IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

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[00:07:12] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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[00:21:57] <factoryjoe> http://www.flickr.com/photos/friedster/197232736/#comment72157594210310103
[00:23:40] <briansuda> go get 'em! hCalender != iCalendar
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[00:31:52] <tantek> it's odd too
[00:32:06] <tantek> supporting hCalendar is both less work and more useful than supporting iCalendar
[00:32:13] <tantek> ah well
[00:33:20] <briansuda> the only downside, is that you have to login to backpack. if you were to pass that to feeds.technorti it would fail because your server hasn't authenticated
[00:33:37] <briansuda> it works well with Tails, but i think tails export just passes it to the webservice
[00:33:48] <briansuda> i'm not sure there is a complete client-side converter
[00:36:37] <tantek> they could always run their own install of X2V
[00:36:40] <tantek> that's the point
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[00:38:14] <briansuda> very true.
[00:38:25] <factoryjoe> yeah
[00:38:27] <factoryjoe> and they should
[00:38:38] <factoryjoe> it's effed up that i can't have one login across my backpacks and basecamps
[00:38:49] <factoryjoe> nor can i easily transfer company info from one to another
[00:39:15] <briansuda> openID *cough* *cough*
[00:39:28] <factoryjoe> already on it
[00:39:30] <factoryjoe> btw
[00:39:36] <factoryjoe> seen the $5000 bounty for implementing openid?
[00:39:44] <factoryjoe> if someone implements it for mediawiki
[00:39:48] <factoryjoe> or the microformats.org wiki...
[00:39:48] * briansuda was just about to say the same thing
[00:39:51] <factoryjoe> someone's cashin' in
[00:39:57] <briansuda> there is a media wiki version in progress
[00:40:02] <factoryjoe> probably
[00:40:21] <briansuda> DanC had a link a few days ago about that...
[00:42:11] <factoryjoe> oh?
[00:42:12] <factoryjoe> huh
[00:42:23] <factoryjoe> btw, any thoughts about lucas gonze's media format?
[00:43:11] <briansuda> http://www.windley.com/archives/2006/04/openid_and_medi.shtml looks like there is a media wiki patch for openID
[00:43:38] <briansuda> no, not much thought about the media-format at the moment... still trying to catch-up on other work
[00:44:04] <factoryjoe> did you see his implementation?
[00:44:16] <factoryjoe> also, thoughts on Popup Politicians?
[00:44:29] <briansuda> i did have a look at popup politicians
[00:45:02] <briansuda> while it isn't my cup of tea, i think it makes things VERY simple for people to mention a work, tag it, and have their javascript do the rest
[00:45:23] <factoryjoe> yeah
[00:45:27] <factoryjoe> i think it's a great proof of concept
[00:45:35] <KevinMarks> I do like that approach, javascript decorators
[00:45:45] <factoryjoe> still not certain about whether rel-tag makes sense
[00:45:46] <factoryjoe> or hcard
[00:45:50] <factoryjoe> but it's good nonetheless
[00:45:51] <briansuda> it kinda or reminds me of those sites that add hyperlinks after the page loads to key words sprinkled throughout, or to link to definitions
[00:46:08] <factoryjoe> yeah
[00:46:09] <briansuda> without looking at their JS file, i bet that is their
[00:46:11] <factoryjoe> i hate that
[00:46:12] <briansuda> "hooK"
[00:46:58] <briansuda> with google maps "bubbles" becoming popular, i think more people will be used to this, and it degrades nicely
[00:47:10] <briansuda> well, actually, were does the link go?
[00:47:17] <factoryjoe> yeah
[00:47:21] <factoryjoe> and how is this not XSS?
[00:47:24] <factoryjoe> or is it?
[00:47:29] <factoryjoe> but a *good* use?
[00:47:49] <briansuda> well, you are including it in your own code so you'd best know what you are doing.
[00:48:13] <briansuda> technorati claim and google ad words work in a similar way
[00:48:48] <briansuda> it is possible that after you have already linked to the .js on their server, they COULD swap the code to do something malicious.
[00:49:05] <briansuda> the other option is to copy it and save it locally
[00:49:34] <briansuda> google analytics works in this fashion
[00:50:22] <factoryjoe> mm
[00:50:36] <factoryjoe> this could also be done as an extension?
[00:50:50] <briansuda> a browser extension?
[00:50:59] <factoryjoe> where you list trusted sources for the "bubble fill" content
[00:51:01] <factoryjoe> sure
[00:51:06] <factoryjoe> like anywhere that you see rel-tag
[00:51:23] <factoryjoe> you hover over and it pulls in results from your tagspace
[00:51:46] <briansuda> sure, you could have it prefetch the data from wikipedia or another source and display it in the bubble on hover
[00:52:08] <briansuda> that is basically how Tails works, it finds the data and reformats it.
[00:52:34] <briansuda> only this would find rel-tag and go fetch and style the data from a trusted source(s) and display them either in a bubble or tab, etc.
[00:53:25] * briansuda thinks i smell ideas bubbling
[00:53:36] <AdamCraven> boo
[00:53:40] <AdamCraven> hiss
[00:54:01] <factoryjoe> AdamCraven: what's up fella?
[00:54:29] * briansuda need to learn to type in third-person
[00:54:45] <AdamCraven> haha, I was just letting briansuda's pun not go unnoticed
[01:01:25] <briansuda> XSS (i think of it as) more like SQL injection, where in a form you manage to add some sort of javascript.
[01:01:29] <briansuda> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XSS
[01:03:55] <factoryjoe> mm
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[01:10:58] * tantek_ goes to write up some hReview issues and thoughts for v0.4
[01:12:28] <factoryjoe> tantek what're your thoughts on the hResume stuff?
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[01:15:06] <tantek_> factoryjoe, could you be more specific than "stuff"?
[01:15:23] <factoryjoe> the wordpress plugin
[01:15:28] <factoryjoe> have you looked at it?
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[01:27:06] <tantek_> haven't had a chance
[01:27:11] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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[01:27:19] <tantek> I think Ryan has taken a look though.
[01:27:57] <alexandermuse> Alex here - we will release an updated WP plugin tomorrow.
[01:28:16] <tantek> hi alex!
[01:28:41] <alexandermuse> Adding country code for all of the non-US folks (got like 20 emails from people outside of the US hating on us for forgetting them). Also, Fred is cleaning CSS. Hi Tantek!
[01:29:50] <alexandermuse> Chris: get a chance to install the plugin? Thoughts, suggestions, comments?
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[01:30:17] <alexandermuse> Emurse is getting us a URI to put in the pinger as a default...
[01:30:57] <factoryjoe> alexandermuse: not yet
[01:31:55] <alexandermuse> Oh, we received pings from 48 installs today - i.e. atleast 48 blogs now pinging us with hResume markup.
[01:34:55] <factoryjoe> nice
[01:42:23] <tantek> alexander, is the plugin pinging resumes.pingerati.net ?
[01:42:43] <tantek> if you can email me where you want pings sent to, I can also make sure that pingerati sends them on
[01:43:28] <tantek> Please make sure the plugin is pinging resumes.pingerati.net to make sure the pings are distributed.
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[01:52:43] <mfbot> [[hreview-brainstorming]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/hreview-brainstorming * Tantek * (+1911) separated from review-brainstorming
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[01:56:57] <alexandermuse> Tantek - the coder said resumes.pingerati.net would not accept xml-rpc pings. He suggest it was only Gets...
[01:57:09] <tantek> that's by design
[01:57:13] <alexandermuse> right
[01:57:16] <tantek> there is no reason to do xml-rpc
[01:57:22] <davemorin> whats up guys
[01:57:32] <tantek> it's more work for no reason
[01:57:33] <alexandermuse> I understand, but when I wrote the spec...
[01:57:38] <tantek> what spec?
[01:57:43] <alexandermuse> for the coder.
[01:57:52] <alexandermuse> I included it and not http get.
[01:58:07] <alexandermuse> So it was hard enough getting it done per the spec.
[01:58:13] <alexandermuse> Perhaps in our next version.
[01:58:18] <tantek> that would be great
[01:59:19] <davemorin> hey tantek, have some quick questions for ya
[01:59:22] <tantek> is the plugin open source?
[01:59:23] <davemorin> if you have a moment
[01:59:29] <alexandermuse> yep
[01:59:31] <alexandermuse> GPL
[01:59:49] <tantek> davemorin, please go ahead with your microformats questions, you don't necessarily need me to answer them :)
[01:59:54] <tantek> alexander, thanks that helps
[02:00:01] <tantek> so anyone in the community could add that then?
[02:00:04] <davemorin> its more about technorati
[02:00:07] <tantek> the get ping support
[02:00:11] <davemorin> messina told me to ping you here
[02:00:18] <davemorin> we met at that sushi place a few weeks back
[02:00:20] * tantek points davemorin to the #technorati channel
[02:00:26] <alexandermuse> :)
[02:01:17] <alexandermuse> Tantek: if we ping Technorati will it automatically forward the info to pingerati? Eric told me the FAQ suggested that instead. I think he included the Technorati URI in the pinger.
[02:01:37] <tantek> no the key is to ping resumes.pingerati.net
[02:02:01] <tantek> which will then distribute the pings to technorati and anyone else who wants resume pings
[02:02:05] <tantek> that's the whole point of pingerati
[02:02:12] <tantek> to be a distributor of microformats updates pings
[02:02:25] <davemorin> that's the same thign i'm having problems with
[02:02:34] <davemorin> my blog isnt updating in technorati listings
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[02:16:04] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
[02:16:55] <mfbot> [[hreview-brainstorming]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7751 * Tantek * (+1486) added a few thoughts for hReview 0.4
[02:19:01] <mfbot> [[hreview]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=7752 * Tantek * (+100) added hReview brainstorming link
[02:19:32] <mfbot> [[review-brainstorming]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=review-brainstorming&diff=0&oldid=7753 * Tantek * (-1632) moved hReview iteration and brainstorming to its own page
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[03:34:47] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[04:32:15] * Topic is 'Y! Local supports microformats! http://ylocalblog.com/blog/2006/06/21/we-now-support-microformats/ || add yourself to http://microformats.org/wiki/irc || http://www.digital-web.com/articles/microformats_primer/ | Channel is logged: http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot'
[04:32:15] * Set by tantek on Wed Jun 21 23:34:49 CEST 2006
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[06:43:10] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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[06:56:43] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
[07:02:25] <mfbot> [[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=7754 * Victor Welling * (+176) Examples in the wild -
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[07:56:14] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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[08:03:31] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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[08:08:47] <McNulty> morning
[08:10:02] <tantek> evening
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[08:10:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[08:20:54] <drewinthehead> tantek: i've been using the colloquy 2.1 beta for a couple of weeks and have found it to be more stable than the stable release.
[08:23:05] <trovster> Hey drew, I was thinking about this URL first idea, for say commenting, to fetch and hCards from the URL pasted, and a few issues.
[08:23:29] <drewinthehead> oh, great
[08:23:32] <trovster> :D
[08:23:40] <drewinthehead> what issues did you come up with?
[08:24:00] <trovster> Well, not technical issues, more theory related.
[08:24:34] <drewinthehead> they're the best ;)
[08:24:35] <McNulty> It might be worth considering how that might play with OpenID. After all, in OpenID logins you're already providing a URL that is 'you'
[08:25:18] <trovster> First off, the page they might provide might not be the root, which is often used, instead a contact page (simply to grab the hCard details). If you put in a non-root URL, would it replace the comment URL with a URL you present in the hCard?
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[08:26:04] <drewinthehead> i think that's a UI issue ... we need to develop a method of letting the user know what might happen
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[08:30:01] <jibot> mn_francis is a web developer for Yahoo! Europe; http://cackhanded.net/ is his personal site
[08:30:42] <trovster> OK, the other issue is a storage one. Say for your URL or avatar, would these be requested every time your comment is shown? gravatars pull from a central resource, so if I change it, it will update on sites. However, other details are usually stored in DBs, so aren't easily globally changed...
[08:31:48] <drewinthehead> perhaps there's a middle ground - cache the details until that person next posts
[08:32:04] <drewinthehead> (that's what gravatars should do imho)
[08:33:47] <McNulty> seeing as comments are timestamped, should they update at all?
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[08:42:52] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
[08:43:17] <drewinthehead> i think that would be ok, McNulty
[08:43:19] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7755 * JoeAndrieu * (+1135) What are microformats? -
[08:43:33] <drewinthehead> the historic record is of the comment, not the contact details that go along with it
[08:43:39] <drewinthehead> 'lo Whiskey_M
[08:43:45] <mfbot> [[what-are-microformats]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=what-are-microformats&diff=0&oldid=7756 * JoeAndrieu * (-4) Joe Andrieu -
[08:44:18] <JoeAndrieu> hey, that's cool.
[08:46:19] <drewinthehead> back in an hour or so
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[10:02:29] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I used to post on a messageboard where, every time you changed your .sig, it changed all the historical posts and it really pissed off the users
[10:02:35] <McNulty> I think people like the historical record...
[10:05:22] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has joined #microformats
[10:05:23] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
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[10:09:59] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I used to post on a messageboard where, every time you changed your .sig,
[10:09:59] <McNulty> it changed all the historical posts and it really pissed off the users
[10:10:15] <McNulty> I think people like the historical record, certainly for avatar images
[10:11:04] <drewinthehead> worth researching if gravatar has had similar issues
[10:11:36] * Phae (n=phae@85-210-23-226.dsl.pipex.com) has joined #microformats
[10:11:36] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
[10:19:00] <drewinthehead> mornin' Phae
[10:19:37] <drewinthehead> McNulty: it could be an option, import vs subscribe
[10:19:42] <Phae> Good morning Drew.
[10:21:26] <McNulty> drewinthehead - there seem to be two issues that I might be conflating
[10:21:40] <McNulty> 1 - If a user gives me a URL, do I fetch it once or every time
[10:21:55] <McNulty> 2 - If a user re-submits their URL, do I update their historical data
[10:22:04] <McNulty> actually 2 is more like
[10:22:15] <McNulty> 2 - if the data at the URL changes, do I apply the change to their historical data?
[10:22:47] <McNulty> My preference would be 1 - every time, 2 - only apply changes to new comments/whatever
[10:22:51] <drewinthehead> 1 - store. anything else is http lunacy
[10:23:02] <McNulty> drewinthehead - hm
[10:23:48] <McNulty> it's a shame that there's no way of having an HTTP 'if hCard not modified since'
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[10:24:08] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
[10:24:15] <McNulty> i suppose you could offer the user an 'update my details' interface in their prefs somewhere
[10:24:25] <drewinthehead> else, if a thread has, say 30 comments, that's <=30 URLs to fetch and parse per page load
[10:24:57] <drewinthehead> yes, that was my thinking behind only updating when they post
[10:25:15] <drewinthehead> presume they want to update and just take the queue next time they interact
[10:25:19] <drewinthehead> cue.
[10:26:09] <drewinthehead> i actually think gravatars are http lunacy, too
[10:26:21] <Phae> Sometimes I wish I was smart enough not to have to use wordpress.
[10:26:51] <Phae> Gravatars are sort of neat. It's silly, but it's easy to be someone else with them though.
[10:28:47] <drewinthehead> gravatars are cool .. but they should be cached
[10:29:02] <drewinthehead> unfortunately the gravatar service doesn't make that easy to implement
[10:29:18] <Phae> I looked at a gravatar plugin, and I thought it had an option to cache.
[10:29:31] <McNulty> oh, I meant update each time they post, rather than each page load
[10:29:47] <McNulty> I just meant if they have a persistent user account, do you update when they post or update when they *register*
[10:30:00] <Phae> Register.
[10:30:07] <Phae> It's unusual to see update settings when oyu post.
[10:30:07] <drewinthehead> ah, sorry McNulty - i thought you were talking about every page load
[10:30:55] <drewinthehead> but if it's just an automatic background reimport of your hCard i think it could be done each time they post
[10:33:28] <drewinthehead> anyone got any bright ideas how gravatar could be replaced with hCard@photo?
[10:35:31] <Phae> What's the problem with doing that?
[10:36:26] <drewinthehead> gravatars have the advantages of: a) known size, b) rated, c) don't require the user to have a website
[10:36:37] <Phae> aye
[10:37:02] <drewinthehead> hCard has the advantages of being: a) open, b) distributed
[10:37:32] <Phae> mm.. perfect couple. send them down the aisle.
[10:38:23] <drewinthehead> we can tackle the known size bit, as hCard photos use (duh) the html img element, which has width and height data .. so we can resize and store
[10:39:09] <drewinthehead> ratings are trickier ...
[10:39:48] <Phae> how does the ratings thing work then? Is the image just labeled as such?
[10:43:45] <drewinthehead> yes, it uses the US movie ratings system
[10:44:08] <drewinthehead> users submit a gravatar, and the gravatar lot have a team of moderators
[10:44:43] <drewinthehead> it's useful - i have a site that uses gravatars that i no way want anything not family-friendly on, and this gives me that
[10:48:03] <Phae> Yeah, I know that, but how does it let whoever is grabbing the gravatars know what is and what isn't safe?
[10:48:13] <Phae> Is it all done at their end?
[10:51:08] <drewinthehead> ah, becuase you make a request with a maximum rating you want as a param
[10:51:29] <drewinthehead> so it returns your default image if the user is above that rating
[10:52:08] <drewinthehead> so it's done as part of the GET for the image
[10:53:12] <Phae> okay.
[10:54:55] <drewinthehead> (sorry, wasn't attempting to patronise .. I do that *all* the time .. i'm missing some important brain part)
[10:55:12] <Phae> no, it's fine. I know you're not. I didn't phrase my query too well.
[10:55:35] <Phae> Uh, okay. So I got that. What's the problem with hCards and ratings then/
[10:55:47] <Phae> I'm assuming you don't want to store an x-rated photo in your outlook contacts anyway.
[10:56:16] <drewinthehead> well ... ;)
[10:56:25] <drewinthehead> someone might!
[10:56:40] <drewinthehead> in a perfect world i'd like to think users could rate their own images
[10:56:47] <Phae> Right. I see. You want to be able to serve all pictures, regardless of ratings, to some users.
[10:57:32] <Phae> That's not gonna happen with gravatars atm.
[10:58:08] <drewinthehead> it would probably be naïve to assume that people won't want to have x-rated avatars for some purposes
[10:58:17] <Phae> I agree.
[10:58:24] * drewinthehead shudders
[10:58:26] <Phae> heh
[10:58:48] <Phae> We see gravatars on our nice family-friendly blogs, but I'm sure they're used on much more "specialist" sites too :)
[11:00:07] <Phae> I don't see how it would work with the way gravatars currently do, since the x-rated images never even make it to the host site. Gravatars would need new functionality to let people log in and change what they receive or something.
[11:01:42] <drewinthehead> you've lost me slightly
[11:02:24] <McNulty> Phae - you mean to let users set their own acceptable level
[11:02:31] <Phae> no, nm.. I just don't get how you're going to let some people see all images.
[11:02:32] <Phae> yes, MarkB
[11:02:34] <Phae> oops. mcknut
[11:02:39] <Phae> lol. too many mc!
[11:02:58] * McNulty only changed to McNulty because Ciaran was taken :-(
[11:03:06] <Phae> What're the chances.
[11:03:31] <drewinthehead> with gravatars, you get the X-rated ones by requesting a max-rating of X
[11:03:59] <Phae> The owner of the site does, yeah. Me, visiting your site, with family rating, can't get the x-rated images. Right?
[11:04:32] <McNulty> I guess you'll just have to live with it Phae ;-)
[11:04:52] <Phae> heh. I think I'll cope, personally.
[11:05:57] <drewinthehead> no, the rating thing goes of the preference off the site implementing gravatars, not any individual visiting the site (if i get what you're saying)
[11:06:15] <Phae> Yeah, we're saying the same thing now, I think.
[11:06:17] <McNulty> If your site has user login, a logged-in user could have a 'show me the pr0n' checkbox
[11:06:24] <drewinthehead> that's an interesting thought though .. hmm
[11:06:31] <McNulty> you just set the SRC of the images right
[11:06:32] <Phae> I thought what you wanted was to allow users to get whichever images THEY wanted, which as it stands, can't be done.
[11:06:51] <drewinthehead> no, but i do want that now :)
[11:07:02] <Phae> Yeah, that's what I was thinking, McNulty, but gravatars don't have that option as it stands.
[11:07:07] <Phae> hehe drew. :P
[11:07:19] <drewinthehead> and a pony, please
[11:07:27] <Phae> I think I can organise a pony.
[11:09:21] <drewinthehead> yay!
[11:09:40] <drewinthehead> so do you think users can be trusted to rate their own images?
[11:09:59] <McNulty> nope
[11:10:02] <Phae> no.
[11:10:08] <Phae> I don't think the ratings system should be changed.
[11:10:13] <Phae> It seems to work nicely how it is.
[11:11:49] <Phae> It's one of those things that would benefit from a global web login, but since that's years off... :( Say on my site, you can sign up, so you can save your details or submit whatever you like. It'd be nice, if on signup, you could set what gravatar rating you wanted to view.
[11:12:02] <Phae> If on signin* even.
[11:12:21] <drewinthehead> so that requires a centralised element still ...?
[11:12:47] <Phae> Yeah, I guess. I can't say I'd probably bother. I have to remember enough logins and stuff as it is, without signing up for every blog I read.
[11:12:50] <Phae> It's not a pretty solution.
[11:12:51] <McNulty> it's like expecting all the porno sites to jump to the .xxx TLD
[11:13:02] <drewinthehead> at the moment, we're all screwed when gravatar.com falls over
[11:13:07] <Phae> Yeah.
[11:13:12] <drewinthehead> (which happens quite often)
[11:13:22] <Phae> To be honest, I can't see a nice solution.
[11:13:31] <McNulty> Phae - the login thing is partly solved by OpenID
[11:13:38] <Phae> I think we're stuck with whatever the site owner chooses to solve.
[11:13:48] <Phae> solve* serve
[11:13:49] <Phae> man.
[11:13:51] <McNulty> It lets you have a unified login for most loosely secured situations
[11:13:58] <Phae> Yeah, indeed.
[11:14:26] <McNulty> Seeing as your username is a URL, a service could get all your hCard info etc. from that location
[11:14:41] <McNulty> in one fell swoop
[11:14:44] <Phae> For OpenID? Not everyone that submits has a URL though.
[11:14:58] <McNulty> is that right? I thought that was how it works
[11:14:59] <Phae> In normal blog response circumstances.
[11:15:02] * drewinthehead will not submit!
[11:15:04] <Phae> heh
[11:15:19] <Phae> My mother for example, comments on my blog sometimes.. she only includes an email address, and isn't about to use OpenID
[11:15:28] <McNulty> oh
[11:15:30] <McNulty> yeah with you
[11:15:39] <McNulty> But, why not?
[11:15:51] <Phae> Because my mum only comments on my blog as far as I know.
[11:16:09] <Phae> It's an extra level of complication for her, probably.
[11:16:23] <Phae> I dunno. I could force her. :)
[11:16:23] <McNulty> But putting a URL to her hCard isn't?
[11:16:25] <McNulty> :-)
[11:16:32] <McNulty> what are we talking about again?
[11:16:44] <Phae> lol. I don't know! Back track.
[11:16:50] <Phae> My mother isn't important.
[11:16:56] <McNulty> aw, don't say that
[11:16:59] <Phae> heh
[11:17:16] <McNulty> We were loosely talking about people providing a URL for their identity when commenting
[11:17:19] <Phae> I like to think in real-world examples, and of people not like us, tha'ts all. :)
[11:17:25] <McNulty> and I was saying that you do that with OpenID anyhow
[11:17:32] <Phae> Aye, okay.
[11:17:36] <McNulty> IF your mom doesn't have an OpenID
[11:17:53] <McNulty> you can offer her a login for your blog, that would then allow her to post on other blogs using that as her OpenID
[11:18:07] <Phae> I guess.
[11:18:09] <McNulty> and provide an hCard with whatever registration details you asked her for when she registered
[11:18:18] <Phae> Okay, fair do's.
[11:18:30] <McNulty> phae.com/mrsphae
[11:18:30] <Phae> hehe.
[11:20:04] <Phae> Still need to modify gravatars service.
[11:20:13] * cori[s] (n=cori@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit (" Death before decaf!")
[11:20:37] <drewinthehead> are there any parallels to the ratings problem?
[11:20:50] <Phae> hmm
[11:21:30] <drewinthehead> what if you could get your image rated and get back some kind of magic key that could be checked with any number of servers
[11:21:51] <Phae> Explain.
[11:22:04] <drewinthehead> that was about as in depth as i'd got ;)
[11:22:07] <Phae> heh
[11:22:19] <drewinthehead> so i send my avatar to get rated
[11:22:43] <Phae> Yeah.. and you get a pretty key...
[11:22:46] <Phae> and the key does what/
[11:22:51] <drewinthehead> i get back a rating and a magic string
[11:22:51] <drewinthehead> right
[11:22:59] <drewinthehead> i add that to my hCard somehow
[11:23:25] <drewinthehead> when i comment on someone's blog, my hCard and avatar gets fetched
[11:23:29] <McNulty> <img src="http://myratingservice.com/http://ciaranmcnulty.com/avatar.gif"> ?
[11:23:35] <Phae> you mean a hard line to the image?
[11:23:38] <Phae> Okay.
[11:23:46] <drewinthehead> then something happens ...
[11:23:50] <drewinthehead> step 3: profit.
[11:23:53] <Phae> heh
[11:24:40] <drewinthehead> that's an interesting thought, McNulty
[11:24:41] <McNulty> <img src="http://filterservice/childsafe/http://phae.com/avatar.gif"> <-- would serve default img until you registered with the service and got cleared by a moderator
[11:24:53] <Phae> okay
[11:25:00] <drewinthehead> so who runs the filter service?
[11:25:00] <McNulty> where the filterservice could be prepended by the blog?
[11:25:07] <McNulty> anyone, it's just a URL
[11:25:24] <McNulty> the blog would stick it into the avatars
[11:25:26] <drewinthehead> so i could run my own which approves x-rated images to kiddie sites
[11:25:51] <McNulty> yes but the kiddie site would be prepending the avatar IMGs' SRC with http://knownkiddiesafefilter.com
[11:26:05] <drewinthehead> ok
[11:26:13] <McNulty> which could serve 'BLOCKED', 'Awaiting approval' GIFs, or just the img
[11:26:21] <drewinthehead> so it's up to the site publisher to find a filter service they trust
[11:26:30] <McNulty> yes
[11:26:37] <McNulty> obv. the filter can take params for filter level
[11:26:42] <drewinthehead> so would each avatar have to be registered with every filter service?
[11:26:50] <McNulty> mmmmyeah
[11:26:52] <Phae> heh
[11:27:02] <McNulty> I would expect there would be certain filter services that would dominate...
[11:27:22] <drewinthehead> what if we send the fox and the grain across together, then bring the fox back?
[11:27:37] <McNulty> Say I go to your blog, right
[11:28:03] <McNulty> I make a post, I can forget about it
[11:28:16] <McNulty> Some time later, someone at the filter service gets to my avatar in the queue and rates it
[11:28:26] <McNulty> at which point it'll either start showing on your blog or will get blocked.
[11:28:34] <McNulty> I dunno what's in it for the filter service, mind you
[11:29:33] <McNulty> the blog owner could be running his own filter service, if he wants, or defer it to some other trusted party
[11:29:52] <McNulty> I'm not sure how the HTTP would work... you'd have to take into account people changing their avatar
[11:30:10] <drewinthehead> here's a thought
[11:30:33] <drewinthehead> so you have a central service that avatars are submitted to and rated
[11:30:48] <davecardwell> ala gravatar?
[11:30:49] <drewinthehead> that service provides no live filtering
[11:31:32] <drewinthehead> you then have satellite filtering services which import data from the central service daily / weekly / hourly
[11:31:54] <drewinthehead> those satellite services are the ones doing the live filtering
[11:32:15] <drewinthehead> if the central service has downtime, no big deal
[11:32:20] <McNulty> I was trying to avoid having a centralised authority :-/
[11:32:28] <McNulty> More of a 'web of trust' thing
[11:32:29] <drewinthehead> all the satellites have copies of the data
[11:32:48] <davecardwell> how about having an avatar based in a standard path of a website?
[11:32:51] <drewinthehead> yes, i was trying to avoid that too, McNulty
[11:36:14] <davecardwell> for example http://mydomain.com/avatar.png
[11:40:14] <McNulty> davecardwell - what does that buy you?
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> the problem we're trying to solve is that ratings system davecardwell
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> the publisher of the blog choses a filter service for their site
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> hCard gives us the photo
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> say myfilter.com
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> ah, in that case any filter service could be used chosen by the blogger
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> that filter service grabs the photo from the given url, and it is moderated there
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> an md5sum of the image is taken to check for changes to the image
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> so does the avatar have to be moderated by every single filter service?
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> yes
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> but as you said, a few will quickly dominate
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> depending on the features they offer
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> market forces 'n' all that
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> annoying for users :(
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> so replication will be minimal
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> perhaps create some standard method of sharing the moderation information
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> i guess services could peer
[11:40:14] <McNulty> drewinthehead - it has to be moderated by every service used by the blogs you post on
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> aye
[11:40:14] <McNulty> They could share data in the background
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> that way it is transparent to the user
[11:40:14] <McNulty> And you shouldn't have to *do* anything to get it moderated, I don't see the pain
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> and it will be in the blogger's interest to use the most popular filtering services
[11:40:14] <McNulty> yeah lazy kid sites will just use disneyfilter.com
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> unless the most popular is the slowest ;)
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> then they won't be the most popular
[11:40:14] <McNulty> I'm concerned about the filters having to analyze the data
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> at which point the load decreases and they speed up again
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> if it's all based on a standard api, it should be trivial for a blogger to switch services
[11:40:14] <McNulty> I'd hope that they'd be able to just do 30x reditects
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> in which case it would be in the filter service's interest to be scalable
[11:40:14] <McNulty> davecardwell - I dunno if there would need to be an API
[11:40:14] <McNulty> http://filter.com/http://server.com/myavatar.gif
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> well, the requests for an image could come in a standard form
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> that would be useful
[11:40:14] <McNulty> that's about it
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> yeah
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> so all a blogger would have to do is change filter.com to otherfilter.org
[11:40:14] <McNulty> you'd just need to rewrite your blog template
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> it needs caching build in by default .. that's a big problem with gravater at the moment
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> only in the one place the comment form template is defined
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> implementation docs should never give http://filter.com/http://server.com/myavatar.gif as a good example
[11:40:14] <McNulty> drewinthehead - I originally thought that the filter could just serve a 302 header
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> there's a dns overhead too
[11:40:14] <McNulty> but the user could swap out their image, you'd need the filter to keep re-validating it
[11:40:14] <McNulty> I guess the filter could cache at their end
[11:40:14] <Phae> My gravatar plugin, which I don't use, but still have installed, lets me cache images locally, by the looks of things.
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> think how much less load gravatar.com would be under if they'd showed people how to cache their images
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> the filter could just take a digest of the image
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> to make sure it hasn't changed
[11:40:14] <McNulty> davecardwell - is there a way of doing that without fetching the image each time though?
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> right, Phae ... that needs to be default
[11:40:14] <McNulty> assuming a malign server
[11:40:14] <Phae> It is on my plugin.
[11:40:14] <Phae> I assume that's not the case for others then.
[11:40:14] <davecardwell> if the blogger cached the avatars locally a check wouldn't be needed *every* time
[11:40:14] <drewinthehead> the gravatar.com implementation docs don't encourage caching
[11:40:14] <Phae> oh
[11:40:33] <drewinthehead> davecardwell: a check would only be needed periodically ... e.g. each time a user posts a new comment
[11:40:48] <McNulty> drewinthehead - good point
[11:40:53] <davecardwell> the filter could offer a web service alternative, whereby it returned true or not?
[11:41:01] <drewinthehead> it could
[11:41:14] <davecardwell> then it would be up to the blogger whether or not they decided to cache
[11:41:20] <davecardwell> or what they did with that information
[11:41:34] <McNulty> judicious use of the if-not-modified-since type headers would help out a lot
[11:42:34] <davecardwell> not sure what sort of business model the fitler could operative with?
[11:42:44] <davecardwell> at least gravatar can charge for extra email addresses
[11:42:59] <drewinthehead> that's up to the filter service to figure out
[11:43:13] <davecardwell> it's worth considering though
[11:43:16] <Phae> If they're a busy service, you might pay to fast-track your images in a review queue.
[11:46:19] <drewinthehead> the load shouldn't be astronomical
[11:48:20] <Phae> I dunno. There's not a vast amount of business features.
[11:48:20] <drewinthehead> as they're not serving the images
[11:48:20] <drewinthehead> a problem we identified earlier is that no everyone has a site to publish an hCard - so there's opportunity there
[11:48:20] <davecardwell> ah, true
[11:48:20] <Phae> mmhmm
[11:48:20] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
[11:48:20] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
[11:48:20] <drewinthehead> so, what about Phae's idea of visitor rating preference...?
[11:48:20] <davecardwell> lost that one in the scrollback
[11:48:20] <Phae> We were talking about a visitor to a blog setting which avatars they'd be happy to view
[11:48:20] <drewinthehead> the idea was that no only can the site owner decide what rating of image to show, but the visitor to the site could have a preference too (e.g. see-no-evil)
[11:48:20] <Phae> So, if they went to your blog, and they wanted to grab hCard info AND all the photos regardless of rating, they could.
[11:48:20] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[11:48:24] <Phae> Or visa versa, they went to a site that was allowing x-rated, but didn't want those images.
[11:48:29] <Phae> Which is probably more likely, perhaps.
[11:48:42] <davecardwell> hmm
[11:49:07] <davecardwell> browser plugin? :p
[11:49:14] <drewinthehead> we need a way to identify the user
[11:50:09] <drewinthehead> or, yes, something running at the client
[11:50:15] <Phae> I guess at the moment a browser plugin isn't so ridiculous, since most of us are grabbing hCard info via a plugin of some kind anywya.
[11:50:29] <davecardwell> a browser plugin that rewrites the url to the filter service
[11:50:34] <Phae> mm
[11:52:21] <drewinthehead> a mF for photo ratings?
[11:52:21] <davecardwell> or, perhaps the blogger could put a link to the filter servide they use somewhere on the page
[11:52:21] <davecardwell> following it sets a cookie for the filter site
[11:52:21] <Phae> Oh.. I see where you're going. That's not so silly.
[11:52:21] <Phae> Set the rating with the mF.
[11:52:21] <drewinthehead> if the images were written out with a rating, something at the client could choose to show/hide them
[11:52:21] <Phae> Yeah.
[11:52:21] <drewinthehead> requires nothing clever on the website
[11:52:21] <drewinthehead> could be a GM script at the client
[11:52:21] <drewinthehead> or a plugin, or just a smart browser
[11:52:21] <Phae> yea
[11:52:21] <davecardwell> or the cookie thing?
[11:52:35] <drewinthehead> anything with a cookie is probably going to get too complex
[11:53:16] <drewinthehead> you'd end up setting cookies for every service and get back to being reliant on a third party server to be alive
[11:54:10] <drewinthehead> a ratings mF could be useful for all sorts of things ... pr0n sites, even
[11:55:08] <drewinthehead> hasn't this already been done?
[11:55:11] <drewinthehead> content ratings?
[11:55:27] <Phae> hehe
[11:55:30] <drewinthehead> http://www.icra.org/
[11:56:23] <drewinthehead> woah .. no wonder that failed ... it's complex
[11:56:50] <davecardwell> I don't like icra
[11:56:54] <drewinthehead> class="rating-x" on any element would be simpler
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> that would depend on the site displaying the content to adhere to the ratings system
[12:04:43] <Phae> Okay, so that's cool.. but how would it work in practice? You're going to be showing all images by default.
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> they could still put a rating-pg on x-rated material
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> but I guess it's still better than nothing
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> it would depend on the nature of the site
[12:04:43] <Phae> Yeah, but you can't do much about misuse.
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> a porn site would show all images by default, unless a rating was present I suppose
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> the filtering is done by the user
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> whereas a blog might choose not to show pornographic material unless a rating of x was present
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> the site is just declaring what the content is
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> ah right, I see
[12:04:43] <Phae> I mean, default as in.. someone on a non-plugged in smart browser visiting your site. At the moment, a service like gravatar protects those users.
[12:04:43] <davecardwell> that makes a lot more sense
[12:04:43] <Phae> We wouldn't be.
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> good point Phae
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> but the site owner is still expressing whatever control they want
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> as with gravatars
[12:04:43] <Phae> Yea
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> the rating-x stuff is for the user preference to further restrict that
[12:04:43] <Phae> I realise that, but if you abandoned gravatars and started using a mF route, it'd be swish for those people with browsers that recognise the mF
[12:04:43] <Phae> Oh, okay.
[12:04:43] <Phae> I misunderstood slightly.
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> i see no reason why a site couldn't use <body class="rating-x">, even
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> then a user-agent configured to not show x-rated content would shield the user from the whole lot
[12:04:43] <Phae> heh, streaming the internet into ratings. :)
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> (won't someone think of the chil-der-ran!)
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> or is this all lunacy?
[12:04:43] <Phae> Not necessarily.
[12:04:43] <Phae> Probably a bit out of scope on your hCard thing though, where we started.
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> yes, but a useful deviation
[12:04:43] <Phae> I personally quite like the idea of having sites explicitly rated.
[12:04:43] <drewinthehead> if we were to propose a mF for ratings, we'd need to investigate what people currently do
[12:04:47] <Phae> Okay.
[12:04:48] <drewinthehead> and look at stuff like http://www.icra.org/
[12:04:55] <drewinthehead> and see why that's broken
[12:05:51] <drewinthehead> i think perhaps the problem with previous attempts is that they've tried to ensure a safe browsing experience
[12:06:50] <Phae> ICRA has really complex levels. You can be really precise about what your sites content is.
[12:07:03] <drewinthehead> i think all we'd want to propose is a method of limiting the chance of seeing stuff that offends you, when a site has been considerate enough to rate content
[12:07:27] <drewinthehead> i think movie ratings are a good model
[12:07:41] <drewinthehead> broad, well understood strokes
[12:07:44] <Phae> I think so too.
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[12:09:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
[12:10:08] <drewinthehead> ok, so should i start a brainstorming page on the wiki?
[12:10:09] <davecardwell> since you can specifiy many classes it would be possible to give a more complex indication of the content
[12:10:13] <davecardwell> ala ICRA
[12:10:36] <Phae> Go for it. I'm looking at ICRAs filter at the moment.
[12:10:37] <davecardwell> and then since you can give any element a class, you can really isolate potentially offensive content
[12:10:46] <Phae> Yeah.
[12:11:07] <drewinthehead> or perhaps we should throw the conversation wider on mf-discuss first
[12:11:23] <drewinthehead> (perhaps this has been tried already and failed for some reason)
[12:11:29] <Phae> I don't mind. Whatever you feel is appropriate.
[12:11:31] <davecardwell> you could, for example, make a page rating-moderated, but each of its comments rating-unmoderated
[12:11:38] <Phae> We ought to keep a list of "tried and failed" mFs
[12:11:39] <Phae> heh
[12:11:41] <davecardwell> and then change the latter once you've taken a look
[12:12:13] * mn_francis (n=mn_franc@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) Quit ()
[12:13:09] <Phae> Of course, the main problem we might come up against is that it's all author based ratings. There's no real checking or value of quality.
[12:13:17] <Phae> Which is where things like ICRA have us beat.
[12:13:54] <drewinthehead> well that's ok, because we're working from a default of 'unknown rating'
[12:14:03] <Phae> ok
[12:14:44] <drewinthehead> everything is potentially above an individual's comfortable rating level
[12:15:18] <drewinthehead> so there's nothing to be gained by putting rating-pg on rating-x content, any more than putting no rating on it
[12:15:27] <Phae> It's silly. I seem to always end up discussing nudity. I worked for deviantART way back when, and used to have irate parents on our case, because they serve nudity, which be default is visible to all, but is hard to detect as it's within an art site.
[12:16:08] <davecardwell> community sites often have a link you can press to mark content as potentially offensive
[12:16:13] <Phae> be=by
[12:16:24] <davecardwell> obviously not fool-rpoof
[12:16:29] <Phae> Yeah, they have that.
[12:16:48] <Phae> But a non-logged in user sees all, and by default the setting is off. It's partly their own fault.
[12:17:22] <drewinthehead> is there anything in ICRA that is more granular than page-level?
[12:17:23] <davecardwell> with a uf it could simply be a case of adding some class to that element signifying an issue has been raised
[12:17:40] <Phae> Not that I've seen. It rates a whole page.
[12:18:17] <drewinthehead> yeah, page-level doesn't solve our problem (which is good)
[12:18:18] <Phae> Infact, it seems to rate the entire site, rather than individual pages within the site.
[12:18:23] <drewinthehead> ouch
[12:18:25] <Phae> yeah
[12:18:30] <Phae> So it blocks a domain, I assume.
[12:18:43] <davecardwell> IIRC you can do individual pages
[12:22:01] <Phae> ohhh.. wait
[12:22:01] <davecardwell> I'll double-check
[12:22:01] <Phae> The system is very flexible. At one end of the scale you can create a single label to describe any number of websites. On the other hand you may wish to describe individual items (pages, images, movies etc.) with their own unique label.
[12:22:01] <drewinthehead> ah ha
[12:22:01] <Phae> You have to create a label
[12:22:01] <davecardwell> http://www.icra.org/pkd/
[12:22:01] <Phae> And then link your content to that label, which you have to upload to your space.
[12:22:01] <Phae> Ah, that's a differnt service.
[12:22:01] <drewinthehead> oh, i love this ... Nudity: Exposed breasts, Bare buttocks, Visible genitals
[12:22:01] <Phae> heh
[12:22:01] <Phae> I said they were precise!
[12:22:01] <davecardwell> you create one label for all/most of your site
[12:22:01] <davecardwell> then additional labels
[12:22:06] <Phae> Although I assume if your overall rating is nudity, you're not going to get past that label to see maybe a subsection on flower arranging.
[12:22:20] <drewinthehead> sounds like it's just too hard to implement ... too complex
[12:22:21] <Phae> It can only get worse.
[12:22:27] <Phae> It does seem complex.
[12:22:53] <Phae> And of course, the whole thing assumes you've downloaded and are using one of their filtering programs.
[12:23:00] <drewinthehead> "Depiction of tobacco use" !!
[12:23:03] <davecardwell> complex because it is designed to get parents to use their proprietry tools for filtering
[12:23:03] <Phae> haha
[12:23:05] <Phae> no way.
[12:23:18] <davecardwell> an open standard couldn't afford such complexity
[12:23:23] <Phae> yeah
[12:23:37] <davecardwell> but would potentially be more useful to parents if it were more widely adopted
[12:24:14] <davecardwell> s/parents/those with an interest in censorship/
[12:24:25] <drewinthehead> having an author think, hmm, this photo's a bit saucy, and add class="rating-r" on it is a very realistic proposal, i think
[12:25:17] <davecardwell> I think a useful one would be a rating-? that would indicate the content had been identified as ambiguously potentially offensive
[12:25:30] <davecardwell> for community sites
[12:25:40] <Phae> yeah
[12:25:46] <davecardwell> the site admins could then remove or more precisly rate the content later
[12:27:58] <drewinthehead> finding examples of this in the wild could be hard
[12:29:12] <davecardwell> http://www.safesurf.com/
[12:29:17] <drewinthehead> do you think those 'You must be 18 or over to enter' roadblock pages are an example?
[12:29:41] <drewinthehead> "How to Stop Porn Predators" - excellent! ;)
[12:29:46] <Phae> They're just there as legal disclaimers.
[12:29:49] <Phae> rubbish ones at that.
[12:30:31] <davecardwell> they'd be unnecessary if the site owner had used the rating microformat
[12:30:46] <davecardwell> the user agent would block access to the site unless it was over-rided by the user
[12:30:55] <davecardwell> with a confirmation dialog, or password, or whatever
[12:31:03] <drewinthehead> ah, NSFW is an example, surely
[12:31:19] <Phae> Well, not really. Those roadblocks are to check age- our system would be checking preference.
[12:31:45] <davecardwell> might be worth looking at some products like net nanny
[12:31:57] <davecardwell> http://www.child-internet-safety.com/internet_filters.php?pid=3-1001&gclid=CKfpp_r1sYYCFUxLQgodGFBwWA
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[12:31:59] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
[12:32:05] <drewinthehead> rel="nsfw"
[12:33:28] <drewinthehead> perhaps that could be a rating ... rating-nsfw
[12:33:33] <Phae> I like that none of those are rated to work on Macs
[12:34:16] <davecardwell> heh
[12:34:31] <davecardwell> http://www.freeverse.com/bumpercar2/
[12:35:05] <Phae> They have the nicest site, at least :)
[12:35:12] <davecardwell> http://www.iwatchdog.org/family_safety_info_and_solutions.html has a whole bunch of links
[12:35:25] <davecardwell> childsafe search engines - might be worth looking into how they filter
[12:35:56] <Phae> keywords?
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[12:36:15] <Phae> http://searchenginewatch.com/showPage.html?page=2156191
[12:36:40] <drewinthehead> is the correct term for this "content rating" ?
[12:36:58] <Phae> oh, lots of hand picking going on.
[12:37:01] <Phae> Yeah, I think so.
[12:37:17] <davecardwell> seems fair to me
[12:38:25] <Phae> I think ratings have come on since I was at school. I remember when I was a kid not being able to look up stuff about the human body for example, for classes, because the school's filter would block certain words
[12:38:52] <Phae> Even deviantART was filtered a lot, just on the word "deviant".
[12:39:06] <Phae> Which is probably fair enough :)
[12:39:13] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
[12:39:23] <trovster> I like the idea of rel="nsfw" type, then the emphisis is on the refer, and not the page itself.
[12:39:23] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7757 * DrewMcLellan * (+54) Exploratory discussions - - Content Rating
[12:39:44] <trovster> Of course, the site giving the rating still needs to be trust.
[12:39:49] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/content-rating-examples * DrewMcLellan * (+695) Created
[12:39:57] <Phae> Yeah, that's what we were saying. The trust value is limited.
[12:40:20] <trovster> +ed, so porn sites could link to themselves with rel="safe"
[12:40:32] <Phae> Yeah
[12:40:34] <Phae> That's right.
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[12:40:39] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
[12:41:55] <trovster> I think the uF wouldn't replace existing filters/extensions, but complement them, to sites they've not covered yet, or that had a range of content.
[12:42:35] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7758 * DrewMcLellan * (+299) Content Rating Examples -
[12:42:40] <Phae> Yeah. I can see a benefit to encouraging all websites to rate themselves.
[12:42:43] <trovster> So it wouldn't be as high as porn filtering, but could be for profanity.
[12:43:24] <Phae> Well, you could do a search, and limit your results based on the ratings
[12:43:33] <Phae> I dunno. I think there's uses for it.
[12:46:16] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7759 * DrewMcLellan * (+94) Content Rating Examples -
[12:47:13] <drewinthehead> ok, so how do we sum up the content-rating problem>
[12:50:19] <Phae> erm, I suppose the problem is that currently, we have no defualt way of knowing what rating content is. We have to rely on keyword, or prior judgement from another party.
[12:53:27] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7760 * DrewMcLellan * (+126) The Problem -
[12:57:24] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7761 * DrewMcLellan * (+110) Existing Practices -
[12:57:54] <davecardwell> and existing rating systems are limited in scope
[12:58:16] <davecardwell> you can't rate certain fragments or elements
[12:58:27] <davecardwell> apart from things like movies with ICRA
[12:58:30] <davecardwell> and then it's long-winded
[12:58:35] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7762 * DrewMcLellan * (-12) Existing Practices -
[13:00:25] <drewinthehead> ok, we have the start of an examples page
[13:00:37] <Phae> :D drew
[13:00:50] <drewinthehead> http://microformats.org/wiki/content-rating-examples
[13:01:10] <drewinthehead> now it needs fleshing out ... pun intended
[13:01:36] <Phae> m'k
[13:03:41] <drewinthehead> i'll put together a post to mf-discuss
[13:04:15] <Phae> okay.
[13:06:06] <Atamido> Mooo.
[13:06:10] <Atamido> Busy morning.
[13:07:12] <pnhChris> and it just got started
[13:08:03] <pnhChris> (for some of us)
[13:08:11] <Phae> Morning :)
[13:08:14] <McNulty> drewinthehead - did you get anywhere with the idea of avatar filtering?
[13:08:18] <Phae> heh
[13:08:21] * McNulty scrolls bacl
[13:08:25] * McNulty scrolls back
[13:08:29] <drewinthehead> yes .. sort of
[13:08:32] <Phae> oh man, we got on a bit of a tangent.
[13:08:41] <drewinthehead> in the process we found a simpler problem
[13:08:45] * Atamido was going to mention the ICRA, but sees it is already there.
[13:09:04] <McNulty> I was thinking about it over lunch, a blog could choose to use a blacklisting filter rather than a whitelisting one
[13:09:07] <Phae> There's lots of other related bodies. Perhaps we should note those also. There seems to be an organisation for each country.
[13:09:10] <McNulty> which would be even less intrusive
[13:09:21] <McNulty> man you really did go on a tangent
[13:09:25] <Phae> heh
[13:09:26] <McNulty> a generic content-rating microformat?
[13:09:35] * Phae nods.
[13:09:54] <McNulty> I can see it working for sites like deviantart
[13:10:03] <Atamido> I want to say that tantek was opposed to the development of this microformat due to the significantly different standards throughout the world.
[13:10:22] <McNulty> But real pron sites aren't going to do anything to limit their audience
[13:10:37] <McNulty> Atamido - You mean comparative morals?
[13:10:57] <Atamido> I think so.
[13:11:05] <Phae> That is a toughie.
[13:11:06] <mfbot> [[introduction-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=introduction-ja&diff=0&oldid=7763 * IwaiMasaharu * (+9) Webデザインの進化 - 日本語表現の変更
[13:11:11] <davecardwell> according to its Wikipedia page ICRA seems to have some big corporate members
[13:11:17] <Phae> I saw that.
[13:11:19] <davecardwell> BT, AOL, Microsoft...
[13:11:24] <Phae> It's on their website.
[13:11:26] <McNulty> I'm sure it's as much of a question of different standards across sites, let alone around the world
[13:11:43] <McNulty> A fundamentalist christian website might have a different set of standards to SuicideGirls
[13:11:58] <davecardwell> I suppose the benefit a complex system would be that it can take into account cultural differences
[13:12:08] <davecardwell> heh, McNulty pipped me to it :p
[13:12:11] <pnhChris> rel="not-safe-for-utah"
[13:12:13] <McNulty> That was why I (very much earlier) was advocating the idea of filtering sites
[13:12:14] <Phae> heh
[13:12:20] <McNulty> It's a sort of 'rating according to authority X'
[13:12:24] <Atamido> lol @ pnhChris
[13:12:25] <McNulty> well
[13:12:27] <davecardwell> rating-pg is subjective
[13:12:45] <davecardwell> content-boobies is less so
[13:12:51] <Phae> I think the actual ratings we'd use need to be thought about very carefully, but right now we're interested in how it's being done and why its not done that well. I guess.
[13:13:01] <McNulty> <a href="http://www.utah-chastity.com" rel="rating-xxx"> ?
[13:13:41] * Atamido prefers the simple NSFW moniker, and finds it to be fairly reliable.
[13:13:48] <McNulty> a browser could choose to take the rating at face value, but it's given a sort of ratings domain, so I can ignore the Utah Chastity Society's ratings
[13:13:52] <Phae> The movie ratings system - that currently differs from the States to Europe slightly, doesn't it?
[13:14:05] <McNulty> yep
[13:14:13] <davecardwell> in the UK I think it's just U, PG, 12, 15, 18
[13:14:19] <Phae> We have 12A now too :)
[13:14:19] <McNulty> it varies from UK and Ireland so we get DVDs badged with both
[13:14:23] <Phae> Okay.
[13:14:37] <Atamido> ICRA ratings take care of 'comparitive morals', but is exceptionally complex.
[13:14:39] <Phae> It does show a cultural difference, even at that level.
[13:14:39] <pnhChris> even in the us.. tv rating, movie raitings, and album labeling are all different
[13:14:44] <Phae> okay
[13:14:56] <Phae> That's right, Atamido
[13:14:59] <McNulty> I definitely think ratings need to be linked somehow to a ratings authority
[13:15:07] <Phae> Which one though? :)
[13:15:07] <pnhChris> oh.. and video game ratings differ as well
[13:15:11] <Phae> Yeah
[13:15:23] <McNulty> You need to say "The BFFC rate this 12A"
[13:15:29] <Atamido> NC-17 vs R
[13:15:32] <McNulty> so we know what the scale is
[13:15:38] <Phae> Alright.
[13:15:55] <McNulty> A page could have multiple differing ratings from different authorities
[13:16:00] <Atamido> Are you going to have a rating for each rating authority?
[13:16:08] <McNulty> for all the ones the site author cares about
[13:16:21] <Atamido> Because not every authority ranks "indecency" items in the same order.
[13:16:28] <pnhChris> how will it be of any value if its rated in something other then the surfers known authority.. or there is some process to translate it into the surfers local / chosen authority scheme
[13:16:51] <McNulty> I think if there are multiple ratings, the browser would rate the content at the level of the ones it 'knows about'
[13:17:00] <McNulty> If it doesn'tknow about any, it'll apply the strictest rules
[13:17:08] * McNulty wonders what problem we're solving
[13:17:16] * pnhChris does too
[13:17:20] <McNulty> :-)
[13:17:32] * pnhChris read scrollback but mssed the beginning of the conversation
[13:17:32] <Atamido> If you're talking about browser restrictions, that is best done by filtering software.
[13:17:34] <McNulty> I very much like the idea of tagging individual page elements with ratings.
[13:17:37] <davecardwell> <span class="rating"><abbr class="authority" title="British Board of Film Classification">BFFC</abbr> rates this movie <abbr class="grade" title="Universal">U</abbr></span ?
[13:17:43] <davecardwell> getting complex again
[13:17:58] <McNulty> the grade would be on some standard scale
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[13:18:40] <McNulty> <a href="http://www.bbfc.com" rel="rating" class="10" >The BBFC rated this page as 18</a>
[13:18:42] <Atamido> Maybe someone should list potential problems first to know what to avoid?
[13:18:49] <McNulty> class="rating-10"
[13:18:53] <pnhChris> (a) what content is being marked up.. in page content or links... (b) what is the context that content is being extracted into / leveraged?
[13:19:27] <Atamido> IE, 1. Different ratings authorities rank items in different orders, so they can't be directly compared to each other.
[13:19:37] <davecardwell> to go the ICRA route would be something like class="content-nudity content-artistic"
[13:20:00] <Atamido> 2. The number of different items that could be filtered on it staggeringly large, making a list based system complex.
[13:20:01] <davecardwell> but then you'd hope a filter would look at the alt="" of an image, or the text in a paragraph, etc
[13:20:48] <Atamido> 3. There is no well recognized ratings authority across the world, making it difficult to standardize on a single system that everyone could recognize.
[13:21:24] * plaes is now known as plaes|railroad
[13:21:29] <Atamido> davecardwell: I think ICRA ratings are much more complex than that.
[13:21:50] <davecardwell> well yes, but I don't think you could achieve that full complexity with classes
[13:22:00] <davecardwell> not sensibly, anyway
[13:22:15] <davecardwell> my example was just a potential implementation of that sort of idea
[13:23:11] <Atamido> One person's art is another person's horror.
[13:23:29] <davecardwell> it wasn't a proposal
[13:23:41] <davecardwell> it was meant as an example of why that sort of system wouldn't work with microformats
[13:23:49] <pnhChris> speaking of which.. and ot.. fun little probably nsfw game to play for 5 mins... http://www.severancethemovie.co.uk/
[13:24:17] <Phae> oh what. nice.
[13:26:15] <Phae> Anyway. I have to pop out for a couple hours.
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[13:27:13] <jibot> boneill is Ben O'Neill, a 3rd year Software Engineering student - http://www.benedictoneill.com/
[13:27:29] <pnhChris> my final contribution to the conversation (cause i don't really see it ending in anything usable) ....
[13:27:30] <pnhChris> rel="no-follow-from-work"
[13:27:32] <pnhChris> :P
[13:27:38] <drewinthehead> i think the only thing that matters with the ratings system is that it's understood what each rating means in terms of content
[13:27:39] <McNulty> ha
[13:28:11] <McNulty> drewinthehead - ratings from multiple authorities solves that to an extent
[13:28:22] <McNulty> like, say we make an arbitrary 1-5 scale
[13:28:40] <drewinthehead> the things to avoid are ratings like PG, i think
[13:28:41] <McNulty> I can see the Chastity League rate it as 5 but the Violence Monitoring Society rate it 2
[13:29:12] <McNulty> Or if there's an authority whose ratings I trust implicity (e.g. my church of choice!) I can look at their ratings
[13:29:36] <pnhChris> i guess
[13:29:45] <pnhChris> that gets back to what we're looking to mark up
[13:29:53] <pnhChris> and how we'd leverage the data
[13:30:03] <davecardwell> but then, the site's author's subjective rating system would come into play would it not?
[13:30:15] <McNulty> ah, hm
[13:30:28] <drewinthehead> it's got to be a single rating system
[13:30:40] <davecardwell> the only way for external authorities to rate content is for them to do it exclusively
[13:30:43] <drewinthehead> but should only be taken as a rough guide
[13:30:47] <McNulty> I was thinking about labelling the pages with ratings from other sites.
[13:30:57] * pnhChris wonders if this is going in the direction of a new field in hReview
[13:31:10] <McNulty> like, with a hyperlink to a page on authority.com saying my site is rated '5'
[13:31:20] <McNulty> pnhChris - hm!
[13:31:24] <drewinthehead> i think it would be elemental, pnhChris
[13:31:30] <McNulty> A rating is really a negative/positive review
[13:31:47] <McNulty> Like Tantek's comment recently about bug reports being negative reviews
[13:32:02] <drewinthehead> gah ... everything's a bloody review around here! ;)
[13:32:25] <davecardwell> I suppose an aggragator or filter system could look at your other reviews and compare it to others to determine how relatively conservative you are on various issues
[13:32:30] <Atamido> You mean an hReview.
[13:32:35] <Atamido> :P
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[13:33:21] <jibot> edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
[13:33:26] <drewinthehead> ratings are based on lots of scales ... nudity, violence, profanity .. i don't think hReview's ratings can express all those vectors
[13:33:31] <pnhChris> davecardwell: that's the direction i was going... see a list of all the movies... "Church of Bob rated it a 4 out of 5 and "safe for all""
[13:33:44] <pnhChris> ... kinda thing
[13:33:49] * Atamido was joking.
[13:34:21] <pnhChris> though i guess you could do that with multipe ratings
[13:34:42] <pnhChris> overall 4 of 5, tag: family safe: 5 of 5
[13:34:53] <pnhChris> and not change any spec
[13:34:59] <pnhChris> just go on convention
[13:35:26] <davecardwell> you could offer a number of recognised criteria that aren't necessarily restrictive
[13:35:36] * Atamido will wait for the heavy-handed tantek comment on the ml.
[13:35:36] <davecardwell> get the most common moral objections people might have to content
[13:35:50] * pnhChris smiles at Atamido
[13:35:57] <davecardwell> violence, nudity, sex, smoking, etc
[13:36:13] <drewinthehead> what if the strokes were really broad?
[13:37:28] <drewinthehead> 'safe for all', err something and 'adult content'
[13:37:47] <pnhChris> i gotta run for a bit... but I think i'm done here unless someone narrows down the context that we're working in a bit.. tv listings vs. reviews vs. linking to other content vs. meta data for existing page.. etc.
[13:38:19] <drewinthehead> you're saying it's DITW, pnhChris?
[13:38:53] <pnhChris> i'm saying the conversation is still trying to solve everything
[13:39:39] <pnhChris> and identifying that a moview in a movie listing is rated R by te MPAA is differnt then a church blogging a review of a movie and telling their audience if its "safe" or not
[13:39:53] <pnhChris> or linking to some not safe for work content from a forum post
[13:40:00] <drewinthehead> ok, let's forget it
[13:40:04] <drewinthehead> i'll kill the page
[13:40:12] <pnhChris> and wanting to have a no-foloow like way to allow someones with a greasmonkey script to avoid it
[13:40:22] <McNulty> I think it needs more discussion before you throw it out
[13:40:30] <pnhChris> they're all interstings issues
[13:40:33] <McNulty> yeah
[13:40:35] <Atamido> Perhaps leaving the page up with a description of the issues would be a good idea.
[13:40:44] <drewinthehead> i thought that was the point of exploratory discussion?
[13:41:09] <pnhChris> the tv listing with "official" ratings is one I borught up a month or two ago.. but i ended up not having to build that part of the particular project because it existed already
[13:41:22] <Atamido> Probably.
[13:41:38] <pnhChris> so i was looking for a semantic way to attach the rating to the thing listed
[13:42:07] <pnhChris> but that gets into the media description side of thigns... rather then the review side
[13:42:16] <pnhChris> and arbitrary personal evaluation side
[13:42:39] <pnhChris> so break up the discussion some and keep going.. or key on one aspect and keep it going
[13:42:52] <drewinthehead> i'm not sure people disagreeing with a rating is our problem to solve ... that's always going to happen
[13:43:54] <Atamido> What is the specific problem you are trying to solve?
[13:44:16] <drewinthehead> filtering content based on rating
[13:44:37] <Atamido> What content, where?
[13:44:47] <drewinthehead> web content on a web page
[13:45:06] <Atamido> So, a rating in the header of the page, or a rating in a link to the page?
[13:45:25] <davecardwell> it may be a single element that is unsuitable
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[13:45:26] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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[13:45:34] <drewinthehead> a rating on the item itself
[13:45:43] * Atamido owns one of these, and so certainly has an interest in ratings. http://www.clearplay.com/shopdetail.aspx?id=2
[13:45:45] <drewinthehead> that could be on a IMG element or on the BODY
[13:45:47] <davecardwell> for example, an article may be fine, but comments may be classified in some way as potentially offensive
[13:45:49] <drewinthehead> or on anything
[13:45:51] <davecardwell> or unmoderated
[13:46:16] <Atamido> So not a link?
[13:46:35] <davecardwell> I think the intention was for the content on an actual page
[13:46:41] <davecardwell> not a link to that content
[13:46:55] <drewinthehead> a link wasn't the primary concern
[13:46:57] <davecardwell> though I suppose you could link to a #fragment for that kind of granular control
[13:47:11] <davecardwell> the initial thought centered around self-rating your own content
[13:47:34] <davecardwell> that is, the content on your own page
[13:47:35] <drewinthehead> the concept could extend to links, but we'd not been considering that at this point
[13:47:47] <Atamido> What is wrong with using ICRA ratings?
[13:47:54] <drewinthehead> more for an author to rate the content he or she is publishing
[13:48:07] <drewinthehead> ICRA is way too complex, so it doesn't get used
[13:48:07] <davecardwell> complex and unwieldly
[13:48:28] <davecardwell> it also doesn't offer rating any element of a page
[13:48:38] <Atamido> Complex beyond the ability for us mere mortals to understand.
[13:49:09] <davecardwell> I'd wager complex enough to restrict its uptake
[13:49:12] <Atamido> You could theoretically make it attach to a single element.
[13:49:16] <drewinthehead> right .. it'd be easy to quickly attach a rating class name to something, but it's a big job to learn and implment the ICRA stuff
[13:49:33] * Atamido has never seen ICRA used, but has seen NSFW used.
[13:50:17] <drewinthehead> right
[13:50:27] <Atamido> "National Schools Film Week" http://www.nsfw.org/
[13:50:33] <davecardwell> with the current trends towards user-generated content, ICRA also presents a problem with allowing the community to rate their own content
[13:50:58] <davecardwell> far simpler for them to be able to add a class="" to an element
[13:51:04] <drewinthehead> "Northumberland Services For Women" http://nsfw.ca/
[13:51:13] <Atamido> As opposed to "A blog for everything not safe for work" http://www.nsfw.com/
[13:51:24] <davecardwell> I think NSFW is quite a good example
[13:51:54] <davecardwell> although it's arbitrary - what is not safe for my workplace might be acceptable for yours - it highlights that content may potentially offend
[13:52:01] <davecardwell> then it's your judgement call whether you want to proceed or not
[13:52:17] <davecardwell> I think if we could take that and add a few specifics to it, that would be a desirable microformat
[13:52:18] <drewinthehead> and so it should be with any ratings system we propose
[13:52:22] <drewinthehead> right
[13:52:29] <Atamido> "usage: insert a URL to shorten and include a warning that the URL may contain adult content. When you send your friends the link generated they will get a splash page warning them first that if they value their job, they want to look at it later ;)" http://www.nsfw.us/
[13:52:36] <davecardwell> that solves the problem of the rating system being arbitrary and culturaly insensitive
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[13:52:43] <Atamido> Like tinyurl, but for NSFW. :P
[13:53:25] <Atamido> I disagree.
[13:53:37] <Atamido> NSFW is usually rated to the lowest common denominator.
[13:53:38] <davecardwell> not totally, but to a large extent
[13:53:50] <davecardwell> that's why I wanted to add a few specifics
[13:53:56] <davecardwell> if content is sexual in nature, for example
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[13:54:06] <Atamido> IE, people usually mark NSFW when they expect some work place to not find it acceptable, even if their own does.
[13:54:12] <davecardwell> a parent may be fine with profanity, but not want their children viewing nudity
[13:54:28] <Atamido> Damn nudity. :P
[13:54:43] <drewinthehead> i think that's too fine grained for us to attempt to address
[13:55:09] <drewinthehead> i'd be happy with just 3 levels
[13:55:27] <Atamido> http://nsfw.us/10296
[13:56:06] <davecardwell> a system of levels is a bit too arbitrary again I think
[13:56:07] <Atamido> Standard ratings says 5 levels.
[13:56:56] <Atamido> NSFW-profanity, NSFW-nudity, NSFW-violence, NSFW-political
[13:57:14] <davecardwell> I'd go with something like that
[13:57:26] <davecardwell> it doesn't imply any moral judgement
[13:57:32] <drewinthehead> yup
[13:57:35] <davecardwell> merely that it may cause offence
[13:57:38] <drewinthehead> descriptive
[13:57:39] <davecardwell> because of X
[13:57:42] <Atamido> Of course, that is completely ignoring the Microformats development process.
[13:58:00] <davecardwell> but it isn't over-stepping the bounds of mf into just being metadata
[13:58:20] <davecardwell> we'd have to look at the examples though
[13:58:27] <drewinthehead> btw, NSFW-political?
[13:58:29] <Atamido> Yes.
[13:58:37] <Atamido> Just an example.
[13:58:42] <drewinthehead> i guess in some countries ..
[13:58:52] <Atamido> I was trying to think of another example.
[13:58:57] <davecardwell> ICRA is obviously fairly desirable if it has people like AOL, T-Mobile and Microsoft on board
[13:59:11] <davecardwell> we should look at the problems there and how it could be adapted
[13:59:18] <Atamido> Things to never talk about at work: Politics and Religion
[13:59:24] <davecardwell> you have large content generators and content carriers there
[13:59:35] <davecardwell> so ICRA is obviously doing *something* right
[13:59:46] <davecardwell> and I believe that is the labelling of content (nudity, profanity etc)
[13:59:53] <Atamido> You mean "something wrong" don't you?
[13:59:57] <davecardwell> where it falls down is its complexity
[14:00:42] <davecardwell> and it seems to have been designed with ICRA's own filtering tools in mind
[14:00:43] <Atamido> I would say, ICRA contains every little feature that everyone wants, so you need to look at it and pull the stuff that is actually useful.
[14:00:47] <davecardwell> not a general open web purpose
[14:01:11] <Atamido> NSFW-religious
[14:01:24] <davecardwell> I don't like NSFW- :p
[14:01:25] <Atamido> NSFW-explicit-drug-use
[14:02:01] <Atamido> Not Safe For Whiskey_M
[14:02:04] <davecardwell> I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to collect the majority of moral hot potatoes
[14:02:30] <davecardwell> nudity, violence, etc
[14:03:03] <davecardwell> it doesn't need to be totally universal
[14:03:04] <Atamido> nudity, violence, oatmeal cream pies, profanity, etc.
[14:03:17] <Atamido> Ah, then leave out the profanity.
[14:03:18] <davecardwell> nsfw-tiananmen-square
[14:04:05] <Atamido> nsfw-atamido-nudity
[14:04:10] <Atamido> <_<
[14:04:11] <davecardwell> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001684.html
[14:04:12] <Atamido> >_>
[14:04:16] <davecardwell> (from mf-discuss)
[14:05:03] <davecardwell> not quite the same as what we're discussing
[14:05:08] <davecardwell> but the thread may throw up some issues
[14:05:22] <Whiskey_M> :)
[14:05:42] <davecardwell> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2005-October/001717.html in particular
[14:05:48] <davecardwell> (Tantek's thoughts)
[14:05:51] <Atamido> It might be worthwhile to note the difference between what you want and what has been discussed with linking the next time you post to the ml.
[14:06:53] <Atamido> If anything, NSFW should probably be used somehow because it is the single most universally recognized system.
[14:07:14] <Atamido> davecardwell: ^
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[14:08:12] <davecardwell> NSFW is potentially confusing
[14:08:22] <davecardwell> for people who haven't come across it before
[14:08:47] <davecardwell> (because of the "for work" bit)
[14:10:19] <Atamido> There are people that haven't come across it before?
[14:11:35] <Atamido> Responed to ml.
[14:13:59] <drewinthehead> i think the whole different-people-rating-things-differently problem is a non-issue
[14:14:18] <Atamido> NSFM "Not Safe For Mormons"?
[14:14:31] <Atamido> NSFQ "Not Safe For Quakers"?
[14:14:59] <Atamido> NSFW "Not Safe For Women"?
[14:15:13] <drewinthehead> so the alternative is no rating ... which is, by default potentially "Not Safe For People Who Value Their Freedom" or whatever
[14:15:42] <drewinthehead> i.e. the default state is as offensive as it can get
[14:15:46] <Atamido> NSFPWVTF?
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[14:16:14] <drewinthehead> all we're attempting to do is rate stuff down
[14:16:30] <drewinthehead> someone might say they would have rated it down further, but hey
[14:16:43] <Atamido> Oh, then you want SFW-nudity, SFW-violence, etc?
[14:16:46] <drewinthehead> they should be thankful that you rated it at all
[14:17:12] <Atamido> It's a lot easier to rate the bad than the good.
[14:17:25] <drewinthehead> i'm not suggesting rating the good
[14:18:12] <Atamido> If you can find some contect that includes nudity, violence, political, religious, profanity, etc, all at the same time, you've just reached the holy grail of fetish sites.
[14:19:35] <Atamido> The pope, wearing only a pointy hat, whipping George Bush, who is yelling #@@#$!
[14:19:50] <Atamido> Hmmmm....
[14:19:56] * Atamido wanders off to make some money.
[14:20:31] <Atamido> And the best part is, I don't have to label any of it with your system, because it is already in the worst state. :)
[14:20:59] <drewinthehead> the thing is, with a rating system - any rating system - people end up being offended *less* than with no rating system in place
[14:23:05] <drewinthehead> to be honest i don't care. but i run sites where i know the sort of users I get would find something like this beneficial
[14:23:47] <drewinthehead> take our initial problem of allowing the user to specify what rating of gravatar they're happy to see, as a subset of the site publisher's choice
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[14:54:36] <drewinthehead> erk .. 4pm .. time for lunch
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[15:45:57] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7764 * IwaiMasaharu * (+14) Exploratory discussions - Added new marker for Content Rating
[15:47:48] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=7765 * IwaiMasaharu * (+124) sync: english: 15:45, 27 Jul 2006
[15:51:59] <mfbot> [[xoxo-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=xoxo-ja&diff=0&oldid=7766 * IwaiMasaharu * (+4) sync: english: 18:08, 23 Jul 2006
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[16:04:53] <tantek> sigh the whole content rating thing rears its head again
[16:05:25] <mfbot> [[hcalendar-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar-ja&diff=0&oldid=7767 * IwaiMasaharu * (+31) sync: english: 11:29, 25 Jul 2006
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[16:16:39] * Atamido waits for the email.
[16:20:42] <tantek> drew, phae, davecardwell, anyone still around?
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[16:20:52] <drewinthehead> i'm here
[16:20:56] <drewinthehead> hiding under my desk
[16:21:05] <Whiskey_M> >yawn< - more or less awake
[16:21:49] <drewinthehead> i think i've pretty much resigned to the fact that i don't care enough about ratings systems to put up with the aggressive kickback :)
[16:22:06] <tantek> drew, the problem is that "content rating" is just a form of tagging
[16:22:11] <tantek> this doesn't need a separate solution
[16:22:28] <tantek> and certainly hiding data (i.e. the rating) invisibly in the class attribute is a major no-no
[16:23:20] <drewinthehead> ok, no problem.
[16:23:47] <mfbot> [[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=7768 * DrewMcLellan * (-68) Exploratory discussions -
[16:24:53] <mfbot> [[content-rating-examples]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=content-rating-examples&diff=0&oldid=7769 * DrewMcLellan * (-1312)
[16:25:17] <tantek> i'm not saying that it's not worth doing content ratings. i'm just saying if you care about "rating your content" then *tag* your content with whatever keywords you think you would need to "rate" it
[16:25:35] <tantek> then people can potentially filter based on those tags
[16:25:54] <drewinthehead> that sounds complex
[16:26:03] <tantek> tagging is complex?
[16:26:12] <tantek> tagging is perhaps the most popular microformat on the web
[16:26:20] <drewinthehead> no, being able to match against arbitrary tags
[16:26:26] <tantek> it is not complex by any practical measure - people understand it and do it
[16:26:31] <tantek> ah
[16:26:37] <tantek> well, that's the problem of content rating taxonomy
[16:26:44] <tantek> and *that* is certainly not our problem
[16:26:50] <tantek> even W3C punted on that
[16:26:56] <drewinthehead> right, i don't want to even attempt to solve that
[16:27:05] <tantek> PICS is a system for applying ratings of various systems
[16:27:45] <drewinthehead> it's very easy to think up problems with rating systems, and i'm not sure that many of those problems really exist
[16:28:06] <tantek> they exist in practice because people have totally different ideas of what is offensive
[16:28:29] <tantek> across different cultures, countries
[16:28:36] <tantek> and across time in the same cultures and countries
[16:28:49] <drewinthehead> ok
[16:29:13] <tantek> in many ways this is more of a UI problem
[16:29:13] <KevinMarks> countries? counties even
[16:29:20] <drewinthehead> to be honest i set out to solve a different problem, so i'm not exactly holding a flag for this one
[16:29:45] <tantek> well you can still tag your photo with various tags
[16:29:52] <tantek> for your gravatar equivalent
[16:30:07] <tantek> just map their taxonomy 1:1 into tags
[16:30:08] <tantek> done
[16:31:32] <pnhChris> q: anything wrong with a tag having image content?
[16:31:52] <tantek> well an image is a resource on the web with a URL just like any other link
[16:31:52] * schepers (n=schepers@cpe-066-057-015-168.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Connection timed out)
[16:31:57] <tantek> so you can use xFolk to tag it
[16:32:00] <pnhChris> well
[16:32:02] <pnhChris> i mean
[16:32:21] <pnhChris> like the logos used in most US rating systems
[16:32:30] <pnhChris> eg.
[16:33:09] <pnhChris> <a href="example.com/tag/mpaa-r" rel="tag"><img src="r-logo.png" alt="Rated R"></a>
[16:33:24] <tantek> that works
[16:33:29] <pnhChris> or some variation of the same
[16:33:49] <tantek> part of the reason the semantic *tag* comes from the URL (last segment) is so you can do things like that
[16:34:12] <drewinthehead> use XHTML, please, pnhChris ;)
[16:34:21] <pnhChris> why? :P
[16:34:26] <tantek> oh boy
[16:34:30] <pnhChris> its funny
[16:34:33] <pnhChris> for whatever reason
[16:34:34] <drewinthehead> let's not go there
[16:34:38] <pnhChris> on message boards and stuff
[16:34:55] <pnhChris> i never close imgs
[16:34:58] * tantek warns people to not wake up H*i*x*i*e
[16:35:02] * ryanlowe (n=chatzill@CPE00045a734098-CM001225d89e7c.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
[16:35:31] <pnhChris> though its typically not an issue there cause the content gets tidied or some variation of it
[16:35:37] <pnhChris> just an odd habit
[16:35:46] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
[16:35:59] * tantek directs the html vs. xhtml to the #html channel (has 60+ members) vs. the #xhtml channel (has only 1 member)
[16:36:59] <drewinthehead> how much of the scrollback have you read, tantek?
[16:37:21] <drewinthehead> did you see any discussion about a distributed avatar system based on hCard@photo?
[16:37:26] <tantek> yes
[16:37:37] <tantek> that sounds very cool
[16:37:46] <tantek> in fact, it might actually get gravatars to take off big time
[16:37:54] <tantek> because it would avoid the need for a central registry
[16:38:16] <drewinthehead> that's it. we just need to make peering easy
[16:38:33] <tantek> all you do is go to the URL that the commenter entered for themselves, look for the <address> hCard on that page, grab the PHOTO or LOGO from it, and you're done
[16:38:44] <tantek> what am I missing?
[16:38:49] <drewinthehead> ratings ;)
[16:39:02] <tantek> i don't think it is necessary
[16:39:22] <tantek> i bet you could use people's hCard photos and not be worried about that
[16:39:35] <tantek> the gravatar ratings thing was overthinking the problem
[16:39:37] <Phae> i have returned!
[16:39:40] <drewinthehead> i have a gravatar enabled site where i only accept general-audience rated images
[16:39:52] <drewinthehead> Phae: you've missed *all* the fun!
[16:39:56] <Phae> oh no :(
[16:40:01] <Phae> gimme a digest version.
[16:40:07] <tantek> use tags ;)
[16:40:13] <drewinthehead> we got shouted down
[16:40:17] <Phae> typical.
[16:40:20] <tantek> i wasn't shouting!
[16:40:20] <drewinthehead> rightly, however.
[16:40:26] <Whiskey_M> lol
[16:40:35] <drewinthehead> no, tantek, just the stern voice of reason ;)
[16:40:59] <tantek> ah ok
[16:41:03] <tantek> sternvoiceofreason++
[16:41:17] <Phae> So are we scraping it all?
[16:41:29] <drewinthehead> just the content rating bits
[16:41:39] <drewinthehead> we're back onto the original problem
[16:41:39] <Whiskey_M> laters :)
[16:41:40] <Phae> Isn't thatthe whole bit?
[16:41:40] <Phae> :P
[16:41:43] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ()
[16:41:44] <Phae> Oh, with hcards?
[16:41:50] <drewinthehead> gravatars
[16:41:59] <tantek> I would use hCard photos from commenters on my blog without bothering with ratings
[16:41:59] <Phae> Okay.
[16:42:10] <Phae> There was logic behind how we got there.
[16:42:14] <Phae> I think we just need to rewind.
[16:42:17] <tantek> I actually trust the typical blogger (especially one that would link to me) to use reasonable images for themselves
[16:42:45] <drewinthehead> blogging is only one area of use
[16:43:03] <tantek> there are other areas? ;)
[16:43:10] <Phae> For avatars?
[16:43:15] <Phae> Everywhere needs avatars!
[16:43:18] <drewinthehead> see here: http://generous.org.uk/actions/planetary/7/stop-taking-carrier-bags-from-shops
[16:43:38] <tantek> I see a bunch of hCards
[16:43:42] <tantek> at least conceptually
[16:43:51] <drewinthehead> yes, new build in a month or so ;)
[16:44:01] <tantek> those are just profiles
[16:44:07] <tantek> and profiles are perfectly marked up with hCards
[16:44:23] <drewinthehead> those are from gravatar.com
[16:44:31] <drewinthehead> filtered by rating
[16:44:57] <drewinthehead> if anyone posted with a nasty picture to that site, i'd be .. erm .. in trouble.
[16:46:11] <drewinthehead> ratings are the feature that makes them useful in that case .. otherwise i'd just build my own system with moderation and take that burden on myself
[16:46:55] <tantek> i see, you just want an API for distributed moderation
[16:46:58] <tantek> for any resource
[16:47:30] <drewinthehead> i guess
[16:47:40] <drewinthehead> we weren't thinking quite that grand
[16:47:48] <tantek> and drew, are you sure that the "nasty" that would get you into trouble matches up with the gravatar taxonomy of nastiness and their own editorial opinion of nastiness?
[16:47:55] <Phae> What we had got to was finding a method for some viewers to be able to view all avatars, regardless of rating, even if the site owner had set the rating at say PG-12
[16:47:58] <tantek> or is it a lowest common denominator thing?
[16:48:14] <drewinthehead> close enough that i can demonstrate i've taken reasonable steps ;)
[16:48:17] <tantek> e.g. everyone just ends up viewing G-content
[16:48:19] <Phae> Or moreso, the other way.. only grab avatars of a rating you set.
[16:48:42] <Phae> And I think that's how we got onto content rating :)
[16:50:06] <drewinthehead> the idea was that anyone could set themselves up as a filtering service, and then a site publisher chooses whichever service they trust
[16:50:07] <tantek> drew, what's interesting is that all this RSS nonsense has taken off, and it is certainly NOT the 80% that have asked for any kind of rating on the content that they are syndicating
[16:50:22] <tantek> I would firmly put the "need to be sure there is no nastiness" into the 20%, not the 80%
[16:50:23] <drewinthehead> then those services can choose to peer with other services they trust
[16:50:39] <tantek> people are just syndicating content in the wild without worrying about ratings
[16:50:46] <tantek> because in practice 99% of it is just fine
[16:50:59] <tantek> and if once in a while something "nasty" slips by, typically people blow it off
[16:51:10] <drewinthehead> *cough*
[16:51:12] <tantek> perhaps this is a cultural shift that is occuring on the net?
[16:51:17] <drewinthehead> perhaps :)
[16:51:55] <tantek> in my experience the folks advocating the most strongly for such content rating systems are cultural conservatives that are trying to plug their fingers into a dam that has long since broken
[16:52:20] <drewinthehead> that may well be so
[16:52:29] <drewinthehead> it's certainly no personal crusade of mine
[16:52:34] * briansuda things that no matter what the rating system, he could always lie
[16:52:56] <drewinthehead> that's why we dismissed self-rating, briansuda
[16:53:29] <briansuda> sorry, i missed the first half, the conversation - reading archives now
[16:53:39] <drewinthehead> perhaps we just go with reactionary 'this is offensive' links and be done with it
[16:54:01] <drewinthehead> oops, not reactionary
[16:54:02] <briansuda> but if you are pulling MY hCARD, and looking for the photo/logo then you are letting me self-rate
[16:54:13] <drewinthehead> 'reactive'
[16:54:46] <drewinthehead> hence the desire for a moderation system
[16:55:03] <drewinthehead> (currently provided centrally by gravatar.com)
[16:56:35] <tantek> drew, in reality, i think if you are browsing the web at all, you are ok with some amount of random nastiness occuring like .01% of the time
[16:56:46] <drewinthehead> agreed
[16:56:56] <tantek> which is probably what you would get even with unrated gravatars, er, hCard photos from people's sites
[16:57:47] <drewinthehead> and, as you say, sites that care about that .01% are well within the 20%.
[16:58:25] <drewinthehead> or is that 19.99% now? ;)
[16:58:29] <Phae> heh
[16:58:59] <drewinthehead> so i think what we're saying is, there is no spoon.
[17:01:16] <Phae> I think it could do with being put down for a little while.
[17:01:27] <drewinthehead> i think i could do with being put down
[17:01:30] <Phae> :D
[17:01:49] * DanC (n=connolly@64-126-89-30-dhcp-kc.everestkc.net) has joined #microformats
[17:01:49] <jibot> DanC is Dan Connolly http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
[17:01:55] <drewinthehead> right .. i gotta dash .. back in an hour
[17:01:59] <Phae> ciao drew
[17:02:04] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@oliis.plus.com) has left #microformats
[17:06:16] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
[17:06:16] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
[17:06:17] * dbaron (n=dbaron@gw.office.mozilla.org) has joined #microformats
[17:10:21] <tantek> welcome dbaron
[17:11:02] <Phae> back in a bit.
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[17:15:55] <KevinMarks> Rating systems get gamed, and so do moderation ones
[17:15:57] * izo_ (n=izo_@boi59-1-82-66-128-84.fbx.proxad.net) Quit ()
[17:16:07] <KevinMarks> looka t the breastfeeding icons controversy on LJ
[17:26:41] * torum (n=chatzill@ttv253022.ttv.ne.jp) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.74 [Firefox 1.5.0.4/2006052700]")
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[17:29:00] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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[17:35:06] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7770 * Tantek * (+166) added
[17:35:21] <tantek> deanero - microformats BOF tonight at OSCON
[17:35:32] <tantek> see http://microformats.org/wiki/events for dettails
[17:35:36] <tantek> details even
[17:36:12] <Phae> k
[17:36:15] <deanero> 'tis on my schedule :)
[17:45:41] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
[17:45:41] <jibot> drewinthehead is Drew McLellan, the author of hKit and the curator of tools.microformatic.com
[17:45:53] <drewinthehead> back
[17:45:57] <Phae> wb
[17:46:06] <drewinthehead> got drenched ... :)
[17:46:18] <Phae> its actually raining up there at last?
[17:46:35] <drewinthehead> yes, thunderstorms
[17:46:48] <Phae> cool.
[17:47:34] <drewinthehead> ok, so i think i had xfn in mind when i was thinking about embedding the ratings
[17:47:55] <drewinthehead> but i guess it's ok for the data to be hidden in xfn, because it's in the rel attribute
[17:48:08] <Phae> yeah
[17:48:10] <drewinthehead> which is the correct place to express that
[17:48:50] <drewinthehead> there's nothing quite as frustrating as knowing you don't have the mental capacity for something :)
[17:48:55] <Phae> lol
[17:49:09] <Phae> i thought we'd given up on this now due to darned logic!
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[17:49:27] <drewinthehead> i still maintain the fox needs to come across with the grain
[17:52:40] <Phae> heh, I like the discussion on explaining why we'd have to visit lots of pr0n sites on the discuss list.
[17:54:02] <drewinthehead> that didn't even occur to me ... i (for one more day!) work on a classified ads site with a big and fairly rank personals section - so NSFW content is pretty much all over the place all the time
[17:54:15] <Phae> :)
[17:54:19] <drewinthehead> my work is not safe for work
[17:54:28] <Phae> I like to think my history is pretty squeeky
[17:56:28] <pnhChris> i never understood most people who complain about NSFW.. though I mostly see it happen on forums I hit that i'd think just spending all day on would be not-appropriate-for-work
[17:56:50] <Phae> yeah
[17:57:05] <pnhChris> or like "dude.. you're at work.. why you reading fark in the first place"
[17:57:07] <pnhChris> :P
[17:57:11] <Phae> heh.
[17:57:17] <Phae> I forumise at work. I don't get ot IRC though.
[17:57:21] <Phae> I'd never get anything done.
[18:00:12] * pnhChris works from home.. so has plenty of leeway on whats NSFW.. also has plenty of other distractions to worry about
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[18:05:42] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit (Excess Flood)
[18:05:59] * tantek scrolls up
[18:06:10] <Phae> You didn't miss anything.
[18:06:33] * drewinthehead misread Excess Flood as Essex Flood and thought it must be raining hard on the east coast
[18:06:35] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
[18:06:39] <Phae> heh
[18:07:20] <tantek> LOL
[18:07:42] <tantek> drew, there are aspects of XFN that made it a bit different
[18:07:56] <drewinthehead> oh?
[18:08:02] <tantek> as you point out, the rel attribute can be used for limited semantics, but that's not even the big difference(s)
[18:08:31] <tantek> XFN was inspired by pre-existing widespread blogrolling practices of bloggers
[18:08:46] <tantek> who were also often listing friends, co-workers, family etc. in different sections of blogrolls as well
[18:08:59] <tantek> and doing things like annotating people in their blogrolls with "*" if they had met them etc.
[18:09:39] <tantek> those existing web publishing behaviors provided something fairly concrete to model
[18:09:51] <tantek> and then the other thing is the nature of relationships
[18:10:02] <tantek> and while of course there are nearly unlimited number of kinds of relationships between people
[18:10:17] <tantek> it turns out that the vast majority can be captured by a relatively small taxonomy
[18:10:30] <tantek> and that appears to be a domain-specific aspect
[18:11:19] <tantek> most other domains aren't easily modeled by small taxonomies
[18:12:55] <deanero> tantek: ignoring the track mark up-- is using an hatom-esque author here ill-advised? http://www.subpop.com/features/releases.html
[18:13:09] <deanero> i'm re-publishing a gazillion pages of this form:
[18:13:10] <deanero> http://tinyurl.com/hkrwp
[18:14:02] <deanero> i'd really like to indicate some sort of relationship between the releases and the artists...
[18:14:53] <deanero> ack
[18:14:56] <deanero> http://www.subpop.com/features/release.html
[18:16:13] <deanero> that first url was a lie
[18:19:44] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
[18:21:54] <deanero> other publishing examples are allmusic and amazon
[18:22:12] <deanero> here's allmusic on the same release: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:vucibkh9sakq
[18:23:46] <deanero> the same release insound, as well: http://search.insound.com/search/showrelease.jsp?p=INS20649
[18:23:53] <deanero> on insound rather
[18:26:34] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) Quit ()
[18:26:42] <bewest> drewinthehead: so you start the new job monday or so?
[18:26:55] <drewinthehead> tuesday, yup
[18:27:02] <bewest> nice
[18:30:15] <Phae> Where's that?
[18:31:07] <drewinthehead> Yahoo
[18:31:33] <Phae> oh cool. Seems like everyone is moving to yahoo lately :P
[18:31:48] <drewinthehead> it's the fashionable thing to do
[18:31:52] <Phae> hehe
[18:31:59] <pnhChris> yahoo is the new google
[18:32:26] <tantek> and google is the new microsoft
[18:32:27] <Atamido> Except with a really cluttered interface...
[18:32:54] <tantek> darn, missed deanero
[18:33:37] <Atamido> That will teach you to stop staring at your IRC client.
[18:34:58] <KevinMarks> My friend catspaw worked on Internet censorhip monitoring for a couple of years
[18:35:40] <KevinMarks> so she is now an expert on the kinds of pornography searched for and censored by various differnt countries around the world
[18:35:58] <Phae> What a thing to be expert on...
[18:39:13] <KevinMarks> so if you did want a taxonomy built...
[18:40:33] * Atamido wonders what internal investigation these call records are going to.
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[18:47:58] <tantek> Kevinmarks, did she keep info by year?
[18:50:10] <Phae> Alright, time for me to go get some live entertainment in the form of local ska :/ catch ya later
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[18:53:15] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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[19:13:59] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
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[19:49:25] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
[19:50:29] <ajturner> ?learn ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
[19:50:30] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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[19:51:09] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
[19:51:31] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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[21:00:13] <briansuda> ajturner, sorry i missed your message yesterday (http://rbach.priv.at/Microformats-IRC/2006-07-26#T023417), did you find the Microformats Cheat Sheet?
[21:00:38] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) has joined #microformats
[21:00:38] <jibot> deanero is at OSCON-- message me!
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[21:13:43] <Atamido> For hCards on the web, are you required to specify a "type" for the email?
[21:14:20] <Atamido> Can you just have <span class="email">Atamido@gmail.com</span> ?
[21:14:42] <drewinthehead> that example's good, Atamido
[21:14:54] <drewinthehead> better to make it a mailto: link
[21:15:06] <drewinthehead> type is not required
[21:15:15] <Atamido> Hurrah.
[21:15:23] <Atamido> So, "value" is just implied?
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[21:15:30] <jibot> DanC_lap is DanC on his laptop.
[21:15:52] * DanC wishes his laptop would shut up ;-)
[21:15:56] <drewinthehead> pretty much .. i think a type of voice is implied with that value
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[21:19:30] <briansuda> there is no type on email anyway
[21:19:37] <briansuda> only phone and address
[21:20:05] * deanero (i=dean@conference/oscon/session) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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[21:21:51] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
[21:22:08] <Atamido> briansuda: The wiki says there is. http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Property_List
[21:22:18] <Atamido> # url, email (type, value), tel (type, value)
[21:22:46] <tantek> Atamido, that is true, but then if you look at values 'type' can have for email you will see it is fairly limited
[21:23:22] <tantek> the only value that makes much sense is 'internet' which is also the default
[21:23:28] <tantek> in practice no one sets type on email
[21:23:37] <tantek> because there is no need
[21:23:38] <briansuda> yeah, you can have type but they are only 'internet' 'x400' and 'pref'
[21:23:46] <Atamido> Oh?
[21:24:02] <Atamido> I thought you would have "work" and "home" emails.
[21:24:04] <tantek> right, pref is still useful
[21:24:13] <tantek> Atamido, see RFC2426 ;)
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[21:25:24] <Atamido> Pffft! RFCs are for squares.
[21:25:29] <Atamido> I'm a rebel.
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[21:27:03] * drewinthehead realises he suggested a type of 'voice' for email.
[21:27:12] * drewinthehead is not having a very good day.
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[21:34:39] <tantek> drew, can't spell voicemail without email?
[21:36:11] <drewinthehead> i'll buy that, tantek ;)
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[22:29:36] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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[22:53:52] <mfbot> [[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7771 * Rohit * (+128) Upcoming -
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[23:16:47] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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[23:36:22] <tantek> uh Rohit, that linked you added is busted
[23:36:29] <tantek> and you didn't add things in date order :p
[23:37:04] <mfbot> [[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=7772 * Tantek * (+20) fix date order of upcoming events
[23:42:25] <tantek> Hey Rohit, WTF is MFML?
[23:43:28] <tantek> oh the horror: http://wiki.commerce.net/wiki/MFML
[23:43:46] * tantek notes miscapitalized "Given-Name" (sic) which is supposed to be "given-name"
[23:43:49] <tantek> sigh
[23:44:26] <hober> ick
[23:48:57] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) Quit ("nil")
[23:55:07] * tantek 's 30 second appraisal of MFML is XMLturbation.
[23:55:53] <ajturner> are there plugins/bots to read mf in irc channels?
[23:56:21] <tantek> what would that look like?
[23:57:43] <ajturner> well, if a mf formatted string came across, it would provide a link to maybe add it to your address book (in an IRC app plugin)
[23:57:55] <ajturner> or a bot may provide more info on an adr, such as a hyperlink to a map
[23:58:06] <ajturner> and it would come in a small, red, box ;)
[23:59:27] <ajturner> like for example, I write - "oh yeah, there's a great place on <adr><street>15 south main</street><locality>Detroit</locality></adr>" and a map link comes up
[23:59:42] <ajturner> that's kind of an odd example, but one that I can think of off-hand
[23:59:56] <ajturner> basically, a way to embed semantic info, like mf does, in IRC messages

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