IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- [00:10:33] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d150-142-140.home.cgocable.net) has joined #microformats
- [00:10:34] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
- [00:11:28] <amanuel>
What a day.
- [00:11:46] <amanuel>
Otavo is now open. Seatec Astronomy.
- [00:12:11] <amanuel>
no more secrets.
- [00:18:41] * Gr1m (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ()
- [00:20:24] <tantek>
too many secrets
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- [00:53:20] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [01:20:03] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
- [01:20:03] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
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- [01:40:38] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [01:44:07] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [02:11:29] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [02:20:34] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [02:34:17] <ajturner>
briansuda - what is the url for your MF cheatsheet?
- [02:34:31] <ajturner>
the link you put out on the MF mailing list had a page with a link that didn't work
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- [02:53:25] * ajturner (n=ajturner@d14-69-64-67.try.wideopenwest.com) Quit ()
- [02:53:41] <mfbot>
[[semantic-xhtml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7736 * Tantek * (+702) added presentations section
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- [03:20:52] <csarven>
there is a semantic elements section on that wiki page. aren't all elements essentially have a semantic equivalency wrt the object?
- [03:24:21] <csarven>
tantek you've updated last
- [03:24:50] <tantek>
no some elements are purely presentational
- [03:24:59] <tantek>
and some have nearly no semantic, e.g. div/span
- [03:25:02] <csarven>
right
- [03:25:05] <tantek>
ah, that reminds me...
- [03:25:21] <csarven>
i was about to add bunch, but then realized most are semantic
- [03:27:07] <tantek>
go ahead and add some, if any are not semantic then i'm sure we can discuss ;)
- [03:28:46] * tantek adding a presentation link currently
- [03:30:08] <mfbot>
[[semantic-xhtml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7737 * Tantek * (+229) added Semantic Spectrum reference
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- [03:39:19] <mfbot>
[[semantic-xhtml]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=semantic-xhtml&diff=0&oldid=7738 * Csarven * (+99) Semantic Elements -
- [03:40:15] <csarven>
hmm missed code, li..
- [03:41:41] <csarven>
not sure about strong though.. perhaps that should come out
- [03:42:28] <csarven>
how can you emphasize something even more strongly? gray area
- [03:47:53] <csarven>
tantek how would you consider sub, sup. they are essentially for presentational locally, however globally within context they have meaning
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- [03:54:59] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [04:55:58] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [04:55:58] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
- [04:56:09] * deanero_ is now known as deanero
- [04:56:36] <Atamido>
Yes I am.
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- [05:00:02] <deanero>
?def deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [05:00:03] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [05:03:22] <mfbot>
[[irc]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=irc&diff=0&oldid=7739 * DeanEro * (+41) People on irc - added deanero (-0800/-0700)
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- [05:15:20] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [07:10:02] * deanero (n=dean@64.122.195.243) has joined #microformats
- [07:10:02] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
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- [07:30:12] <mfbot>
[[hresume-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-fr&diff=0&oldid=7740 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1056) [fr:sync with hResume]
- [07:33:08] <mfbot>
[[hresume-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume-fr&diff=0&oldid=7741 * ChristopheDucamp * (+90) Références -
- [07:46:20] * izo_ (n=izo@allhost.fupl.asso.fr) has joined #microformats
- [07:49:48] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
- [07:49:49] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [07:50:20] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [07:57:50] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
- [07:57:50] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [08:05:15] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
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- [08:05:21] <McNulty>
morning
- [08:09:07] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:09:07] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
- [08:13:16] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:13:21] <Whiskey_M>
'lo
- [08:18:33] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
- [08:18:34] <jibot>
mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
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- [09:08:42] * Charl (n=charlvn@net-153-111.mweb.co.za) has joined #microformats
- [09:08:43] <jibot>
Charl is Charl van Niekerk and writes about standards at http://standards.za.net/
- [09:25:58] <McNulty>
Is there a public (free) hCard->vCard XSL?
- [09:26:52] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [09:26:57] <McNulty>
ah, briansuda has one
- [09:27:53] <McNulty>
awesome
- [09:28:59] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
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- [09:48:40] * drewinthe_ is now known as drewinthehead
- [09:48:56] <drewinthehead>
mornin'
- [09:50:08] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [09:51:53] <Whiskey_M>
morning drew :)
- [09:52:22] <mn_francis>
drew, drew, he's our man ...
- [09:52:27] <Whiskey_M>
lol
- [09:53:25] <drewinthehead>
uh oh
- [09:53:46] <drewinthehead>
who's man am i, and why? :)
- [09:54:04] <drewinthehead>
whose, rather.
- [09:54:10] <mn_francis>
er
- [09:54:11] <mn_francis>
um
- [09:54:14] <mn_francis>
ours?
- [09:54:19] <mn_francis>
because you're just sooooo awesome
- [09:54:28] <drewinthehead>
aww .. ok.
- [09:55:00] <mn_francis>
sorry, it's "silly morning norm" right now
- [09:58:33] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [09:58:34] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [10:00:12] * n41 (n=Miranda@svs15.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) has joined #microformats
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- [10:09:44] <mfbot>
[[semantic-xhtml-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-xhtml-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+2091)
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- [10:11:24] <mfbot>
[[semantic-class-names-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/semantic-class-names-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+625)
- [10:14:15] <mfbot>
[[hlisting-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/hlisting-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+169)
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- [10:16:37] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [10:16:38] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [10:19:27] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7742 * ChristopheDucamp * (+209) Implémentations -
- [10:20:48] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7743 * ChristopheDucamp * (-208) Implémentations -
- [10:23:51] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
- [10:23:52] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [10:27:40] <drewinthehead>
morning Phae
- [10:28:16] <Phae>
morning
- [10:49:01] <McNulty>
are there any examples in the wild of having multi-part ORG values?
- [10:49:31] <McNulty>
or is it just a 2-part thing? I'm not too clear
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- [11:07:03] <drewinthehead>
multipart in what way, McNult?
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- [11:45:12] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [11:45:12] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [11:49:25] <McNulty>
drewinthehead - in vCard you can have something like ORG:ABC\, Inc.;North American Division;Marketing
- [11:49:35] <McNulty>
semicolon-separated
- [11:49:49] <drewinthehead>
hmm
- [11:49:56] <McNulty>
hCard spec says:
- [11:50:06] <McNulty>
The "ORG" property has two subproperties, organization-name and organization-unit. Very often authors only publish the organization-name. Thus if an "ORG" property has no "organization-name" inside it, then its entire contents MUST be treated as the "organization-name".
- [11:50:33] <McNulty>
which seems to imply only two parts, rather than the 3+ implied by the vCard example?
- [11:50:47] <McNulty>
Or can there be many organisation-units...
- [11:53:03] <McNulty>
Ah I've answered my own question, vCard allows one organisation-name followed by multiple organisation-units
- [11:57:03] <drewinthehead>
right
- [11:57:28] <McNulty>
I guess the order would just be the order they appear in the HTML
- [11:59:48] <drewinthehead>
yes
- [12:01:32] <Whiskey_M>
I've been thinking about something along the same lines would: <span class="organisation organisation-name organisation-unit organisation-unit>o,ou,ou</span> be valid?
- [12:01:46] <Whiskey_M>
obviously putting in my missing " ;)
- [12:02:07] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [12:02:08] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [12:02:31] <drewinthehead>
Whiskey_M: no
- [12:03:03] <drewinthehead>
there's nothing in the spec about commas, so parsers wouldn't know what you meant by that
- [12:03:56] <Whiskey_M>
but using multiple instances of the same class to indicate mutliple instances of data is valid? I'm thinking like name suffixes, middle names etc.
- [12:04:01] <drewinthehead>
you'd end up with name and unit set to the same thing
- [12:04:50] <drewinthehead>
multiple instances on different elements
- [12:05:20] <drewinthehead>
why would you need multiple instances of the same property and value?
- [12:05:51] <McNulty>
you mean like <span class="organisation-unit organisation-unit">foo</span>
- [12:05:59] <McNulty>
and you'd get two of them in the translated version?
- [12:06:20] <McNulty>
I don't know what the semantics of specifying a class twice are, I think an element is either in a class or not
- [12:08:12] <mfbot>
[[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=7744 * ChristopheDucamp * (+209) 0.1 implémentations hAtom -
- [12:10:06] <McNulty>
Whiskey_M - from the HTML spec:
- [12:10:19] <McNulty>
@class - "This attribute assigns a class name or set of class names to an element."
- [12:10:37] <McNulty>
so <span class="foo foo"> just tells you twice that the span is in the class foo
- [12:10:50] <McNulty>
It shouldn't be different to <span class="foo"> IMO
- [12:12:12] <Whiskey_M>
I agree - I am just sure I saw some example somewhere that wasn't splitting each of the sub-elements to their own span and was trying to think how you'd replicate that programmatically
- [12:15:56] <McNulty>
Can you remember where?
- [12:17:56] <Whiskey_M>
no, I've been hunting around the wiki trying to find it
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- [12:48:21] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
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- [13:17:29] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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- [13:33:16] <amanuel>
amette__: we launched :)
- [13:33:57] <amanuel>
well public beta
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- [13:35:34] <amette__>
amanuel : kewl :)
- [13:35:56] * amanuel saw your post on your blog btw :)
- [13:36:13] <McNulty>
amanuel - launched what?
- [13:36:20] <amanuel>
Otavo
- [13:36:58] * McNulty investigates
- [13:37:03] <amanuel>
lol
- [13:37:16] <Whiskey_M>
hURL?
- [13:37:24] <McNulty>
hhhhm
- [13:37:28] <amanuel>
http://otavo.com
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- [13:37:44] <amette__>
<a href="http://otavo.com" class="hurl">otavo</a>
- [13:37:54] <amanuel>
yup xfolk
- [13:38:13] <amanuel>
?
- [13:38:28] <amette__>
no, hurl for Whiskey_M ;)
- [13:39:00] <amanuel>
well it has microformats from day 1
- [13:39:24] <amanuel>
the quests links list is xFolk'd
- [13:40:02] <McNulty>
There was a debate a couple of days ago regarding the use of DL for forms, did we come to any conclusions?
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- [13:41:57] * trovster has just looked at xfolk.
- [13:42:35] <trovster>
Quite annoying in the inconsistency in the class names, extended-address on hCards, entry-content on hAtom, and xfolkentry on xFolk...
- [13:44:15] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [13:44:31] <McNulty>
gah
- [13:44:54] <trovster>
McNulty: I doubt anything was concluded with the use of DL for forms. I guess most of the people in here will only use DL for the strictest of def+desc pairing.
- [13:45:56] <McNulty>
I was thinking about it... I think that a form should be marked up in the same way as you'd mark up a non-editable version of the same data, what do you think??
- [13:46:14] <Whiskey_M>
You mean like a FAQ?
- [13:46:26] <trovster>
That's what I do ;)
- [13:46:34] <McNulty>
I mean say a user details form
- [13:46:54] <McNulty>
you should use a DL iff you'd use a DL for the same info if it wasn't a form
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- [13:53:30] <McNulty>
trovster - do you have an example of a styled form with a DL?
- [13:53:34] <McNulty>
I'm not sure how to do a few things
- [13:53:50] <trovster>
http://www.approveddesign.co.uk/about/proposal/
- [13:56:38] <McNulty>
aha, one of the things I wasn't clear about was the fieldset but I see you've split it into separate DLs
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- [13:59:20] <trovster>
Separate fieldset, like a separate div(ision), so a new DL
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- [14:02:34] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [14:04:56] * chucker (n=chucker@p5489C2E6.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:07:39] <McNulty>
what's a decent markup for 'example' notes by the side of forms elements?
- [14:12:27] <drewinthehead>
i don't think there's anything that conveys the semantics of that in html .. so how about a class name of 'example' ?
- [14:14:23] <chucker>
I guess <samp> would be close
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- [14:15:25] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [14:15:28] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
- [14:17:53] <Whiskey_M>
in xmdp is there any flag to show the nesting, i.e. org (organisation-name, organisation-unit)
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- [14:23:21] <briansuda>
Whiskey_M, at the moment XMDP is flat, there is no way to define hierarchy
- [14:24:29] <McNulty>
Whiskey_M - XMDP is sort of a hashtable, it's term->definition
- [14:25:52] <Whiskey_M>
thought so - didn't want to be missing something though
- [14:26:56] <briansuda>
at one point i was working on a universal microformats validator which would first fetch the XMDP then attempt to compare against that, therefore you would not have to have prior knowledge of any new microformat.
- [14:27:30] <briansuda>
but as you can probably tell, without nesting all you can do is say something exists, but not that it is valid
- [14:27:55] <briansuda>
there has been some rumblings in the past about getting an XMDP to include another XMPD
- [14:28:21] <briansuda>
the idea being that you COULD have <head profile=" 30 different Microformat URLs here">
- [14:28:41] <briansuda>
to minimise that you could reference ONE XMDP that included all the others
- [14:28:53] <briansuda>
there hasn't been much movement on that (not that i know)
- [14:29:24] <briansuda>
as well as possibly including or using existing HTML constructs to start to make some atomic types
- [14:29:54] <briansuda>
these would be used for things like XFN's (reciprocal, inverse, exclusive)
- [14:30:07] <Whiskey_M>
the aim sounds remarkably similar to probably the core reason I've been playing with the XSD (with the hope that it could optionally sit behind microformats) - why did you drop it?
- [14:30:12] <briansuda>
again, it was kicked around VERY early on, but not much as moved on that
- [14:30:28] <briansuda>
xsd is more for type casting, right?
- [14:30:38] <briansuda>
this is a datetime, this is an int
- [14:31:04] <briansuda>
we didn't really drop it, we just got busy with other things
- [14:31:09] <Whiskey_M>
it does do that - but you can also define structure and I've made up a namespace to allow attribute binding
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- [14:42:02] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
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- [14:45:05] <tantek>
yes, Whiskey_M, it hasn't been dropped
- [14:45:14] <tantek>
rel="import" for XMDP is still on my list
- [14:45:25] <tantek>
for a importing whole XMDPs into an XMDP
- [14:45:28] <tantek>
or just a property
- [14:45:31] <tantek>
or just a value
- [14:49:32] <briansuda>
Whiskey_M, i think you also said a bad word "namespace" :) with XMDP typing (for more complex stuff) we might be able to use XMDP to define those relationships
- [14:49:56] <briansuda>
<a href="#met" rel="transitive">transitive</a>
- [14:49:57] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
- [14:50:11] <briansuda>
where #met refers to itself
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- [14:50:57] <briansuda>
there might be ways to defined transitive, exclusive, etc with rel and XMDP already, no namespace or extra stuff required.
- [14:51:50] <briansuda>
not much time has been spent on this, so these are just ideas... then you also have to ask, if this is needed or important? otherwise we'd just be "spinning our wheels" where our time could better be spent elsewhere
- [14:51:56] <Whiskey_M>
sorry, had to wander for a second there - catching up
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- [14:53:18] <Whiskey_M>
caught up :)
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- [14:54:11] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [14:55:34] <Whiskey_M>
glad it's not been dropped - sounds interesting - in regards to namespaces, I understand in relation to microformats and XMDP where this is a bad thing. It really shouldn't be made as complicated as that and you do end up loosing the controlled grammer (you end up with a pretty much roll your own)
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- [14:57:24] <tantek>
actually, the transitive/symmetric stuff is definitely very low priority
- [14:57:33] <tantek>
it's not clear how it would be of much help for what applications
- [14:58:00] <tantek>
the "import" stuff is of medium priority because I know I'm going to need to do it *very* soon to avoid duplicating property definitions in hCalendar XMDP and hReview XMDP from hCard XMDP
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- [14:58:36] <tantek>
basically we prioritize according to what we actually need in XMDP to support the formats as simply/easily as possible
- [14:58:53] <tantek>
we don't specifically have the goal of trying to make all aspects of the format definition be machine readable
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- [14:59:20] <tantek>
because that's an impossible goal in practice (even DTD and XSD are not "rich enough" to make all aspects of XHTML machine defined)
- [14:59:49] <Whiskey_M>
silly question that will probably get me the boot - aren't you re-inventing the wheel by extending XMDP since other technologies have that built in?
- [15:00:06] <Whiskey_M>
and quickly, I'm not suggesting gettnig rid of XMDP
- [15:00:28] <Whiskey_M>
other technologies are too damned complicated for standard coders to follow, thus the MF take-up
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- [15:01:53] <briansuda>
part of that has to do with the HTML 4 spec. They defined how and what the profile attribute should point too.
- [15:02:09] <briansuda>
from that XMDP arose - this was pre-microformats
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- [15:02:29] <Whiskey_M>
yup
- [15:03:02] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [15:03:11] <Whiskey_M>
bbiab
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- [15:05:47] * tantek notes 60+ folks in the channel for probably the first time.
- [15:08:45] <Whiskey_M>
lots of peeps, very quiet though ;)
- [15:14:03] <tantek>
Whiskey_M, you're precisely right about not wanting to reinvent the wheel
- [15:14:15] <tantek>
hence why I've been very resistant to much (if anything) to XMDP
- [15:14:34] <tantek>
it needs to be kept as minimal as possible, and only have things added when it helps authors
- [15:15:05] <tantek>
"import" will help authors in that it will enable referencing only a single XMDP in the <head profile=""> which can then import others (just like stylesheets can)
- [15:15:18] <tantek>
instead of having to put a whole slew of URLs into the top of every document
- [15:15:22] <Whiskey_M>
so leave XMDP alone more or less, bind XSD or other standard in a computer only link which does support imports etc.
- [15:15:27] <tantek>
like some other XML standards require
- [15:15:37] <tantek>
<cough>namespaces</cough>
- [15:16:01] <tantek>
using XSD just for imports is like swatting a fly with a hammer
- [15:16:25] <tantek>
and we're trying hard here to stick with semantic XHTML
- [15:16:33] <tantek>
not wanting to introduce a whole nother format
- [15:16:55] <tantek>
the nice thing about XMDP is that it is simple enough that modern web designers can read an understand it
- [15:17:09] <tantek>
and they'll understand rel="import" as well, as they understand @import in CSS
- [15:17:20] <tantek>
whereas reading/understanding XSD? forget it.
- [15:17:28] <tantek>
that's like a .00001% kind of thing
- [15:17:30] <Whiskey_M>
yup, and that has to remain the same - the reason why there isn't bigger uptake of other semantic standards is they are too damned hard
- [15:17:44] <tantek>
mostly because they are:
- [15:17:57] <tantek>
1. too damned bloated with crap that people don't need most of the time
- [15:18:17] <tantek>
2. too damned "new" (new syntaxes, new grammars, new names of properties/values etc.)
- [15:18:50] <tantek>
so we took those anti-patterns from other semantic standards, inverted them, and put them down as principles
- [15:19:14] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/about
- [15:19:19] <tantek>
start as simple as possible
- [15:19:24] <tantek>
reuse
- [15:20:22] <Whiskey_M>
yup, read it and agree
- [15:21:42] <Whiskey_M>
but it would be useful to have a cross over into those bloated new syntaxes -- especially if mf adoption has that benefit as standard
- [15:21:54] <Whiskey_M>
or near enough
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- [15:22:44] <tantek>
and we're back in the 50s
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- [15:29:45] <Whiskey_M>
I have a worried feeling that I'm just not getting it and being very stupid
- [15:29:56] * drewinthehead popped into #php yesterday to find nearly 400 people ... and promptly left again
- [15:33:49] <McNulty>
scared off?
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- [15:37:30] <tantek>
yes, it is amazing how many channels have 100+ people
- [15:39:42] <trovster>
#css on efnet = 170 :)
- [15:40:16] <Whiskey_M>
So being stupid here's the silly stuff --- stick an XSD (with an extention for matching hints in HTML), behind the XMDP - let the XSD manage imports etc. the technicalities of those are really for computers, let the xmdp just describe so people can follow. day to day people adopting mf need not even know they are there
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- [15:40:37] <tantek>
like I said, swatting a fly with a hammer
- [15:40:50] <tantek>
I really don't want to introduce any dependency on XSD
- [15:40:59] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
- [15:41:00] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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- [15:41:21] <Whiskey_M>
there are only 8 specifications of fly at present - but I can see you're not sold in the slightest :)
- [15:41:23] <tantek>
any dependency on a significantly more complex technology makes the system that much more fragile, since mistakes are easier with complex technologies
- [15:42:30] <tantek>
especially when 1/1000th the people (or perhaps in the case of XSD 1/10000000th the people) understand the more complex technology
- [15:44:05] <Whiskey_M>
I can stop going on about this if I'm being a pain, just let me know. However why would they have to understand, just leave it as XMDP for standard users along with the wiki guides on formatting.
- [15:45:17] <Whiskey_M>
could even make the xsd optional
- [15:46:41] <Whiskey_M>
tea and cig, bbiab
- [15:47:11] <McNulty>
tantek - what's your opinion on DLs for forms?
- [15:47:33] <McNulty>
I was talking about it the other day and sparked a big debate, but never came to a real conclusion
- [15:48:09] <dglazkov>
I think playing with figuring out how to map mfs to XSDs is a good individual exercise. It helps gaining understanding why using XSD in mfs is a bad idea. (speaking from personal experience)
- [15:48:20] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
- [15:48:21] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [15:56:39] <Whiskey_M>
dg: I am playing http://www.redantdesign.com/hcard/take2.asp I'm just missing the bad idea part at the moment. I'm not saying it's not a bad idea since I need to understand mfs a lot more, I just can't see why it's a bad idea yet
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- [16:03:14] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
- [16:03:30] <drewinthehead>
i just updated the hAtom2Atom on tools.microformatic.com - if anyone notices anything wonky, shout.
- [16:06:21] <drewinthehead>
(no new features, just hardening defences)
- [16:08:59] <dglazkov>
Whiskey_M, what have you accomplished with this mapping? Where's the beef?
- [16:09:18] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
- [16:09:44] <Whiskey_M>
which mapping? The whole lot?
- [16:10:12] <dglazkov>
the mapping of hCard to XSD
- [16:10:56] <Whiskey_M>
hopefully working towards making microformats machine readable
- [16:11:15] <dglazkov>
how are you going to address hCard optimizations?
- [16:11:24] <dglazkov>
fn optimization, for instance
- [16:11:30] <Whiskey_M>
sorry, easily machine readable - I know tails and whatnot allow you to do that already
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- [16:12:29] <dglazkov>
my biggest a-ha moment was realizing that writing format-specific parser is a whole lot easier than writing a generic parser
- [16:12:33] <Whiskey_M>
sorry reading fn optimization
- [16:12:55] <dglazkov>
and that writing generic parser is mostly masturbation, pardon the phraseology
- [16:13:21] <dglazkov>
because since you already know specific formats, why bother coming up with a generic parser?
- [16:13:31] <dglazkov>
all you need is a generic XHTML parser
- [16:13:54] <dglazkov>
and maybe a good class/element navigator with it
- [16:14:09] <Whiskey_M>
it would mean that you'd have to work out the rulesets for each format though?
- [16:14:36] <dglazkov>
rulesets?
- [16:14:54] <Whiskey_M>
where elements are placed, nesting etc.
- [16:15:30] <dglazkov>
yep -- those will need to be format-specific, and they are already defined in the format spec
- [16:16:27] <dglazkov>
I think I know what you are trying to do -- I thought about this myself
- [16:16:30] <Whiskey_M>
the spec being written in the wiki pages?
- [16:17:38] <dglazkov>
declarative computing. Kind of like the ol' lexer and yacc -- give them the language spec and they will spit out something formalized back
- [16:18:41] <dglazkov>
Whiskey_M: yes
- [16:19:54] * Kura (n=Kura@adsl.kurafire.net) Quit ()
- [16:19:56] <Whiskey_M>
I guess I'm just approaching it from the wrong angle, machine first
- [16:21:06] <dglazkov>
it's not your fault :) it's Software Engineering's fault :)
- [16:22:53] * bergie (n=bergie@cs78246093.pp.htv.fi) Quit ()
- [16:25:24] <Whiskey_M>
I think this will be one that I just don't get :) I can't see the point of non-machine readable semantics, and I can only see a large work overhead in converting each semantic framework via XHTML into other formats using XSL. However that's for me to pick up and find out, more learning needed on my part I feel :)
- [16:26:27] <tantek>
Whiskey_M because any useful language (esp. on the Web) inevitably has non-machine readable semantics
- [16:26:32] <tantek>
e.g HTML, XHTML etc.
- [16:26:40] <tantek>
have plenty described in the prose of the spec
- [16:26:50] <tantek>
that CANNOT be represented in DTD or XSD
- [16:27:00] <tantek>
so since you will never be 100% machine readable, just give up sooner
- [16:27:25] <tantek>
and the other problem is...
- [16:27:36] <tantek>
that very often efforts to make a language machine readable/parsable
- [16:27:46] <tantek>
tend to compromise human usability and use cases in the process
- [16:27:49] <tantek>
which some are ok with
- [16:27:54] <tantek>
but we (microformats) are not
- [16:28:09] <tantek>
thus the reason that "machines first" is undesirable
- [16:28:25] <tantek>
it leads to less optimal solutions for human (content) use
- [16:28:52] <Whiskey_M>
as I said, I need to read and learn more
- [16:29:02] <dglazkov>
and give some credit to the machines. Armed with some specific knowledge, they can read this stuff just as well :)
- [16:29:03] <tantek>
it is not just reading about microformats
- [16:29:13] <tantek>
it is experience with the development and evolution of HTML itself
- [16:29:37] <tantek>
there is a lot of background here that has led to where we are with microformats principles
- [16:32:42] <Whiskey_M>
even more reading :)
- [16:36:30] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
- [16:36:31] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [16:37:41] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [16:46:03] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [16:46:46] <Whiskey_M>
time for the pub, laters all
- [16:46:48] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #microformats
- [16:46:49] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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- [17:03:41] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
- [17:03:44] * ChanServ sets mode +o kingryan
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- [17:06:12] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [17:06:29] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:07:28] <cgriego>
theoretically, <div class="miroformats-magic-class-name-here"><img alt="Value Here" /></div> should work, right?
- [17:09:37] <bewest>
cgriego: huh?
- [17:09:59] <tantek>
cgriego no
- [17:10:22] <tantek>
or at least, not if you wanted the value to be recognized
- [17:10:27] <tantek>
for that property
- [17:10:33] <cgriego>
why not?
- [17:11:02] <bewest>
your value is hidden there
- [17:11:43] <bewest>
hidden values are a bit like non-existant values
- [17:12:12] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-fr&diff=0&oldid=7745 * ChristopheDucamp * (+136)
- [17:12:19] <cgriego>
why do you say it's hidden? Google and a screen-reader would not call it hidden.
- [17:12:29] <bewest>
but a person can't read it
- [17:12:52] <tantek>
because the alt attribute on img only applies to properties directly on img
- [17:12:55] <bewest>
unless they view source, I suppose
- [17:13:11] <cgriego>
would <div class="miroformats-magic-class-name-here"><img title="Value Here" /></div> be parsed then?
- [17:13:26] <tantek>
e.g. <img class="summary" alt="BarCampEarth" src="barcampearthlogo.png" />
- [17:16:33] <pnhChris>
i guess i'm confused about the explanation
- [17:17:13] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-fr&diff=0&oldid=7746 * ChristopheDucamp * (-1)
- [17:17:27] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) Quit ()
- [17:17:43] <pnhChris>
aren't there a few logo / photo cases where properties are regularly have values as the alt contents?
- [17:17:58] <pnhChris>
bewest?
- [17:17:59] <bewest>
cgriego: are you talking about logos and photos?
- [17:18:10] <bewest>
pnhChris: but he left out a src attribute
- [17:18:17] <bewest>
which made me think he was just trying to encode hidden information
- [17:18:47] <cgriego>
bewest: I'm speaking generally, not just image types
- [17:19:04] <bewest>
might as well do <span class="fn" style="display: hidden;">Ben West</span>
- [17:19:12] <bewest>
if you /really/ want to hide something
- [17:19:19] <pnhChris>
oh.. i just read it as comparing <div class="property">value</div> vis <div class="properly"><img src="" .... alt="value" />
- [17:19:35] <bewest>
alt="hidden values"
- [17:19:58] <pnhChris>
i don't think style should apply at all to MF parsing.. but taht's another totally different conversation
- [17:20:00] <bewest>
cgriego: generally it's <div class="property">value</div>
- [17:20:11] <bewest>
pnhChris: it doesn't, but it still hides it from the user
- [17:20:17] <bewest>
pnhChris: without affecting parsing
- [17:20:22] <bewest>
which is why I gave it as an example
- [17:20:22] * pnhChris nods
- [17:20:29] <pnhChris>
but the idea comes up from time to time
- [17:20:32] <pnhChris>
but OT here
- [17:20:37] <pnhChris>
for the moment
- [17:21:16] <cgriego>
I'm just concerned that logically it's a part of an element's value
- [17:21:30] <bewest>
what is "it"?
- [17:22:09] <bewest>
<div class="property-name"> <img alt="some value"></div> doesn't apply the "value" to the property
- [17:22:24] <bewest>
<div class="property-name"> value </div> does
- [17:24:02] <pnhChris>
however??? :: <div class="property-name"> <img class="value" alt="some value"></div>
- [17:24:29] <pnhChris>
that's universal, correct?
- [17:24:45] <pnhChris>
haven't jumped through all the docs to double check
- [17:24:59] * vant__ (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
- [17:25:14] <pnhChris>
(the usage of explicit class="value" to define the value of a parent)
- [17:25:32] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) Quit ()
- [17:26:13] <bewest>
oh I forget I thought there was another step
- [17:26:48] <bewest>
eg <div class="property-name type_of_property"> <img class="value" alt="some value"></div>
- [17:26:58] <bewest>
I think class="value" is supposed to accompany some "type"
- [17:27:30] <bewest>
like with phone numbers there are types: fax, telephone...
- [17:27:44] <pnhChris>
yeah
- [17:28:05] <pnhChris>
but i thought that was just the reason it was added.. but the behavior was the same
- [17:29:00] * pnhChris doesn't think the wording here helps any
- [17:29:00] <pnhChris>
http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-parsing#Value_excerpting
- [17:29:13] <pnhChris>
"This typically occurs " .. bleh :P
- [17:29:16] <bewest>
ooOOoo someone left me a message on the wiki
- [17:29:25] <bewest>
they used "I" but I don't know who "I" is
- [17:31:55] <bewest>
pnhChris: I think the idiomatic way is to prefer leaving out type/value if it can be inferred
- [17:32:53] <pnhChris>
sure
- [17:32:58] <pnhChris>
i guess
- [17:33:00] <bewest>
that is, only use value when the type needs to be specified
- [17:33:35] <pnhChris>
hmmm
- [17:33:46] <pnhChris>
well
- [17:33:52] <pnhChris>
i'm not a spec or a parser writer
- [17:33:55] <pnhChris>
;)
- [17:34:02] <bewest>
if the type doesn't need to be specified, there's no reason to use value
- [17:34:12] <bewest>
that's my understanding
- [17:34:17] <pnhChris>
though i had thought value came up in a conversation or two
- [17:34:27] <pnhChris>
outside of type circumstances
- [17:34:45] <pnhChris>
for reducing the cruft-y text from certiain constructs
- [17:34:54] <tantek>
yes
- [17:35:01] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
- [17:35:01] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [17:35:31] <bewest>
ah
- [17:35:58] <bewest>
like <div class="description"> lots of text lots of text <span class="value">THe real deal.</span> more text more text </div> ?
- [17:36:12] <pnhChris>
[though i could also be persuaded either way about the alt value juts being assumed as the text content in the original case]
- [17:36:27] <tantek>
bewest, correct
- [17:36:48] <tantek>
chris, the alt attribute only applies to properties directly on that element
- [17:36:51] <tantek>
that is intentional
- [17:36:52] <tantek>
by design
- [17:36:55] <pnhChris>
right
- [17:36:57] <pnhChris>
but
- [17:37:18] <pnhChris>
like i said .. i could go either way
- [17:37:24] <pnhChris>
might depend on said value
- [17:37:28] <pnhChris>
er
- [17:37:31] <pnhChris>
property
- [17:37:46] <bewest>
so then something like <div class="description"> <img src="picture" class="value" alt="having fun at the pool." /> </div>
- [17:37:52] <pnhChris>
<div class="description"> lots of text lots of text <img alt="some more text" />THe real deal. more text more text </div>
- [17:38:12] <pnhChris>
vs.
- [17:38:13] <tantek>
bewest, yes, that should work
- [17:38:24] <pnhChris>
<div class="entry-content"> lots of text lots of text <img alt="some more text" />THe real deal. more text more text </div>
- [17:38:26] <pnhChris>
vs.
- [17:38:31] <pnhChris>
<div class="fn"> lots of text lots of text <img alt="some more text" />THe real deal. more text more text </div>
- [17:38:55] <pnhChris>
(ok.. the fn is a bit extreme.. and drew would have a fit best guessing that.. but you get the idea)
- [17:39:06] <bewest>
hehehehehe
- [17:39:30] <pnhChris>
in entry content the image element as a whole should just be grabbed
- [17:39:52] <pnhChris>
but for fn? i can't convince myself it should be ignored
- [17:40:19] <pnhChris>
nor can i convince myself that an image object is part of a formatted name
- [17:40:55] <pnhChris>
fn: lots of text lots of text some more text THe real deal. more text more text
- [17:41:02] <pnhChris>
seems to be the "obvious" answer to me
- [17:41:15] * bewest doesn't know why an image would be part of a name
- [17:41:19] <bewest>
maybe if we met some alien species
- [17:41:27] <bewest>
and their language was completely opaque to us
- [17:41:30] <Phae>
heh
- [17:41:32] <pnhChris>
well bewest
- [17:41:36] <Phae>
that's really forward thinking
- [17:41:38] <pnhChris>
going back to the orginal case
- [17:41:42] <bewest>
sorry
- [17:41:42] <bewest>
heh
- [17:41:59] <pnhChris>
<h1 class="fn org">My Company</h1>
- [17:42:02] <bewest>
I was just trying to see what would be necessary for the proposition to work
- [17:42:03] <pnhChris>
in the top of a document
- [17:42:07] <pnhChris>
vs.
- [17:42:22] <pnhChris>
h1 class="fn org"><img src="" alt="My Company</h1>
- [17:42:32] <pnhChris>
(you get the idea)
- [17:42:39] <pnhChris>
(i hit enter too soon)
- [17:42:40] <bewest>
hmmm
- [17:42:45] <Phae>
the alt is important though, rather than the image?
- [17:42:56] <bewest>
then it should be class="value" as well
- [17:43:12] <bewest>
but even so
- [17:43:18] <pnhChris>
sans class="value"
- [17:43:22] * bewest checks if <img> is allowed in <h1>
- [17:43:23] <pnhChris>
how would that parse?
- [17:43:29] <pnhChris>
an empty fn?
- [17:43:34] <pnhChris>
sure is bewest
- [17:43:38] <bewest>
fn: ""
- [17:43:44] <bewest>
afaik...
- [17:44:15] <pnhChris>
which is why i'm wondering if the alt should be picked up
- [17:44:27] <pnhChris>
because its clearly not in other interpretations of that content
- [17:44:31] <bewest>
pnhChris: why is class="value" left out?
- [17:44:31] <pnhChris>
(e.g. screen readers)
- [17:44:40] <pnhChris>
because that's the way it was coded
- [17:44:47] <pnhChris>
i dunno
- [17:44:51] <pnhChris>
just an example
- [17:45:03] <bewest>
pnhChris: seems to me class="value" should be there then
- [17:46:10] <pnhChris>
ok
- [17:46:11] <pnhChris>
again
- [17:46:15] <bewest>
<h1 class="fn org"> <span class="value">My Company</span> <img src="" alt=""/></h1>
- [17:46:18] <pnhChris>
it could be there
- [17:46:19] <pnhChris>
but
- [17:46:21] <bewest>
how about that,, pnhChris?
- [17:46:32] <pnhChris>
no
- [17:46:34] <bewest>
then .fn .value { display: none; }
- [17:46:43] * tantek_ (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:46:47] <pnhChris>
because no one is going to code like that
- [17:46:50] * valmont (n=chrishol@germany.pspdev.pas.earthlink.net) has joined #microformats
- [17:47:16] <pnhChris>
if they're going to tht extreme they'll just use imagereplacement techniques to begin with
- [17:47:19] <Phae>
If I wanted to do an image like that, I may have image replaced the text.
- [17:47:23] <pnhChris>
here's another one
- [17:47:24] <Phae>
oh. there ya go
- [17:47:27] <bewest>
hehe
- [17:47:51] <bewest>
ok but I still don't understand why a well meaning microformatteer would code it your way and leave out class="value"
- [17:48:06] <bewest>
especially when they can test against a parser/validator
- [17:48:13] <bewest>
(presumably)
- [17:48:21] <pnhChris>
<h1 class="fn org"><img src="logo.gif" alt="Microsoft"><br />Mac BU</h1>
- [17:48:33] <pnhChris>
because where does "value" go in that case?
- [17:48:57] <bewest>
what's the name? Microsoft Mac BU?
- [17:49:08] <pnhChris>
that's how i'd read it, yes
- [17:49:21] <bewest>
so logo.gif just says Microsoft?
- [17:49:53] <bewest>
dunno... can I punt and say it's not idiomatic to web publishing?
- [17:50:57] <bewest>
maybe that's walking off the end of 80% plank
- [17:53:03] <bewest>
those are good examples I guess
- [17:53:48] <pnhChris>
given i've done it a few times.. .maybe not with h1/fn .. but with site names and such.. with logo + sub text.. i'd still want that case to be explained to me.. and i'd still wonder why alt can be ignored like that in cases where we don't want the img markup as a value
- [17:54:21] <pnhChris>
archive.org isn't behaving today :P
- [17:55:22] <bewest>
I'm not sure image replacement technique would work, anyway
- [17:55:27] <pnhChris>
sure
- [17:55:39] <pnhChris>
why not?
- [17:55:51] <bewest>
that makes a silly assumption: that parsers will only pick up microformats on initial page load
- [17:56:13] <pnhChris>
<h1 class="fn org"><span class="replacemewithflash">Microsoft</span><br />Mac BU</h1>
- [17:56:49] <bewest>
and then a parser who parsers your page after the flash content is there won't get what you intended
- [17:56:56] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
- [17:57:05] <Phae>
Parsers look at the source, I assumed.
- [17:57:07] <pnhChris>
sucks to be the one trying to write that parser?
- [17:57:11] <Phae>
Which is why they grab hiden value?
- [17:57:21] <Phae>
hidden values*
- [17:57:23] <pnhChris>
(sorry.. poor response.. but not much else to say on that one)
- [17:57:25] <Phae>
man, I should sit up.
- [17:57:32] <bewest>
Phae: yes, but the source of a page can change at any time
- [17:57:48] <bewest>
I have a mapping application that dynamically puts hcards on the page
- [17:58:15] <Phae>
oh
- [17:58:25] <bewest>
there are permalinks to all views of data, but why should someone have to reload just to catch them before the map starts up
- [17:59:03] * tantek_ is not quite sure of the point of the line of questioning.
- [17:59:06] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
- [17:59:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [17:59:34] <tantek>
on another topic, I'm starting to braindump my original thoughts on hReview parsing
- [17:59:38] <pnhChris>
i'm still trying to understand why, for properties that look for text values alt is ignored
- [17:59:57] <pnhChris>
which brought up image replacement techniques
- [18:00:06] <pnhChris>
and "when" does something get parsed
- [18:00:06] <tantek>
pnhChris, it is only ignored on *nested* alts
- [18:00:15] <tantek>
and the reason is simplicity
- [18:00:26] <pnhChris>
right
- [18:00:29] <pnhChris>
but
- [18:00:47] <pnhChris>
lots of ways to code around it
- [18:01:10] <pnhChris>
just doesn't seem to /fit/ the way i've always looked at things
- [18:01:13] <pnhChris>
that's all
- [18:01:19] <pnhChris>
as for run time parsing
- [18:01:27] <pnhChris>
that's a issue i wouldn't want to have to think about
- [18:01:59] <pnhChris>
if you're using sfir to replace all blog headlines
- [18:02:14] <pnhChris>
with flash
- [18:02:24] * n41 (n=Miranda@svs15.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) Quit ("Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org")
- [18:03:00] <pnhChris>
or bewest enhances his app to replace peoples names
- [18:03:54] * pnhChris shrugs
- [18:04:04] <pnhChris>
that was bewest's care, not mine
- [18:04:13] * AdamCraven (n=Gr1m@bb-87-81-108-8.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:05:06] <bewest>
:-)
- [18:05:11] <bewest>
I'm easily distracted
- [18:07:01] <pnhChris>
it kinda concerns me.. just a little.. as the latest protoype for PNH does a little bit of SFIR and has a little bit of dom reordering to tweak layout on the fly
- [18:07:09] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
- [18:07:14] <pnhChris>
but not a big one
- [18:12:54] <pnhChris>
especially becuase as is typical i'll usually get bored with it before getting around to actually building it :P
- [18:13:38] <bewest>
maybe those details can be sorted out by parsers themselves
- [18:14:26] <bewest>
<meta name="parser_foo_options" content="image_replacement" />
- [18:24:16] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7747 * Tantek * (+608) reorganized related documents to be similar to hCard
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- [18:28:12] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [18:28:39] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [18:28:40] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
- [18:32:56] * yakk (n=nnnnnnnn@205.217.153.71) has joined #microformats
- [18:32:56] <jibot>
yakk is a big fat liar and a hater
- [18:33:02] <yakk>
its so true
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- [18:58:50] <cgriego>
has there been any discussion about enabling hAtom parsing to be done in reverse when entries on a page are in chronological order instead of reverse chronological order?
- [19:00:38] <mfbot>
[[hreview-parsing]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-parsing * Tantek * (+2506) partial draft
- [19:04:54] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7748 * Tantek * (-3) clarified that fn is required in the field summary
- [19:05:12] <cgriego>
no? thoughts?
- [19:11:30] <tantek>
has nothing to do with parsing
- [19:11:41] <tantek>
the updated property tells you the date
- [19:11:47] <tantek>
you can then reorder however you like
- [19:20:39] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) Quit ()
- [19:22:06] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7749 * Tantek * (-122) some cleanup
- [19:25:49] <AdamCraven>
kingryan as regards to the rating star picker. Removing the use of the 'a' elements will stop IE6 and below from using the limited pseudo elements it already has, as IE can only use the pseduo classes with the pseudo element. The alternative would be to make it a non-css based solution, and use some unobtrusive JavaScript.
- [19:26:07] <AdamCraven>
*with the 'a' element
- [19:26:25] <kingryan>
I wouldn't mind unobtrusive javascript
- [19:26:45] <AdamCraven>
great - I'll get to work on that over the next week or so
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- [19:32:54] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
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- [20:33:07] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
- [20:33:08] <jibot>
deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [20:34:55] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [20:34:55] <jibot>
drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
- [20:35:19] <deanero>
def? deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
- [20:36:07] <deanero>
?forget deanero
- [20:36:08] <jibot>
I need at least 3 words with an 'is' in the middle
- [20:36:30] <deanero>
?forget deanero is Dean Hudson, who works with musicians and record labels on all things internet
- [20:36:31] <jibot>
I no longer know anything about deanero
- [20:36:50] <deanero>
?def deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
- [20:36:51] <jibot>
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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- [21:37:05] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7750 * Tantek * (-39) removed unnecessary class=categories for simplification
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- [22:13:30] <drewinthehead>
question! rachel's writing a microformat for a UK consumer-level magazine .. what do you guys think the best beginner-level demos are?
- [22:13:46] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
- [22:13:47] <jibot>
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
- [22:13:55] <drewinthehead>
she's got Tails already
- [22:14:19] <drewinthehead>
and she's going to cover tantek's kitchen and pingorati
- [22:14:41] <bewest>
drewinthehead: I think the MS Live stuff is a good demo
- [22:14:54] <drewinthehead>
the live clipboard, bewest ?
- [22:15:03] <bewest>
copy/pasting records from/to FF/IE is cool
- [22:15:03] <kingryan>
and x2v is always nice
- [22:15:07] <bewest>
I think people get that
- [22:15:44] <drewinthehead>
of course .. x2v
- [22:15:53] <drewinthehead>
woods/trees etc
- [22:16:19] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) Quit (Client Quit)
- [22:16:33] <bewest>
is x2v good for consumer-level though?
- [22:17:05] <kingryan>
yeah
- [22:17:07] <drewinthehead>
in implementation form
- [22:17:12] <kingryan>
because consumers have address books
- [22:17:15] <kingryan>
and calendars
- [22:17:30] <drewinthehead>
being about to add a 'save my details to your address book' link to your page is compelling
- [22:17:33] <bewest>
kingryan: and they understand what vcard is?
- [22:17:41] <kingryan>
they don't need to
- [22:17:44] <bewest>
oh okok
- [22:17:48] <kingryan>
"look it imports to your address book!"
- [22:17:54] * kingryan waves hands vigorously
- [22:17:56] * drewinthehead apologises for using the word 'compelling'
- [22:17:58] <Phae>
if they did, they probably wouldn't be reading an article about it in a consumer magazine
- [22:18:22] <bewest>
*drone like* look it imports to my address book
- [22:18:56] <bewest>
drewinthehead: I like the austion.adactio thing
- [22:19:06] <bewest>
and DanC's thing... where it automatically puts stuff on a map
- [22:20:11] <drewinthehead>
ah yes, something with mapping
- [22:21:27] <briansuda>
http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-kml.php?uri=http://austin.adactio.com that will give you a KML file
- [22:21:34] <drewinthehead>
what's DanC's thing?
- [22:21:34] <briansuda>
you can then pass that through Google Maps
- [22:21:41] <drewinthehead>
oh cool
- [22:22:13] <briansuda>
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=http://suda.co.uk/projects/X2V/get-kml.php%3Furi%3Dhttp://austin.adactio.com&ie=UTF8&om=1
- [22:22:25] <briansuda>
it is not production ready, but i am working on it in am freetime
- [22:22:31] <drewinthehead>
i think that might be a bit advanced for the audience to grok
- [22:22:40] <briansuda>
instant Google mash-ups with geo microformats
- [22:22:46] <briansuda>
no DOM knowledge needed
- [22:22:56] <drewinthehead>
but DOM is fun! ;)
- [22:24:22] <bewest>
get-kml
- [22:24:23] <bewest>
nifty
- [22:24:29] <drewinthehead>
i'm hearing a barrage of abuse for our beloved wiki coming across the room.
- [22:24:29] <bewest>
briansuda: nice
- [22:24:38] <bewest>
oh damn
- [22:24:45] <bewest>
I was working on something like that
- [22:24:47] <briansuda>
cheers
- [22:24:57] <bewest>
I didn't know google maps let you pass in another resource
- [22:24:59] <bewest>
directly
- [22:25:03] <bewest>
I was going to build that piece
- [22:25:07] <bewest>
damnit
- [22:25:19] <kingryan>
bewest: you keep getting thwarted
- [22:25:24] <bewest>
I know!
- [22:25:42] <bewest>
I going to grow potatoes
- [22:25:56] <kingryan>
I think someone's done that before
- [22:26:08] <drewinthehead>
i've done geo->GPX
- [22:26:10] <briansuda>
yahoo! does the same thing now with GeoRSS
- [22:26:22] <briansuda>
that will be my next XSLT file
- [22:26:36] <bewest>
only kml though?
- [22:26:38] <bewest>
hmmm
- [22:26:54] <bewest>
I've been thinking of starting work on a gdata -> microformats xslt
- [22:27:05] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) Quit ("gotta run, quittin' time")
- [22:27:24] <bewest>
I like doing user interfaces though
- [22:27:52] <bewest>
when did google maps start taking external resources?
- [22:33:02] <bewest>
I'm curious: anyone around here use Literate Programming techniques? eg cweb, ctangle, cweave, noweb...
- [22:34:46] <Phae>
night all
- [22:35:14] <drewinthehead>
night Phae
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- [22:38:33] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
- [22:41:32] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [22:41:32] <jibot>
Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
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- [23:02:59] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [23:04:56] <KevinMarks>
does <cite> have a cite property?
- [23:05:06] <KevinMarks>
er attribute?
- [23:05:19] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:06:30] <drewinthehead>
no, KevinMarks
- [23:06:54] <KevinMarks>
I thought not
- [23:07:05] <kingryan>
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/text.html#h-9.2.1
- [23:07:07] <drewinthehead>
that would be plain madness :)
- [23:09:04] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
- [23:09:04] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [23:09:07] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [23:14:09] <jibot>
deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
- [23:14:16] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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- [23:16:19] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [23:39:45] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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