IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:00:06] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
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  5. [00:14:05] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  6. [00:32:21] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("zzz")
  7. [00:40:19] <lgonze> what makes one microformat parser more successful than another? what design features would you recommend or warn against?
  8. [00:41:38] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7712 * RyanKing * (-353) removin some old to-do's
  9. [00:41:40] <kingryan> passing the tests helps
  10. [00:41:53] <kingryan> (and helping write more tests is good, too :D)
  11. [00:48:47] <lgonze> :)
  12. [00:49:01] <lgonze> um, so, well...
  13. [00:49:03] <lgonze> which tests?
  14. [00:50:44] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  15. [00:52:30] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/tests/
  16. [00:52:43] <kingryan> and more in progress here http://hg.microformats.org/tests
  17. [00:52:52] <kingryan> so far only hcard and hcalendar
  18. [00:54:32] <lgonze> very cool.
  19. [00:55:07] <lgonze> ...was just thinking about automated testing because I re-read Mark Pilgrim's source and noticed the test harness
  20. [00:55:44] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ("zzzz")
  21. [00:58:52] <KevinMarks> in the feedparser?
  22. [01:00:39] <lgonze> in http://diveintomark.org/projects/greasemonkey/hcard/hcard.user.js
  23. [01:04:14] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
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  26. [01:22:21] * jakedahn (n=jakedahn@67-40-166-22.mpls.qwest.net) Quit ()
  27. [01:40:13] <davecardwell> I'm currently in the process of developing a series of parsers, starting with hcard
  28. [01:41:17] <davecardwell> should that hcard library take care of the parsing of adr's, or should I send that off to be parsed by a seperate adr library?
  29. [01:44:33] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  32. [01:56:55] * lgonze (n=chatzill@nat1.santamonica.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006050817]")
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  34. [01:57:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  35. [01:57:07] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  36. [01:59:56] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  37. [01:59:56] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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  43. [02:34:43] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  44. [02:35:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  45. [02:36:05] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  46. [02:45:27] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7713 * Tantek * (+422) added in a couple of to-dos that were just dropped which had not been completed, more details
  47. [02:47:00] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl081-240-149.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  48. [02:47:00] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  52. [02:58:28] <jibot> Jonnay is a programmer, graphic designer and musician. He blogs at http://blog.jonnay.net and his music is at http://www.jonnay.net
  53. [03:13:48] * DanC_lap (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
  54. [03:13:48] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
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  61. [04:12:39] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  62. [04:12:40] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  63. [04:13:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  64. [04:52:09] * Enric (n=Enric@dsl001-150-127.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  65. [04:52:10] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  72. [06:08:34] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
  73. [06:08:35] <jibot> Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
  74. [06:11:52] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  75. [06:11:53] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  76. [06:18:40] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
  77. [06:18:55] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
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  79. [06:22:53] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  80. [06:33:55] <mfbot> [[to-do]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7714 * ChristopheDucamp * (+345) [fr: add french localization web site - iconography in french ?]
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  86. [07:53:03] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Success)
  87. [08:03:50] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  88. [08:03:51] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  89. [08:04:05] <Whiskey_M> morning trovster
  90. [08:04:18] <trovster> mornin'
  91. [08:14:29] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) Quit ("http://devbee.com/")
  92. [08:18:35] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  93. [08:18:35] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  94. [08:21:27] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
  95. [08:21:28] <jibot> mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
  96. [08:23:38] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  101. [08:59:54] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  102. [08:59:55] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  103. [09:12:18] * drewinthebed (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  104. [09:15:49] * boneill (i=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) has joined #microformats
  105. [09:15:49] <jibot> boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
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  108. [09:54:06] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  109. [09:54:06] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  110. [09:54:08] <McNulty> lo
  111. [09:57:20] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  112. [09:57:20] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  113. [09:57:48] <drewinthehead> mornin'
  114. [09:58:35] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  117. [10:40:23] <mfbot> [[hcard-creator-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-creator-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1150)
  118. [10:41:04] <mfbot> [[hcard-creator-feedback-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard-creator-feedback-fr&diff=0&oldid=7715 * ChristopheDucamp * (-3) typo
  119. [10:42:19] <Whiskey_M> is there any case when placing multiple meta data elements within an attribute they are not delimited with a ; ?
  120. [10:46:16] <McNulty> class?
  121. [10:47:19] <Whiskey_M> nope, I was more thinking <abbr class="geo" title="123;123">London</abbr>
  122. [10:47:51] <McNulty> drewinthehead - your hAtom transcoder marks the RSS output as 'experimenta' but doesn't say which version of RSS?
  123. [10:47:53] <McNulty> I presume 2.0
  124. [10:48:24] <drewinthehead> i'll look
  125. [10:48:44] <drewinthehead> 2.0
  126. [10:48:53] <drewinthehead> i'm using this: http://atom.geekhood.net/
  127. [10:49:05] <McNulty> aha
  128. [10:49:36] <drewinthehead> docs are here: http://tools.microformatic.com/help/xhtml/hatom/
  129. [10:49:54] <McNulty> mm that's what I was looking at
  130. [10:50:10] <McNulty> I just noticed it didn't specify the format and RSS is a mess.
  131. [10:53:55] * plaes|zZzz is now known as plaes
  132. [10:57:49] <drewinthehead> yeah, it's a bit of a mess
  133. [10:58:32] <McNulty> have you seen IE7 isn't going to support application/xml+xhtml?
  134. [10:58:35] <drewinthehead> to be honest i didn't spend that long searching for atom to rss XSLs .. there may be better ones out there
  135. [10:58:42] <drewinthehead> yup
  136. [10:59:44] <McNulty> And their Accepts header doesn't specify text/html anywhere so you can't content-negotiate as well as you might.
  137. [10:59:44] <McNulty> gah
  138. [11:00:56] <drewinthehead> if you know of a better atom2rss ... i'd be glad to try it out
  139. [11:01:13] <McNulty> I didn't mean the output was a mess (though it is)
  140. [11:01:32] <McNulty> I mean RSS0.9x is quite different to RSS2.0 so it's worth specifying which type you're talking about
  141. [11:01:40] <McNulty> I'm being picky, ignore it
  142. [11:03:22] <drewinthehead> ah, i see
  143. [11:03:35] <drewinthehead> i'll update the page to state RSS 2.0
  144. [11:04:22] <drewinthehead> atom is at 1.0 isn't it?
  145. [11:04:35] <McNulty> yes
  146. [11:05:51] <trovster> Atom1.0 and RSS2.10
  147. [11:05:54] <trovster> 2.0 even
  148. [11:06:26] <drewinthehead> updated, McNulty
  149. [11:08:04] <McNulty> cool :-)
  150. [11:27:46] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7716 * Trovster * (-7874) Examples in the wild -
  151. [11:28:00] <trovster> -7874?!
  152. [11:29:02] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=7717 * Trovster * (+114) Examples in the wild -
  153. [11:29:38] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=7718 * Trovster * (+127) Examples in the wild -
  154. [11:31:39] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=7719 * Pixelsebi * (+176) Examples in the wild -
  155. [11:50:54] <drewinthehead> trovster: looks like you broke the hcard page
  156. [11:54:26] <drewinthehead> not your fault .. it's got too long
  157. [11:55:41] <Phae> It looks okay to me.
  158. [11:56:13] <drewinthehead> it got truncated: http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7716
  159. [11:56:48] <Phae> ah
  160. [11:57:01] <drewinthehead> it's happened before .. once the page gets over 32k (I think)
  161. [11:57:16] <drewinthehead> needs splitting up into multiple pages
  162. [11:59:07] <drewinthehead> i think only admins can roll it back, so we'll need to get tantek or kingryan to take a look at it .. unless KevinMarks can?
  163. [12:01:47] <trovster> oh shit!
  164. [12:01:54] <trovster> I make one or two changes and break it!
  165. [12:02:13] * drewinthehead sings: trovster broke the wiki, trovster broke the wiki!
  166. [12:03:04] <drewinthehead> don't sweat it, trovster, it's been happening. not your fault.
  167. [12:03:17] <Phae> heh
  168. [12:03:30] <trovster> :)
  169. [12:03:45] <mn_francis> don't tell him that!
  170. [12:03:49] <mn_francis> ruin the fun!
  171. [12:04:18] <Whiskey_M> http://www.redantdesign.com/hcard/take2.asp <-- for anyone that's interested in the slightest ;-)
  172. [12:04:45] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  173. [12:05:18] <Phae> You can't nest hFeeds, right?
  174. [12:06:21] <drewinthehead> i'm pretty sure you can't
  175. [12:06:34] <Phae> Just checkin'.
  176. [12:07:25] <trovster> don't think so, that's why a new site I'm developing wasn't working
  177. [12:07:29] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  178. [12:07:29] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  179. [12:07:42] <Phae> Yeah, I've just come up against accidentally nesting them.
  180. [12:07:52] <Phae> Because of where I've chosen to put the hfeed for main entry.
  181. [12:08:50] <trovster> The way to get around that (that's my problem too) is not have the hFeed on the main entry, as it's kinda pointless. And only have it for the comments (coz if they parse the permalink, that's what they're gonna want, right?)
  182. [12:08:56] <drewinthehead> Whiskey_M: hOrg?
  183. [12:09:06] <Phae> I suppose so.
  184. [12:09:35] <Phae> Is that correct? I thought it *should* have hfeed, or it takes the page as it... so I ought to add it if I can.
  185. [12:09:52] <Phae> I think I just need to think around my problem. Stupid wordpress.
  186. [12:09:57] <trovster> Well, it would have hfeed for the comments, just not the permalink article.
  187. [12:09:59] <drewinthehead> right .. add it if you can
  188. [12:10:14] <Phae> I was just checking that nesting was bad :)
  189. [12:10:26] <Whiskey_M> drew, a quick bit of rubbish to control nesting of elements - names are an odd one
  190. [12:10:43] <drewinthehead> ah, ok
  191. [12:13:09] <trovster> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=nissan&near=Penkridge,+UK&radius=0.0&latlng=52723909,-2115869,13255768573563903394 -- should mark those up as hCards
  192. [12:13:55] <drewinthehead> Whiskey_M: how do you deal with stuff like type/value being optional for email?
  193. [12:14:26] <Whiskey_M> it's optional? Back to the description - I would imagine minOccurs=0
  194. [12:14:29] <Whiskey_M> though
  195. [12:15:18] <drewinthehead> same for tel etc
  196. [12:15:25] <Phae> gah
  197. [12:17:33] <Whiskey_M> misunderstood that one - I've uploaded after changing the e-mail, I have left the value as mandatory though when e-mail is used
  198. [12:37:56] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) has joined #microformats
  199. [12:37:56] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  200. [12:48:13] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  201. [12:48:32] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ()
  202. [12:49:27] <mfbot> [[xmdp-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xmdp-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7720 * Richard Conyard * (+58) Follow up -
  203. [13:11:34] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
  204. [13:11:34] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
  205. [13:26:54] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
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  207. [13:53:46] * drewinthehead does a code dance
  208. [13:54:14] <drewinthehead> i just wrote an xFolk profile for hKit ... took approximately 2 mins and worked first time
  209. [13:56:09] <drewinthehead> that's the first time i've actually tried it with anything other than hCard
  210. [13:57:29] <trovster> Ace. You're da man
  211. [13:59:33] <drewinthehead> admittedly, xFolk isn't the most challenging of profiles
  212. [14:00:38] <trovster> Well, that's not the point!
  213. [14:02:59] <drewinthehead> true enough :)
  214. [14:08:37] <drewinthehead> anyone here know xFolk well?
  215. [14:09:03] <drewinthehead> i'm trying to work out if the text of a taggedlink is important
  216. [14:09:46] <AdamCraven> 123
  217. [14:10:37] <drewinthehead> ah, looks like it is
  218. [14:13:36] <drewinthehead> AdamCraven: 123?
  219. [14:16:23] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  220. [14:19:25] * jrodgers (n=jrodgers@sherlock.uwaterloo.ca) has joined #microformats
  221. [14:20:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  222. [14:20:26] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  223. [14:28:55] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  224. [14:28:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  225. [14:28:55] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  226. [14:31:34] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  227. [14:31:35] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  228. [14:31:35] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  229. [14:32:46] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  230. [14:32:47] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  231. [14:33:28] <drewinthehead> briansuda: do you have the ability to rollback wiki pages?
  232. [14:33:56] <briansuda> yes i do, but i've never used that power yet, what's up?
  233. [14:34:15] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  234. [14:34:36] <drewinthehead> the hcard page got truncated when <abbr title="trovster">somebody</abbr> edited it
  235. [14:34:56] <briansuda> do you have a link?
  236. [14:35:00] <drewinthehead> that page has gone over the 32k 'safe' point
  237. [14:35:01] <drewinthehead> sur
  238. [14:35:04] <drewinthehead> sure
  239. [14:35:16] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7716
  240. [14:35:45] <briansuda> http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&curid=1002&diff=0&oldid=7716&rcid=9627
  241. [14:35:52] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  242. [14:35:55] <briansuda> ok, let me try to roll it back
  243. [14:36:07] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7721 * Brian * (+7874) Reverted edit of Trovster, changed back to last version by Tantek
  244. [14:36:19] <briansuda> i think that got it.
  245. [14:36:28] <drewinthehead> looks right. thanks!
  246. [14:36:29] <briansuda> +7874, that's alot restored
  247. [14:36:52] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) has joined #microformats
  248. [14:37:01] <drewinthehead> yes, it was about that much it was minus last time, which was how we spotted the problem
  249. [14:37:27] <drewinthehead> i think this is going to keep happening until that page is broken down into smaller pages
  250. [14:38:30] <drewinthehead> should we create hcard-exampes-wild or something?
  251. [14:38:40] * drewinthehead hates naming wiki pages
  252. [14:39:44] <briansuda> i think it is both a length issue and a browser issue
  253. [14:41:31] <drewinthehead> yes, the former triggering the latter
  254. [14:43:41] <drewinthehead> i wonder if this is why we have 'Examples' and 'New Examples' sections ...
  255. [14:44:30] <drewinthehead> still doesn't help if someone edits the entire page rather than a section
  256. [14:48:23] <mfbot> [[books-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=books-ja&diff=0&oldid=7722 * Vant * (+229) translation complete
  257. [14:50:03] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-239-243-066.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  258. [14:50:03] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  259. [14:50:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  260. [14:50:24] <mfbot> [[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7723 * Vant * (-6) Timezone changed (due to my return)
  261. [14:51:25] <mfbot> [[irc-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc-ja&diff=0&oldid=7724 * Vant * (-6) IRCにいる人々 -
  262. [15:01:35] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
  263. [15:03:12] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@ool-44c1e1dc.dyn.optonline.net) has joined #microformats
  264. [15:03:13] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  265. [15:03:32] * pnhChris smiles at jibot
  266. [15:04:02] * hcp (n=Miranda@svs15.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) has joined #microformats
  267. [15:05:22] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7725 * ChristopheDucamp * (+230)
  268. [15:06:23] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback&diff=0&oldid=7726 * ChristopheDucamp * (-230) revert
  269. [15:07:13] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback-fr]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hcalendar-creator-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1650) [fr: translation hcalendar-creator-feedback]
  270. [15:07:50] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-creator-feedback-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-creator-feedback-fr&diff=0&oldid=7727 * ChristopheDucamp * (-10) Rapport de Bugs - typo
  271. [15:17:31] <mfbot> [[hreview-creator-feedback-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-creator-feedback-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+1825)
  272. [15:20:22] <trovster> So, I'm not allowed to ammend the hCard page?
  273. [15:20:54] <drewinthehead> you're probably alright with just a section, but not the whole page
  274. [15:21:03] <trovster> I did just a section, I thought
  275. [15:21:07] <drewinthehead> a warning appears right at the top if it's too long
  276. [15:21:16] <drewinthehead> but that's easy to miss
  277. [15:34:39] * hcp (n=Miranda@svs15.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
  278. [15:34:57] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
  279. [15:47:11] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
  280. [15:47:12] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  281. [15:47:21] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  282. [15:47:26] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
  283. [15:47:51] <McNulty> I have some contacts I'd like to mark up with hCard, but I'm not sure what to do with the 'secretary name' and 'secretary tel' fields
  284. [15:48:10] <McNulty> I could do it as a separate hCard, or just put the secretary as an alternate tel type?
  285. [15:51:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@ool-44c1e1dc.dyn.optonline.net) Quit ()
  286. [15:56:10] <McNulty> or does hCard somehow cover proxy contacts and I've missed it
  287. [15:57:13] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  288. [16:01:24] <McNulty> aha, vCard has an Agent property that allows a nested hCard, is this something that transfers across to hCard?
  289. [16:02:01] <Whiskey_M> not more to try and put in the xsd ;-)
  290. [16:03:06] * chucker (n=chucker@p5489FD31.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
  291. [16:04:14] * deanero_ (n=dean@dsl254-024-154.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
  292. [16:04:37] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  293. [16:04:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  294. [16:04:49] <McNulty> It seems to allow nested vCards for, e.g. secretaries. I dunno if any hCard implementations do this at the moment
  295. [16:04:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  296. [16:05:25] <tantek> AGENT allows that yes
  297. [16:05:54] <McNulty> tantek - so I would do <div class="vcard agent"> inside an existing vCard?
  298. [16:06:05] <tantek> yes
  299. [16:06:15] <tantek> check hcard-examples
  300. [16:06:21] <tantek> i believe there is an example of it there
  301. [16:06:21] <McNulty> Aha, excellent
  302. [16:07:57] <McNulty> I am considering listing the people separately and then including theagents into their boss' cards as well
  303. [16:08:30] <tantek> yes that makes sense
  304. [16:09:46] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  305. [16:11:54] * lisppaste4 (n=lisppast@common-lisp.net) has joined #microformats
  306. [16:16:06] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
  307. [16:21:05] <drewinthehead> tantek, we had another instance of long page truncation on the wiki - the hcard page. (now rolled back)
  308. [16:22:38] <tantek> doh
  309. [16:23:41] <tantek> trovster, which browser were you using?
  310. [16:23:49] <trovster> Firefox.
  311. [16:23:53] <tantek> version?
  312. [16:24:02] <trovster> 1.5.0.4
  313. [16:24:05] <tantek> hmm....
  314. [16:24:15] <tantek> I've been using Camino without difficulty.
  315. [16:24:27] <tantek> odd because their engines are supposed to be nearly the same
  316. [16:24:47] <trovster> Indeed, but Camino doesn't like my image-replaced submit buttons!
  317. [16:25:04] * tantek doesn't like FF1.5.x because they got rid of ctrl-tab for switching tabs.
  318. [16:25:12] <trovster> but is it a browser issue?
  319. [16:25:16] <drewinthehead> form widgets are one of the differences in Camino, trovster
  320. [16:25:16] <tantek> yes
  321. [16:25:22] <trovster> ctrl+tab still works for me
  322. [16:25:31] <tantek> on OSX?
  323. [16:25:43] <trovster> Oh, dunno ;)
  324. [16:26:47] * McNulty didn't realise ctrl-tab switched tabs
  325. [16:30:52] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  326. [16:30:53] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  327. [16:35:41] <Whiskey_M> http://www.redantdesign.com/hcard/take2.asp <-- still more than a work in progress, but we have xmdp! :)
  328. [16:46:31] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit ("Peace and Protection 4.22")
  329. [16:50:02] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  330. [16:50:02] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  331. [16:53:29] * evanpro (n=evanpro@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro) has joined #microformats
  332. [16:53:29] <jibot> evanpro is Evan Prodromou, info at http://wikitravel.org/en/User:Evan
  333. [16:58:03] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
  334. [17:00:45] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  335. [17:06:17] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
  336. [17:06:37] <deanero> so appropriating "author" from hatom and using an hcard org would make sense for musical artists in the context of describing their works, right?
  337. [17:07:14] <tantek> not necessarily deanero
  338. [17:07:26] <tantek> best to follow the process
  339. [17:07:35] <tantek> check out the work on media-info
  340. [17:08:16] <tantek> media/music related info/formats have been particularly challenging
  341. [17:08:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  342. [17:09:12] <deanero> i'll for sure work on/with that as it develops, but i need to publish real soon... :)
  343. [17:09:23] <deanero> so... o=in a pinch? :)
  344. [17:09:52] * deanero isn't sure where that o= came from
  345. [17:10:00] <Whiskey_M> lol
  346. [17:15:22] <deanero> would it make sense in this type of context: http://www.subpop.com/features/release.html ?
  347. [17:15:35] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  348. [17:15:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  349. [17:16:21] <deanero> and/or am i even using it correctly?
  350. [17:17:36] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) has joined #microformats
  351. [17:17:37] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  352. [17:19:06] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  353. [17:21:40] * deanero just realized i was talking to himself
  354. [17:21:49] <Whiskey_M> it's normal
  355. [17:22:11] <deanero> my tenses are all screwy too- irc madness
  356. [17:26:17] <deanero> kingryan: you worked on some of the media-metadata stuff?
  357. [17:26:26] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  358. [17:26:32] <kingryan> a bit
  359. [17:27:40] <Whiskey_M> time for a cig :)
  360. [17:28:08] <deanero> it seems like it'd be easier to solve the problem of whole albums
  361. [17:28:19] <deanero> rather than track by track metadata
  362. [17:28:29] <deanero> to start
  363. [17:28:53] <deanero> plus, that's my problem domain...
  364. [17:34:16] * deanero_ (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  365. [17:35:05] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  366. [17:35:05] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  367. [17:35:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  368. [17:35:56] <Whiskey_M> wb tantek
  369. [17:39:56] <Whiskey_M> http://intranet2k3:370/hCard/take2.asp <-- I've done a whole heap of making it up as I go along on this stuff, if anyone could give it a once over to make sure I'm not been completely stupid then I'd be grateful. If I have it even close my next steps after tidy would be to write a generic xhtml / microformats parse XSL
  370. [17:40:13] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  371. [17:40:14] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  372. [17:40:38] <kingryan> Whiskey_M: is that supposed to be an accessible URL?
  373. [17:40:48] <Whiskey_M> damn
  374. [17:41:16] <Whiskey_M> http://www.redantdesign.com/hcard/take2.asp <-- that should be
  375. [17:43:33] <kingryan> correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to create an xsd for hcard?
  376. [17:43:40] <kingryan> or for an xml mapping of hcard?
  377. [17:43:58] <tantek> i think it is an xsd for hcard
  378. [17:44:12] <tantek> and more generically, a way to encode xsd in xmdp
  379. [17:44:19] <tantek> right whiskey_m?
  380. [17:44:30] <tantek> see xmdp-brainstorming for more details on this brainstorm
  381. [17:44:30] <Whiskey_M> both, the xsd with mapping to xhtml to allow straight XML to be pulled from microformats on a page
  382. [17:45:36] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  383. [17:45:44] <Whiskey_M> the idea / trick being to be able to do it for any microformat with a similar xsd available
  384. [17:46:21] * kingryan is reading the markup
  385. [17:46:28] <kingryan> how does this compare to grddl ?
  386. [17:46:46] <Whiskey_M> I did put some odd / bad things in there as an idea though -- semantic extension etc.
  387. [17:46:58] <Whiskey_M> probably more than similar
  388. [17:48:03] <kingryan> I notice you also changed the spelling of properties to the british spelling
  389. [17:48:08] <kingryan> ie 'honourific'
  390. [17:48:33] <Whiskey_M> ahh, my mistake - only get to spend any time on this after work so somewhat tired
  391. [17:48:33] <tantek> yeah, that's a problem
  392. [17:49:32] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  393. [17:49:32] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
  394. [17:51:16] * vant_ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
  395. [17:51:40] <Whiskey_M> u's dropped, s'es replaced with z's
  396. [17:55:10] <Whiskey_M> Looking at GRDDL it would appear that I've added an extra step, rather than translating the source directly the xsd should allow the semantic info to be normalised and then you'd translate
  397. [18:00:43] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
  398. [18:00:44] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  399. [18:08:59] <Whiskey_M> it's getting far too close to 12 hours in the office so I'm outta here. I'll check logs if anyone wants to beat me around the head in my absence, or point out that I've missed something very stupid
  400. [18:09:02] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
  401. [18:38:03] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  402. [18:38:04] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  417. [19:42:09] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=7728 * Sardinia * (+236)
  418. [19:51:49] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  419. [19:51:50] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  420. [19:52:57] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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  427. [20:46:27] <mfbot> [[to-do]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=to-do&diff=0&oldid=7729 * DanC * (+90) review/revise playlist notes
  428. [20:46:51] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-074-239-243-066.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
  429. [20:47:23] <mfbot> [[User:DanC]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=User:DanC&diff=0&oldid=7730 * DanC * (+16) link todo list
  430. [20:51:22] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("bye")
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  432. [20:54:33] * ChanServ sets mode +o KevinMarks
  433. [21:04:37] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit ("leaving")
  434. [21:05:36] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  435. [21:10:50] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7731 * KorvinAmber * (+49756)
  436. [21:11:25] <tantek> crap
  437. [21:11:36] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7732 * Tantek * (-49756) Reverted edit of KorvinAmber, changed back to last version by Ant
  438. [21:12:02] <mfbot> [[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:KorvinAmber" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
  439. [21:25:19] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
  440. [21:25:43] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  441. [21:25:48] <mfbot> [[hresume]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=7733 * Tantek * (+395) move new wordpress plugin implementation to Implementations section, created Examples with problems section, cleaned up footer a bit to be more like hCard
  442. [21:30:30] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) has joined #microformats
  443. [21:30:30] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  444. [21:51:14] <DanC> hmm... mediawiki support for openid seems to be maturing. http://www.openidenabled.com/software/mediawiki
  445. [21:51:32] <DanC> who set up the microformats wiki? was that Ryan?
  446. [21:51:48] <kingryan|away> I don't think it was me
  447. [21:51:52] <kingryan|away> I think kragen did it
  448. [21:51:54] * kingryan|away is now known as kingryan
  449. [21:52:11] <DanC> jibot, what's kragen's email address?
  450. [21:52:31] <DanC> kragen?
  451. [21:52:37] <kingryan> kragen sitaker
  452. [21:52:39] <DanC> jibot, kragen?
  453. [21:52:47] <DanC> jibot, help?
  454. [21:52:55] <kingryan> ?define kragen
  455. [21:53:27] <DanC> this guy? http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/
  456. [21:53:30] <kingryan> ?whois kragen
  457. [21:53:30] <jibot> Nobody has defined kragen yet
  458. [21:53:36] <kingryan> yeah
  459. [21:53:45] <kingryan> I don't think he's at commercenet anymore, though
  460. [21:53:52] <kingryan> (which was his involvement with mf.org)
  461. [21:53:59] <DanC> oh
  462. [21:54:05] <kingryan> I guess I'm probably the person to talk to about sysadmin stuff
  463. [21:54:39] * DanC is on a jihad to make sure every production system at W3C has at least two people who grok it
  464. [21:55:13] * deanero (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
  465. [21:55:32] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has left #microformats
  466. [21:55:38] <DanC> maybe I should try it on dm93.org before I ask microformats.org to do it
  467. [21:55:39] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  468. [21:55:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
  469. [21:55:47] <DanC> replya...
  470. [21:55:48] <DanC> maybe I should try it on dm93.org before I ask microformats.org to do it
  471. [21:56:37] <DanC> Server: Apache/2.0.53 (Ubuntu) DAV/2 SVN/1.1.1 PHP/4.3.10-10ubuntu4.1 mod_ssl/2.0.53 OpenSSL/0.9.7e
  472. [21:56:55] <DanC> hmm... that doesn't tell me what version of mediawiki
  473. [21:57:03] <DanC> (though it gives the version of just about everything else!)
  474. [21:57:37] <bewest> who grok it?
  475. [21:57:39] <kingryan> http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Version
  476. [21:57:47] <bewest> what do you mean grok it?
  477. [21:58:07] <DanC> I mean people who can't say "fred's on vacation; I can't help you with that until he gets back" ;-)
  478. [21:58:37] <kingryan> SPOF
  479. [21:58:59] <DanC> ah... http://microformats.org/wiki/Special:Version ... nice
  480. [21:59:00] <KevinMarks> de-spoffing
  481. [21:59:57] <DanC> yes, anti-SPOF... I think complete pair programming is too much to ask of the W3C systems guys, but something close to there. i.e. only N-2 people get to say "I have no idea how that crazy thing works"
  482. [22:00:01] <drewinthehead> bewest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grok
  483. [22:00:10] <bewest> I think I know what grok means
  484. [22:00:26] <bewest> just confused on what it means to grok a production system
  485. [22:00:35] * bewest reads the article anyway
  486. [22:00:46] <kingryan> to be able to fix or upgrade it without breaking things?
  487. [22:01:06] <bewest> drewinthehead: microformatics is yours right?
  488. [22:01:15] <drewinthehead> right
  489. [22:01:18] <DanC> right. without fear of breaking things, that is. it's inevitable that they will actually break it, but they'll fix it right after ;-)
  490. [22:01:23] <bewest> drewinthehead: can run xslt stuff on there?
  491. [22:01:27] <kingryan> right, DanC
  492. [22:01:34] <drewinthehead> yes, bewest
  493. [22:01:35] <kingryan> "without fear of the unknown"
  494. [22:01:36] <bewest> drewinthehead: I think I'd like to write something that does gdata -> microformats
  495. [22:01:45] <drewinthehead> cool
  496. [22:01:51] <bewest> drewinthehead: but I'd like to make it available in a way that is consistent with other tools
  497. [22:02:04] <bewest> was thinking about python, but then I always realize it should be xslt problably
  498. [22:02:10] <drewinthehead> great .. happy to host it if you'd like
  499. [22:02:14] <bewest> ok cool
  500. [22:02:39] * DanC considers pointing bewest at grddl... maybe not today...
  501. [22:02:45] <bewest> oh griddl
  502. [22:02:49] <bewest> been meaning to look at that
  503. [22:02:55] <bewest> been popping up on my radar
  504. [22:02:58] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
  505. [22:03:07] <DanC> see http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view "GRDDL Data Views: Getting Started, Learning More"
  506. [22:03:12] <bewest> DanC: you familiar with any of the mit projects?
  507. [22:03:14] <kingryan> so, I'm starting work on a test suite for hreview parsing....
  508. [22:03:25] <bewest> DanC: I saw simile which seems to be part of the same group as you? CSAIL or something?
  509. [22:03:38] <kingryan> and I'm trying to decide what format to put the control version of the data
  510. [22:03:41] <DanC> yes, simile is not far from DIG, which I'm a member of
  511. [22:03:46] <bewest> ah dig
  512. [22:03:51] <kingryan> for hcard we have vcard; hcalendar, icalendar
  513. [22:04:09] <bewest> that simile stuff is really interesting... I'm particularly interested in that timeline viewer
  514. [22:04:10] <kingryan> so, I was thinking about using JSON or YAML with hReview, since we don't have a RFC format
  515. [22:04:12] <kingryan> thougths?
  516. [22:04:14] <kingryan> thoughts*
  517. [22:04:32] <KevinMarks> XOXO?
  518. [22:04:38] <bewest> would like to make an interface that dynamically pipes hCalendars -> simile's timeline
  519. [22:04:49] <DanC> JSON would prolly work for me... though I'd prefer RDF. Danny A did some relevant work. http://micromodels.org/profiles/hreview
  520. [22:04:55] <bewest> JSON++
  521. [22:04:59] <KevinMarks> is that too recursive
  522. [22:05:04] <kingryan> KevinMarks: then we need to get xoxo parsers for everyone
  523. [22:05:07] <kingryan> (and xoxo tests?)
  524. [22:05:23] <kingryan> DanC: I'll be writing this by hand, so RDF--
  525. [22:05:27] * KevinMarks has them fro python & php
  526. [22:05:34] <DanC> bewest, have you seen the tabulator? it takes arbitrary RDF calendar foo and puts it on the simile timeline.
  527. [22:05:44] <KevinMarks> but yes, lets do that too
  528. [22:05:45] <kingryan> I know, KevinMarks, but that still another depenency
  529. [22:05:45] <tantek> KevinMarks, not until you resolve the xoxo parsing issues we have talked about
  530. [22:05:49] <bewest> hmmm
  531. [22:05:51] <bewest> interesting
  532. [22:05:56] <KevinMarks> JSON seems like a good intermediate
  533. [22:06:00] <tantek> yes
  534. [22:06:05] <tantek> JSON seems to have a lot of uptake
  535. [22:06:07] <bewest> so maybe a hCalendar -> RDF calendar foo?
  536. [22:06:39] <hober> (incf json)
  537. [22:06:43] <DanC> is there a handy JSON pretty-printer? else diff is hard to look at
  538. [22:07:11] <DanC> you can pretty-print JSON structures using pprint.pprint from the python standard library, but I'm not sure if any pythonisms leak in.
  539. [22:07:32] <KevinMarks> sounds like a JSON to XOXO handiness
  540. [22:07:32] <bewest> drewinthehead: microformatics would be good for a uformat translator or something... I've been thinking of a website that has a whole bunch of these things... uformat <-> gdata, uformat <-> RDF, et cet.. ad nauseum
  541. [22:07:52] <DanC> re tabulator timeline support, see http://dig.csail.mit.edu/issues/tabulator/issue29
  542. [22:08:02] <KevinMarks> OK, lets get the xoxo stuff checked in with test cases, then add testcases for the issues we still have
  543. [22:08:17] <bewest> if those translators were in place, we could start building neat interfaces that pipe everything onto a map, or onto a timeline
  544. [22:08:26] <bewest> which is the part I'm really interested in
  545. [22:08:30] <kingryan> pipes++
  546. [22:08:32] <tantek> KevinMarks, up to you to drive it
  547. [22:08:34] <kingryan> tubes--
  548. [22:08:36] <DanC> what's the hypothesis of a xoxo test? "item 4 is 'abc'"?
  549. [22:08:43] <bewest> kingryan: yeah, I've been using the word pipes a lot, but people get confused
  550. [22:08:48] <DanC> and is xoxo the same "shape" as JSON?
  551. [22:08:51] <tantek> DanC, a lot of it has to do with the human-friendly shorthands
  552. [22:08:59] <kingryan> DanC: xoxo is shaped more like xml
  553. [22:09:03] <kingryan> or opml
  554. [22:09:08] <tantek> XOXO is a generic nested list / outlines format for humans first, data structures second
  555. [22:09:12] <KevinMarks> depends how you look at it
  556. [22:09:17] <tantek> nope
  557. [22:09:20] <tantek> per the principles
  558. [22:09:26] <DanC> more like xml... hmm... what I like about JSON is that you can have a list of numbers without naming them. [1 2 3]
  559. [22:09:31] <tantek> we're not compromising on that one
  560. [22:09:39] <tantek> if you want machines first, you've got XML
  561. [22:09:47] <tantek> no need to reinvent XML ;)
  562. [22:10:17] <KevinMarks> <ol class="xoxo"><li>1</li><li>2</li><li>3</li><ol>
  563. [22:10:26] <DanC> bewest, re "everything on a map or onto a timeline" you really need to check out the tabulator
  564. [22:10:52] <bewest> damn it's already done?
  565. [22:10:53] <bewest> :-(
  566. [22:10:54] <DanC> KevinMarks, then xoxo _is_ more like JSON than XML. You can't say [1 2 3] in XML.
  567. [22:10:56] <KevinMarks> I see that XOXO and JSON should be isomorphic
  568. [22:10:56] <bewest> I mean :-)
  569. [22:10:59] <KevinMarks> Right
  570. [22:11:11] <KevinMarks> I'm agreeing wiht you adn disagreeing with Ryan
  571. [22:11:32] <DanC> ah.
  572. [22:12:02] <KevinMarks> attention.xml is the OPML-alike
  573. [22:12:09] <DanC> hmm... JSON distinguishes between 1 and "1". I doubt xoxo does that.
  574. [22:12:20] <tantek> right, XOXO is untyped
  575. [22:12:29] <KevinMarks> not currently, but the REST stuff has a suggestion on how to
  576. [22:12:33] <tantek> because guess what, most humans don't need explicit typing
  577. [22:12:39] <DanC> does the difference between 1 and "1" show up in hReview? I doubt it.
  578. [22:12:47] <tantek> DanC, be more specific
  579. [22:12:51] <tantek> in what property?
  580. [22:13:10] <KevinMarks> http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes
  581. [22:13:20] <KevinMarks> so could add those as classes to XOXO
  582. [22:13:42] <DanC> we got onto "what format? JSON? xoxo?" because somebody (ryan?) is starting on hReview tests. so if the difference between 1 and "1" matters in hReview, JSON is likely to work better than xoxo
  583. [22:13:49] * deanero (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
  584. [22:13:59] <kingryan> DanC: I don't think it matters
  585. [22:14:03] <kingryan> (in hreview)
  586. [22:14:14] <kingryan> we have couple of fields that are numbers, but they're always numbers
  587. [22:14:19] <tantek> right
  588. [22:14:29] <tantek> all fields in hReview are deterministically of a single type
  589. [22:14:34] <DanC> oh my. (re http://microformats.org/wiki/rest/datatypes )
  590. [22:14:47] <tantek> DanC, you're on the microformats-rest list right?
  591. [22:14:56] <DanC> no. well, I skim the archive now and then.
  592. [22:15:22] * DanC is pretty conservative about subscribing to lists
  593. [22:16:40] <DanC> "We recommend using PHP 4.4.x or greater" vs "PHP (http://www.php.net/): 4.3.10-10ubuntu4.1". darn.
  594. [22:17:49] <DanC> isn't everybody else fed up with managing 232394723984 different passwords? Deploying OpenID is a bit of a pain, but I'd like to think it would go a little faster.
  595. [22:18:33] <kingryan> yes, DanC, I'm fed up too, but that 24hrs/day problem keeps slowin' me down :D
  596. [22:19:05] * Gr1m (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  597. [22:19:33] <DanC> can you allocate any time to it? or should I start working with the ubuntu guys?
  598. [22:19:57] <DanC> surely if I arrange for ubutuntu to support it, you'll get onboard?
  599. [22:20:10] <tantek> DanC, it's not a matter of being onboard or not
  600. [22:20:20] <tantek> see above Ryan's comment about 24hrs/day limitation
  601. [22:20:22] <DanC> it's a matter of time/priorities
  602. [22:20:53] <kingryan> if you can send me info what the dependencies are, I can allocate a few hours to it
  603. [22:21:00] <DanC> what I meant was: if I arrange for ubuntu to support it, will you apt-get install and deal with some reasonable amount of config hassle?
  604. [22:21:11] <kingryan> yes
  605. [22:22:00] <DanC> anybody else experimenting with openid?
  606. [22:22:19] <DanC> verisign's openid service is nice.
  607. [22:23:24] <deanero> i was planning to checking out the session at oscon
  608. [22:24:01] <kingryan> alright, back to hreview+json...
  609. [22:24:18] <kingryan> could I get some feedback on http://theryanking.com/temp/01-spec.html
  610. [22:24:22] <kingryan> and http://theryanking.com/temp/01-spec.json
  611. [22:25:09] <DanC> how did you pretty-print it?
  612. [22:25:21] <hober> strictly speaking, that isn't a json object
  613. [22:25:38] <hober> { 'reviews' : <everything in that file> } would be
  614. [22:25:47] <kingryan> DanC: huh?
  615. [22:25:52] <DanC> really? json can't have [] on the outside?
  616. [22:26:04] <DanC> did you write 01-spec.json by hand?
  617. [22:26:06] <hober> the outermost expression has to be an object, yeah.
  618. [22:26:25] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthe_
  619. [22:26:25] <kingryan> ok, hober
  620. [22:26:37] <kingryan> uploading new version
  621. [22:26:41] <kingryan> yes, DanC
  622. [22:26:48] <DanC> hmm...
  623. [22:26:48] <DanC> "vcard": {
  624. [22:26:48] <DanC> "fn": "Crepes on Cole",
  625. [22:26:48] <DanC> "org": "Crepes on Cole"
  626. [22:27:23] <DanC> my vcard-in-JSON structure has gotten a lot more complicated than that, in order to deal with organization-unit and such
  627. [22:28:33] <kingryan> can I see your vcard-json stuff?
  628. [22:28:50] <DanC> well, it's sorta all over the place... I'm looking...
  629. [22:29:10] <kingryan> btw, tantek: the first example in http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview lacks a 'version' element
  630. [22:29:11] <DanC> I'm sorta trying to collect it in http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/data4/ , but it's slow going...
  631. [22:29:13] <kingryan> on purpose?
  632. [22:29:34] <tantek> version is still optional AFAIK
  633. [22:29:39] <tantek> in hReview
  634. [22:29:43] <tantek> and I very much want to keep it that way
  635. [22:29:54] <kingryan> ah, yes
  636. [22:29:55] <kingryan> I forgot
  637. [22:30:37] <kingryan> DanC: I'm not sure we need all the charset stuff in these tests
  638. [22:30:38] * tantek can even see dropping version in a future version of hReview, since so far it has not made a big difference and constitutes invisible metadata (e.g. as created by the hReview creator), and does not reflect any existing publishing practice.
  639. [22:30:53] <DanC> charset?
  640. [22:31:03] <kingryan> from http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2006/data4/
  641. [22:31:13] <kingryan> you have '{u'fn': {u'charset': u'UTF-8', 'value': u'Tantek \xc7elik'},'
  642. [22:31:17] <kingryan> which seems like overkill
  643. [22:31:35] <DanC> I agree it's overkill; but x2v produces it.
  644. [22:31:50] <tantek> it is necessary for proper parsing of UTF8 text values
  645. [22:31:57] <tantek> in vCard properties
  646. [22:31:57] <DanC> and I have some code that deletes it for the utf-8 case (and craps out on anything else)
  647. [22:32:14] <tantek> because, guess what, when files get downloaded, they don't have a "HTTP header" section
  648. [22:32:29] <tantek> so therefore all file formats need to be self-describing in terms of charset
  649. [22:32:43] <DanC> well, JSON already is self-describing.
  650. [22:32:59] <DanC> so in JSON, it's redundant to say utf-8 and wrong to say anything else, I think.
  651. [22:33:08] <kingryan> any more comments on the json structure I wrote?
  652. [22:33:22] <kingryan> (I've taken hober's suggestion and updated)
  653. [22:33:47] <KevinMarks> that u'' s Pythons way of saying unicode - is that JSON too?
  654. [22:34:17] <hober> it's not JSON, no.
  655. [22:34:20] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  656. [22:34:24] * boneill (i=boneill@i-83-67-41-33.freedom2surf.net) Quit ("blah.")
  657. [22:34:33] * bewest tries to catch up
  658. [22:34:40] <KevinMarks> so thats a parsing artefact?
  659. [22:34:40] * bewest had some work to do
  660. [22:35:09] <hober> KevinMarks: that's an artifact of the Python pretty-printer.
  661. [22:35:33] <bewest> when I need extra stuff, I usually stick in a meta object at the root level, or whatever level needs it
  662. [22:35:56] <bewest> so you might have { meta: { charset : "UTF-8" }, data: {....}}
  663. [22:36:15] <DanC> here's the JSON/python structure I use for hCards for airports: http://bgf-mirc.pastebin.ca/100218
  664. [22:36:47] <DanC> 'nickname': {'text': 'MCI'}
  665. [22:37:10] <DanC> I'm not sure I'm happy with it, but it's the simplest thing that works in all the code I'm writing.
  666. [22:37:20] <kingryan> 'url': {'_': u'http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_City_International_Airport'}}
  667. [22:37:25] <kingryan> what's '_' ?
  668. [22:37:25] <bewest> why _?
  669. [22:37:29] <kingryan> a blank node?
  670. [22:37:36] <mfbot> [[hlisting]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting * Rohit * (+103)
  671. [22:37:49] <DanC> no, '_' is whatever appears raw in .ics format, e.g. before undoing \ escapes
  672. [22:38:20] <DanC> so that should have a 'text' item as well as a '_' item
  673. [22:38:29] <hober> also, strings are surrounded by double quotes in json, not single quotes.
  674. [22:38:30] <kingryan> ok
  675. [22:38:42] <bewest> for awhile I was thinking of something like http://www.dichotomize.com/czmap/hcard_structure.js but it's probably a bit overdone as well
  676. [22:38:54] <hober> (It's not just the ^u that's wrong with u'foo')
  677. [22:39:27] * DanC was hoping folks would excuse/ignore the pythonisms when discussing this JSON stuff
  678. [22:39:32] <mfbot> [[hlisting]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting&diff=0&oldid=7734 * Tantek * (+30)
  679. [22:39:33] <hober> :)
  680. [22:40:23] <kingryan> bewest: I agree, overkill
  681. [22:40:30] <bewest> :-)
  682. [22:40:42] <kingryan> for this, I'd like to have the simplest possible structure that can work as JSON
  683. [22:40:49] <kingryan> (and hopefully be YAML compatible)
  684. [22:41:35] <bewest> why is the u'' needed again?
  685. [22:41:52] <DanC> u'' is needed because python was designed in the pre-unicode era
  686. [22:42:01] <KevinMarks> well, kinda
  687. [22:42:08] <bewest> but why is it needed with json?
  688. [22:42:12] <hober> it's not.
  689. [22:42:13] <KevinMarks> it isn't
  690. [22:42:15] <DanC> it's not needed with josn
  691. [22:42:19] <DanC> all together now!
  692. [22:42:23] <hober> :)
  693. [22:42:24] <bewest> :-)
  694. [22:42:44] <bewest> so what's wrong with a simple nested hash?
  695. [22:43:14] <DanC> well, sometimes the organization-name is in vcard['org'] and sometimes it's in vcard['org']['organization-name']
  696. [22:43:29] <DanC> my design decision was to always put it in vcard['org']['organization-name']
  697. [22:44:08] <DanC> perhaps fields like fn don't need the 'text' thing, but for regularity sake, it seemed easier.
  698. [22:44:37] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) Quit ()
  699. [22:45:21] <DanC> hmm... in javascript, you can just write vcard.org , can't you? are -'s allowed in javascript identifiers?
  700. [22:45:34] <DanC> (oops; I meant to leave javascript/python foo out of this discussion)
  701. [22:46:50] <hober> you can write vard.org or vcard['org'] in js; if org were %^#$@ instead, you could still vcard['%^#$@'], but not vcard.%^#$@.
  702. [22:47:31] <DanC> ah. tx.
  703. [22:47:38] <bewest> hmm
  704. [22:47:51] <bewest> the approach in js is to normalize names using camelCase
  705. [22:48:05] <bewest> foo-bar becomes fooBar
  706. [22:48:13] <bewest> I can't think of any exceptions, currently
  707. [22:48:17] <DanC> is that actually supported at runtime?
  708. [22:48:23] <bewest> except the class attribute which became className
  709. [22:48:27] <bewest> no, it's a design decision
  710. [22:48:30] <bewest> but it's very very consistent
  711. [22:48:38] <DanC> i.e. does vcard.fooBar work just like vcard['foo-bar']?
  712. [22:48:42] <bewest> no
  713. [22:48:44] <DanC> ah
  714. [22:50:32] <DanC> camelCase is a documented convention in RDF-land too. I'm still mulling over what to do for rdf calendar vs hCalendar for stuff like LAST-MODIFIED
  715. [22:51:05] <DanC> I lean toward the hCalendar style, since I think more people have learned it.
  716. [22:51:41] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
  717. [22:52:05] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
  718. [22:55:08] <DanC> hmm... 6 minutes to family time... I don't see any must-do-today tasks left, though I have 2 blog items in mind. I guess they'll wait for later.
  719. [23:02:23] * remi (n=remi@c207.134.31-221.clta.globetrotter.net) Quit ()
  720. [23:06:33] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  721. [23:06:33] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
  722. [23:11:48] * briansuda (n=briansud@ACA7256D.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
  723. [23:11:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  724. [23:11:49] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  725. [23:19:21] <bewest> DanC: oh, I meant to ask you: did you participate in documentation or implementation of erm urllib or urllib2 module for python?
  726. [23:19:36] <bewest> hmm he's probably gone
  727. [23:19:49] <bewest> but I saw a reference to ~connolly in the docs
  728. [23:31:04] * deanero (n=dean@66.239.39.109.ptr.us.xo.net) Quit ()
  729. [23:32:35] <csarven> tantek http://tantek.com/presentations/2006/03/building-blocks/
  730. [23:34:53] <csarven> anchors prev and next have colour set to black. doesn't display on slides with black background
  731. [23:35:15] <tantek> i didn't want them to
  732. [23:36:11] * bewest guesses there's a :hover rule without looking
  733. [23:41:49] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
  734. [23:45:45] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=7735 * Rohit * (+4) Simple Listing -
  735. [23:49:25] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
  736. [23:50:22] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) has joined #microformats
  737. [23:50:23] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  738. [23:50:47] * briansuda (n=briansud@ACA7256D.ipt.aol.com) Quit ()
  739. [23:56:26] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")

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