IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-08-17
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [00:07:13] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
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- [01:50:28] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [03:05:00] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [03:05:21] * cori[s] (n=cori[s]@pdpc/supporter/active/CoriS) has joined #microformats
- [03:23:13] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/Resume.app * Chris Messina * (+610)
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- [03:52:05] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8168 * Chris Messina * (+27)
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- [04:39:32] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [04:39:49] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [04:46:53] <factoryjoe>
tantek:
- [04:46:56] <factoryjoe>
hi!
- [04:47:04] <factoryjoe>
http://microformats.org/wiki/Resume.app
- [04:49:23] <tantek>
???
- [04:53:00] <factoryjoe>
it's an effort to create a desktop client that spits out hresumes
- [04:54:20] <tantek>
how about a widget instead?
- [04:54:24] <tantek>
should be much simpler
- [04:54:33] <tantek>
and smaller
- [04:54:47] <factoryjoe>
i'd like something that works like Address Book.app
- [04:54:49] <factoryjoe>
besides
- [04:54:53] <factoryjoe>
it's like going to be a webkit app
- [04:54:56] <tantek>
what, slow and piggy?
- [04:54:59] <factoryjoe>
see http://webkit.pbwiki.com
- [04:55:13] <factoryjoe>
no, native and slick
- [04:55:17] <tantek>
Address Book is a terribly inefficient app
- [04:55:31] <factoryjoe>
we're talking about a resume app
- [04:55:36] <factoryjoe>
you won't use it that often
- [04:55:42] <factoryjoe>
and besides, i have people already working on
- [04:55:43] <factoryjoe>
it
- [04:55:51] <factoryjoe>
it should be fast and dirty
- [04:55:57] <tantek>
installing stuff always sucks
- [04:55:57] <factoryjoe>
ideally w/ a widget component
- [04:56:03] <factoryjoe>
not on the mac, dude
- [04:56:03] <tantek>
that's the fundamental problem with desktop apps
- [04:56:06] <factoryjoe>
besides
- [04:56:08] <tantek>
any anything
- [04:56:10] <factoryjoe>
it'll sync w/ web services
- [04:56:12] <tantek>
on anything
- [04:56:18] <factoryjoe>
or upload via .mac or fto
- [04:56:21] <factoryjoe>
ftp
- [04:56:40] <factoryjoe>
brb
- [04:57:22] <tantek>
the other problem "native" applications is inflexible user interfaces
- [04:59:43] <tantek>
and fewer people that can update them
- [04:59:46] <tantek>
maintain them
- [05:00:21] <tantek>
unless something is computationally intensive, there is no good reason to write it as a "native" app, and plenty of reasons not to.
- [05:05:33] <trel1023>
web chris - web
- [05:08:44] <factoryjoe>
eez
- [05:08:54] <factoryjoe>
well
- [05:09:08] <factoryjoe>
i've not seen all that many web-based compelling mF UIs
- [05:09:17] <factoryjoe>
and the apple UI stuff takes care of so much of that
- [05:09:23] <factoryjoe>
that i'm willing to start there
- [05:09:25] <factoryjoe>
set the bar
- [05:09:31] <factoryjoe>
and then you guys can rewrite for the web
- [05:09:37] <factoryjoe>
it'll be MIT licensed
- [05:09:43] <factoryjoe>
so you can take it and do what you like
- [05:09:51] <factoryjoe>
i'm working w/ the emurse.com guy
- [05:09:55] <factoryjoe>
and some other folks
- [05:10:00] <tantek>
sure, bootstrapping
- [05:10:02] <factoryjoe>
we'll see if it even happens
- [05:10:08] <factoryjoe>
but it's a good idea
- [05:10:11] <factoryjoe>
and could set the model
- [05:10:13] <tantek>
also good to try different approaches
- [05:10:15] <tantek>
i'm just saying
- [05:10:20] <tantek>
don't get your hopes up for native apps
- [05:10:21] <factoryjoe>
for an address book that's driven by html
- [05:10:25] <tantek>
they typically start with a bang
- [05:10:26] <factoryjoe>
they're not up
- [05:10:28] <tantek>
and then whimper
- [05:10:40] <factoryjoe>
web apps rarely achieve a bang though in the first place
- [05:10:44] <factoryjoe>
at least not yet
- [05:10:49] <tantek>
but they iterate *fast*
- [05:10:52] <tantek>
unlike native apps
- [05:11:04] <factoryjoe>
mm
- [05:11:09] <factoryjoe>
well webkit apps are html-based
- [05:11:09] <tantek>
and without the user having to constantly download/update crap
- [05:11:13] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [05:11:15] <factoryjoe>
still
- [05:11:16] <tantek>
yep
- [05:11:20] <tantek>
that seals it for the 90/10
- [05:11:23] <tantek>
less hassle
- [05:11:25] <factoryjoe>
it's an experiment
- [05:11:28] <tantek>
less maintenance
- [05:11:28] <factoryjoe>
i hear what you're saying
- [05:11:31] <factoryjoe>
but i have mac devs
- [05:11:33] <factoryjoe>
not html devs
- [05:11:40] <factoryjoe>
so unless you have coders @ your disposal
- [05:11:43] <factoryjoe>
i'm going w/ what i've got
- [05:11:54] <factoryjoe>
in fact
- [05:11:59] <tantek>
going with what you've got is good :)
- [05:12:01] <factoryjoe>
you can go download the hresume wordpress plugin
- [05:12:05] <factoryjoe>
and tweak the UI yourself
- [05:12:09] <factoryjoe>
we're building off of that
- [05:12:11] <tantek>
just don't be under any impression that native apps are better
- [05:12:14] <tantek>
for this kind of thing
- [05:12:20] <tantek>
realize they are a compromise
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- [05:12:34] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
- [05:13:12] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [05:13:29] <factoryjoe>
well until i can drag and drop photos in a webapp from my desktop and have it just "work" i think there's reasons to go native
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- [05:13:59] <tantek>
factoryjoe, I believe you can make that work in IE6 ;)
- [05:14:15] <factoryjoe>
right, as soon as i can afford an intel-based mac, i'll get right on that
- [05:14:16] <factoryjoe>
:P
- [05:14:40] <tantek>
i hear those macbooks are quite reasonable
- [05:15:38] <factoryjoe>
they are, they are
- [05:15:44] <tantek>
i'm still waiting to get my iBookG4 back from depot
- [05:15:45] <factoryjoe>
but not when i just bout two apple displays
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- [05:49:04] <factoryjoe>
tantek: go whoop some ass: http://www.seomoz.org/blogdetail.php?ID=1282
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- [05:52:10] <tantek>
factoryjoe, looks like you took care of it :)
- [05:55:59] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8169 * Vmarks * (+1451) Draft Specification -
- [05:59:10] <tantek>
it's not really a specification right?
- [05:59:56] <factoryjoe>
)
- [06:00:03] <factoryjoe>
what;s not?
- [06:00:14] <tantek>
resume.app
- [06:01:47] <factoryjoe>
ah
- [06:01:58] <factoryjoe>
well i would have put it under /tools/resume.app
- [06:02:05] <factoryjoe>
but the wiki doesn't support directories
- [06:02:20] <tantek>
no need for directories
- [06:02:23] <factoryjoe>
i don't mind having it moved
- [06:02:27] <factoryjoe>
i didn't know where else to put it
- [06:02:31] <factoryjoe>
oh, and one more thing
- [06:02:34] <tantek>
premature hierarchy is the cause of lots of excessive complexity
- [06:02:44] <tantek>
i wasn't complaining about "where to put it"
- [06:02:52] <tantek>
check the headings on the page
- [06:02:52] <factoryjoe>
i think that the more client apps that support mFs (both as data stores and as producers) is a good thing
- [06:03:00] <tantek>
well yes of course
- [06:03:00] <factoryjoe>
ah
- [06:03:15] <factoryjoe>
"premature hierarchy" as in the current document structure?
- [06:03:37] <tantek>
e.g. are you reading the mfbot traffic in the channel?
- [06:03:53] <factoryjoe>
ah ha
- [06:04:05] <tantek>
mfbot is worth listening to
- [06:04:14] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [06:05:07] <tantek>
premature hierarchy as in thinking of putting something in a "tools" directory instead of just putting it right there at the top
- [06:05:11] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8170 * Chris Messina * (+18) Moved victor's description
- [06:10:39] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
- [06:11:07] <factoryjoe>
hi vmarks, meet tantek
- [06:12:33] <vmarks>
hi tantek!
- [06:12:37] <tantek>
hello
- [06:13:06] <factoryjoe>
so vmarks is helping out with resume.app
- [06:13:16] <factoryjoe>
we're just fumbling through spec'ing it out right now
- [06:13:32] <factoryjoe>
but the idea was raised and he had a bunch of ideas
- [06:13:39] <factoryjoe>
so we're going to see how far we can get
- [06:13:47] <tantek>
cool. wikis are good for writing that stuff down and letting it bake.
- [06:16:50] <factoryjoe>
yeah, we'll see how this unfolds
- [06:17:00] <factoryjoe>
i've not seen a mF-powered application developed yet
- [06:17:21] <factoryjoe>
i love the idea of being able to load either remote or local URLs and having the app be able to extract the hresume data
- [06:17:29] <vmarks>
seems to be a good fit here.
- [06:18:32] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8171 * Vmarks * (+94) Draft Specification -
- [06:19:00] * vmarks just added remote URLs to the list is all.
- [06:19:17] <KevinMarks>
factoryjoe: talking of app support: http://trac.macosforge.org/projects/collaboration/ticket/19
- [06:19:49] <KevinMarks>
I need to upgrade to Tiger and Python 2.4 to test it
- [06:19:58] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8172 * Chris Messina * (+412)
- [06:19:58] <KevinMarks>
but ti is in python+twisted
- [06:20:10] * factoryjoe goes to look
- [06:20:24] <factoryjoe>
who is wsanchez@apple.com?
- [06:20:33] <vmarks>
wilfredo.
- [06:20:51] <vmarks>
I believe that's the fella most familiar with apple's use of the mach kernel.
- [06:21:16] <factoryjoe>
heh "type changed from Defect to Feature."
- [06:21:20] <factoryjoe>
huh nice
- [06:21:47] <KevinMarks>
it's their OSS CalDAV app
- [06:22:02] <KevinMarks>
had a nice chat with wifredo about hCalendar yesterday
- [06:22:38] <factoryjoe>
oh?>
- [06:22:41] <factoryjoe>
excellent!
- [06:22:42] <factoryjoe>
so!!
- [06:22:51] <factoryjoe>
they have this RSS framework in leopard
- [06:23:00] <factoryjoe>
heck, that's where we need to get support for microformats
- [06:23:05] <factoryjoe>
in the CORE os
- [06:23:32] <KevinMarks>
oh god, another one?
- [06:23:38] <KevinMarks>
they had 3 in iTunes alone
- [06:23:45] <factoryjoe>
3 rss frameworks?
- [06:23:56] <KevinMarks>
yes
- [06:24:06] <factoryjoe>
wtf
- [06:26:02] <KevinMarks>
remember what tantek was just saying about app software?
- [06:26:22] <factoryjoe>
ah
- [06:27:42] <KevinMarks>
http://www.valleywag.com/tech/web2ooh/web-two-point-ooh-ladies-round-194762.php - tara wins the t-shirt competition
- [06:28:50] <tantek>
heh
- [06:29:21] <factoryjoe>
no kiddin
- [06:30:20] <KevinMarks>
do we need to send all the others microformat t-shirts to even things out?
- [06:30:56] <tantek>
I just gave one to Micki a few days ago
- [06:31:47] <KevinMarks>
didn't valerie get one too?
- [06:32:04] <tantek>
not sure
- [06:32:16] <tantek>
i may have given her one - i lose track
- [06:37:21] <factoryjoe>
heh
- [06:37:22] <factoryjoe>
http://halr9000.com/article/322
- [06:37:26] <factoryjoe>
need some guns boys
- [06:37:28] <factoryjoe>
back me up
- [06:37:31] <factoryjoe>
i'm goin in
- [06:42:47] <tantek>
factoryjoe, the key is
- [06:43:07] <tantek>
that users shouldn't have to worry about import/export
- [06:43:18] <tantek>
and the Web is the dominant publishing and storage medium
- [06:43:25] <factoryjoe>
yep
- [06:44:24] * valmont (n=chrishol@pdpc/supporter/silver/valmont) Quit ()
- [06:44:34] <tantek>
user data should be stored in a user friendly format
- [06:45:00] <tantek>
not in some intermediate machine friendly format which the user the has to transform in order to view/manipulate/publish
- [06:45:04] <tantek>
/share
- [06:45:18] <tantek>
user centered design is the key here
- [06:45:23] <factoryjoe>
do you mind if i borrow from that?
- [06:45:29] <factoryjoe>
i think he makes a good point in some ways
- [06:45:32] <factoryjoe>
from a design perspective
- [06:45:40] <factoryjoe>
the xml is tighter than the xhtml
- [06:45:49] <tantek>
tighter along what axis?
- [06:45:59] <factoryjoe>
less bulk
- [06:46:17] <factoryjoe>
w/ xhtml, visually, you have to ignore the divs and spans to read it
- [06:46:30] <factoryjoe>
w/ xmpp
- [06:46:31] <tantek>
but that's what makes it maximally portable
- [06:46:36] <factoryjoe>
i know
- [06:46:41] <factoryjoe>
so you have to be careful as well though
- [06:46:43] <tantek>
you end up sacrificing portability for a few percentage of bytes
- [06:46:45] <tantek>
big mistake
- [06:46:49] <factoryjoe>
anh
- [06:46:52] <factoryjoe>
it's not just bytes
- [06:46:54] <factoryjoe>
it's readability
- [06:47:01] <tantek>
totally premature optimization
- [06:47:02] <tantek>
nope
- [06:47:03] <factoryjoe>
my mom could understand the xmpp better than the xhtml
- [06:47:06] <tantek>
xhtml is more readable
- [06:47:08] <tantek>
for more people
- [06:47:09] <tantek>
than xml
- [06:47:21] <tantek>
no chance factoryjoe
- [06:47:28] <factoryjoe>
i think you're presuming a certain level of education and experience
- [06:47:30] <tantek>
web designers can read and *write* xhtml
- [06:47:37] <tantek>
far more than xml
- [06:47:38] <factoryjoe>
they can also read/write xml
- [06:47:44] <tantek>
not true
- [06:47:46] <factoryjoe>
it jsut won't be useful xml
- [06:47:48] <factoryjoe>
totally true!
- [06:47:56] <tantek>
random xml yes
- [06:48:02] <tantek>
but not anything that is interoperable
- [06:48:03] <factoryjoe>
<tantek>bollocks</tantek>
- [06:48:04] <tantek>
that's the point
- [06:48:05] <factoryjoe>
look, i wrote xml
- [06:48:08] <factoryjoe>
yep
- [06:48:13] <factoryjoe>
you have to be careful
- [06:48:21] <factoryjoe>
as a non-developer touting the microformats gospel
- [06:48:29] <factoryjoe>
i get made fun of enough to know the anti-arguments
- [06:48:40] <tantek>
there are more non-developers than developers
- [06:48:46] <tantek>
1000x more web authors
- [06:48:49] <tantek>
than web developers
- [06:49:01] <factoryjoe>
100000000x non web developers or developers
- [06:49:04] <tantek>
the mistakes in that article start at the very beginning
- [06:49:04] <factoryjoe>
think about it
- [06:49:09] <tantek>
e.g.
- [06:49:14] <tantek>
look at the new names they invented
- [06:49:18] <tantek>
EXTADD ?
- [06:49:23] <tantek>
PCODE ?
- [06:49:25] <tantek>
CTRY ?
- [06:49:36] <factoryjoe>
the number of people who *make* car to the number of drivers is about equal to the ratio of people who dev the web vs those who surf it
- [06:49:38] <tantek>
this is the classic problem with XML culture
- [06:49:44] <factoryjoe>
yeah, it's crap
- [06:49:48] <tantek>
they don't get how big of a problem it is that they invent their own names for stuff
- [06:49:49] <factoryjoe>
just like the google calendar API
- [06:49:52] <tantek>
and result in incompatibility
- [06:49:55] <tantek>
and non-interoperability
- [06:49:58] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [06:50:09] <tantek>
no, car analogy is false
- [06:50:18] <tantek>
better analogy is people that write letters
- [06:50:34] <tantek>
the skill required to write/publish HTML is trivial compared to building a car
- [06:51:11] <tantek>
you have to accept that in the shortterm there will be lots of transitional XML formats
- [06:51:16] <tantek>
that have little spurts of adoption
- [06:51:20] <tantek>
and then die off
- [06:51:21] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [06:51:27] <tantek>
don't worry too much about that
- [06:51:31] <factoryjoe>
what makes you think MF will last?
- [06:51:36] <tantek>
focus instead of helping develop the microformat alternatives
- [06:51:40] <tantek>
which will be longer lasting
- [06:51:47] <tantek>
because they will be understood and reused by many more
- [06:51:56] <factoryjoe>
that's the bet i'm making
- [06:52:01] <factoryjoe>
i feel like luke skywalker
- [06:52:01] <tantek>
because microformats do a much better job at reusing names
- [06:52:03] <factoryjoe>
ha!
- [06:52:08] <factoryjoe>
yes, obie wan
- [06:52:11] <tantek>
as simple as picking "extended-address" instead of EXTADD
- [06:52:13] <factoryjoe>
you have taught me well master
- [06:52:21] <tantek>
really, the XML crowd can't help but make the dumbest renaming mistakes
- [06:52:26] <tantek>
it's the nature of XML culture
- [06:52:31] <tantek>
to invent new names for no good reason
- [06:52:36] <factoryjoe>
it's the nature of the dark side
- [06:52:43] <tantek>
no, just NIH side
- [06:52:50] <factoryjoe>
NIH/
- [06:52:51] <tantek>
they're not doing it out of any dark intent
- [06:52:51] <factoryjoe>
?
- [06:52:57] <tantek>
?def NIH
- [06:52:57] <jibot>
NIH is Not Invented Here and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_Invented_Here and also the National Instututes of Health
- [06:53:00] <factoryjoe>
ah ha
- [06:53:20] <tantek>
reread this factoryjoe: http://microformats.org/wiki/naming-principles
- [06:54:18] <tantek>
and this: http://microformats.org/wiki/plain-old-xml-considered-harmful
- [06:54:58] <factoryjoe>
i think that this is pretty powerful "XML elements are limited to one "name" and thus semantic, whereas the class attribute is a space separated set of names and can thus capture multiple semantics, providing a much more flexible semantic structure for authors, and greatly aiding in following DRY."
- [06:55:38] <tantek>
yes, that is a pretty big one
- [06:55:57] <tantek>
XML essentially forces you to prefer the hierarchy of the markup to the actual semantics of the content
- [06:56:01] <tantek>
which is of course backwards
- [06:56:06] <tantek>
the semantics of the content should come first
- [06:56:12] <tantek>
and the markup should adapt to it
- [06:56:17] <tantek>
not vice versa
- [06:57:07] <factoryjoe>
yeah
- [06:57:10] <mfbot>
[[hresume]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hresume&diff=0&oldid=8173 * Steve Ganz * (+0) Reverted edit of Duck1123, changed back to last version by Kelly Chambers
- [06:57:30] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) has joined #microformats
- [06:57:30] <factoryjoe>
another: http://volition.vee.net/archives/000670.html
- [06:58:22] <KevinMarks>
that is a very powerful one
- [06:58:53] <KevinMarks>
in xml, the attribute/child split is also arbitrary
- [06:59:09] <tantek>
Kevinmarks, sort of
- [06:59:12] <tantek>
but that's kind of a strawman
- [06:59:27] <KevinMarks>
in microfromats, it is a distinction between human-led and machine-led
- [06:59:34] <tantek>
since most who design XML languages have design principles that are used for element vs. attribute
- [07:00:13] * tantek just noticed someone snuck a Ligers reference into hResume. Heh.
- [07:01:01] <factoryjoe>
;)
- [07:01:11] <factoryjoe>
in fact, *reverted* to the ligers reference
- [07:01:21] <KevinMarks>
I think 'most' is pushing it
- [07:03:44] <tantek>
KevinMarks, perhaps I'm being a bit charitable there. But I prefer to do that rather than depend on a strawman.
- [07:03:56] <factoryjoe>
tantek: http://halr9000.com/article/322#comment-2332
- [07:05:32] <KevinMarks>
I was basing that on observation - it becomes one more damn thing peopel quibble over, but if there are good principled docs to read
- [07:05:48] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-62-167-38-123.adslplus.ch) has joined #microformats
- [07:05:54] <factoryjoe>
"Cool, that also means that there is no need to use microformats in the file format that the client uses for storing the raw log files on disk, it makes far more sense in a the jabber world to use a defined xml format that is far more easier to process and extend cleanly in future than a microformat.
- [07:05:55] <factoryjoe>
although there is also the argument that you could just use xslt to transform the log file into html and that could even be done in the browser, it works fine in IE, i would expect that firefox would be fine too."
- [07:06:25] <tantek>
ah, the obsolete dual desktop browser thinking
- [07:06:27] <tantek>
sad
- [07:06:35] <tantek>
someone get those folks a blackberry/sidekick/treo stat!
- [07:06:58] <factoryjoe>
no joke
- [07:07:24] <tantek>
KevinMarks, re: principled docs, ahem, here are a few simple notes that address the element/attribute issue: http://tantek.com/log/2004/07.html#d27t1049
- [07:10:18] <tantek>
factoryjoe, that same "treatment" is necessary for all the "we only design for AJAX capable browsers" folks.
- [07:10:31] <factoryjoe>
agreed
- [07:10:42] <tantek>
because, of course, you wouldn't want those high income bracket folks using their devices to browser your site and do ecommerce right?
- [07:10:42] <KevinMarks>
someone in another chat said they had hired a web designer who only knew CSS, and had never learned table-based layout
- [07:10:59] <tantek>
Kevinmarks, that is more the norm these days than not
- [07:11:07] <tantek>
As long as the person has 5 or less years of experience
- [07:11:10] <tantek>
that's the key.
- [07:12:40] <factoryjoe>
KevinMarks: that was in the sykpe barcamp channel
- [07:12:46] <factoryjoe>
crystal from raincity
- [07:12:50] <KevinMarks>
right
- [07:13:03] <KevinMarks>
just before skype took over 75% of my cpu and I had to kill it
- [07:13:05] <tantek>
their numbers are growing
- [07:13:21] <tantek>
the table based designer is a dying breed
- [07:13:26] <factoryjoe>
yes
- [07:14:12] <bunnywabbit_>
tantek: what were you pinging me about?
- [07:14:22] <tantek>
i wasn't
- [07:14:26] <tantek>
i ponged you ;)
- [07:16:58] <bunnywabbit_>
ah
- [07:17:00] <bunnywabbit_>
then
- [07:17:09] <bunnywabbit_>
what were you ponging me about weeks back?
- [07:17:10] <bunnywabbit_>
oh
- [07:17:15] <bunnywabbit_>
in response to a ping of mine?
- [07:17:28] * tantek watches the wheels turn. ;)
- [07:17:34] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
- [07:17:34] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [07:17:45] <factoryjoe>
heya drewinthehead
- [07:18:19] <KevinMarks>
well, tantek, your example is the microformat rationale
- [07:18:51] <tantek>
no it is generic to XML
- [07:19:05] <tantek>
but yes, common to microformats methodology as well
- [07:26:16] <drewinthehead>
hey factoryjoe, guys
- [07:26:40] <tantek>
hey drew
- [07:27:14] <factoryjoe>
btw: http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2006/08/16/linuxworld-2006-no-kids-allowed/
- [07:27:58] <tantek>
hahaha
- [07:28:03] <drewinthehead>
that sucks
- [07:28:24] * tantek snuck into 18 yr and up computer conferences when he was 13.
- [07:29:11] <drewinthehead>
MacExpo in London welcomes kids ... our small person is excellent at collecting schwag
- [07:30:18] <tantek>
that's what the Radio Flyer is for right?
- [07:32:23] <KevinMarks>
I spent half the summer at computer exhibition centres in London when I was 12
- [07:32:42] <KevinMarks>
until I got my own computer
- [07:34:47] * vant (n=vant@FLH1Abe103.isk.mesh.ad.jp) has joined #microformats
- [07:55:44] <drewinthehead>
tantek, KevinMarks: just been looking at your "can your website be your API" slides, which seems to be an entry-level exploration of microformats. did you guys ever write anything more about this concept of your website being your API?
- [07:56:13] <tantek>
Others have picked up the ball drew
- [07:56:31] <drewinthehead>
it's a really great concept in terms of communicating the benefits, i think
- [07:56:32] <tantek>
there are a few posts that say things like do microformats make feeds and web APIs obsolete
- [07:56:39] <drewinthehead>
ok, i'll keep searching :)
- [07:56:46] <tantek>
drew, you should totally feel free to run with it
- [07:56:56] <tantek>
if you think you can use any of that approach to help people understand
- [07:56:58] <KevinMarks>
http://microformats.org/wiki/rest has some stuff along that line
- [07:57:03] <KevinMarks>
but yes, do build on it
- [07:57:09] <drewinthehead>
i've been asked a couple of times to give some presentations, so i'm brainstorming
- [07:57:42] * brianoberkirch (n=brianobe@adsl-065-005-209-171.sip.msy.bellsouth.net) Quit ()
- [07:57:48] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8174 * 234qwe * (+19163) Specifications -
- [07:58:29] <mfbot>
[[Main Page]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Main_Page&diff=0&oldid=8175 * Tantek * (-19163) Reverted edit of 234qwe, changed back to last version by ChrisCasciano
- [07:58:35] <mfbot>
[[Special:Log/block]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Special:Log/block&diff=0&oldid=0 * Tantek * (+0) blocked "User:234qwe" with an expiry time of infinite: spam
- [07:59:25] <drewinthehead>
i think there are lots of good real-world examples now of where API functionality is duplicated by microformatted content (flickr contacts, upcoming.org events, etc) that make nice demonstrations of the usefulness ... at least to audiences who totally grok APIs
- [07:59:40] <tantek>
or, the other way around
- [07:59:47] <tantek>
it is much easier often to just add a few microformats
- [08:00:00] <tantek>
than to design, build, and support a whole parallel API infrastructure
- [08:00:06] <drewinthehead>
exactly
- [08:00:16] <tantek>
if microformats can get you 80% of the API you need, then why not start with that?
- [08:00:27] <drewinthehead>
which i think is what the current examples where microformats have been retrofitted demonstrate
- [08:00:29] <tantek>
and then only add APIs for the other stuff which your developers ask for?
- [08:00:43] <tantek>
which you usually won't be able to predict until you first do the "obvious" 80%.
- [08:00:48] <drewinthehead>
yes, that's where i'm going :)
- [08:04:05] <drewinthehead>
awesome, well that's one strong idea
- [08:05:26] <drewinthehead>
i'm working on a development of my fill-out-form-details-from-your-hcard experiments for BarCampLondon
- [08:06:07] <drewinthehead>
trying to focus on *using* the data once it's there, as a way of encouraging people to put it there in the first place
- [08:06:45] <KevinMarks>
excellent
- [08:08:01] <tantek>
drew, that's precisely the right approach
- [08:08:10] <tantek>
plus step one, you'll be able to leverage all the Y! Local goodness.
- [08:09:14] <drewinthehead>
Y! Local isn't let an attractive example to UK audiences, unfortunately. I wish the UK developers and Y! would pull their fingers out. oh.. wait ;)
- [08:09:48] <drewinthehead>
i think we're getting Local here soon :)
- [08:10:16] <tantek>
sweeeeeeet
- [08:28:08] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) has joined #microformats
- [08:28:08] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [08:29:13] <drewinthehead>
mornin' Phae
- [08:29:16] <Phae>
Drifters are not breakfast food.
- [08:29:19] <Phae>
Morning.
- [08:29:56] * factoryjoe (n=cmessina@dsl081-246-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
- [08:30:07] <drewinthehead>
the soul group?
- [08:30:32] <Phae>
The chocolate variety.
- [08:30:48] <drewinthehead>
ah, ok ;)
- [08:31:37] <Phae>
I ended up getting nothing done last night except grab the latest MFPG build
- [08:31:45] <Phae>
I fell asleep at 7pm, woke up again at midnight :/
- [08:31:48] <tantek>
MFPG?
- [08:32:01] <tantek>
?def MFPG
- [08:32:01] <jibot>
Nobody has defined MFPG yet
- [08:32:32] <Phae>
microformats playground
- [08:32:48] * Phae is making up acronyms.
- [08:32:53] <tantek>
?def MFPG is the microformats playground.
- [08:32:54] <jibot>
MFPG is the microformats playground.
- [08:32:57] <Phae>
:)
- [08:33:59] <drewinthehead>
sometimes sleep is the most productive use of time
- [08:34:12] <drewinthehead>
you just have to look at the slightly bigger picture :)
- [08:34:44] <Phae>
I suppose. I only lay down for a quick rest, so I could get on with something productive.
- [08:34:47] <Phae>
Oh well. :)
- [08:35:27] <drewinthehead>
we were just talking about REST as it happens
- [08:35:33] <Phae>
heh
- [08:36:22] <drewinthehead>
is the MFPG anywhere visible, or is it all under wraps still?
- [08:36:49] <Phae>
It's all wrapped up.
- [08:39:08] <drewinthehead>
booo ;)
- [08:40:15] <Phae>
heh
- [08:40:31] <Phae>
I'll harrass Robert as soon as I tweak the main stylesheet to not look so broken
- [08:44:12] <drewinthehead>
cool, as long as you guys don't think the effectiveness will be reduced by releasing too early, you should release as early as you can (if that makes any sense)
- [08:44:24] <Phae>
aye
- [08:44:45] <Phae>
I'll sort it out tonight.
- [09:05:18] <Phae>
Gotta go. meetings :(
- [09:05:19] * Phae (n=Chatuser@212.2.31.157) Quit ("Leaving")
- [09:07:20] <tantek>
Gotta go. Sleep. :/
- [09:09:38] <drewinthehead>
sleep well!
- [09:25:51] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [11:18:08] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [11:18:23] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [11:18:24] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [11:18:32] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) Quit (Client Quit)
- [11:19:28] <McNulty>
afternoon
- [11:22:18] <drewinthehead>
afternoon McNulty
- [11:25:26] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
- [11:25:26] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [12:10:42] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
- [12:10:42] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [12:10:48] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
- [12:10:48] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [12:30:34] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@nat-fw.london.corp.yahoo.com) has joined #microformats
- [12:30:34] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [12:31:39] <trovster>
drewinthehead: Heard of a flash on a camera?
- [12:32:02] <drewinthehead>
eh?
- [12:32:43] <trovster>
The photos on your Flickr account
- [12:33:40] <drewinthehead>
ah yeah. dark pub. you either go for under-exposed, or bright bright bright and piss everyone off
- [12:33:51] <drewinthehead>
or get a nice DSLR with a fast lens
- [12:34:31] <drewinthehead>
i don't mean fast. but, yeah, better than my little compact digital.
- [12:38:05] <trovster>
drewinthehead: Fancy quickly looking through a presentation for me?
- [12:38:11] <drewinthehead>
sure
- [12:39:41] <trovster>
You get pm's?
- [12:41:26] <drewinthehead>
i got one
- [12:41:28] <drewinthehead>
url
- [12:57:41] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has joined #microformats
- [12:57:41] <jibot>
McNulty is Ciaran McNulty (http://ciaranmcnulty.com)
- [13:04:01] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC92183B.ipt.aol.com) has joined #microformats
- [13:04:01] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [13:05:16] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
- [13:06:06] <drewinthehead>
good meetings?
- [13:08:25] <Phae>
yawn
- [13:08:36] * McNulty had a 'meeting' in the pub
- [13:08:52] <drewinthehead>
a meeting of beer and mouth
- [13:09:05] <McNulty>
a meeting of burger and chips, too
- [13:10:37] <Phae>
I was just at them to listen in
- [13:11:19] <Phae>
We have a big project about to begin
- [13:11:29] <Phae>
and they actually want double-A for once
- [13:11:34] <Phae>
so I had to go and flag any issues I saw
- [13:12:14] * Phae mutters about .NET
- [13:12:55] <drewinthehead>
i think projects should have real flags. ones you can pick up and wave in the middle of the office or in a meeting.
- [13:13:34] <Phae>
yeah
- [13:13:40] <Phae>
I hate that phrase "flag any concerns"
- [13:13:44] <Phae>
but I use it anyway now
- [13:15:03] <qid>
Phae: double-A? accessibility compliance?
- [13:15:13] * Phae nods.
- [13:15:24] <Phae>
Its something that I do on my project anyway
- [13:15:33] <Phae>
but we have the issue of out dated ASP.NET development here
- [13:15:58] <qid>
yeah
- [13:16:20] <qid>
I did some work with ASP.NET/C# fairly recently
- [13:16:36] * Phae nods
- [13:16:40] <qid>
version 1.1 or something, not 2.0, so maybe they fixed a bunch of the problems in 2.0, but I doubt it
- [13:16:41] <Phae>
It's actually C# on this project
- [13:17:04] <Phae>
Wel,l tehy're finally going to roll out 2005, even though Ive been complaining about it for 6 months
- [13:17:09] <qid>
.NET tries to pretend the web is an event-based desktop application
- [13:17:25] <qid>
which is a really bad abstraction that leaks all over the place
- [13:17:51] <Phae>
My concern is from the markup point of view, since it spits out html 4 transitional
- [13:17:54] <qid>
and the result is you get HTML that looks like garbage
- [13:18:16] <Phae>
anyway
- [13:18:22] <qid>
actually I think it was always spitting out XHTML for me and I couldn't get it to use HTML
- [13:18:28] <Phae>
so the developers over there *gestures to the dark side of the room* are going strict
- [13:18:32] <Phae>
and I'm going to be watching that
- [13:21:18] <drewinthehead>
they'll be strict, but bets are that Phae will be stricter.
- [13:21:23] * Phae grins.
- [13:21:43] <Phae>
I've got to get their pages comlient too of course, so i'll be cracking my whip no doubt
- [13:22:21] * briansuda (n=briansud@AC92183B.ipt.aol.com) Quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
- [13:22:33] <drewinthehead>
on a different note to whips and stuff ... ;) ... does anyone know how the mf logo is licensed?
- [13:22:56] * drewinthehead has vague recollections of this being discussed
- [13:23:15] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
- [13:23:15] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
- [13:23:40] <Phae>
I thought it all went on the wiki?
- [13:23:55] <Phae>
Although, there was a long drawn out mailing list convo about it, and I dno't recall the resolution.
- [13:24:53] <qid>
I thought it was creative commons
- [13:25:16] <Phae>
Yeah, but which specific one?
- [13:25:24] <qid>
but there was definitely something on the mailing list that would answer the question
- [13:25:24] <Phae>
I'm pretty sure it's free use though
- [13:27:43] <Phae>
http://labs.commerce.net/~rohit/5f-logo.html
- [13:28:25] <drewinthehead>
thanks
- [13:28:46] <drewinthehead>
hmm 404 ... does that work where you are?
- [13:29:05] * drewinthehead suspects an evil Y!-blocking plan ;)
- [13:29:20] <trovster>
404 here to
- [13:29:27] <Phae>
http://microformats.org/wiki/buttons
- [13:29:31] <Phae>
Last link on that page?
- [13:30:18] <trovster>
http://labs.commerce.net/~rohit/%C2%B5f-logo.html
- [13:30:35] <trovster>
But that's not the logo license.
- [13:31:03] <Phae>
no, but it's the logo and free use
- [13:31:11] <Phae>
I just posted it cuz it was the only ref I'd seen
- [13:31:12] <McNulty>
http://labs.commerce.net/%7Erohit/%C2%B5f-logo.html works for me
- [13:32:05] * McNulty (n=ciaran@nat-195.157.130.53.maximalls.net) has left #microformats
- [13:35:34] <drewinthehead>
thanks guys.
- [13:46:50] <Phae>
If you find out drew, will you put it on the wiki or list? I'd quite like to use the logo.
- [13:49:17] <drewinthehead>
yes, i shall indeed
- [13:56:24] <Phae>
OT, but form highlighting. Should be unobtrusive javascript, eh?
- [13:56:46] <trovster>
And serverside.
- [13:57:05] <Phae>
http://kalsey.com/2006/07/highlighting_form_fields_with_unobtrusive_javascript/
- [13:58:16] <trovster>
input:focus {} ?
- [13:58:59] <Phae>
not in IE
- [13:59:03] <drewinthehead>
isn't browser support for the focus pseudo-class poor, trovster?
- [13:59:14] <Phae>
very
- [13:59:15] <Phae>
brb though
- [13:59:57] <trovster>
personally, I would only have one classes, for the focused element...
- [14:00:00] <drewinthehead>
i wrote almost this exact script two days ago for clearing and re-populating default values onfocus and onblur
- [14:00:31] <drewinthehead>
yes, it's trampling over the className a little
- [14:00:46] <drewinthehead>
it should be adding and subtracting, not overwriting
- [14:01:09] <trovster>
I might add that little functionality, but it shouldn't be as long as that, surely.
- [14:01:26] <trovster>
this.className = 'highlightActiveField'; is bad too, as it can overwrite
- [14:03:06] <drewinthehead>
there should be a tiny drop in library for dealing with classes
- [14:03:11] * briansuda (n=briansud@h-68-166-252-239.chcgilgm.covad.net) has joined #microformats
- [14:03:11] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
- [14:03:11] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [14:03:26] <drewinthehead>
getElementsByClassName(), addClass(), hasClass(), removeClass()
- [14:03:48] <trovster>
Yes :D
- [14:03:57] <drewinthehead>
it may exist
- [14:04:03] <drewinthehead>
but i'd like that
- [14:07:06] <drewinthehead>
maybe getElementsBySelector() too, although i've never used that
- [14:07:30] <drewinthehead>
actually, no, that's out of scope
- [14:08:30] <trovster>
http://paste.css-standards.org/1891 -- how about that?
- [14:11:23] <drewinthehead>
table_array ?
- [14:12:07] <drewinthehead>
but yes, that's more the sort of thing :)
- [14:12:07] <trovster>
Yeh...?
- [14:12:22] <drewinthehead>
var table_array = document.getElementsByTagName('form');
- [14:12:27] <Phae>
right ok
- [14:12:31] <trovster>
Yeh?
- [14:12:34] <Phae>
what
- [14:12:44] <drewinthehead>
thats a collection of form elements
- [14:12:49] <drewinthehead>
not an array and not tables
- [14:13:08] <trovster>
heh, I put in table for some reason when I did it first, oop
- [14:13:30] <trovster>
sorted
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- [14:14:12] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
- [14:14:17] <Phae>
So, is that JS I linked to terrible? I'm just looking for a nice safe way to add visual clues to the location in a form
- [14:14:37] <drewinthehead>
no, it's not at all terrible, Phae. we're being anal.
- [14:14:40] <trovster>
Feel free to use what I pasted, you'll need a few other functions
- [14:14:46] <trovster>
It's not good, though
- [14:14:55] <drewinthehead>
it's ok, in isolation.
- [14:14:56] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
- [14:15:07] <Phae>
what's wrong with it?
- [14:15:10] * Phae is always keen to learn.
- [14:15:16] <drewinthehead>
the issue is mainly if you have multiple classes on the elemnts
- [14:15:23] <trovster>
Phae: read the comments
- [14:15:49] <Phae>
If the textbox already has a class, your method overwrites it.
- [14:15:50] <Phae>
ah
- [14:15:55] <trovster>
And the overwriting events, which I use blur() for validation
- [14:16:00] <drewinthehead>
class is a space-delimited list of values, as we know :) and this script does className='blah' which would overwrite everything else
- [14:16:08] <Phae>
okay
- [14:16:08] <drewinthehead>
right
- [14:16:09] <drewinthehead>
:)
- [14:16:24] <trovster>
Also, his doesn't do textarea {}
- [14:16:46] <trovster>
Infact, only does type="text" and type="password" ...
- [14:17:06] <Phae>
ok
- [14:17:22] <drewinthehead>
it'd be better if it looked for a class name
- [14:17:24] <Phae>
That'll probably be a real pain then, since the forms we work with are usually long and multiple types.
- [14:17:27] <Phae>
yeah
- [14:17:31] <Phae>
that would be better
- [14:17:35] <drewinthehead>
so you just apply a class to anythign you want highlighted onfocus
- [14:17:53] <trovster>
But surely you'll want every form element to do that?
- [14:17:59] <Phae>
argh
- [14:18:01] <Phae>
another meeting :<
- [14:18:01] <Phae>
brb
- [14:18:38] <drewinthehead>
not radio buttons, trovster
- [14:18:43] <drewinthehead>
or submit buttons ..
- [14:18:45] <drewinthehead>
or .. :)
- [14:18:59] <trovster>
drewinthehead: Why not?
- [14:19:11] <trovster>
getElementsByClassName(document,'&','fixmyfocus'); -- there you go ;) loop through that collection instead
- [14:20:13] <drewinthehead>
what's the & ?
- [14:20:18] * pecus (n=pecus@194.65.5.235) Quit ()
- [14:21:30] <trovster>
Ooops, supposed to be *
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- [14:29:28] <trovster>
I need to tweak my JS validation script a little more :(
- [14:29:33] * briansuda_ is now known as briansuda
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- [14:38:44] <drewinthehead>
so a mini library for just dealing with className would be handy, if i can't find anything
- [14:38:52] <drewinthehead>
shouldn't take long to assemble, either
- [14:39:10] <drewinthehead>
most of the work is probably in minimizing effectively
- [14:41:36] <trovster>
addClass(), hasClass(), removeClass() ?
- [14:42:46] <drewinthehead>
yeah
- [14:43:20] <drewinthehead>
or should they be addClassName() ... ?
- [14:43:55] <trovster>
Have you need seen them?
- [14:44:30] <trovster>
addRel() :)
- [14:45:10] <Phae>
man
- [14:46:19] <drewinthehead>
hasRel() would be good for mf stuff
- [14:46:28] <trovster>
;)
- [14:46:53] <trovster>
I just copied the hasClass, addClas and changed to rel :D
- [14:47:02] * drewinthehead has a meeting now ... a vidconf no less
- [14:51:08] <Phae>
paul should never be allowed holiday
- [14:51:12] <Phae>
i have to go to too many meetings
- [14:52:19] <tantek>
greetings
- [14:52:25] <tantek>
the microformats logo is a "community mark"
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- [15:10:18] <mfbot>
[[Resume.app]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=Resume.app&diff=0&oldid=8176 * Vmarks * (+91) Functional Requirements -
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- [15:33:56] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end developer at RD2, Inc.
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- [17:21:22] <jibot>
remi is Remi Prevost, a web developper (yeah, that's how we spell "developer" in french) from Quebec and blogs about web stuff at <http://remiprevost.com/>
- [17:32:42] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit ()
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- [17:54:35] <jibot>
Phae is Frances Berriman of http://www.fberriman.com/
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- [18:02:55] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
- [18:02:55] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [18:03:28] * Jonnay (n=jonny@d199-126-185-156.abhsia.telus.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [18:03:50] <Phae>
Scott
- [18:04:06] <sreynen>
yes
- [18:04:13] <Phae>
Ah, you are alive.
- [18:04:21] <sreynen>
just barely
- [18:06:07] <Phae>
I just pm'd you. I assume you're idented.
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- [19:08:53] * stracciatella (n=emmanuel@cm82-143.liwest.at) has joined #microformats
- [19:09:30] <stracciatella>
Hi.
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- [19:58:43] <stracciatella>
Is there a specific reason that XMDP profile documents don't require (or allow) <head profile="http://gmpg.org/xmdp/">?
- [20:00:18] <briansuda>
why would they need that? you only need the profile of the microformat you are using.
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- [20:25:43] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [20:39:02] * whafro (n=alter@65.107.196.194.ptr.us.xo.net) has joined #microformats
- [20:40:08] <whafro>
hey guys, I'm giving a quick talk on microformats tonight ... I'm no expert on them, but this is just a brief primer... anyone available to take a quick glance at my online slides and see if anything is really insanely wrong or should be improved?
- [20:40:54] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [20:40:54] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [20:41:16] <whafro>
http://www.jounce.net/presentations/refreshMicroformats/ if so
- [20:41:43] <tantek>
whafro - add your talk to the events page! http://microformats.org/wiki/events
- [20:42:08] <whafro>
will do
- [20:46:54] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8177 * JacksonWilkinson * (+133) Added event
- [20:47:48] <whafro>
there we go
- [20:56:44] * edsu (n=esummers@66.187.134.52) has joined #microformats
- [20:56:45] <jibot>
edsu is Ed Summers from the Library of Congress <http://www.inkdroid.org>
- [21:01:20] <mfbot>
[[events]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8178 * JacksonWilkinson * (+0)
- [21:03:46] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host81-156-237-58.range81-156.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
- [21:18:48] <tantek>
hey whafro, nice slide background :)
- [21:18:55] <tantek>
s/MicroFormats/microformats
- [21:19:41] <tantek>
hmm.... I have no idea WTF is microframework - haven't heard of it before
- [21:19:44] <tantek>
URL?
- [21:19:58] <tantek>
and what does it have to do with the standard RSS feed icon?
- [21:20:03] <tantek>
(this is on slide 2)
- [21:20:32] <tantek>
on slide 4,
- [21:20:35] <tantek>
s/hRating/hReview
- [21:22:58] <whafro>
I was being cute with titles... the framework will be talking about RDF and such...
- [21:23:06] <tantek>
ah
- [21:23:10] <tantek>
not very micro ;)
- [21:23:15] <whafro>
indeed not ;)
- [21:23:18] <whafro>
that's in my written notes
- [21:23:22] <tantek>
heh
- [21:23:29] <tantek>
overall the presentation looks great
- [21:23:39] <whafro>
yeah... I think Eric Meyer is showing up
- [21:23:44] <whafro>
so I can't suck
- [21:23:56] <tantek>
if you want, you can create a whole page for it on the wiki, and encourage people to add themselves as attendees etc.
- [21:24:08] <tantek>
e.g.
- [21:24:09] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
- [21:24:10] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
- [21:24:34] <tantek>
http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats
- [21:25:08] <whafro>
word, I may just do that...
- [21:25:11] <tantek>
feel free to copy / start with the basic outline at: http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-07-11-an-event-apart-microformats
- [21:25:13] <whafro>
I'll tell them you asked ;-)
- [21:25:19] <tantek>
and do the appropriate search/replace :)
- [21:25:42] <tantek>
plus having a page for the event itself allows people to follow up
- [21:25:49] <tantek>
and post additional questions of the presentation
- [21:25:54] <tantek>
and links to photos etc.
- [21:26:06] <tantek>
if you can, get someone in the audience to help edit the wiki page in real time
- [21:26:12] <tantek>
and capture Q&A as it happens
- [21:26:20] <tantek>
to the page itself
- [21:27:02] <whafro>
we have the refresh forum that we usually use for that kinda thing, but we will have a guy doing photos
- [21:27:23] <tantek>
the wiki is nice because it can present the overall edited/gardened aggregate of everything
- [21:27:32] <tantek>
rather than having forum messages to scroll through etc.
- [21:27:39] <tantek>
plus photos can be integrated right there inline
- [21:27:44] <tantek>
at a minimum you can link to the forum as well
- [21:28:08] <whafro>
righto
- [21:28:12] <whafro>
good points
- [21:30:09] <whafro>
so you use microformats lowercase as branding, or because you don't think it's a proper noun?
- [21:31:47] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8179 * Tantek * (+287) added wordcamp microformats session
- [21:32:09] <tantek>
good questions whafro
- [21:32:20] <tantek>
CamelCase is not very human friendly
- [21:32:23] <tantek>
nor even search engine friendly
- [21:32:26] <tantek>
so it is avoided
- [21:32:36] <tantek>
(CamelCase is largely a geek thing)
- [21:32:40] <whafro>
right
- [21:32:44] <whafro>
how about the initial cap?
- [21:32:58] <tantek>
lowercase because it is a bit of self-referential "micro"-ness
- [21:33:03] <tantek>
and self-deprecation
- [21:33:06] <whafro>
gotcha, so branding more than anything else
- [21:33:11] <tantek>
yes
- [21:33:16] <tantek>
emphasizes the micro
- [21:33:19] <whafro>
sure
- [21:33:25] <tantek>
and contrasts with the Uppercase Semantic Web
- [21:33:27] <tantek>
;)
- [21:33:41] <tantek>
see "lowercase semantic web" for some history
- [21:33:53] <tantek>
ok, lunch time!
- [21:34:19] <whafro>
yeah, noticed that
- [21:34:21] <whafro>
thanks, cheers!
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- [21:38:30] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
- [21:42:23] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats]] N http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats * JacksonWilkinson * (+927)
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- [22:07:05] <mfbot>
[[events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events/2006-08-17-refresh-dc-microformats&diff=0&oldid=8180 * Tantek * (-126) removed a bit of self-referential copy/paste foo
- [22:07:37] <tantek>
and be sure to link to it from the /wiki/events page
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- [22:14:46] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
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- [22:38:03] <jibot>
chimezie is Chimezie Ogbuji - He is a mammal
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- [23:02:02] <mfbot>
[[events]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=events&diff=0&oldid=8181 * Tantek * (+46) linked to specific event page
- [23:06:30] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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- [23:09:39] * ChanServ sets mode +o briansuda
- [23:09:39] <jibot>
briansuda is brian suda of http://suda.co.uk/ and http://claimid.com/briansuda in his freetime he works on the X2V microformats parser (-0600 CST)
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- [23:20:09] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] M http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8182 * Leip * (+208)
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