IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  16. [01:36:59] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <>
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  22. [02:08:59] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  40. [06:34:29] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at and Midgard CMS developer
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  45. [08:06:12] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at and Midgard CMS developer
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  50. [09:00:48] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of
  51. [09:56:32] <mfbot> [[hreview]] * Andrew * (+2) changed example to match decimal point used in ratings spec earlier
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  53. [10:02:38] <mfbot> [[hatom]] M * Andrew * (+0) typo fix
  54. [10:08:11] <drewinthehead> mornin'
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  71. [13:07:23] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on and helps with
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  73. [13:20:02] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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  75. [13:30:42] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <>
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  77. [14:27:11] <ajturner> qid: ping
  78. [14:34:45] <qid> hmm?
  79. [14:37:09] <drewinthehead> 'lo
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  81. [15:25:42] <ajturner> hey qid - just wondering if you had an update with your xoxo file? I want to try something out with it
  82. [15:32:35] <qid> I haven't changed it since yesterday, it's still in the same spot
  83. [15:32:59] <qid> just don't hammer it too much, adelphia cable upload is pathetic
  84. [16:09:23] <pnhChris> followup post on using a local hatom proxy w/ code...
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  87. [16:41:38] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at and Midgard CMS developer
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  89. [16:56:29] <ajturner> qid - what's the url?
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  94. [17:53:39] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at
  95. [18:02:59] <qid> ajturner:
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  98. [18:21:11] <ajturner> I'm curious as to the structure of the xoxo file
  99. [18:22:12] <ajturner> what I'm trying to do is create a parser that automatically reads in your file and then creates mf parsers
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  102. [18:29:44] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of and in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  103. [18:30:28] <qid> ajturner: that sounds like boiling several oceans at once
  104. [18:30:55] <ajturner> qid - that analogy blows my mind :)
  105. [18:31:07] <qid> I seem to recall conversations on the mailing list were people were actively discouraged against trying to develop a "universal" microformat parser
  106. [18:31:16] <ajturner> I just mean, your XOXO file seems to change formatting along the way
  107. [18:31:24] <qid> how so?
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  109. [18:31:37] <ajturner> really? well, I have one now that you just say "geo has latitude, longitude props" and then it's a parser
  110. [18:32:54] <qid> I imagine what you've actually created is a parser for a superset of the geo format
  111. [18:33:36] <ajturner> sorry - the xoxo file you have just splits b/w element and compound
  112. [18:33:59] <ajturner> um...
  113. [18:35:06] <ajturner> no, there is a general parser - built on scrAPI, that I've defined a generic MF parser and then subsets
  114. [18:36:38] <qid> the file I made does not come close to describing the entirety of the specs of any of those formats
  115. [18:37:33] <qid> so if you build a parser based on that file, if you're lucky it will parse those formats properly, and it will also parse stuff that isn't really valid
  116. [18:37:44] * bergie ( Quit ()
  117. [18:38:44] <qid> e.g. <span class="geo"><span class="latitude longitude">foo bar baz</span></span> is legal if you take the cheat sheet to be a spec
  118. [18:39:50] <qid> the cheat sheet is intended to be a human reference to jog your memory, not a parseable spec, and if you use it as such I can virtually guarantee it will bite you
  119. [18:42:00] <ajturner> hrm
  120. [18:42:02] <ajturner> thx
  121. [18:42:42] <ajturner> just thinking of a lightweight xoxo file that generalizes the attributes that are part of an mf. for example, an adr can have street-address, postal-code, etc.
  122. [18:43:19] <ajturner> here is what I've done:
  123. [18:43:55] <ajturner> I was thinking an XOXO file could provide the "properties" and "class" and generate these class definitions at runtime - but I think I understand what you're saying
  124. [18:49:11] <qid> yeah, here's another problem I noticed from reading your blog
  125. [18:49:39] <qid> <-- you say "The geo microformat looks like:" and give an example
  126. [18:49:59] <qid> but the geo uf doesn't have to look like that example, it could use abbr instead
  127. [18:50:20] <qid> in which case the data is not in the text inside the tag, it's in the title attribute
  128. [18:52:52] <ajturner> yeah, I mentioned that in the last post - which is a good point, that something could be in a attribute or text
  129. [18:53:10] <ajturner> how do current parsers handle that?
  130. [18:53:42] <ajturner> also, I'm curious how people who parse handle "titling" an adr or geo if it's not part of an hCard
  131. [18:58:27] * cori[s]_ (n=cori[s] Quit ("Death before decaf")
  132. [18:58:38] <qid> current parsers handle that by being more complicated
  133. [18:59:04] <ajturner> but what is the logic?
  134. [18:59:53] <briansuda> ajturner, i worked on a GEO parser, as for "titling" i am working on a variety of different schemes
  135. [19:00:00] <briansuda> if it is an abbr, then use the node-value
  136. [19:00:12] <briansuda> if it is a child of class="vcard" use the class="fn"
  137. [19:00:29] <briansuda> i am still working on what to grab if it is a child of class="vevent"
  138. [19:00:49] <briansuda> the other issue is that not all formats i convert too have a TITLE, DESCRIPTION element
  139. [19:01:15] <briansuda> it is still a working in progress, constant flux.
  140. [19:01:40] <ajturner> ok
  141. [19:03:06] <ajturner> briansuda - for an abbr, what do you mean by the node value?
  142. [19:03:36] <briansuda> <abbr title="12.34;56.78" class="geo">Title Here</abbr>
  143. [19:03:37] <qid> he was talking about for titling, use the contents of the abbr
  144. [19:03:45] <briansuda> i would grab "title here"
  145. [19:04:07] <ajturner> well, looking at the geo examples on the wiki - if it's an abbr, then the title is the decimal value of the lat or lon
  146. [19:04:37] <briansuda> right, that is the VALUE of the GEO portion of the KML or GEORSS, but for the TITLE portion, i grab the node-value
  147. [19:04:56] <briansuda> it is not offically part of any spec, because the GEO only defines the lat/lon
  148. [19:05:09] <briansuda> where TITLE DESCRIPTION comes from is up to the implementation
  149. [19:05:19] <briansuda> i could (and i think i do) grab the page title for the RSS title
  150. [19:05:37] <ajturner> shouldn't the suggested use be in the examples then? so you mean that you would hope/use <span class="geo" title="Tonight's party"><abbr ...
  151. [19:06:54] <briansuda> that is certainly a possiblity too? but i would probably take Node-value over @title, and span in this case has a node value, it would be the value of the abbr
  152. [19:08:04] <ajturner> so you would title the geo by "N 37° 24.491" and "W 122° 08.313" ?
  153. [19:08:51] <briansuda> do you have a link to the example you are talking about? then we can be on the same page.
  154. [19:09:18] <ajturner>
  155. [19:09:54] <ajturner> or the RFC2426 example
  156. [19:10:31] <briansuda> in the "Real world geo example" i probably would pull something like the following"
  157. [19:10:47] <briansuda> <point>37.408183 37.408183</point?
  158. [19:11:03] <briansuda> <title>N 37° 24.491 W 122° 08.313</title>
  159. [19:12:32] <ajturner> that's what I was afraid of :p though putting a suggestion of a title in the geo span would be nice
  160. [19:12:36] <ajturner> :)
  161. [19:12:48] <ajturner> like putting a clean title in an a-href
  162. [19:12:56] <briansuda> this is just an implementation-by-implementation call, TITLE, DESCIPTION, etc is all "value added" and is not directly part of the spec. If you think there is a better we can experiment with that
  163. [19:13:14] <briansuda> i'm not sure many people use @title on spans?
  164. [19:13:27] <ajturner> well, how many encode with geo? :)
  165. [19:13:28] <briansuda> or how often GEO exists without an hCard?
  166. [19:13:35] <briansuda> true
  167. [19:13:52] <ajturner> but if I'm putting, say, the geo in a blog post, that lat/lon corresponds to a specific place - so titling it seems very beneficial
  168. [19:14:11] <ajturner> or an adr that actually said "AMC movie theater"
  169. [19:14:17] <briansuda> you can get into a quagmire of all sorts of things, like wrapping an <img> with an <abbr class="geo"> to say where it was taken
  170. [19:14:31] <briansuda> then we can use @alt of the img
  171. [19:14:45] <briansuda> or if it is in an class="adr" pull that whole things?
  172. [19:14:58] <pnhChris> the question i guess that needs to be asked is when are either not really just adr or geo , but really something different like hcard
  173. [19:15:10] <ajturner> hrm, what about the relationship discussion? I have my geo(title="Location of Johnny jumping") that relates to the img with an id
  174. [19:15:11] <briansuda> it is not hard to do, there is just a massive switch statement and we'd need to hammer how presidence
  175. [19:15:26] <pnhChris> AMC movie theater + adr seems like a card to me and not just an adr
  176. [19:16:18] <ajturner> pnhChris - good point, though users may not do a whole hCard
  177. [19:16:31] <briansuda> yes, i pnhChris, i have been keeping track of all the cities i have visited (for various conferences, etc). Then i mark them up with ADR (and just have locality, region, country - no street-address) that is a good use of ADR without hCard
  178. [19:16:50] <ajturner> briansuda - one could argue that is an event ;)
  179. [19:16:55] <briansuda> and i add GEO inside that
  180. [19:17:01] <pnhChris> right
  181. [19:17:15] <ajturner> but that kind of discussion just seems circular, if we're being pragmatic about it, what will the average user actually do
  182. [19:17:19] <briansuda> well, i am not talking about events, just "places i have visited in 2006" no reason why i was there
  183. [19:17:31] <briansuda> kinda stuff
  184. [19:17:50] <pnhChris> which i don't have any issue with briansuda
  185. [19:17:58] <ajturner> ok, so... still using that example - and lets just say that it's not worth putting in a card or event
  186. [19:18:19] <ajturner> it still seems beneficial to suggest that you would put a title in the "geo" that describes what that geo or adr is
  187. [19:18:21] <pnhChris> its just when you're asking questions like "how can i add more information or description about a point on the globe"
  188. [19:18:29] <ajturner> or relate it to a href somewhere else in your post
  189. [19:18:35] <pnhChris> i wonder if you really don't want /just/ GEO
  190. [19:19:05] <pnhChris> or when geo + label becomes something more .. like hcard
  191. [19:21:21] <ajturner> see my comment above re:typical user
  192. [19:21:57] <ajturner> I was just looking for a way that a typical user could quickly add a title to a geo - saying they need a card is like saying an href needs a card and relationship
  193. [19:22:56] <pnhChris> my point was to caution against building too many rules around either adr or geo to make them more then just the baseic elemental form of a way to mark up just plain coords or just plain addresses
  194. [19:23:11] <trovster> I doubt very much that adding information which is useful for the user is the correct use of title here. I reckon tantek will agree that it's wrong to hide this information away
  195. [19:23:14] <briansuda> other microformats should not be manditory if they want a label, but because label is OPTIONAL each implementation is going to get that data from different sources in different ways
  196. [19:23:15] <pnhChris> if there's another case
  197. [19:23:19] <pnhChris> that is "typical"
  198. [19:23:27] <pnhChris> then i wouldn't look at it to expand geo
  199. [19:23:43] <pnhChris> but either say "ou should use X here" or look for other alternatives, or a new format
  200. [19:24:35] <ajturner> so if I want to add a title to a geo/adr, a user needs to use a whole card?
  201. [19:24:52] <pnhChris> that may be so
  202. [19:25:04] <pnhChris> or it may be that you need soemthing else
  203. [19:25:05] <ajturner> that seems heavy handed
  204. [19:25:18] <briansuda> no, they don't NEED a card, but implementations might not honor how they choose to implement a label
  205. [19:25:19] <ajturner> what else is there if I want to specify a lat/lon and name for that lat/lon?
  206. [19:25:41] <pnhChris> perhaps its something we need to create
  207. [19:26:12] <ajturner> dubious that YAF is needed
  208. [19:26:20] <pnhChris> though I'd first wonder what is the big hurdle in creating "a whole card"
  209. [19:26:31] <briansuda> there was a GEO BOF at where 2.0, those notes are somewhere on the wiki i think
  210. [19:26:47] <ajturner> 2.0 2005?
  211. [19:26:48] <briansuda> i'm sure alot of geo people were all together talking about this very topic
  212. [19:26:59] <pnhChris> is it that you're dealing with place vs. person or org/business?
  213. [19:27:28] <briansuda>
  214. [19:27:33] <ajturner> well, when you write a url , do you include a card? or do you usually just put a title like "Microformat Wiki: geo"
  215. [19:27:54] <pnhChris> but show me the geo case
  216. [19:27:55] <briansuda>
  217. [19:28:44] <ajturner> not really illuminating
  218. [19:29:22] <ajturner> <span class="geo" title="Geocache #34872"><abbr ...</span>
  219. [19:29:49] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit (Client Quit)
  220. [19:29:53] <ajturner> vs. just saying: Geocache #34872 can be found at <span class="geo">...</span>
  221. [19:30:17] <ajturner> or even: I went geocaching today near ...
  222. [19:31:05] <ajturner> or simpler - i have a plugin that attaches geo coords to a blog post from where I wrote it as pulled from my GPS receiver. I want the title to be associated with the blog post title
  223. [19:31:30] <ajturner> It's still just a "geo", but I want to name it
  224. [19:31:51] <ajturner> also, would be nice if any img I have in the post taken there could reference a relationship to that geo
  225. [19:31:55] * pnhChris puts on tantek hat and suggests hatom + tag
  226. [19:32:19] <pnhChris> or something similar
  227. [19:32:20] <pnhChris> but
  228. [19:32:44] <briansuda> i see ajturner's point about a LABEL, but that is sort of an issue above GEO
  229. [19:33:00] <ajturner> isn't that just in the Atom feed though?
  230. [19:33:10] <pnhChris> i still don't see you trying to better define the point.. but using the point to better define or tag something else
  231. [19:33:45] <ajturner> so do I create an card for the blog entry - or for the geocache?
  232. [19:34:06] <ajturner> many of the other MF have a way to have a title/label
  233. [19:34:15] <ajturner> though the "relationship" is a diff't issue
  234. [19:35:51] <briansuda> well, there are various ways to get a title/label
  235. [19:35:55] <pnhChris> in the <span class="geo" title="Geocache #34872"><abbr case i'm still not sure how you'd resolve the usage with contents of the abbrs...
  236. [19:36:17] <briansuda> each implementation of GEO will be different because LABEL is not in the GEO spec.
  237. [19:36:38] <pnhChris> in all other cases, where the name of the location is visible content or you're trying to hook up the relationship i'd personally think that you need something that has geo as an element (such as hcard)
  238. [19:36:46] <briansuda> as you suggested earlier, GEO could use the @title, or FN from hCard, or SUMMARY from hCal, or entry-title from hAtom
  239. [19:36:47] <ajturner> briansuda - kind of my question, is there something about the spec I'm missing for geo-label, or should it be added?
  240. [19:37:45] <briansuda> well, part of the reason GEO is the way it is, is because it was abstracted from vCard, which doesn't have a LABEL
  241. [19:38:12] * pnhChris wouldn't be opposed to expanding hcard naming rules to allow places that are explicitly not people or businessness, but wouldn't be to forceful on it
  242. [19:38:15] <briansuda> if you can find enough "real world examples" etc, it could find it's way in
  243. [19:38:40] <briansuda> class="fn" gets reused ALOT, so something like this would be acceptable: (w/o hcard)
  244. [19:39:23] <briansuda> <div class="geo">i found my <span class="fn">geo cache 1234</span> at <lat/lon here></div>
  245. [19:39:30] <pnhChris> briansuda: so a hLocation? or expanding the definiiton of geo and making sure you resolve it with formats where geo is included?
  246. [19:40:52] <briansuda> all of this should be run by the mailing-list, but it could be useful to add an optional new element as a child of "geo" called "fn" so geo could have 3 children "fn, latitude, longitude" (of course, you can use FN when GEO is a child of an hCard)
  247. [19:41:04] <briansuda> i don't think a new format would be needed
  248. [19:41:29] <pnhChris> whats the meaning of fn on geo when geo is a child of hcard?
  249. [19:41:33] <briansuda> and this won't work when you are using the ABBR element
  250. [19:41:45] <briansuda> "formatted name"
  251. [19:42:25] <pnhChris> is it just discareded? is there a formatted name for the card and a second one explicitly for the geo point?
  252. [19:42:33] <pnhChris> discarded*
  253. [19:42:49] <pnhChris> (similarly with adr)
  254. [19:44:21] <pnhChris> (i'm not trying to shoot down the idea.. in some cases i think it might work.. e.g. the name of a building as part of the adr.. just not sure its workable.. how consumers would dea)
  255. [19:44:25] <pnhChris> deal*
  256. [19:44:54] <briansuda> this would only be used when there is NO hCard, if GEO is a child of hCard, my extraction "looks up the tree" to see if it is a child, and if it is, then uses the FN from hCard
  257. [19:45:44] <briansuda> the tricky thing is that you would have to show that you NEED a label format where you CAN'T use an hCard in that same situation.
  258. [19:46:51] <briansuda> i think it can probably be solved without a label property, we;d just need to create (implementation by implementation) a list of all the places "to look for" a label
  259. [19:47:21] <briansuda> if it is a child of hCard grab the FN, if it is a child of hCal, use SUMMARY, if it is a child of hAtom, entry-name, etc.
  260. [19:48:16] <briansuda> if there are situations that the list CAN'T handle, and we can show that people are publishing that data, then we can look to possibly add some sort of LABEL to GEO.
  261. [19:48:55] <briansuda> i'm not as involved in the GEO community as others, so maybe there IS a legitimate need which needs to be brought to our attention
  262. [19:49:12] <pnhChris> sounds messy.. but i've stated my concerns... so i'll get out of the way
  263. [19:49:31] <briansuda> :)
  264. [19:50:16] <briansuda> sometimes it is just a good idea to get everything out on the table, good and bad, so we know why the bad ideas were rejected
  265. [19:50:45] <pnhChris> i guess i see it form two sides
  266. [19:50:55] <pnhChris> a parser who wants to label a point
  267. [19:51:09] <pnhChris> or consuming app that does after parsing
  268. [19:51:17] <pnhChris> and an author who really isn't talking about a point
  269. [19:51:22] <pnhChris> but more then that
  270. [19:51:25] <pnhChris> or an adr
  271. [19:53:33] <pnhChris> i don't think HTML semantics allow for one to say flatly that if geo is used in some content it will relate to its parent or great grandparent element to grab their title... but if a parser wants to do that it can weigh that concern
  272. [19:54:16] <briansuda> right, partly because GEO doesn't map to ONE spec, so LABELs are not global like lat/lon
  273. [19:54:25] <pnhChris> but if you're an author trying to really descript where you were when you took a picture, posted a blog post, or defining a geocache point, then, "typical user" aside you're really not defining a set of geo coords but soemthign else
  274. [19:55:10] <briansuda> true and that is where (hopefully) one of the many other MFs will help, or as ajturner was suggesting use the @title attribute or something else.
  275. [19:55:16] <pnhChris> and i can't seem to type this afternoon :P
  276. [19:55:36] <briansuda> some of that "extra" value added stuff is up to each implementation to extract
  277. [19:56:18] <briansuda> some implementations will do better than others and we are back to a competitive market which will also drive support for a better GEO format.
  278. [19:58:30] * pnhChris doesn't know enough about geo + coords usage to know what consuming apps might use raw coords / geo data for anyway
  279. [19:59:14] <bewest> maps
  280. [19:59:34] <pnhChris> of?
  281. [19:59:35] <bewest> google maps has made it insanely easy to build mapping applications
  282. [19:59:39] <bewest> of stuff
  283. [19:59:43] <pnhChris> bingo
  284. [19:59:49] <pnhChris> "stuff is here"
  285. [19:59:53] <pnhChris> not "point is here"
  286. [20:00:18] <pnhChris> which is where my hangup is in this topic
  287. [20:00:24] <bewest> meh... it's usually implicitly understood that a point on a map is not really a point
  288. [20:00:31] <pnhChris> "here's where are members are"
  289. [20:00:46] <bewest> but represents some threshold within a radius around that point, respective to the kind of thing being represented
  290. [20:00:59] <bewest> people publish points all the time to represent large things...
  291. [20:01:02] <bewest> even moving things
  292. [20:01:03] <bewest> hurricanes
  293. [20:01:05] <bewest> buildings
  294. [20:01:06] <bewest> people
  295. [20:01:12] <pnhChris> "here's a view of where i was for each of my blog posts on my site" (or each of my photos in flickr
  296. [20:01:34] <pnhChris> right
  297. [20:01:40] <bewest> but even then it doesn't represent a point
  298. [20:01:44] <bewest> it represents an area
  299. [20:01:59] <pnhChris> i just don't have a clear example in my mind of how one would consume "geo" and not soemthing else
  300. [20:02:12] * gsnedders ( has joined #microformats
  301. [20:02:13] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at
  302. [20:03:07] <pnhChris> "here's all the points i ever mentioned on my blog" seems like a stretch to me
  303. [20:03:10] <tantek> good morning
  304. [20:08:14] <pnhChris> something like a list of coords in an orienteering event or some directions along a hiking trail i can see useful.. but I don't know how you'd present that with markup and explicit labels instead of just points.. or again.. some other format for decsribing the whole course or trail
  305. [20:08:24] * pnhChris steps aside, again
  306. [20:08:25] <pnhChris> :P
  307. [20:08:49] <pnhChris> not very good at that, am i? hehe
  308. [20:09:43] <pnhChris> and good.. er.. morning tantek
  309. [20:10:11] * pnhChris wonders what tantek's current geo is that he thinks its morning
  310. [20:11:27] <drewinthehead> it's sunday, pnhChris, so any daylight hour is an acceptable value for 'morning' :)
  311. [20:20:08] * Molly ( has joined #microformats
  312. [20:20:18] <Molly> hello all
  313. [20:20:24] <briansuda> hello
  314. [20:20:29] <Molly> Hey Brian!
  315. [20:20:46] <Molly> how goes it? Glad you're here. I have a couple of questions / clarifications and could use your insight
  316. [20:20:58] <drewinthehead> hey molly
  317. [20:21:01] <Molly> hey drew :)
  318. [20:21:05] <Molly> how goes?
  319. [20:21:08] <tantek> pnhchris, morning is dependent on geo, it is dependent on sleep cycle ;)
  320. [20:21:16] <Molly> hey tantek
  321. [20:21:16] <tantek> morning is not dependent on geo that is :)
  322. [20:21:22] <briansuda> not a problem, we've just been discussing Geo-Coordinates!
  323. [20:21:31] * pnhChris pours some coffee for everyone
  324. [20:21:38] * tantek read the whole geo discussion AKA "named locations" (without calling it that, ironically)
  325. [20:21:42] * Molly wonders if she could have a tea
  326. [20:21:48] <Molly> with ice please
  327. [20:22:00] * tantek saw the sunrise this morning :)
  328. [20:22:05] <Molly> so here's my question, just trying to sort some things out
  329. [20:22:22] <Molly> Tantek, don't you often see the sunrise?
  330. [20:22:39] <Molly> (that wasn't hte question ;-))
  331. [20:22:46] <tantek> not often, no
  332. [20:23:18] <Molly> so, okay, clarifying open and closed data formats, and trying to sort out where vCard and iCalendar for example fit in.
  333. [20:23:48] <Molly> is the Microformat alternative based on the idea that there are some restrictions for vCard, let's say
  334. [20:23:55] <Molly> (because developers have to agree to support it)
  335. [20:24:08] <Molly> or because it's simply a "let's not reinvent the wheel" idea?
  336. [20:24:10] <Molly> or both?
  337. [20:25:42] <briansuda> Lets not reinvent the wheel is a big reason, if there are millions of desktop apps that can already import vCards, then we should certainly look to export and model that, so we can leverage the existing apps
  338. [20:25:45] <tantek> there are some restrictions for vCard? huh?
  339. [20:25:57] <tantek> because developers have to agree to support it? huh?
  340. [20:26:03] <Molly> i'm not saying there are
  341. [20:26:14] <tantek> leading question again?
  342. [20:26:15] <ajturner> .whereis tantek
  343. [20:26:29] <whereisbot> [off] tantek is probably in San Francisco, CA, US (guessed) [37.8133 x -122.505] (,-122.505+(tantek))
  344. [20:26:39] <Molly> i'm just trying to figure out the primary reason microformat alternatives exist where there are standards like iCalendar and vCard
  345. [20:26:46] <tantek> molly, that's easy
  346. [20:26:51] <Molly> good!
  347. [20:26:52] <tantek> those standards don't work for web content
  348. [20:26:52] <Molly> :)
  349. [20:26:54] <tantek> next question
  350. [20:26:56] <tantek> :)
  351. [20:27:00] <Molly> okay, specifically why
  352. [20:27:04] <Molly> that's what I'm trying to get to.
  353. [20:27:05] <trovster> Hey, tantek is in the sea!
  354. [20:27:10] <Molly> software, etc?
  355. [20:27:16] <Molly> in other words, my app has to support it
  356. [20:27:21] <tantek> molly, try putting some icalendar or vcard in your HTML
  357. [20:27:27] <briansuda> out-of-site-out of mind, hidden data gets stall quickly
  358. [20:27:31] <tantek> and come back with how (not) well it works ;)
  359. [20:27:36] <Molly> okay, so explain to me as if I were a child
  360. [20:27:39] <Molly> which some say I am :)
  361. [20:27:48] <Molly> why hcard is not hidden
  362. [20:27:52] <Molly> and vcard is
  363. [20:28:07] <tantek> is your about page hidden molly?
  364. [20:28:23] <tantek> to put it simply:
  365. [20:28:37] <tantek> web authors/publishers publish their contact info in HTML
  366. [20:28:41] <briansuda> Molly, i had a FoaF file, it can't really be viewed through a web browser, so i never looked at it, XFN i see every day, when i looked at the FoaF it was horribly out of date, XFN rarely is
  367. [20:28:46] <tantek> far more often then they do in vCard
  368. [20:28:57] <tantek> ...they publish their events far more often in HTML
  369. [20:29:01] <tantek> than they do in iCalendar
  370. [20:29:08] <tantek> it is a simple matter of "follow the content"
  371. [20:29:18] <Molly> okay, so what specifically makes something "hidden"
  372. [20:29:24] <tantek> microformats are designed to work the way content authors/publishers are used to working
  373. [20:29:27] <tantek> period
  374. [20:29:29] <Molly> just harder to access because it's not in the common format for the Web?
  375. [20:29:30] <briansuda> vCards are similar, they can't be viewed through the browser window. Therefore, they are more likely to get stale.... (and everything Tantek said too)
  376. [20:29:38] <tantek> molly, can you see it when you visit a web page?
  377. [20:29:41] <tantek> if yes, then it is visible
  378. [20:29:45] <tantek> if no, then it is hidden
  379. [20:29:57] <briansuda> they [FoaF, vCard, iCal] are not in HTML
  380. [20:30:16] <Molly> i'm still wanting a really tight definition for "hidden"
  381. [20:30:19] * tantek is amazed at how many broken-record attempts there are to stick data in hidden places.
  382. [20:30:28] <tantek> molly, why?
  383. [20:30:37] <tantek> can you see it when you browse the web page or not?
  384. [20:30:38] <Molly> so I can explain it to people who don't understand it
  385. [20:30:41] <tantek> why is that insufficient?
  386. [20:30:53] <tantek> people understand when they can see something or when they can't
  387. [20:31:02] <Molly> Because my thought is well, I can see the link to a vCard just as easily as I can see a link to an hCard
  388. [20:31:19] <tantek> link != content
  389. [20:31:29] <tantek> whose talking about links?
  390. [20:31:33] <Molly> So the content must equally be there
  391. [20:31:33] <tantek> we're talking about *content*
  392. [20:32:04] <briansuda> To answer one of your earlier Questions: Your local desktop application DOES have to support vCard and/or iCal, but those are SO ubiquitous that it is difficult NOT to find an app that does
  393. [20:32:06] <Molly> okay, that's clearer.
  394. [20:32:10] <Molly> That's MUST clearer
  395. [20:32:13] <Molly> er MUCH
  396. [20:32:22] <Molly> to say "not hidden means it's in the content"
  397. [20:32:51] <Molly> so hidden versus not hidden is or isn't an issue of open data?
  398. [20:32:58] <Molly> or is hidden versus not hidden data
  399. [20:33:01] <Molly> and open versus closed data
  400. [20:33:02] <tantek> molly, your distinction between content and links wouldn't make any sense to a "normal" person anyway
  401. [20:33:09] <tantek> so i'm not sure why you brought that up
  402. [20:33:10] <Molly> two separate conversations?
  403. [20:33:21] <Molly> cuz I'm not normal?
  404. [20:33:29] <Molly> I'm just trying to patch some holes here
  405. [20:33:35] <tantek> but you said you were trying to explain it for normal people
  406. [20:33:45] <tantek> then you made a distinction that normal people wouldn't understand
  407. [20:33:53] <Molly> don't confuse me. Seriously.
  408. [20:34:05] <tantek> so i don't understand what you're trying to do, or perhaps how the questions you are asking relate to what you're trying to do
  409. [20:34:12] <Molly> You have to remember you guys understand this stuff far better than most, and I'm trying to get more clear to help you and others
  410. [20:34:16] <Molly> I"m just the middle person here
  411. [20:34:16] <briansuda> By Open, i am assuming you mean, open to see the format and can replicate it?
  412. [20:34:32] <tantek> open/closed hidden/visible are different yes
  413. [20:34:35] <Molly> open: accessible, free from royalties
  414. [20:34:42] <briansuda> By Closed you mean something like a proprietary format which no one legally knows what's going on inside?
  415. [20:34:55] <tantek> molly, brian you just confused formats vs. content
  416. [20:34:59] <Molly> closed: proprietary, royalty or licence based
  417. [20:35:10] <Molly> licence/license
  418. [20:35:11] <tantek> molly, not that black & white
  419. [20:35:16] <Molly> well help me
  420. [20:35:17] <tantek> there are more and less open formats
  421. [20:35:19] <Molly> that's why it's not clear
  422. [20:35:28] <tantek> that's a whole nother discussion
  423. [20:35:36] <tantek> mostly orthogonal from microformats
  424. [20:35:39] <tantek> and not really that interesting
  425. [20:37:13] <briansuda> So Molly, what is the question(s) you are seeking an answer too?
  426. [20:37:17] <tantek> microformats, w3c, ietf etc. are all on the pretty extremely open side of open standards, so those of us involved in them don't worry about it too much, and the things we do worry about have very little to do with the full spectrum closed vs. open debate
  427. [20:38:09] <Molly> brian, i guess i don't know.
  428. [20:39:43] <Molly> how come every time i come in here i end up more confused than less?
  429. [20:39:50] <briansuda> :)
  430. [20:39:57] <Molly> it's not funny, really.
  431. [20:40:34] <briansuda> you gave us 3 questions to answer and we all went out of turn, alot came at you at once.
  432. [20:41:01] <briansuda> 1 Question at a time and we can help clarrify it for you
  433. [20:41:25] <tantek> that's a good point brian
  434. [20:41:36] <Molly> that's a circular argument. If I don't know what to ask for
  435. [20:41:43] <Molly> i just have to do my best
  436. [20:41:49] <Molly> look
  437. [20:41:52] <Molly> let me make one point guys
  438. [20:41:57] <Molly> if I have these kind of questions
  439. [20:42:09] <Molly> and I'm not your average garden variety uneducated web developer here
  440. [20:42:23] <Molly> then you tell me if you think it's just me, or lots of people.
  441. [20:42:24] <Molly> honestly.
  442. [20:43:30] * pnhChris hits the rewind button
  443. [20:43:34] <drewinthehead> it's not just you
  444. [20:45:06] <drewinthehead> one of the big advantages of having hCard in your page rather than just a link to a vCard is that it means you're just publishing/maintaining the data ONCE, and you're putting that to the best use you can.
  445. [20:45:52] <Molly> i understand.
  446. [20:46:02] <drewinthehead> as soon as you have to publish in two formats (on the page as plain old HTML and in a vCard) you're creating lots of work, and the risk is that the one no-one sees the data for (the vCard - it's just a link) goes out of date
  447. [20:46:24] <drewinthehead> so if you're publishing the plain old HTML anyway, let's make it useful.
  448. [20:46:31] <Molly> Thanks Drew. That's helpful and I do understand the concept.
  449. [20:46:36] <Molly> where I'm getting caught is nomenclature
  450. [20:46:40] <Molly> hidden versus not hidden
  451. [20:46:43] <Molly> open versus closed
  452. [20:46:55] <Molly> and I'm sure this is in part why others have trouble too.
  453. [20:46:58] <Molly> the concept is easy
  454. [20:47:04] <Molly> it's the language that's confusing
  455. [20:47:54] <briansuda> ok, open/closed is a separate issue, that is not a technical one, more of a social (some one can correct me)
  456. [20:48:23] <briansuda> hidden/visible is bringing more data IN FRONT of the user, via HTML
  457. [20:48:51] <pnhChris> hidden vs. visible is just that the information *is* content and should be marked up as such.. as text that is visible when visiting the page in a standard browser.. so you can see things like addresses just by visiting the page / without any need to extract the information from inside xml islands or comments or other devices
  458. [20:49:05] <Molly> I understand it now, guys
  459. [20:49:06] <briansuda> non-HTML files, RSS, vCards, iCals are all files that get DOWNLOADED not viewed.
  460. [20:49:07] <Molly> really, I do :)
  461. [20:49:22] <drewinthehead> META tags = invisible :)
  462. [20:50:43] <drewinthehead> that's a nice parallel that can aid understanding ... look how many sites have out-of-date keywords hidden in the HEAD
  463. [20:51:55] <Molly> this is all very helpful, thank you.
  464. [20:52:21] <Molly> far more helpful to have actual examples than talk the ideology. It's just that, however, that I worry about
  465. [20:52:47] <drewinthehead> it's the humans first thing that i think is most confusing :)
  466. [20:52:59] <Molly> because I don't want to spread innacurate ideas, so that's why I clarify my questions first.
  467. [20:53:20] <Molly> it's nomenclature, too. That's the biggest stumbling block. If I call hidden closed
  468. [20:53:27] <Molly> then I'm inaccurate and confusing
  469. [20:53:54] <Molly> that's all, that's what I was looking for. The clarification of the relationship between open/closed data and hidden/visible data
  470. [20:54:18] <drewinthehead> so you're cool on the open/closed bit?
  471. [20:54:53] <Molly> I have always understood that. And I understand hidden/visible. But not the relationship, per se.
  472. [20:54:58] <Molly> Here, let me give an example
  473. [20:55:13] <qid> open/closed are somewhat more ambiguous terms than hidden/visible, you could probably use a compound term like "legally open"/"legally closed" to be clearer
  474. [20:55:18] <Molly> Designer A reads about open data formats, he or she thinks okay, makes sense
  475. [20:55:44] <Molly> Designer A then reads about microformats and let's say vCard
  476. [20:55:56] <Molly> and thinks "okay, why do I use one over the other"
  477. [20:56:06] <Molly> it's not clear to Designer A who hasn't made the distinction yet
  478. [20:56:10] <Molly> between what is hidden/visible
  479. [20:56:24] <drewinthehead> right
  480. [20:56:26] <Molly> what the relationship is. To them, vCard is supported, so what's the problem? Okay, WE know what the problem is
  481. [20:56:45] <Molly> but it's not a clear metaphor. It's like the term "relative positioning"
  482. [20:57:03] <Molly> it's caused more problems in educating designers than I can count
  483. [20:57:21] <Molly> relative to what? open to what? Hidden from what? What I recommend for everyone, including myself
  484. [20:57:27] <Molly> is we clarify these things to audiences up front
  485. [20:57:59] <Molly> qid: good idea thx
  486. [20:58:21] <drewinthehead> it's content vs format, isn't it
  487. [20:58:29] <drewinthehead> visible or hidden content
  488. [20:58:34] <drewinthehead> open or closed format
  489. [20:59:17] <drewinthehead> and then you have open or closed content, which is usually a licensing / copyright thing
  490. [20:59:43] <Molly> this is good
  491. [20:59:51] <Molly> tantek, you started to say something about that earlier
  492. [20:59:54] <Molly> content v. format
  493. [21:00:04] <Molly> that's interesting to me.
  494. [21:00:09] <Molly> what's the difference?
  495. [21:00:50] <drewinthehead> content is the data - the name and contact information in this case
  496. [21:01:03] <drewinthehead> format is the technical way in which that content is held
  497. [21:02:04] <pnhChris> .JPG vs. "a picture of my dog"
  498. [21:02:16] <Molly> haha
  499. [21:02:17] <qid> a good synonym for format would be language
  500. [21:03:49] <Molly> would this be a correct paragraph?
  501. [21:03:54] <Molly> "Formats such as vCard and iCal can provide customers powerful options, but limit Web professionals who seek easier access, updates, styling and management of personal data via the Web. Microformats, which embrace a core philosophy of extending existing markup to solve specific problems, are helping developers and designers solve these limitations today."
  502. [21:05:42] <drewinthehead> i see nothing incorrect
  503. [21:06:51] <Molly> thanks Drew. I'll go work on this article. If I get done with it soon I'll come back and anyone who is interested or able I'd be grateful if you would take a quick look at it then. Sorry to interrupt your GEO conversation
  504. [21:06:52] <Molly> :)
  505. [21:07:02] <qid> sounds fine, although I'm not sure what the word "access" means there
  506. [21:07:02] <Molly> my coordinates: Too far south, too damned hot.
  507. [21:07:10] <ajturner> .whereis MOlly
  508. [21:07:13] <whereisbot> [off] MOlly is probably in Tucson, AZ, US [32.1958 x -110.892] (,-110.892+(MOlly))
  509. [21:07:19] <ajturner> apparently ;)
  510. [21:07:21] <Molly> :)
  511. [21:07:59] <Molly> access to the code, I can tighten that by dropping it, good point qid thanks
  512. [21:08:22] <tantek> molly, "limit Web professionals" is correct but perhaps a bit misleading
  513. [21:08:23] <drewinthehead> i like that the satellite version of that map is mostly brown ;)
  514. [21:08:35] <tantek> it's like saying that having to do more work is limiting
  515. [21:08:48] <Molly> ah, how about...
  516. [21:08:52] <tantek> shall we do a quick vCard vs. hCard?
  517. [21:08:56] <Molly> prevent?
  518. [21:08:57] <Molly> no, I have that
  519. [21:08:59] <tantek> vCard - separate file
  520. [21:09:01] <Molly> I don't need any of that
  521. [21:09:10] <tantek> hCard - content already in your web page
  522. [21:09:26] <tantek> vCard - requires a new URL to serve it
  523. [21:09:36] <tantek> hCard - is just part of a current URL on your website
  524. [21:09:38] <drewinthehead> 'burden' fits from my perspective ;)
  525. [21:09:52] <qid> +1 to drew's suggestion
  526. [21:09:59] <tantek> vCard - requires dealing with another MIME/Content type
  527. [21:10:15] <tantek> hCard - is just part of your HTML
  528. [21:11:18] <tantek> vCard - requires learning a new text format where colons and semicolons and commas have special meaning
  529. [21:11:30] <tantek> hCard - requires learning a few HTML class names
  530. [21:11:33] <qid> vCard - old and busted; hCard - new hotness
  531. [21:11:49] * daavid ( has joined #microformats
  532. [21:12:26] <drewinthehead> the problem currently is that people aren't even really publishing vCards and iCal as alternatives to web content, because it's so much effort .. so the data often doesn't exist in any structured format
  533. [21:12:36] <tantek> right
  534. [21:13:15] <drewinthehead> so the data's dying
  535. [21:15:39] <drewinthehead> poor data.
  536. [21:16:05] <Molly> useless
  537. [21:16:33] <Molly> empty shells of nothingness scattered on the highway of forgotten meaning.
  538. [21:16:51] <briansuda> information superhighway roadkill
  539. [21:16:58] <Molly> rofl
  540. [21:18:34] <drewinthehead> actually, that's not quite right, as it's still useful for humans, and we're all about the people.
  541. [21:19:06] <drewinthehead> just of limited use beyond its initial publishing
  542. [21:19:43] <Molly> we were trying for leverage, I think, armadillo head :P
  543. [21:20:20] <drewinthehead> you leave hArmadillo out of this ;)
  544. [21:20:44] <Molly> oh damn, there's an hArmadillo microformat now? I shoulda known
  545. [21:21:02] <Molly> okay, here's one
  546. [21:21:38] <Molly> so if RSS, vCards, iCals are all examples of "hidden"
  547. [21:21:50] <Molly> oh, and meta keywords, that's a good one for this audience
  548. [21:21:57] * gsnedders can't remember what an armadillo is (well, a bird, but no more), yet alone what the microformat based on it is
  549. [21:22:04] <Molly> anything, absolutely anything that is visible on the page
  550. [21:22:09] <Molly> is considered visible data?
  551. [21:22:13] <Molly> is that true?
  552. [21:22:27] * Molly points out that an armadillo is not a bird
  553. [21:22:50] * gsnedders points out that he's mad, as he told Molly a couple of days ago
  554. [21:23:05] <Molly> :)
  555. [21:23:15] * gsnedders wikipedia's armadillo
  556. [21:23:29] <gsnedders> *wikipedias, surely
  557. [21:24:08] * gsnedders goes back to lurking in the dark and shady depths of #microformats
  558. [21:24:34] * Molly thinks about armadillo roadkill
  559. [21:24:48] * Molly thinks she just came up with the name for a band! HA! Armadillo Roadkill
  560. [21:25:26] * gsnedders laughs, just loud enough to be heard at the surface of this channel
  561. [21:25:33] <Molly> (sorry drew lol)
  562. [21:26:09] <drewinthehead> Molly - right, that's literally what visible means in this context
  563. [21:27:38] <gsnedders> so anything that's in the actual HTML is visible?
  564. [21:27:53] <Molly> actually not if it's not displayed on the page
  565. [21:27:58] <Molly> a meta keyword is in the HTML
  566. [21:28:00] <Molly> and is not visible
  567. [21:28:05] <Molly> right?
  568. [21:28:13] <drewinthehead> right
  569. [21:28:20] <Molly> so specifically, it's in the body portion of the document as content
  570. [21:28:32] * daavid ( Quit ()
  571. [21:28:42] <drewinthehead> and not squirrel away in a tag or comment
  572. [21:28:42] <Molly> again, the primary word i'm seeing emerge here is visible = displayed content
  573. [21:29:07] <Molly> what about an element that has its visibility set to hidden or display to none?
  574. [21:29:28] <drewinthehead> grey area, in my mind :)
  575. [21:29:41] * daavid ( has joined #microformats
  576. [21:29:46] <Molly> really?
  577. [21:29:48] <drewinthehead> i know a few people are doing that - having, say, an hCard on every page and hiding it with CSS
  578. [21:30:08] <drewinthehead> personally, i'd try not to do that
  579. [21:30:17] <Molly> seems like a form of personal information spam
  580. [21:30:28] <Molly> in the context of discussion
  581. [21:30:31] <Molly> it defeats the entire purpose
  582. [21:30:45] <drewinthehead> it defeats a good amount of the purpose
  583. [21:30:46] <gsnedders> it'd be visible in UAs that don't support CSS, therefore it'd be perfectly possible for it to be visible to a microformats parser
  584. [21:31:07] <drewinthehead> hence the grey
  585. [21:31:15] <drewinthehead> i'd be interested in tantek's thoughts on this
  586. [21:31:19] <Molly> yeah, me too :)
  587. [21:31:56] <Molly> Tantek? Is content that is hidden via CSS to a given user agent considered visible or hidden data?
  588. [21:32:05] <Molly> It's visible to some UAs, and without the style there, it's visible
  589. [21:32:09] <Molly> that's definitely interesting
  590. [21:32:38] <tantek> yeah, that's the difference with using CSS for the "visibility"
  591. [21:32:54] <tantek> in the end it is up to the browser/user to determine the visibility of such content
  592. [21:32:58] <tantek> as opposed to the provider
  593. [21:33:07] <tantek> which is a subtle but important difference
  594. [21:33:34] <Molly> okay, fair enough. But is the content visible or hidden?
  595. [21:33:45] <gsnedders> if it's in a UA that doesn't visibly render the page, should it display the microformat?
  596. [21:33:45] <Molly> If I can't see it because I have CSS enabled as normal, just browsing around
  597. [21:33:50] <Molly> and someone's done what drew's described
  598. [21:34:05] <Molly> (boy this is a "if a tree falls in a forest" question isn't it)
  599. [21:34:28] <gsnedders> Molly: (it does make a sound :))
  600. [21:34:43] <Molly> according to that logic, then gsnedders
  601. [21:34:48] <Molly> if I can't see it, it's not visible.
  602. [21:34:53] <tantek> molly, what about SIFR techniques?
  603. [21:35:02] <tantek> does using negative text-indent make a heading invisible?
  604. [21:35:19] <gsnedders> but if it's replaced it's visible
  605. [21:35:27] <tantek> if the resource is missing?
  606. [21:35:39] <Molly> not if style is there no
  607. [21:35:41] <Molly> not visible.
  608. [21:35:59] <gsnedders> but doesn't SIFR check if Flash is enabled?
  609. [21:36:09] <Molly> I think Tantek means Phark here too
  610. [21:36:14] <tantek> if you want to talk down this path of questions molly, then you will have be willing to let go of the artificial dichotomy of hidden vs. visible and be open to a visibility spectrum.
  611. [21:36:18] <Molly> just the idea of taking something off the screen
  612. [21:36:33] <Molly> oh boy Tantek
  613. [21:36:37] <Molly> Can I quote that? LOL
  614. [21:36:38] <tantek> you decide how complex you want your model to be
  615. [21:36:45] <Molly> for my readers, for now
  616. [21:36:49] <Molly> the simple metaphor works
  617. [21:36:51] <tantek> if you want to walk down this path
  618. [21:36:52] <tantek> that is
  619. [21:36:54] <Molly> but I think the question is a fair one
  620. [21:37:05] <tantek> of course the question is a fair one
  621. [21:37:17] <Molly> so let's back up one sec
  622. [21:37:17] <tantek> but be prepared for the answer to make you have to ask more questions
  623. [21:37:32] <drewinthehead> blue pill / red pill?
  624. [21:37:36] <gsnedders> so does it depend on how big the view box (as it's called in SVG) change if something like Phark is visible, so therefore make the microformat visible?
  625. [21:37:41] <Molly> damned slippery slope
  626. [21:37:57] <tantek> visibility is like an onion ;)
  627. [21:37:58] <Molly> let me get my good hiking shoes on
  628. [21:38:18] <Molly> is it fair to use the hidden / visible metaphor at an introductory level?
  629. [21:38:21] <Molly> Because if you tell me no, now
  630. [21:38:35] <tantek> molly, it's not a metaphor when it represents reality
  631. [21:38:38] <Molly> I'm really going to bang my head against the wall
  632. [21:38:49] <gsnedders> Molly: it depends how complex you get into whether something is visible.
  633. [21:38:51] <tantek> a desk isn't a metaphor for a working surface
  634. [21:38:57] <tantek> a desk *is* a working surface
  635. [21:39:07] <Molly> let me rephrase
  636. [21:39:14] * tantek objects to metametaphor abuse.
  637. [21:39:19] <Molly> is it far to say, to this audience
  638. [21:39:53] <Molly> that hidden data is such data as vCard, iCalendar, RSS, PDF, RSS - etc.
  639. [21:39:59] <Molly> and visible data is the content of the web page?
  640. [21:40:04] <Molly> no metaphor intended
  641. [21:40:42] <Molly> if that's fair to say
  642. [21:40:43] <tantek> close, but imprecise enough that advocates of all those other technologies will scream out many excuses
  643. [21:40:47] <Molly> oh sit
  644. [21:40:48] <Molly> shit
  645. [21:40:53] <tantek> and simply confuse the discussion
  646. [21:40:59] <Molly> why am I even trying then?
  647. [21:41:06] <Molly> Why aren't you writing these damned articles instead?
  648. [21:41:11] <tantek> not sure what you are trying to do molly
  649. [21:41:13] <Molly> I'm obviously incapable of getting it right and it's frustrating me
  650. [21:41:30] <gsnedders> seems a clear and simple definition, apart from how simple it is
  651. [21:41:37] <tantek> no, it just takes precision and effort to get it right
  652. [21:41:40] <Molly> let me share what I have so far
  653. [21:41:40] <tantek> you're getting closer
  654. [21:41:42] <Molly> hang on
  655. [21:41:49] <gsnedders> (therefore brining in what tantek was saying)
  656. [21:41:52] <Molly> well effort I've given it
  657. [21:41:58] <gsnedders> *bringing
  658. [21:42:26] <tantek> let me break it down like this molly
  659. [21:43:07] <tantek> if you want to compare microformats vs. vCard, iCalendar, etc., then you have to talk about *more* than just visiblity. visibility is only one difference. that's why I gave you the brief hCard vs. vCard list above.
  660. [21:43:11] <tantek> however
  661. [21:43:41] <Molly> (ignore the formatting I just threw the text up there)
  662. [21:43:44] <tantek> if you want to talk about hidden vs. visible then you have to talk about the visibility of specific features/aspects of microformats vs. the visibility of specific/features/aspects of all those other formats
  663. [21:44:38] * tantek reads molly's url
  664. [21:45:35] <tantek> good draft
  665. [21:45:42] <tantek> I see the distinction you are trying to make
  666. [21:45:48] <tantek> and trying to come up with a label for "A" vs. "B"
  667. [21:45:49] <Molly> it makes so much sense here
  668. [21:46:03] <Molly> the average web designer will understand this
  669. [21:46:06] <tantek> the problem is that using "hidden" and "visible" for those labels is not quite correct
  670. [21:46:17] <Molly> and then I was going to go into simple examples
  671. [21:46:20] <tantek> the overall difference is more like
  672. [21:46:32] <tantek> non-web-native formats vs. web-native formats (e.g. HTML)
  673. [21:47:03] <Molly> I can see that
  674. [21:47:06] <Molly> and that makes fine sense
  675. [21:47:10] <Molly> no problem there
  676. [21:47:21] <tantek> and hidden vs. visible is a coarse approximation for that comparison
  677. [21:47:23] <Molly> so why'd we even go down this visible/hidden route?
  678. [21:47:28] <Molly> so pull all that out
  679. [21:47:33] <tantek> you brought us there :)
  680. [21:47:39] <Molly> yeah, well, again
  681. [21:47:40] <Molly> if I did
  682. [21:47:48] <tantek> we just answered questions
  683. [21:47:50] <Molly> imagine what the less educated but interested hoardes
  684. [21:47:52] <Molly> are asking
  685. [21:48:06] <tantek> they don't even know vCard exists
  686. [21:48:10] <tantek> so they are not even asking
  687. [21:48:22] <Molly> well, someone's paying me to write this stuff
  688. [21:48:27] <Molly> so someone cares. Or hey, maybe they don't
  689. [21:48:37] <Molly> maybe I could write about /anything/ ?
  690. [21:48:43] <Molly> and no one would notice? LOL
  691. [21:49:44] <tantek> I thought that was called "blogging"...
  692. [21:49:53] <Molly> except they notice
  693. [21:49:58] <tantek> :)
  694. [21:50:16] <Molly> maybe I should think about hiding myself rather than being so visible?
  695. [21:50:20] * Molly ducks
  696. [21:51:48] <gsnedders> Molly: well, get a domain which isn't a popular first name :)
  697. [21:52:32] <Molly> once the pornographers offer me enough money, I might just do that
  698. [21:52:39] <Molly> but we've been having that conversation for 10 years
  699. [21:52:45] <Molly> and it's not enough to retire on just yet
  700. [21:53:33] <gsnedders> Molly: well, it would make you less visible, not having such a domain name
  701. [21:54:07] <Molly> gsnedders: yes, that's true, but I've never shied away from visibility. It WAS an (apparently poor) attempt at levity
  702. [21:56:27] * vant ( has joined #microformats
  703. [21:57:38] * daavid ( Quit ()
  704. [22:02:59] <Molly> okay so now more semantic niggling
  705. [22:03:14] <Molly> if I'm moving the discussion away from visible/hidden
  706. [22:03:15] <tantek> semantic niggling = sniggling?
  707. [22:03:17] <Molly> to web/non-web formats
  708. [22:03:26] * Molly falls off chair
  709. [22:04:01] <Molly> we can't say "RSS" is a non-web format
  710. [22:04:12] <Molly> yet, it is a non-visible format in the context of our discussion here today, right?
  711. [22:04:53] * valmont ( has joined #microformats
  712. [22:07:51] * trovster ( has left #microformats
  713. [22:15:22] * pnhChris ( Quit ()
  714. [22:16:23] * pnhChris ( has joined #microformats
  715. [22:22:24] * gsnedders ( Quit ("to bed with me!")
  716. [22:23:43] * Atamido ( Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.73-rdmsoft [XULRunner]")
  717. [22:27:05] <tantek> molly, RSS is a leaf web format
  718. [22:29:02] <Molly> what does that mean precisely?
  719. [22:30:02] * ichigo ( has joined #microformats
  720. [22:30:15] * ichigo ( Quit (Client Quit)
  721. [22:30:36] <tantek> it's on the edge of the Web
  722. [22:30:56] <tantek> it doesn't really contribute to the web-like aspect of the Web
  723. [22:30:57] <ajturner> the web has an edge?
  724. [22:31:05] <ajturner> beware - dragons lyeth beyond!
  725. [22:31:05] <Molly> is the web flat???
  726. [22:31:14] <Molly> I really shouldn't come in here ;-)
  727. [22:31:16] <tantek> ajturner, images for example are on the very edge
  728. [22:31:20] <tantek> they don't link out
  729. [22:31:23] <tantek> they are leaf nodes
  730. [22:31:26] <Molly> ah
  731. [22:31:27] <Molly> okay
  732. [22:31:30] <tantek> RSS is mostly like that too
  733. [22:31:31] <ajturner> I think I disagree about RSS though
  734. [22:31:39] <tantek> but in a weird ephemeral way
  735. [22:31:44] <ajturner> what if I consume RSS and put those links in another format? I've pulled that leaf back in
  736. [22:31:45] <Molly> so "end of the web" type thing. You get to that document, whatever it is
  737. [22:31:52] <Molly> and there's no where to go?
  738. [22:31:59] <tantek> in the extreme yes
  739. [22:32:05] <tantek> like images
  740. [22:32:09] <tantek> in the case of RSS
  741. [22:32:15] <tantek> the "edge" aspect of it is a bit more subtle
  742. [22:32:24] <ajturner> extreme? I think that's becoming more the norm, like georss, feeds
  743. [22:32:26] <tantek> because RSS entries *do* contain links
  744. [22:32:40] <ajturner> I definitely see how images are the "Edge", last interface to the user
  745. [22:32:42] <tantek> ajturner - those are total edge cases
  746. [22:32:50] <tantek> (no pun intended ;) )
  747. [22:32:52] <Molly> hahaha
  748. [22:33:11] <ajturner> so you do mean the other edge there? (as in not many people are using them like that yet)
  749. [22:33:16] <tantek> RSS "pages" only emphemerally link out to the rest of the web
  750. [22:33:38] <tantek> ajturner, right
  751. [22:33:43] <tantek> hence the no pun intended :)
  752. [22:33:47] <ajturner> how is an RSS aggregated page different from an HTML page with lots of links?
  753. [22:34:02] <tantek> common publishing usage of each is different
  754. [22:34:04] <ajturner> one is machine created - the other maybe human created
  755. [22:34:14] <tantek> either could be either of those
  756. [22:34:19] * tantek has seen hand created RSS
  757. [22:34:25] <ajturner> eep
  758. [22:34:30] * pnhChris has hand created RSS
  759. [22:34:42] <ajturner> of course, I haven't "hand created" a web page in several years either
  760. [22:34:52] * Molly thinks pnhChris is just that kind of guy anyway
  761. [22:35:00] <pnhChris> thanks... i think :)
  762. [22:35:04] <Molly> ;-)
  763. [22:35:07] * tantek handcrafts HTML all the time :)
  764. [22:35:27] <pnhChris> now i'm handcrafting hatom instead :P
  765. [22:36:46] <pnhChris> but yeah.. before before i made the full conversion to "blog" on my own site i had a "latest news" blurb on the home page that i also had a feed for for a little while.. both edited by hand
  766. [22:37:52] <pnhChris> not that that has anything to do with anything
  767. [22:38:17] <Molly> sure it does
  768. [22:38:46] <tantek> RSS is sort of a first derivative format for HTML
  769. [22:38:53] <Molly> i mean, if I need someone to handcraft hatom, you're the first person I'll call ;-)
  770. [22:38:58] <tantek> you don't see much RSS that links directly to RSS etc.
  771. [22:39:08] <tantek> it's just a delivery mechanism for links to HTML
  772. [22:39:09] <Molly> that's an interesting point
  773. [22:39:16] <tantek> that's part of my point
  774. [22:39:23] <tantek> about its "edgeness"
  775. [22:40:44] <Molly> makes sense
  776. [22:41:20] <ajturner> hrm, curiously, how "edgy" is an image that contains highlighted areas with links to other pages/images (ala Flickr) ;)
  777. [22:43:19] <Molly> but that's not the image
  778. [22:43:24] * briansuda notes that <area> and image maps don't exist outside of the HTML
  779. [22:43:41] <Molly> exactly. The mapping in image maps is HTML, not embedded into the image
  780. [22:43:50] <Molly> now Flash
  781. [22:43:56] <pnhChris> Flash is the edgiest!
  782. [22:44:09] <ajturner> sure - but it's still marking up the image
  783. [22:44:10] <pnhChris> (well.. not really.. it can link just as well as everything else)
  784. [22:44:16] <Molly> but if the image isn't there
  785. [22:44:20] <Molly> the href still is
  786. [22:44:22] <Molly> that's the point, I think
  787. [22:44:34] <Molly> (hey if I hang out in here will I get smart?)
  788. [22:44:43] <ajturner> (hasn't worked for me ;) )
  789. [22:44:44] <pnhChris> no
  790. [22:44:58] <ajturner> audio is probably the edgiest
  791. [22:45:10] <ajturner> at least video can *show* a link - audio could only say it
  792. [22:45:18] <Molly> this was my point about Flash
  793. [22:45:34] <Molly> you can embed a link into a SWF file
  794. [22:45:38] <Molly> but it's still darned edgy
  795. [22:45:49] <pnhChris> flash can consume the edgy rss and give you a link and make it less edgy
  796. [22:45:58] <ajturner> but what's the point of something's edgy-ness?
  797. [22:46:16] * pnhChris thinks he should write Colbert and convince him to do a segment on "edginess"
  798. [22:46:17] <ajturner> seems like the edgier it is the more appealing it is?
  799. [22:46:24] * Molly agrees with Chris
  800. [22:46:55] <Molly> I think the real point is that the farther out toward the edge
  801. [22:47:05] <Molly> the less resusable and "web-like" if you will
  802. [22:47:12] <Molly> a given /thing/ is
  803. [22:47:23] * briansuda noddes
  804. [22:48:34] * pnhChris wonders how one might define the edginess of foaf
  805. [22:48:43] <Molly> Hi Brian, speaking of which, your X2V is XSLT. What else are tools for hCard and hCalendar being built with? Greasemonkey? ???
  806. [22:48:59] <briansuda> There is a Ruby parser
  807. [22:49:08] <briansuda> Live Clipboard is in Javascript
  808. [22:49:14] <briansuda> Greasemonkey is popular
  809. [22:49:33] <Molly> awesome
  810. [22:49:35] <briansuda> there are a few stand-alone Firefox plugins (Tails - no sure what that is written in?)
  811. [22:49:49] <briansuda> those pages on the wiki have an implementations section
  812. [22:50:05] <briansuda> i think there is a .NET, C#, drewinthehead has hKit that is PHP
  813. [22:50:05] <Molly> yep, I've been muddling through 'em
  814. [22:50:52] <ajturner> it's possible to turn any Greasemonkey script into a full plugin
  815. [22:51:00] <briansuda> pnhChris, i don't think you can really do much with RDF unless it is through a proxy to convert it to HTML or have a machine read it - then you have to wonder if you are already OFF the web at that point?
  816. [22:53:17] <pnhChris> but its totally linky
  817. [22:53:20] <pnhChris> on the other side
  818. [22:53:46] <tantek> briansuda, right
  819. [22:53:47] <pnhChris> ('nother new SAT word: linkiness)
  820. [22:53:52] <tantek> it's almost worse than being on the "edge"
  821. [22:53:56] <tantek> it's subterannean
  822. [22:54:00] <tantek> you have to surface it
  823. [22:54:09] <briansuda> RDF is machine readable-first, so it isn't in browser anymore
  824. [22:54:43] <Molly> if it's subterannean
  825. [22:54:46] <Molly> it MUST be hidden
  826. [22:54:50] * Molly ducks again
  827. [22:56:46] * csarven ( Quit ()
  828. [22:57:20] <tantek> molly, bingo!
  829. [22:57:22] <tantek> you got it!
  830. [22:57:59] * csarven ( has joined #microformats
  831. [22:59:20] * Molly feels suddenly enlightened
  832. [23:01:33] <drewinthehead> Molly - there is no spoon.
  833. [23:01:54] <drewinthehead> g'night all.
  834. [23:02:00] <pnhChris> night
  835. [23:02:10] <briansuda> night
  836. [23:05:18] * csarven ( Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  837. [23:09:21] * csarven ( has joined #microformats
  838. [23:23:47] <Molly> brian, where are you geo wise these days?
  839. [23:26:52] <tantek> .whereis briansuda
  840. [23:26:58] <whereisbot> [off] briansuda is probably in (Unknown city), US (guessed) [ x ] (,+(briansuda))
  841. [23:26:59] * vant ( Quit ("Leaving...")
  842. [23:27:00] <briansuda> with the Microformat or in meatspace?
  843. [23:27:45] <briansuda> at the moment i am in STL, but i'm off to Europe end of the Month, i will be presenting at EuroOSCON, then off to do some traveling
  844. [23:28:09] <Molly> i meant meatspace
  845. [23:29:16] <briansuda> yeah, London (maybe for dConstruct) then Belgium for EuroOSCON, then probably back to Reykjavik for a but
  846. [23:29:29] <briansuda> ... for a bit.
  847. [23:29:45] <Molly> Reykjavik was so interesting. I want to go back.
  848. [23:29:52] <Molly> I don't feel I had enough time there
  849. [23:30:19] <briansuda> any chance our paths will cross anytime soon?
  850. [23:30:21] <Molly> i have Australia / Spain / UK in sept/oct anyone else here?
  851. [23:30:43] <Molly> and then Vancouver in Feb, Hong Kong June and back to the UK later in June 2007
  852. [23:30:51] <Molly> that's the major it'l so far
  853. [23:30:58] <Molly> the rest is all domestic
  854. [23:31:02] <Molly> US
  855. [23:31:09] <briansuda> is there any minor international?
  856. [23:31:32] <Molly> minor international for me is Nogales Mexico ;-)
  857. [23:31:37] <Molly> I can drive there in 45 minutes :)
  858. [23:31:44] <Molly> less on a good day
  859. [23:31:46] <briansuda> i won free tickets to XTECH07, so i'll be in paris in may
  860. [23:32:13] <Molly> that's nice!
  861. [23:32:53] <briansuda> maybe i can get some microformats presentations for IceWeb07
  862. [23:32:55] <Molly> as you know I do a lot of the standards / design / blog crowd stuff
  863. [23:33:27] <Molly> hey, do you know who's org'ing that? I'd love to come back. Einar got some kind of big promotion after that
  864. [23:33:36] <Molly> you know that IceWeb 2006 was his school project?
  865. [23:33:41] <Molly> That just blows my mind.
  866. [23:33:45] <briansuda> no, i didn't
  867. [23:33:55] <briansuda> i can ask around, it isn't a big place!
  868. [23:34:11] <Molly> I need to write back to him. Yes, he, in tandem with the bank he works for
  869. [23:34:17] <Molly> and several of his mates
  870. [23:34:28] <Molly> worked together to create the IceWeb conference as part of a school-related project
  871. [23:34:37] <ajturner> briansuda - use iamhere
  872. [23:34:46] <Molly> I definitely thought that was IMPRESSIVE
  873. [23:34:47] <ajturner> whereisbot: help iamhere
  874. [23:34:49] <whereisbot> '.iamhere <location> - Sets your current location'
  875. [23:34:56] <Molly> and a big lesson for conference coordinators
  876. [23:35:09] <briansuda> feel free to CC me too, i can certainly help him organize and/or get participants and/or speak as well
  877. [23:35:40] <briansuda> .iamhere Saint Louis, MO
  878. [23:35:43] <whereisbot> now I know you're in ST LOUIS, US [38.62648 x -90.198647]
  879. [23:36:43] <Molly> My main concern Brian, and maybe you have some insight
  880. [23:37:02] <Molly> is that standards are only beginning to be of interest in Iceland, must less progressive use of XHTML and microformats
  881. [23:37:12] <Molly> this isn't to say the people there aren't really, really smart and open to a lot of ideas
  882. [23:37:48] <briansuda> true, there is an exodus to other places like London. But that doesn't mean we can't introduce them.
  883. [23:37:52] <Molly> but I don't have to tell you how unique and perhaps isolated a culture it can be
  884. [23:37:54] <Molly> oh I agree
  885. [23:38:03] <Molly> and not only that, but IceWeb was the invitation for us to do that
  886. [23:38:12] <Molly> and we should continue. I was merely saying that as someone who has lived there
  887. [23:38:14] * tantek ( Quit ()
  888. [23:38:17] <Molly> maybe you have insight into the way to do that
  889. [23:39:28] <briansuda> they are very nationalistic/patriotic and because of their size they are very willing to make you feel welcome. The running joke is that they always ask foreigners "So, how do you like iceland"
  890. [23:39:53] <briansuda> if there is a new idea, like XHTML, standards, i think it could move very fast throughout they community
  891. [23:40:22] <Molly> i agree
  892. [23:40:23] <briansuda> they are much smaller and everyone talks to each other, i can't image how competitive it is in such a small pool
  893. [23:40:26] <Molly> the one block i found
  894. [23:40:28] <Molly> was accessibility
  895. [23:40:59] <briansuda> as in NOT accessiblly interested?
  896. [23:41:04] <Molly> right
  897. [23:41:08] <Molly> lots of pushback on that
  898. [23:42:03] <briansuda> strange, with all their extra letters in the alphabeta, i bet they get crapped on all the time for UTF-8 support, i would have guessed that accessibility brings other things for free, like internationalization?
  899. [23:42:22] <Molly> actually the i18n stuff they were into
  900. [23:42:27] <Molly> I did the opening session
  901. [23:42:36] <Molly> and that was a "roadmap to"
  902. [23:42:42] <Molly> all the "web 2.0" stuff
  903. [23:42:50] <Molly> and then a session on i18n
  904. [23:42:58] <briansuda> ah, pretty similar to the @media presentation?
  905. [23:42:58] <Molly> at their request, so the interest is definitely there for that
  906. [23:43:03] <Molly> no
  907. [23:43:19] <Molly> well, delivery far more precise / technical perhaps
  908. [23:43:28] <Molly> @media is more inspirational etc.
  909. [23:43:47] <briansuda> i listened to tha @media, there isn't a podcast for IceWeb, is there?
  910. [23:43:48] <Molly> evangelical. whatever the right term is these days. I don't know. All I know is people made fun of me because I presented barefoot ;-)
  911. [23:43:52] <Molly> nope
  912. [23:44:23] <briansuda> it is pretty cold for barefoot! :)
  913. [23:44:42] <Molly> maybe if you're sitting
  914. [23:44:47] <Molly> but I can't stand still when I present
  915. [23:44:51] <Molly> if I'm standing still or sitting
  916. [23:44:55] <Molly> I'm probably not feeling well :)
  917. [23:45:07] <briansuda> like a shark, constantly on the move!
  918. [23:45:39] <Molly> not to mention I sometimes look around the room and go "is it hot in here or is it just me" and the majority of young male faces are blankly staring at me and I realize
  919. [23:45:41] <Molly> um yeah
  920. [23:45:41] <briansuda> well, if you do contact them, let me know, i will probably be around there in march so i can lend my services in a variety of ways - even if it is to help get them in touch with the right people they want to bring.
  921. [23:45:43] <Molly> it's me ;-)
  922. [23:45:56] <Molly> oh yeah, I'd love that Brian!
  923. [23:46:25] <briansuda> it is a facinating place, and if you make it back certainly stay awhile and i can show you around the country-side
  924. [23:46:52] <Molly> that would be great
  925. [23:46:57] <Molly> i would love that

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