IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

  1. [00:32:42] * trel1023 (n=trel1023@cpe-066-057-014-057.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  2. [01:01:42] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  4. [01:20:35] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) Quit ("www.ie7.com It's Unreal TOURNAMENT 2007, learn 2 type ten more letters ffs!")
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  7. [01:37:54] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  10. [01:49:49] <qid> "But I'm inclined to think that a simpler solution would be to avoid the problem altogether by having a revolution (we don't have to necessarily shoot 'em; just strip them of their ludicrous titles)."
  11. [01:49:53] <qid> worked for us
  12. [02:06:25] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit ()
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  25. [03:38:37] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-141-99-25.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  26. [03:38:37] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  27. [03:38:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  31. [04:43:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-71-141-99-25.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  35. [05:09:38] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ("back soon, no doubt")
  36. [05:11:21] <Frederic> Hello
  37. [05:13:18] * jcgregorio (n=chatzill@adsl-072-148-043-048.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.68.5.1 [Firefox 1.5.0.5/undefined]")
  38. [05:18:44] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  39. [05:18:44] <jibot> Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
  40. [05:22:44] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) Quit ()
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  42. [05:43:59] * Enric (n=Enric@c-67-188-10-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) Quit ("Chatzilla 0.9.72 [Firefox 1.5.0.6/2006072814]")
  43. [06:11:03] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  44. [06:11:03] <jibot> vmarks is in NC
  45. [06:17:30] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  47. [06:22:53] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
  48. [06:48:04] * bluesmoon (i=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-6f8d1baa22c5bf9a) has joined #microformats
  49. [06:48:04] <jibot> bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
  50. [06:48:52] <bluesmoon> hmm, crowded in here
  51. [06:58:39] * tantek (n=tantek@ppp-71-139-9-255.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) has joined #microformats
  52. [06:58:39] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  53. [06:58:55] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  54. [07:04:02] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-94-230.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  55. [07:07:42] * cori[s] is now known as cori[s]|zZz
  56. [07:12:52] * tantek (n=tantek@ppp-71-139-9-255.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  57. [07:16:04] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  61. [07:34:09] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-94-230.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  62. [07:34:44] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/x-bf003419a55a8206) has joined #microformats
  63. [07:34:45] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  64. [07:44:18] * danja (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  65. [07:44:19] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  66. [07:48:09] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-94-230.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
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  69. [08:00:44] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  70. [08:00:44] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  71. [08:10:09] * amanuel (n=amanuel@d36-106-215.home1.cgocable.net) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  80. [08:51:35] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  125. [09:52:38] * vmarks (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit ("The computer fell asleep")
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  127. [09:52:41] <jibot> vincenzio is vmarks/vzl/raoulduke and is trying to pare down the number of nicks in use.
  128. [09:53:54] * leevigraham (n=chatzill@80-195-200-88.cable.ubr02.soli.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  129. [09:54:00] * vincenzio (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  137. [10:00:16] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  138. [10:00:37] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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  148. [10:12:01] <leevigraham> hi all
  149. [10:14:08] * vincenzio (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  150. [10:14:08] * vincenzio (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) has joined #microformats
  151. [10:15:16] <drewinthehead> hi leevigraham
  152. [10:16:49] * vincenzio (n=vmarks@cpe-065-190-165-181.nc.res.rr.com) Quit (Client Quit)
  153. [10:19:47] <drewinthehead> it's like grand central station in here today ... everyone's coming and going :)
  154. [10:20:30] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) has joined #microformats
  155. [10:24:57] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  156. [10:24:57] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  157. [10:25:09] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  158. [10:25:26] <drewinthehead> mornin' gsnedders
  159. [10:25:39] <gsnedders> mornin'
  160. [10:25:45] * gsnedders yawns loudly
  161. [10:27:20] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) has joined #microformats
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  163. [10:27:28] <Whiskey_M> 'lo
  164. [10:27:33] <drewinthehead> howdy chaps
  165. [10:27:39] <Whiskey_M> how goes?
  166. [10:27:47] <drewinthehead> good good
  167. [10:28:04] <drewinthehead> i'm currently puzzling over the weird URIs Yahoo! Local uses
  168. [10:28:41] <drewinthehead> example: http://local.yahoo.com/details;_ylt=Avnch_Pv0.1Zg97AJwy.0YCHNcIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBpZzIyMjd0BF9zAzk2NjEzNzY5BHNlYwNzcg--?id=19373194&state=TX&city=Austin&stx=hotel&csz=Austin%2C+TX&fr=&ed=FhRBFa131DxnA5yIWS21cRWI_KPbEj1YymTSCeVutO6x30_r1cjAQT0-&lcscb=
  169. [10:28:49] * gsnedders headdeks
  170. [10:29:04] <gsnedders> that's once heckuva nice URI.
  171. [10:29:19] <Whiskey_M> lovely
  172. [10:29:48] <drewinthehead> something in there is causing it to fail my mod_rewrite rules for passing into hkit on tools.microformatic.com
  173. [10:30:46] * gsnedders came here to do homework… maybe he should do it
  174. [10:42:03] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit ()
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  176. [10:50:06] <leevigraham> hi drew
  177. [10:50:22] <drewinthehead> hi leevigraham
  178. [10:50:38] <leevigraham> hi all...
  179. [10:50:40] <leevigraham> just a quick question regarding routes forms errors and redirect_to/render
  180. [10:50:41] <leevigraham> My issue is this:
  181. [10:50:43] <leevigraham> I have a named route setup:
  182. [10:50:44] <leevigraham> map.signup 'signup', :controller => 'admin/account', :action => 'signup'
  183. [10:50:46] <leevigraham> which redirects correctly when i type http://mydomain/signup, displaying a form if the request is a GET or processing the form if the request is a POST. If the form validation fails I want the page to re render showing the http://mydomain/signup url AND the form errors.
  184. [10:50:47] <leevigraham> Using redirect_to(signup_url) redirects to the right url but removes all the form errors and warnings. If I use render(signup_url) it request fails
  185. [10:50:49] <leevigraham> Any ideas?
  186. [10:52:43] <drewinthehead> looks like you need #rubyonrails :)
  187. [10:52:57] <leevigraham> oops... wrong chanel tab
  188. [10:53:00] <leevigraham> my mistake
  189. [10:53:01] <drewinthehead> :D
  190. [10:53:02] <leevigraham> :
  191. [10:53:37] <drewinthehead> looks like something in my chain is cropping those URIs at 128 chars
  192. [10:53:45] <drewinthehead> truncating, i should say
  193. [10:59:13] <d4rr3ll> hi, would anyone be interested in doing a quick sanity check on some hlistings?
  194. [11:00:34] <drewinthehead> ooo hListing
  195. [11:00:56] <drewinthehead> not something i've looked at personally
  196. [11:01:06] <d4rr3ll> http://www.dealtagger.com/tag/trooper+spud/
  197. [11:01:55] <d4rr3ll> I'm struggling to find real world examples of hlisting, so thought I'd make a start anyway
  198. [11:02:47] <d4rr3ll> so any feedback would be welcome
  199. [11:03:38] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  200. [11:08:31] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
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  202. [11:12:56] <drewinthehead> wow, your markup is tightly packed, d4rr3ll!
  203. [11:13:16] <d4rr3ll> drewinthehead, thanks, mod_xslt to the rescue :)
  204. [11:15:03] <d4rr3ll> the 'view fortmatted source' extension for firefox tidies it up and makes it more readable if your struggling
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  212. [12:26:20] * bergie (n=bergie@kone1.tmvvision.finnetcom.net) has joined #microformats
  213. [12:26:20] <jibot> bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
  214. [12:27:41] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/session) has joined #microformats
  215. [12:27:41] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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  220. [12:41:08] <jibot> csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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  222. [13:35:16] * Whiskey_M (n=Richard@host-84-9-127-20.bulldogdsl.com) Quit ("custard")
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  224. [13:35:21] * sreynen (n=sreynen@216.81.176.51) has joined #microformats
  225. [13:35:22] <jibot> sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
  226. [13:35:51] <trovster> drewinthehead
  227. [13:36:01] <drewinthehead> trovster
  228. [13:36:05] <trovster> http://yahoo.com/
  229. [13:36:20] <drewinthehead> hah .. awesome
  230. [13:36:30] <trovster> :)
  231. [13:36:48] <drewinthehead> http://www.yahoo.com/
  232. [13:37:04] <trovster> no-www :)
  233. [13:37:48] <drewinthehead> don't look at me ... ask sunnyvale!
  234. [13:38:23] <trovster> Do I get a prize?
  235. [13:39:38] <drewinthehead> yeah, you get to see the yahoo home page not working without a www
  236. [13:40:45] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-83-17.w90-4.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  237. [13:42:20] <drewinthehead> i've reported it, trovster
  238. [13:44:34] * pnhChris (n=cac6982@c-68-39-65-171.hsd1.nj.comcast.net) has joined #microformats
  239. [13:44:34] <jibot> pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
  240. [13:45:55] * trov (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) has joined #microformats
  241. [13:46:00] * trovster (n=trov@creation1.plus.com) Quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  242. [13:47:09] <drewinthehead> hey pnhChris
  243. [13:47:19] <pnhChris> hola
  244. [13:47:27] <drewinthehead> trovster just broke the whole of Yahoo
  245. [13:47:32] <pnhChris> sweet
  246. [13:47:46] <pnhChris> howd he dot that?
  247. [13:48:12] <drewinthehead> he ate the www
  248. [13:48:21] <drewinthehead> http://yahoo.com/
  249. [13:48:38] <trov> frickin' yeh :)
  250. [13:48:41] <drewinthehead> mistook it for a pie
  251. [13:48:59] <pnhChris> yum
  252. [13:49:26] <pnhChris> now he's in hiding with an alias?
  253. [13:50:11] <drewinthehead> yeah, sunnyvale is mobilising and he's prime suspect.
  254. [13:54:14] <trov> don't blame me!
  255. [13:54:39] * trov is now known as trovster
  256. [13:55:36] <trovster> Although, I wonder how long it's been like that.
  257. [14:00:39] <mfbot> [[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=8357 * D4rr3ll * (+60) Examples in the Wild -
  258. [14:09:37] <drewinthehead> fixed, sorta, trovster
  259. [14:11:14] <trovster> Do I get a prize?
  260. [14:11:40] <qid> that just redirects me to www.yahoo.com and it works fine
  261. [14:11:59] <drewinthehead> yeah, i think that's probably a temporary fix to get it working
  262. [14:12:13] <trovster> I think it's the better solution, than having both
  263. [14:12:28] <drewinthehead> anyway, thanks for reporting it, someone's working on it now.
  264. [14:12:55] <qid> on my website, I redirect www.domain.com to domain.com >_>
  265. [14:19:49] <drewinthehead> yes, i think i'm going to start doing that too, qid
  266. [14:20:02] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) has joined #Microformats
  267. [14:20:03] <jibot> cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
  268. [14:20:06] <trovster> I redirect domain to www.domain.com :)
  269. [14:21:06] * cgriego (n=cgriego@e2.87.5d45.static.theplanet.com) Quit (Client Quit)
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  275. [14:41:05] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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  284. [15:08:53] <jibot> amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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  295. [16:09:44] <mfbot> [[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=8358 * Dan Champion * (+181)
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  302. [16:39:41] <jibot> dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
  303. [16:39:59] * ChanServ sets mode +o dglazkov
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  307. [17:02:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  308. [17:02:48] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  309. [17:07:11] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  310. [17:07:11] <jibot> kingryan is ryan king
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  332. [18:25:51] <keithalexander> I'm reading: http://www.idealliance.org/papers/extreme/proceedings/html/2006/Quin01/EML2006Quin01.html
  333. [18:26:19] <keithalexander> The author cites one of the advantages as being:
  334. [18:26:20] <keithalexander> Standardised markup idioms also facilitate the sharing of code libraries to augment browser behaviour, the so-called unobtrusive JavaScript mentioned earlier.
  335. [18:26:34] <keithalexander> [endquote]
  336. [18:27:48] <keithalexander> I've not seen many examples of javascript libraries specifying a particular markup idiom - can anyone enlighten me?
  337. [18:32:41] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) Quit ()
  338. [18:33:54] <bewest> you haven't?
  339. [18:34:17] <bewest> keithalexander: if you want a fancy example, the windows Live Clipboard would fit into that category
  340. [18:35:20] <keithalexander> ah right. anything else come to mind?
  341. [18:36:07] <kingryan> weird, that paper says:
  342. [18:36:25] <kingryan> "In addition, the increased awareness that use of CSS [Chemical Style Sheets] can help reduce the bandwidth a Web site uses, ..."
  343. [18:36:44] <kingryan> I'm not sure I wanna read the paper if the "expert in markup languages" doesn't know what CSS stands for
  344. [18:37:13] <keithalexander> i assumed he was being ironic or something and i just didn't get the joke
  345. [18:37:23] <kingryan> I don't think so
  346. [18:37:32] <keithalexander> i still think that's the most likely assumption
  347. [18:37:39] <bewest> keithalexander: other examples...
  348. [18:37:39] <bewest> sure
  349. [18:37:45] <keithalexander> why would anyone think C stood for chemical?
  350. [18:37:55] <keithalexander> fire away bewest
  351. [18:38:03] <bewest> keithalexander: heirarchical menues that use nested lists
  352. [18:38:29] <kingryan> another misunderstanding from the paper: "XHTML is mostly a presentational language, used for rendering."
  353. [18:38:39] <bewest> o-O
  354. [18:38:58] <keithalexander> no, to be fair he says that it is both
  355. [18:39:09] <keithalexander> and it is true that it is presentational
  356. [18:39:13] <jibot> MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus and has a passion for fashion and is finally back in CA!
  357. [18:39:15] <bewest> um
  358. [18:39:25] <bewest> is that why presentational elements are deprecated?
  359. [18:39:37] <bewest> maybe I misunderstand what is mean by presentational
  360. [18:39:40] <Phae> chemical style sheets
  361. [18:39:45] <Phae> heh
  362. [18:39:55] <keithalexander> yes, I know we are moving away from that, but it still has a distinct presentational after taste
  363. [18:40:12] <keithalexander> well, the usual webdev sense is font tags etc
  364. [18:40:28] <keithalexander> but I think maybe he just means, for presenting a document
  365. [18:40:47] <keithalexander> as opposed to a data storage format
  366. [18:41:53] <qid> "The result of microformats is HTML documents that are peppered with additional information in an uncontrolled manner"
  367. [18:42:04] <Phae> uncontrolled
  368. [18:42:09] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  369. [18:42:12] <Phae> that's not in the slightest bit true
  370. [18:42:21] <kingryan> keithalexander: you're talking about how people use the format, not the format itself
  371. [18:42:58] <keithalexander> kingryan: xhtml? no, not talking about how people use it
  372. [18:43:00] <bewest> right, just because Joe uses his car to deliver pizzas doesn't mean he bought a delivery car from a delivery car company.
  373. [18:43:19] <bewest> it's still a honda civic at the end of the day
  374. [18:43:45] <bewest> just because xhtml is often used to render a presentation of a document to a human doesn't mean that xhtml is presentational
  375. [18:44:19] <bewest> gotta run
  376. [18:44:19] <Phae> If browsers didn't have default stylesheets, I assume a plain XHTML document would have all the information looking the same.
  377. [18:44:28] <keithalexander> depends what you mean by presentational I suppose
  378. [18:44:29] <qid> "Microformats are decentralised, but also have no global identifiers, no equivalent to the namespace URI: name conflicts seem destined to occur with increasing frequency."
  379. [18:44:35] <bewest> gotta run
  380. [18:44:40] <Phae> ciao bear42
  381. [18:44:42] <Phae> oops. bewest
  382. [18:44:45] <keithalexander> see you bewest
  383. [18:45:38] <qid> Phae: someone had a method to clear out the default stylesheet in a browser
  384. [18:46:11] <Phae> But anyway. I was vaguely going towards the point that the presentational elements of even an "unstyled" page are set by the browser, not the XHTML, really.
  385. [18:46:20] <Phae> Probably, qid
  386. [18:46:28] * Monody (n=vlarsen@244.80-202-20.nextgentel.com) has left #microformats
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  388. [18:48:04] <KevinMarks> tantek has a 'clear all defaults' CSS
  389. [18:48:31] <tantek> look for undohtml.css
  390. [18:48:37] <Phae> :)
  391. [18:48:54] <KevinMarks> not all browser have 'default stylesheets' as not all do CSS - (eg lynx, cellphone browsers etc)
  392. [18:48:57] <gsnedders> tantek: I know this is rather off topic, but where does your surname come from?
  393. [18:49:00] <Phae> True.
  394. [18:50:07] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  395. [18:50:07] <jibot> trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
  396. [18:50:17] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has left #microformats
  397. [18:50:43] <kingryan> gsnedders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantek_%C3%87elik
  398. [18:51:02] <kingryan> "Tantek Çelik, of San Francisco, is a Computer scientist of Turkish-American descent and Chief Technologist at Technorati"
  399. [18:51:05] <kingryan> :D
  400. [18:51:30] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) has joined #microformats
  401. [18:51:30] <gsnedders> kingryan: I have a habit of not assuming names come from where you're descended from :P
  402. [18:51:35] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
  403. [18:51:39] <kingryan> ah
  404. [18:51:45] <kingryan> well, in this case it is
  405. [18:52:04] <gsnedders> kingryan: there's several people at my school with Scandinavian names, who aren't Scandinavian.
  406. [18:52:30] <qid> "There are surely some who would claim that if HTML documents that use microformats are the teenagers of Markup, namespaced microformats would represent their acne."
  407. [18:52:51] <qid> I think this guy put more work into his metaphors than into actually researching the subject he wrote about
  408. [18:52:59] <Phae> Yeah.
  409. [18:53:05] <kingryan> gsnedders: that's true, esp. here in america where it's often tough to know where your family came from anyway
  410. [18:53:05] <trovster> Good metaphor though :)
  411. [18:53:25] <Phae> Who is the guy that wrote that?
  412. [18:53:32] <kingryan> someone wanna write this article for the mf.org blog?
  413. [18:53:35] <Phae> I didn't get the link.
  414. [18:53:43] <Phae> What article?
  415. [18:53:50] <kingryan> Phae: I dunno, he came by mf.org a long time ago with these ideas, and got the predictable rejection
  416. [18:53:53] <qid> http://www.idealliance.org/papers/extreme/proceedings/html/2006/Quin01/EML2006Quin01.html
  417. [18:54:01] <Phae> oh.
  418. [18:54:09] <gsnedders> kingryan: Geoffrey is technically a German name, and Sneddon Scottish. I'm Scottish by birth and residence, and by decent through my grandfather, but otherwise I'm English by decent
  419. [18:54:11] <kingryan> that's what qid's been quoting from
  420. [18:54:23] <Phae> I assume hte [w3c] bit means he's on some working group
  421. [18:54:32] <Phae> Yeah, I got that. Just hadn't read it yet.
  422. [18:54:38] <kingryan> ryan is a scottish name, king an english one, but my family is mostly german
  423. [18:54:58] <kingryan> which makes me an american :D
  424. [18:55:12] <gsnedders> kingryan: I count myself as English :P
  425. [18:55:34] <qid> he tries to poke all these bogus holes in microformats, then proceeds to define some goofy XML language with no spec or namespace or anything
  426. [18:55:39] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
  427. [18:55:39] <jibot> mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
  428. [18:55:54] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
  429. [18:56:19] <Phae> He's lead for the XML group, so of course he's plugging some random XML approach
  430. [18:56:32] <Phae> but it'd be more useful to really answer his issues
  431. [18:56:54] <Phae> Don't we have a wiki page or common concerns/arguments?
  432. [18:57:09] <qid> we have several, I think
  433. [18:57:11] <Phae> for*
  434. [18:57:14] <Phae> :D well then
  435. [18:57:15] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Client Quit)
  436. [18:57:23] <qid> http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful for one, and it links to others
  437. [18:57:50] <kingryan> perhaps his issues can be answered there?
  438. [18:58:10] <kingryan> and perhaps someone wants to write up a blog post in response? (*hint, hint*)
  439. [18:58:14] * trel1023 (n=trel1023@cpe-066-057-014-057.nc.res.rr.com) has left #microformats
  440. [18:58:25] <keithalexander> Does anyone understand: "Microformats help people to avoid using XML. They are at the same time subverting HTML. "
  441. [18:58:32] <Phae> no
  442. [18:58:33] <Phae> heh
  443. [18:58:47] <KevinMarks> talking of extending metaphors: http://words.einsteinslock.com/scriptteaser/data-shoeology/
  444. [18:58:57] * Phae reads the article properly.
  445. [18:59:06] * Atamido wishes XML had been invented first so it would all be a non-issue.
  446. [19:00:19] <KevinMarks> SGML was invented first
  447. [19:00:37] <keithalexander> how can you subvert a markup language?
  448. [19:01:03] <KevinMarks> 'Chemical Style Sheets' ?
  449. [19:01:13] <keithalexander> I guess <em class="no-emphasis"> would be subverting it
  450. [19:01:14] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-49-55.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
  451. [19:01:27] <keithalexander> maybe it was a typo?
  452. [19:01:30] <Phae> Yeah, we've already noticed that KevinMarks.
  453. [19:01:53] <Phae> I'm wondering if it's not a typo though
  454. [19:01:54] <qid> I think the first half of that sentence is at least partially correct
  455. [19:02:06] * dardarsauce (n=dardarsa@38.99.12.65) has joined #microformats
  456. [19:02:20] <qid> microformats help people avoid duplicating certain data in separate XML formats
  457. [19:03:11] <qid> although the most popular microformats are based on non-XML formats
  458. [19:04:41] <KevinMarks> well we have the 'XHTML is XML' rejoinder
  459. [19:04:41] <keithalexander> what about his point about scalability?
  460. [19:04:41] <Phae> His disadvantages section doesn't seem to actually say much of substance.
  461. [19:04:51] <Phae> I was just reading that bit.
  462. [19:04:55] <KevinMarks> well, he misunderstands the microformats processs
  463. [19:05:05] <KevinMarks> he ignores the goal of convergence of schema
  464. [19:05:26] <KevinMarks> by omitting namespaces, we force ourselves to converge
  465. [19:05:46] * danja_ (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  466. [19:05:56] * danja (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  467. [19:05:59] <KevinMarks> this sentence is entirely backwards:
  468. [19:06:11] <KevinMarks> " In particular, and this is crucial to understanding the culture from which they arose, there is no need to perform formal analysis in advance: you can type a Web page into your favourite text editor and add attributes whenever you feel like it. This is a strength, in that it is immediate, something now in a world characterised by the attention span of a scrollbar."
  469. [19:06:27] <KevinMarks> let me make that true by substitution
  470. [19:06:51] <KevinMarks> In particular, and this is crucial to understanding the culture from which they arose, there is no need to perform formal analysis in advance: you can type a XML page into your favourite text editor and add elements and attributes whenever you feel like it.
  471. [19:07:02] <Phae> heh
  472. [19:07:32] <kingryan> someone write a blog post! :D
  473. [19:07:36] <Phae> you do it!
  474. [19:07:43] <kingryan> no, you!
  475. [19:07:46] <Phae> :S
  476. [19:07:54] <KevinMarks> He is confounding 'semantic use fo classes' with 'microformats'
  477. [19:07:54] <Phae> I have to write a presentation still for barcamp this weekend :(
  478. [19:08:08] <Phae> yeah
  479. [19:08:22] <qid> you can certainly write an XML file or a website by just throwing in whatever elements and attributes you feel like
  480. [19:08:24] <Phae> I know. He imagines that people will just willy-nilly make up microformats and expect them to be accepted
  481. [19:08:29] <qid> it doesn't mean anyone else can understand it
  482. [19:08:33] <Phae> yeah
  483. [19:08:42] * danja_ (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  484. [19:08:46] * danja (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  485. [19:09:09] <qid> hmmmm
  486. [19:09:37] * gsnedders is now known as not-gsnedders
  487. [19:09:45] <qid> I wonder if you misread that, I think he was pointing out that microformats can be added to your existing data
  488. [19:10:53] <qid> I think by "add attributes" he meant microformat attributes
  489. [19:11:18] <Phae> I think there's a lot of things in that that are ambiguous
  490. [19:11:33] <Phae> which makes it difficult to really evaluate
  491. [19:11:43] * not-gsnedders is now known as gsnedders
  492. [19:12:09] <Phae> and there's subtle sprinklings of opinion everywhere, rather than factual evidence
  493. [19:14:00] <keithalexander> does forgoing namespaces limit the practical number of microformats (in that if there were 100s, it would be hard to keep them straight enough in your head to converge them)? And is that be a bad thing or a good thing?
  494. [19:15:29] <qid> hundreds of microformats is an anti-goal, iirc
  495. [19:16:11] <KevinMarks> microformats are meant to be converged common cases
  496. [19:16:15] <qid> http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful <-- some reasons why microformats avoid namespaces
  497. [19:16:19] <KevinMarks> if you wnatarbitrary
  498. [19:16:35] <KevinMarks> if you want arbitrary key/value pairs, use XOXO
  499. [19:17:07] * ajturner (n=irc@s233-64-126-217.try.wideopenwest.com) has joined #microformats
  500. [19:19:32] <keithalexander> I don't have an axe to grind about namespaces, but I didn't find http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful all that convincing - too much assertions
  501. [19:20:15] <keithalexander> not that I think they are necessary, but wasn't convinced of their harmfulness
  502. [19:20:52] * dardarsauce (n=dardarsa@38.99.12.65) Quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  503. [19:26:32] * drewinthehead (n=drewinth@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  504. [19:26:32] <jibot> drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
  505. [19:36:06] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  507. [19:38:41] <mfbot> [[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8359 * Tantek * (+114) marked up Thomas A Anderson details with hCard on Wikipedia
  508. [19:40:39] * trovster (n=trovster@host86-139-6-140.range86-139.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  511. [19:47:27] <drewinthehead> evenin' all
  512. [19:48:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
  513. [19:52:47] <gsnedders> drewinthehead: evenin'
  514. [19:53:35] <drewinthehead> how goes?
  515. [19:54:44] <gsnedders> drewinthehead: just singing along to music :P
  516. [19:58:30] * Advocation (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) has joined #microformats
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  522. [20:13:22] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  523. [20:13:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  524. [20:21:02] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
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  526. [20:29:04] <jibot> gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
  527. [20:52:04] * Frederic (n=neuro@pdpc/supporter/active/neuro) Quit ("blam")
  528. [20:52:43] * Advocation (n=advocati@82.153.37.36) Quit (Client Quit)
  529. [20:57:53] <keithalexander> That paper we were talking about before says something else I don't understand: # Do we pressure vendors and the W3C to extend CSS to reduce or eliminate the need to abuse existing XHTML elements? Following this route, it should be possible to reproduce Web browser behaviour exactly and entirely on any element, using CSS. Of course, this is already possible using XSLT.
  530. [20:58:06] <keithalexander> [/endquote]
  531. [20:58:33] <kingryan> I don't completely understand it either
  532. [20:58:48] <kingryan> I think first of all, he's confusing @class and Chemical Style Sheets
  533. [20:58:57] <keithalexander> lol
  534. [20:59:31] <kingryan> then maybe he's suggesting that behaviors based on class names be built into browsers?
  535. [20:59:42] <keithalexander> "pressure vendors and the W3C to extend CSS to reduce or eliminate the need to abuse existing XHTML elements"
  536. [20:59:42] <kingryan> or maybe add new semantic elements?
  537. [21:00:00] <keithalexander> that's not CSS that needs to be extended though
  538. [21:00:13] <keithalexander> it would be xhtml
  539. [21:00:39] <kingryan> yeah, that's my first comment there
  540. [21:01:01] <kingryan> assuming that he's really talking about extending XHTML, CSS and the DOM...
  541. [21:01:37] <keithalexander> I know that CSS limitations can necessitate extra divs and so on, but I don't think that's what he means - nor does it have anything to do with µformats
  542. [21:02:36] <keithalexander> and the last part: "Following this route, it should be possible to reproduce Web browser behaviour exactly and entirely on any element, using CSS. Of course, this is already possible using XSLT."
  543. [21:02:55] <kingryan> I'm lost there
  544. [21:02:57] <keithalexander> isn't this already possible using CSS?
  545. [21:03:28] <keithalexander> ah, I don't know what he means at all
  546. [21:03:32] <kingryan> not behaviors
  547. [21:03:56] <kingryan> maybe he wants to do "<span class='xhtml:input' />" ?
  548. [21:04:04] * danja (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) Quit ()
  549. [21:04:05] <keithalexander> eek
  550. [21:05:25] <keithalexander> hard to see how that relates to µformats
  551. [21:05:40] <keithalexander> (any of what he says there)
  552. [21:08:34] * gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-133-100.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) Quit (Remote closed the connection)
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  554. [21:12:57] <jibot> ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
  555. [21:15:53] <keithalexander> a rather strange and at times patronising article: "Should the traditional markup community ignore the Webheads, or react? [...] The biggest question of all: do we try to help people who are not so far along the path, or do we stop and wait for them, or do we leave them behind? Or do we throw rocks at them from above and try to dislodge them?"
  556. [21:19:36] <keithalexander> ... as if "Webheads" are putting semantics into attributes just because they don't know how to do markup properly.
  557. [21:20:00] * basilcrow (n=bcrow@bootp-14.nicholson.brown.edu) Quit ()
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  560. [21:25:39] <bewest> keithalexander: we've recieved similar comments about "* considered harmful" wiki pages
  561. [21:25:59] <bewest> keithalexander: I think the reasons are two fold:
  562. [21:26:20] <bewest> 1.) The articles are simply stubs. They are not well thought out cohesive propositions.
  563. [21:26:30] <keithalexander> fair dos
  564. [21:26:57] <bewest> 2.) the phrase "considered harmful" is idiomatic, and some people are not understanding the idiom
  565. [21:28:04] <keithalexander> irony eh?
  566. [21:28:36] <bewest> hehe
  567. [21:28:37] <bewest> yes
  568. [21:29:17] <bewest> the idiom evidently stems from Djikstra's article on "Goto considered harmful"
  569. [21:31:19] <bewest> I once saw goto used effectively
  570. [21:31:27] <bewest> and I recently saw goto used incredibly poorly
  571. [21:31:54] <bewest> "considered harmful" means that the technique in question isn't considered best practice
  572. [21:32:22] <bewest> and in fact may or may not be detrimental to furthering available techniques
  573. [21:32:51] <bewest> certainly when used carelessly (as most things are done) is definitely detrimental
  574. [21:32:58] <kingryan> keithalexander: its also noteable that 'Webheads' have been at it for quite awhile longer than the "traditional markup community"
  575. [21:33:21] <bewest> yeah, the term webhead in opposition to "traditional markup community" is very confusing to me
  576. [21:33:29] <bewest> I don't know what either mean
  577. [21:33:54] <hober> I imagine the opposition is "greybeard SGML people" v. "people whose first markup language was some HTML flavor"
  578. [21:34:07] <keithalexander> that's what I figured
  579. [21:34:21] <Phae> As I said earlier, the spin on the article is to use derogatory descriptive titles for those things he does not like or agree with
  580. [21:34:21] <keithalexander> I imagined sandals as well
  581. [21:34:23] <Phae> which don't help.
  582. [21:34:25] <kingryan> but, hober, in reality, most of his imagined "traditional community" are XMLHeads
  583. [21:34:33] <Phae> they just impress his opinions on the reader
  584. [21:35:07] <keithalexander> I can't even figure out what many of his views are
  585. [21:35:30] <Phae> It vaguely goes "XML=yay!MFs=evil" I think.
  586. [21:37:21] <keithalexander> ah, I see what he means about 'extending' CSS. he wants colons for namespaces
  587. [21:38:06] <keithalexander> (inside class values)
  588. [21:39:18] * danja (n=danja@host120-217.pool80104.interbusiness.it) has joined #microformats
  589. [21:39:18] <jibot> danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
  590. [21:42:23] <keithalexander> talking of XML and µfs, anyone know of microformats in other markup languages, beyond html? any articles you could point me to?
  591. [21:45:12] * dc__ (n=dctanner@bb-87-81-165-34.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  592. [21:46:06] <hober> kingryan: right
  593. [21:46:33] <kingryan> he's trying to make XMLHeads look like the wise grownups
  594. [21:46:40] <kingryan> and WebHeads like teenagers
  595. [21:46:58] <kingryan> which is wrong on many levels
  596. [21:47:13] * Phae nods.
  597. [21:47:38] <kingryan> (I guess I should enumerate those levels)
  598. [21:48:44] * KevinMarks (n=Snak@pdpc/supporter/active/kevinmarks) Quit (Connection timed out)
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  600. [21:49:16] <jibot> ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
  601. [21:49:53] <kingryan> HTML is older than XML, HTML has more mature deployments, HTML is better understood and WebHeads re not ignorant of XML (in fact, we may know it too well)
  602. [21:50:15] * kingryan just realized that "HTML has more mature deployments" can be parsed 2 ways and they're both correct
  603. [21:51:22] <hober> heh
  604. [21:51:23] <Phae> How's that blog entry going? ;)
  605. [21:51:58] <kingryan> I dunno Phae, you tell me :D
  606. [21:52:13] <Phae> Ask me after the weekend.
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  619. [22:33:04] <danja> keithalexander, "microformats in other markup languages"
  620. [22:33:29] <danja> good question
  621. [22:34:04] <danja> I don't know of any, and can't actually imagine any
  622. [22:34:54] <danja> without what (X)HTML has already, what would be the motivation?
  623. [22:35:41] <danja> (has = intergalactic deployment)
  624. [22:37:07] * Mr_Elusive (n=Mr_Elusi@S0106000f66365909.wp.shawcable.net) has joined #microformats
  625. [22:39:17] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  626. [22:41:06] <deusx> blogging aliens?
  627. [22:46:43] <dardarsauce> aliens prefer firefox
  628. [22:46:55] <dardarsauce> we know that much
  629. [22:46:58] <dardarsauce> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/firefox_crop_circle/
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  631. [22:48:58] * Molly (n=Molly@ip68-0-175-195.tc.ph.cox.net) has joined #microformats
  632. [22:49:41] <Molly> hi all
  633. [22:50:50] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  634. [22:50:56] <dardarsauce> hi
  635. [22:54:39] * Phae (n=phae@bb-87-80-218-92.ukonline.co.uk) has joined #microformats
  636. [22:56:03] <Phae> doh
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  640. [23:15:48] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  641. [23:17:07] * csarven (i=nevrasc@modemcable163.203-56-74.mc.videotron.ca) has joined #microformats
  642. [23:23:33] <keithale1ander> hi danja: sorry, didn't hear the 'someone said your name' alert
  643. [23:24:41] <keithale1ander> re: µf in other languages, I am thinking of TEI myself
  644. [23:25:00] <danja> heh, this machine does a really annoying beepy noise, second only to "cat about to vomit"
  645. [23:25:24] <danja> TEI, TEI...sure I know that - remind me?
  646. [23:25:41] <keithale1ander> Text Encoding Initiative
  647. [23:26:01] <danja> ah, I know of (only)
  648. [23:26:02] <jibot> MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus and has a passion for fashion and is finally back in CA!
  649. [23:26:15] <keithale1ander> used generally most commonly in humanities academia
  650. [23:26:58] <danja> is it sgmlish markup?
  651. [23:27:14] <keithale1ander> it used to be, but is XML now
  652. [23:29:50] <keithale1ander> my take on microformats (one aspect at least) is that HTML and TEI are both necessarily open ended
  653. [23:30:50] <deusx> Oh man, windup to cat vomit is an alert that'll get me running from any room in the house
  654. [23:31:05] <keithale1ander> and offer authors the possibility to tighten up the semantics with attribute values
  655. [23:33:09] <keithale1ander> I see microformats as being neat because it doesn't get in the way of authorial freedom, but offers optional mini standards and interoperability for those who want it
  656. [23:41:54] * tantek (n=tantek@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) has joined #microformats
  657. [23:41:54] <jibot> tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
  658. [23:42:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
  659. [23:45:01] <bewest> deusx: I tend to get paralyzed... you want to help the cat, but you don't want to get near it... you just hope it goes outside!
  660. [23:45:11] <bewest> so you open a door and kind of gently shoo it
  661. [23:45:26] <deusx> Eh, we have indoor cats, so I rush at them and hold them over a paper towel :)
  662. [23:45:33] <bewest> oh yeah
  663. [23:45:37] <bewest> the paper towel placement
  664. [23:45:42] <bewest> put a paper towel down
  665. [23:45:44] <bewest> hope they use it
  666. [23:45:54] * pnhChris checks what channel he's in
  667. [23:45:55] <bewest> they typically get it half on - half off whatever you were hoping for
  668. [23:46:06] <bewest> pnhChris: cat vomit channel
  669. [23:46:10] <bewest> pnhChris: #catvomit
  670. [23:46:17] <pnhChris> good.. then i'm in the right place
  671. [23:46:34] <deusx> microvomits
  672. [23:46:41] <bewest> right now we're talking about what you do when the cat is winding up to vomit
  673. [23:49:01] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
  674. [23:59:01] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()

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