IRC Log for #microformats on 2006-09-01
Timestamps are in UTC.
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- [01:37:54] <jibot>
amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [01:49:49] <qid>
"But I'm inclined to think that a simpler solution would be to avoid the problem altogether by having a revolution (we don't have to necessarily shoot 'em; just strip them of their ludicrous titles)."
- [01:49:53] <qid>
worked for us
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- [03:38:37] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [05:11:21] <Frederic>
Hello
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- [05:18:44] <jibot>
Enric is a media Software Developer and Videoblogger located at http://www.cirne.com
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- [06:11:03] <jibot>
vmarks is in NC
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- [06:48:04] <jibot>
bluesmoon is Philip from India & writes often on livejournal & sometimes about tech stuff on http://bluesmoon.blogspot.com & restaurants on http://bluesviews.blogspot.com & local food secrets on http://bluesfood.blogspot.com
- [06:48:52] <bluesmoon>
hmm, crowded in here
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- [06:58:39] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [07:34:45] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [07:44:19] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
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- [08:00:44] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [09:52:41] <jibot>
vincenzio is vmarks/vzl/raoulduke and is trying to pare down the number of nicks in use.
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- [10:00:16] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [10:12:01] <leevigraham>
hi all
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- [10:15:16] <drewinthehead>
hi leevigraham
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- [10:19:47] <drewinthehead>
it's like grand central station in here today ... everyone's coming and going :)
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- [10:24:57] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
- [10:25:09] * ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154) Quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
- [10:25:26] <drewinthehead>
mornin' gsnedders
- [10:25:39] <gsnedders>
mornin'
- [10:25:45] * gsnedders yawns loudly
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- [10:27:28] <Whiskey_M>
'lo
- [10:27:33] <drewinthehead>
howdy chaps
- [10:27:39] <Whiskey_M>
how goes?
- [10:27:47] <drewinthehead>
good good
- [10:28:04] <drewinthehead>
i'm currently puzzling over the weird URIs Yahoo! Local uses
- [10:28:41] <drewinthehead>
example: http://local.yahoo.com/details;_ylt=Avnch_Pv0.1Zg97AJwy.0YCHNcIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBpZzIyMjd0BF9zAzk2NjEzNzY5BHNlYwNzcg--?id=19373194&state=TX&city=Austin&stx=hotel&csz=Austin%2C+TX&fr=&ed=FhRBFa131DxnA5yIWS21cRWI_KPbEj1YymTSCeVutO6x30_r1cjAQT0-&lcscb=
- [10:28:49] * gsnedders headdeks
- [10:29:04] <gsnedders>
that's once heckuva nice URI.
- [10:29:19] <Whiskey_M>
lovely
- [10:29:48] <drewinthehead>
something in there is causing it to fail my mod_rewrite rules for passing into hkit on tools.microformatic.com
- [10:30:46] * gsnedders came here to do homework… maybe he should do it
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- [10:50:06] <leevigraham>
hi drew
- [10:50:22] <drewinthehead>
hi leevigraham
- [10:50:38] <leevigraham>
hi all...
- [10:50:40] <leevigraham>
just a quick question regarding routes forms errors and redirect_to/render
- [10:50:41] <leevigraham>
My issue is this:
- [10:50:43] <leevigraham>
I have a named route setup:
- [10:50:44] <leevigraham>
map.signup 'signup', :controller => 'admin/account', :action => 'signup'
- [10:50:46] <leevigraham>
which redirects correctly when i type http://mydomain/signup, displaying a form if the request is a GET or processing the form if the request is a POST. If the form validation fails I want the page to re render showing the http://mydomain/signup url AND the form errors.
- [10:50:47] <leevigraham>
Using redirect_to(signup_url) redirects to the right url but removes all the form errors and warnings. If I use render(signup_url) it request fails
- [10:50:49] <leevigraham>
Any ideas?
- [10:52:43] <drewinthehead>
looks like you need #rubyonrails :)
- [10:52:57] <leevigraham>
oops... wrong chanel tab
- [10:53:00] <leevigraham>
my mistake
- [10:53:01] <drewinthehead>
:D
- [10:53:02] <leevigraham>
:
- [10:53:37] <drewinthehead>
looks like something in my chain is cropping those URIs at 128 chars
- [10:53:45] <drewinthehead>
truncating, i should say
- [10:59:13] <d4rr3ll>
hi, would anyone be interested in doing a quick sanity check on some hlistings?
- [11:00:34] <drewinthehead>
ooo hListing
- [11:00:56] <drewinthehead>
not something i've looked at personally
- [11:01:06] <d4rr3ll>
http://www.dealtagger.com/tag/trooper+spud/
- [11:01:55] <d4rr3ll>
I'm struggling to find real world examples of hlisting, so thought I'd make a start anyway
- [11:02:47] <d4rr3ll>
so any feedback would be welcome
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- [11:12:56] <drewinthehead>
wow, your markup is tightly packed, d4rr3ll!
- [11:13:16] <d4rr3ll>
drewinthehead, thanks, mod_xslt to the rescue :)
- [11:15:03] <d4rr3ll>
the 'view fortmatted source' extension for firefox tidies it up and makes it more readable if your struggling
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- [12:26:20] <jibot>
bergie is lives in Finland and blogs at http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/ and Midgard CMS developer
- [12:27:41] * drewinthehead (i=mclellan@nat/yahoo/session) has joined #microformats
- [12:27:41] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [12:41:08] <jibot>
csarven is Sarven Capadisli and can be found online at http://www.csarven.ca
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- [13:35:22] <jibot>
sreynen is Scott Reynen, who makes things at makedatamakesense.com
- [13:35:51] <trovster>
drewinthehead
- [13:36:01] <drewinthehead>
trovster
- [13:36:05] <trovster>
http://yahoo.com/
- [13:36:20] <drewinthehead>
hah .. awesome
- [13:36:30] <trovster>
:)
- [13:36:48] <drewinthehead>
http://www.yahoo.com/
- [13:37:04] <trovster>
no-www :)
- [13:37:48] <drewinthehead>
don't look at me ... ask sunnyvale!
- [13:38:23] <trovster>
Do I get a prize?
- [13:39:38] <drewinthehead>
yeah, you get to see the yahoo home page not working without a www
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- [13:42:20] <drewinthehead>
i've reported it, trovster
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- [13:44:34] <jibot>
pnhChris is Chris Casciano, blogs at http://placenamehere.com/ , and a member of the Web Standards Project.
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- [13:47:09] <drewinthehead>
hey pnhChris
- [13:47:19] <pnhChris>
hola
- [13:47:27] <drewinthehead>
trovster just broke the whole of Yahoo
- [13:47:32] <pnhChris>
sweet
- [13:47:46] <pnhChris>
howd he dot that?
- [13:48:12] <drewinthehead>
he ate the www
- [13:48:21] <drewinthehead>
http://yahoo.com/
- [13:48:38] <trov>
frickin' yeh :)
- [13:48:41] <drewinthehead>
mistook it for a pie
- [13:48:59] <pnhChris>
yum
- [13:49:26] <pnhChris>
now he's in hiding with an alias?
- [13:50:11] <drewinthehead>
yeah, sunnyvale is mobilising and he's prime suspect.
- [13:54:14] <trov>
don't blame me!
- [13:54:39] * trov is now known as trovster
- [13:55:36] <trovster>
Although, I wonder how long it's been like that.
- [14:00:39] <mfbot>
[[hlisting-proposal]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hlisting-proposal&diff=0&oldid=8357 * D4rr3ll * (+60) Examples in the Wild -
- [14:09:37] <drewinthehead>
fixed, sorta, trovster
- [14:11:14] <trovster>
Do I get a prize?
- [14:11:40] <qid>
that just redirects me to www.yahoo.com and it works fine
- [14:11:59] <drewinthehead>
yeah, i think that's probably a temporary fix to get it working
- [14:12:13] <trovster>
I think it's the better solution, than having both
- [14:12:28] <drewinthehead>
anyway, thanks for reporting it, someone's working on it now.
- [14:12:55] <qid>
on my website, I redirect www.domain.com to domain.com >_>
- [14:19:49] <drewinthehead>
yes, i think i'm going to start doing that too, qid
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- [14:20:03] <jibot>
cgriego is Chris Griego (-06:00) and a front-end architect with rd2inc.com
- [14:20:06] <trovster>
I redirect domain to www.domain.com :)
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- [14:41:05] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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amanuel is Amanuel, the social ambassador at http://otavo.com
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- [16:09:44] <mfbot>
[[hcalendar]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcalendar&diff=0&oldid=8358 * Dan Champion * (+181)
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- [16:39:41] <jibot>
dglazkov is Dimitri Glazkov (http://glazkov.com) and lives in Birmingham, AL, USA (-6:00 GMT)
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- [17:02:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
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- [17:07:11] <jibot>
kingryan is ryan king
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- [18:25:51] <keithalexander>
I'm reading: http://www.idealliance.org/papers/extreme/proceedings/html/2006/Quin01/EML2006Quin01.html
- [18:26:19] <keithalexander>
The author cites one of the advantages as being:
- [18:26:20] <keithalexander>
Standardised markup idioms also facilitate the sharing of code libraries to augment browser behaviour, the so-called unobtrusive JavaScript mentioned earlier.
- [18:26:34] <keithalexander>
[endquote]
- [18:27:48] <keithalexander>
I've not seen many examples of javascript libraries specifying a particular markup idiom - can anyone enlighten me?
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- [18:33:54] <bewest>
you haven't?
- [18:34:17] <bewest>
keithalexander: if you want a fancy example, the windows Live Clipboard would fit into that category
- [18:35:20] <keithalexander>
ah right. anything else come to mind?
- [18:36:07] <kingryan>
weird, that paper says:
- [18:36:25] <kingryan>
"In addition, the increased awareness that use of CSS [Chemical Style Sheets] can help reduce the bandwidth a Web site uses, ..."
- [18:36:44] <kingryan>
I'm not sure I wanna read the paper if the "expert in markup languages" doesn't know what CSS stands for
- [18:37:13] <keithalexander>
i assumed he was being ironic or something and i just didn't get the joke
- [18:37:23] <kingryan>
I don't think so
- [18:37:32] <keithalexander>
i still think that's the most likely assumption
- [18:37:39] <bewest>
keithalexander: other examples...
- [18:37:39] <bewest>
sure
- [18:37:45] <keithalexander>
why would anyone think C stood for chemical?
- [18:37:55] <keithalexander>
fire away bewest
- [18:38:03] <bewest>
keithalexander: heirarchical menues that use nested lists
- [18:38:29] <kingryan>
another misunderstanding from the paper: "XHTML is mostly a presentational language, used for rendering."
- [18:38:39] <bewest>
o-O
- [18:38:58] <keithalexander>
no, to be fair he says that it is both
- [18:39:09] <keithalexander>
and it is true that it is presentational
- [18:39:13] <jibot>
MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus and has a passion for fashion and is finally back in CA!
- [18:39:15] <bewest>
um
- [18:39:25] <bewest>
is that why presentational elements are deprecated?
- [18:39:37] <bewest>
maybe I misunderstand what is mean by presentational
- [18:39:40] <Phae>
chemical style sheets
- [18:39:45] <Phae>
heh
- [18:39:55] <keithalexander>
yes, I know we are moving away from that, but it still has a distinct presentational after taste
- [18:40:12] <keithalexander>
well, the usual webdev sense is font tags etc
- [18:40:28] <keithalexander>
but I think maybe he just means, for presenting a document
- [18:40:47] <keithalexander>
as opposed to a data storage format
- [18:41:53] <qid>
"The result of microformats is HTML documents that are peppered with additional information in an uncontrolled manner"
- [18:42:04] <Phae>
uncontrolled
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- [18:42:12] <Phae>
that's not in the slightest bit true
- [18:42:21] <kingryan>
keithalexander: you're talking about how people use the format, not the format itself
- [18:42:58] <keithalexander>
kingryan: xhtml? no, not talking about how people use it
- [18:43:00] <bewest>
right, just because Joe uses his car to deliver pizzas doesn't mean he bought a delivery car from a delivery car company.
- [18:43:19] <bewest>
it's still a honda civic at the end of the day
- [18:43:45] <bewest>
just because xhtml is often used to render a presentation of a document to a human doesn't mean that xhtml is presentational
- [18:44:19] <bewest>
gotta run
- [18:44:19] <Phae>
If browsers didn't have default stylesheets, I assume a plain XHTML document would have all the information looking the same.
- [18:44:28] <keithalexander>
depends what you mean by presentational I suppose
- [18:44:29] <qid>
"Microformats are decentralised, but also have no global identifiers, no equivalent to the namespace URI: name conflicts seem destined to occur with increasing frequency."
- [18:44:35] <bewest>
gotta run
- [18:44:40] <Phae>
ciao bear42
- [18:44:42] <Phae>
oops. bewest
- [18:44:45] <keithalexander>
see you bewest
- [18:45:38] <qid>
Phae: someone had a method to clear out the default stylesheet in a browser
- [18:46:11] <Phae>
But anyway. I was vaguely going towards the point that the presentational elements of even an "unstyled" page are set by the browser, not the XHTML, really.
- [18:46:20] <Phae>
Probably, qid
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- [18:48:04] <KevinMarks>
tantek has a 'clear all defaults' CSS
- [18:48:31] <tantek>
look for undohtml.css
- [18:48:37] <Phae>
:)
- [18:48:54] <KevinMarks>
not all browser have 'default stylesheets' as not all do CSS - (eg lynx, cellphone browsers etc)
- [18:48:57] <gsnedders>
tantek: I know this is rather off topic, but where does your surname come from?
- [18:49:00] <Phae>
True.
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- [18:50:07] <jibot>
trovster is a web developer from the UK who writes on http://www.trovster.com and helps with www.multipack.co.uk
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- [18:50:43] <kingryan>
gsnedders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantek_%C3%87elik
- [18:51:02] <kingryan>
"Tantek Çelik, of San Francisco, is a Computer scientist of Turkish-American descent and Chief Technologist at Technorati"
- [18:51:05] <kingryan>
:D
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- [18:51:30] <gsnedders>
kingryan: I have a habit of not assuming names come from where you're descended from :P
- [18:51:35] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit ()
- [18:51:39] <kingryan>
ah
- [18:51:45] <kingryan>
well, in this case it is
- [18:52:04] <gsnedders>
kingryan: there's several people at my school with Scandinavian names, who aren't Scandinavian.
- [18:52:30] <qid>
"There are surely some who would claim that if HTML documents that use microformats are the teenagers of Markup, namespaced microformats would represent their acne."
- [18:52:51] <qid>
I think this guy put more work into his metaphors than into actually researching the subject he wrote about
- [18:52:59] <Phae>
Yeah.
- [18:53:05] <kingryan>
gsnedders: that's true, esp. here in america where it's often tough to know where your family came from anyway
- [18:53:05] <trovster>
Good metaphor though :)
- [18:53:25] <Phae>
Who is the guy that wrote that?
- [18:53:32] <kingryan>
someone wanna write this article for the mf.org blog?
- [18:53:35] <Phae>
I didn't get the link.
- [18:53:43] <Phae>
What article?
- [18:53:50] <kingryan>
Phae: I dunno, he came by mf.org a long time ago with these ideas, and got the predictable rejection
- [18:53:53] <qid>
http://www.idealliance.org/papers/extreme/proceedings/html/2006/Quin01/EML2006Quin01.html
- [18:54:01] <Phae>
oh.
- [18:54:09] <gsnedders>
kingryan: Geoffrey is technically a German name, and Sneddon Scottish. I'm Scottish by birth and residence, and by decent through my grandfather, but otherwise I'm English by decent
- [18:54:11] <kingryan>
that's what qid's been quoting from
- [18:54:23] <Phae>
I assume hte [w3c] bit means he's on some working group
- [18:54:32] <Phae>
Yeah, I got that. Just hadn't read it yet.
- [18:54:38] <kingryan>
ryan is a scottish name, king an english one, but my family is mostly german
- [18:54:58] <kingryan>
which makes me an american :D
- [18:55:12] <gsnedders>
kingryan: I count myself as English :P
- [18:55:34] <qid>
he tries to poke all these bogus holes in microformats, then proceeds to define some goofy XML language with no spec or namespace or anything
- [18:55:39] * mlinksva (n=mlinksva@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/mlinksva) has joined #microformats
- [18:55:39] <jibot>
mlinksva is Mike Linksvayer and from Creative Commons
- [18:55:54] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) has joined #microformats
- [18:56:19] <Phae>
He's lead for the XML group, so of course he's plugging some random XML approach
- [18:56:32] <Phae>
but it'd be more useful to really answer his issues
- [18:56:54] <Phae>
Don't we have a wiki page or common concerns/arguments?
- [18:57:09] <qid>
we have several, I think
- [18:57:11] <Phae>
for*
- [18:57:14] <Phae>
:D well then
- [18:57:15] * musigny (n=gregoire@AAnnecy-157-1-20-218.w86-216.abo.wanadoo.fr) Quit (Client Quit)
- [18:57:23] <qid>
http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful for one, and it links to others
- [18:57:50] <kingryan>
perhaps his issues can be answered there?
- [18:58:10] <kingryan>
and perhaps someone wants to write up a blog post in response? (*hint, hint*)
- [18:58:14] * trel1023 (n=trel1023@cpe-066-057-014-057.nc.res.rr.com) has left #microformats
- [18:58:25] <keithalexander>
Does anyone understand: "Microformats help people to avoid using XML. They are at the same time subverting HTML. "
- [18:58:32] <Phae>
no
- [18:58:33] <Phae>
heh
- [18:58:47] <KevinMarks>
talking of extending metaphors: http://words.einsteinslock.com/scriptteaser/data-shoeology/
- [18:58:57] * Phae reads the article properly.
- [18:59:06] * Atamido wishes XML had been invented first so it would all be a non-issue.
- [19:00:19] <KevinMarks>
SGML was invented first
- [19:00:37] <keithalexander>
how can you subvert a markup language?
- [19:01:03] <KevinMarks>
'Chemical Style Sheets' ?
- [19:01:13] <keithalexander>
I guess <em class="no-emphasis"> would be subverting it
- [19:01:14] * bunnywabbit_ (n=bunny@adsl-84-227-49-55.adslplus.ch) Quit ()
- [19:01:27] <keithalexander>
maybe it was a typo?
- [19:01:30] <Phae>
Yeah, we've already noticed that KevinMarks.
- [19:01:53] <Phae>
I'm wondering if it's not a typo though
- [19:01:54] <qid>
I think the first half of that sentence is at least partially correct
- [19:02:06] * dardarsauce (n=dardarsa@38.99.12.65) has joined #microformats
- [19:02:20] <qid>
microformats help people avoid duplicating certain data in separate XML formats
- [19:03:11] <qid>
although the most popular microformats are based on non-XML formats
- [19:04:41] <KevinMarks>
well we have the 'XHTML is XML' rejoinder
- [19:04:41] <keithalexander>
what about his point about scalability?
- [19:04:41] <Phae>
His disadvantages section doesn't seem to actually say much of substance.
- [19:04:51] <Phae>
I was just reading that bit.
- [19:04:55] <KevinMarks>
well, he misunderstands the microformats processs
- [19:05:05] <KevinMarks>
he ignores the goal of convergence of schema
- [19:05:26] <KevinMarks>
by omitting namespaces, we force ourselves to converge
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- [19:05:59] <KevinMarks>
this sentence is entirely backwards:
- [19:06:11] <KevinMarks>
" In particular, and this is crucial to understanding the culture from which they arose, there is no need to perform formal analysis in advance: you can type a Web page into your favourite text editor and add attributes whenever you feel like it. This is a strength, in that it is immediate, something now in a world characterised by the attention span of a scrollbar."
- [19:06:27] <KevinMarks>
let me make that true by substitution
- [19:06:51] <KevinMarks>
In particular, and this is crucial to understanding the culture from which they arose, there is no need to perform formal analysis in advance: you can type a XML page into your favourite text editor and add elements and attributes whenever you feel like it.
- [19:07:02] <Phae>
heh
- [19:07:32] <kingryan>
someone write a blog post! :D
- [19:07:36] <Phae>
you do it!
- [19:07:43] <kingryan>
no, you!
- [19:07:46] <Phae>
:S
- [19:07:54] <KevinMarks>
He is confounding 'semantic use fo classes' with 'microformats'
- [19:07:54] <Phae>
I have to write a presentation still for barcamp this weekend :(
- [19:08:08] <Phae>
yeah
- [19:08:22] <qid>
you can certainly write an XML file or a website by just throwing in whatever elements and attributes you feel like
- [19:08:24] <Phae>
I know. He imagines that people will just willy-nilly make up microformats and expect them to be accepted
- [19:08:29] <qid>
it doesn't mean anyone else can understand it
- [19:08:33] <Phae>
yeah
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- [19:09:09] <qid>
hmmmm
- [19:09:37] * gsnedders is now known as not-gsnedders
- [19:09:45] <qid>
I wonder if you misread that, I think he was pointing out that microformats can be added to your existing data
- [19:10:53] <qid>
I think by "add attributes" he meant microformat attributes
- [19:11:18] <Phae>
I think there's a lot of things in that that are ambiguous
- [19:11:33] <Phae>
which makes it difficult to really evaluate
- [19:11:43] * not-gsnedders is now known as gsnedders
- [19:12:09] <Phae>
and there's subtle sprinklings of opinion everywhere, rather than factual evidence
- [19:14:00] <keithalexander>
does forgoing namespaces limit the practical number of microformats (in that if there were 100s, it would be hard to keep them straight enough in your head to converge them)? And is that be a bad thing or a good thing?
- [19:15:29] <qid>
hundreds of microformats is an anti-goal, iirc
- [19:16:11] <KevinMarks>
microformats are meant to be converged common cases
- [19:16:15] <qid>
http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful <-- some reasons why microformats avoid namespaces
- [19:16:19] <KevinMarks>
if you wnatarbitrary
- [19:16:35] <KevinMarks>
if you want arbitrary key/value pairs, use XOXO
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- [19:19:32] <keithalexander>
I don't have an axe to grind about namespaces, but I didn't find http://microformats.org/wiki/namespaces-considered-harmful all that convincing - too much assertions
- [19:20:15] <keithalexander>
not that I think they are necessary, but wasn't convinced of their harmfulness
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- [19:26:32] <jibot>
drewinthehead is the author of hKit and a developer for Yahoo! Europe
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- [19:38:41] <mfbot>
[[hcard]] http://microformats.org/wiki?title=hcard&diff=0&oldid=8359 * Tantek * (+114) marked up Thomas A Anderson details with hCard on Wikipedia
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- [19:47:27] <drewinthehead>
evenin' all
- [19:48:26] * tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net) Quit ()
- [19:52:47] <gsnedders>
drewinthehead: evenin'
- [19:53:35] <drewinthehead>
how goes?
- [19:54:44] <gsnedders>
drewinthehead: just singing along to music :P
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- [20:13:22] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [20:13:40] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
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- [20:29:04] <jibot>
gsnedders is a 14 year old idiot from Scotland and pretends to have a website at http://geoffers.uni.cc/
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- [20:57:53] <keithalexander>
That paper we were talking about before says something else I don't understand: # Do we pressure vendors and the W3C to extend CSS to reduce or eliminate the need to abuse existing XHTML elements? Following this route, it should be possible to reproduce Web browser behaviour exactly and entirely on any element, using CSS. Of course, this is already possible using XSLT.
- [20:58:06] <keithalexander>
[/endquote]
- [20:58:33] <kingryan>
I don't completely understand it either
- [20:58:48] <kingryan>
I think first of all, he's confusing @class and Chemical Style Sheets
- [20:58:57] <keithalexander>
lol
- [20:59:31] <kingryan>
then maybe he's suggesting that behaviors based on class names be built into browsers?
- [20:59:42] <keithalexander>
"pressure vendors and the W3C to extend CSS to reduce or eliminate the need to abuse existing XHTML elements"
- [20:59:42] <kingryan>
or maybe add new semantic elements?
- [21:00:00] <keithalexander>
that's not CSS that needs to be extended though
- [21:00:13] <keithalexander>
it would be xhtml
- [21:00:39] <kingryan>
yeah, that's my first comment there
- [21:01:01] <kingryan>
assuming that he's really talking about extending XHTML, CSS and the DOM...
- [21:01:37] <keithalexander>
I know that CSS limitations can necessitate extra divs and so on, but I don't think that's what he means - nor does it have anything to do with µformats
- [21:02:36] <keithalexander>
and the last part: "Following this route, it should be possible to reproduce Web browser behaviour exactly and entirely on any element, using CSS. Of course, this is already possible using XSLT."
- [21:02:55] <kingryan>
I'm lost there
- [21:02:57] <keithalexander>
isn't this already possible using CSS?
- [21:03:28] <keithalexander>
ah, I don't know what he means at all
- [21:03:32] <kingryan>
not behaviors
- [21:03:56] <kingryan>
maybe he wants to do "<span class='xhtml:input' />" ?
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- [21:04:05] <keithalexander>
eek
- [21:05:25] <keithalexander>
hard to see how that relates to µformats
- [21:05:40] <keithalexander>
(any of what he says there)
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- [21:12:57] <jibot>
ajturner is Andrew Turner, a simulation and geolocation nut who blogs at http://highearthorbit.com
- [21:15:53] <keithalexander>
a rather strange and at times patronising article: "Should the traditional markup community ignore the Webheads, or react? [...] The biggest question of all: do we try to help people who are not so far along the path, or do we stop and wait for them, or do we leave them behind? Or do we throw rocks at them from above and try to dislodge them?"
- [21:19:36] <keithalexander>
... as if "Webheads" are putting semantics into attributes just because they don't know how to do markup properly.
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- [21:25:39] <bewest>
keithalexander: we've recieved similar comments about "* considered harmful" wiki pages
- [21:25:59] <bewest>
keithalexander: I think the reasons are two fold:
- [21:26:20] <bewest>
1.) The articles are simply stubs. They are not well thought out cohesive propositions.
- [21:26:30] <keithalexander>
fair dos
- [21:26:57] <bewest>
2.) the phrase "considered harmful" is idiomatic, and some people are not understanding the idiom
- [21:28:04] <keithalexander>
irony eh?
- [21:28:36] <bewest>
hehe
- [21:28:37] <bewest>
yes
- [21:29:17] <bewest>
the idiom evidently stems from Djikstra's article on "Goto considered harmful"
- [21:31:19] <bewest>
I once saw goto used effectively
- [21:31:27] <bewest>
and I recently saw goto used incredibly poorly
- [21:31:54] <bewest>
"considered harmful" means that the technique in question isn't considered best practice
- [21:32:22] <bewest>
and in fact may or may not be detrimental to furthering available techniques
- [21:32:51] <bewest>
certainly when used carelessly (as most things are done) is definitely detrimental
- [21:32:58] <kingryan>
keithalexander: its also noteable that 'Webheads' have been at it for quite awhile longer than the "traditional markup community"
- [21:33:21] <bewest>
yeah, the term webhead in opposition to "traditional markup community" is very confusing to me
- [21:33:29] <bewest>
I don't know what either mean
- [21:33:54] <hober>
I imagine the opposition is "greybeard SGML people" v. "people whose first markup language was some HTML flavor"
- [21:34:07] <keithalexander>
that's what I figured
- [21:34:21] <Phae>
As I said earlier, the spin on the article is to use derogatory descriptive titles for those things he does not like or agree with
- [21:34:21] <keithalexander>
I imagined sandals as well
- [21:34:23] <Phae>
which don't help.
- [21:34:25] <kingryan>
but, hober, in reality, most of his imagined "traditional community" are XMLHeads
- [21:34:33] <Phae>
they just impress his opinions on the reader
- [21:35:07] <keithalexander>
I can't even figure out what many of his views are
- [21:35:30] <Phae>
It vaguely goes "XML=yay!MFs=evil" I think.
- [21:37:21] <keithalexander>
ah, I see what he means about 'extending' CSS. he wants colons for namespaces
- [21:38:06] <keithalexander>
(inside class values)
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- [21:39:18] <jibot>
danja is Danny Ayers, http://dannyayers.com
- [21:42:23] <keithalexander>
talking of XML and µfs, anyone know of microformats in other markup languages, beyond html? any articles you could point me to?
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- [21:46:06] <hober>
kingryan: right
- [21:46:33] <kingryan>
he's trying to make XMLHeads look like the wise grownups
- [21:46:40] <kingryan>
and WebHeads like teenagers
- [21:46:58] <kingryan>
which is wrong on many levels
- [21:47:13] * Phae nods.
- [21:47:38] <kingryan>
(I guess I should enumerate those levels)
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- [21:49:16] <jibot>
ryanlowe is Ryan Lowe, http://www.fanconcert.com
- [21:49:53] <kingryan>
HTML is older than XML, HTML has more mature deployments, HTML is better understood and WebHeads re not ignorant of XML (in fact, we may know it too well)
- [21:50:15] * kingryan just realized that "HTML has more mature deployments" can be parsed 2 ways and they're both correct
- [21:51:22] <hober>
heh
- [21:51:23] <Phae>
How's that blog entry going? ;)
- [21:51:58] <kingryan>
I dunno Phae, you tell me :D
- [21:52:13] <Phae>
Ask me after the weekend.
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- [22:33:04] <danja>
keithalexander, "microformats in other markup languages"
- [22:33:29] <danja>
good question
- [22:34:04] <danja>
I don't know of any, and can't actually imagine any
- [22:34:54] <danja>
without what (X)HTML has already, what would be the motivation?
- [22:35:41] <danja>
(has = intergalactic deployment)
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- [22:41:06] <deusx>
blogging aliens?
- [22:46:43] <dardarsauce>
aliens prefer firefox
- [22:46:55] <dardarsauce>
we know that much
- [22:46:58] <dardarsauce>
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/firefox_crop_circle/
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- [22:49:41] <Molly>
hi all
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- [22:50:56] <dardarsauce>
hi
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- [22:56:03] <Phae>
doh
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- [23:23:33] <keithale1ander>
hi danja: sorry, didn't hear the 'someone said your name' alert
- [23:24:41] <keithale1ander>
re: µf in other languages, I am thinking of TEI myself
- [23:25:00] <danja>
heh, this machine does a really annoying beepy noise, second only to "cat about to vomit"
- [23:25:24] <danja>
TEI, TEI...sure I know that - remind me?
- [23:25:41] <keithale1ander>
Text Encoding Initiative
- [23:26:01] <danja>
ah, I know of (only)
- [23:26:02] <jibot>
MacDome is a WebKit hacker emeritus and has a passion for fashion and is finally back in CA!
- [23:26:15] <keithale1ander>
used generally most commonly in humanities academia
- [23:26:58] <danja>
is it sgmlish markup?
- [23:27:14] <keithale1ander>
it used to be, but is XML now
- [23:29:50] <keithale1ander>
my take on microformats (one aspect at least) is that HTML and TEI are both necessarily open ended
- [23:30:50] <deusx>
Oh man, windup to cat vomit is an alert that'll get me running from any room in the house
- [23:31:05] <keithale1ander>
and offer authors the possibility to tighten up the semantics with attribute values
- [23:33:09] <keithale1ander>
I see microformats as being neat because it doesn't get in the way of authorial freedom, but offers optional mini standards and interoperability for those who want it
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- [23:41:54] <jibot>
tantek is Tantek <http://tantek.com> and works on Technorati and develops microformats <http://microformats.org>
- [23:42:12] * ChanServ sets mode +o tantek
- [23:45:01] <bewest>
deusx: I tend to get paralyzed... you want to help the cat, but you don't want to get near it... you just hope it goes outside!
- [23:45:11] <bewest>
so you open a door and kind of gently shoo it
- [23:45:26] <deusx>
Eh, we have indoor cats, so I rush at them and hold them over a paper towel :)
- [23:45:33] <bewest>
oh yeah
- [23:45:37] <bewest>
the paper towel placement
- [23:45:42] <bewest>
put a paper towel down
- [23:45:44] <bewest>
hope they use it
- [23:45:54] * pnhChris checks what channel he's in
- [23:45:55] <bewest>
they typically get it half on - half off whatever you were hoping for
- [23:46:06] <bewest>
pnhChris: cat vomit channel
- [23:46:10] <bewest>
pnhChris: #catvomit
- [23:46:17] <pnhChris>
good.. then i'm in the right place
- [23:46:34] <deusx>
microvomits
- [23:46:41] <bewest>
right now we're talking about what you do when the cat is winding up to vomit
- [23:49:01] * drewinthehead (n=mclellan@chauchcr.gotadsl.co.uk) Quit ()
- [23:59:01] * kingryan (n=kingryan@dsl092-180-250.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) Quit ()
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