IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

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  6. [00:40:59] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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  14. [02:00:40] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  15. [02:32:04] * briansuda looks around
  16. [02:34:39] <briansuda> I think there is a discrepancy on the wiki, i just wanted to check with folks before i fixed anything.
  17. [02:35:17] <briansuda> on the http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-authoring page, under "other affiliations" it mentions that vCard seems to imply a model of a person only being associated with one organization
  18. [02:35:50] <briansuda> on the http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-singular-properties page, ORG is not listed as a singlular property and can be used more than once, which is in conflict with the authoring page.
  19. [02:36:45] <briansuda> that lead to the further discussion about when do you mark-up a person's ORG as its own hCard?
  20. [02:37:12] <tantek_> briansuda, the authoring page is only a set of simple guidelines for folks
  21. [02:37:21] <tantek_> it's certainly not comprehensive
  22. [02:37:30] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
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  24. [02:37:45] <briansuda> can/should it be reworded?
  25. [02:43:58] <johnallsopp> here is what I sent ot Brian to discuss
  26. [02:43:59] <johnallsopp> <div class="vcard"><div class="fn">John Allsopp</div>
  27. [02:43:59] <johnallsopp> <div class="org"><span class="title">Director</span>Westciv</div>
  28. [02:43:59] <johnallsopp> <div class="org"><span class="title">Director</span>Web Directions</div>
  29. [02:44:26] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=8024 * IwaiMasaharu * (-411) sync: english: 15:05, 5 Aug 200
  30. [02:44:41] <tantek> johnallsopp, that makes no sense unless you want your title showing up as part of the name of the org
  31. [02:44:52] <tantek> brian, why does it need to be reworded
  32. [02:45:28] <briansuda> i'm not sure "You can have more than one; converters will simply append them all in source order." is correct
  33. [02:45:49] <briansuda> if you can have multiple ORGs, then there will be multiple ORG properties in the resulting vCard
  34. [02:46:16] <briansuda> it also mentions that you should consider added affiliations into the TITLE propertye
  35. [02:46:39] <briansuda> i was just wondering if that should be cleared-up
  36. [02:47:17] <mfbot> [[Template:design patterns-ja]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:design_patterns-ja * IwaiMasaharu * (+588) based: english: 15:02, 5 Aug 2006
  37. [02:47:22] <briansuda> johnallsopp, you could do <span class="title">Director</span> <span class="org">Westciv</span>
  38. [02:47:34] <johnallsopp> Brian
  39. [02:47:46] <johnallsopp> yes - though the association between title and organization is m,uch looser
  40. [02:47:53] <briansuda> the tricky thing is that you will lose which TITLE is associated with which ORG
  41. [02:47:56] <johnallsopp> in the former, it's direct
  42. [02:48:03] <mfbot> [[Main Page-ja]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-ja&diff=0&oldid=8025 * IwaiMasaharu * (+6) デザインパターン - Using -ja template
  43. [02:48:10] <johnallsopp> mind you, if the org were in its own hCard it would make no sense
  44. [02:48:19] <johnallsopp> as the title would belong to the orgs hCard
  45. [02:48:50] <briansuda> correct, there is no scope if you nest hCards inside each other
  46. [02:49:06] <briansuda> which is both a good and bad thing.
  47. [02:49:15] <johnallsopp> and aboveall a reality
  48. [02:49:29] <johnallsopp> Tantek is correct that this is saying the org is Director Westciv
  49. [02:49:31] <johnallsopp> which is BAD
  50. [02:49:40] <johnallsopp> cuase its not
  51. [02:49:58] <johnallsopp> so it seems that the best we can do semantically is as you suggest Brian
  52. [02:50:57] <briansuda> now, i would then assume that your vCard gets two separate lines, one for each ORG, and they won't be appended together.
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  54. [02:51:53] <johnallsopp> yes, they would have the common parent of the root, but be distinct siblings
  55. [02:52:19] <tantek_> huh?
  56. [02:56:04] <briansuda> i don't know of any best-practice on when to mark-up data as a person, and when to mark it up as an organization when the person you are describing, has all work information.
  57. [02:56:51] <briansuda> i guess as long as you have a contact name, then you are describing the person, if there is no name, then you are describing the organization.
  58. [02:58:35] <johnallsopp> what I was raising with you was that as a common use pattern particularly for people is to mark up people as hCards, then it makes similar sense to mark up organisations as hCards
  59. [02:59:18] <johnallsopp> now, if the organisation is in a persons vCard, is that a good idea, a bad idea, or not any different from when an org is not inide a persons hCard?
  60. [02:59:44] <tantek_> briansuda, correct
  61. [02:59:52] <tantek_> either you are talking about a person or an organization
  62. [02:59:58] <tantek_> once you figure that it is easy
  63. [03:00:03] <johnallsopp> tantek
  64. [03:00:06] <johnallsopp> its a person
  65. [03:00:14] <johnallsopp> with org details inside
  66. [03:00:25] <tantek_> simple answer - just use one hCard
  67. [03:00:30] <johnallsopp> so the issue is, shoudl that org become an embedded hCard?
  68. [03:00:35] <tantek_> that handles the 80%+ case very nicely
  69. [03:00:39] <tantek_> why?
  70. [03:00:45] <tantek_> what is the advantage of the added complexity?
  71. [03:00:52] <johnallsopp> because it is a person or organisation
  72. [03:01:40] <tantek_> how is an org a person or organization? your answer makes no sense
  73. [03:01:59] <briansuda> johnallsopp, you want to write the data once, use all of it to generate a PERSON vCard, then is 80% of it (sans the name) to generate an ORGANIZATION vCard as well?
  74. [03:02:26] <briansuda> and get 2 vCards from one thing
  75. [03:02:58] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  76. [03:03:15] <johnallsopp> tantek - the org, in the example say westciv IS an organisation
  77. [03:03:19] <johnallsopp> its who I work for
  78. [03:04:55] <johnallsopp> I appreciate it adds complexity to the hCard - an embedded uf, but if have cases where we do mark up organisations as hCards, and others where we don't (because we have an org inside an hCard) then that's also complex - just a different kind of complexity
  79. [03:05:31] <tantek_> no not really
  80. [03:05:39] <tantek_> hierarchical complexity is always worse
  81. [03:05:46] <tantek_> flat is better nearly always
  82. [03:05:52] <tantek_> briansuda is correct
  83. [03:06:00] <tantek_> just make two hCards and you're done
  84. [03:06:04] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  85. [03:06:05] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  86. [03:07:13] <tantek> you will likely find that having multiple hCards matches content publishing/iterating patterns better as well
  87. [03:07:30] <tantek> you'll want to add some note or category to the org which don't necessarily apply to the person
  88. [03:07:40] <tantek> and then if they're separate that's easy
  89. [03:07:46] <tantek> if not, you end up having to redo a bunch
  90. [03:07:51] <tantek> the two are loosely coupled
  91. [03:07:53] <johnallsopp> that does make sense sure
  92. [03:08:01] <johnallsopp> and its easier to write about ;-)
  93. [03:08:05] <tantek> it's less work over time
  94. [03:08:09] <tantek> = lower barriers
  95. [03:08:13] <tantek> = greater adoption
  96. [03:08:31] <tantek> there are folks that try to make insane hierarchical structures for information
  97. [03:08:47] <tantek> and just how successful are they with getting their structures adopted? very little.
  98. [03:08:51] <briansuda> you can always use some of the include pattern to get the data from different sources, that saves some duplication in the HTML and makes it flexible to change in the future as well
  99. [03:09:07] <tantek> even something as simple as folksonomy vs. taxonomy has taught us that flatter is better
  100. [03:09:11] <tantek> in terms of ease of use
  101. [03:09:13] <tantek> in terms of adoption
  102. [03:09:19] <johnallsopp> one of the reasons I am being a bit of a pita about these seemingly little things is I want to make sure I cover things that need covering, and know what NOT to cover too in the book
  103. [03:09:21] <tantek> in terms of the richness of the data generated and published
  104. [03:09:36] <johnallsopp> I hope that makes sense
  105. [03:09:44] <tantek> isn't it obvious to not bother with covering complex cases in a first book?
  106. [03:09:56] <tantek> when there are so many simple cases to cover?
  107. [03:10:08] <johnallsopp> it depends on the approach of the book
  108. [03:10:09] <tantek> use a breadth first approach rather than depth first
  109. [03:10:20] <tantek> and you won't ever have to deal with questions like these
  110. [03:10:25] <tantek> until at least a second book or edition
  111. [03:10:31] <johnallsopp> but in covering the breadth of the vCard specification...
  112. [03:13:40] <mfbot> [[press-ja]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press-ja&diff=0&oldid=8026 * IwaiMasaharu * (+219) sync: english: 18:48, 5 Aug 2006
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  114. [03:15:41] <tantek> johnallsopp, i'm not sure it is useful to web authors to cover the breadth of vCard RFC2426
  115. [03:15:51] <tantek> or did you mean to say hCard specification?
  116. [03:15:52] <johnallsopp> Tantek
  117. [03:15:55] <johnallsopp> I do agree
  118. [03:16:04] <johnallsopp> but the issue for me is where to start and stop
  119. [03:16:12] <tantek> seriously, both vCard and iCalendar RFCs take *a lot* of patience to read through.
  120. [03:16:25] <tantek> And I'm still picking out details from them.
  121. [03:16:26] <johnallsopp> you bet!
  122. [03:16:48] <johnallsopp> don't start on agent - I just decided to leave that out altogether :-)
  123. [03:16:57] <tantek> and darnit, I wish I had read them back in 1998-1999 and come up with some of this sooner. :(
  124. [03:17:17] <tantek> agent is not as bad as organizer/attendee in iCalendar
  125. [03:17:27] * briansuda noddes
  126. [03:18:26] <johnallsopp> thanks Tantek - something to look forward to later in the week
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  128. [03:21:57] <tantek> johnallsopp, your question about hCard nesting for org should be added to hcard-issues page on wiki
  129. [03:22:10] <tantek> we should at least explore it and clarify it one way or another
  130. [03:22:16] <tantek> even if it doesn't apply to most authors
  131. [03:22:21] <johnallsopp> I'll do that asap
  132. [03:22:28] <tantek> thanks
  133. [03:22:31] <johnallsopp> thanks or taking the time to look at it
  134. [03:22:53] <johnallsopp> funnily it will save me a lot of time to not have to address it in the book
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  137. [04:07:55] <tantek> johnallsopp, that's what we're here for! to save you a lot of time. :)
  138. [04:08:40] <johnallsopp> I certainly appreciate it 0- cause then I spent more time on the stuff that matters - thanks - off to finish my hCard chapter draft
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  140. [04:28:50] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  146. [06:08:55] <mfbot> [[design-patterns-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/design-patterns-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+43)
  147. [06:12:01] <mfbot> [[Template:design patterns-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/Template:design_patterns-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+688)
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  149. [06:13:53] <mfbot> [[Main Page-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page-fr&diff=0&oldid=8027 * ChristopheDucamp * (-592) Design Patterns -
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  152. [06:18:00] <mfbot> [[press-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=press-fr&diff=0&oldid=8029 * ChristopheDucamp * (+209)
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  156. [06:24:27] <jibot> Atamido is Paul Bryson, http://orangeman.commo.de/
  157. [06:25:33] <mfbot> [[hreview-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-fr&diff=0&oldid=8032 * ChristopheDucamp * (+10) Détails des Champs -
  158. [06:26:39] <mfbot> [[hreview-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hreview-fr&diff=0&oldid=8033 * ChristopheDucamp * (+2) Plus d'Equivalents Sémantiques -
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  161. [06:48:05] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=8034 * Bill Humphries * (+479) Examples in the wild -
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  164. [07:00:08] <mfbot> [[hatom]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom&diff=0&oldid=8036 * Bill Humphries * (-70) Examples in the wild -
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  166. [07:03:46] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  167. [07:04:06] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  168. [07:06:04] <mfbot> [[implementations]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations&diff=0&oldid=8037 * Bill Humphries * (+201)
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  175. [08:02:37] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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  177. [08:07:02] * drewinthehead_ is now known as drewm
  178. [08:07:21] * drewm forgot to log off as drewinthehead at home
  179. [08:08:01] <drewm> ?def drewm is drewinthehead
  180. [08:08:02] <jibot> drewm is drewinthehead
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  182. [08:12:05] <jibot> McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
  183. [08:19:27] <drewm> mornin' McNulty
  184. [08:23:03] <McNulty> morning
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  193. [10:03:57] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
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  199. [10:48:21] <drewm> quiet today :)
  200. [10:49:21] * johnallsopp (n=johnalls@CPE-60-227-71-192.nsw.bigpond.net.au) Quit ()
  201. [10:49:45] <trovster> shsss
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  204. [11:47:14] <trovster> I wonder who johnallsopp could be...?
  205. [12:03:05] <johnallsopp> http://westciv.typepad.com/dog_or_higher/
  206. [12:03:09] <johnallsopp> :-)
  207. [12:03:32] <johnallsopp> http://westciv.com
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  209. [12:04:35] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  211. [12:13:14] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  213. [12:19:24] <jibot> drewm is drewinthehead
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  215. [12:34:42] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
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  217. [12:42:35] <jibot> remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
  218. [12:54:44] * sreynen (n=sreynen@71-214-242-108.desm.qwest.net) Quit ()
  219. [13:04:49] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
  220. [13:15:50] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  221. [13:15:50] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  222. [13:21:48] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  223. [13:21:49] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  224. [13:36:37] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@140.247.240.103) has joined #microformats
  225. [13:58:54] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  226. [13:58:55] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  227. [13:59:07] <factoryjoe> sup pnhChris
  228. [13:59:34] <pnhChris> nothin' yet
  229. [13:59:47] <factoryjoe> ;)
  230. [14:02:24] <drewm> been low-key here today
  231. [14:02:35] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  232. [14:02:36] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  233. [14:04:19] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
  234. [14:04:19] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
  235. [14:04:20] <jibot> briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
  236. [14:18:12] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
  237. [14:18:13] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  238. [14:24:00] * henrichP (n=Miranda@svs15.informatik.uni-hamburg.de) Quit ("Go")
  239. [14:25:08] <drewm> i wish hAtom didn't require any dates
  240. [14:25:19] <drewm> makes it so limited
  241. [14:25:34] <trovster> It's funny how updated is required, whereas created isn't
  242. [14:26:49] <Phae> Dates seem like a fair enough thing to include though.
  243. [14:27:00] <Phae> anything you stick up on the web is there for the first time at a certain time
  244. [14:28:07] <Phae> trovster: I was saying that a couple weeks ago. They made it make sense.
  245. [14:28:12] <drewm> what if the items are all dynamically generated and so all have a date of now()
  246. [14:28:24] <Phae> I don't recall how though. :) I still think published should be required over updated.
  247. [14:29:08] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  248. [14:29:14] <trovster> <abbr class="created updated">today</abbr> :D
  249. [14:29:39] <drewm> those silver-tongued microformateers, Phae
  250. [14:29:44] <Phae> I know.
  251. [14:29:49] * Phae shakes fist.
  252. [14:30:09] <Phae> Chris was saying something about if he had an old page.. and didn't recall creation date..
  253. [14:30:13] <Phae> then it'd just be updated
  254. [14:30:15] <trovster> It's something to do with converting it to Atom, but it still doesnt make sense to have updated required and not created
  255. [14:30:20] <Phae> but it doesn't feel that watertight
  256. [14:30:30] <pnhChris> Phae: created is easy to lose
  257. [14:30:36] <pnhChris> Phae: real easy
  258. [14:30:53] <pnhChris> be it moving hosts clobbering real file dates
  259. [14:31:04] <pnhChris> or redesigns
  260. [14:31:07] <Phae> okay
  261. [14:31:08] <pnhChris> or whatever else
  262. [14:31:13] <Phae> It's okay if there's a decent reason.
  263. [14:31:17] <Phae> It doens't bother me
  264. [14:31:19] <Phae> heh
  265. [14:31:35] <pnhChris> though i agree on dates in hatom.. just not sure how to go about things otherwise
  266. [14:31:49] <drewm> i think no date = now()
  267. [14:32:09] <pnhChris> to some extent I'd find it useful to be able to publish without dates... but it doens't 'feel' right
  268. [14:32:16] <pnhChris> at least not in the most recent case i cared
  269. [14:32:35] <drewm> implied-space-time-continuum-optimisation
  270. [14:33:04] <pnhChris> http://placenamewhere.com/ where the presentation is rather minimialist... though have dates to use elsewhere and would if i wrote a proper feed view of the data
  271. [14:33:37] <pnhChris> its a case of no-dates or perhaps display:none, which I'm not opposed to like some are
  272. [14:34:16] <pnhChris> because I look at it just as the current layout calling for X information to be hidden / moved / highlighted whatever
  273. [14:35:27] <Phae> "now" is a bit hard anyway
  274. [14:35:40] <Phae> If you wanna get philosophical
  275. [14:36:04] <pnhChris> One could also consider falling back to the date info on the entire page rather then items
  276. [14:36:31] <McNulty> pnhChris - you mean the Date header in the HTTP?
  277. [14:36:36] <pnhChris> aye
  278. [14:36:43] <pnhChris> vs. now()
  279. [14:36:46] <McNulty> Is that mandatory?
  280. [14:36:51] <McNulty> (the header)
  281. [14:36:53] <pnhChris> dunno
  282. [14:37:04] <pnhChris> its not always accurate
  283. [14:37:18] <pnhChris> but its better to me then now(), if its provided
  284. [14:37:21] * drewm laughs in the face of accuracy
  285. [14:37:23] <briansuda> you shouldn't rely on the HTTP header, because what if the file is getting converted locally, not over HTTP
  286. [14:37:24] <drewm> er ..
  287. [14:37:34] <McNulty> HTTP isn't part of the document, though
  288. [14:37:55] <McNulty> If I save some HTML into a DB/filesystem and retrieve it later it needs to keep that kind of info
  289. [14:38:42] <pnhChris> we're already talking worst case of no date info provided with the immediate content but Atom needing it
  290. [14:39:04] <pnhChris> I wouldn't see the harm in trusting whatever db+parsing system was outputting over something like now()
  291. [14:39:05] <McNulty> date=now() seems simpler than date=http-date OR now()
  292. [14:39:08] * pnhChris shrugs
  293. [14:39:27] <pnhChris> but you lose good data for the occations its been good
  294. [14:39:33] <McNulty> you do get feeds that don't have dates in at all
  295. [14:39:43] <McNulty> but they might not be appropriate for Atom
  296. [14:41:38] <McNulty> e.g. Last.FM have a 'most popular artists' feed that is a sort of top 20 list
  297. [14:41:53] <McNulty> I don't believe they include date items, but they present it as RSS.
  298. [14:41:59] <drewm> that's a good example, McNulty
  299. [14:42:09] <drewm> it doesn't make sense to have any date on those items
  300. [14:42:34] <McNulty> drewm - It might be that the answer is 'that list isn't a suitable use of Atom' though
  301. [14:42:40] <Phae> Surely the top 20 is wekly
  302. [14:42:43] <Phae> weekly*
  303. [14:42:46] <Phae> or something, and that's the date
  304. [14:42:50] * McNulty goes to look at the feed
  305. [14:42:51] <drewm> could be live, Phae
  306. [14:43:11] <drewm> the situation i have in mind, the data is live ... as in the moment you loaded the page
  307. [14:43:20] <Phae> But it'll be the top 20 as off XXtime
  308. [14:43:29] <drewm> now() :)
  309. [14:43:39] <Phae> heh
  310. [14:43:41] <Phae> okay okay
  311. [14:43:43] <Phae> :P
  312. [14:44:27] <McNulty> Looks like I remembered wrong, they don't do their top 20s as RSS
  313. [14:44:29] <drewm> i don't want to get into the situation of having to generate the current date/time and output it nonsensically just for the benefit of hAtom
  314. [14:44:31] <McNulty> they do it as 'other XML feed'
  315. [14:44:32] <pnhChris> no.. not now()... whenever the original html was built... thus my thought taking the http headers if avail
  316. [14:44:53] <McNulty> they only do RSS feeds of stuff that has a clear time element
  317. [14:45:18] <pnhChris> but whatever
  318. [14:45:21] <Phae> heh
  319. [14:45:28] <pnhChris> i don't realy have a horse in this race
  320. [14:45:46] * drewm doesn't have a horse, but he'd like a pony
  321. [14:46:05] * dglazkov (n=dglazkov@adsl-065-081-081-030.sip.bhm.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
  322. [14:46:06] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  323. [14:46:08] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
  324. [14:46:12] <McNulty> del.icio.us's feeds of bookmarks seem to use the time that bookmark was first added
  325. [14:46:26] <McNulty> which is distinct from the order in the list...
  326. [14:46:30] <pnhChris> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eric/8850/
  327. [14:46:54] <McNulty> I wonder how many feed readers actually reorder stuff by date rather than presenting it in the order the feed uses
  328. [14:47:15] <pnhChris> i'm sure a few
  329. [14:47:27] <factoryjoe> NNW allows your to choose
  330. [14:47:52] <pnhChris> i can order thigns in NNW by any 'coumn' i want... not to mention having "groups" of feeds where items from multiple feeds are mushed together
  331. [14:48:05] <drewm> i sort by date, because i tend to munge feeds together in groups
  332. [14:48:13] <drewm> :)
  333. [14:48:43] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  334. [14:48:56] <pnhChris> i'm sorta half in groups and half out
  335. [14:49:29] <dglazkov> hello worlds
  336. [14:49:45] <drewm> is atom biased towards date-ordered data?
  337. [14:50:40] <drewm> i guess with atom each entry stands on its own
  338. [14:50:56] <drewm> so perhaps a feed of a top 20 chart is unsuitable
  339. [14:51:07] <pnhChris> i would think the same of RSS
  340. [14:51:11] <McNulty> I'm sure there are other, more suitable formats.
  341. [14:51:44] <pnhChris> though a top 20 chart is very much time sensitive
  342. [14:51:56] <McNulty> it's not really time-sensitive per entry
  343. [14:52:05] <pnhChris> sure it is
  344. [14:52:08] <drewm> as a whole
  345. [14:52:16] <pnhChris> as individual content objects
  346. [14:52:34] <drewm> but the time difference between entries isn't important ... yet the order of entries is
  347. [14:52:35] <McNulty> I mean the entries don't have uncoupled time sensitivity, their times are only important in relation to the other items in the list
  348. [14:52:36] <Phae> Time to work ttyl
  349. [14:52:37] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) Quit ("Leaving")
  350. [14:52:37] <pnhChris> "#1: Britney Spears"
  351. [14:52:46] <pnhChris> is a measurement at a moment in time
  352. [14:53:03] <McNulty> ah, ok
  353. [14:53:15] <drewm> yes, around 1997 ;)
  354. [14:53:51] <pnhChris> i meant her drunk/high/whatever youtube video :P
  355. [14:53:55] <pnhChris> but yes
  356. [14:55:12] <pnhChris> even things like my netflix feeds
  357. [14:56:22] <McNulty> Is there a different 'lists of stuff' format that might be better?
  358. [14:56:30] <pnhChris> shipment/returns notifications clearly have specific times
  359. [14:56:40] <McNulty> The Atom format to me implies timestamped authored items
  360. [14:56:41] <pnhChris> but the queue ordering is also time sensitive
  361. [14:57:15] <McNulty> Also are we talking about the scope of Atom, or are we talking about hAtom?
  362. [14:57:56] <pnhChris> i think the point was, are there things where hAtom isn't good because of ties to Atom or assumptions made based off of Atom
  363. [14:58:28] <pnhChris> like the case of wanting to use hAtom a feed but not having dates avaiable for /whatever/ reasons
  364. [14:58:40] <McNulty> The hAtom spec even talks about taking the minimal number of elements from Atom needed for a 'blog post' microformat
  365. [15:02:11] * alexandermuse (n=alexande@63.98.55.146) has joined #microformats
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  367. [15:38:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  368. [15:38:47] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  369. [15:44:39] * Zeo (n=zeo@218.111.49.131) has joined #microformats
  370. [15:44:47] <drewm> Tails even labels hAtom entries as 'blog posts'
  371. [15:44:54] <drewm> that's bad bad bad :)
  372. [15:45:59] <pnhChris> maybe i'd be more inclined to care about tails if i used firefox
  373. [15:46:50] <pnhChris> (for more then just its dev tools)
  374. [15:47:47] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
  375. [15:48:06] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  376. [15:50:13] <trovster> But it's nice that hReview works with include now!
  377. [15:56:33] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit ()
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  379. [16:00:08] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
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  383. [16:21:39] <drewm> in tails, trovster?
  384. [16:22:26] <trovster> yup
  385. [16:22:57] <drewm> oo
  386. [16:23:03] <drewm> a.include?
  387. [16:23:25] <trovster> Preliminary support IIRC
  388. [16:24:06] <drewm> cool
  389. [16:24:15] <drewm> still need a few more screen reader tests on that
  390. [16:24:58] <tantek_> how are those tests going?
  391. [16:25:03] * tantek_ is now known as tantek
  392. [16:25:03] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  393. [16:25:10] <tantek> are the test cases documented on the wiki?
  394. [16:25:11] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  395. [16:25:11] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  396. [16:26:17] <trovster> http://blog.codeeg.com/2006/08/05/tails-release-032/ re: 'Added support for the include microformat pattern'
  397. [16:27:17] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
  398. [16:27:37] <tantek> trovster, that's awesome
  399. [16:28:04] <trovster> I know, especially since I was asking for support so I could check a page doing exactly that include
  400. [16:28:41] * imajes (n=imajes@growl/imajes) has joined #microformats
  401. [16:30:01] * McNulty (n=McNulty@nat-195.157.130.52.maximalls.net) Quit ("i <3 pork (http://dev.ojnk.net)")
  402. [16:30:35] <tantek> especially love the open sourcing with the MIT license. very cool.
  403. [16:35:44] * hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober) has joined #microformats
  404. [16:36:20] <drewm> sorry .. back now
  405. [16:36:45] <drewm> tantek: http://microformats.org/wiki/include-pattern-feedback#Hyperlink_Include_-_Screen_Reader_Testing
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  415. [17:32:29] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
  416. [17:33:00] <trovster> http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/07/live-from-wwdc-2006-steve-jobs-keynote/ is fun, btw.
  417. [17:33:17] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  418. [17:33:18] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
  419. [17:38:29] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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  421. [17:49:23] <mfbot> [[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=8038 * ChristopheDucamp * (+469) Exemples dans la jungle -
  422. [17:53:30] <mfbot> [[algorithm-nearest-in-parent-fr]] MN http://microformats.org/wiki/algorithm-nearest-in-parent-fr * ChristopheDucamp * (+613)
  423. [17:54:55] <mfbot> [[hatom-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hatom-fr&diff=0&oldid=8039 * ChristopheDucamp * (+15)
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  426. [18:03:49] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  430. [18:22:47] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8040 * ChristopheDucamp * (+7942) restoring content from previous version (page too big to edit safely)
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  432. [18:23:42] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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  435. [18:28:03] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8041 * ChristopheDucamp * (+504) WordPress -
  436. [18:29:24] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8042 * ChristopheDucamp * (+106) Google -
  437. [18:29:55] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8043 * ChristopheDucamp * (+1) WordPress -
  438. [18:31:06] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8044 * ChristopheDucamp * (+104) Yahoo UK Movies -
  439. [18:31:22] <mfbot> [[implementations-fr]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=implementations-fr&diff=0&oldid=8045 * ChristopheDucamp * (+3) Scott Allan Wallick -
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  446. [18:46:07] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  447. [18:46:26] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  448. [18:50:38] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  449. [18:50:38] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  450. [18:54:15] * bewest (n=ben@httpcraft/bewest) has joined #microformats
  451. [18:54:16] <jibot> bewest is curious about emerging standards and works for Alexa.com
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  453. [19:00:07] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  454. [19:12:09] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
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  456. [19:18:10] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has left #Microformats
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  460. [20:06:23] * Faye (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  461. [20:06:31] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer))
  462. [20:06:43] * Faye is now known as Phae
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  464. [20:07:52] <jibot> _fil_ is co-author of SPIP (www.spip.net) and works on implementing microformats in it
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  469. [20:18:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
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  480. [21:40:46] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
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  484. [22:09:48] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  485. [22:09:48] <jibot> Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
  486. [22:09:59] * Harry_Slaughter (n=harry@ip68-8-170-38.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  487. [22:16:30] <drewinthehead> hey
  488. [22:16:42] <kingryan> hey drewinthehead, Phae
  489. [22:17:12] <drewinthehead> Phae, did you see this? http://barcamp.org/BarCampLondon
  490. [22:17:33] <drewinthehead> might be of interest to UK follks
  491. [22:17:51] <drewinthehead> i've signed up to do something microformaty
  492. [22:20:59] <drewinthehead> it'd be good to see some µF folks there :)
  493. [22:23:06] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 148 (No route to host))
  494. [22:25:04] <drewinthehead> night!
  495. [22:25:11] <kingryan> later, drewinthehead
  496. [22:25:18] * drewinthehead is now known as drewinthebed
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  505. [23:55:37] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) Quit ("Death before decaf")
  506. [23:58:00] * drewinthebed (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")

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See http://microformats.org/wiki/mflogbot for more information.