug, had been reported
  404. [15:20:41] <Whiskey_M> that is another problem I guess
  405. [15:21:14] <drewinthehead> the different descriptions problem isn't going to go away any time soon :)
  406. [15:22:06] <drewinthehead> usually it takes knowledge of the code to be able to identify different facets of the same bug
  407. [15:22:39] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure if it's worth collecting together some examples from the wild
  408. [15:24:38] <drewinthehead> on the whole, i think post bugs are published through a small number of bug database products .. and if they were going to make changes for the benefit of interoperability then it might make more sense for them to do that through something like atom
  409. [15:26:31] <drewinthehead> i.e. it's a problem you could solve with a microformat, but i'm not totally convinced it's the best way to solve it
  410. [15:27:06] <McNulty> what's a sensible way of marking up an FAQ page? DL?
  411. [15:27:31] <Whiskey_M> would make sense
  412. [15:27:41] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  413. [15:27:44] <trovster> Totally a DL.
  414. [15:28:08] <mfbot> [[hatom-issues-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+63922)
  415. [15:28:56] <McNulty> is an answer a definition for a question then? ;-)
  416. [15:29:04] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=7691 * ChristopheDucamp * (+60) hResume -
  417. [15:29:08] <drewinthehead> i'm always nervous with DLs
  418. [15:29:11] <trovster> Answer is the definition for a question, yes.
  419. [15:29:20] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=7692 * ChristopheDucamp * (-60) hResume -
  420. [15:29:42] <Whiskey_M> It's very easy to over use a dl, but in this instance it makes sense
  421. [15:30:01] <trovster> I use DL for forms...
  422. [15:30:05] <drewinthehead> i'm not convinced (although i have used DL for FAQs myself)
  423. [15:30:09] * trovster has opened a can of whoop-ass
  424. [15:30:18] * DanC (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
  425. [15:30:18] <jibot> DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
  426. [15:30:28] <Whiskey_M> hmmm, forms? interesting....
  427. [15:30:48] <McNulty> hm
  428. [15:30:48] * drewinthehead uses tables for forms in the name of 'interactive tabular data'
  429. [15:30:57] <trovster> drewinthehead: eeew
  430. [15:31:07] <trovster> Whiskey_M: re: http://www.geekinthepark.co.uk/#comments-form
  431. [15:31:14] <drewinthehead> but only when it is tabular
  432. [15:31:14] * McNulty uses tables
  433. [15:31:34] <McNulty> if it's a column of headings and a column of values that's a 1-dimensional table surely
  434. [15:31:45] <McNulty> I haven't checked if that's terrible from a screen reader perspective
  435. [15:32:02] <drewinthehead> DL is for terms and their definitions
  436. [15:32:26] <drewinthehead> i'm not happy that an answer is a 'definition' of a question
  437. [15:32:54] <trovster> What about quoting the specs about conversation?
  438. [15:33:11] <trovster> Also, if it's just definition/description, then it shouldn't be in the spec as it's far to restrictive.
  439. [15:33:15] <drewinthehead> that example is widely accepted as a poor one :)
  440. [15:33:22] <Whiskey_M> drew, can you think of another element that would convey they same semantic relevence?
  441. [15:33:23] <McNulty> it's very easy to use DL as a generic 'pairs of stuff' list but I'm not convinced that's completely correct
  442. [15:33:36] <mfbot> [[hatom-faq-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-faq-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+738)
  443. [15:33:42] <drewinthehead> how about just a regular list with headings?
  444. [15:33:53] <trovster> Well, I disagree. If there is a pair, then, IMO a DL works. What else would you use?
  445. [15:34:18] <trovster> No, as you'd have one heading, then one item (most key+pair value)
  446. [15:34:36] <McNulty> the example of the DL being used for marking up conversation is explicitly mentioned in the spec
  447. [15:34:38] <Whiskey_M> Headings would probably work out better with SEO (dependent on the questions), but wouldn't have the same relevance IMHO
  448. [15:34:44] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  449. [15:34:44] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  450. [15:35:26] <drewinthehead> the example is the spec is poor.
  451. [15:35:43] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=7693 * ChristopheDucamp * (+81)
  452. [15:35:57] <drewinthehead> DLs shouldn't be used for marking up conversation
  453. [15:36:04] <McNulty> it's been heartily embraced by the microformats community though surely
  454. [15:36:25] <McNulty> Tantek had a great example in one of his presentations using CITE/Blockquote with DL didn't he?
  455. [15:36:30] <McNulty> Or am I misremembering
  456. [15:36:52] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit ("Leaving")
  457. [15:37:00] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  458. [15:37:02] * tantek_ scrolls up
  459. [15:37:30] <drewinthehead> the spec says "Definition lists vary only slightly from other types of lists in that list items consist of two parts: a term and a description."
  460. [15:37:36] <mn_francis> yes, he did
  461. [15:37:43] <mn_francis> from Web Essentials last year
  462. [15:37:49] <mn_francis> Elements of Semantics or something like that
  463. [15:37:54] <drewinthehead> you can't take the two-parts bit without accepting the term and description bit
  464. [15:37:59] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  465. [15:38:35] <McNulty> I think strictly that's true but the common use case seems to be for 'lists of pairs of stuff'
  466. [15:38:59] <trovster> That's what I use it for.
  467. [15:39:09] <drewinthehead> people commonly do all sorts of odd things.
  468. [15:39:17] <mn_francis> doesn't make it right
  469. [15:39:28] <tantek_> 1. ouch on the HP ad - please join #technorati to give feedback on new technorati.com home page
  470. [15:39:46] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has left #microformats
  471. [15:39:47] <Phae> Surely the clue is in the name? A list of items with definitions?
  472. [15:39:50] <tantek_> 2. bug reports can be posted *anywhere* using hReview and simply tagging your hReview with "bugreport"
  473. [15:40:29] <tantek_> 3. No I did not use DL to mark up a conversation. I showed first the *wrong way* with DL purely for illustration, then the right way with <ol> <li> <cite> and <blockquote>
  474. [15:40:34] <mn_francis> tagging an hreview ... nice
  475. [15:40:35] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  476. [15:40:35] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  477. [15:40:45] <McNulty> aaah, I did misremember then - thanks!
  478. [15:40:54] <drewinthehead> hReview.. the swiss army knife microformat ;)
  479. [15:40:59] <tantek> a bug report is just a special hReview mn_francis, that's the point
  480. [15:41:10] <mn_francis> I know, I just love it :)
  481. [15:41:19] <McNulty> presumably it's a negative review.
  482. [15:41:36] <Whiskey_M> depends whether it's a bug, or an unexpected "feature"
  483. [15:41:46] <tantek> g2g, bbiab
  484. [15:42:17] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  485. [15:46:54] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  486. [15:47:17] <drewinthehead> i'll have to study the hReview spec closer .. i'm not entirely convinced the common semantics of a bug report can be captured in a review
  487. [15:47:58] <mn_francis> maybe there's a difference between a full-on bugzilla style bug report and just "hey, I noticed that the HP ad doesn't work on the new technorati homepage"
  488. [15:47:58] <mn_francis> ?
  489. [15:48:06] <drewinthehead> datapoints like expected behaviour and behaviour experienced are common amongst nearly all bug tools that i've researched
  490. [15:48:47] <drewinthehead> yes, there's a difference, but possibly only in the maturity of the report
  491. [15:49:08] <mn_francis> mmm, true
  492. [15:49:10] <drewinthehead> lots of bug reports start off simple but over time get fleshed out to be useful
  493. [15:49:23] <mn_francis> but maybe that's all Tantek wants for technorati :D
  494. [15:49:32] <drewinthehead> :P
  495. [15:52:26] <mn_francis> And to go back in time for a brief moment, I want a t-shirt that says "My other t-shirt is a definition list."
  496. [15:53:13] <McNulty> A job just landed on my desk that involves basically huge lists of contact info
  497. [15:53:27] <McNulty> I suppose I get an excuse to use all this microformats stuff
  498. [15:53:27] <Phae> heh
  499. [15:53:49] <Whiskey_M> lol - good for something then ;)
  500. [15:54:45] <Whiskey_M> Mc, I got a hm earlier on the xsd stuff - any further thoughts?
  501. [15:55:33] <McNulty> Whiskey_M - not yet. It's an interesting idea but like I said I can't really see what current problem it solves
  502. [15:55:35] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  503. [15:55:44] <McNulty> but who am I to say :-)
  504. [15:56:16] <Whiskey_M> to be able to read any microformat by machine without having to write a specific parser
  505. [15:57:57] <drewinthehead> ... and a pony.
  506. [15:58:05] <McNulty> OK so say I've never heard of hCard, and I'm looking at a page that has it embedded. What are you intending to do?
  507. [15:58:17] <McNulty> My parser looks at the profile...
  508. [15:59:55] <McNulty> It learns all kinds of stuff about the microformat
  509. [16:00:04] <Whiskey_M> probably much the same, look for the XMDP document, see if it has an XSD reference then parse the XHTML based upon the XSD into a netural XML format - there after bob's your uncle and XSL is your aunt
  510. [16:00:12] <McNulty> but then still at the end of the day, it has to know what an hCard is to do anything useful surely.
  511. [16:00:25] <McNulty> But I can just XSL the XHTML can't I?
  512. [16:01:29] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  513. [16:01:29] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  514. [16:01:43] <Whiskey_M> As an example, geo can be either nested long and lat, or can use title to have long and lat with a semi-colon. Without a human reading the spec and knowing that's the case how does a parse engine know?
  515. [16:02:01] <McNulty> okay but what is the parse engine going to do with that knowledge?
  516. [16:02:09] <McNulty> That's the leap that I'm not getting
  517. [16:02:28] <drewinthehead> and those are the easy rules ...
  518. [16:02:40] <Whiskey_M> what do you want it to do?
  519. [16:02:49] <McNulty> Hey this is your idea ;-)
  520. [16:03:27] <drewinthehead> from my change notes of stuff added to hkit recently: The new fn=n optimisation says that if n isn’t specified and n cannot be implied from fn, then fn can be assumed to be equal to “fn n” and fn may therefore contain n’s sub-items.
  521. [16:03:32] <drewinthehead> that was a fun one
  522. [16:03:57] * DanC wonders about moving office hours from Wed to Thu this week; briansud1 ? (ryan doesn't seem to be around)
  523. [16:03:58] * briansud1 nods
  524. [16:03:59] <McNulty> Like, my parser's figured out the syntax of geo, but it still won't have a clue of the semantics or what it can do with them
  525. [16:04:13] <briansud1> ryan isn't around, not sure where he is....
  526. [16:04:34] <Whiskey_M> To get an app to be able to do something useful you need to know what you're dealing with - I understand that one. But if you can write one parse engine for every microformat surely that's got to make life easer?
  527. [16:04:36] <briansud1> DanC, i;m WAY behind on MF stuff too, this is day #5 without power in my city
  528. [16:04:54] <DanC> ?!
  529. [16:05:08] <McNulty> Whiskey_M - doesn't the fact they're in XHTML mean they're already in a format we can parse pretty easily?
  530. [16:05:13] <DanC> whois briansud1
  531. [16:05:41] <briansud1> briansud1 is briansuda... there is a lock on that at the moment
  532. [16:06:14] <Whiskey_M> only if you know what's in there. Take the hCard example where: <a class="fn url" href="...">name</a> how do you know that fn refers to the element text and url the href?
  533. [16:07:00] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  534. [16:08:56] <McNulty> so you're talking about transforming it into <fn>name</fn><url>...</url> in some standard schema
  535. [16:09:20] <McNulty> but then to do anything useful you have to know what the hCard fields mean, so you could have just XSL'ed the XHTML ;-)
  536. [16:09:48] <McNulty> I can see what you're getting at, but I dunno if it would make any of the common services people are running at the moment easier?
  537. [16:12:53] <Whiskey_M> I guess the thing is that with a schema defined for the microformat to get information from the page devs can stop worrying about how the mf is formatted, and start dealing with the raw data instead.
  538. [16:13:05] <dglazkov> Whiskey_M: are you looking for general, auto-discovering, self-learning microformats parser?
  539. [16:14:20] <Whiskey_M> dg, if we drop the auto-learning, because I can't see how a parser will ever understand what it's got then yes. Although not looking, considering the potential of adding an extra step behind xmdp to allow this to happen
  540. [16:14:47] <Whiskey_M> or to see if anyone is interested in adding that extra step then offering my time to help ;)
  541. [16:14:55] <dglazkov> what's the benefit of such a parser?
  542. [16:15:02] <dglazkov> and who benefits?
  543. [16:15:25] <Whiskey_M> what is the benefit of any semantisism?
  544. [16:15:53] <Whiskey_M> sorry
  545. [16:16:23] <dglazkov> there's no benefit in any semanticism :) I think I am getting straight to this point :)
  546. [16:16:34] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  547. [16:17:16] <dglazkov> microformats parser has to understand _specific_ formats (hCard, for instance).
  548. [16:17:21] <dglazkov> not _any_ formats
  549. [16:17:37] <Whiskey_M> why? Only if you want to render it
  550. [16:17:49] * imajes (n=imajes@cpc2-ware3-0-0-cust617.lutn.cable.ntl.com) has joined #microformats
  551. [16:19:12] <Whiskey_M> if there were a machine readable ruleset behind each microformat then any microformat could be read from a page. Interject that with say an author or a volunteer providing xsl to turn that mf into RDF or perhaps an accessible version of the content everyone wins out
  552. [16:20:13] <McNulty> why doesn't the volunteer write an XSL taht transforms the XHTML...
  553. [16:21:16] <Whiskey_M> that they could do
  554. [16:22:38] <Whiskey_M> they would have to know for each mf where in the XHTML the data is located, where it might be for different options etc. though
  555. [16:23:42] <McNulty> And you want to abstract that process out into a standardised XHTML->XML parser
  556. [16:23:56] <McNulty> so then I can write something that spits out vCard, WML, whatever
  557. [16:24:11] <Whiskey_M> pretty much
  558. [16:24:39] <McNulty> so it's the little rules like sometimes using @title from an ABBR that you'd be capturing
  559. [16:24:57] <Whiskey_M> yup
  560. [16:25:35] <McNulty> aah ok I see where you're coming from now
  561. [16:25:40] <McNulty> yeah go for it
  562. [16:25:41] <McNulty> :-)
  563. [16:25:43] <Whiskey_M> bring the XHTML which has the HTML render logic in there to a "pure" XML data stream ready for re-render to any other format
  564. [16:26:05] <McNulty> So you'd be picking out the specific bits that are part of the microformat
  565. [16:26:09] <McNulty> and ditching the rest
  566. [16:26:21] <Whiskey_M> Trying to as best as possible
  567. [16:26:36] <McNulty> normalising it
  568. [16:27:13] <Whiskey_M> well putting together schema logic no a method of normalisation is possible without having in-depth knowledge of the mf
  569. [16:28:01] <Whiskey_M> sorry, that didn't make sense in the slightest ;)
  570. [16:28:45] <McNulty> With some knowledge of the structure of the microformat, you could take an XHTML document and take out all the semantics that aren't part of the microformat
  571. [16:28:53] <Whiskey_M> I'm initially interested in putting together a schema format where the mf format can be described, so a parse engine can be written from that
  572. [16:29:00] <McNulty> right
  573. [16:29:10] <McNulty> so a parser can say 'this is part of the mF, that is not'
  574. [16:29:20] <Whiskey_M> as an idea yes
  575. [16:29:35] <Whiskey_M> here is the data, there was the rest of the document
  576. [16:29:41] <McNulty> and get to auto-generate intermediate step documents to take care of th first step of mF parsing
  577. [16:29:49] <Whiskey_M> what the data then is isn't initially so important
  578. [16:30:24] <Whiskey_M> I think so, although that could be read two ways ;)
  579. [16:30:53] <McNulty> I can certainly see how, if I wanted to write a parser to transform an mF into some other format having the first half of the process being done for me and just having to transform an intermediate document into my target format would be handy
  580. [16:31:12] <Whiskey_M> You've got me in one
  581. [16:31:26] <McNulty> interesting idea.
  582. [16:33:02] <McNulty> and your first step is coming up with a way of formally specifying microformat semantics
  583. [16:35:19] <McNulty> I guess that would enable simpler validation etc.
  584. [16:35:21] <Whiskey_M> I don't know whether it is of interest or not, but if you have a reference for normalising microformats it would be a logical place to put re-render links... i.e. putting a descriptor behind XFN (and sorry I haven't played so I'm probably wrong again), that can auto parse to foaf: -- 1 hours worth of work for someone a mf, everyone with xfn gets foaf cross over
  585. [16:37:15] <Whiskey_M> yup, that is the first step
  586. [16:39:02] <Whiskey_M> there may be some potiential benefits to internationalisation yet, but I'm still new at microformats and haven't read the wiki properly there
  587. [16:39:10] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ()
  588. [16:40:55] <McNulty> hm, home time for me
  589. [16:41:21] <McNulty> Whiskey_M - interesting stuff, I'll look forward to seeing how/if it progresses ;-)
  590. [16:41:27] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
  591. [16:43:01] <mfbot> [[xfolk-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xfolk-fr&diff=0&oldid=7694 * ChristopheDucamp * (+142) Dans la jungle - add serendipity
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  594. [16:56:57] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-hints-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+5491)
  595. [16:59:33] <mfbot> [[Template:out-of-date-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:out-of-date-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+174)
  596. [17:00:24] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints-fr&diff=0&oldid=7695 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3) {{out-of-date-fr}}
  597. [17:00:40] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints-fr&diff=0&oldid=7696 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) Nomenclature -
  598. [17:01:11] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints-fr&diff=0&oldid=7697 * ChristopheDucamp * (+9) Nomenclature -
  599. [17:01:32] <mfbot> [[hatom-hints-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-hints-fr&diff=0&oldid=7698 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Trucs hAtom -
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  601. [17:06:23] <mfbot> [[book-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/book-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1231)
  602. [17:10:22] <lgonze> http://gonze.com/weblog/story/7-23-6
  603. [17:10:49] <mfbot> [[citation-examples-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/citation-examples-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+11316)
  604. [17:14:15] <mfbot> [[book-formats-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/book-formats-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+512)
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  608. [17:18:57] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/book-brainstorming-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+9603)
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  614. [17:25:12] * DanC scrolls up, notes discussion of using XSLT to extract RDF form microformats
  615. [17:25:21] <DanC> the GRDDL WG is starting up to do just that, FYI
  616. [17:26:03] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7699 * ChristopheDucamp * (+282) Contexte -
  617. [17:26:44] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7700 * ChristopheDucamp * (+10) Other features of a book -
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  619. [17:29:48] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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  621. [17:30:34] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  622. [17:30:35] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  623. [17:30:57] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  624. [17:31:10] <mfbot> [[book-brainstorming-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=book-brainstorming-fr&diff=0&oldid=7701 * ChristopheDucamp * (+171) Sections d'un livre -
  625. [17:35:41] <mfbot> [[to-do-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do-fr&diff=0&oldid=7702 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3587)
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  627. [17:44:09] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  629. [17:46:02] <mfbot> [[wiki-formats-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=wiki-formats-fr&diff=0&oldid=7703 * ChristopheDucamp * (+0) Résumé -
  630. [17:51:13] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  631. [17:56:52] <tantek> greetings
  632. [17:57:29] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  633. [17:57:29] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  642. [18:42:23] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  643. [18:57:25] <mfbot> [[hreview-creator-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7704 * RyanKing * (+76) added notes about linking to mail archives
  644. [18:57:46] <mfbot> [[hcard-creator-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7705 * RyanKing * (+25) note about mail archives
  645. [19:29:29] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  648. [20:00:24] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  649. [20:00:25] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
  650. [20:15:58] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  651. [20:15:58] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  652. [20:30:59] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  653. [20:31:30] * bewest wonders if Hixie is around
  654. [20:31:55] * bewest wishes Hixie would publish a non-svg version of the web authoring report
  655. [20:32:19] <bewest> there's several people I'd like to show the report to, but they don't have svg viewers
  656. [20:45:44] <tantek> pngs would be nice
  657. [20:53:22] <pnhChris> tantek: see my summary /draft of hatom multiple feed issues.. does that jive with where you thought we left things?
  658. [20:54:08] <pnhChris> http://microformats.org/wiki/hatom-issues#.27MAY_have_multiple_Feed_elements.27_--_details_and_viability_of_multiple_feeds
  659. [20:54:46] <pnhChris> .. or anyone else...
  660. [20:56:54] <_fil_> holidays!
  661. [20:56:57] * _fil_ (n=fil@www.rezo.net) has left #microformats
  662. [20:57:32] <pnhChris> i wish!
  663. [20:57:49] * pnhChris stares at notebook full of tasks
  664. [20:58:16] <drewinthehead> holidays are for wimps.
  665. [20:58:19] <Phae> :<
  666. [20:58:22] * Phae is on holiday.
  667. [20:58:35] * drewinthehead is bitter about not being able to go on holiday
  668. [20:58:43] <Phae> This is my first proper break this year.
  669. [20:58:46] <drewinthehead> Phae is a wimp, but a nice one.
  670. [20:58:48] <Phae> hehe
  671. [21:00:13] <drewinthehead> actually, i went to sxsw in March, so that counts as recently-holidayed
  672. [21:00:24] <Phae> oh cool
  673. [21:00:30] <Phae> I've had the odd day here and there.
  674. [21:00:56] * kingryan just got back from a few days of holiday
  675. [21:01:09] <Phae> I have a few days next month too, for the eden sessions.
  676. [21:01:11] <drewinthehead> ah, we thought you were quiet, kingryan ;)
  677. [21:01:41] <kingryan> yeah, that's what happens when I'm not connected to the interweb
  678. [21:02:12] <drewinthehead> is that at the Eden Project, Phae?
  679. [21:02:17] <Phae> It is indeed.
  680. [21:04:03] <drewinthehead> i found myself browsing a gig list today and wishing it was hCalendared
  681. [21:04:10] <Phae> heh
  682. [21:04:58] <drewinthehead> when this is pervasive life will be better.
  683. [21:05:07] <drewinthehead> and i'll not miss so many gigs.
  684. [21:05:24] <Phae> I haven't been to a gig for ages. Used to be what I did in my free time when I was still at University.
  685. [21:13:52] <drewinthehead> matt biddulph did an interesting mashup of (i think) gig listings and last.fm logs to give a personalised list of gigs you might like to attend
  686. [21:14:28] <Phae> oh, that sounds cool.
  687. [21:14:35] <Phae> I assume it takes note of location.
  688. [21:15:53] <drewinthehead> i'm trying to find it again ... wondering where the gig data comes from and if it's scraped
  689. [21:16:26] <Phae> Dunno. I need to update my last.fm plugin anyway. They just upgraded apparently, but I hear the software is bloaty.
  690. [21:16:54] <kingryan> have you guys seen sonicliving.com ?
  691. [21:17:04] <Hixie> bewest: why don't they have SVG viewers? Firefox is available on all platforms.
  692. [21:17:19] <kingryan> it scrapes a bunch of ticket-buying sites and also has an app that uploads the artists from your iTunes library
  693. [21:17:32] * kingryan just remembered that sonicliving is still in private beta, whoops
  694. [21:17:38] <Phae> oh, I don't use iTunes.
  695. [21:17:44] <drewinthehead> ah, sounds like a similar idea, kingryan
  696. [21:18:15] <kingryan> well, Phae, that part isn't neccessary
  697. [21:18:23] <Phae> Oh.
  698. [21:18:23] <kingryan> you can add bands to your watchlist via the site
  699. [21:18:34] <Phae> Not so automated goodness though.
  700. [21:18:39] <kingryan> right
  701. [21:18:50] <kingryan> they should add last.fm support
  702. [21:18:55] <Phae> Yeah, definitely.
  703. [21:19:02] <drewinthehead> what's life without automated goodness?
  704. [21:19:05] <kingryan> and get out of private beta
  705. [21:19:14] <Phae> Not so good?
  706. [21:19:14] <kingryan> drewinthehead: its called work
  707. [21:19:22] <Phae> I'm forgetful, so I need a bit of automated goodness.
  708. [21:19:53] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  709. [21:23:15] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
  710. [21:25:47] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7706 * RyanKing * (-278) bugs fixed in hg
  711. [21:28:52] <drewinthehead> found it ... (not for 'announcing' yet, but ok to share here I'm told) http://london.forgigmenot.com/gigs
  712. [21:30:23] * Phae tries it.
  713. [21:30:53] <Phae> It's a bit outdated. I'm getting listings for May and June.
  714. [21:31:04] <Phae> Oh. dUH. read. "gigs i've missed" :(
  715. [21:31:21] <Phae> Nothing coming up. Smart though.
  716. [21:41:44] <drewinthehead> apparently a nice design is coming soon, and then it'll be launching proper
  717. [21:42:07] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  718. [21:42:13] <Phae> Well, now I've grabbed my RSS, I won't need to go back
  719. [21:42:14] <drewinthehead> i should get into using last.fm
  720. [21:42:36] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  721. [21:42:39] <Phae> I've had an account since it was just audioscrobbler
  722. [21:42:56] <Phae> Although I reset it about 2 years ago
  723. [21:43:09] <drewinthehead> if the rss marked up the events in hCalendar, then you could do the whole Endo thing (if anyone uses that)
  724. [21:43:37] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  725. [21:44:13] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7707 * RyanKing * (+229) added clarification notes
  726. [21:44:52] * drewinthehead needs to updates his Dreamweaver extensions
  727. [21:46:27] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure if anyone's actually using the DW stuff, but it's important that it exists i think
  728. [21:46:38] <Phae> The one for MFs?
  729. [21:47:17] <drewinthehead> yeah
  730. [21:47:32] <Phae> I went to grab it the other day, and got distracted, and never did in the end. The last update on it wasn't that recent, anyway.
  731. [21:49:26] <drewinthehead> yeah, it's a few months old now
  732. [21:50:16] <drewinthehead> a lot of it is based off the online creators that kingryan develops
  733. [21:50:24] * Phae nods.
  734. [21:50:59] <drewinthehead> i should CC license the icons i drew, come to think of it
  735. [21:51:00] <Phae> It'd make life a bit quicker for doing contact pages, but atm, I still like marking stuff up by hand just because it's teaching me more.
  736. [21:51:12] <drewinthehead> yes, i agree on that
  737. [21:51:31] * kingryan always marks mf stuff up by hand
  738. [21:52:17] <drewinthehead> i need to add hReview too
  739. [21:52:30] <Phae> I'm always a bit wary of automated tools for stuff like that. I don't like to be disconnected from code.
  740. [21:52:49] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7708 * RyanKing * (+112)
  741. [21:53:08] <kingryan> me too, and I wrote the automated tools :D
  742. [21:53:17] <kingryan> s/and/because/
  743. [21:53:32] <Phae> Yeah, but you're helping those people who really don't want to look at code that much.
  744. [21:53:47] <Phae> Odd people.
  745. [21:55:08] <drewinthehead> heh
  746. [21:55:45] <mfbot> [[hcard-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7709 * RyanKing * (+149) added link to email archive
  747. [21:56:16] <drewinthehead> i used DW a lot for building large table-based static sites, but returned to hand coding when i started learning css layouts in 2001 or so
  748. [21:56:49] <drewinthehead> and to my amazement, found that i really enjoyed coding by hand ... i'd forgotten how much fun it was
  749. [21:56:50] <Phae> I'm actually a recent DW convert. Used to only use a text-editor. Was a bit worried that DW would start making things harder.
  750. [21:57:03] <Phae> I only use it in code view, but I find the auto complete things handy for when I'm having blonde days.
  751. [21:58:51] <drewinthehead> i think something like briansuda's cheat sheet would be useful inside a DW panel
  752. [21:59:14] <Phae> Yeah. I have his cheat sheet stuck to the side of my computer at work.
  753. [22:00:14] <briansuda> Phae, be sure you have the most current, i corrected a few errors
  754. [22:00:17] <mfbot> [[hreview-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7710 * RyanKing * (+185) can't reproduce this bug, see email
  755. [22:00:18] <Phae> Having it to hand in DW would make life quick though.
  756. [22:00:24] * drewinthehead was thinking of getting it tattooed
  757. [22:00:27] <Phae> Uhm.. okay. I last grabbed it maybe a month ago?
  758. [22:00:34] <drewinthehead> .. once the errors are ironed out ;)
  759. [22:00:35] <Phae> heh drew.
  760. [22:01:24] <Phae> You'd have to have it tattooed upside down on your stomach or something.
  761. [22:01:29] <Phae> because it'd be a pain to use.
  762. [22:02:28] <mfbot> [[hreview-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7711 * RyanKing * (+176) added notes requesting clarification
  763. [22:02:31] <drewinthehead> that'd be ... weird
  764. [22:02:43] * briansuda is not liable for any tattoo mistakes!
  765. [22:02:45] <Phae> heh
  766. [22:03:11] <drewinthehead> perhaps hCard on the left inner-forearm, hCalendar on the right ;)
  767. [22:03:25] <Phae> You caused a JAWS madness the other day Brian. Dubbed "the loop of suda".
  768. [22:03:46] <Phae> heh
  769. [22:05:09] <kingryan> where would you put rel-tag?
  770. [22:05:14] <kingryan> back of your hand?
  771. [22:05:27] <Phae> I can see this devolving.
  772. [22:05:52] * kingryan already saw it devolve in his head
  773. [22:06:37] <Phae> :)
  774. [22:06:38] * tantek (n=tantek@65.91.82.56) has joined #microformats
  775. [22:06:38] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  776. [22:06:54] <drewinthehead> we'd better behave now .. tantek's here :)
  777. [22:06:58] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  778. [22:07:11] <Phae> we were!
  779. [22:07:43] <drewinthehead> :P
  780. [22:09:06] <drewinthehead> i reckon i have room for hReview on the sole of my left foot
  781. [22:09:25] <Phae> Getting tattooed on the soles of your feet though. :/
  782. [22:09:31] <drewinthehead> ouch
  783. [22:09:47] <drewinthehead> i think the real problem arises when people grab me for reference
  784. [22:09:51] <Phae> haha
  785. [22:10:11] <drewinthehead> i think we'd better scratch the whole idea ;)
  786. [22:10:16] <Phae> Agreed.
  787. [22:10:22] <Phae> Maybe we should just get you some rub-on jobbies.
  788. [22:10:24] <drewinthehead> (boom tish)
  789. [22:10:29] * briansuda reads through today's IRC log
  790. [22:11:22] <drewinthehead> temporary tattoos would probably suit briansuda too
  791. [22:11:51] <tantek> greetings
  792. [22:11:57] <Phae> Good evening.
  793. [22:13:21] <drewinthehead> hi tantek
  794. [22:13:57] <tantek> hello Phae and drew
  795. [22:14:11] <briansuda> temporary tattoos would make nice schwag
  796. [22:14:20] <drewinthehead> oh, nice thought
  797. [22:14:23] <tantek> yes indeed
  798. [22:14:26] <Phae> Good for conferences etc.
  799. [22:14:36] <Phae> d.construct :)
  800. [22:14:37] <briansuda> SxSW had those "i am accessible" tattoos
  801. [22:15:13] <Phae> That's almost a bad chatup.
  802. [22:15:56] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
  803. [22:16:24] <kingryan> or a good chatup, if that works for you
  804. [22:16:32] <Phae> ;)
  805. [22:16:43] * drewinthehead wonders if there's such a thing
  806. [22:17:04] <Phae> In the right crowd, it'd totally work.
  807. [22:17:59] <drewinthehead> perhaps a tat with XFN values
  808. [22:18:11] <Phae> heh
  809. [22:18:14] <drewinthehead> so that you can place them on people you meet
  810. [22:18:38] <drewinthehead> collect rel="met"s
  811. [22:19:44] <kingryan> rel="touched" ?
  812. [22:20:13] <KevinMarks> ryan and tantek are way ahead of you wiht the transparent technorati stickers
  813. [22:20:27] <kingryan> oh, keep me out of this
  814. [22:20:28] <tantek> (ahem)
  815. [22:20:39] <kingryan> I don't apply the stickers, I only egg tantek on to do it
  816. [22:20:43] <kingryan> (then take photos)
  817. [22:20:56] <Phae> Oh, I see! I think I have seen some of the photos.
  818. [22:21:02] <tantek> i always ask before applying to stickers, well at least to people
  819. [22:21:02] <deanero> drewinthehead: all the subpop.com tour dates will be hcalendared soon
  820. [22:21:13] <briansuda> i see that ryan king has a fun club http://flickr.com/groups/ryanking/
  821. [22:21:15] <tantek> deanero - that will rock (so to speak)
  822. [22:21:27] <Phae> I've seen it. Ryan friended me the other day.
  823. [22:21:34] <kingryan> *cough* http://www.flickr.com/groups/tantekgetstheladies/
  824. [22:21:36] <kingryan> *cough*
  825. [22:21:37] * deanero reads lasts hour's talk
  826. [22:21:38] <Phae> hah
  827. [22:21:47] <Phae> I think you both milk it.
  828. [22:21:47] * tantek blushes
  829. [22:21:48] <briansuda> it is sort of like "Andre the Giant has a posse"
  830. [22:23:20] <drewinthehead> http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/chicksdigmicroformats
  831. [22:23:36] <Phae> heh
  832. [22:25:02] <kingryan> indeed
  833. [22:26:33] * boneill (i=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) Quit ("blah.")
  834. [22:26:37] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@67-40-166-22.mpls.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  835. [22:26:38] <deanero> is anyone coming to portland this week?
  836. [22:26:40] <tantek> i prefer: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/microformatstshirt
  837. [22:26:56] <Phae> :D
  838. [22:26:59] <tantek> Ian Kallen will be there representing from Technorati
  839. [22:27:04] <drewinthehead> 225 .. we're doing well
  840. [22:27:06] <tantek> if you mean OSCON
  841. [22:27:07] <deanero> mechanical bull?
  842. [22:27:14] <deanero> yes, i do :)
  843. [22:27:25] <Phae> Some people show more than once though.
  844. [22:27:43] <tantek> deanero, not mechanical bull, but giant rocking horse
  845. [22:27:48] <drewinthehead> yeah, bigstylee
  846. [22:28:07] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  847. [22:28:18] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  848. [22:29:55] <deanero> ahh. giant rocking horse = a party must
  849. [22:32:05] * schepers (n=schepers@66-194-222-226.static.twtelecom.net) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  850. [22:34:25] <tantek> yes, saw that you got a shirt Phae - is there a shipper in the UK now?
  851. [22:35:11] <Phae> Nope, I have a friend in NY who got it for me.
  852. [22:36:25] <drewinthehead> i found a possible shipper, but didn't really follow it up
  853. [22:36:50] <Phae> It would be good.
  854. [22:38:39] <drewinthehead> yes ... i need to get my arse into gear and check them out
  855. [22:39:02] <drewinthehead> but for now .. it's late. night all.
  856. [22:39:07] <Phae> Night Drew.
  857. [22:39:15] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthebed
  858. [22:42:41] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  859. [22:43:17] * lgonze (n=chatzill@nat1.santamonica.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  860. [22:43:17] <jibot> lgonze is Lucas Gonze and blogs at http://www.gonze.com/
  861. [22:43:50] <bewest> Hixie: because ops just installed FC4 on everyone's machine. FC4 makes it hard to get firefox 1.5 (doesn't work out of the box). you have to do something silly like yum install /path/to/somegcclib.so.1. which doesn't work for users that don't know how to override ops' "fix" to show yum where the real repository configs are.
  862. [22:44:12] <Hixie> what do they have?
  863. [22:44:15] <Hixie> firefox 1.0?
  864. [22:44:28] <bewest> most have IE, firefox 1.07 or mozilla
  865. [22:44:38] <Hixie> firefox 1.0 has a whole slew of unpatched serious security bugs
  866. [22:44:57] <Hixie> so if you want them to upgrade to firefox 1.5, i recommend saying you've found a security bug :-)
  867. [22:47:50] <bewest> Hixie: btw, do you have any plans to continue that report to track usage over time?
  868. [22:48:40] <Hixie> i have plans to perform further reports to back up the decisions made at the whatwg
  869. [22:48:52] <Hixie> i don't have any plans to do any particular research for research's sake
  870. [22:53:53] <Phae> Right. Bedtime. Night guys.
  871. [22:53:55] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  872. [22:58:54] <bewest> Hixie: if you are looking for your bias, I think you've just spelt it out... however ongoing reports allow you to track changes in authorship patterns, as opposed to what was authored. such a thing would tell you rate of compliance over time...
  873. [22:59:21] <bewest> Hixie: like... are people getting any better at authoring? more compliant or less compliant? which in turn would allow you to better craft future standards
  874. [22:59:42] <tantek> well maybe
  875. [22:59:49] <tantek> some of it may be too delayed
  876. [22:59:56] <tantek> if you are focusing on the "mass of data"
  877. [22:59:57] <bewest> yes, delayed
  878. [22:59:59] <bewest> no doubt
  879. [23:00:04] <tantek> too much inertia
  880. [23:00:11] <tantek> you won't find sharply rising trends that way
  881. [23:00:15] <briansuda> the tricky thing is that the the sample set might not be the same either... more/less pages
  882. [23:00:43] <briansuda> i know 1 billion is a pretty good sample set, but there is a margin of error
  883. [23:01:41] <bewest> any repsonsible ongoing research would solve sample set problems
  884. [23:01:46] * bewest makes wild assumptions with great ease
  885. [23:02:35] <Hixie> bewest: yes, i'm biased towards solving immediate problems in the development in HTML5
  886. [23:03:24] <Hixie> bewest: given the massive cost of running this research in the first place, i can't afford to just be off doing random studies
  887. [23:03:44] <bewest> that's a good reason, I suppose :-)
  888. [23:03:59] <Hixie> bewest: google are kind enough to see that research for making new standards is good for the web as a whole, i don't think they'd be as happy if i started just randomly looking for anything
  889. [23:04:22] <Hixie> we _are_ talking about scanning over a billion files at a time here
  890. [23:04:29] <bewest> yeah
  891. [23:05:48] <bewest> seems kind of like Galileo recording sunspots though
  892. [23:06:00] <Hixie> yeah, except i'm not a scientist
  893. [23:06:13] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  894. [23:06:13] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  895. [23:06:14] <Hixie> and i don't work for google's R&D lab
  896. [23:07:06] <Hixie> however, be my guest -- wasn't it you who said you also had this data you could scan? :-)
  897. [23:07:46] <bewest> well... potentially I do
  898. [23:07:55] <bewest> but I lack proper tools and know-how :-)
  899. [23:08:11] * Hixie lacked tools and know-how when he joined google too :-)
  900. [23:08:39] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ()
  901. [23:08:57] <bewest> oh I haven't given up... I'm just exploring all avenues available, which generally include learning how to do it myself AND bugging other people who will listen
  902. [23:09:46] <bewest> anyway, if the SVG were converted to PNG or something, it'd make the latter option a lot easier :-)
  903. [23:09:48] <bewest> maybe I'll do it myself
  904. [23:10:11] * bewest checks out the reproduction notices on the report
  905. [23:10:43] <Hixie> i used SVG because i could read SVG
  906. [23:10:56] <Hixie> and converting SVG to PNG is hard
  907. [23:11:28] * pnhChris hits CMD-SHIFT-4
  908. [23:12:01] * bewest wonders what cmd-shift-4 does
  909. [23:12:24] <Hixie> pnhChris: that doesn't scale
  910. [23:12:30] <pnhChris> Hixie: I know :P
  911. [23:12:43] <Hixie> i have better things to do in my life than that :_P
  912. [23:13:11] <pnhChris> me too
  913. [23:13:40] * pnhChris hopes he didn't confuse bewest too much
  914. [23:14:36] <pnhChris> (gives you a rectangle to draw around a part of the screen to take a screenshot
  915. [23:14:46] <pnhChris> .. saves in PNG if you'd like
  916. [23:15:06] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  917. [23:16:15] <pnhChris> its a poor mans SVG-> PNG converter
  918. [23:16:25] <pnhChris> or anything -> PNG converter
  919. [23:16:38] <tantek> or you could use Eric Meyer's CSS Charts
  920. [23:16:46] <tantek> that works in far more browsers than SVG
  921. [23:16:49] <tantek> and is like 1000x faster
  922. [23:16:51] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
  923. [23:16:55] <Hixie> if someone has an SVG->PNG converter that actually works, btw, i'm interested in it
  924. [23:17:02] <Hixie> but in my experience none of them are compliant enough
  925. [23:17:02] <tantek> and CSS charts scale
  926. [23:28:16] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  927. [23:30:31] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  928. [23:30:51] <KevinMarks> ask in #webkit - iirc webkit top of tree does SVG, and making OSX emit pngs is pretty easy
  929. [23:32:05] <pnhChris> hmmm
  930. [23:43:03] * tantek_ (n=tantek@65.91.82.56) has joined #microformats
  931. [23:43:45] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  932. [23:43:46] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  933. [23:44:06] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit ()
  934. [23:44:59] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  935. [23:45:20] <lgonze> what should a publisher do about the profile who can't insert a definition into the dcoument head? is there now consensus on that?
  936. [23:52:54] <tantek_> lgonze, not yet, but the current proposal I am considering is enabling it through <a rel="profile" href="profileURL">
  937. [23:53:03] <tantek_> as an addition to XMDP
  938. [23:53:21] <lgonze> right
  939. [23:53:41] <lgonze> my instinctive reaction to that is positive
  940. [23:59:27] * tantek (n=tantek@65.91.82.56) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

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