IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:11:40] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [01:36:59] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [02:08:59] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [06:34:29] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [08:06:12] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [09:00:48] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [09:56:32] <mfbot>
[[hreview]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview&diff=0&oldid=8022 * Andrew * (+2) changed example to match decimal point used in ratings spec earlier
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- [10:02:38] <mfbot>
[[hatom]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=8023 * Andrew * (+0) typo fix
- [10:08:11] <drewinthehead>
mornin'
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dotBen_ is what hapens when Ben's computer fucks up and connects to the IRC server twice
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dotBen_ is what hapens when Ben's computer fucks up and connects to the IRC server twice
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- [13:07:23] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [13:20:02] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [13:30:42] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
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- [14:27:11] <ajturner>
qid: ping
- [14:34:45] <qid>
hmm?
- [14:37:09] <drewinthehead>
'lo
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- [15:25:42] <ajturner>
hey qid - just wondering if you had an update with your xoxo file? I want to try something out with it
- [15:32:35] <qid>
I haven't changed it since yesterday, it's still in the same spot
- [15:32:59] <qid>
just don't hammer it too much, adelphia cable upload is pathetic
- [16:09:23] <pnhChris>
followup post on using a local hatom proxy w/ code... http://chunkysoup.net/article/236/FeedsForAllWithhAtomPart2TheCode
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- [16:41:38] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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- [16:56:29] <ajturner>
qid - what's the url?
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- [17:53:39] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [18:02:59] <qid>
ajturner: http://acetylene.ath.cx:8080/microformats/microformats-cheat-sheet.html
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- [18:21:11] <ajturner>
I'm curious as to the structure of the xoxo file
- [18:22:12] <ajturner>
what I'm trying to do is create a parser that automatically reads in your file and then creates mf parsers
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- [18:29:44] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [18:30:28] <qid>
ajturner: that sounds like boiling several oceans at once
- [18:30:55] <ajturner>
qid - that analogy blows my mind :)
- [18:31:07] <qid>
I seem to recall conversations on the mailing list were people were actively discouraged against trying to develop a "universal" microformat parser
- [18:31:16] <ajturner>
I just mean, your XOXO file seems to change formatting along the way
- [18:31:24] <qid>
how so?
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- [18:31:37] <ajturner>
really? well, I have one now that you just say "geo has latitude, longitude props" and then it's a parser
- [18:32:54] <qid>
I imagine what you've actually created is a parser for a superset of the geo format
- [18:33:36] <ajturner>
sorry - the xoxo file you have just splits b/w element and compound
- [18:33:59] <ajturner>
um...
- [18:35:06] <ajturner>
no, there is a general parser - built on scrAPI, that I've defined a generic MF parser and then subsets
- [18:36:38] <qid>
the file I made does not come close to describing the entirety of the specs of any of those formats
- [18:37:33] <qid>
so if you build a parser based on that file, if you're lucky it will parse those formats properly, and it will also parse stuff that isn't really valid
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- [18:38:44] <qid>
e.g. <span class="geo"><span class="latitude longitude">foo bar baz</span></span> is legal if you take the cheat sheet to be a spec
- [18:39:50] <qid>
the cheat sheet is intended to be a human reference to jog your memory, not a parseable spec, and if you use it as such I can virtually guarantee it will bite you
- [18:42:00] <ajturner>
hrm
- [18:42:02] <ajturner>
thx
- [18:42:42] <ajturner>
just thinking of a lightweight xoxo file that generalizes the attributes that are part of an mf. for example, an adr can have street-address, postal-code, etc.
- [18:43:19] <ajturner>
here is what I've done: http://highearthorbit.com/microformat-ruby-parser/
- [18:43:55] <ajturner>
I was thinking an XOXO file could provide the "properties" and "class" and generate these class definitions at runtime - but I think I understand what you're saying
- [18:49:11] <qid>
yeah, here's another problem I noticed from reading your blog
- [18:49:39] <qid>
http://highearthorbit.com/scrapi-microformat-parsing-in-ruby/ <-- you say "The geo microformat looks like:" and give an example
- [18:49:59] <qid>
but the geo uf doesn't have to look like that example, it could use abbr instead
- [18:50:20] <qid>
in which case the data is not in the text inside the tag, it's in the title attribute
- [18:52:52] <ajturner>
yeah, I mentioned that in the last post - which is a good point, that something could be in a attribute or text
- [18:53:10] <ajturner>
how do current parsers handle that?
- [18:53:42] <ajturner>
also, I'm curious how people who parse handle "titling" an adr or geo if it's not part of an hCard
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- [18:58:38] <qid>
current parsers handle that by being more complicated
- [18:59:04] <ajturner>
but what is the logic?
- [18:59:53] <briansuda>
ajturner, i worked on a GEO parser, as for "titling" i am working on a variety of different schemes
- [19:00:00] <briansuda>
if it is an abbr, then use the node-value
- [19:00:12] <briansuda>
if it is a child of class="vcard" use the class="fn"
- [19:00:29] <briansuda>
i am still working on what to grab if it is a child of class="vevent"
- [19:00:49] <briansuda>
the other issue is that not all formats i convert too have a TITLE, DESCRIPTION element
- [19:01:15] <briansuda>
it is still a working in progress, constant flux.
- [19:01:40] <ajturner>
ok
- [19:03:06] <ajturner>
briansuda - for an abbr, what do you mean by the node value?
- [19:03:36] <briansuda>
<abbr title="12.34;56.78" class="geo">Title Here</abbr>
- [19:03:37] <qid>
he was talking about for titling, use the contents of the abbr
- [19:03:45] <briansuda>
i would grab "title here"
- [19:04:07] <ajturner>
well, looking at the geo examples on the wiki - if it's an abbr, then the title is the decimal value of the lat or lon
- [19:04:37] <briansuda>
right, that is the VALUE of the GEO portion of the KML or GEORSS, but for the TITLE portion, i grab the node-value
- [19:04:56] <briansuda>
it is not offically part of any spec, because the GEO only defines the lat/lon
- [19:05:09] <briansuda>
where TITLE DESCRIPTION comes from is up to the implementation
- [19:05:19] <briansuda>
i could (and i think i do) grab the page title for the RSS title
- [19:05:37] <ajturner>
shouldn't the suggested use be in the examples then? so you mean that you would hope/use <span class="geo" title="Tonight's party"><abbr ...
- [19:06:54] <briansuda>
that is certainly a possiblity too? but i would probably take Node-value over @title, and span in this case has a node value, it would be the value of the abbr
- [19:08:04] <ajturner>
so you would title the geo by "N 37° 24.491" and "W 122° 08.313" ?
- [19:08:51] <briansuda>
do you have a link to the example you are talking about? then we can be on the same page.
- [19:09:18] <ajturner>
http://microformats.org/wiki/geo#Real_world_geo_example
- [19:09:54] <ajturner>
or the RFC2426 example
- [19:10:31] <briansuda>
in the "Real world geo example" i probably would pull something like the following"
- [19:10:47] <briansuda>
<point>37.408183 37.408183</point?
- [19:11:03] <briansuda>
<title>N 37° 24.491 W 122° 08.313</title>
- [19:12:32] <ajturner>
that's what I was afraid of :p though putting a suggestion of a title in the geo span would be nice
- [19:12:36] <ajturner>
:)
- [19:12:48] <ajturner>
like putting a clean title in an a-href
- [19:12:56] <briansuda>
this is just an implementation-by-implementation call, TITLE, DESCIPTION, etc is all "value added" and is not directly part of the spec. If you think there is a better we can experiment with that
- [19:13:14] <briansuda>
i'm not sure many people use @title on spans?
- [19:13:27] <ajturner>
well, how many encode with geo? :)
- [19:13:28] <briansuda>
or how often GEO exists without an hCard?
- [19:13:35] <briansuda>
true
- [19:13:52] <ajturner>
but if I'm putting, say, the geo in a blog post, that lat/lon corresponds to a specific place - so titling it seems very beneficial
- [19:14:11] <ajturner>
or an adr that actually said "AMC movie theater"
- [19:14:17] <briansuda>
you can get into a quagmire of all sorts of things, like wrapping an <img> with an <abbr class="geo"> to say where it was taken
- [19:14:31] <briansuda>
then we can use @alt of the img
- [19:14:45] <briansuda>
or if it is in an class="adr" pull that whole things?
- [19:14:58] <pnhChris>
the question i guess that needs to be asked is when are either not really just adr or geo , but really something different like hcard
- [19:15:10] <ajturner>
hrm, what about the relationship discussion? I have my geo(title="Location of Johnny jumping") that relates to the img with an id
- [19:15:11] <briansuda>
it is not hard to do, there is just a massive switch statement and we'd need to hammer how presidence
- [19:15:26] <pnhChris>
AMC movie theater + adr seems like a card to me and not just an adr
- [19:16:18] <ajturner>
pnhChris - good point, though users may not do a whole hCard
- [19:16:31] <briansuda>
yes, i pnhChris, i have been keeping track of all the cities i have visited (for various conferences, etc). Then i mark them up with ADR (and just have locality, region, country - no street-address) that is a good use of ADR without hCard
- [19:16:50] <ajturner>
briansuda - one could argue that is an event ;)
- [19:16:55] <briansuda>
and i add GEO inside that
- [19:17:01] <pnhChris>
right
- [19:17:15] <ajturner>
but that kind of discussion just seems circular, if we're being pragmatic about it, what will the average user actually do
- [19:17:19] <briansuda>
well, i am not talking about events, just "places i have visited in 2006" no reason why i was there
- [19:17:31] <briansuda>
43places.com kinda stuff
- [19:17:50] <pnhChris>
which i don't have any issue with briansuda
- [19:17:58] <ajturner>
ok, so... still using that example - and lets just say that it's not worth putting in a card or event
- [19:18:19] <ajturner>
it still seems beneficial to suggest that you would put a title in the "geo" that describes what that geo or adr is
- [19:18:21] <pnhChris>
its just when you're asking questions like "how can i add more information or description about a point on the globe"
- [19:18:29] <ajturner>
or relate it to a href somewhere else in your post
- [19:18:35] <pnhChris>
i wonder if you really don't want /just/ GEO
- [19:19:05] <pnhChris>
or when geo + label becomes something more .. like hcard
- [19:21:21] <ajturner>
see my comment above re:typical user
- [19:21:57] <ajturner>
I was just looking for a way that a typical user could quickly add a title to a geo - saying they need a card is like saying an href needs a card and relationship
- [19:22:56] <pnhChris>
my point was to caution against building too many rules around either adr or geo to make them more then just the baseic elemental form of a way to mark up just plain coords or just plain addresses
- [19:23:11] <trovster>
I doubt very much that adding information which is useful for the user is the correct use of title here. I reckon tantek will agree that it's wrong to hide this information away
- [19:23:14] <briansuda>
other microformats should not be manditory if they want a label, but because label is OPTIONAL each implementation is going to get that data from different sources in different ways
- [19:23:15] <pnhChris>
if there's another case
- [19:23:19] <pnhChris>
that is "typical"
- [19:23:27] <pnhChris>
then i wouldn't look at it to expand geo
- [19:23:43] <pnhChris>
but either say "ou should use X here" or look for other alternatives, or a new format
- [19:24:35] <ajturner>
so if I want to add a title to a geo/adr, a user needs to use a whole card?
- [19:24:52] <pnhChris>
that may be so
- [19:25:04] <pnhChris>
or it may be that you need soemthing else
- [19:25:05] <ajturner>
that seems heavy handed
- [19:25:18] <briansuda>
no, they don't NEED a card, but implementations might not honor how they choose to implement a label
- [19:25:19] <ajturner>
what else is there if I want to specify a lat/lon and name for that lat/lon?
- [19:25:41] <pnhChris>
perhaps its something we need to create
- [19:26:12] <ajturner>
dubious that YAF is needed
- [19:26:20] <pnhChris>
though I'd first wonder what is the big hurdle in creating "a whole card"
- [19:26:31] <briansuda>
there was a GEO BOF at where 2.0, those notes are somewhere on the wiki i think
- [19:26:47] <ajturner>
2.0 2005?
- [19:26:48] <briansuda>
i'm sure alot of geo people were all together talking about this very topic
- [19:26:59] <pnhChris>
is it that you're dealing with place vs. person or org/business?
- [19:27:28] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/geo-bof-2005-06-30
- [19:27:33] <ajturner>
well, when you write a url , do you include a card? or do you usually just put a title like "Microformat Wiki: geo"
- [19:27:54] <pnhChris>
but show me the geo case
- [19:27:55] <briansuda>
http://microformats.org/wiki/location-formats
- [19:28:44] <ajturner>
not really illuminating
- [19:29:22] <ajturner>
<span class="geo" title="Geocache #34872"><abbr ...</span>
- [19:29:49] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Client Quit)
- [19:29:53] <ajturner>
vs. just saying: Geocache #34872 can be found at <span class="geo">...</span>
- [19:30:17] <ajturner>
or even: I went geocaching today near ...
- [19:31:05] <ajturner>
or simpler - i have a plugin that attaches geo coords to a blog post from where I wrote it as pulled from my GPS receiver. I want the title to be associated with the blog post title
- [19:31:30] <ajturner>
It's still just a "geo", but I want to name it
- [19:31:51] <ajturner>
also, would be nice if any img I have in the post taken there could reference a relationship to that geo
- [19:31:55] * pnhChris puts on tantek hat and suggests hatom + tag
- [19:32:19] <pnhChris>
or something similar
- [19:32:20] <pnhChris>
but
- [19:32:44] <briansuda>
i see ajturner's point about a LABEL, but that is sort of an issue above GEO
- [19:33:00] <ajturner>
isn't that just in the Atom feed though?
- [19:33:10] <pnhChris>
i still don't see you trying to better define the point.. but using the point to better define or tag something else
- [19:33:45] <ajturner>
so do I create an card for the blog entry - or for the geocache?
- [19:34:06] <ajturner>
many of the other MF have a way to have a title/label
- [19:34:15] <ajturner>
though the "relationship" is a diff't issue
- [19:35:51] <briansuda>
well, there are various ways to get a title/label
- [19:35:55] <pnhChris>
in the <span class="geo" title="Geocache #34872"><abbr case i'm still not sure how you'd resolve the usage with contents of the abbrs...
- [19:36:17] <briansuda>
each implementation of GEO will be different because LABEL is not in the GEO spec.
- [19:36:38] <pnhChris>
in all other cases, where the name of the location is visible content or you're trying to hook up the relationship i'd personally think that you need something that has geo as an element (such as hcard)
- [19:36:46] <briansuda>
as you suggested earlier, GEO could use the @title, or FN from hCard, or SUMMARY from hCal, or entry-title from hAtom
- [19:36:47] <ajturner>
briansuda - kind of my question, is there something about the spec I'm missing for geo-label, or should it be added?
- [19:37:45] <briansuda>
well, part of the reason GEO is the way it is, is because it was abstracted from vCard, which doesn't have a LABEL
- [19:38:12] * pnhChris wouldn't be opposed to expanding hcard naming rules to allow places that are explicitly not people or businessness, but wouldn't be to forceful on it
- [19:38:15] <briansuda>
if you can find enough "real world examples" etc, it could find it's way in
- [19:38:40] <briansuda>
class="fn" gets reused ALOT, so something like this would be acceptable: (w/o hcard)
- [19:39:23] <briansuda>
<div class="geo">i found my <span class="fn">geo cache 1234</span> at <lat/lon here></div>
- [19:39:30] <pnhChris>
briansuda: so a hLocation? or expanding the definiiton of geo and making sure you resolve it with formats where geo is included?
- [19:40:52] <briansuda>
all of this should be run by the mailing-list, but it could be useful to add an optional new element as a child of "geo" called "fn" so geo could have 3 children "fn, latitude, longitude" (of course, you can use FN when GEO is a child of an hCard)
- [19:41:04] <briansuda>
i don't think a new format would be needed
- [19:41:29] <pnhChris>
whats the meaning of fn on geo when geo is a child of hcard?
- [19:41:33] <briansuda>
and this won't work when you are using the ABBR element
- [19:41:45] <briansuda>
"formatted name"
- [19:42:25] <pnhChris>
is it just discareded? is there a formatted name for the card and a second one explicitly for the geo point?
- [19:42:33] <pnhChris>
discarded*
- [19:42:49] <pnhChris>
(similarly with adr)
- [19:44:21] <pnhChris>
(i'm not trying to shoot down the idea.. in some cases i think it might work.. e.g. the name of a building as part of the adr.. just not sure its workable.. how consumers would dea)
- [19:44:25] <pnhChris>
deal*
- [19:44:54] <briansuda>
this would only be used when there is NO hCard, if GEO is a child of hCard, my extraction "looks up the tree" to see if it is a child, and if it is, then uses the FN from hCard
- [19:45:44] <briansuda>
the tricky thing is that you would have to show that you NEED a label format where you CAN'T use an hCard in that same situation.
- [19:46:51] <briansuda>
i think it can probably be solved without a label property, we;d just need to create (implementation by implementation) a list of all the places "to look for" a label
- [19:47:21] <briansuda>
if it is a child of hCard grab the FN, if it is a child of hCal, use SUMMARY, if it is a child of hAtom, entry-name, etc.
- [19:48:16] <briansuda>
if there are situations that the list CAN'T handle, and we can show that people are publishing that data, then we can look to possibly add some sort of LABEL to GEO.
- [19:48:55] <briansuda>
i'm not as involved in the GEO community as others, so maybe there IS a legitimate need which needs to be brought to our attention
- [19:49:12] <pnhChris>
sounds messy.. but i've stated my concerns... so i'll get out of the way
- [19:49:31] <briansuda>
:)
- [19:50:16] <briansuda>
sometimes it is just a good idea to get everything out on the table, good and bad, so we know why the bad ideas were rejected
- [19:50:45] <pnhChris>
i guess i see it form two sides
- [19:50:55] <pnhChris>
a parser who wants to label a point
- [19:51:09] <pnhChris>
or consuming app that does after parsing
- [19:51:17] <pnhChris>
and an author who really isn't talking about a point
- [19:51:22] <pnhChris>
but more then that
- [19:51:25] <pnhChris>
or an adr
- [19:53:33] <pnhChris>
i don't think HTML semantics allow for one to say flatly that if geo is used in some content it will relate to its parent or great grandparent element to grab their title... but if a parser wants to do that it can weigh that concern
- [19:54:16] <briansuda>
right, partly because GEO doesn't map to ONE spec, so LABELs are not global like lat/lon
- [19:54:25] <pnhChris>
but if you're an author trying to really descript where you were when you took a picture, posted a blog post, or defining a geocache point, then, "typical user" aside you're really not defining a set of geo coords but soemthign else
- [19:55:10] <briansuda>
true and that is where (hopefully) one of the many other MFs will help, or as ajturner was suggesting use the @title attribute or something else.
- [19:55:16] <pnhChris>
and i can't seem to type this afternoon :P
- [19:55:36] <briansuda>
some of that "extra" value added stuff is up to each implementation to extract
- [19:56:18] <briansuda>
some implementations will do better than others and we are back to a competitive market which will also drive support for a better GEO format.
- [19:58:30] * pnhChris doesn't know enough about geo + coords usage to know what consuming apps might use raw coords / geo data for anyway
- [19:59:14] <bewest>
maps
- [19:59:34] <pnhChris>
of?
- [19:59:35] <bewest>
google maps has made it insanely easy to build mapping applications
- [19:59:39] <bewest>
of stuff
- [19:59:43] <pnhChris>
bingo
- [19:59:49] <pnhChris>
"stuff is here"
- [19:59:53] <pnhChris>
not "point is here"
- [20:00:18] <pnhChris>
which is where my hangup is in this topic
- [20:00:24] <bewest>
meh... it's usually implicitly understood that a point on a map is not really a point
- [20:00:31] <pnhChris>
"here's where are members are"
- [20:00:46] <bewest>
but represents some threshold within a radius around that point, respective to the kind of thing being represented
- [20:00:59] <bewest>
people publish points all the time to represent large things...
- [20:01:02] <bewest>
even moving things
- [20:01:03] <bewest>
hurricanes
- [20:01:05] <bewest>
buildings
- [20:01:06] <bewest>
people
- [20:01:12] <pnhChris>
"here's a view of where i was for each of my blog posts on my site" (or each of my photos in flickr
- [20:01:34] <pnhChris>
right
- [20:01:40] <bewest>
but even then it doesn't represent a point
- [20:01:44] <bewest>
it represents an area
- [20:01:59] <pnhChris>
i just don't have a clear example in my mind of how one would consume "geo" and not soemthing else
- [20:02:12] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
- [20:02:13] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [20:03:07] <pnhChris>
"here's all the points i ever mentioned on my blog" seems like a stretch to me
- [20:03:10] <tantek>
good morning
- [20:08:14] <pnhChris>
something like a list of coords in an orienteering event or some directions along a hiking trail i can see useful.. but I don't know how you'd present that with markup and explicit labels instead of just points.. or again.. some other format for decsribing the whole course or trail
- [20:08:24] * pnhChris steps aside, again
- [20:08:25] <pnhChris>
:P
- [20:08:49] <pnhChris>
not very good at that, am i? hehe
- [20:09:43] <pnhChris>
and good.. er.. morning tantek
- [20:10:11] * pnhChris wonders what tantek's current geo is that he thinks its morning
- [20:11:27] <drewinthehead>
it's sunday, pnhChris, so any daylight hour is an acceptable value for 'morning' :)
- [20:20:08] * Molly (n=Molly@ip68-0-175-195.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:20:18] <Molly>
hello all
- [20:20:24] <briansuda>
hello
- [20:20:29] <Molly>
Hey Brian!
- [20:20:46] <Molly>
how goes it? Glad you're here. I have a couple of questions / clarifications and could use your insight
- [20:20:58] <drewinthehead>
hey molly
- [20:21:01] <Molly>
hey drew :)
- [20:21:05] <Molly>
how goes?
- [20:21:08] <tantek>
pnhchris, morning is dependent on geo, it is dependent on sleep cycle ;)
- [20:21:16] <Molly>
hey tantek
- [20:21:16] <tantek>
morning is not dependent on geo that is :)
- [20:21:22] <briansuda>
not a problem, we've just been discussing Geo-Coordinates!
- [20:21:31] * pnhChris pours some coffee for everyone
- [20:21:38] * tantek read the whole geo discussion AKA "named locations" (without calling it that, ironically)
- [20:21:42] * Molly wonders if she could have a tea
- [20:21:48] <Molly>
with ice please
- [20:22:00] * tantek saw the sunrise this morning :)
- [20:22:05] <Molly>
so here's my question, just trying to sort some things out
- [20:22:22] <Molly>
Tantek, don't you often see the sunrise?
- [20:22:39] <Molly>
(that wasn't hte question ;-))
- [20:22:46] <tantek>
not often, no
- [20:23:18] <Molly>
so, okay, clarifying open and closed data formats, and trying to sort out where vCard and iCalendar for example fit in.
- [20:23:48] <Molly>
is the Microformat alternative based on the idea that there are some restrictions for vCard, let's say
- [20:23:55] <Molly>
(because developers have to agree to support it)
- [20:24:08] <Molly>
or because it's simply a "let's not reinvent the wheel" idea?
- [20:24:10] <Molly>
or both?
- [20:25:42] <briansuda>
Lets not reinvent the wheel is a big reason, if there are millions of desktop apps that can already import vCards, then we should certainly look to export and model that, so we can leverage the existing apps
- [20:25:45] <tantek>
there are some restrictions for vCard? huh?
- [20:25:57] <tantek>
because developers have to agree to support it? huh?
- [20:26:03] <Molly>
i'm not saying there are
- [20:26:14] <tantek>
leading question again?
- [20:26:15] <ajturner>
.whereis tantek
- [20:26:29] <whereisbot>
[off] tantek is probably in San Francisco, CA, US (guessed) [37.8133 x -122.505] (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=37.8133,-122.505+(tantek))
- [20:26:39] <Molly>
i'm just trying to figure out the primary reason microformat alternatives exist where there are standards like iCalendar and vCard
- [20:26:46] <tantek>
molly, that's easy
- [20:26:51] <Molly>
good!
- [20:26:52] <tantek>
those standards don't work for web content
- [20:26:52] <Molly>
:)
- [20:26:54] <tantek>
next question
- [20:26:56] <tantek>
:)
- [20:27:00] <Molly>
okay, specifically why
- [20:27:04] <Molly>
that's what I'm trying to get to.
- [20:27:05] <trovster>
Hey, tantek is in the sea!
- [20:27:10] <Molly>
software, etc?
- [20:27:16] <Molly>
in other words, my app has to support it
- [20:27:21] <tantek>
molly, try putting some icalendar or vcard in your HTML
- [20:27:27] <briansuda>
out-of-site-out of mind, hidden data gets stall quickly
- [20:27:31] <tantek>
and come back with how (not) well it works ;)
- [20:27:36] <Molly>
okay, so explain to me as if I were a child
- [20:27:39] <Molly>
which some say I am :)
- [20:27:48] <Molly>
why hcard is not hidden
- [20:27:52] <Molly>
and vcard is
- [20:28:07] <tantek>
is your about page hidden molly?
- [20:28:23] <tantek>
to put it simply:
- [20:28:37] <tantek>
web authors/publishers publish their contact info in HTML
- [20:28:41] <briansuda>
Molly, i had a FoaF file, it can't really be viewed through a web browser, so i never looked at it, XFN i see every day, when i looked at the FoaF it was horribly out of date, XFN rarely is
- [20:28:46] <tantek>
far more often then they do in vCard
- [20:28:57] <tantek>
...they publish their events far more often in HTML
- [20:29:01] <tantek>
than they do in iCalendar
- [20:29:08] <tantek>
it is a simple matter of "follow the content"
- [20:29:18] <Molly>
okay, so what specifically makes something "hidden"
- [20:29:24] <tantek>
microformats are designed to work the way content authors/publishers are used to working
- [20:29:27] <tantek>
period
- [20:29:29] <Molly>
just harder to access because it's not in the common format for the Web?
- [20:29:30] <briansuda>
vCards are similar, they can't be viewed through the browser window. Therefore, they are more likely to get stale.... (and everything Tantek said too)
- [20:29:38] <tantek>
molly, can you see it when you visit a web page?
- [20:29:41] <tantek>
if yes, then it is visible
- [20:29:45] <tantek>
if no, then it is hidden
- [20:29:57] <briansuda>
they [FoaF, vCard, iCal] are not in HTML
- [20:30:16] <Molly>
i'm still wanting a really tight definition for "hidden"
- [20:30:19] * tantek is amazed at how many broken-record attempts there are to stick data in hidden places.
- [20:30:28] <tantek>
molly, why?
- [20:30:37] <tantek>
can you see it when you browse the web page or not?
- [20:30:38] <Molly>
so I can explain it to people who don't understand it
- [20:30:41] <tantek>
why is that insufficient?
- [20:30:53] <tantek>
people understand when they can see something or when they can't
- [20:31:02] <Molly>
Because my thought is well, I can see the link to a vCard just as easily as I can see a link to an hCard
- [20:31:19] <tantek>
link != content
- [20:31:29] <tantek>
whose talking about links?
- [20:31:33] <Molly>
So the content must equally be there
- [20:31:33] <tantek>
we're talking about *content*
- [20:32:04] <briansuda>
To answer one of your earlier Questions: Your local desktop application DOES have to support vCard and/or iCal, but those are SO ubiquitous that it is difficult NOT to find an app that does
- [20:32:06] <Molly>
okay, that's clearer.
- [20:32:10] <Molly>
That's MUST clearer
- [20:32:13] <Molly>
er MUCH
- [20:32:22] <Molly>
to say "not hidden means it's in the content"
- [20:32:51] <Molly>
so hidden versus not hidden is or isn't an issue of open data?
- [20:32:58] <Molly>
or is hidden versus not hidden data
- [20:33:01] <Molly>
and open versus closed data
- [20:33:02] <tantek>
molly, your distinction between content and links wouldn't make any sense to a "normal" person anyway
- [20:33:09] <tantek>
so i'm not sure why you brought that up
- [20:33:10] <Molly>
two separate conversations?
- [20:33:21] <Molly>
cuz I'm not normal?
- [20:33:29] <Molly>
I'm just trying to patch some holes here
- [20:33:35] <tantek>
but you said you were trying to explain it for normal people
- [20:33:45] <tantek>
then you made a distinction that normal people wouldn't understand
- [20:33:53] <Molly>
don't confuse me. Seriously.
- [20:34:05] <tantek>
so i don't understand what you're trying to do, or perhaps how the questions you are asking relate to what you're trying to do
- [20:34:12] <Molly>
You have to remember you guys understand this stuff far better than most, and I'm trying to get more clear to help you and others
- [20:34:16] <Molly>
I"m just the middle person here
- [20:34:16] <briansuda>
By Open, i am assuming you mean, open to see the format and can replicate it?
- [20:34:32] <tantek>
open/closed hidden/visible are different yes
- [20:34:35] <Molly>
open: accessible, free from royalties
- [20:34:42] <briansuda>
By Closed you mean something like a proprietary format which no one legally knows what's going on inside?
- [20:34:55] <tantek>
molly, brian you just confused formats vs. content
- [20:34:59] <Molly>
closed: proprietary, royalty or licence based
- [20:35:10] <Molly>
licence/license
- [20:35:11] <tantek>
molly, not that black & white
- [20:35:16] <Molly>
well help me
- [20:35:17] <tantek>
there are more and less open formats
- [20:35:19] <Molly>
that's why it's not clear
- [20:35:28] <tantek>
that's a whole nother discussion
- [20:35:36] <tantek>
mostly orthogonal from microformats
- [20:35:39] <tantek>
and not really that interesting
- [20:37:13] <briansuda>
So Molly, what is the question(s) you are seeking an answer too?
- [20:37:17] <tantek>
microformats, w3c, ietf etc. are all on the pretty extremely open side of open standards, so those of us involved in them don't worry about it too much, and the things we do worry about have very little to do with the full spectrum closed vs. open debate
- [20:38:09] <Molly>
brian, i guess i don't know.
- [20:39:43] <Molly>
how come every time i come in here i end up more confused than less?
- [20:39:50] <briansuda>
:)
- [20:39:57] <Molly>
it's not funny, really.
- [20:40:34] <briansuda>
you gave us 3 questions to answer and we all went out of turn, alot came at you at once.
- [20:41:01] <briansuda>
1 Question at a time and we can help clarrify it for you
- [20:41:25] <tantek>
that's a good point brian
- [20:41:36] <Molly>
that's a circular argument. If I don't know what to ask for
- [20:41:43] <Molly>
i just have to do my best
- [20:41:49] <Molly>
look
- [20:41:52] <Molly>
let me make one point guys
- [20:41:57] <Molly>
if I have these kind of questions
- [20:42:09] <Molly>
and I'm not your average garden variety uneducated web developer here
- [20:42:23] <Molly>
then you tell me if you think it's just me, or lots of people.
- [20:42:24] <Molly>
honestly.
- [20:43:30] * pnhChris hits the rewind button
- [20:43:34] <drewinthehead>
it's not just you
- [20:45:06] <drewinthehead>
one of the big advantages of having hCard in your page rather than just a link to a vCard is that it means you're just publishing/maintaining the data ONCE, and you're putting that to the best use you can.
- [20:45:52] <Molly>
i understand.
- [20:46:02] <drewinthehead>
as soon as you have to publish in two formats (on the page as plain old HTML and in a vCard) you're creating lots of work, and the risk is that the one no-one sees the data for (the vCard - it's just a link) goes out of date
- [20:46:24] <drewinthehead>
so if you're publishing the plain old HTML anyway, let's make it useful.
- [20:46:31] <Molly>
Thanks Drew. That's helpful and I do understand the concept.
- [20:46:36] <Molly>
where I'm getting caught is nomenclature
- [20:46:40] <Molly>
hidden versus not hidden
- [20:46:43] <Molly>
open versus closed
- [20:46:55] <Molly>
and I'm sure this is in part why others have trouble too.
- [20:46:58] <Molly>
the concept is easy
- [20:47:04] <Molly>
it's the language that's confusing
- [20:47:54] <briansuda>
ok, open/closed is a separate issue, that is not a technical one, more of a social (some one can correct me)
- [20:48:23] <briansuda>
hidden/visible is bringing more data IN FRONT of the user, via HTML
- [20:48:51] <pnhChris>
hidden vs. visible is just that the information *is* content and should be marked up as such.. as text that is visible when visiting the page in a standard browser.. so you can see things like addresses just by visiting the page / without any need to extract the information from inside xml islands or comments or other devices
- [20:49:05] <Molly>
I understand it now, guys
- [20:49:06] <briansuda>
non-HTML files, RSS, vCards, iCals are all files that get DOWNLOADED not viewed.
- [20:49:07] <Molly>
really, I do :)
- [20:49:22] <drewinthehead>
META tags = invisible :)
- [20:50:43] <drewinthehead>
that's a nice parallel that can aid understanding ... look how many sites have out-of-date keywords hidden in the HEAD
- [20:51:55] <Molly>
this is all very helpful, thank you.
- [20:52:21] <Molly>
far more helpful to have actual examples than talk the ideology. It's just that, however, that I worry about
- [20:52:47] <drewinthehead>
it's the humans first thing that i think is most confusing :)
- [20:52:59] <Molly>
because I don't want to spread innacurate ideas, so that's why I clarify my questions first.
- [20:53:20] <Molly>
it's nomenclature, too. That's the biggest stumbling block. If I call hidden closed
- [20:53:27] <Molly>
then I'm inaccurate and confusing
- [20:53:54] <Molly>
that's all, that's what I was looking for. The clarification of the relationship between open/closed data and hidden/visible data
- [20:54:18] <drewinthehead>
so you're cool on the open/closed bit?
- [20:54:53] <Molly>
I have always understood that. And I understand hidden/visible. But not the relationship, per se.
- [20:54:58] <Molly>
Here, let me give an example
- [20:55:13] <qid>
open/closed are somewhat more ambiguous terms than hidden/visible, you could probably use a compound term like "legally open"/"legally closed" to be clearer
- [20:55:18] <Molly>
Designer A reads about open data formats, he or she thinks okay, makes sense
- [20:55:44] <Molly>
Designer A then reads about microformats and let's say vCard
- [20:55:56] <Molly>
and thinks "okay, why do I use one over the other"
- [20:56:06] <Molly>
it's not clear to Designer A who hasn't made the distinction yet
- [20:56:10] <Molly>
between what is hidden/visible
- [20:56:24] <drewinthehead>
right
- [20:56:26] <Molly>
what the relationship is. To them, vCard is supported, so what's the problem? Okay, WE know what the problem is
- [20:56:45] <Molly>
but it's not a clear metaphor. It's like the term "relative positioning"
- [20:57:03] <Molly>
it's caused more problems in educating designers than I can count
- [20:57:21] <Molly>
relative to what? open to what? Hidden from what? What I recommend for everyone, including myself
- [20:57:27] <Molly>
is we clarify these things to audiences up front
- [20:57:59] <Molly>
qid: good idea thx
- [20:58:21] <drewinthehead>
it's content vs format, isn't it
- [20:58:29] <drewinthehead>
visible or hidden content
- [20:58:34] <drewinthehead>
open or closed format
- [20:59:17] <drewinthehead>
and then you have open or closed content, which is usually a licensing / copyright thing
- [20:59:43] <Molly>
this is good
- [20:59:51] <Molly>
tantek, you started to say something about that earlier
- [20:59:54] <Molly>
content v. format
- [21:00:04] <Molly>
that's interesting to me.
- [21:00:09] <Molly>
what's the difference?
- [21:00:50] <drewinthehead>
content is the data - the name and contact information in this case
- [21:01:03] <drewinthehead>
format is the technical way in which that content is held
- [21:02:04] <pnhChris>
.JPG vs. "a picture of my dog"
- [21:02:16] <Molly>
haha
- [21:02:17] <qid>
a good synonym for format would be language
- [21:03:49] <Molly>
would this be a correct paragraph?
- [21:03:54] <Molly>
"Formats such as vCard and iCal can provide customers powerful options, but limit Web professionals who seek easier access, updates, styling and management of personal data via the Web. Microformats, which embrace a core philosophy of extending existing markup to solve specific problems, are helping developers and designers solve these limitations today."
- [21:05:42] <drewinthehead>
i see nothing incorrect
- [21:06:51] <Molly>
thanks Drew. I'll go work on this article. If I get done with it soon I'll come back and anyone who is interested or able I'd be grateful if you would take a quick look at it then. Sorry to interrupt your GEO conversation
- [21:06:52] <Molly>
:)
- [21:07:02] <qid>
sounds fine, although I'm not sure what the word "access" means there
- [21:07:02] <Molly>
my coordinates: Too far south, too damned hot.
- [21:07:10] <ajturner>
.whereis MOlly
- [21:07:13] <whereisbot>
[off] MOlly is probably in Tucson, AZ, US [32.1958 x -110.892] (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=32.1958,-110.892+(MOlly))
- [21:07:19] <ajturner>
apparently ;)
- [21:07:21] <Molly>
:)
- [21:07:59] <Molly>
access to the code, I can tighten that by dropping it, good point qid thanks
- [21:08:22] <tantek>
molly, "limit Web professionals" is correct but perhaps a bit misleading
- [21:08:23] <drewinthehead>
i like that the satellite version of that map is mostly brown ;)
- [21:08:35] <tantek>
it's like saying that having to do more work is limiting
- [21:08:48] <Molly>
ah, how about...
- [21:08:52] <tantek>
shall we do a quick vCard vs. hCard?
- [21:08:56] <Molly>
prevent?
- [21:08:57] <Molly>
no, I have that
- [21:08:59] <tantek>
vCard - separate file
- [21:09:01] <Molly>
I don't need any of that
- [21:09:10] <tantek>
hCard - content already in your web page
- [21:09:26] <tantek>
vCard - requires a new URL to serve it
- [21:09:36] <tantek>
hCard - is just part of a current URL on your website
- [21:09:38] <drewinthehead>
'burden' fits from my perspective ;)
- [21:09:52] <qid>
+1 to drew's suggestion
- [21:09:59] <tantek>
vCard - requires dealing with another MIME/Content type
- [21:10:15] <tantek>
hCard - is just part of your HTML
- [21:11:18] <tantek>
vCard - requires learning a new text format where colons and semicolons and commas have special meaning
- [21:11:30] <tantek>
hCard - requires learning a few HTML class names
- [21:11:33] <qid>
vCard - old and busted; hCard - new hotness
- [21:11:49] * daavid (n=daavid@wkac.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
- [21:12:26] <drewinthehead>
the problem currently is that people aren't even really publishing vCards and iCal as alternatives to web content, because it's so much effort .. so the data often doesn't exist in any structured format
- [21:12:36] <tantek>
right
- [21:13:15] <drewinthehead>
so the data's dying
- [21:15:39] <drewinthehead>
poor data.
- [21:16:05] <Molly>
useless
- [21:16:33] <Molly>
empty shells of nothingness scattered on the highway of forgotten meaning.
- [21:16:51] <briansuda>
information superhighway roadkill
- [21:16:58] <Molly>
rofl
- [21:18:34] <drewinthehead>
actually, that's not quite right, as it's still useful for humans, and we're all about the people.
- [21:19:06] <drewinthehead>
just of limited use beyond its initial publishing
- [21:19:43] <Molly>
we were trying for leverage, I think, armadillo head :P
- [21:20:20] <drewinthehead>
you leave hArmadillo out of this ;)
- [21:20:44] <Molly>
oh damn, there's an hArmadillo microformat now? I shoulda known
- [21:21:02] <Molly>
okay, here's one
- [21:21:38] <Molly>
so if RSS, vCards, iCals are all examples of "hidden"
- [21:21:50] <Molly>
oh, and meta keywords, that's a good one for this audience
- [21:21:57] * gsnedders can't remember what an armadillo is (well, a bird, but no more), yet alone what the microformat based on it is
- [21:22:04] <Molly>
anything, absolutely anything that is visible on the page
- [21:22:09] <Molly>
is considered visible data?
- [21:22:13] <Molly>
is that true?
- [21:22:27] * Molly points out that an armadillo is not a bird
- [21:22:50] * gsnedders points out that he's mad, as he told Molly a couple of days ago
- [21:23:05] <Molly>
:)
- [21:23:15] * gsnedders wikipedia's armadillo
- [21:23:29] <gsnedders>
*wikipedias, surely
- [21:24:08] * gsnedders goes back to lurking in the dark and shady depths of #microformats
- [21:24:34] * Molly thinks about armadillo roadkill
- [21:24:48] * Molly thinks she just came up with the name for a band! HA! Armadillo Roadkill
- [21:25:26] * gsnedders laughs, just loud enough to be heard at the surface of this channel
- [21:25:33] <Molly>
(sorry drew lol)
- [21:26:09] <drewinthehead>
Molly - right, that's literally what visible means in this context
- [21:27:38] <gsnedders>
so anything that's in the actual HTML is visible?
- [21:27:53] <Molly>
actually not if it's not displayed on the page
- [21:27:58] <Molly>
a meta keyword is in the HTML
- [21:28:00] <Molly>
and is not visible
- [21:28:05] <Molly>
right?
- [21:28:13] <drewinthehead>
right
- [21:28:20] <Molly>
so specifically, it's in the body portion of the document as content
- [21:28:32] * daavid (n=daavid@wkac.ac.uk) Quit ()
- [21:28:42] <drewinthehead>
and not squirrel away in a tag or comment
- [21:28:42] <Molly>
again, the primary word i'm seeing emerge here is visible = displayed content
- [21:29:07] <Molly>
what about an element that has its visibility set to hidden or display to none?
- [21:29:28] <drewinthehead>
grey area, in my mind :)
- [21:29:41] * daavid (n=daavid@wkac.ac.uk) has joined #microformats
- [21:29:46] <Molly>
really?
- [21:29:48] <drewinthehead>
i know a few people are doing that - having, say, an hCard on every page and hiding it with CSS
- [21:30:08] <drewinthehead>
personally, i'd try not to do that
- [21:30:17] <Molly>
seems like a form of personal information spam
- [21:30:28] <Molly>
in the context of discussion
- [21:30:31] <Molly>
it defeats the entire purpose
- [21:30:45] <drewinthehead>
it defeats a good amount of the purpose
- [21:30:46] <gsnedders>
it'd be visible in UAs that don't support CSS, therefore it'd be perfectly possible for it to be visible to a microformats parser
- [21:31:07] <drewinthehead>
hence the grey
- [21:31:15] <drewinthehead>
i'd be interested in tantek's thoughts on this
- [21:31:19] <Molly>
yeah, me too :)
- [21:31:56] <Molly>
Tantek? Is content that is hidden via CSS to a given user agent considered visible or hidden data?
- [21:32:05] <Molly>
It's visible to some UAs, and without the style there, it's visible
- [21:32:09] <Molly>
that's definitely interesting
- [21:32:38] <tantek>
yeah, that's the difference with using CSS for the "visibility"
- [21:32:54] <tantek>
in the end it is up to the browser/user to determine the visibility of such content
- [21:32:58] <tantek>
as opposed to the provider
- [21:33:07] <tantek>
which is a subtle but important difference
- [21:33:34] <Molly>
okay, fair enough. But is the content visible or hidden?
- [21:33:45] <gsnedders>
if it's in a UA that doesn't visibly render the page, should it display the microformat?
- [21:33:45] <Molly>
If I can't see it because I have CSS enabled as normal, just browsing around
- [21:33:50] <Molly>
and someone's done what drew's described
- [21:34:05] <Molly>
(boy this is a "if a tree falls in a forest" question isn't it)
- [21:34:28] <gsnedders>
Molly: (it does make a sound :))
- [21:34:43] <Molly>
according to that logic, then gsnedders
- [21:34:48] <Molly>
if I can't see it, it's not visible.
- [21:34:53] <tantek>
molly, what about SIFR techniques?
- [21:35:02] <tantek>
does using negative text-indent make a heading invisible?
- [21:35:19] <gsnedders>
but if it's replaced it's visible
- [21:35:27] <tantek>
if the resource is missing?
- [21:35:39] <Molly>
not if style is there no
- [21:35:41] <Molly>
not visible.
- [21:35:59] <gsnedders>
but doesn't SIFR check if Flash is enabled?
- [21:36:09] <Molly>
I think Tantek means Phark here too
- [21:36:14] <tantek>
if you want to talk down this path of questions molly, then you will have be willing to let go of the artificial dichotomy of hidden vs. visible and be open to a visibility spectrum.
- [21:36:18] <Molly>
just the idea of taking something off the screen
- [21:36:33] <Molly>
oh boy Tantek
- [21:36:37] <Molly>
Can I quote that? LOL
- [21:36:38] <tantek>
you decide how complex you want your model to be
- [21:36:45] <Molly>
for my readers, for now
- [21:36:49] <Molly>
the simple metaphor works
- [21:36:51] <tantek>
if you want to walk down this path
- [21:36:52] <tantek>
that is
- [21:36:54] <Molly>
but I think the question is a fair one
- [21:37:05] <tantek>
of course the question is a fair one
- [21:37:17] <Molly>
so let's back up one sec
- [21:37:17] <tantek>
but be prepared for the answer to make you have to ask more questions
- [21:37:32] <drewinthehead>
blue pill / red pill?
- [21:37:36] <gsnedders>
so does it depend on how big the view box (as it's called in SVG) change if something like Phark is visible, so therefore make the microformat visible?
- [21:37:41] <Molly>
damned slippery slope
- [21:37:57] <tantek>
visibility is like an onion ;)
- [21:37:58] <Molly>
let me get my good hiking shoes on
- [21:38:18] <Molly>
is it fair to use the hidden / visible metaphor at an introductory level?
- [21:38:21] <Molly>
Because if you tell me no, now
- [21:38:35] <tantek>
molly, it's not a metaphor when it represents reality
- [21:38:38] <Molly>
I'm really going to bang my head against the wall
- [21:38:49] <gsnedders>
Molly: it depends how complex you get into whether something is visible.
- [21:38:51] <tantek>
a desk isn't a metaphor for a working surface
- [21:38:57] <tantek>
a desk *is* a working surface
- [21:39:07] <Molly>
let me rephrase
- [21:39:14] * tantek objects to metametaphor abuse.
- [21:39:19] <Molly>
is it far to say, to this audience
- [21:39:53] <Molly>
that hidden data is such data as vCard, iCalendar, RSS, PDF, RSS - etc.
- [21:39:59] <Molly>
and visible data is the content of the web page?
- [21:40:04] <Molly>
no metaphor intended
- [21:40:42] <Molly>
if that's fair to say
- [21:40:43] <tantek>
close, but imprecise enough that advocates of all those other technologies will scream out many excuses
- [21:40:47] <Molly>
oh sit
- [21:40:48] <Molly>
shit
- [21:40:53] <tantek>
and simply confuse the discussion
- [21:40:59] <Molly>
why am I even trying then?
- [21:41:06] <Molly>
Why aren't you writing these damned articles instead?
- [21:41:11] <tantek>
not sure what you are trying to do molly
- [21:41:13] <Molly>
I'm obviously incapable of getting it right and it's frustrating me
- [21:41:30] <gsnedders>
seems a clear and simple definition, apart from how simple it is
- [21:41:37] <tantek>
no, it just takes precision and effort to get it right
- [21:41:40] <Molly>
let me share what I have so far
- [21:41:40] <tantek>
you're getting closer
- [21:41:42] <Molly>
hang on
- [21:41:49] <gsnedders>
(therefore brining in what tantek was saying)
- [21:41:52] <Molly>
well effort I've given it
- [21:41:58] <gsnedders>
*bringing
- [21:42:26] <tantek>
let me break it down like this molly
- [21:43:07] <tantek>
if you want to compare microformats vs. vCard, iCalendar, etc., then you have to talk about *more* than just visiblity. visibility is only one difference. that's why I gave you the brief hCard vs. vCard list above.
- [21:43:11] <tantek>
however
- [21:43:41] <Molly>
http://www.molly.com/hiddendata/ (ignore the formatting I just threw the text up there)
- [21:43:44] <tantek>
if you want to talk about hidden vs. visible then you have to talk about the visibility of specific features/aspects of microformats vs. the visibility of specific/features/aspects of all those other formats
- [21:44:38] * tantek reads molly's url
- [21:45:35] <tantek>
good draft
- [21:45:42] <tantek>
I see the distinction you are trying to make
- [21:45:48] <tantek>
and trying to come up with a label for "A" vs. "B"
- [21:45:49] <Molly>
it makes so much sense here
- [21:46:03] <Molly>
the average web designer will understand this
- [21:46:06] <tantek>
the problem is that using "hidden" and "visible" for those labels is not quite correct
- [21:46:17] <Molly>
and then I was going to go into simple examples
- [21:46:20] <tantek>
the overall difference is more like
- [21:46:32] <tantek>
non-web-native formats vs. web-native formats (e.g. HTML)
- [21:47:03] <Molly>
I can see that
- [21:47:06] <Molly>
and that makes fine sense
- [21:47:10] <Molly>
no problem there
- [21:47:21] <tantek>
and hidden vs. visible is a coarse approximation for that comparison
- [21:47:23] <Molly>
so why'd we even go down this visible/hidden route?
- [21:47:28] <Molly>
so pull all that out
- [21:47:33] <tantek>
you brought us there :)
- [21:47:39] <Molly>
yeah, well, again
- [21:47:40] <Molly>
if I did
- [21:47:48] <tantek>
we just answered questions
- [21:47:50] <Molly>
imagine what the less educated but interested hoardes
- [21:47:52] <Molly>
are asking
- [21:48:06] <tantek>
they don't even know vCard exists
- [21:48:10] <tantek>
so they are not even asking
- [21:48:22] <Molly>
well, someone's paying me to write this stuff
- [21:48:27] <Molly>
so someone cares. Or hey, maybe they don't
- [21:48:37] <Molly>
maybe I could write about /anything/ ?
- [21:48:43] <Molly>
and no one would notice? LOL
- [21:49:44] <tantek>
I thought that was called "blogging"...
- [21:49:53] <Molly>
except they notice
- [21:49:58] <tantek>
:)
- [21:50:16] <Molly>
maybe I should think about hiding myself rather than being so visible?
- [21:50:20] * Molly ducks
- [21:51:48] <gsnedders>
Molly: well, get a domain which isn't a popular first name :)
- [21:52:32] <Molly>
once the pornographers offer me enough money, I might just do that
- [21:52:39] <Molly>
but we've been having that conversation for 10 years
- [21:52:45] <Molly>
and it's not enough to retire on just yet
- [21:53:33] <gsnedders>
Molly: well, it would make you less visible, not having such a domain name
- [21:54:07] <Molly>
gsnedders: yes, that's true, but I've never shied away from visibility. It WAS an (apparently poor) attempt at levity
- [21:56:27] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [21:57:38] * daavid (n=daavid@wkac.ac.uk) Quit ()
- [22:02:59] <Molly>
okay so now more semantic niggling
- [22:03:14] <Molly>
if I'm moving the discussion away from visible/hidden
- [22:03:15] <tantek>
semantic niggling = sniggling?
- [22:03:17] <Molly>
to web/non-web formats
- [22:03:26] * Molly falls off chair
- [22:04:01] <Molly>
we can't say "RSS" is a non-web format
- [22:04:12] <Molly>
yet, it is a non-visible format in the context of our discussion here today, right?
- [22:04:53] * valmont (n=chrishol@dsl092-043-004.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
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- [22:15:22] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
- [22:16:23] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
- [22:22:24] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ("to bed with me!")
- [22:23:43] * Atamido (n=atamido@cpe-67-9-173-252.austin.res.rr.com) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.1/2006012608]")
- [22:27:05] <tantek>
molly, RSS is a leaf web format
- [22:29:02] <Molly>
what does that mean precisely?
- [22:30:02] * ichigo (n=ichigo@M981P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) has joined #microformats
- [22:30:15] * ichigo (n=ichigo@M981P005.adsl.highway.telekom.at) Quit (Client Quit)
- [22:30:36] <tantek>
it's on the edge of the Web
- [22:30:56] <tantek>
it doesn't really contribute to the web-like aspect of the Web
- [22:30:57] <ajturner>
the web has an edge?
- [22:31:05] <ajturner>
beware - dragons lyeth beyond!
- [22:31:05] <Molly>
is the web flat???
- [22:31:14] <Molly>
I really shouldn't come in here ;-)
- [22:31:16] <tantek>
ajturner, images for example are on the very edge
- [22:31:20] <tantek>
they don't link out
- [22:31:23] <tantek>
they are leaf nodes
- [22:31:26] <Molly>
ah
- [22:31:27] <Molly>
okay
- [22:31:30] <tantek>
RSS is mostly like that too
- [22:31:31] <ajturner>
I think I disagree about RSS though
- [22:31:39] <tantek>
but in a weird ephemeral way
- [22:31:44] <ajturner>
what if I consume RSS and put those links in another format? I've pulled that leaf back in
- [22:31:45] <Molly>
so "end of the web" type thing. You get to that document, whatever it is
- [22:31:52] <Molly>
and there's no where to go?
- [22:31:59] <tantek>
in the extreme yes
- [22:32:05] <tantek>
like images
- [22:32:09] <tantek>
in the case of RSS
- [22:32:15] <tantek>
the "edge" aspect of it is a bit more subtle
- [22:32:24] <ajturner>
extreme? I think that's becoming more the norm, like georss, del.icio.us feeds
- [22:32:26] <tantek>
because RSS entries *do* contain links
- [22:32:40] <ajturner>
I definitely see how images are the "Edge", last interface to the user
- [22:32:42] <tantek>
ajturner - those are total edge cases
- [22:32:50] <tantek>
(no pun intended ;) )
- [22:32:52] <Molly>
hahaha
- [22:33:11] <ajturner>
so you do mean the other edge there? (as in not many people are using them like that yet)
- [22:33:16] <tantek>
RSS "pages" only emphemerally link out to the rest of the web
- [22:33:38] <tantek>
ajturner, right
- [22:33:43] <tantek>
hence the no pun intended :)
- [22:33:47] <ajturner>
how is an RSS aggregated page different from an HTML page with lots of links?
- [22:34:02] <tantek>
common publishing usage of each is different
- [22:34:04] <ajturner>
one is machine created - the other maybe human created
- [22:34:14] <tantek>
either could be either of those
- [22:34:19] * tantek has seen hand created RSS
- [22:34:25] <ajturner>
eep
- [22:34:30] * pnhChris has hand created RSS
- [22:34:42] <ajturner>
of course, I haven't "hand created" a web page in several years either
- [22:34:52] * Molly thinks pnhChris is just that kind of guy anyway
- [22:35:00] <pnhChris>
thanks... i think :)
- [22:35:04] <Molly>
;-)
- [22:35:07] * tantek handcrafts HTML all the time :)
- [22:35:27] <pnhChris>
now i'm handcrafting hatom instead :P
- [22:36:46] <pnhChris>
but yeah.. before before i made the full conversion to "blog" on my own site i had a "latest news" blurb on the home page that i also had a feed for for a little while.. both edited by hand
- [22:37:52] <pnhChris>
not that that has anything to do with anything
- [22:38:17] <Molly>
sure it does
- [22:38:46] <tantek>
RSS is sort of a first derivative format for HTML
- [22:38:53] <Molly>
i mean, if I need someone to handcraft hatom, you're the first person I'll call ;-)
- [22:38:58] <tantek>
you don't see much RSS that links directly to RSS etc.
- [22:39:08] <tantek>
it's just a delivery mechanism for links to HTML
- [22:39:09] <Molly>
that's an interesting point
- [22:39:16] <tantek>
that's part of my point
- [22:39:23] <tantek>
about its "edgeness"
- [22:40:44] <Molly>
makes sense
- [22:41:20] <ajturner>
hrm, curiously, how "edgy" is an image that contains highlighted areas with links to other pages/images (ala Flickr) ;)
- [22:43:19] <Molly>
but that's not the image
- [22:43:24] * briansuda notes that <area> and image maps don't exist outside of the HTML
- [22:43:41] <Molly>
exactly. The mapping in image maps is HTML, not embedded into the image
- [22:43:50] <Molly>
now Flash
- [22:43:56] <pnhChris>
Flash is the edgiest!
- [22:44:09] <ajturner>
sure - but it's still marking up the image
- [22:44:10] <pnhChris>
(well.. not really.. it can link just as well as everything else)
- [22:44:16] <Molly>
but if the image isn't there
- [22:44:20] <Molly>
the href still is
- [22:44:22] <Molly>
that's the point, I think
- [22:44:34] <Molly>
(hey if I hang out in here will I get smart?)
- [22:44:43] <ajturner>
(hasn't worked for me ;) )
- [22:44:44] <pnhChris>
no
- [22:44:58] <ajturner>
audio is probably the edgiest
- [22:45:10] <ajturner>
at least video can *show* a link - audio could only say it
- [22:45:18] <Molly>
this was my point about Flash
- [22:45:34] <Molly>
you can embed a link into a SWF file
- [22:45:38] <Molly>
but it's still darned edgy
- [22:45:49] <pnhChris>
flash can consume the edgy rss and give you a link and make it less edgy
- [22:45:58] <ajturner>
but what's the point of something's edgy-ness?
- [22:46:16] * pnhChris thinks he should write Colbert and convince him to do a segment on "edginess"
- [22:46:17] <ajturner>
seems like the edgier it is the more appealing it is?
- [22:46:24] * Molly agrees with Chris
- [22:46:55] <Molly>
I think the real point is that the farther out toward the edge
- [22:47:05] <Molly>
the less resusable and "web-like" if you will
- [22:47:12] <Molly>
a given /thing/ is
- [22:47:23] * briansuda noddes
- [22:48:34] * pnhChris wonders how one might define the edginess of foaf
- [22:48:43] <Molly>
Hi Brian, speaking of which, your X2V is XSLT. What else are tools for hCard and hCalendar being built with? Greasemonkey? ???
- [22:48:59] <briansuda>
There is a Ruby parser
- [22:49:08] <briansuda>
Live Clipboard is in Javascript
- [22:49:14] <briansuda>
Greasemonkey is popular
- [22:49:33] <Molly>
awesome
- [22:49:35] <briansuda>
there are a few stand-alone Firefox plugins (Tails - no sure what that is written in?)
- [22:49:49] <briansuda>
those pages on the wiki have an implementations section
- [22:50:05] <briansuda>
i think there is a .NET, C#, drewinthehead has hKit that is PHP
- [22:50:05] <Molly>
yep, I've been muddling through 'em
- [22:50:52] <ajturner>
it's possible to turn any Greasemonkey script into a full plugin
- [22:51:00] <briansuda>
pnhChris, i don't think you can really do much with RDF unless it is through a proxy to convert it to HTML or have a machine read it - then you have to wonder if you are already OFF the web at that point?
- [22:53:17] <pnhChris>
but its totally linky
- [22:53:20] <pnhChris>
on the other side
- [22:53:46] <tantek>
briansuda, right
- [22:53:47] <pnhChris>
('nother new SAT word: linkiness)
- [22:53:52] <tantek>
it's almost worse than being on the "edge"
- [22:53:56] <tantek>
it's subterannean
- [22:54:00] <tantek>
you have to surface it
- [22:54:09] <briansuda>
RDF is machine readable-first, so it isn't in browser anymore
- [22:54:43] <Molly>
if it's subterannean
- [22:54:46] <Molly>
it MUST be hidden
- [22:54:50] * Molly ducks again
- [22:56:46] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit ()
- [22:57:20] <tantek>
molly, bingo!
- [22:57:22] <tantek>
you got it!
- [22:57:59] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [22:59:20] * Molly feels suddenly enlightened
- [23:01:33] <drewinthehead>
Molly - there is no spoon.
- [23:01:54] <drewinthehead>
g'night all.
- [23:02:00] <pnhChris>
night
- [23:02:10] <briansuda>
night
- [23:05:18] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [23:09:21] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable153.95-200-24.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [23:23:47] <Molly>
brian, where are you geo wise these days?
- [23:26:52] <tantek>
.whereis briansuda
- [23:26:58] <whereisbot>
[off] briansuda is probably in (Unknown city), US (guessed) [ x ] (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+(briansuda))
- [23:26:59] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) Quit ("Leaving...")
- [23:27:00] <briansuda>
with the Microformat or in meatspace?
- [23:27:45] <briansuda>
at the moment i am in STL, but i'm off to Europe end of the Month, i will be presenting at EuroOSCON, then off to do some traveling
- [23:28:09] <Molly>
i meant meatspace
- [23:29:16] <briansuda>
yeah, London (maybe for dConstruct) then Belgium for EuroOSCON, then probably back to Reykjavik for a but
- [23:29:29] <briansuda>
... for a bit.
- [23:29:45] <Molly>
Reykjavik was so interesting. I want to go back.
- [23:29:52] <Molly>
I don't feel I had enough time there
- [23:30:19] <briansuda>
any chance our paths will cross anytime soon?
- [23:30:21] <Molly>
i have Australia / Spain / UK in sept/oct anyone else here?
- [23:30:43] <Molly>
and then Vancouver in Feb, Hong Kong June and back to the UK later in June 2007
- [23:30:51] <Molly>
that's the major it'l so far
- [23:30:58] <Molly>
the rest is all domestic
- [23:31:02] <Molly>
US
- [23:31:09] <briansuda>
is there any minor international?
- [23:31:32] <Molly>
minor international for me is Nogales Mexico ;-)
- [23:31:37] <Molly>
I can drive there in 45 minutes :)
- [23:31:44] <Molly>
less on a good day
- [23:31:46] <briansuda>
i won free tickets to XTECH07, so i'll be in paris in may
- [23:32:13] <Molly>
that's nice!
- [23:32:53] <briansuda>
maybe i can get some microformats presentations for IceWeb07
- [23:32:55] <Molly>
as you know I do a lot of the standards / design / blog crowd stuff
- [23:33:27] <Molly>
hey, do you know who's org'ing that? I'd love to come back. Einar got some kind of big promotion after that
- [23:33:36] <Molly>
you know that IceWeb 2006 was his school project?
- [23:33:41] <Molly>
That just blows my mind.
- [23:33:45] <briansuda>
no, i didn't
- [23:33:55] <briansuda>
i can ask around, it isn't a big place!
- [23:34:11] <Molly>
I need to write back to him. Yes, he, in tandem with the bank he works for
- [23:34:17] <Molly>
and several of his mates
- [23:34:28] <Molly>
worked together to create the IceWeb conference as part of a school-related project
- [23:34:37] <ajturner>
briansuda - use iamhere
- [23:34:46] <Molly>
I definitely thought that was IMPRESSIVE
- [23:34:47] <ajturner>
whereisbot: help iamhere
- [23:34:49] <whereisbot>
'.iamhere <location> - Sets your current location'
- [23:34:56] <Molly>
and a big lesson for conference coordinators
- [23:35:09] <briansuda>
feel free to CC me too, i can certainly help him organize and/or get participants and/or speak as well
- [23:35:40] <briansuda>
.iamhere Saint Louis, MO
- [23:35:43] <whereisbot>
now I know you're in ST LOUIS, US [38.62648 x -90.198647]
- [23:36:43] <Molly>
My main concern Brian, and maybe you have some insight
- [23:37:02] <Molly>
is that standards are only beginning to be of interest in Iceland, must less progressive use of XHTML and microformats
- [23:37:12] <Molly>
this isn't to say the people there aren't really, really smart and open to a lot of ideas
- [23:37:48] <briansuda>
true, there is an exodus to other places like London. But that doesn't mean we can't introduce them.
- [23:37:52] <Molly>
but I don't have to tell you how unique and perhaps isolated a culture it can be
- [23:37:54] <Molly>
oh I agree
- [23:38:03] <Molly>
and not only that, but IceWeb was the invitation for us to do that
- [23:38:12] <Molly>
and we should continue. I was merely saying that as someone who has lived there
- [23:38:14] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [23:38:17] <Molly>
maybe you have insight into the way to do that
- [23:39:28] <briansuda>
they are very nationalistic/patriotic and because of their size they are very willing to make you feel welcome. The running joke is that they always ask foreigners "So, how do you like iceland"
- [23:39:53] <briansuda>
if there is a new idea, like XHTML, standards, i think it could move very fast throughout they community
- [23:40:22] <Molly>
i agree
- [23:40:23] <briansuda>
they are much smaller and everyone talks to each other, i can't image how competitive it is in such a small pool
- [23:40:26] <Molly>
the one block i found
- [23:40:28] <Molly>
was accessibility
- [23:40:59] <briansuda>
as in NOT accessiblly interested?
- [23:41:04] <Molly>
right
- [23:41:08] <Molly>
lots of pushback on that
- [23:42:03] <briansuda>
strange, with all their extra letters in the alphabeta, i bet they get crapped on all the time for UTF-8 support, i would have guessed that accessibility brings other things for free, like internationalization?
- [23:42:22] <Molly>
actually the i18n stuff they were into
- [23:42:27] <Molly>
I did the opening session
- [23:42:36] <Molly>
and that was a "roadmap to"
- [23:42:42] <Molly>
all the "web 2.0" stuff
- [23:42:50] <Molly>
and then a session on i18n
- [23:42:58] <briansuda>
ah, pretty similar to the @media presentation?
- [23:42:58] <Molly>
at their request, so the interest is definitely there for that
- [23:43:03] <Molly>
no
- [23:43:19] <Molly>
well, delivery far more precise / technical perhaps
- [23:43:28] <Molly>
@media is more inspirational etc.
- [23:43:47] <briansuda>
i listened to tha @media, there isn't a podcast for IceWeb, is there?
- [23:43:48] <Molly>
evangelical. whatever the right term is these days. I don't know. All I know is people made fun of me because I presented barefoot ;-)
- [23:43:52] <Molly>
nope
- [23:44:23] <briansuda>
it is pretty cold for barefoot! :)
- [23:44:42] <Molly>
maybe if you're sitting
- [23:44:47] <Molly>
but I can't stand still when I present
- [23:44:51] <Molly>
if I'm standing still or sitting
- [23:44:55] <Molly>
I'm probably not feeling well :)
- [23:45:07] <briansuda>
like a shark, constantly on the move!
- [23:45:39] <Molly>
not to mention I sometimes look around the room and go "is it hot in here or is it just me" and the majority of young male faces are blankly staring at me and I realize
- [23:45:41] <Molly>
um yeah
- [23:45:41] <briansuda>
well, if you do contact them, let me know, i will probably be around there in march so i can lend my services in a variety of ways - even if it is to help get them in touch with the right people they want to bring.
- [23:45:43] <Molly>
it's me ;-)
- [23:45:56] <Molly>
oh yeah, I'd love that Brian!
- [23:46:25] <briansuda>
it is a facinating place, and if you make it back certainly stay awhile and i can show you around the country-side
- [23:46:52] <Molly>
that would be great
- [23:46:57] <Molly>
i would love that
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